1 00:00:05,799 --> 00:00:13,079 Speaker 1: You're listening to A Mom with mea podcast. Welcome back everyone. 2 00:00:13,359 --> 00:00:15,959 Speaker 1: I'm a Shani Dante and this is but are You 3 00:00:15,999 --> 00:00:19,039 Speaker 1: Happy A Mother Me? A mental health podcast for people 4 00:00:19,039 --> 00:00:21,839 Speaker 1: who look calm on the outside, but really they've got 5 00:00:21,879 --> 00:00:23,839 Speaker 1: about ten tabs open on the inside. 6 00:00:24,279 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 2: And I'm clinical psychologist doctor Anastasia Hernus. Now, if you've 7 00:00:28,479 --> 00:00:30,959 Speaker 2: clicked on this episode, chances are that you want to 8 00:00:30,999 --> 00:00:35,039 Speaker 2: better understand borderline personality disorder and perhaps some of the 9 00:00:35,079 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 2: myths surrounding it. Now, this is actually a topic that 10 00:00:37,639 --> 00:00:40,759 Speaker 2: I am really passionate about, and I'm keen to unpack 11 00:00:40,839 --> 00:00:43,119 Speaker 2: and bust some of the myths and give you all 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 2: a better understanding of what BPD actually is. 13 00:00:46,199 --> 00:00:48,799 Speaker 1: Today, we're going to be diving into the clinical definition 14 00:00:48,919 --> 00:00:53,839 Speaker 1: of borderline personality disorder, the symptoms of BPD, the biggest 15 00:00:53,879 --> 00:01:00,159 Speaker 1: misconceptions of it, and how to best treat it. So 16 00:01:00,279 --> 00:01:04,279 Speaker 1: it's time for another myth busting episode. We love unpacking 17 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: topics that you know that often gets misunderstood and for 18 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 1: anyone tuned in for the first time, just context. Each 19 00:01:10,879 --> 00:01:14,879 Speaker 1: season we always choose one topic to mythbust, and today 20 00:01:14,919 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about borderline personality disorder, and 21 00:01:18,719 --> 00:01:21,199 Speaker 1: I'm really keen to unpack this more, but before we 22 00:01:21,479 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: get into it, I'm actually curious to start off with 23 00:01:24,759 --> 00:01:27,159 Speaker 1: what actually is a personality disorder? 24 00:01:27,519 --> 00:01:30,519 Speaker 2: It is a good starting point, good question. So a 25 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 2: personality disorder is essentially a mental health condition, And when 26 00:01:35,599 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 2: we look at diagnosing a personality disorder, we're essentially looking 27 00:01:39,679 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: for patterns in the way that a person thinks, feels, 28 00:01:45,239 --> 00:01:48,919 Speaker 2: and behaves that can be really quite dysfunctional for them. 29 00:01:49,519 --> 00:01:53,039 Speaker 2: So we look at these kind of chronic and pervasive, 30 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:55,999 Speaker 2: unhealthy patterns that might be relating to how a person 31 00:01:56,119 --> 00:01:59,639 Speaker 2: views themselves, how they view the world, are the people 32 00:01:59,879 --> 00:02:03,399 Speaker 2: or the relationships that they have. The key thing here 33 00:02:03,479 --> 00:02:08,759 Speaker 2: is that we see these difficulties play out across different 34 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 2: domains in a person's life, and they really are quite 35 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:17,119 Speaker 2: sort of chronic and complex conditions. So for anyone listening, 36 00:02:17,159 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 2: this is not just about personality traits or feeling like, 37 00:02:21,439 --> 00:02:23,999 Speaker 2: you know, you're maybe on the kind of slight neurotic 38 00:02:24,079 --> 00:02:26,439 Speaker 2: end of the personality spectrum or anything like that. We're 39 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:29,479 Speaker 2: really looking at these kind of deeply ingreened patterns. They 40 00:02:29,479 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 2: typically start in the adolescent years. 41 00:02:31,839 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 3: We wouldn't diagnose. 42 00:02:32,799 --> 00:02:36,159 Speaker 2: A personality disorder typically before the age of sixteen. Why 43 00:02:36,319 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 2: that well, because personality disorders are said to develop through 44 00:02:42,559 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 2: a person's life. They're often grounded in some sort of trauma, 45 00:02:48,479 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: whether that be kind of early life attachment trauma, whether 46 00:02:52,119 --> 00:02:56,759 Speaker 2: that be through specific traumatic experiences that someone's had. But 47 00:02:56,799 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: they're patterns that develop over a person's life. 48 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:03,119 Speaker 3: They are also said to be quite. 49 00:03:02,959 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 2: Chronic, do require intensive treatment, and so for that reason 50 00:03:08,079 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 2: we want to be really careful when applying a diagnosis 51 00:03:11,119 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 2: of a personality disorder. Hence why we wouldn't want to 52 00:03:13,559 --> 00:03:16,319 Speaker 2: be applying it typically before a person reaches adulthood, but 53 00:03:16,359 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 2: sort of sixteen would perhaps be the earliest point at 54 00:03:19,559 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 2: which we look at applying personality disorders lack BPD, so. 55 00:03:23,839 --> 00:03:27,879 Speaker 1: With personality disorders like other different types of it, because 56 00:03:27,879 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: it sounds like quite broad too, Yes. 57 00:03:30,279 --> 00:03:32,159 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely absolutely so. 58 00:03:32,199 --> 00:03:36,239 Speaker 2: In our diagnostic manuals, personality disorders are actually broken down 59 00:03:36,359 --> 00:03:41,599 Speaker 2: into three categories. So the first category or cluster of 60 00:03:41,639 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 2: personalities is a cluster we would refer to as sort 61 00:03:44,879 --> 00:03:49,239 Speaker 2: of the personality types that are more odd or eccentric. So, 62 00:03:49,359 --> 00:03:52,799 Speaker 2: for example, we could diagnose a paranoid personality disorder, a 63 00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:56,919 Speaker 2: schizoid personality disorder or a schizotypal personality disorder. 64 00:03:57,319 --> 00:03:59,279 Speaker 1: So that's our different rues. 65 00:03:59,559 --> 00:04:00,719 Speaker 3: Yes, that's our cluster A. 66 00:04:00,999 --> 00:04:05,239 Speaker 2: So schitzoid is where we're looking at a personality manifestation 67 00:04:05,319 --> 00:04:10,559 Speaker 2: where a person is quite emotionally detached, socially disinterested. They 68 00:04:10,599 --> 00:04:15,439 Speaker 2: may come across somewhat sort of cold and without emotional affect. 69 00:04:16,679 --> 00:04:19,999 Speaker 2: A schizotypal personality disorder is somewhat different. This is where 70 00:04:19,999 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 2: we see people who may have more kind of fantastical 71 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,239 Speaker 2: or magical thinking. They have some sort of odd and 72 00:04:27,319 --> 00:04:31,239 Speaker 2: Etcric belief systems that may come about. So that's our 73 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:36,999 Speaker 2: cluster A. Cluster B is our more dramatic and emotional 74 00:04:37,079 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 2: sort of category of clusters of personality disorders. This is 75 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:43,439 Speaker 2: where borderline personality disorder fits in. It's a cluster by, 76 00:04:43,679 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 2: and there is a few other cluster B. So a 77 00:04:45,719 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 2: histrionic personality disorder narcissistic personality. 78 00:04:49,359 --> 00:04:51,759 Speaker 3: Disorder also falls in this category. 79 00:04:52,079 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: And our antisocial personality disorders, and then our third cluster 80 00:04:56,999 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 2: of personality disorders are our more anxious, fearful and avoidance 81 00:05:01,239 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 2: sort of personality manifestations. One personality disorder we see here 82 00:05:07,439 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: is our avoidant personality disorder. Now this is different from 83 00:05:10,559 --> 00:05:15,199 Speaker 2: just avoiding certain situations. Again, we're looking at patterns across 84 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:20,999 Speaker 2: a person's life of extreme dysfunction where avoidance occurs. We 85 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 2: can also diagnose a dependent personality disorder, so someone who 86 00:05:24,519 --> 00:05:27,999 Speaker 2: feels chronically dependent on others and without a sense of 87 00:05:28,039 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 2: self and autonomy. And then finally OCPD, so our obsessive 88 00:05:32,519 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: compulsive personality disorder right not to be confused with OCD. 89 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, which which were on. 90 00:05:42,959 --> 00:05:43,559 Speaker 3: Last season. 