WEBVTT - Holly's Uncensored Golden Bachelor Moment & The End Of The Year Sprint 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.382 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:22.622 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:22.701 --> 0:00:25.741 Mamma Mia. Out loud. What women are actually talking about 0:00:25.781 --> 0:00:29.262 on Wednesday, the twenty second of October. My name is 0:00:29.262 --> 0:00:30.022 Holly Waynwright. 0:00:30.342 --> 0:00:32.822 I am Amelia Lester and I'm Claire Murphy. 0:00:33.182 --> 0:00:37.382 And on our agenda for today, I watched The Golden 0:00:37.422 --> 0:00:41.101 Bachelor and now I need therapy, although maybe not for 0:00:41.142 --> 0:00:42.222 the reason you expect. 0:00:42.542 --> 0:00:46.542 Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin's daughter Apple is everywhere right now? 0:00:46.902 --> 0:00:48.742 Is this how a star is born? I want to 0:00:48.822 --> 0:00:50.461 unpack the strategy. 0:00:50.142 --> 0:00:54.542 And have you ladies heard about the October slump? It 0:00:54.622 --> 0:00:57.022 sounds awful, but we have some tips on how to 0:00:57.142 --> 0:00:59.342 pick that butt up out of its rut and get 0:00:59.422 --> 0:01:01.662 your brain back in the game. 0:01:01.982 --> 0:01:04.662 Thank god for that. But first, Amelia Lester. 0:01:04.742 --> 0:01:08.182 Albow went to the White House on Monday. Finally got 0:01:08.222 --> 0:01:12.901 it how they had a lovely lunch he and Donald Trump. 0:01:12.982 --> 0:01:16.142 I was concerned because on the lunch menu for dessert 0:01:16.342 --> 0:01:19.742 they were having a pavlova, which sounded great, but it 0:01:19.822 --> 0:01:23.022 was served with pair and ice cream, and my personal 0:01:23.142 --> 0:01:25.581 view is that pavlova should not be served with ice 0:01:25.622 --> 0:01:28.182 cream because traditionally you have worked cream on top. 0:01:28.302 --> 0:01:30.782 So why did it have to have fruit accompanying it? 0:01:30.822 --> 0:01:32.542 Because fruit should be part of the pavlova? 0:01:32.582 --> 0:01:35.222 Should it not a lot of questions so a little 0:01:35.222 --> 0:01:37.581 bit like the Americans didn't understand Pavlova. 0:01:37.662 --> 0:01:40.622 That wasn't the most awkward part of the event though, 0:01:40.662 --> 0:01:43.422 look overall it went pretty well. I think the consensus 0:01:43.502 --> 0:01:46.782 is that Albanezi did a good job, but there was 0:01:47.102 --> 0:01:51.022 one moment which I still cannot even think about without 0:01:51.102 --> 0:01:53.302 experiencing full body squarem. 0:01:53.742 --> 0:01:55.382 Full body squirm. 0:01:55.422 --> 0:01:58.902 Sky News political editor Andrew Klennell was at a press 0:01:58.902 --> 0:02:01.822 conference afterwards and he did a little bit of us 0:02:01.862 --> 0:02:05.142 shall we say shit stirring I believe it's the technical 0:02:05.222 --> 0:02:10.022 term love that he asked Trump about disparaging comments that 0:02:10.262 --> 0:02:14.061 Australia's ambassador to the US, Kevin Rudd, had once made 0:02:14.102 --> 0:02:16.262 about him. Let's take a listen, be. 0:02:16.302 --> 0:02:19.381 Concerned in Australia that it's taken nine months to get 0:02:19.422 --> 0:02:22.382 this meeting. Have you had any concerns with this administration 0:02:22.462 --> 0:02:26.342 with a stance on Palestine, climate change, or even things 0:02:26.382 --> 0:02:28.462 the ambassador said about you in the past. He's strain 0:02:28.502 --> 0:02:29.142 an ambassador. 0:02:29.542 --> 0:02:32.142 I don't know anything about him. If he said bad, 0:02:32.222 --> 0:02:34.822 then maybe he'll like to apologize. I really don't know 0:02:35.662 --> 0:02:38.621 an ambassador to say something bad about it. Don't tell 0:02:38.662 --> 0:02:40.662 me where is he? 0:02:40.742 --> 0:02:41.662 Is he still working for me? 0:02:41.782 --> 0:02:45.982 Yeah, you said bad. 0:02:46.542 --> 0:02:48.302 Before I took dispositions to prison. 