1
00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342
Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

2
00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:16,782
Speaker 2: Mama and Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

3
00:00:16,822 --> 00:00:26,582
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome

4
00:00:26,662 --> 00:00:30,382
Speaker 2: to our limited series Parenting Out Loud. I am Jesse Stevens,

5
00:00:30,462 --> 00:00:33,261
Speaker 2: and I am joined by Merely Lester. You can say hello.

6
00:00:33,742 --> 00:00:37,222
Speaker 1: You're alloud to say hello, Hope, Jesse, how are you good?

7
00:00:37,781 --> 00:00:40,221
Speaker 2: And we're here to talk about some of the stories

8
00:00:40,222 --> 00:00:43,462
Speaker 2: that dominated the week, because if parents are thinking about it,

9
00:00:43,502 --> 00:00:47,422
Speaker 2: we're talking about it. And today we also have a

10
00:00:47,542 --> 00:00:50,742
Speaker 2: very special third co host. It is Mom and MIA's

11
00:00:50,742 --> 00:00:53,902
Speaker 2: deputy editor. Welcome to Stacey Hicks.

12
00:00:53,982 --> 00:00:56,542
Speaker 1: Hello, Helloks for scooching over for hell me.

13
00:00:56,902 --> 00:00:58,342
Speaker 2: Please tell us a bit about yourself.

14
00:00:58,382 --> 00:01:01,062
Speaker 1: This question is my nightmare. Thank you so much for us.

15
00:01:01,142 --> 00:01:03,302
Speaker 2: That is so fine. I wanted to leave it as

16
00:01:03,342 --> 00:01:04,741
Speaker 2: open ended as possible so that.

17
00:01:04,702 --> 00:01:06,902
Speaker 3: You'd lose slopover. Yes, I feel like all I do

18
00:01:06,982 --> 00:01:09,182
Speaker 3: is scroll on TikTok in bed, so that is not

19
00:01:09,262 --> 00:01:12,901
Speaker 3: very I'm the writer of many words on Muma Mia

20
00:01:12,982 --> 00:01:14,982
Speaker 3: that you might have seen on the website. I'm the

21
00:01:15,062 --> 00:01:19,902
Speaker 3: drinker of copious amounts of tea and margaritas, which tea

22
00:01:19,942 --> 00:01:24,142
Speaker 3: and spicy irregular marks. Oh English breakfast tea, milk, sugar,

23
00:01:24,222 --> 00:01:26,342
Speaker 3: depending on the time of day. You're not a Barbarian

24
00:01:26,502 --> 00:01:27,942
Speaker 3: and I'm a regular mar girl.

25
00:01:28,262 --> 00:01:28,782
Speaker 1: Very basic.

26
00:01:29,622 --> 00:01:34,182
Speaker 3: You know I've started putting jalapeno in my soblank. Oh yes,

27
00:01:34,502 --> 00:01:36,902
Speaker 3: it's true. It's happening, say b.

28
00:01:37,262 --> 00:01:41,222
Speaker 2: An early recommendation from Amelia today And Stacey, do you.

29
00:01:41,182 --> 00:01:42,222
Speaker 1: Have a kid? I do?

30
00:01:43,582 --> 00:01:45,542
Speaker 3: It would be a bit weird if I didn't throwing

31
00:01:45,542 --> 00:01:48,462
Speaker 3: my opinions around. I am one and done so I've

32
00:01:48,502 --> 00:01:51,262
Speaker 3: had one child. I got it right, I'm stopping so clever,

33
00:01:51,382 --> 00:01:53,502
Speaker 3: We're done, well done. I have affected the process.

34
00:01:53,742 --> 00:01:53,982
Speaker 1: You went.

35
00:01:54,102 --> 00:01:55,382
Speaker 3: This one is ten out of ten.

36
00:01:55,662 --> 00:01:57,062
Speaker 2: Let's not tempt fake.

37
00:01:57,102 --> 00:02:00,022
Speaker 1: Or let's just never do that roller coaster again? Did

38
00:02:00,022 --> 00:02:01,142
Speaker 1: you have a way you want to look at it?

39
00:02:01,302 --> 00:02:03,622
Speaker 1: How old is little she is four years old? I

40
00:02:03,622 --> 00:02:04,702
Speaker 1: have a four year old little girl.

41
00:02:04,862 --> 00:02:09,501
Speaker 2: On today's show do Kids Ruin Friendships? We discussed two

42
00:02:09,662 --> 00:02:12,501
Speaker 2: fiery essays about what happens to friendship in the wake

43
00:02:12,542 --> 00:02:17,582
Speaker 2: of children and the return of the landline signals nostalgia

44
00:02:17,702 --> 00:02:20,862
Speaker 2: for childhood we might never be able to recreate. So

45
00:02:20,942 --> 00:02:23,822
Speaker 2: what is kid rotting and could it be the answer?

46
00:02:24,342 --> 00:02:28,582
Speaker 2: Plus Children's YouTube star Miss Rachel express support for the

47
00:02:28,662 --> 00:02:31,262
Speaker 2: children of Gaza and now she's had to disable comments

48
00:02:31,262 --> 00:02:34,862
Speaker 2: on Instagram and YouTube. We explain what happened and the

49
00:02:34,862 --> 00:02:40,582
Speaker 2: parasocial relationships we have with kids entertainers. But first, in

50
00:02:40,622 --> 00:02:43,022
Speaker 2: case you missed it, a number of unnamed women have

51
00:02:43,102 --> 00:02:45,142
Speaker 2: confessed to making up they have kids in order to

52
00:02:45,142 --> 00:02:48,262
Speaker 2: get flexibility at work. And I want your initial reactions now, please.

53
00:02:48,622 --> 00:02:52,621
Speaker 3: I think it's genius, really yeah, because before I had kids,

54
00:02:52,742 --> 00:02:55,742
Speaker 3: I would always see these women leaving work early to

55
00:02:55,822 --> 00:02:58,502
Speaker 3: go and pick up so called children from so called school,

56
00:02:58,742 --> 00:03:03,062
Speaker 3: and they would be consumed with anger and jealousy. How

57
00:03:03,102 --> 00:03:07,422
Speaker 3: about you, Stacy equally think it's genius. But they have

58
00:03:07,502 --> 00:03:11,102
Speaker 3: forgotten something very important that comes along with leaving early.

59
00:03:11,502 --> 00:03:13,942
Speaker 3: So once you have a child and you have to

60
00:03:14,022 --> 00:03:16,582
Speaker 3: duck out an hour early, they're not thinking about the

61
00:03:16,582 --> 00:03:19,222
Speaker 3: fact that you then make up for that tenfold afterwards to.

62
00:03:19,222 --> 00:03:19,862
Speaker 1: Prove that you are ways.

63
00:03:19,902 --> 00:03:22,502
Speaker 3: We're sending a lot of like sort of overly diligent

64
00:03:22,582 --> 00:03:24,422
Speaker 3: emails to your boss at nine pm.

65
00:03:24,542 --> 00:03:27,662
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's the part I resent. So one woman

66
00:03:27,702 --> 00:03:30,422
Speaker 2: told MoMA Maya that she lied to her boss with

67
00:03:30,502 --> 00:03:33,221
Speaker 2: a story about her daughter experiencing a health emergency and

68
00:03:33,262 --> 00:03:35,662
Speaker 2: she needed to leave. In reality, it was her cat

69
00:03:35,942 --> 00:03:38,502
Speaker 2: and it really was an emergency. And I guess that

70
00:03:38,542 --> 00:03:41,742
Speaker 2: all depends on your definition of child exactly. That definition

71
00:03:41,782 --> 00:03:45,182
Speaker 2: includes male cat doesn't for me. But I'm slightly horrified

72
00:03:45,782 --> 00:03:48,422
Speaker 2: by this story. Even though I know there's lots of research,

73
00:03:49,742 --> 00:03:53,382
Speaker 2: a health emergency of a child is really serious. It's

74
00:03:53,382 --> 00:03:55,622
Speaker 2: really serious and scary for parent. And that is not

75
00:03:55,662 --> 00:03:59,222
Speaker 2: to undermine the horror of having a sick cat. But

76
00:03:59,262 --> 00:04:02,542
Speaker 2: your workplace should respect a sick cat. You should be

77
00:04:02,582 --> 00:04:05,702
Speaker 2: able to acknowledge I've got a sick cat. I need

78
00:04:05,742 --> 00:04:08,982
Speaker 2: to leave. There's cararas leave that exists. But I think

79
00:04:09,022 --> 00:04:12,222
Speaker 2: to s and I saw some of this research and

80
00:04:12,262 --> 00:04:15,502
Speaker 2: some of the rhetoric around this that said women, particularly

81
00:04:15,742 --> 00:04:20,142
Speaker 2: without kids, pick up the slack of working mothers. And

82
00:04:20,222 --> 00:04:23,662
Speaker 2: I resent that so deeply because I know about you too.

83
00:04:23,741 --> 00:04:26,022
Speaker 2: But are we seeing much slack from working mothers.

84
00:04:26,941 --> 00:04:29,181
Speaker 3: Well, I'm not going to confess to it here yet.

85
00:04:29,902 --> 00:04:35,782
Speaker 3: I'm never slacking. No, we're definitely not slacking. But I

86
00:04:35,861 --> 00:04:38,422
Speaker 3: do think that we take it more seriously when it's

87
00:04:38,421 --> 00:04:41,621
Speaker 3: a kid. Like if someone's kid had an emergency, I

88
00:04:41,621 --> 00:04:43,741
Speaker 3: probably would send them a message that night and say,

89
00:04:43,861 --> 00:04:44,861
Speaker 3: hope Paul is okay.

90
00:04:45,262 --> 00:04:48,422
Speaker 1: If it was a cat, I would not, And I think.

91
00:04:48,222 --> 00:04:49,701
Speaker 2: That that's the right reaction.

92
00:04:50,222 --> 00:04:52,101
Speaker 1: Good good, I'm allergic to cats.

93
00:04:52,101 --> 00:04:56,261
Speaker 3: In my defense, I cannot do kids ruin friendships. That's

94
00:04:56,262 --> 00:04:59,101
Speaker 3: the real reason I barge my way into the studio today.

95
00:04:59,301 --> 00:05:00,341
Speaker 1: You're lonely and desperate.

96
00:05:00,421 --> 00:05:02,861
Speaker 3: Yes, I needed to talk about it with my favorite

97
00:05:02,902 --> 00:05:05,741
Speaker 3: women because I read an article on this very topic

98
00:05:05,741 --> 00:05:08,421
Speaker 3: and I cannot stop thinking about it. So in a

99
00:05:08,421 --> 00:05:11,541
Speaker 3: substack called Impers Suit of Clean Countertops, which is a

100
00:05:11,541 --> 00:05:14,781
Speaker 3: great name by Sarah Peterson, she spoke about how after

101
00:05:14,821 --> 00:05:17,702
Speaker 3: she gave birth, trying to care about anything other than

102
00:05:17,702 --> 00:05:20,782
Speaker 3: her baby's Pooh color and sleep schedule was akin to

103
00:05:20,821 --> 00:05:24,421
Speaker 3: having phantom limb syndrome. So she said she tried to

104
00:05:24,462 --> 00:05:27,301
Speaker 3: care but just didn't really, So instead of wanting to

105
00:05:27,301 --> 00:05:29,861
Speaker 3: do these gossip sessions with her child free friends, she

106
00:05:29,981 --> 00:05:33,101
Speaker 3: was craving more time with the mothers who were experiencing

107
00:05:33,101 --> 00:05:36,181
Speaker 3: the same thing as her. And the same sentiment was

108
00:05:36,181 --> 00:05:38,342
Speaker 3: echoed in a piece in the cut where the writer

109
00:05:38,541 --> 00:05:43,382
Speaker 3: Alison P. Davis called children tiny little detonators, which they

110
00:05:43,501 --> 00:05:46,861
Speaker 3: very much are saying nothing represents a threat to friendship

111
00:05:46,941 --> 00:05:50,502
Speaker 3: more than parenthood. So does motherhood actually ruin our friendships

112
00:05:50,621 --> 00:05:53,341
Speaker 3: or just change the DNA of them a little bit? Well,

113
00:05:53,381 --> 00:05:56,062
Speaker 3: in my experience, they do realin friendships a little bit.