91 00:05:44,119 --> 00:05:49,319 Speaker 2: So obsessive compulsive personality disorder is again it's a personality 92 00:05:49,319 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: manifestation where someone has somewhat of an obsession with control 93 00:05:54,519 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 2: order perfectionism, and we see these kind of rigid and 94 00:05:57,759 --> 00:06:00,119 Speaker 2: inflexible patterns play out throughout their life. 95 00:06:01,519 --> 00:06:04,079 Speaker 1: There's not like there's so many different types. And I 96 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: think for me, I'm sitting with it, I'm like wow, Like, 97 00:06:06,679 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: does that mean people who do have narcissism or they've 98 00:06:10,479 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: experienced complex trauma, like they're more likely to have a 99 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: personality disorder too? Like, is do they all kind of 100 00:06:18,519 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 1: link together in a way. I know that doesn't sound 101 00:06:20,879 --> 00:06:22,879 Speaker 1: the way that I want to say it, but there 102 00:06:22,879 --> 00:06:25,079 Speaker 1: seems like there's a lot of connections. 103 00:06:24,879 --> 00:06:28,519 Speaker 2: Between the personality disorder. Yeah, there can be, there can be. 104 00:06:28,599 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 2: And again, like I think you said something key, which 105 00:06:30,959 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 2: was you know, someone who perhaps has narcissism. This is 106 00:06:33,919 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 2: where we differentiate between a personality trait. You know, we 107 00:06:38,199 --> 00:06:43,999 Speaker 2: can be narcissistic without having a narcissistic personality disorder. Yeah. 108 00:06:44,079 --> 00:06:46,879 Speaker 2: When we're looking at personality disorders, and look, there's debate 109 00:06:46,919 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 2: in the literature about whether they should even be called 110 00:06:48,999 --> 00:06:51,759 Speaker 2: personality disorders because I think it does a bit of 111 00:06:51,799 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: a disservice to really what we're talking about. We're talking 112 00:06:54,599 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: about people who have these kind of chronic dysfunctional patterns 113 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 2: in their life that cause them a lot of emotional 114 00:07:00,759 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: distress and a lot of relationship difficulties. 115 00:07:04,319 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: So with you mentioned borderline personality disorder was under the 116 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:12,759 Speaker 1: cluster B the second one. So what actually is then 117 00:07:12,799 --> 00:07:17,279 Speaker 1: a borderline personality disorder? Like, yeah, there's one extra word 118 00:07:17,319 --> 00:07:20,119 Speaker 1: in that, you know. Yeah, again there's clearly a difference. 119 00:07:20,279 --> 00:07:22,079 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, a specific type. 120 00:07:22,119 --> 00:07:24,919 Speaker 2: So borllline personality disorder is one of our more common 121 00:07:24,959 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 2: types of personality disorders. 122 00:07:26,559 --> 00:07:28,799 Speaker 3: I'll say that to start, we're looking at about sort 123 00:07:28,839 --> 00:07:29,359 Speaker 3: of I. 124 00:07:29,399 --> 00:07:32,959 Speaker 2: Think statistics vary, but around two to five percent of 125 00:07:32,999 --> 00:07:36,119 Speaker 2: the population actually can be diagnosed with BPD. 126 00:07:36,439 --> 00:07:39,399 Speaker 3: Right, But for someone to be diagnosed. 127 00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:42,599 Speaker 2: With borderline personality disorder, we're looking for a few key 128 00:07:42,679 --> 00:07:47,199 Speaker 2: features to be present. So a person often has intense 129 00:07:47,319 --> 00:07:52,159 Speaker 2: and unstable relationships, now that's relationships with other people, but 130 00:07:52,239 --> 00:07:56,399 Speaker 2: also an unstable sense of a relationship with themselves. We 131 00:07:56,519 --> 00:08:00,879 Speaker 2: often see that they have these patterns of chronic emotion dysregulation. 132 00:08:01,079 --> 00:08:03,679 Speaker 4: They try really hard to regulate. 133 00:08:03,239 --> 00:08:07,039 Speaker 2: And manage their emotions, but they struggle, and there's often 134 00:08:07,039 --> 00:08:10,759 Speaker 2: a kind of chronic fear of abandonment, feeling like people 135 00:08:10,919 --> 00:08:14,599 Speaker 2: may leave them, discard them, reject them. 136 00:08:14,959 --> 00:08:19,519 Speaker 1: It's interesting too, because I know for me, there's things 137 00:08:19,519 --> 00:08:21,599 Speaker 1: that you're saying where I can see myself in it, 138 00:08:21,639 --> 00:08:24,039 Speaker 1: being like, oh yeah, like I've definitely had avoidant issues 139 00:08:24,119 --> 00:08:26,759 Speaker 1: or anxious attachment. Like I think it's very easy to 140 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:29,839 Speaker 1: just kind of put ourselves into these categories. But also, 141 00:08:29,959 --> 00:08:32,799 Speaker 1: like what I'm hearing is it's the chronic element, Like 142 00:08:32,839 --> 00:08:37,799 Speaker 1: there's really ingrained patterns, which I mean assume like chronic 143 00:08:37,839 --> 00:08:40,519 Speaker 1: would be long term. Is that kind of what I mean? 144 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,919 Speaker 2: Ye, yes, long term, which is again why we are 145 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:47,359 Speaker 2: not quick to diagnose a personality disorder. Yeah, and we 146 00:08:47,439 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 2: want to see signs and evidence that these patterns have 147 00:08:50,359 --> 00:08:53,879 Speaker 2: been present for some time in a person's life. They 148 00:08:53,919 --> 00:08:57,159 Speaker 2: don't just apply to one relationship. So it's not like, 149 00:08:57,239 --> 00:09:01,799 Speaker 2: for example, a person has had one intense or unstable relationship. 150 00:09:01,839 --> 00:09:04,039 Speaker 2: But this is a pattern that seems to play out 151 00:09:04,039 --> 00:09:05,399 Speaker 2: with a lot of different people. 152 00:09:05,239 --> 00:09:05,999 Speaker 3: In their life. 153 00:09:06,319 --> 00:09:09,639 Speaker 2: That these fears of abandonment don't just relate to one person. 154 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 2: They relate to friends, to family, to their boss. You know, 155 00:09:13,199 --> 00:09:16,039 Speaker 2: it's chronic. I guess what I'm saying. Chronic. I'm also 156 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:19,519 Speaker 2: mean meaning like it occurs across different domains in a 157 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:20,279 Speaker 2: person's life. 158 00:09:20,359 --> 00:09:24,599 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So why does borderline personality disort exist? 159 00:09:25,199 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 3: Yeah? Where it comes from now it develops. Yeah, it's 160 00:09:28,599 --> 00:09:29,239 Speaker 3: a good question. 161 00:09:29,319 --> 00:09:33,399 Speaker 2: And I mean, as a psychologist, whenever we are working 162 00:09:33,439 --> 00:09:37,399 Speaker 2: with a client, we always work towards constructing what we 163 00:09:37,479 --> 00:09:38,279 Speaker 2: call a formulation. 164 00:09:38,839 --> 00:09:39,359 Speaker 3: So this is. 165 00:09:39,359 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 2: Essentially understanding why this person is experiencing this difficulty at 166 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,279 Speaker 2: this point in time and trying to put all the 167 00:09:46,359 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 2: pieces together. We have different kind of frameworks and models 168 00:09:49,319 --> 00:09:52,599 Speaker 2: for being able to do that, and so with borderline 169 00:09:52,639 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 2: personality disorder, we apply what's called the biosocial model. So 170 00:09:57,319 --> 00:10:00,119 Speaker 2: what this essentially means is that there's a combination of 171 00:10:00,199 --> 00:10:03,879 Speaker 2: two factors that have come together to create some long 172 00:10:03,959 --> 00:10:07,279 Speaker 2: term difficult for a person. On the one hand, we 173 00:10:07,359 --> 00:10:12,999 Speaker 2: have the biological elements. So often people with borderline personality 174 00:10:12,999 --> 00:10:18,919 Speaker 2: disorder will have some degree of biologically driven emotional sensitivity. 