0:02:48.342 --> 0:02:52.702 But I don't like you either, and probably never will. 0:02:52.902 --> 0:02:56.182 So what you can't see that is Trump turns to Alberanezer, 0:02:56.181 --> 0:02:58.822 who's sitting next to him, and says, do you know 0:02:58.902 --> 0:03:01.302 about this guy's he's still working for you? And Albo 0:03:01.542 --> 0:03:03.942 clearly had to make a decision in that second as 0:03:03.942 --> 0:03:04.582 to what to do. 0:03:04.822 --> 0:03:08.621 No, my decision would have been sliding under them, literally 0:03:08.942 --> 0:03:09.982 out under the jamas. 0:03:09.982 --> 0:03:13.822 Simpson retreating into the hedge, and he just has this 0:03:14.022 --> 0:03:16.742 enormous smile on his face, which may be him on 0:03:16.782 --> 0:03:19.382 the verge of tears and has to admit that the 0:03:19.382 --> 0:03:22.702 person who called Trump a village idiot and the most 0:03:22.782 --> 0:03:26.182 destructive president in history is in fact sitting on the 0:03:26.222 --> 0:03:27.341 other side. 0:03:27.102 --> 0:03:28.022 Of the table. 0:03:28.982 --> 0:03:32.982 Claire, you are a news hound. Is this the most 0:03:33.142 --> 0:03:37.582 awkward moment in diplomacy you've ever seen? I? 0:03:37.582 --> 0:03:38.582 Mean, we've had worse. 0:03:38.662 --> 0:03:41.422 There's been hot Mike moments which you know, have landed 0:03:41.502 --> 0:03:43.862 our leadership team in trouble in the past, which I 0:03:43.862 --> 0:03:48.382 think is potentially worse. But this was so beautiful. I 0:03:48.462 --> 0:03:50.422 just I could not love this moment more. For the 0:03:50.462 --> 0:03:52.622 starter is I don't know if it's a prerequisite if 0:03:52.662 --> 0:03:54.822 you are an Australian reporter working at the White House 0:03:54.862 --> 0:03:58.702 you have to sound as quintessentially Australian as humanly possible, 0:03:58.702 --> 0:04:01.622 because that question could not have sounded more broadly aussy. 0:04:02.102 --> 0:04:05.942 Then just that beautiful setup of knowing that Kevin Rudder 0:04:05.982 --> 0:04:08.862 is sitting at that table, and Elbow knows that Kevin 0:04:08.902 --> 0:04:11.422 Rudder is sitting at that table, and then for Trump 0:04:11.462 --> 0:04:13.622 to drop it right in his lap and then he 0:04:13.702 --> 0:04:15.342 has to deal with it, and I think he dealt 0:04:15.342 --> 0:04:17.101 with it just beautifully in the fact that he just 0:04:17.342 --> 0:04:20.782 literally pointed across the table at Kevin, like, oh yeah, 0:04:20.822 --> 0:04:21.382 it's that guy. 0:04:21.942 --> 0:04:22.942 It just felt like. 0:04:22.942 --> 0:04:26.782 This moment of it could have been the undoing of 0:04:26.821 --> 0:04:28.902 all of this, but I feel like it's almost made 0:04:28.981 --> 0:04:33.181 it the ceiling of the deal, Like it made it 0:04:33.181 --> 0:04:34.541 feel like, oh my god, they've had a bit of 0:04:34.541 --> 0:04:36.981 a lull and I did hear that afterwards, Trump did 0:04:37.061 --> 0:04:40.022 give Kevin Rut a full pardon for his past comments. 0:04:40.462 --> 0:04:42.821 But it could have potentially been so much worse, but 0:04:42.861 --> 0:04:46.462 it felt so very Australian. I think it just played 0:04:46.501 --> 0:04:52.342 into every American person's vision of what Alarican ossie kind 0:04:52.381 --> 0:04:54.581 of is in that moment, and I think it just 0:04:54.981 --> 0:04:57.101 played out beautifully. I think it couldn't have gone better. 0:04:57.541 --> 0:05:00.421 How is it a defense, like so he called Trump 0:05:00.582 --> 0:05:02.621 village idiot? Let's be honest, there are many of us 0:05:02.621 --> 0:05:05.702 who think good on you, Kevin. You said what everybody thought. 