114
00:05:56,301 --> 00:05:58,382
Speaker 3: I've been on both sides of this equation. I had

115
00:05:58,462 --> 00:06:02,462
Speaker 3: children fairly laid in the piece, and before I had them,

116
00:06:02,582 --> 00:06:05,062
Speaker 3: I felt a lot of rage. I guess this is

117
00:06:05,101 --> 00:06:07,742
Speaker 3: a thread through my remarks today. I've felt a lot

118
00:06:07,782 --> 00:06:10,742
Speaker 3: of ragewards friends who had kids before I did. I

119
00:06:10,821 --> 00:06:13,582
Speaker 3: could tell that they were not inviting me to birthday parties,

120
00:06:13,582 --> 00:06:15,262
Speaker 3: which I didn't want to go to, but nonetheless one

121
00:06:15,301 --> 00:06:17,342
Speaker 3: of the invitation for I could tell that they were

122
00:06:17,381 --> 00:06:20,861
Speaker 3: getting together on side group chats to talk about nappies

123
00:06:20,941 --> 00:06:24,101
Speaker 3: and toilet training and things I didn't understand, and I

124
00:06:24,142 --> 00:06:26,941
Speaker 3: desperately wanted to be involved, and I couldn't understand why

125
00:06:26,941 --> 00:06:29,622
Speaker 3: they weren't involving me. Now that I'm on the other

126
00:06:29,702 --> 00:06:32,342
Speaker 3: side of that equation, I've realized that a big time

127
00:06:32,421 --> 00:06:35,541
Speaker 3: suck once you have children is that you do have

128
00:06:35,662 --> 00:06:39,061
Speaker 3: to make friends, not just because you need the fellow

129
00:06:39,101 --> 00:06:41,462
Speaker 3: feeling and the sympathy of having friends who will also

130
00:06:41,582 --> 00:06:44,462
Speaker 3: have kids, but also we live in such an isolated

131
00:06:44,501 --> 00:06:46,901
Speaker 3: society now, and parenting is just put on to the

132
00:06:46,981 --> 00:06:50,421
Speaker 3: parents rather than the community. And I need mum friends

133
00:06:50,421 --> 00:06:52,541
Speaker 3: who I can lean on if I can't pick the

134
00:06:52,621 --> 00:06:54,822
Speaker 3: kid up from school at the right time, or if

135
00:06:54,821 --> 00:06:57,942
Speaker 3: I have a really important question about something that Google

136
00:06:58,022 --> 00:06:59,782
Speaker 3: is not going to answer for me without a sort

137
00:06:59,782 --> 00:07:03,582
Speaker 3: of anxiety spiral. I need those friends who I can

138
00:07:03,702 --> 00:07:06,621
Speaker 3: call on and lean on in moments of crisis with

139
00:07:06,662 --> 00:07:09,142
Speaker 3: my kids. So now I guess I understand given that

140
00:07:09,181 --> 00:07:12,022
Speaker 3: time is limited once you do have kids, you do

141
00:07:12,222 --> 00:07:14,622
Speaker 3: have to reserve a certain amount of time for making

142
00:07:14,702 --> 00:07:15,622
Speaker 3: those new friends.

143
00:07:15,862 --> 00:07:18,462
Speaker 2: So do you think that it's just about the equation

144
00:07:18,742 --> 00:07:22,261
Speaker 2: that we all have finite time and energy. Whether it's

145
00:07:22,342 --> 00:07:25,381
Speaker 2: you've got one child or you've got four children, you

146
00:07:25,422 --> 00:07:30,261
Speaker 2: suddenly have this person that needs all of your attention

147
00:07:30,381 --> 00:07:32,782
Speaker 2: or as much as you can give them, and then

148
00:07:32,862 --> 00:07:35,382
Speaker 2: you've got to make parent friends, which is true, whether

149
00:07:35,422 --> 00:07:38,381
Speaker 2: it's starting with mother's group and then at school and whatever.

150
00:07:39,302 --> 00:07:41,141
Speaker 2: Is it just that Is it just that there's not

151
00:07:41,302 --> 00:07:43,221
Speaker 2: as much time, or do you think that it's also

152
00:07:43,262 --> 00:07:45,022
Speaker 2: that you don't relate in the same way.

153
00:07:45,022 --> 00:07:48,141
Speaker 3: Stacy, Have you lost friends since you had your shop.

154
00:07:48,262 --> 00:07:49,302
Speaker 1: I think mine.

155
00:07:49,422 --> 00:07:51,982
Speaker 3: I didn't lose friends completely, but I think mine went

156
00:07:52,022 --> 00:07:55,382
Speaker 3: into a state of flux. So you added so many

157
00:07:55,381 --> 00:07:58,781
Speaker 3: more people in that it just felt like you couldn't

158
00:07:58,902 --> 00:08:01,502
Speaker 3: give time to the ones that were already there. And

159
00:08:01,582 --> 00:08:03,901
Speaker 3: I also think, as you said before, once I was

160
00:08:03,902 --> 00:08:06,022
Speaker 3: on the other side, I kind of went on this

161
00:08:06,062 --> 00:08:08,302
Speaker 3: apology tour with all of my friends that had had

162
00:08:08,381 --> 00:08:11,182
Speaker 3: children before me say I get it now, like I

163
00:08:11,182 --> 00:08:12,022
Speaker 3: get why you did this.

164
00:08:12,102 --> 00:08:12,902
Speaker 1: I get why you.

165
00:08:12,941 --> 00:08:16,022
Speaker 3: Retreated from me because I wasn't supporting you in the

166
00:08:16,062 --> 00:08:18,102
Speaker 3: way that I now need from you.

167
00:08:18,022 --> 00:08:21,381
Speaker 2: Which you can't. I'm sorry, but you just simply can't understand.

168
00:08:21,462 --> 00:08:23,262
Speaker 3: And all my friends were very gracious in that way

169
00:08:23,302 --> 00:08:25,222
Speaker 3: and saying you just didn't get it. You didn't know

170
00:08:25,302 --> 00:08:27,342
Speaker 3: that showing up with a teddy bear was not very

171
00:08:27,502 --> 00:08:29,862
Speaker 3: useful to me, and that it would have been better

172
00:08:29,982 --> 00:08:32,702
Speaker 3: if you'd stacked the dishwasher and not sat on my

173
00:08:32,782 --> 00:08:35,262
Speaker 3: lounge with me for two hours. I have literally never

174
00:08:35,342 --> 00:08:37,822
Speaker 3: stacked a friend's dishwasher. I need to go on this

175
00:08:37,902 --> 00:08:38,661
Speaker 3: apology to it.

176
00:08:38,742 --> 00:08:39,382
Speaker 1: I do well.

177
00:08:39,381 --> 00:08:41,782
Speaker 3: Once I did that, I've been a great mum friend

178
00:08:41,822 --> 00:08:44,022
Speaker 3: to all my friends that have come after me with children,

179
00:08:44,302 --> 00:08:47,102
Speaker 3: but the ones before, thank god, they were kind about it.

180
00:08:47,142 --> 00:08:50,302
Speaker 3: But I think it's because that happens with every single friend.

181
00:08:50,302 --> 00:08:52,662
Speaker 3: You're in a line of the order, and you've got

182
00:08:52,702 --> 00:08:55,182
Speaker 3: to pay it forward to the ones behind you. See.

183
00:08:55,222 --> 00:08:58,582
Speaker 2: I kind of reject this. I don't think that kids

184
00:08:58,702 --> 00:09:02,502
Speaker 2: ruined friendships, and I think accepting that can make us

185
00:09:02,502 --> 00:09:04,582
Speaker 2: all a bit lazy. It can make the people who

186
00:09:04,702 --> 00:09:06,302
Speaker 2: have either chosen not to have kids or don't have

187
00:09:06,302 --> 00:09:08,062
Speaker 2: them yet think they don't want to hang out with me.

188
00:09:08,142 --> 00:09:09,782
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of assumptions going back both

189
00:09:09,782 --> 00:09:12,982
Speaker 2: ways that aren't necessarily true. Because when I was in

190
00:09:13,022 --> 00:09:16,982
Speaker 2: my twenties and my friend wanted to go clubbing, I

191
00:09:17,182 --> 00:09:19,662
Speaker 2: most of the time didn't want to go clubbing, but

192
00:09:19,742 --> 00:09:22,582
Speaker 2: I went clubbing because I was like, I just want

193
00:09:22,582 --> 00:09:24,902
Speaker 2: to hang out with you wherever you are. I would

194
00:09:24,942 --> 00:09:28,062
Speaker 2: go and watch their basketball, they'd come watch my netball.

195
00:09:28,102 --> 00:09:30,822
Speaker 2: We went through a stage where we take turns going

196
00:09:30,902 --> 00:09:32,742
Speaker 2: and picking each other up just because we just got

197
00:09:32,742 --> 00:09:36,182
Speaker 2: our license right. And so it's never about what you're

198
00:09:36,222 --> 00:09:39,381
Speaker 2: actually doing. It's more about the time you're spending together.

199
00:09:39,462 --> 00:09:41,702
Speaker 2: And in both of these articles, they were sort of saying,

200
00:09:42,062 --> 00:09:44,222
Speaker 2: if I don't have kids. I don't want to spend

201
00:09:44,222 --> 00:09:45,862
Speaker 2: time in a park I don't want to spend time

202
00:09:45,902 --> 00:09:49,062
Speaker 2: at your house with Louie on in the background. And

203
00:09:49,182 --> 00:09:52,062
Speaker 2: I kind of reject that. I think that if you

204
00:09:52,102 --> 00:09:55,302
Speaker 2: want to spend time with someone, then you do it

205
00:09:55,422 --> 00:09:59,342
Speaker 2: on each of your terms to varying degrees, and you

206
00:09:59,382 --> 00:10:01,782
Speaker 2: can try and maintain those friendships. But it's give and take.

207
00:10:01,822 --> 00:10:03,942
Speaker 2: I think there's something quite selfish about thinking, well, I

208
00:10:03,982 --> 00:10:05,622
Speaker 2: don't want to spend my Saturday in a parker at

209
00:10:05,622 --> 00:10:08,462
Speaker 2: a kid's birthday party. Like, if you want to sustain

210
00:10:08,502 --> 00:10:11,142
Speaker 2: the friendship, then there's got a baby given tew.

211
00:10:11,222 --> 00:10:13,822
Speaker 3: What's the give and take on the part of the

212
00:10:13,862 --> 00:10:16,422
Speaker 3: person who has kids in this equation. What are they

213
00:10:16,502 --> 00:10:17,302
Speaker 3: being asked to do.

214
00:10:17,502 --> 00:10:20,542
Speaker 2: I was having this conversation with Maya on out Loud recently,

215
00:10:20,622 --> 00:10:23,062
Speaker 2: and she said, get a babysitter and hang out at night.

216
00:10:23,102 --> 00:10:25,261
Speaker 2: And you know what, do that once a month if

217
00:10:25,262 --> 00:10:26,622
Speaker 2: you can, if you can afford it. And I know

218
00:10:26,662 --> 00:10:28,902
Speaker 2: that it's harder for some people than others. It's about

219
00:10:28,902 --> 00:10:32,542
Speaker 2: how much support you have. But if you can, yeah,

220
00:10:32,662 --> 00:10:34,662
Speaker 2: have that in the diary a month in advance and

221
00:10:34,702 --> 00:10:38,102
Speaker 2: go all right, let's hang out. But still I think

222
00:10:38,142 --> 00:10:40,902
Speaker 2: that the friends who don't have kids also have to

223
00:10:40,902 --> 00:10:41,942
Speaker 2: compromise a little bit.