175 00:10:19,919 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 2: They are more emotionally sensitive people just in terms of 176 00:10:23,119 --> 00:10:24,399 Speaker 2: how their system works. 177 00:10:24,599 --> 00:10:24,879 Speaker 1: Yep. 178 00:10:25,199 --> 00:10:26,359 Speaker 3: Now it's really important to. 179 00:10:26,319 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 2: State that sensitive does not equal bad or weak or 180 00:10:30,279 --> 00:10:31,119 Speaker 2: anything like that. 181 00:10:31,319 --> 00:10:33,639 Speaker 1: So easy to do that, right, yes, Yeah. 182 00:10:33,399 --> 00:10:37,599 Speaker 2: And often people who are more emotionally sensitive may have 183 00:10:37,639 --> 00:10:40,119 Speaker 2: had experiences where that kind of word has been like 184 00:10:40,639 --> 00:10:43,879 Speaker 2: thrown at them and used against them, like, oh, don't 185 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:46,239 Speaker 2: be so sensitive, Oh you're too sensitive, we need to 186 00:10:46,239 --> 00:10:50,759 Speaker 2: get over it, etc. Right, so this emotional sensitivity can 187 00:10:50,839 --> 00:10:54,359 Speaker 2: actually be, you know, a hard thing to deal with, 188 00:10:54,439 --> 00:10:57,359 Speaker 2: but also a really positive thing. People who emotionally sensitive 189 00:10:57,399 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 2: are quite in tune with others. 190 00:10:59,199 --> 00:11:00,999 Speaker 4: They can read the room really well. 191 00:11:01,039 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 2: They've got a good sense of knowing their own emotional 192 00:11:03,599 --> 00:11:06,239 Speaker 2: system and being able to kind of recognize other people's 193 00:11:06,279 --> 00:11:07,519 Speaker 2: emotional patterns as well. 194 00:11:08,239 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 1: So when you talk about biology, are you talking about 195 00:11:12,359 --> 00:11:15,879 Speaker 1: genetics too, or is that literally just how they're. 196 00:11:15,639 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 3: Just made up? 197 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it can be a sort of genetic thing that, like, emotionally, 198 00:11:21,519 --> 00:11:24,279 Speaker 2: where we sit on that spectrum of sensitivity can be 199 00:11:24,359 --> 00:11:28,279 Speaker 2: determined by genetics, but just sort of biologically in terms 200 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:31,719 Speaker 2: of out actual makeup. Some people are more emotionally sensitive 201 00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 2: than others. 202 00:11:32,359 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. 203 00:11:32,919 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 2: I like to nerd out with graphs and stuff, right, 204 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:37,519 Speaker 2: I'm so excited. 205 00:11:37,599 --> 00:11:38,039 Speaker 3: I love the. 206 00:11:37,999 --> 00:11:40,759 Speaker 2: Science and I think one of the things I mean, 207 00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:42,399 Speaker 2: I want to draw you a graph. I'm going to 208 00:11:42,399 --> 00:11:44,639 Speaker 2: show you something, and this is actually a graph I'll 209 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,879 Speaker 2: often draw out to my clients to kind of explain 210 00:11:46,999 --> 00:11:49,359 Speaker 2: how their emotional system might work. And I'm going to 211 00:11:49,399 --> 00:11:51,519 Speaker 2: say this is not just for balldline personality disorder. 212 00:11:51,999 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 3: That's gonna apply for anyone. 213 00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:56,919 Speaker 2: Who feels like they are perhaps more on that emotionally 214 00:11:56,999 --> 00:12:00,359 Speaker 2: sensitive end of the spectrum. So let me get my 215 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,999 Speaker 2: pen and paper and draw for you listeners. If you 216 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 2: want to get a better view, We've got to YouTube 217 00:12:10,879 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 2: videos as well that you. 218 00:12:11,919 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 3: Can get a better view of what I'm drawing. 219 00:12:15,719 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 4: But I'll explain it out loud as i'm doing it. 220 00:12:17,799 --> 00:12:20,999 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So here's the graph, right, just like 221 00:12:21,079 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 2: the groundwork for the graph. Yeah, so if this kind 222 00:12:26,159 --> 00:12:29,399 Speaker 2: of represents like emotions, emotion. 223 00:12:29,439 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 3: And this represents time. 224 00:12:32,359 --> 00:12:35,919 Speaker 2: For people who are not so emotionally sensitive, they go 225 00:12:35,999 --> 00:12:39,999 Speaker 2: through their day and they have different emotional experiences. They're 226 00:12:39,999 --> 00:12:43,039 Speaker 2: go on along, something might happen that creates. 227 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:43,399 Speaker 3: A bit of a spike. 228 00:12:44,079 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 2: Okay, they get a bit distressed, the spike comes, it 229 00:12:47,159 --> 00:12:50,159 Speaker 2: lasts for some period of time, and then they go 230 00:12:50,239 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 2: back down and they go about their day. 231 00:12:52,479 --> 00:12:53,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. 232 00:12:53,999 --> 00:12:58,879 Speaker 2: For people who have greater emotional sensitivity, they go about 233 00:12:58,919 --> 00:13:03,399 Speaker 2: their day, they might experience the same trigger, but their 234 00:13:03,439 --> 00:13:05,799 Speaker 2: emotional system doesn't bring them to this level. 235 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 3: It brings them much higher. 236 00:13:08,119 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 2: Okay, So the first thing is there is a greater reactivity, 237 00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 2: emotional reactivity to triggers. 238 00:13:14,119 --> 00:13:15,399 Speaker 3: Okay, so they're higher. 239 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 2: But what happens now is it takes them longer to 240 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 2: come back down to baseline. 241 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: Like kind of regulate back to Yes, yeah. 242 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 2: There is a slower process of coming back down to 243 00:13:27,359 --> 00:13:31,159 Speaker 2: their baseline than someone who is not as emotionally sensitive. Now, 244 00:13:31,199 --> 00:13:34,799 Speaker 2: what happens in the meantime is the next trigger occurs. 245 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:38,159 Speaker 2: Now this person's already heightened. So what we see, is 246 00:13:38,199 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 2: that a person with emotional sensitivity can end up yo 247 00:13:41,199 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 2: yoing in this upper end of emotion dysregulation, making it 248 00:13:45,959 --> 00:13:49,159 Speaker 2: very hard for them or harder for them to regulate 249 00:13:49,199 --> 00:13:49,879 Speaker 2: their experience. 250 00:13:50,199 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: So is that why, because I mean, I'm just thinking 251 00:13:52,719 --> 00:13:58,879 Speaker 1: about me, because like in the context of being quite sensitive, 252 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:01,759 Speaker 1: because I can definitely be quite sensitive, Like there's no 253 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: shame in that for me. Is that why you get 254 00:14:04,199 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: exhaust it all the time? 255 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:09,519 Speaker 2: Potentially you're having to manage a lot of stuff that's 256 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:11,799 Speaker 2: happening up here and then the next trigger and the 257 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 2: next trigger. 258 00:14:12,359 --> 00:14:14,239 Speaker 3: Then that can be really hard work. Yeah. 259 00:14:14,279 --> 00:14:18,239 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Oh my gosh, this graph is really helpful. Thank you. 260 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:21,559 Speaker 1: That's really good. So that's the biology side of things. 261 00:14:21,599 --> 00:14:23,079 Speaker 1: There was another part too. 262 00:14:23,119 --> 00:14:24,839 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, biosocial model. 