0:05:06.061 --> 0:05:07.782 How is it a defense to be like, oh, yes, 0:05:07.821 --> 0:05:11.021 mister president. But before I had this, if you're like, 0:05:11.462 --> 0:05:13.342 I totally think you're a village idiot, but I'm not 0:05:13.381 --> 0:05:16.141 allowed to say it now, It's basically what he was saying. 0:05:16.541 --> 0:05:18.741 Holly, you had a really interesting comment when we were 0:05:18.821 --> 0:05:21.861 chatting about it, which is that Albo and Trump represent 0:05:22.022 --> 0:05:26.782 two very different ideas of masculinity. Definitely, And do you 0:05:26.902 --> 0:05:30.462 feel like those two ideas ended up being complimentary rather 0:05:30.501 --> 0:05:31.821 than clashing in this moment? 0:05:31.902 --> 0:05:34.662 Look, it actually looked that way. I know there are 0:05:34.702 --> 0:05:38.101 people who like to paint Albow as weak because he 0:05:38.262 --> 0:05:41.101 is not the alpha male guy, or at least outwardly 0:05:41.181 --> 0:05:43.022 he isn't. I mean, one assumes that he has to 0:05:43.101 --> 0:05:45.702 have a pretty steel spine to get to where he is. 0:05:46.022 --> 0:05:49.421 He doesn't perform a kind of alpha male energy. And 0:05:49.462 --> 0:05:51.222 there are people who like you to believe he was weak. 0:05:51.262 --> 0:05:54.021 But I think that the fact that he didn't hide 0:05:54.101 --> 0:05:56.222 under the table, which is what I would have done, 0:05:56.301 --> 0:05:57.981 or been like, no, I've never heard of him. I 0:05:58.022 --> 0:05:59.262 don't know what you're talking about. 0:05:59.381 --> 0:06:01.261 He also didn't stop or starter either. 0:06:01.301 --> 0:06:03.462 He didn't do like an uh uh uh like there 0:06:03.462 --> 0:06:06.022 was none of that moment either, Like he just went 0:06:06.101 --> 0:06:06.502 with it. 0:06:06.501 --> 0:06:09.022 It suggests a bit of mutual respect to be fair, 0:06:09.142 --> 0:06:11.421 which is, you know, not that everybody wants to suck 0:06:11.501 --> 0:06:13.621 up to Trump, but he is kind of important in 0:06:13.662 --> 0:06:16.061 the scheme of things at the moment, as even Kevin 0:06:16.101 --> 0:06:17.142 Rudd has to acknowledge. 0:06:18.061 --> 0:06:18.421 Friends. 0:06:18.501 --> 0:06:21.301 Last night, I watched The Golden Bachelor. I'm hoping it 0:06:21.301 --> 0:06:25.502 will contribute to my eventual Walkley nomination. In case you 0:06:25.582 --> 0:06:27.502 missed it, here's what you need to know about the 0:06:27.541 --> 0:06:30.342 show that started on Monday night. It's a new version 0:06:30.381 --> 0:06:34.141 of The Bachelor, right that show the normal Bachelor after 0:06:34.462 --> 0:06:38.462 domination for several years in the early teens, and then 0:06:38.501 --> 0:06:41.941 the Bachelorette spin off and that's success. It got canceled 0:06:41.941 --> 0:06:44.501 in May last year, and the broad consensus is that 0:06:44.702 --> 0:06:47.621 people really aren't into that kind of more innocent dating 0:06:47.662 --> 0:06:50.541 show anymore. We like our maths, we like our fisty cuffs, 0:06:50.541 --> 0:06:53.981 all that kind of thing. So nine have rolled the 0:06:54.061 --> 0:06:56.501 dice on the idea that the people who are still 0:06:56.582 --> 0:06:59.861 watching this kind of TV are actually Generation X and 0:06:59.861 --> 0:07:03.621 they've given us our own version of grown up women 0:07:03.821 --> 0:07:07.181 wearing lovely frocks and behaving in really inappropriate fashion. 0:07:07.262 --> 0:07:09.022 So what ages are we talking? 0:07:09.582 --> 0:07:11.701 Bear who's the Bachelor, And yes he is called Beer 0:07:11.782 --> 0:07:14.022 and he's originally from Canada, but he's lived in Australia 0:07:14.022 --> 0:07:15.982 a really long time, but he hasn't lost his accent. 0:07:16.062 --> 0:07:16.662 Can't relate. 