224
00:10:42,302 --> 00:10:45,582
Speaker 3: See, I really disagree with you, Jesse. The last thing

225
00:10:45,822 --> 00:10:48,462
Speaker 3: I want to do is say to a friend of

226
00:10:48,502 --> 00:10:51,942
Speaker 3: mine who doesn't have children, Mina's at the playground. We

227
00:10:51,982 --> 00:10:57,901
Speaker 3: will have a half hearted, completely disjointed, ultimately unsatisfactory conversation

228
00:10:58,022 --> 00:11:00,222
Speaker 3: while I ensure that my child doesn't break his or

229
00:11:00,222 --> 00:11:02,502
Speaker 3: her neck. Who does that benefit? All right?

230
00:11:02,582 --> 00:11:04,382
Speaker 2: So I have a theory about why we feel differently

231
00:11:04,422 --> 00:11:07,102
Speaker 2: about this, which was in the cut article. There is

232
00:11:07,222 --> 00:11:11,222
Speaker 2: research to suggest that something happened around the age of three.

233
00:11:11,462 --> 00:11:14,902
Speaker 2: The Journal of Demographic Research said that that's when from

234
00:11:14,942 --> 00:11:16,542
Speaker 2: the age of three is when kids are the most

235
00:11:16,542 --> 00:11:19,222
Speaker 2: demanding of the parents' time and energy. I currently have

236
00:11:19,262 --> 00:11:23,582
Speaker 2: a two year old. I wonder if I'm still in this.

237
00:11:24,182 --> 00:11:27,382
Speaker 2: She's started talking probably like what six months a year ago,

238
00:11:27,422 --> 00:11:29,902
Speaker 2: like properly talking. But in that first year you.

239
00:11:29,862 --> 00:11:31,342
Speaker 1: Can put the baby in the pram and walk the

240
00:11:31,382 --> 00:11:32,302
Speaker 1: dog right.

241
00:11:31,822 --> 00:11:34,342
Speaker 2: Right, So there's still an element of socializing that's possible

242
00:11:34,382 --> 00:11:37,302
Speaker 2: there even now push her on the swing. I was

243
00:11:37,342 --> 00:11:39,382
Speaker 2: hanging out with someone recently who had a five and

244
00:11:39,382 --> 00:11:42,582
Speaker 2: a seven year old no, no, because it's the pulling

245
00:11:42,622 --> 00:11:43,622
Speaker 2: of the skirt and going my.

246
00:11:43,582 --> 00:11:46,782
Speaker 3: Mom discussion of the Minecraft movie.

247
00:11:47,982 --> 00:11:51,381
Speaker 2: Which like, your friend as lovely as they are, your

248
00:11:51,462 --> 00:11:53,822
Speaker 2: kids boring as shit? Yeah, like they are boring a

249
00:11:53,902 --> 00:11:55,502
Speaker 2: shit and you know that, but you love them.

250
00:11:55,582 --> 00:11:58,462
Speaker 3: And whether you are boring at the start, you are

251
00:11:58,542 --> 00:12:01,502
Speaker 3: so boring once you have a kid, So actually they're

252
00:12:01,502 --> 00:12:03,502
Speaker 3: giving up a lot to spend time with you from

253
00:12:03,542 --> 00:12:06,422
Speaker 3: the start. Like I remember with my newborn talking to

254
00:12:06,462 --> 00:12:09,342
Speaker 3: my friend at nauseum about the tog ratings of sleeping

255
00:12:09,942 --> 00:12:12,742
Speaker 3: and worrying that my daughter wasn't warm enough at night.

256
00:12:12,822 --> 00:12:13,702
Speaker 1: It's so dull.

257
00:12:13,822 --> 00:12:16,102
Speaker 2: But you know what, my friends who don't have kids

258
00:12:16,142 --> 00:12:17,462
Speaker 2: can also be very boring.

259
00:12:17,622 --> 00:12:17,862
Speaker 3: True.

260
00:12:17,942 --> 00:12:19,742
Speaker 2: I have a friend at the moment who is doing

261
00:12:19,822 --> 00:12:24,182
Speaker 2: a fitness challenge. Holy boring the stuff I've heard about,

262
00:12:24,262 --> 00:12:27,142
Speaker 2: and I follow up, so he talks about his fitness challenge.

263
00:12:27,422 --> 00:12:29,782
Speaker 2: I talk about Luna's sleep and how much sleep I

264
00:12:29,822 --> 00:12:30,422
Speaker 2: got last night.

265
00:12:30,502 --> 00:12:31,262
Speaker 3: We're both bored.

266
00:12:31,542 --> 00:12:33,222
Speaker 2: Isn't friendship just shared boreder?

267
00:12:33,382 --> 00:12:36,622
Speaker 3: Look, my main topic of conversation with people right now

268
00:12:36,662 --> 00:12:38,702
Speaker 3: is the fact that I love mouth tape and I

269
00:12:38,742 --> 00:12:41,902
Speaker 3: can see the light draining from their eyes when I

270
00:12:41,942 --> 00:12:43,622
Speaker 3: talked to them about this. Just last night, I had

271
00:12:43,622 --> 00:12:45,822
Speaker 3: dinner with some mum friends and our kids at a

272
00:12:45,862 --> 00:12:48,982
Speaker 3: Tepanaki joint, which is really interesting because you always wonder

273
00:12:49,022 --> 00:12:51,262
Speaker 3: whether or not the food is going to make it

274
00:12:51,262 --> 00:12:53,262
Speaker 3: into the bowl or if it's going to go all

275
00:12:53,262 --> 00:12:55,982
Speaker 3: over your brand new jumper. I'm pleased to report that

276
00:12:56,022 --> 00:12:57,662
Speaker 3: my jumper did not have stains on it. At the

277
00:12:57,742 --> 00:13:00,062
Speaker 3: end of the night, you know, I'm devoid of conversation.

278
00:13:00,262 --> 00:13:03,302
Speaker 3: I'm very tired, and I just started talking about mouth

279
00:13:03,342 --> 00:13:06,062
Speaker 3: tape because that's my go to and I realized that's

280
00:13:06,142 --> 00:13:09,302
Speaker 3: really boring. So we probably shouldn't say just kids are boring,

281
00:13:09,302 --> 00:13:11,982
Speaker 3: and in fact, this conversation you couldn't send it to partners.

282
00:13:12,342 --> 00:13:15,462
Speaker 3: Think about heterosexual relationships where you've got do I bring

283
00:13:15,582 --> 00:13:17,582
Speaker 3: the man who's now in my life along to the

284
00:13:17,982 --> 00:13:19,102
Speaker 3: dinner with girlfriends.

285
00:13:19,182 --> 00:13:21,942
Speaker 2: I have met men so much more boring than a

286
00:13:21,942 --> 00:13:23,582
Speaker 2: sick comper so much.

287
00:13:23,662 --> 00:13:25,982
Speaker 3: This is what I'm saying, And I guess the contention

288
00:13:26,142 --> 00:13:28,702
Speaker 3: that I'm moving towards here is we're all a little

289
00:13:28,742 --> 00:13:31,542
Speaker 3: bit boring, but our friends the people who find us

290
00:13:31,582 --> 00:13:34,102
Speaker 3: the right amount of boring, So let's not drag other

291
00:13:34,182 --> 00:13:37,822
Speaker 3: people into the equation. See your friends on the terms

292
00:13:37,822 --> 00:13:40,062
Speaker 3: of the friendship. Don't try and bring kids in, don't

293
00:13:40,062 --> 00:13:41,822
Speaker 3: try and bring partners in.

294
00:13:41,822 --> 00:13:42,782
Speaker 1: Interesting, I'm all.

295
00:13:42,662 --> 00:13:46,502
Speaker 3: About the compartmentalization. I think it's also because we're not

296
00:13:46,622 --> 00:13:48,862
Speaker 3: as accustomed to the ups and downs in our friendships

297
00:13:48,902 --> 00:13:50,702
Speaker 3: as we are in our relationships. Like I think there's

298
00:13:50,702 --> 00:13:53,742
Speaker 3: an understanding that in long term relationships you might go

299
00:13:53,782 --> 00:13:56,742
Speaker 3: through rough patches, you'll go through great patches, and the

300
00:13:56,782 --> 00:13:59,062
Speaker 3: same is not really said for friendships, like we just go, oh,

301
00:13:59,102 --> 00:14:01,622
Speaker 3: that's run its course once they've had a child and

302
00:14:01,622 --> 00:14:04,262
Speaker 3: they've kind of retreated. So and the other thing to

303
00:14:04,302 --> 00:14:06,702
Speaker 3: consider is how much our circle of friends changes in

304
00:14:06,742 --> 00:14:08,822
Speaker 3: that time, because we talk about losing friends a lot,

305
00:14:08,902 --> 00:14:12,062
Speaker 3: or maybe friends our children retreating from us. But you

306
00:14:12,222 --> 00:14:15,542
Speaker 3: also are forced into a lot of extra friendships through circumstance,

307
00:14:15,622 --> 00:14:18,222
Speaker 3: like whether that's through a mother's group, whether that's through

308
00:14:18,222 --> 00:14:21,222
Speaker 3: sport or kids activities, where so many more people end

309
00:14:21,262 --> 00:14:23,422
Speaker 3: up in your life. And there was an essay in

310
00:14:23,582 --> 00:14:27,862
Speaker 3: Psychology Today where clinical psychologist Seth Myers, not the late

311
00:14:27,942 --> 00:14:32,782
Speaker 3: night host, talked about how many people are blindsided by

312
00:14:32,822 --> 00:14:34,702
Speaker 3: the level of loss when it comes to their friendships.

313
00:14:34,702 --> 00:14:37,462
Speaker 3: Because it's always the ones they don't expect. But he

314
00:14:37,662 --> 00:14:40,342
Speaker 3: also warned about being a bit cautious going into these

315
00:14:40,382 --> 00:14:43,382
Speaker 3: new friendships because they've kind of been forced upon you

316
00:14:43,462 --> 00:14:46,422
Speaker 3: by circumstance, that they might not stand the test of

317
00:14:46,462 --> 00:14:48,822
Speaker 3: time once those children have kind of grown up or

318
00:14:48,862 --> 00:14:51,262
Speaker 3: moved out of that activity. That is so true.

319
00:14:51,302 --> 00:14:53,542
Speaker 2: I've seen that happen where I think people look at

320
00:14:53,542 --> 00:14:55,902
Speaker 2: each other and they go, oh, we're only mates because

321
00:14:56,382 --> 00:14:58,902
Speaker 2: or they've tried to like go, all right, so we're

322
00:14:58,942 --> 00:15:01,382
Speaker 2: friends because our kids's a primary school together, and they're like,

323
00:15:01,462 --> 00:15:04,582
Speaker 2: let's try and do a weaken away. Doesn't worry. It's like, no, no, no,

324
00:15:04,662 --> 00:15:06,182
Speaker 2: it only works in that context.

325
00:15:06,222 --> 00:15:06,662
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

326
00:15:06,902 --> 00:15:09,622
Speaker 3: This makes me think about the fact that when you

327
00:15:09,622 --> 00:15:13,622
Speaker 3: you have little kids, conversation is never that good, and

328
00:15:13,702 --> 00:15:16,542
Speaker 3: so the friendship there's never that much strain put on

329
00:15:16,582 --> 00:15:19,662
Speaker 3: the friend Yes, but as the kids grow older and

330
00:15:19,662 --> 00:15:21,622
Speaker 3: they're off doing their own thing, all of a sudden,

331
00:15:21,662 --> 00:15:25,822
Speaker 3: the spotlight is on can this relationship with stand long

332
00:15:25,902 --> 00:15:29,462
Speaker 3: stretches of actual conversation. The jury is out.