263 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:30,279 Speaker 2: So the other part is influences from other people, and specifically, 264 00:14:30,279 --> 00:14:32,679 Speaker 2: what we find in borderline personality disorder is that there 265 00:14:32,759 --> 00:14:42,559 Speaker 2: has been a history of invalidation. So invalidation is basically dismissing, minimizing, 266 00:14:42,799 --> 00:14:47,159 Speaker 2: pushing aside someone's emotional experiences. Now, what I want to 267 00:14:47,239 --> 00:14:51,439 Speaker 2: highlight here is that this can often happen from parents 268 00:14:51,479 --> 00:14:53,839 Speaker 2: when a young person is growing up, but it's not 269 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:55,439 Speaker 2: necessarily intentional. 270 00:14:56,039 --> 00:14:58,119 Speaker 3: Ah, If a young person. 271 00:14:57,839 --> 00:15:01,639 Speaker 2: Is growing up with an emotionally reactive system, right, they're 272 00:15:01,679 --> 00:15:06,239 Speaker 2: emotionally sensitive, they've got big feelings. Parents may not know 273 00:15:06,959 --> 00:15:10,719 Speaker 2: how to parent a child with big feelings, and so 274 00:15:10,759 --> 00:15:15,319 Speaker 2: what we sometimes see is that unintentionally, parents have actually 275 00:15:15,359 --> 00:15:18,999 Speaker 2: created this environment where they have invalidated a young person's feelings, 276 00:15:18,999 --> 00:15:22,519 Speaker 2: and so they've grown up in this environment of invalidation. 277 00:15:22,599 --> 00:15:24,639 Speaker 1: And like the parents didn't realize. 278 00:15:24,839 --> 00:15:27,279 Speaker 2: No, parents sometimes actually think they're doing the right thing 279 00:15:27,439 --> 00:15:30,479 Speaker 2: right by like helping minimize feelings to help a young 280 00:15:30,519 --> 00:15:34,719 Speaker 2: person deal with us. Yeah, but this invalidation can sound 281 00:15:34,799 --> 00:15:36,839 Speaker 2: like lots of different things. You know, if ten year 282 00:15:36,879 --> 00:15:39,679 Speaker 2: old little Sally is coming home from school and she's like, 283 00:15:39,799 --> 00:15:42,039 Speaker 2: oh no, my friends don't want to sit with me anymore, 284 00:15:42,079 --> 00:15:45,559 Speaker 2: and she's crying, you know, parents might be like, it's okay, 285 00:15:45,599 --> 00:15:49,399 Speaker 2: you'll find new friends, or like, you know, suck it up. 286 00:15:49,439 --> 00:15:51,559 Speaker 2: You don't need to cry, It's okay, carry on, you're 287 00:15:51,599 --> 00:15:54,119 Speaker 2: at school to learn anyway, it's not about friends, right, 288 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:57,639 Speaker 2: So these comments can all actually be well intentioned, but 289 00:15:57,679 --> 00:16:00,079 Speaker 2: they have the impact of communicating the message that your 290 00:16:00,119 --> 00:16:01,519 Speaker 2: emotions are not important. 291 00:16:02,199 --> 00:16:04,639 Speaker 3: Get rid of them. Or push them aside. Yeah. 292 00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:07,799 Speaker 1: Wow, it's so interesting because, yeah, we so often when 293 00:16:07,799 --> 00:16:10,319 Speaker 1: we reflect on like childhood memories and stuff, it's so 294 00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:12,679 Speaker 1: easy to just go to, oh, my parents did that, 295 00:16:12,759 --> 00:16:14,759 Speaker 1: but we don't actually stop to think about, oh, that's 296 00:16:14,879 --> 00:16:18,119 Speaker 1: just my makeup, like this is just in the biology 297 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:21,719 Speaker 1: of me, you know, like we don't actually say that, yes. Yeah, 298 00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:23,399 Speaker 1: so it's a good perspective to also have. 299 00:16:23,839 --> 00:16:26,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this kind of invalidation can relate to what 300 00:16:26,799 --> 00:16:30,799 Speaker 2: we call attachment trauma. So the way we have an 301 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:33,999 Speaker 2: attachment bond to our parents, which then influences how we 302 00:16:34,039 --> 00:16:36,799 Speaker 2: attach to other people in life as well. So we 303 00:16:36,799 --> 00:16:40,199 Speaker 2: can have these attachment traumas, these emotional traumas. But of course, 304 00:16:40,479 --> 00:16:43,639 Speaker 2: again in the context of ballline personality disorder, we may 305 00:16:43,719 --> 00:16:48,359 Speaker 2: also see many people who have had significant experiences of 306 00:16:48,439 --> 00:16:51,119 Speaker 2: trauma in their life, whether that be a single event 307 00:16:51,319 --> 00:16:54,599 Speaker 2: or a current events of trauma that have then potentially 308 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:57,839 Speaker 2: been invalidated as well. So this all exists, you know, 309 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:02,279 Speaker 2: with different degrees. But it's this intersection of being emotionally 310 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: sensitive and then having this kind of trauma intersect with 311 00:17:07,679 --> 00:17:11,599 Speaker 2: that emotional sensitivity that creates these patterns. For a person 312 00:17:11,679 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 2: where they feel chronically dysregulated and find it hard to 313 00:17:14,639 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 2: move through the world. 314 00:17:16,519 --> 00:17:19,479 Speaker 1: That would be a lot to sit with as well. Yeah, 315 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:23,239 Speaker 1: so with the like with borderline personality disorder, like what 316 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,839 Speaker 1: are the signs that you might have one? Like obviously 317 00:17:26,879 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 1: without self diagnosing, because they're not about self diagnosing here, 318 00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: but just like bringing that awareness right. 319 00:17:32,199 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so to diagnose borderline personality disorder, we look 320 00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 2: to the DSM, which is our diagnostic manual, and we're 321 00:17:40,439 --> 00:17:42,999 Speaker 2: looking at nine criteria. So for a person to be 322 00:17:43,039 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 2: diagnosed with BPD, they need to meet at least five 323 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:47,599 Speaker 2: of the nine criteria. So I'll read them out so 324 00:17:47,639 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 2: people can get a sense of what these are. So 325 00:17:50,959 --> 00:17:53,839 Speaker 2: again we're looking at this pervasive pattern of instability and 326 00:17:53,879 --> 00:17:57,559 Speaker 2: relationships with a person's sense of self, et cetera. So 327 00:17:57,599 --> 00:18:02,079 Speaker 2: the criteria are one kind of a person exhibits frantic 328 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:07,839 Speaker 2: efforts to avoid either real or perceived abandonment. So this 329 00:18:07,919 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 2: can look very much like a like a push pull dynamic. 330 00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 2: People can end up being very clingy to other people, 331 00:18:13,759 --> 00:18:17,599 Speaker 2: they can push people away, right, plays out in relationships. Yeah, 332 00:18:17,639 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 2: so that's the first one. The second is a pattern 333 00:18:20,479 --> 00:18:26,039 Speaker 2: of unstable or intense inter personal relationships characterized by idealization 334 00:18:26,239 --> 00:18:30,079 Speaker 2: and devaluation. So what that means is that a person 335 00:18:30,199 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 2: may very quickly attach to someone. This could be a partner, 336 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:37,279 Speaker 2: a friend, anyone. If very quickly feel attached and feel 337 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 2: like they're the best person ever. This person gets me 338 00:18:39,919 --> 00:18:45,079 Speaker 2: great friends. The relationship feels very intense, very fast. However, 339 00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 2: if there's a rupture in that dynamic, the person with 340 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder can also be very quick to push 341 00:18:51,959 --> 00:18:55,519 Speaker 2: that person away and want to put distance between them 342 00:18:55,599 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 2: and the other person. 343 00:18:57,239 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: And then with this as well, because kind of coming 344 00:18:59,199 --> 00:19:01,519 Speaker 1: back to what you mentioned about the chronic element, so 345 00:19:01,599 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: this would be happening not just in one relationship. Yes, 346 00:19:05,199 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: it's a cranny, yeah, Okay. 347 00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 2: Often when I'm working with someone who has ballerline personality disorder, 348 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: it is something that at times may also play out 349 00:19:12,639 --> 00:19:15,599 Speaker 2: in the therapy room where a person feels very quickly 350 00:19:15,679 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 2: attached to me as their therapist. But it can sometimes 351 00:19:19,239 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 2: take a small rupture to create a big a feeling 352 00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 2: of a big rupture between us as well. So part 353 00:19:24,719 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 2: of the therapy work is being able to acknowledge that 354 00:19:27,239 --> 00:19:29,319 Speaker 2: happening in the room and working through it together. 