0:07:17.142 --> 0:07:21.021 Bear is sixty one, he's a widower, his wife died 0:07:21.062 --> 0:07:25.302 thirteen years ago, and he is choosing from twenty women 0:07:25.941 --> 0:07:29.142 aged between fifty one and sixty six. 0:07:30.022 --> 0:07:31.862 I wonder how they came up with that age group. 0:07:31.941 --> 0:07:35.222 I know, right well, maybe it was his settings on Tinder. 0:07:34.902 --> 0:07:35.302 Yet. 0:07:36.862 --> 0:07:39.062 You know how you can pick. I think maybe that 0:07:39.182 --> 0:07:42.221 was where he was already picking, right, so he seems 0:07:42.302 --> 0:07:46.062 nice and everything bear like, kind of boring, kind of nondescript. 0:07:46.542 --> 0:07:49.502 But who's not boring? Of the women and they steal 0:07:49.662 --> 0:07:51.622 all the airtime, as they always do in these kind 0:07:51.622 --> 0:07:54.941 of shows. But seeing this big group of grown up 0:07:54.982 --> 0:07:57.662 women kind of entering the house, wearing their frocks, doing 0:07:57.662 --> 0:08:00.062 all those things, the silly stunts they do. Somebody comes 0:08:00.102 --> 0:08:02.022 on a horse, somebody comes in a wedding dress, blah 0:08:02.062 --> 0:08:06.141 blah blah blah blah. It kind of feels novel to 0:08:06.302 --> 0:08:09.941 see women of that generation doing that. And I'm on 0:08:10.022 --> 0:08:13.102 picking how I feel about it. But one of the 0:08:13.102 --> 0:08:16.422 more complicated feelings watching this show brought up for me 0:08:16.542 --> 0:08:18.862 is what I need to unpack today. There's a story 0:08:18.862 --> 0:08:21.821 on Mamma Mia called Opinion because it was an opinion piece. 0:08:22.182 --> 0:08:26.222 The Golden Bachelor highlights a new class divide. Now, it's 0:08:26.262 --> 0:08:29.862 important to note that this particular story, as I'm talking now, 0:08:30.462 --> 0:08:32.942 has been read by thousands and thousands of women and 0:08:33.182 --> 0:08:35.901 is going very well on Mamma Mia, So plenty of 0:08:35.902 --> 0:08:38.262 people are clicking on this story, and in it, the 0:08:38.262 --> 0:08:41.702 writer Rachel Wells argues that what's most apparent when you 0:08:41.742 --> 0:08:44.782 get twenty over fifty women in one room, is who 0:08:44.902 --> 0:08:49.622 has had work and who has not. And she argues 0:08:49.702 --> 0:08:52.822 that that distinction is all about who can afford it 0:08:52.862 --> 0:08:54.942 and who can't, and that is like becoming a new 0:08:55.022 --> 0:08:55.902 class divide. 0:08:56.342 --> 0:08:58.742 Interesting because before it would have just been probably the 0:08:58.822 --> 0:09:01.702 clothes or maybe the accent, but now it's written on 0:09:01.742 --> 0:09:02.302 their faces. 0:09:02.422 --> 0:09:05.742 Yeah, right, And so I think that's true. But I 0:09:05.782 --> 0:09:08.782 also think it's deeper than that, because I think that 0:09:08.822 --> 0:09:11.462 the cold heart truth is that as a culture, and 0:09:11.502 --> 0:09:14.222 possibly as a generation, I'm perfectly willing to be taken 0:09:14.262 --> 0:09:17.381 to task by my younger co hosts today that we 0:09:17.422 --> 0:09:22.342 are so obsessed with women's aging faces and the vast 0:09:22.462 --> 0:09:25.622 array of decisions that are out there now, obviously informed 0:09:25.622 --> 0:09:29.222 by things like access and money and desire, the vast 0:09:29.302 --> 0:09:32.942 array of choices is that it's impossible to watch this 0:09:33.102 --> 0:09:36.262 show and not be thinking. And this is what my 0:09:36.342 --> 0:09:39.262 inner monologue was doing. And I'm always very staunch about 0:09:39.342 --> 0:09:41.702 you do you when it comes to aging, it's impossible 0:09:41.782 --> 0:09:44.582 not to be thinking, oh she's aging, well, oh she's 0:09:44.622 --> 0:09:47.822 done a bit too much. Oh subtle talks, a little 0:09:47.822 --> 0:09:48.382 bit of wrinkles. 