333
00:15:30,982 --> 00:15:33,222
Speaker 2: There are a few things floating around in the culture

334
00:15:33,222 --> 00:15:35,702
Speaker 2: that I'm going to attempt to bring together. The first

335
00:15:35,982 --> 00:15:39,102
Speaker 2: is the Atlantic published a story this month about the

336
00:15:39,142 --> 00:15:43,422
Speaker 2: return of the landline. Writer Rina Murray spoke to a

337
00:15:43,462 --> 00:15:45,982
Speaker 2: mother who bought her ten year old a landline to

338
00:15:46,022 --> 00:15:47,982
Speaker 2: connect with her friends, and this was in lieu of

339
00:15:48,022 --> 00:15:51,742
Speaker 2: a smartphone, and then encouraged other families in the suburb

340
00:15:51,782 --> 00:15:54,542
Speaker 2: to do the same. So now twenty or so families

341
00:15:54,582 --> 00:15:57,662
Speaker 2: have landlines. They've got their kids calling each other. She

342
00:15:57,742 --> 00:16:00,582
Speaker 2: writes about sort of practicing active listening, which is a

343
00:16:00,582 --> 00:16:03,502
Speaker 2: lot better than looking on FaceTime, which can be distracting.

344
00:16:04,022 --> 00:16:06,142
Speaker 2: And this leads me to the second thing. I listened

345
00:16:06,142 --> 00:16:08,862
Speaker 2: to this great episode of Search Engine, which was about

346
00:16:08,902 --> 00:16:13,422
Speaker 2: a boomy industry of technology to stop you from using

347
00:16:13,462 --> 00:16:16,702
Speaker 2: addictive technology. So think a dumb phone, or there's this

348
00:16:16,742 --> 00:16:19,382
Speaker 2: thing called a brick, which is you kind of tap

349
00:16:19,422 --> 00:16:21,462
Speaker 2: your phone, turns all the apps off, and then you

350
00:16:21,502 --> 00:16:23,062
Speaker 2: can go for a walk or spend a few hours

351
00:16:23,102 --> 00:16:25,222
Speaker 2: or whatever, and then you tap it again, apps come

352
00:16:25,262 --> 00:16:28,102
Speaker 2: back on. And the third thing is a story in

353
00:16:28,142 --> 00:16:31,942
Speaker 2: the Cut about millennial nostalgia for a ninety summer. It's

354
00:16:31,982 --> 00:16:37,262
Speaker 2: about the school holidays where time was unstructured. You laid around,

355
00:16:37,302 --> 00:16:39,782
Speaker 2: maybe you watched some TV, you got up late, you

356
00:16:39,862 --> 00:16:43,342
Speaker 2: went on a budget family trip up the coast, basically

357
00:16:43,502 --> 00:16:44,782
Speaker 2: a time before YouTube.

358
00:16:45,142 --> 00:16:46,462
Speaker 3: And I think what.

359
00:16:46,382 --> 00:16:48,982
Speaker 2: This highlighted for me is that we're trying to wind

360
00:16:49,062 --> 00:16:52,782
Speaker 2: back the clock and recreate the childhood we had. And

361
00:16:52,902 --> 00:16:57,182
Speaker 2: my question is is that even possible, Stacy, what do

362
00:16:57,182 --> 00:16:57,502
Speaker 2: you think?

363
00:16:58,062 --> 00:17:01,622
Speaker 3: No, I don't think it's possible at all, But I

364
00:17:01,662 --> 00:17:04,141
Speaker 3: love that everyone is trying. And my best friend has

365
00:17:04,182 --> 00:17:06,101
Speaker 3: actually been telling me the same thing is happening in

366
00:17:06,142 --> 00:17:08,742
Speaker 3: her neighborhood at the moment, where all the year four

367
00:17:08,821 --> 00:17:12,141
Speaker 3: moms have set up a chat about reinstalling landlines in

368
00:17:12,182 --> 00:17:15,061
Speaker 3: their homes. I thought this was just an Atlantic trendy. No,

369
00:17:15,462 --> 00:17:20,582
Speaker 3: this is happening in regional Queensland where they're doing that

370
00:17:20,661 --> 00:17:23,461
Speaker 3: because and her reasoning was really interesting. She said, to me,

371
00:17:23,861 --> 00:17:26,022
Speaker 3: the most important thing to me is just allowing her

372
00:17:26,061 --> 00:17:29,141
Speaker 3: to be where she is. So whether they're out at school, sport,

373
00:17:29,222 --> 00:17:32,861
Speaker 3: whether they're at home just having family time, the technology

374
00:17:32,901 --> 00:17:36,142
Speaker 3: can physically not reach her, so it's very easy way

375
00:17:36,182 --> 00:17:38,022
Speaker 3: to shut it off and it not be available and

376
00:17:38,222 --> 00:17:40,462
Speaker 3: still be able to enjoy being in the present moment

377
00:17:40,502 --> 00:17:43,461
Speaker 3: of her childhood. And that's the fear for everybody. The

378
00:17:43,542 --> 00:17:46,782
Speaker 3: idea that the landline is prolonging her having to get

379
00:17:47,222 --> 00:17:51,022
Speaker 3: a mobile pho. Yes, her daughter, Yeah, absolutely, because then

380
00:17:51,462 --> 00:17:53,461
Speaker 3: it is very much that she can talk in a

381
00:17:53,462 --> 00:17:55,901
Speaker 3: public space. Her parents are around, they can see that

382
00:17:55,942 --> 00:17:59,022
Speaker 3: she's chatting, and as you say, they're actually holding a conversation.

383
00:17:59,262 --> 00:18:01,461
Speaker 3: It's not just tapping away on a keyboard to some

384
00:18:01,581 --> 00:18:05,782
Speaker 3: faceless friend. They're actually communicating and learning that skill, which

385
00:18:05,782 --> 00:18:08,222
Speaker 3: I think. I mean, even I hate having to call

386
00:18:08,422 --> 00:18:11,821
Speaker 3: the doctors. We just don't do it. So it's great

387
00:18:11,861 --> 00:18:13,302
Speaker 3: that they're encouraging them with that.

388
00:18:13,502 --> 00:18:16,542
Speaker 2: And the theory is that rather than just taking something

389
00:18:16,581 --> 00:18:19,381
Speaker 2: away and depriving, it's like you give them something else instead.

390
00:18:19,462 --> 00:18:22,381
Speaker 2: And it reminds me of in this Search Engine episode,

391
00:18:22,462 --> 00:18:25,901
Speaker 2: it said you can treat your mobile phone like a landline,

392
00:18:25,942 --> 00:18:27,661
Speaker 2: Like if you walk into your house and you plug

393
00:18:27,702 --> 00:18:29,461
Speaker 2: it in, and you go when my phone is in

394
00:18:29,462 --> 00:18:31,782
Speaker 2: my house, it's plugged in, that's it, and when I

395
00:18:31,782 --> 00:18:34,542
Speaker 2: want to use it, I go upstairs or I go whatever,

396
00:18:34,901 --> 00:18:38,782
Speaker 2: and I tap away. I thought that's really clever because

397
00:18:39,222 --> 00:18:41,341
Speaker 2: that has some boundary where if you're sitting on the

398
00:18:41,341 --> 00:18:42,821
Speaker 2: couch and you just go to look at your phone

399
00:18:42,821 --> 00:18:45,581
Speaker 2: for the four hundredth time that day, because let's be honest.

400
00:18:45,581 --> 00:18:48,902
Speaker 2: The reason why kids want phones is because we are

401
00:18:48,901 --> 00:18:52,302
Speaker 2: not setting a great example. I am appalling. Just having

402
00:18:52,341 --> 00:18:56,421
Speaker 2: that bit of resistance is way better for us. I

403
00:18:56,462 --> 00:19:00,262
Speaker 2: think it was in the cut article it talked about

404
00:19:00,262 --> 00:19:04,221
Speaker 2: this concept of kid rotting, and it was saying that

405
00:19:04,742 --> 00:19:08,181
Speaker 2: it might be better to let kids do nothing.

406
00:19:08,381 --> 00:19:08,581
Speaker 3: Right.

407
00:19:08,702 --> 00:19:11,742
Speaker 2: So what happened now? School holidays are coming up and

408
00:19:11,782 --> 00:19:14,861
Speaker 2: a lot of people will go camps training. Let's have

409
00:19:14,942 --> 00:19:17,861
Speaker 2: something for every day. But I don't think you can

410
00:19:17,982 --> 00:19:20,661
Speaker 2: let a kid rot anymore, because if a kid is rotting,

411
00:19:20,942 --> 00:19:24,341
Speaker 2: they will gravitate like there is a magnet to the

412
00:19:24,422 --> 00:19:28,382
Speaker 2: nearest screen and there is no unstructured time because that's

413
00:19:28,462 --> 00:19:32,302
Speaker 2: just screen time. We'll pay a premium. There is such

414
00:19:32,341 --> 00:19:34,901
Speaker 2: desperation to be like, oh, school holidays, how do I

415
00:19:34,901 --> 00:19:38,502
Speaker 2: separate child from screen for the longest amount of time possible?

416
00:19:38,581 --> 00:19:41,341
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was talking with a friend about the pressure

417
00:19:41,381 --> 00:19:43,542
Speaker 3: that we have to enroll kids and all sorts of

418
00:19:43,621 --> 00:19:47,901
Speaker 3: activities now, and she really dropped a truth bomb. She said,

419
00:19:48,422 --> 00:19:51,302
Speaker 3: I realized I dial back on my kids' activities, and

420
00:19:51,302 --> 00:19:53,262
Speaker 3: then I realized that I was just giving them more

421
00:19:53,262 --> 00:19:57,502
Speaker 3: time to watch television. Yes, exactly right. We had television

422
00:19:57,542 --> 00:19:59,501
Speaker 3: back in the olden days. But were we just watching

423
00:19:59,621 --> 00:20:00,262
Speaker 3: less of it?

424
00:20:00,661 --> 00:20:04,101
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it wasn't I think underpinned with an algorithm

425
00:20:04,141 --> 00:20:06,501
Speaker 2: designed to turn our brains into mush. It was like,

426
00:20:06,621 --> 00:20:09,142
Speaker 2: I think we all remember the experience of getting bored.

427
00:20:08,942 --> 00:20:11,462
Speaker 3: Yes, so we didn't have the expectation that we would

428
00:20:11,462 --> 00:20:14,621
Speaker 3: need to be entertained at all times, exactly children already have.

429
00:20:14,942 --> 00:20:17,542
Speaker 2: And then when you went outside, like, yeah, you could

430
00:20:17,542 --> 00:20:19,621
Speaker 2: go to a friend's house and watch television. But even

431
00:20:19,942 --> 00:20:21,701
Speaker 2: if you haven't seen your kids in a while and

432
00:20:21,742 --> 00:20:24,181
Speaker 2: they're at the neighbor's house or whatever, they're probably on

433
00:20:24,262 --> 00:20:27,262
Speaker 2: PS five right like that, it's very unlikely they're making

434
00:20:27,262 --> 00:20:30,261
Speaker 2: a tree house, which is I think contributing to this

435
00:20:30,302 --> 00:20:35,981
Speaker 2: parental anxiety. And it also I think screens make time

436
00:20:36,742 --> 00:20:40,262
Speaker 2: feel different, Like there is this endlessness to a day

437
00:20:40,381 --> 00:20:44,261
Speaker 2: where you're engaged with the world around you, and now

438
00:20:44,942 --> 00:20:49,262
Speaker 2: it just feels so punctuated by three second videos or

439
00:20:49,422 --> 00:20:51,462
Speaker 2: YouTube or whatever they're on.