355 00:19:29,519 --> 00:19:32,319 Speaker 1: Wow, and you feel you feel fine in those moments 356 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,999 Speaker 1: because you're used to kind of being in Like I 357 00:19:35,039 --> 00:19:39,039 Speaker 1: could imagine how disregulated I would get if someone's fluctuating. 358 00:19:39,079 --> 00:19:40,759 Speaker 1: But I guess you're the psychologist. 359 00:19:40,839 --> 00:19:42,799 Speaker 4: Part of the training, part of it, yeah, part of it. 360 00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:46,279 Speaker 1: Why you do what you do. Thanks for your service 361 00:19:46,319 --> 00:19:49,959 Speaker 1: Atastasia when we need it. So that was the second one. 362 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:50,839 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yes, okay. 363 00:19:50,879 --> 00:19:55,079 Speaker 2: So third criteria is around identity disturbance. So a person 364 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,279 Speaker 2: with borderline personality disorder may feel like they have an 365 00:19:58,439 --> 00:20:02,999 Speaker 2: unstable sense of self or self image. It's often described 366 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:05,839 Speaker 2: by them as a sense of not really knowing who 367 00:20:05,879 --> 00:20:09,079 Speaker 2: they are, So it requires us to do some identity 368 00:20:09,159 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 2: based work in the therapy. 369 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:10,759 Speaker 3: Yeah. 370 00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:13,759 Speaker 1: Is that anything to do with feeling like they need 371 00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 1: a shape shift in a way in each relationship or 372 00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 1: is that just because they just don't have that awareness. 373 00:20:19,439 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 2: Well, if we come back to the kind of roots 374 00:20:22,639 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: of trauma invalidation and emotion dysregulation, if a person has 375 00:20:28,999 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: lived their life feeling like their internal system is in 376 00:20:32,199 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 2: constant chaos and they've been chronically invalidated by other people, 377 00:20:36,679 --> 00:20:39,079 Speaker 2: it's really hard to find that sense of safety and 378 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 2: security in the world and in myself. We need those 379 00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:46,559 Speaker 2: kind of feelings of safety and security in our relationships 380 00:20:46,639 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 2: with other people to really get to know who we are, 381 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,999 Speaker 2: and so often people who meet criteria for BPD may 382 00:20:52,999 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 2: have missed those opportunities throughout their early life. 383 00:20:56,799 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: Wow. 384 00:20:57,879 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: Next criteria is impulsivity in different domains that can be 385 00:21:02,199 --> 00:21:05,839 Speaker 2: self damaging. So this could be for example, impulsive spending 386 00:21:05,919 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 2: of money, could be impulsive sex of substance use, reckless driving, 387 00:21:10,439 --> 00:21:13,079 Speaker 2: these kinds of things where we see these impulsive patterns, 388 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:18,799 Speaker 2: we also sometimes see recurrent suicidal behaviors or self harm 389 00:21:18,879 --> 00:21:23,039 Speaker 2: from a person who has boradline personality disorder. In terms 390 00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 2: of criteria, we're also looking for mood instability, So this 391 00:21:26,999 --> 00:21:30,599 Speaker 2: is our sense of kind of chronic dysregulation. A person 392 00:21:30,679 --> 00:21:33,279 Speaker 2: finds it really hard to manage their moods, and their 393 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:38,279 Speaker 2: moods feel chaotic and unstable. A person may also describe 394 00:21:38,399 --> 00:21:43,759 Speaker 2: chronic feelings of emptiness or numbness within them. They may 395 00:21:43,799 --> 00:21:47,839 Speaker 2: have difficulties controlling their anger and have these angry outbursts. 396 00:21:48,479 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 2: And then finally we also see sometimes kind of paranoid 397 00:21:52,639 --> 00:21:56,759 Speaker 2: ideation or dissociative symptoms as well. So a person feeling 398 00:21:56,879 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 2: quite detached from who they are and their sense of 399 00:21:59,999 --> 00:22:01,519 Speaker 2: existence essentially. 400 00:22:01,399 --> 00:22:04,799 Speaker 1: So, what are the common myths that you find comes 401 00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:06,799 Speaker 1: to borderline personality disorder. 402 00:22:06,959 --> 00:22:11,759 Speaker 2: The biggest one is this myth or misconception that circulates 403 00:22:11,879 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 2: that people who have borderline personality disorder are intentionally manipulative 404 00:22:18,439 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 2: or attention seeking, because there are these unhealthy patterns that 405 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:25,839 Speaker 2: can play out in relationships. When people are on the 406 00:22:25,919 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 2: other end of these they they may feel quite burnt 407 00:22:28,639 --> 00:22:31,799 Speaker 2: by someone who has borderline personality disorder, but they can 408 00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, look at them through this lens 409 00:22:34,159 --> 00:22:37,999 Speaker 2: of them being manipulative or attention seeking. And I guess 410 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 2: what I really want to highlight here is no one 411 00:22:41,999 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 2: chooses to have a personality disorder. No one wakes up 412 00:22:44,919 --> 00:22:47,319 Speaker 2: in the morning and goes, you know what, bullline personality 413 00:22:47,319 --> 00:22:48,799 Speaker 2: disorder sounds like fun for me. 414 00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: Too, Totally so true. 415 00:22:50,279 --> 00:22:53,959 Speaker 2: It's really disruptive for a person who has it, and 416 00:22:53,999 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 2: it's really hard to live with. And what we ultimately 417 00:22:57,759 --> 00:23:00,799 Speaker 2: see in terms of a person's behavior is their attempts 418 00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 2: to cope in the world given the resources they have, 419 00:23:04,239 --> 00:23:07,319 Speaker 2: given the biological system they have, given the life that 420 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 2: they've lived. They're really doing their best to cope. It's 421 00:23:10,639 --> 00:23:14,999 Speaker 2: not to say that we want to excuse poor behavior 422 00:23:14,999 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 2: in any way, but being able to understand where certain 423 00:23:19,199 --> 00:23:22,519 Speaker 2: behaviors come from can help us hold compassion for those 424 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:24,079 Speaker 2: people and the behaviors. 425 00:23:24,279 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I was literally just going to be like, 426 00:23:26,159 --> 00:23:28,599 Speaker 1: oh yeah, compassion. It's just like, as you're talking about it, 427 00:23:28,599 --> 00:23:31,079 Speaker 1: it kind of softens it a bit more. And again, 428 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: it's not invalidating the things that people might do, but 429 00:23:34,959 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: it's just widen in our perspective. 430 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:38,559 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. 431 00:23:38,959 --> 00:23:40,999 Speaker 2: The other big myth that I want to sort of 432 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:44,079 Speaker 2: bust is historically it was thought that people with a 433 00:23:44,159 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 2: personality disorder couldn't get better, that if you had a 434 00:23:47,479 --> 00:23:52,559 Speaker 2: personality disorder, it was like a lifelofe diagnosis, And we 435 00:23:52,679 --> 00:23:55,519 Speaker 2: know now that this is just not the case. There 436 00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,519 Speaker 2: are evidence based treatments for people with a range of 437 00:23:58,519 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: personality disorders, including borderline personality disorder. We know how to 438 00:24:02,439 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 2: apply those treatments in ways that can be effective. 