0:09:48.422 --> 0:09:48.662 We like. 0:09:48.662 --> 0:09:52.782 That is basically it's impossible to not be reading their 0:09:52.822 --> 0:09:57.182 faces like a rich text on aging. And I kind 0:09:57.182 --> 0:09:59.982 of hate myself for that because that's just inside my 0:10:00.022 --> 0:10:02.622 own head. It's like a smorgas board of beauty and 0:10:02.662 --> 0:10:05.502 body choices. And I barely even looked at Bear like 0:10:06.022 --> 0:10:08.342 he might as well have not been on screen. I'm 0:10:08.382 --> 0:10:10.902 aware that that's the problem position in my own mind, 0:10:11.262 --> 0:10:13.102 and it used to be on MoMA Mia for example, 0:10:13.102 --> 0:10:15.142 that when we RecA and it still is to be honest, 0:10:15.422 --> 0:10:18.662 when we recap reality shows and things, we've always stayed 0:10:18.702 --> 0:10:21.782 away from commenting on women's individual appearances. And one of 0:10:21.822 --> 0:10:24.502 the main reasons for that is because there's plenty of 0:10:24.542 --> 0:10:27.742 that all over the internet, and almost always that gets 0:10:27.782 --> 0:10:29.582 turned into the stick that she used to beat those 0:10:29.582 --> 0:10:31.502 women with. It'll just be like, Wow, she's done as 0:10:31.502 --> 0:10:33.261 pretty as she thinks she is, and she looks a 0:10:33.302 --> 0:10:35.062 bit older, she needs to get to the gym, and 0:10:35.102 --> 0:10:38.022 just all this awful, toxic dialogue about what women look like. 0:10:38.302 --> 0:10:41.022 So broadly we've left all that alone because we don't 0:10:41.022 --> 0:10:44.102 want to add to the pylon. But I feel like 0:10:44.182 --> 0:10:47.182 when it comes to aging, women's faces and aging, we're like, 0:10:47.222 --> 0:10:49.862 in a bit of a new era of disclosure. We've 0:10:49.862 --> 0:10:51.862 talked about it on the show, a little bit of 0:10:51.902 --> 0:10:58.142 disclosure and interest and sharing information, Amelia. Is that true? 0:10:58.382 --> 0:11:00.702 Are we in this new age of disclosure? Or am 0:11:00.702 --> 0:11:04.542 I just trying to justify what's going on inside my head? 0:11:04.902 --> 0:11:06.822 I think that's really interesting what you said that MoMA 0:11:06.902 --> 0:11:09.502 Mia used to have this policy, but that you feel 0:11:09.622 --> 0:11:12.142 like it's changing a little bit. And I think the 0:11:12.262 --> 0:11:16.542 reason why that might be is because, even from a 0:11:16.582 --> 0:11:20.062 feminist perspective, which is where this conversation and where Mumma 0:11:20.142 --> 0:11:23.542 Mira is coming from on this, you have to acknowledge 0:11:23.662 --> 0:11:26.742 that the connection between how you look and your age, 0:11:27.222 --> 0:11:31.342 that link is now being weakened. We can no longer 0:11:31.982 --> 0:11:35.342 safely assume what age someone is by how they look, 0:11:35.542 --> 0:11:38.102 because now we have all sorts of options available that 0:11:38.182 --> 0:11:40.862 we didn't have before. It reminded me of another big 0:11:40.902 --> 0:11:43.782 debate that's happening in media at the moment, which is 0:11:43.822 --> 0:11:48.662 about whether we should automatically put someone's age after their name. Yeah, 0:11:48.742 --> 0:11:52.302 because that's been practiced in newspapers and in written publications forever. 0:11:52.462 --> 0:11:56.262 Yeah, for everybody, and it is standard training as a reporter, right. 