440
00:20:51,861 --> 00:20:55,181
Speaker 3: And here's another thing I'm concerned about the death of

441
00:20:55,182 --> 00:20:55,982
Speaker 3: the prank call.

442
00:20:58,341 --> 00:21:01,542
Speaker 2: Make prank calls so important, Amelia so true?

443
00:21:02,182 --> 00:21:04,341
Speaker 1: What was your go to look?

444
00:21:04,422 --> 00:21:06,141
Speaker 3: I don't even want to say it on that. But

445
00:21:06,262 --> 00:21:09,501
Speaker 3: I did love a prank call, like wrapping the curly call,

446
00:21:09,661 --> 00:21:12,821
Speaker 3: ordered the phone around my finger, doing the star sixty

447
00:21:12,901 --> 00:21:13,702
Speaker 3: nine to see.

448
00:21:13,502 --> 00:21:14,342
Speaker 1: Who would last call?

449
00:21:14,621 --> 00:21:17,821
Speaker 3: Remember that, Yeah, someone tells her how a devilish sense

450
00:21:17,821 --> 00:21:20,782
Speaker 3: of humor. I loved all of that, I know, and

451
00:21:20,821 --> 00:21:23,061
Speaker 3: it's sad to think that for the most part, kids

452
00:21:23,101 --> 00:21:26,222
Speaker 3: are not having that. I just wonder, though, it's hard

453
00:21:26,222 --> 00:21:30,061
Speaker 3: to distinguish between moral panic around phones and also the

454
00:21:30,101 --> 00:21:33,182
Speaker 3: inevitable nostalgia that a parenting generation.

455
00:21:32,901 --> 00:21:34,061
Speaker 1: Has for its youth.

456
00:21:34,262 --> 00:21:36,061
Speaker 3: Is that just what we're doing here, or is there

457
00:21:36,101 --> 00:21:39,982
Speaker 3: something fundamentally different about the digital world that we live

458
00:21:39,982 --> 00:21:42,061
Speaker 3: in now as compared with the world that we grew

459
00:21:42,141 --> 00:21:42,381
Speaker 3: up in.

460
00:21:42,821 --> 00:21:45,661
Speaker 2: I wonder that too, because there's an inevitable nostalgia. Like

461
00:21:45,702 --> 00:21:47,982
Speaker 2: I'm sure my mum felt the nostalgia because we had

462
00:21:48,101 --> 00:21:50,022
Speaker 2: Foxtel and she was like, well, I think when my

463
00:21:50,141 --> 00:21:52,661
Speaker 2: mum grew up, TV wasn't actually on all night, Like

464
00:21:52,661 --> 00:21:55,341
Speaker 2: there was a point at which the TV stopped and

465
00:21:55,381 --> 00:21:57,222
Speaker 2: she just went, you could watch TV at any time,

466
00:21:57,262 --> 00:21:58,622
Speaker 2: and you can change the channel and you watch.

467
00:21:58,661 --> 00:22:00,742
Speaker 3: And when I grew up, there was rage, and.

468
00:22:00,742 --> 00:22:01,661
Speaker 1: Now there's no rage.

469
00:22:01,702 --> 00:22:03,742
Speaker 3: It's rage it's so sad, and you don't have to

470
00:22:03,742 --> 00:22:06,181
Speaker 3: wait for the video to rewind, so there is absolutely

471
00:22:06,222 --> 00:22:08,821
Speaker 3: no patience. Remember that when you get out the best

472
00:22:08,901 --> 00:22:11,262
Speaker 3: video to watch on school holidays and it was at

473
00:22:11,262 --> 00:22:13,661
Speaker 3: the end, you had to wait to rewind it back

474
00:22:13,702 --> 00:22:14,141
Speaker 3: to the start.

475
00:22:14,302 --> 00:22:17,141
Speaker 1: I don't do that now. It's just on a loop instantly.

476
00:22:17,502 --> 00:22:20,542
Speaker 3: And I do think the fundamental challenge we have as

477
00:22:20,661 --> 00:22:26,101
Speaker 3: parents is trying to reacquaint ourselves with boredom, because our

478
00:22:26,182 --> 00:22:28,381
Speaker 3: children are learning from us every time we pick up

479
00:22:28,381 --> 00:22:31,501
Speaker 3: our phone because we feel discomfort or disquiet or boredom.

480
00:22:31,821 --> 00:22:35,221
Speaker 2: I reckon algorithms have changed childhood. There is an element

481
00:22:35,262 --> 00:22:38,101
Speaker 2: of nostalgia in us wanting to recreate what we see

482
00:22:38,101 --> 00:22:40,861
Speaker 2: as an idyllic if we're lucky enough, but moments of

483
00:22:41,262 --> 00:22:43,901
Speaker 2: an idyllic kind of utopian childhood, and we go I

484
00:22:43,901 --> 00:22:46,382
Speaker 2: want to give them that. I do think that it's

485
00:22:46,422 --> 00:22:50,621
Speaker 2: fundamentally changed how time is spent in childhood. And I

486
00:22:50,661 --> 00:22:54,461
Speaker 2: even think about the computer room. Like when I grew up,

487
00:22:54,462 --> 00:22:56,982
Speaker 2: when the computer did come, it was in a room

488
00:22:57,502 --> 00:23:01,462
Speaker 2: and you fought for it, and sometimes it was dial up.

489
00:23:01,982 --> 00:23:04,101
Speaker 2: There was a sense as well that even though it

490
00:23:04,141 --> 00:23:06,461
Speaker 2: was a room that it wasn't entirely private, so you

491
00:23:06,502 --> 00:23:08,941
Speaker 2: felt like you were being watched. And now every room

492
00:23:09,101 --> 00:23:11,901
Speaker 2: in every house is a computer room, so it just

493
00:23:11,982 --> 00:23:14,661
Speaker 2: means that time isn't it doesn't have these distinctions when

494
00:23:14,702 --> 00:23:15,022
Speaker 2: it comes to.

495
00:23:15,182 --> 00:23:17,662
Speaker 3: Exactly and on Muma Mea, actually, we've seen a huge

496
00:23:17,661 --> 00:23:20,782
Speaker 3: appetite from parents for information on how to control their

497
00:23:20,861 --> 00:23:24,542
Speaker 3: children's access to technology. We did a story on the

498
00:23:24,581 --> 00:23:28,022
Speaker 3: top three safety features every parent needs on their phone

499
00:23:28,061 --> 00:23:30,702
Speaker 3: that analyst Todd wrote for us and it was top

500
00:23:30,821 --> 00:23:34,422
Speaker 3: on the site for days just talking about us. Yeah,

501
00:23:34,422 --> 00:23:36,741
Speaker 3: so there's lots of different features. This is mostly for

502
00:23:36,742 --> 00:23:39,942
Speaker 3: the Apple users, so apologies to the androids users among us.

503
00:23:40,262 --> 00:23:43,981
Speaker 3: But there's now nudity blocking functions where oh wow, you

504
00:23:43,982 --> 00:23:45,861
Speaker 3: can set those up on your children's phone so it

505
00:23:45,901 --> 00:23:48,702
Speaker 3: blurs the images. They've got a three step process they

506
00:23:48,742 --> 00:23:51,341
Speaker 3: have to get through to see it, including you putting

507
00:23:51,381 --> 00:23:54,502
Speaker 3: in a password for them to see the image. There's

508
00:23:54,581 --> 00:23:57,381
Speaker 3: screen time setups now where you can be blocking certain

509
00:23:57,422 --> 00:23:59,821
Speaker 3: websites so that they can't access them, and of course

510
00:23:59,821 --> 00:24:02,942
Speaker 3: like limiting their screen time all together can be done

511
00:24:02,982 --> 00:24:06,381
Speaker 3: as well. But the response to that story was epic,

512
00:24:06,502 --> 00:24:08,702
Speaker 3: and I think that just showed how worried we all

513
00:24:08,742 --> 00:24:10,621
Speaker 3: are about that web. We're at that stage with our

514
00:24:10,702 --> 00:24:13,302
Speaker 3: children or not to be thinking well, how am I

515
00:24:13,341 --> 00:24:14,742
Speaker 3: going to get on top of this? And maybe a

516
00:24:14,782 --> 00:24:16,902
Speaker 3: little bit of thinking how do I get on top

517
00:24:16,942 --> 00:24:19,821
Speaker 3: of this one myself now so that I'm not setting

518
00:24:19,821 --> 00:24:20,502
Speaker 3: this up for them.

519
00:24:20,661 --> 00:24:23,302
Speaker 2: Emily Osta, who gives a bit of parenting advice, and

520
00:24:23,422 --> 00:24:27,341
Speaker 2: a lot of it is databased. She says about screen time,

521
00:24:28,381 --> 00:24:30,901
Speaker 2: what's it taking away from? So whenever you have a

522
00:24:31,061 --> 00:24:34,941
Speaker 2: child who's looking at a screen, So for example, Luna

523
00:24:34,942 --> 00:24:37,941
Speaker 2: has been unwell recently, and it's like, we wouldn't be

524
00:24:37,982 --> 00:24:43,102
Speaker 2: at the park, we wouldn't be doing something enriching, She's

525
00:24:43,141 --> 00:24:45,181
Speaker 2: glad to look at the TV. Like, if the difference

526
00:24:45,222 --> 00:24:47,181
Speaker 2: is between looking at a TV and looking at a

527
00:24:47,182 --> 00:24:49,422
Speaker 2: white wall, then you're allowed to do the TV. It's

528
00:24:49,462 --> 00:24:52,741
Speaker 2: just when it starts to sort of encroach on other activities.

529
00:24:52,782 --> 00:24:55,661
Speaker 2: And I also heard an expert say not all screen

530
00:24:55,742 --> 00:24:58,341
Speaker 2: time is equal. So if you can find something that

531
00:24:58,381 --> 00:25:01,422
Speaker 2: has any sort of narrative, like even Blueye, it does

532
00:25:01,502 --> 00:25:03,821
Speaker 2: have like a story to it, way better than just

533
00:25:03,942 --> 00:25:08,341
Speaker 2: jumbling fast cuts of like this is brainmush or social

534
00:25:08,341 --> 00:25:10,782
Speaker 2: media like that makes a difference, and something that's a

535
00:25:10,821 --> 00:25:13,782
Speaker 2: little bit more slow is also what some of the

536
00:25:13,821 --> 00:25:16,861
Speaker 2: experts say. And in terms of phones, I remember reading

537
00:25:16,861 --> 00:25:19,302
Speaker 2: the advice years ago turn it to gray scale, and

538
00:25:19,341 --> 00:25:22,022
Speaker 2: it makes it less appealing, and I've found that helps

539
00:25:22,022 --> 00:25:22,982
Speaker 2: for me to see.

540
00:25:24,821 --> 00:25:28,821
Speaker 3: Mss Rachel is a very popular children's entertainer. I have

541
00:25:28,942 --> 00:25:32,502
Speaker 3: actually never seen her videos, but I have gone deep

542
00:25:32,661 --> 00:25:37,141
Speaker 3: on a controversy that has embroiled her and which I

543
00:25:37,141 --> 00:25:39,421
Speaker 3: think gets to the heart of the relationship that we

544
00:25:39,502 --> 00:25:42,221
Speaker 3: now have with children's entertainers. So let me unpack it.

545
00:25:42,821 --> 00:25:45,701
Speaker 3: Her real name is Rachel and Accurso. She is a

546
00:25:45,702 --> 00:25:49,182
Speaker 3: former teacher. She makes adorable content for kids on YouTube.