439 00:24:05,999 --> 00:24:07,279 Speaker 3: And you know, some. 440 00:24:07,159 --> 00:24:10,519 Speaker 2: Of the best moments in my clinical work have been 441 00:24:10,719 --> 00:24:14,239 Speaker 2: when I've been working with someone who has BPD and 442 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: I get to undiagnose them. 443 00:24:16,079 --> 00:24:17,079 Speaker 3: At the end, I'm like. 444 00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:19,519 Speaker 2: You know what, you no longer have BPD, you no 445 00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:22,039 Speaker 2: longer meet criteria for it, and it's such an important 446 00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:24,279 Speaker 2: part of the therapy as well, Like it's such a 447 00:24:24,319 --> 00:24:27,519 Speaker 2: milestone for them. So it's definitely a myth that I 448 00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 2: want to bust that people. 449 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:30,479 Speaker 3: It's not a life sentence. 450 00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:35,479 Speaker 1: What is bipolar come into this? Because is bipolar personality disorder? 451 00:24:35,759 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 3: No? 452 00:24:36,919 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 2: No, Although the two can often be misdiagnosed, there are 453 00:24:41,439 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 2: many features that are similar. Right when we're thinking about bipolar, 454 00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 2: we do really think about those highs, those sort of 455 00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:50,559 Speaker 2: hypermanic or manic episodes someone can have, and those more 456 00:24:50,599 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 2: depressive episodes. 457 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 4: So we definitely see the mood fluctuations. 458 00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 3: But what we're less. 459 00:24:56,759 --> 00:24:59,279 Speaker 2: Likely to see in bipolar is this sort of pattern 460 00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: of unstable relationships due to kind of core beliefs as 461 00:25:03,959 --> 00:25:07,479 Speaker 2: a result of trauma. Bipolar is often typically something that's 462 00:25:07,479 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 2: more biologically driven that needs to be managed by medication, 463 00:25:11,679 --> 00:25:14,559 Speaker 2: as opposed to something like borderline personality disorder, which is 464 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:15,599 Speaker 2: more driven by trauma. 465 00:25:18,639 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: After the short break, what are the therapy options for BPD? 466 00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:29,799 Speaker 1: Stay with us? So what's the best way to treat BPD? 467 00:25:29,959 --> 00:25:33,999 Speaker 2: So the gold standard treatment for borderline personality disorder is 468 00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 2: a type of therapy called dialectical behavior therapy. 469 00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 1: That's that's a mouthful or DBT for short, DBT for BPD. 470 00:25:44,999 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 3: That's it. Yeah, that's it, all the acronyms. Yeah, we're 471 00:25:47,479 --> 00:25:49,319 Speaker 3: here going Yeah. 472 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,719 Speaker 4: So dialectical behavior therapy. 473 00:25:51,959 --> 00:25:54,479 Speaker 2: It's got an interesting story behind it, and I'll share 474 00:25:54,479 --> 00:25:55,319 Speaker 2: it if you don't like it. 475 00:25:55,519 --> 00:25:58,999 Speaker 3: I think it's interesting. I thought my graph was interesting 476 00:25:59,039 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 3: as well. 477 00:25:59,399 --> 00:26:01,759 Speaker 1: That subject. I had a breakthrough from it. 478 00:26:01,879 --> 00:26:05,079 Speaker 2: So it was developed by a psychologist call Old Marshall 479 00:26:05,079 --> 00:26:08,319 Speaker 2: Linahan in the early nineties. And it's actually said that 480 00:26:08,399 --> 00:26:12,319 Speaker 2: she herself had borderline personality disorder and she set about 481 00:26:12,679 --> 00:26:16,519 Speaker 2: trying to develop this treatment because she had historically tried 482 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,599 Speaker 2: other therapeutic approaches that had just not been helpful for her. 483 00:26:21,439 --> 00:26:25,559 Speaker 2: A lot of out older therapies, if we think back 484 00:26:25,599 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: to the days of Skinner and the behaviorists and stuff, 485 00:26:29,399 --> 00:26:33,559 Speaker 2: they're very change focused. They focus on how can you 486 00:26:33,719 --> 00:26:36,599 Speaker 2: change your thinking, how can you change your emotions, and 487 00:26:36,639 --> 00:26:40,079 Speaker 2: how can you change your behaviors. Now that's all well 488 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 2: and good, it's important for us to be able to change. Yeah, 489 00:26:42,959 --> 00:26:47,479 Speaker 2: but when we're talking to people who have histories of 490 00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 2: complex trauma and they've experienced invalidation and traumatic experiences. To 491 00:26:53,839 --> 00:26:56,999 Speaker 2: focus on how they can change their thinking, change their feeling, 492 00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:01,079 Speaker 2: change their behaviors can be further invalidating. 493 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,239 Speaker 3: Ah, if someone's. 494 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 2: Had trauma and I'm like, you know what, you could try, 495 00:27:05,679 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 2: but if you try change your thinking about it, have 496 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:12,079 Speaker 2: you considered alternative perspectives? It's quite an invalidating experience for 497 00:27:12,159 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 2: that person. 498 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:14,079 Speaker 1: Did you even think of it like that? 499 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,319 Speaker 2: So dialectical behavior therapy falls into this third wave, this 500 00:27:18,439 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 2: kind of newer wave of therapies where we go, you 501 00:27:20,679 --> 00:27:25,279 Speaker 2: know what, yep, change is important. However, we also need 502 00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 2: to teach people's skills around acceptance. How do I sit with, 503 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:34,039 Speaker 2: be present with, and accept my experience for. 504 00:27:33,919 --> 00:27:34,479 Speaker 3: What it is. 505 00:27:35,439 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 2: So DBT is this beautiful integration of acceptance and change 506 00:27:39,959 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 2: based skills. 507 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: Wow. 508 00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 2: And so it was originally developed for people with borderline 509 00:27:43,439 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 2: personality disorder. It's very practical, and so from then on 510 00:27:47,439 --> 00:27:49,519 Speaker 2: it's been adapted for a whole range of other mental 511 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:52,719 Speaker 2: health conditions. So I use a lot of DBT with 512 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:56,799 Speaker 2: my clients who have addictions. We see DBTS being adapted 513 00:27:56,799 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 2: for people with eating disorders, for people who have neurodivergence. 514 00:28:00,679 --> 00:28:04,319 Speaker 2: There's the Neurodivergent Friendly DBT workbooks. It's been adapted in 515 00:28:04,399 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: so many ways for many different mental health conditions, which 516 00:28:07,439 --> 00:28:09,599 Speaker 2: I think really just goes to show how valuable the 517 00:28:09,639 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: skills are that it teaches. 518 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah. So curious when you mean gold standard, 519 00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:18,999 Speaker 1: is it literally like someone's given. 