0:11:56.102 --> 0:11:58.102 You have to admit or or I will admit to 0:11:58.142 --> 0:12:00.422 you that it's an instinct for me when I'm reading 0:12:00.422 --> 0:12:03.142 a story to sort of scan for how old someone is. 0:12:03.182 --> 0:12:05.462 I don't know why. I think it's because it helps 0:12:05.502 --> 0:12:08.142 situate them for me. But now there's this debate that 0:12:08.142 --> 0:12:10.702 says that's agist. Why is it that we have to 0:12:10.742 --> 0:12:13.622 put someone's name and then immediately put their age after 0:12:13.662 --> 0:12:17.022 their name, because we're trying to redefine what it means 0:12:17.062 --> 0:12:19.502 to be a certain age, so that if it says 0:12:19.582 --> 0:12:23.502 Amelia Luster of forty two, forty two today could mean 0:12:23.582 --> 0:12:26.222 all sorts of different things that it didn't mean twenty 0:12:26.302 --> 0:12:28.462 years ago. Claire, what do you think about that? 0:12:28.502 --> 0:12:31.262 It's so interesting because I've spoken to a few psychologists 0:12:31.342 --> 0:12:34.022 over the years about this very thing, and the thing 0:12:34.142 --> 0:12:37.742 that they all say, us humans are really good at 0:12:38.222 --> 0:12:41.622 is putting people in a framework that helps us understand 0:12:41.662 --> 0:12:44.102 them better, whether that's putting them in a box, whether 0:12:44.142 --> 0:12:49.142 that's finding patterns. Our brain really likes to contextualize things, 0:12:49.622 --> 0:12:54.622 and part of that will be someone's age, their ethnicity, 0:12:54.902 --> 0:12:56.022 it'll be what. 0:12:56.062 --> 0:12:56.862 Country they're from. 0:12:56.902 --> 0:12:59.422 Like, we've got all these ways of identifying ourselves so 0:12:59.462 --> 0:13:01.342 that we can create a vision of who we think 0:13:01.382 --> 0:13:03.342 this person is. And I had a discussion with my 0:13:03.422 --> 0:13:05.782 husband about this is not about age, but about sexuality 0:13:05.822 --> 0:13:08.302 and gender very recently, and there's a character on a 0:13:08.342 --> 0:13:10.702 TV show and he was saying, Oh, is that a 0:13:10.702 --> 0:13:12.742 man or is that a woman? And I said, look, 0:13:12.742 --> 0:13:15.901 I don't know. They seem to be, you know, gender nonconforming. 0:13:16.102 --> 0:13:17.982 I'm not sure either way. And he said, oh, but 0:13:18.182 --> 0:13:20.702 like do we know, like biologically? And I said to him, 0:13:21.582 --> 0:13:23.742 why do you need to know, Like why do you 0:13:23.822 --> 0:13:26.141 need to know whether that is a biological man or 0:13:26.182 --> 0:13:26.462 a woman? 0:13:26.502 --> 0:13:29.702 And he said, I don't know. My brain just is 0:13:29.742 --> 0:13:30.942 telling me I need to know. 0:13:32.102 --> 0:13:33.902 And I think it's the same with age, where we 0:13:34.102 --> 0:13:37.102 find these people are appearing on our screens now they 0:13:37.222 --> 0:13:40.342 seem fairly ageless, or we saw them when they were 0:13:40.382 --> 0:13:42.662 young and now they still seem to be young, or 0:13:42.662 --> 0:13:44.862 we see younger women now there's quite a big TikTok 0:13:44.942 --> 0:13:48.422 movement of like younger women saying how old do you 0:13:48.422 --> 0:13:50.102 think I am? And the person will go, I don't know, 0:13:50.142 --> 0:13:52.222 like thirty five, and they're like, I'm twenty four because 0:13:52.222 --> 0:13:54.542 they look so much older than what they would have done. 0:13:54.662 --> 0:13:57.302 A few decades ago, so our brains really want to 0:13:57.702 --> 0:14:00.422 hitch onto something to make us better understand who that 0:14:00.462 --> 0:14:03.622 person is and if that person's faces had work done. 0:14:04.142 --> 0:14:06.942 I think for us, we look at what age they are, 0:14:06.982 --> 0:14:09.262 and then we go, oh, they've got a great plastic surgeon, 0:14:09.302 --> 0:14:12.222 because they might be sixty three but they look forty two, 0:14:12.502 --> 0:14:15.102 or you know, vice versa, if they've had bad work done. 0:14:15.262 --> 0:14:17.902 I think our brains go, Okay, they've got a bad 0:14:17.902 --> 0:14:20.782 plastic surgeon. But I think this whole idea of trying 0:14:20.862 --> 0:14:23.822 to become an ageless society where we don't care about 0:14:23.822 --> 0:14:26.342 how old someone is, I just don't think human brains 0:14:26.382 --> 0:14:28.582 are wide in a way that allows