547
00:25:49,381 --> 00:25:52,022
Speaker 3: I'm told it's adorable. She certainly looks adorable. She wears

548
00:25:52,061 --> 00:25:54,462
Speaker 3: overalls and a pink T shirt and a pick headband,

549
00:25:55,182 --> 00:25:58,142
Speaker 3: and her channel, which started in twenty nineteen to help

550
00:25:58,182 --> 00:26:00,862
Speaker 3: her own son with a speech delay, has over fifteen

551
00:26:00,901 --> 00:26:05,182
Speaker 3: million subscribers, and she's recently had her videos licensed by Netflix,

552
00:26:05,302 --> 00:26:08,262
Speaker 3: so she might be, by some metrics, the most popular

553
00:26:08,341 --> 00:26:11,782
Speaker 3: children's entertainer in the world. However, she is in trouble.

554
00:26:12,182 --> 00:26:16,181
Speaker 3: In April, an American group called Stop Antisemitism called on

555
00:26:16,222 --> 00:26:20,341
Speaker 3: the US Attorney General, Pam Bondie to investigate Miss Rachel.

556
00:26:20,982 --> 00:26:22,461
Speaker 1: The group said that she had.

557
00:26:22,341 --> 00:26:27,141
Speaker 3: Been disseminating pro harmas propaganda and getting paid by her

558
00:26:27,222 --> 00:26:30,222
Speaker 3: maas for doing so, which would be quite a scandal.

559
00:26:30,302 --> 00:26:35,222
Speaker 3: I agree, is Miss Rachel in fact disseminating pro hamas propaganda?

560
00:26:35,861 --> 00:26:38,861
Speaker 3: We should say that she denies that she is being

561
00:26:38,901 --> 00:26:41,941
Speaker 3: paid anything by her maas, and I think that the

562
00:26:42,022 --> 00:26:45,262
Speaker 3: charge that she's disseminating propaganda is kind of a tough

563
00:26:45,341 --> 00:26:47,902
Speaker 3: case to make. Speaking as someone who is not very

564
00:26:47,901 --> 00:26:49,941
Speaker 3: familiar with her content, I watched a few of her

565
00:26:49,982 --> 00:26:53,981
Speaker 3: videos in preparation for this. They seem very benign to me.

566
00:26:54,141 --> 00:26:57,622
Speaker 3: They seem to be about toilet training, brushing your teeth,

567
00:26:58,022 --> 00:27:01,341
Speaker 3: learning your colors. I did not see anything that would

568
00:27:01,422 --> 00:27:05,222
Speaker 3: seem to be pro har mass propaganda. What she has

569
00:27:05,302 --> 00:27:08,262
Speaker 3: posted on her social media feed on her Instagram so

570
00:27:08,381 --> 00:27:12,901
Speaker 3: separate from the YouTube, are images of traumatized children in

571
00:27:12,942 --> 00:27:16,581
Speaker 3: the Gaza strip. These images often feature the children watching

572
00:27:16,581 --> 00:27:20,341
Speaker 3: her videos or even interacting with Miss Rachel via FaceTime.

573
00:27:21,222 --> 00:27:23,581
Speaker 3: She has also pledged one million dollars to the World

574
00:27:23,661 --> 00:27:26,701
Speaker 3: Food Program, which works to provide nutrition for kids in

575
00:27:26,742 --> 00:27:32,141
Speaker 3: conflict zones Sudan, Ukraine, and also Gaza. She has also

576
00:27:32,222 --> 00:27:35,821
Speaker 3: posted about Israeli children who were held hostage by Hamas.

577
00:27:36,621 --> 00:27:38,662
Speaker 3: She told The New York Times in a very long

578
00:27:38,702 --> 00:27:41,741
Speaker 3: investigative peace about this that her posting about children in

579
00:27:41,782 --> 00:27:45,302
Speaker 3: Gaza was a continuation of her lifelong work and passion

580
00:27:45,381 --> 00:27:49,421
Speaker 3: for children. But The Times quoted some Jewish parents who

581
00:27:49,502 --> 00:27:52,382
Speaker 3: felt distraught. They said that there was a relative lack

582
00:27:52,422 --> 00:27:55,142
Speaker 3: of posts about Israeli children, and The Times, which did

583
00:27:55,141 --> 00:27:59,581
Speaker 3: an analysis of Miss Rachel's Instagram content, agreed with that

584
00:27:59,661 --> 00:28:02,821
Speaker 3: assessment that she did tend to post more about Gaza

585
00:28:02,821 --> 00:28:06,982
Speaker 3: and children than Israeli children. One Jewish parent quoted said

586
00:28:07,141 --> 00:28:09,661
Speaker 3: Miss Rachel seems to be someone who is really really

587
00:28:09,702 --> 00:28:12,701
Speaker 3: good hearted, but in the context of everything that's going on,

588
00:28:12,861 --> 00:28:15,701
Speaker 3: she says, I care about all children, She's really talking

589
00:28:15,702 --> 00:28:18,542
Speaker 3: about the children of Gaza. That was a Jewish parent

590
00:28:18,581 --> 00:28:21,741
Speaker 3: called Stacy Hackner, who's based in London. She said that

591
00:28:21,821 --> 00:28:24,822
Speaker 3: has left a lot of Jewish parents feeling quite isolated.

592
00:28:26,022 --> 00:28:28,622
Speaker 3: In research for this, I have to say that one

593
00:28:28,742 --> 00:28:31,742
Speaker 3: video that Miss Rachel pin really made a big impression

594
00:28:31,782 --> 00:28:33,901
Speaker 3: on me. It featured a three year old girl called

595
00:28:34,061 --> 00:28:38,022
Speaker 3: Rahaf who was a double amputee who was medically evacuated

596
00:28:38,022 --> 00:28:40,782
Speaker 3: from Gaza for her surgery and sings a song with

597
00:28:40,902 --> 00:28:44,302
Speaker 3: Miss Rachel about skipping and hopping. Her two brothers are

598
00:28:44,342 --> 00:28:48,222
Speaker 3: still in Gaza with their father. Stepping back from all

599
00:28:48,222 --> 00:28:51,222
Speaker 3: of this, though, I want to talk about why we

600
00:28:51,422 --> 00:28:56,302
Speaker 3: feel so connected in this way to children's entertainers, why

601
00:28:56,382 --> 00:29:00,382
Speaker 3: it matters to us what Miss Rachel thinks about world

602
00:29:00,422 --> 00:29:03,622
Speaker 3: news and events. I think it's probably inevitable on one

603
00:29:03,702 --> 00:29:05,822
Speaker 3: level that these debates are happening. You just have to

604
00:29:05,822 --> 00:29:08,701
Speaker 3: look at how during COVID desperate parents were looking for

605
00:29:08,782 --> 00:29:11,382
Speaker 3: anything to enter their children, and they latched on to

606
00:29:11,582 --> 00:29:15,102
Speaker 3: all sorts of parenting gurus. So one guru I was

607
00:29:15,142 --> 00:29:17,622
Speaker 3: obsessed with during this time was an American woman called

608
00:29:17,661 --> 00:29:20,342
Speaker 3: Taking Cara Babies. Have either of you heard of her? No?

609
00:29:21,342 --> 00:29:25,902
Speaker 3: So she is this lovely blonde woman from Arizona who

610
00:29:26,062 --> 00:29:29,862
Speaker 3: posted endless Instagram videos about sleep schedules. She absolutely got

611
00:29:29,902 --> 00:29:33,222
Speaker 3: me through twenty twenty. I'm still exciting in my household

612
00:29:33,302 --> 00:29:35,342
Speaker 3: all the time. Her idea of the sleepwave, you got

613
00:29:35,382 --> 00:29:37,622
Speaker 3: to ride the sleepwave. This applies to adults too. If

614
00:29:37,622 --> 00:29:39,622
Speaker 3: you feel sleep coming on, you got to ride the wave,

615
00:29:39,702 --> 00:29:41,142
Speaker 3: and if you miss the wave, you gotta wait for

616
00:29:41,182 --> 00:29:44,622
Speaker 3: the next one. Genius. I was very dismayed when I

617
00:29:44,702 --> 00:29:47,822
Speaker 3: found out that Kara was a Trump supporter. She had

618
00:29:47,822 --> 00:29:50,902
Speaker 3: not posted about it on her taking care of Babies account,

619
00:29:50,942 --> 00:29:53,502
Speaker 3: but she was posting about it on her personal account.

620
00:29:53,942 --> 00:29:56,822
Speaker 3: I really resented her using even her personal account to

621
00:29:56,822 --> 00:29:59,422
Speaker 3: talk about politics, and it made me not want to

622
00:29:59,542 --> 00:30:04,741
Speaker 3: watch her videos or take her sleep advice anymore. I'm

623
00:30:04,822 --> 00:30:08,222
Speaker 3: not drawing equivalences or even parallels between these very different

624
00:30:08,262 --> 00:30:14,142
Speaker 3: political stories here. I'm mentioning it because I felt left out, resentful,

625
00:30:14,542 --> 00:30:16,822
Speaker 3: angry at taking care of babies in a way that

626
00:30:16,862 --> 00:30:18,941
Speaker 3: perhaps I didn't have a right to. She was teaching

627
00:30:18,982 --> 00:30:21,742
Speaker 3: me about children's sleep. She wasn't showing me her political

628
00:30:21,742 --> 00:30:24,742
Speaker 3: beliefs or talking about world events. But I think what's

629
00:30:24,742 --> 00:30:27,662
Speaker 3: interesting is that we clearly do expect people who work

630
00:30:27,702 --> 00:30:30,702
Speaker 3: with or care about kids to not share their political

631
00:30:30,742 --> 00:30:32,862
Speaker 3: beliefs with us, and to not share how they think

632
00:30:32,862 --> 00:30:35,742
Speaker 3: about the wider world. And I'm wondering if that's really fair.

633
00:30:36,422 --> 00:30:38,981
Speaker 3: And it seems connected to me to an idea that

634
00:30:39,102 --> 00:30:43,661
Speaker 3: children themselves should not be talked about as living in

635
00:30:43,702 --> 00:30:47,022
Speaker 3: an inherently political world. Children at living in a world

636
00:30:47,022 --> 00:30:49,862
Speaker 3: where the decisions made by leaders directly impact them. Doesn't

637
00:30:49,902 --> 00:30:52,822
Speaker 3: it make sense for the experts that we turn to

638
00:30:52,822 --> 00:30:55,222
Speaker 3: to raise our own children to weigh in on these

639
00:30:55,262 --> 00:30:56,941
Speaker 3: decisions that are being made by leaders.

640
00:30:57,262 --> 00:31:01,181
Speaker 2: Yes, it's interesting because I reckon it is a totally

641
00:31:01,702 --> 00:31:05,782
Speaker 2: different level of parasocial relationship. And I think it's because

642
00:31:05,862 --> 00:31:08,941
Speaker 2: of the moments where we feel our children, especially with

643
00:31:08,942 --> 00:31:12,142
Speaker 2: the Miss Rachel example. She's been in your home, she's

644
00:31:12,182 --> 00:31:15,982
Speaker 2: been in your child's bedroom, she's sung in your child's ear.

645
00:31:16,222 --> 00:31:17,782
Speaker 3: Are you are Miss Rachel a close?