520 00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:20,999 Speaker 3: It liked in gold Yeah, like if. 521 00:28:20,879 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: Someone's given the sticker of like gold standard, like hasn't 522 00:28:23,919 --> 00:28:27,559 Speaker 1: gone through so much research that it's clinically proven. Yes, 523 00:28:27,719 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: essentially it is. 524 00:28:28,479 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 2: Yes, So we have like levels of evidence in psychological literature, 525 00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:36,239 Speaker 2: and so DBT is the gold standard. It's got the 526 00:28:36,239 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 2: first the top line of evidence behind it. So we 527 00:28:38,999 --> 00:28:41,999 Speaker 2: have other evidence based therapies as well, but they perhaps 528 00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:45,399 Speaker 2: have less evidence and research supporting them. Yeah. 529 00:28:45,439 --> 00:28:49,559 Speaker 1: Cool. So with this approach, you mentioned like there's skills 530 00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:52,679 Speaker 1: that people learn. What are some of those key skills 531 00:28:52,719 --> 00:28:54,639 Speaker 1: that people would get from this kind of therapy. 532 00:28:54,879 --> 00:28:58,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's broken up into four modules, and so 533 00:28:58,879 --> 00:29:04,119 Speaker 2: the four modules are one mindfulness. Second module is emotion 534 00:29:04,239 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 2: regular So when I say emotion regulation, we really talk 535 00:29:07,479 --> 00:29:10,119 Speaker 2: about on a day to day level, how to help 536 00:29:10,199 --> 00:29:13,639 Speaker 2: people manage their emotions and sort of keep them in 537 00:29:13,639 --> 00:29:17,399 Speaker 2: in a window that feels quite tolerable. We have a 538 00:29:17,399 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 2: module around distress tolerance, So this is how do I 539 00:29:20,839 --> 00:29:24,039 Speaker 2: deal with the big feelings, the kind of eight, nine, 540 00:29:24,199 --> 00:29:27,119 Speaker 2: ten out of ten emotions when my rational brain is 541 00:29:27,239 --> 00:29:29,599 Speaker 2: offline and I'm in pure emotion mode. 542 00:29:29,679 --> 00:29:30,999 Speaker 3: How do I learn a. 543 00:29:30,999 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 2: Set of skills to help me regulate during those times, 544 00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:36,559 Speaker 2: because that's quite different to regulating emotions at other times. 545 00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:41,319 Speaker 2: And then the last module of skills is around interpersonal effectiveness. 546 00:29:41,639 --> 00:29:45,759 Speaker 2: How do I build my capacity to relate, to talk 547 00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:50,439 Speaker 2: to people, build friendships and relationships that feel healthy. How 548 00:29:50,439 --> 00:29:54,159 Speaker 2: do I build assertiveness skills? How do I maintain respect 549 00:29:54,199 --> 00:29:58,999 Speaker 2: for myself and other people, etc. Now, the other kind 550 00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:02,559 Speaker 2: of bit that I want to add is that these skills, 551 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 2: the four modules of skill, fall into the dialectic now, 552 00:30:08,039 --> 00:30:11,479 Speaker 2: because dialectical behavior therapy is all about dialectics. 553 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:13,359 Speaker 3: So dialectics is this. 554 00:30:13,399 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 2: Idea that two things that seem to be opposite can 555 00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:19,359 Speaker 2: both be true at the same time. So one of 556 00:30:19,399 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 2: the examples I like to use is that on the 557 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:23,839 Speaker 2: one hand, I can be in a room full of people, 558 00:30:24,239 --> 00:30:26,799 Speaker 2: and on the other hand, I can feel very alone. 559 00:30:27,439 --> 00:30:29,559 Speaker 2: They seem like opposites, but both can be true at 560 00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:33,359 Speaker 2: the same time. Now, the core dialectic of DBT is 561 00:30:33,399 --> 00:30:36,319 Speaker 2: what we mentioned before, acceptance and change. 562 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:39,919 Speaker 4: In any given situation, there are elements of that situation 563 00:30:39,959 --> 00:30:42,199 Speaker 4: that are out of my control. I cannot change them. 564 00:30:42,239 --> 00:30:44,839 Speaker 2: All I can do is accept them for what they are, 565 00:30:45,239 --> 00:30:49,199 Speaker 2: and I always have some degree of autonomy and agency 566 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:53,519 Speaker 2: to be able to make some changes. So our mindfulness 567 00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:58,799 Speaker 2: module and our distress tolerance module help us learn acceptance skills, 568 00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:02,759 Speaker 2: and our emotion rag module and our interpersonal Effectiveness module 569 00:31:02,839 --> 00:31:04,519 Speaker 2: help us learn change based skills. 570 00:31:04,999 --> 00:31:07,599 Speaker 1: So what does it actually look like in practice? 571 00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:12,399 Speaker 2: The best way of doing DBT is a combination of 572 00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:15,879 Speaker 2: group therapy where you learn the skills in a group, 573 00:31:16,079 --> 00:31:18,359 Speaker 2: and then one on one therapy where you can apply 574 00:31:18,479 --> 00:31:21,039 Speaker 2: those skills in a really kind of nuanced way to 575 00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:22,119 Speaker 2: your own situation. 576 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:23,399 Speaker 3: Now, it is. 577 00:31:23,439 --> 00:31:27,399 Speaker 2: Hard to find group programs that run that offer DBT 578 00:31:27,999 --> 00:31:30,999 Speaker 2: and people can access the therapy one on one, so 579 00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:33,439 Speaker 2: we often see people kind of go down that pathway. 580 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:35,759 Speaker 2: But if they can access both, then that's a really 581 00:31:35,799 --> 00:31:36,399 Speaker 2: great option. 582 00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:38,319 Speaker 3: But what we also. 583 00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:41,439 Speaker 2: See is that this first phase is about skills, right, 584 00:31:41,479 --> 00:31:43,759 Speaker 2: It's about getting those skills under our belt to feel 585 00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:46,679 Speaker 2: like we can regulate our emotions. But often then the 586 00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:50,159 Speaker 2: second phase of DBT requires a person to do some 587 00:31:50,239 --> 00:31:53,879 Speaker 2: more trauma based work to sort of unpack the trauma 588 00:31:53,919 --> 00:31:57,039 Speaker 2: that might have been contributing to some of their dysregulation. 589 00:31:57,319 --> 00:31:59,519 Speaker 2: Once they've got those skills downpacked. 590 00:32:00,999 --> 00:32:04,359 Speaker 1: Are next your favorite TV show and the psychology behind 591 00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:10,839 Speaker 1: why you've rewatched it at least seventeen times? 592 00:32:12,239 --> 00:32:14,439 Speaker 4: Do you understand how your behavior is confusing? 593 00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:16,839 Speaker 3: Fine? Dial Why are we like this? The best way 594 00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:19,279 Speaker 3: to understand behavior. We'll still look at the causes of 595 00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:19,679 Speaker 3: an action. 596 00:32:20,119 --> 00:32:21,439 Speaker 1: So why are we like this? 597 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:22,719 Speaker 3: Okay? 598 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:24,399 Speaker 1: So I don't know about you, but I definitely have 599 00:32:24,439 --> 00:32:27,079 Speaker 1: my go to TV shows when I want a little break, 600 00:32:27,439 --> 00:32:31,439 Speaker 1: the office, Modern Family, never have I ever, And you know, 601 00:32:31,479 --> 00:32:35,119 Speaker 1: it gets me thinking about why do we end up watching, like, 602 00:32:35,239 --> 00:32:39,039 Speaker 1: rewatching the same shows rather than watching a new show entirely. 603 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:41,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, Shit's creek for me. I love it. 604 00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:45,479 Speaker 2: Oh, no wayny goosh many times over. 605 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:47,519 Speaker 1: Oh I have to get into it. I've only watched 606 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:49,559 Speaker 1: like two episodes, like many many years ago. 607 00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:51,199 Speaker 3: But it's good to do it. 608 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:57,039 Speaker 2: But what you're referring to is called volitional reconsumption coming 609 00:32:57,079 --> 00:32:57,359 Speaker 2: in with. 610 00:32:57,319 --> 00:32:57,999 Speaker 3: The concepts and. 611 00:32:59,679 --> 00:33:02,879 Speaker 2: Russell and Levy coined this term in twenty twelve. And 612 00:33:02,919 --> 00:33:06,239 Speaker 2: this is essentially the idea that we actively choose to 613 00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:10,399 Speaker 2: re engage with entertaining material, whether that's TV shows, movies, 614 00:33:10,439 --> 00:33:13,599 Speaker 2: et cetera. We re engage with content that we've already 615 00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:17,399 Speaker 2: watched before. It's it's well known that people do this, 616 00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:21,319 Speaker 2: and we can see this proven by how much some 617 00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:25,639 Speaker 2: of the streaming services will actually pay for certain series. 618 00:33:26,519 --> 00:33:27,519 Speaker 3: So I did a bit of digging. 619 00:33:27,679 --> 00:33:33,479 Speaker 2: Oh okay, So in twenty eighteen, Netflix paid one hundred 620 00:33:33,479 --> 00:33:35,839 Speaker 2: million dollars for one year. 621 00:33:35,639 --> 00:33:39,359 Speaker 3: Of streaming rights of Friends. What Everyone Loves Friends? 622 00:33:39,439 --> 00:33:39,599 Speaker 2: Right? 623 00:33:39,999 --> 00:33:40,879 Speaker 1: One hundred million? 624 00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:43,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then later HBO paid four hundred and twenty 625 00:33:43,479 --> 00:33:45,239 Speaker 2: five million for a five year deal of Friends. 626 00:33:45,239 --> 00:33:46,279 Speaker 3: So Friends is up there. 627 00:33:46,679 --> 00:33:50,199 Speaker 2: Netflix has paid five hundred million for streaming rights to Seinfeld. 628 00:33:50,679 --> 00:33:55,079 Speaker 3: So all the big ones that the big streaming. 629 00:33:54,679 --> 00:33:58,359 Speaker 2: Services are paying up to have access to them because 630 00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:00,119 Speaker 2: I love watching them. 631 00:34:00,239 --> 00:34:02,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess it's a word like for me 632 00:34:02,199 --> 00:34:04,119 Speaker 1: when I think about the TV shows I watch, it's 633 00:34:04,159 --> 00:34:05,839 Speaker 1: like it's guarantee feel good. 634 00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:06,599 Speaker 3: Yes, you know. 635 00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:09,119 Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, because I find sometimes me if 636 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: I want to watch a new show, like yes, but 637 00:34:12,519 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: you kind of have to go through the world of 638 00:34:13,759 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: will I like it, will I not? And then you 639 00:34:15,279 --> 00:34:17,199 Speaker 1: have to fully commit to a whole series. And sometimes 640 00:34:17,279 --> 00:34:19,039 Speaker 1: I get scared that I'm going to like spend all 641 00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: this time going down a rabbit hole. I'm like, I 642 00:34:20,839 --> 00:34:21,639 Speaker 1: don't have time for that. 643 00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:25,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well you're unpacking what's behind this kind of 644 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:28,479 Speaker 2: concept of reconsumption. Yeah, so one is emotion regulation. Yes, 645 00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 2: I watch the TV show that I know, I like 646 00:34:30,559 --> 00:34:32,559 Speaker 2: because I know what the ending is. It'll make me 647 00:34:32,639 --> 00:34:35,599 Speaker 2: feel good. It's control. I don't have to kind of 648 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 2: experience the suspense or the unknown that comes with it. 649 00:34:38,319 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 3: It's a sense of control and knowing how it goes. 650 00:34:40,959 --> 00:34:45,039 Speaker 2: And also there's this idea of like cognitive efficiency, right, 651 00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:47,479 Speaker 2: like it's easy for my brain to process something that 652 00:34:47,479 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 2: it already knows. I know how it's going to end, 653 00:34:49,919 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 2: I know how the characters interact, et cetera. 654 00:34:51,839 --> 00:34:53,439 Speaker 3: It's quite easy on the brain. 655 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: So is that why sometimes when we have a TV 656 00:34:56,759 --> 00:34:59,079 Speaker 1: show going on the background and we're doing something else 657 00:34:59,279 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: that does that tie into this. 658 00:35:00,959 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll put something in the background that we've watched before. 659 00:35:03,479 --> 00:35:04,439 Speaker 3: It's a bit of comfort. 660 00:35:04,959 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know how it goes. I don't need to 661 00:35:06,799 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 2: like fully pay attention to it. 662 00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:09,559 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. 663 00:35:09,999 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 2: The other thing that these shows do is sort of 664 00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 2: I want to say, like connect us to ourselves. And 665 00:35:13,879 --> 00:35:16,079 Speaker 2: I guess what I'm getting at here is a sense 666 00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:19,079 Speaker 2: of nostalgia and like past self, you know, like oh 667 00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 2: I watched this, you know, at this part in my 668 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:24,039 Speaker 2: life and like I'm going to revisit it as a 669 00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 2: sense of like nostalgia that comes with the feeling of comfort. 670 00:35:26,959 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so true at a stage show. What 671 00:35:36,319 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: should people be taken away from today's episode? 672 00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:42,679 Speaker 2: So, First of all, personality disorders are about long term 673 00:35:42,759 --> 00:35:47,999 Speaker 2: patterns of thinking, feeling, and behaviors that show up across 674 00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:52,039 Speaker 2: a number of domains in a person's life. Second, personality 675 00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:55,879 Speaker 2: disorders can often develop as this interaction between a person's 676 00:35:55,919 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 2: emotional system and trauma or invalidation that they've experienced through 677 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:06,479 Speaker 2: their life. Thirdly, boaldline, personality disorder is not a life sentence. 678 00:36:06,679 --> 00:36:09,159 Speaker 2: There are many people who can access treatment and have 679 00:36:09,399 --> 00:36:10,679 Speaker 2: really great outcomes. 680 00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: If you'd like us to talk about something specific on 681 00:36:13,359 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: the podcast, please get in touch with us. Links through 682 00:36:15,799 --> 00:36:16,519 Speaker 1: in the show notes. 683 00:36:16,759 --> 00:36:19,599 Speaker 2: And while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a 684 00:36:19,639 --> 00:36:23,559 Speaker 2: substitute for a diagnosis or therapy. Always take what we 685 00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:26,679 Speaker 2: share here in the context of your own health and experiences. 686 00:36:26,999 --> 00:36:29,559 Speaker 1: Next week, we'll be talking about coming to terms with 687 00:36:29,679 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: getting older, the new aches, the hardened wisdom, and everything 688 00:36:34,319 --> 00:36:35,079 Speaker 1: that comes with it. 689 00:36:35,319 --> 00:36:38,159 Speaker 2: If anything we talked about today brought up any difficult 690 00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:41,679 Speaker 2: feelings for you, we have links for additional resources in 691 00:36:41,759 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 2: the show notes, and if you need immediate help, there 692 00:36:44,399 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 2: are always services like Beyond Blue and Lifeline that are 693 00:36:47,839 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 2: available to help. 694 00:36:48,959 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and let us know how you found 695 00:36:51,319 --> 00:36:54,519 Speaker 1: this episode. Send us a DM on Instagram voice notes, 696 00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: and welcome. 697 00:36:54,999 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 3: To see you next time. 698 00:36:56,359 --> 00:36:59,639 Speaker 1: Bye. 699 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,679 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 700 00:37:06,759 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.