646
00:31:17,902 --> 00:31:19,902
Speaker 2: So we have Miss Rachel plays a song for us

647
00:31:19,902 --> 00:31:21,741
Speaker 2: every time we brush our teeth. We do the brushing

648
00:31:21,742 --> 00:31:25,661
Speaker 2: teeth song, and she is like I see her and

649
00:31:25,782 --> 00:31:28,662
Speaker 2: hear her at some of my most vulnerable moments, at

650
00:31:28,661 --> 00:31:31,941
Speaker 2: some of Luna's most vulnerable moments, that she feels like

651
00:31:32,022 --> 00:31:34,181
Speaker 2: an extension of the family. And I don't think we

652
00:31:34,382 --> 00:31:38,622
Speaker 2: realize this until there is a moment, as you say

653
00:31:38,622 --> 00:31:41,342
Speaker 2: with your example, I don't feel this about Miss Rachel,

654
00:31:41,342 --> 00:31:44,741
Speaker 2: but like of betrayal, where people then go, hang on,

655
00:31:44,862 --> 00:31:46,862
Speaker 2: You're not who I thought you were. And I wonder

656
00:31:46,862 --> 00:31:49,662
Speaker 2: if it's like if you have a nanny or an

657
00:31:49,902 --> 00:31:53,142
Speaker 2: early educator or even a teacher, like there is an

658
00:31:53,182 --> 00:31:58,342
Speaker 2: expectation that their political selves or whatever might be left

659
00:31:58,342 --> 00:32:04,742
Speaker 2: outside the classroom because there is this incredible, innocent, almost

660
00:32:04,822 --> 00:32:10,102
Speaker 2: quite simplistic and straightforward relationship with your child. But on

661
00:32:10,142 --> 00:32:15,342
Speaker 2: the Miss Rachel example, I think it feels so consistent right,

662
00:32:15,462 --> 00:32:18,342
Speaker 2: Like she has said that no child should have their

663
00:32:18,382 --> 00:32:22,422
Speaker 2: crucial brain development interrupted by trauma. And whether you want

664
00:32:22,422 --> 00:32:25,302
Speaker 2: to talk about scale, and everyone has the right to

665
00:32:25,502 --> 00:32:27,902
Speaker 2: feel how they want to and not listen to Miss

666
00:32:27,982 --> 00:32:30,462
Speaker 2: Rachel if she doesn't feel like an extension of your

667
00:32:30,502 --> 00:32:34,142
Speaker 2: family anymore. But that does feel consistent with what she's

668
00:32:34,182 --> 00:32:36,941
Speaker 2: always done, and she's always, you know, encourage people to

669
00:32:37,582 --> 00:32:39,542
Speaker 2: donate to the food bank and make sure kids have

670
00:32:39,661 --> 00:32:41,781
Speaker 2: enough food. And I think that there were videos or

671
00:32:41,822 --> 00:32:46,461
Speaker 2: examples of kids in some of these instances watching Miss Rachel,

672
00:32:46,822 --> 00:32:49,502
Speaker 2: so to her, I think she probably felt drawn into

673
00:32:49,622 --> 00:32:52,502
Speaker 2: it as well because she had this presence.

674
00:32:53,062 --> 00:32:56,102
Speaker 3: I am a Miss Rachel household as well. We very

675
00:32:56,182 --> 00:32:58,862
Speaker 3: sincerely referred to her as the third parent in our

676
00:32:58,902 --> 00:33:01,102
Speaker 3: house hold. Can we step back, and I just want

677
00:33:01,142 --> 00:33:03,221
Speaker 3: to ask you both a quick question about her, because

678
00:33:03,222 --> 00:33:06,102
Speaker 3: I'm not familiar with her. She clearly is inspiring incredibly

679
00:33:06,142 --> 00:33:08,422
Speaker 3: strong feelings in people, both positive and negative.

680
00:33:08,782 --> 00:33:10,102
Speaker 1: What is it about her that.

681
00:33:10,102 --> 00:33:12,981
Speaker 3: Broke through in twenty twenty and beyond that was so

682
00:33:13,062 --> 00:33:15,741
Speaker 3: different from all the other children's entertainer For me, it

683
00:33:15,822 --> 00:33:18,702
Speaker 3: was that I had my daughter during COVID, So Miss

684
00:33:18,862 --> 00:33:22,421
Speaker 3: Rachel's voice face was with me in my darkest moments

685
00:33:22,502 --> 00:33:25,342
Speaker 3: quite literally, like in the dark with my daughter, when

686
00:33:25,382 --> 00:33:27,982
Speaker 3: I couldn't settle her with you know, colic and reflux

687
00:33:27,982 --> 00:33:30,501
Speaker 3: and all the things. Miss Rachel was the answer to that.

688
00:33:30,542 --> 00:33:34,542
Speaker 3: So I think you tie her to yourself in some

689
00:33:34,582 --> 00:33:37,142
Speaker 3: sort of you know, she's my savior in this situation.

690
00:33:37,342 --> 00:33:40,622
Speaker 2: Interesting your example, right, because as you were saying, Amelia, So,

691
00:33:40,702 --> 00:33:43,022
Speaker 2: I think that she only started making these videos in

692
00:33:43,142 --> 00:33:47,102
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty nineteen, and then something that she

693
00:33:47,142 --> 00:33:50,622
Speaker 2: couldn't control, which was the pandemic, happened and that is

694
00:33:50,702 --> 00:33:54,502
Speaker 2: when her star just rose enormously.

695
00:33:54,742 --> 00:33:57,981
Speaker 3: Why her as opposed to other children's entertainers? What was

696
00:33:57,982 --> 00:34:00,262
Speaker 3: it about her communication style? For instance?

697
00:34:00,582 --> 00:34:03,622
Speaker 2: I think it is about the fact that what she

698
00:34:03,862 --> 00:34:08,181
Speaker 2: does is educational. She has a master's degree in music education.

699
00:34:08,661 --> 00:34:12,302
Speaker 2: She sings, she's all about nunciation and that origin story

700
00:34:12,342 --> 00:34:14,341
Speaker 2: you told of how her son was one and didn't

701
00:34:14,382 --> 00:34:17,102
Speaker 2: have any words, yet she made these videos to help

702
00:34:17,182 --> 00:34:20,181
Speaker 2: him with language. And I think that, as we were

703
00:34:20,181 --> 00:34:22,221
Speaker 2: saying before, there's this sense that if a screen is on,

704
00:34:22,261 --> 00:34:25,142
Speaker 2: it should be enridging or it should be educational. It

705
00:34:25,221 --> 00:34:29,461
Speaker 2: was a guilt free way for people to have their child.

706
00:34:29,221 --> 00:34:32,461
Speaker 3: Exactly like my daughter learned sign language before she could

707
00:34:32,462 --> 00:34:35,342
Speaker 3: speak from Miss Rachel. We learned it from Miss Rachel.

708
00:34:35,862 --> 00:34:38,301
Speaker 3: So we started doing it because she was doing it,

709
00:34:38,342 --> 00:34:40,741
Speaker 3: and it felt like, oh, at least if I've got

710
00:34:40,741 --> 00:34:43,421
Speaker 3: the screen on. As Jesse said, it's something useful. It's

711
00:34:43,422 --> 00:34:46,142
Speaker 3: something that's helping her with her speech. It's helping her

712
00:34:46,181 --> 00:34:48,422
Speaker 3: with songs that we can't remember from where we were.

713
00:34:49,142 --> 00:34:52,261
Speaker 3: That I think was the magnetism of her. I think

714
00:34:52,261 --> 00:34:55,582
Speaker 3: that's the missing puzzle piece I needed to understand this story,

715
00:34:55,781 --> 00:35:00,942
Speaker 3: because the idea that she's helping children learn makes her

716
00:35:01,062 --> 00:35:04,542
Speaker 3: very different as a figure to someone like say Blippy. Yeah,

717
00:35:04,741 --> 00:35:08,701
Speaker 3: mister Blippy is not helping people children to learn. He's

718
00:35:08,902 --> 00:35:14,341
Speaker 3: largely cavorting through ridiculous scenarios and driving parents mad. And

719
00:35:14,422 --> 00:35:17,622
Speaker 3: I wonder if that's part of why a parents who

720
00:35:17,622 --> 00:35:20,542
Speaker 3: love miss Rachel love her so much and b why

721
00:35:20,701 --> 00:35:23,422
Speaker 3: she feels so strongly that there's a through line with

722
00:35:23,622 --> 00:35:26,142
Speaker 3: what she's doing to help children learn and how she's

723
00:35:26,181 --> 00:35:29,982
Speaker 3: communicating to their parents on Instagram about what she feels

724
00:35:30,022 --> 00:35:32,502
Speaker 3: as an urgent political situation that she wants them to

725
00:35:32,582 --> 00:35:33,102
Speaker 3: learn about.

726
00:35:33,382 --> 00:35:36,342
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really true. And I suppose if the children

727
00:35:36,382 --> 00:35:40,261
Speaker 2: are absorbing her through YouTube, then that feels like a

728
00:35:40,422 --> 00:35:44,861
Speaker 2: siloed experience. And then people, I guess, are seeing that

729
00:35:44,982 --> 00:35:49,221
Speaker 2: this smiling, chirpy woman who not only taught my child

730
00:35:49,302 --> 00:35:52,142
Speaker 2: but taught me a lot about parenting, taught me about

731
00:35:52,261 --> 00:35:54,622
Speaker 2: enunciating or what words to do, or are we doing colors?

732
00:35:54,661 --> 00:35:57,342
Speaker 2: Are we doing shapes? Are we doing all of these things?

733
00:35:58,261 --> 00:36:01,142
Speaker 2: What's difficult about this, you know, crisis as well, is

734
00:36:01,181 --> 00:36:03,102
Speaker 2: that what someone says and what someone hears are not

735
00:36:03,261 --> 00:36:05,822
Speaker 2: often the same thing, because it is a very loaded

736
00:36:05,862 --> 00:36:07,542
Speaker 2: There's a lot of history that a lot of context,

737
00:36:07,701 --> 00:36:11,181
Speaker 2: is a lot of trauma. So I think that that too,

738
00:36:11,582 --> 00:36:16,462
Speaker 2: is people feeling betrayed by something that has been shared.

739
00:36:16,741 --> 00:36:19,182
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think we expect a lot more from

740
00:36:19,302 --> 00:36:21,741
Speaker 3: anyone in the public eye now than we ever did.

741
00:36:21,781 --> 00:36:23,822
Speaker 3: I don't know if we would have known the personal

742
00:36:23,862 --> 00:36:26,422
Speaker 3: lives of the og Wiggles, that alone their stance on

743
00:36:26,542 --> 00:36:29,741
Speaker 3: geopolitical issues back when we were growing up, but so

744
00:36:29,822 --> 00:36:32,542
Speaker 3: true now there's so much more information out there, and

745
00:36:32,622 --> 00:36:35,821
Speaker 3: I think it is definitely worse for women in the

746
00:36:35,862 --> 00:36:38,942
Speaker 3: public eye. Like Taylor Swift was criticized for not backing

747
00:36:38,982 --> 00:36:42,781
Speaker 3: Kamala Harris quick enough in the US election, Chris Brown

748
00:36:42,862 --> 00:36:45,421
Speaker 3: is currently on a world tour even though he's found

749
00:36:45,422 --> 00:36:47,941
Speaker 3: guilty of domestic violence charges. We don't seem bothered by

750
00:36:47,942 --> 00:36:50,701
Speaker 3: what his views are on anything. Like there's just a

751
00:36:50,822 --> 00:36:52,782
Speaker 3: very double standard there for women.

752
00:36:53,022 --> 00:36:57,062
Speaker 2: That's true. I do think though that we've got the

753
00:36:57,062 --> 00:37:02,142
Speaker 2: Wiggles on sometimes and my obsession with Emma un Luckey's

754
00:37:02,181 --> 00:37:05,582
Speaker 2: marriage has just gone to ridiculous. And it wasn't just me,

755
00:37:05,622 --> 00:37:08,301
Speaker 2: it was also Luca. We had a week where Luna

756
00:37:08,422 --> 00:37:10,822
Speaker 2: was sick and it was on constantly, and I swear

757
00:37:10,822 --> 00:37:13,181
Speaker 2: we were hallucinating. We're in a wed state, and like

758
00:37:13,261 --> 00:37:15,261
Speaker 2: we needed the wedding photos, and then we needed to

759
00:37:15,261 --> 00:37:17,102
Speaker 2: know why they broke up. And now Lockie has a

760
00:37:17,142 --> 00:37:19,622
Speaker 2: new family and who is she? And I can tell

761
00:37:19,661 --> 00:37:21,902
Speaker 2: you what Emma did her PhD in And then I

762
00:37:21,942 --> 00:37:23,261
Speaker 2: had to go down the route of like is it

763
00:37:23,302 --> 00:37:25,261
Speaker 2: a wig or is it her real hair? Like if

764
00:37:25,302 --> 00:37:27,462
Speaker 2: I saw Emma walking down the street, I'd be like, hey,

765
00:37:27,462 --> 00:37:29,902
Speaker 2: am I, how you going? Like nice yellow bow? I

766
00:37:29,902 --> 00:37:33,342
Speaker 2: would just have so much She feels like a member

767
00:37:33,422 --> 00:37:36,781
Speaker 2: of my family, which is unlike anyone else I can

768
00:37:36,781 --> 00:37:37,702
Speaker 2: see him through a screen.

769
00:37:38,661 --> 00:37:41,382
Speaker 3: I'm also thinking about the fact that for missus Rachel,

770
00:37:41,542 --> 00:37:45,181
Speaker 3: she has the YouTube channel for kids, She's not posting

771
00:37:45,181 --> 00:37:48,221
Speaker 3: this on the YouTube channel. She's posting this on the Instagram.

772
00:37:48,502 --> 00:37:50,701
Speaker 3: And last time I checked, most three year olds don't

773
00:37:50,741 --> 00:37:54,781
Speaker 3: have Instagram, so there is a difference between those platforms.

774
00:37:54,822 --> 00:37:57,102
Speaker 3: On the other hand, to argue with myself, when I

775
00:37:57,102 --> 00:37:59,582
Speaker 3: found out that taking care of Babies was a Trump supporter,

776
00:37:59,942 --> 00:38:02,221
Speaker 3: she had never told me that on the Taking Care

777
00:38:02,221 --> 00:38:05,982
Speaker 3: of Babies sleep Instagram act, So why was it my business?

778
00:38:06,022 --> 00:38:08,221
Speaker 3: Why did I care if she was doing it over

779
00:38:08,261 --> 00:38:10,221
Speaker 3: on her separate personal count.

780
00:38:10,302 --> 00:38:13,742
Speaker 2: I think it's because you start to get your guard

781
00:38:13,862 --> 00:38:17,422
Speaker 2: up about whether that is informing the information or the

782
00:38:17,462 --> 00:38:19,901
Speaker 2: content that she's providing to the children. I think that

783
00:38:19,902 --> 00:38:23,182
Speaker 2: that's what you start to go, are you brainwashing my child?

784
00:38:23,261 --> 00:38:25,261
Speaker 2: And then you start to get like a bit paranoid

785
00:38:25,261 --> 00:38:27,701
Speaker 2: about it. And it's interesting that Miss Rachel has had

786
00:38:27,701 --> 00:38:31,661
Speaker 2: to turn off comments on Instagram and YouTube so under

787
00:38:31,701 --> 00:38:35,502
Speaker 2: her teeth Brushing song, the level of trolling was so

788
00:38:35,701 --> 00:38:38,181
Speaker 2: bad that she had to just go, no, I'm not

789
00:38:38,221 --> 00:38:38,741
Speaker 2: taking this on.

790
00:38:39,062 --> 00:38:41,902
Speaker 3: Yeah. There is though, that fear, isn't there, that maybe

791
00:38:41,902 --> 00:38:45,381
Speaker 3: this sleep advice is tinged with maganists. How it makes

792
00:38:45,382 --> 00:38:47,102
Speaker 3: you sort of start thinking about.

793
00:38:46,862 --> 00:38:51,582
Speaker 2: All of it exactly, it's time for recommendation, Stacy, what

794
00:38:51,661 --> 00:38:52,381
Speaker 2: have you got for us?

795
00:38:52,542 --> 00:38:55,502
Speaker 3: I feel quite smug about this recommendation, so imparting it

796
00:38:55,542 --> 00:38:57,341
Speaker 3: so you can all feel smug when you recommend it

797
00:38:57,342 --> 00:38:59,741
Speaker 3: to someone else. So my daughter gets a free book

798
00:38:59,822 --> 00:39:04,102
Speaker 3: every month from Dolly Parton. What the Dolly Parton sends

799
00:39:04,142 --> 00:39:06,502
Speaker 3: my well, not personally, I imagine she has someone at

800
00:39:06,502 --> 00:39:08,861
Speaker 3: the postal service that does this for her. But she

801
00:39:09,221 --> 00:39:11,942
Speaker 3: has a free book gifting service. They have it all

802
00:39:11,982 --> 00:39:14,341
Speaker 3: around the world. It's in the US, UK, everywhere, and

803
00:39:14,382 --> 00:39:16,342
Speaker 3: you can just sign your child up and they'll send

804
00:39:16,422 --> 00:39:19,341
Speaker 3: you out in the mail a age appropriate book for

805
00:39:19,382 --> 00:39:23,102
Speaker 3: your child each month. That is brilliant. It's the best.

806
00:39:23,181 --> 00:39:25,741
Speaker 3: My daughter loves getting mail every month. I love that

807
00:39:25,822 --> 00:39:27,542
Speaker 3: I don't have to buy her a book every month,

808
00:39:27,622 --> 00:39:29,261
Speaker 3: like it's the best service. So you just have to

809
00:39:29,302 --> 00:39:32,422
Speaker 3: find out if it's in your little area. It's called

810
00:39:32,622 --> 00:39:36,102
Speaker 3: Dolly Parton's Imagination Library. I love Dolly Parton.

811
00:39:36,582 --> 00:39:37,622
Speaker 1: She's good egg.

812
00:39:37,822 --> 00:39:38,741
Speaker 2: She's a very good egg.

813
00:39:38,741 --> 00:39:40,221
Speaker 1: You couldn't love her more. And then she goes and

814
00:39:40,261 --> 00:39:40,661
Speaker 1: does that.

815
00:39:40,781 --> 00:39:42,022
Speaker 2: Amelia, what's your recommendation?

816
00:39:42,502 --> 00:39:44,782
Speaker 3: My recommendation is to do with learning how to read.

817
00:39:45,142 --> 00:39:47,382
Speaker 3: I have a child, two children learning how to read,

818
00:39:47,462 --> 00:39:52,902
Speaker 3: and the books that the school sends home are interminably

819
00:39:52,942 --> 00:39:57,702
Speaker 3: boring and I'm not aspiring a love of reading. My brother,

820
00:39:57,701 --> 00:40:00,542
Speaker 3: who lives in the UK, turned me on to Julia

821
00:40:00,622 --> 00:40:05,181
Speaker 3: Donaldson's Songbirds Phonics Storytelling Collection. Julia Donaldson, you may know

822
00:40:05,382 --> 00:40:10,142
Speaker 3: from such classics as Gruffalo and Zog. She has written

823
00:40:10,181 --> 00:40:14,301
Speaker 3: sixty books where almost every word is phonically decodable, and

824
00:40:14,342 --> 00:40:16,342
Speaker 3: they are also somehow interesting stories.

825
00:40:16,422 --> 00:40:17,982
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you mean phonically.

826
00:40:18,342 --> 00:40:21,181
Speaker 3: Jesse, I can't get into it with You wouldn't understand it.

827
00:40:21,221 --> 00:40:22,701
Speaker 1: But we're not at the phonic stage.

828
00:40:23,582 --> 00:40:26,302
Speaker 3: You won't understand. But the point is there are books

829
00:40:26,302 --> 00:40:28,461
Speaker 3: for kids learning how to read that are actually fun

830
00:40:28,502 --> 00:40:29,181
Speaker 3: for them to read.

831
00:40:29,462 --> 00:40:30,341
Speaker 1: Oh I love it.

832
00:40:30,422 --> 00:40:34,221
Speaker 2: All right, Okay, my recommendation is similar to yours, Stacey.

833
00:40:34,342 --> 00:40:36,741
Speaker 2: There are kind of different versions in different states, but

834
00:40:36,781 --> 00:40:38,181
Speaker 2: look up to see if there's one near you. But

835
00:40:38,261 --> 00:40:41,062
Speaker 2: in Sydney there's one called Bubbadesk, and I am recommending

836
00:40:41,062 --> 00:40:44,622
Speaker 2: this place because this is where my twin sister essentially

837
00:40:44,741 --> 00:40:47,502
Speaker 2: just wrote her book and it is a coworking space

838
00:40:47,542 --> 00:40:50,062
Speaker 2: with more and more people sort of freelancing or even

839
00:40:50,142 --> 00:40:53,622
Speaker 2: if you're on maternity leave or you work three days

840
00:40:53,622 --> 00:40:56,142
Speaker 2: a week or whatever, and there is a day or

841
00:40:56,142 --> 00:40:58,341
Speaker 2: an afternoon where you need to get some work done

842
00:40:58,582 --> 00:41:01,901
Speaker 2: and you don't have childcare options, you can take your

843
00:41:01,942 --> 00:41:04,741
Speaker 2: child to Bubbadesk. There's another one in.

844
00:41:04,781 --> 00:41:06,582
Speaker 3: No if you can say what I think you're going

845
00:41:06,661 --> 00:41:09,942
Speaker 3: to say and you can drop the child off and work.

846
00:41:10,102 --> 00:41:12,381
Speaker 2: Yes, So it's like a chug, like they're right there,

847
00:41:12,382 --> 00:41:15,181
Speaker 2: they're upstairs. You get a little monitor so you can

848
00:41:15,221 --> 00:41:17,422
Speaker 2: just see what they're doing. They have like a system

849
00:41:17,462 --> 00:41:21,222
Speaker 2: where they'll be like Luna's playing with a block, Luna

850
00:41:21,342 --> 00:41:22,302
Speaker 2: just date her lunch.

851
00:41:22,102 --> 00:41:23,822
Speaker 1: And I'm like lies, they.

852
00:41:26,822 --> 00:41:32,542
Speaker 2: Tuna morning bullshit, and then they'll have like you can, yeah,

853
00:41:32,582 --> 00:41:35,102
Speaker 2: get the little baby monitor, see what she's doing. If

854
00:41:35,102 --> 00:41:36,741
Speaker 2: you want, you can go up and check on them.

855
00:41:36,982 --> 00:41:39,741
Speaker 2: I often find better knowledge. They're just like moms here

856
00:41:39,781 --> 00:41:43,701
Speaker 2: what But it's brilliant and it's all parents that are

857
00:41:43,781 --> 00:41:46,142
Speaker 2: kind of doing it. There's even the Bubbajesque that I

858
00:41:46,181 --> 00:41:47,901
Speaker 2: went to. There was a gym attached to it because

859
00:41:47,902 --> 00:41:48,701
Speaker 2: they were like, you can go.

860
00:41:48,661 --> 00:41:50,982
Speaker 1: To I don't have any excuses.

861
00:41:50,422 --> 00:41:51,181
Speaker 3: Like I know.

862
00:41:51,382 --> 00:41:53,461
Speaker 2: So it's really really good and there is an equal

863
00:41:53,502 --> 00:41:55,301
Speaker 2: amount what I love about it too, equal amount of

864
00:41:55,422 --> 00:41:58,182
Speaker 2: dads and moms there. So look up at co working

865
00:41:58,221 --> 00:41:59,222
Speaker 2: space with kids.

866
00:41:59,382 --> 00:42:00,582
Speaker 1: I didn't even know they existed.

867
00:42:01,221 --> 00:42:03,102
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us today.

868
00:42:03,302 --> 00:42:05,382
Speaker 1: We will be back next Saturday.

869
00:42:05,422 --> 00:42:12,022
Speaker 2: Bye