us to completely 0:14:28.702 --> 0:14:32.102 let that go. And we'll always be looking for patterns 0:14:32.142 --> 0:14:35.062 or boxes to put people into try and contextualize them. 0:14:35.302 --> 0:14:37.782 We're thin slicing people, right, We're going what I need 0:14:37.822 --> 0:14:40.102 to know about you is broadly like how old you are, 0:14:40.222 --> 0:14:42.022 what you do for a livah blah blah blah, so 0:14:42.102 --> 0:14:44.262 that we can work out where to put them. But 0:14:44.382 --> 0:14:48.582 I would argue that it's not necessarily about how old 0:14:48.702 --> 0:14:51.742 you look, because I don't think that everybody who has 0:14:51.782 --> 0:14:54.422 a lot of procedures necessarily look younger, but what they 0:14:54.462 --> 0:14:59.062 look like is like they are. I think it's becoming 0:14:59.142 --> 0:15:01.702 code for I am well groomed. I think that when 0:15:01.702 --> 0:15:06.062 you move over fifty women sort of fall into camps 0:15:06.102 --> 0:15:10.222 that somehow tell you, in thin slicing how how important 0:15:10.262 --> 0:15:12.662 it is to them like what they look like, because 0:15:13.542 --> 0:15:16.862 work can mean everything from can afford to see a 0:15:16.902 --> 0:15:19.782 facialist and get really good facials once a month too, 0:15:20.342 --> 0:15:22.062 I had a deep plane face lift, you know what 0:15:22.102 --> 0:15:24.782 I mean. And that spectrum is enormous. And one of 0:15:24.782 --> 0:15:27.902 the things about this show is you're kind of seeing 0:15:27.942 --> 0:15:30.822 a spectrum there on the TV of all the different 0:15:30.822 --> 0:15:32.782 ways that women who are in a similar ten year 0:15:33.062 --> 0:15:37.262 age bracket look. And the argument in Rachel Wells's Peace was, well, 0:15:37.302 --> 0:15:38.942 that tells you whether or not they could afford it. 0:15:38.982 --> 0:15:41.142 But the problem with that argument is it suggests that 0:15:41.222 --> 0:15:45.142 every single woman who can afford to do things to 0:15:45.222 --> 0:15:47.302 her face to make her a lot younger will do it. 0:15:47.742 --> 0:15:51.782 And I'm not convinced that that's true, are you No? 0:15:52.302 --> 0:15:55.742 And I also think that another dynamic is changing too. 0:15:56.382 --> 0:15:59.022 You said that it doesn't necessarily make them look younger, 0:15:59.062 --> 0:16:01.302 and that was the line on plastic surgery for a 0:16:01.342 --> 0:16:03.862 long time, it doesn't make women look younger, it makes 0:16:03.902 --> 0:16:08.902 them look different. I think because of advances in plastic surgery, 0:16:09.262 --> 0:16:12.022 that is changing. And my evidence for that I've got 0:16:12.022 --> 0:16:15.542 two celebrities. I want to posit to you that Anne 0:16:15.542 --> 0:16:20.542 Hathaway looks younger than she looks younger than she used to. 0:16:21.222 --> 0:16:24.822 And the other example is Chris Jenna, who's one hundred 0:16:24.862 --> 0:16:29.382 thousand dollars facelift. To my eye, she now looks like 0:16:29.502 --> 0:16:33.502 she has in her forties. She doesn't, she does, Holly. 0:16:33.662 --> 0:16:35.302 Chris Jenna wants you to talk about it. And I 0:16:35.382 --> 0:16:38.662 think that's in part because in this new era of surgery, 0:16:39.142 --> 0:16:42.142 it's not just about radical transparency for the sake of it. 0:16:42.142 --> 0:16:45.382 It's about wanting people to recognize the effort you put 0:16:45.422 --> 0:16:47.982 in and the skill that has been applied to your work. 0:16:48.022 --> 0:16:51.182 I think that that's why people want us to talk 0:16:51.182 --> 0:16:53.982 about their surgery. Now. I want to be clear here, 0:16:54.382 --> 0:16:58.302 I'm not advertising or for surgery, but I am saying 0:16:58.302 --> 0:17:01.942 that the work is getting better. To my untrained eye, 0:17:02.182 --> 0:17:05.222 I am now finding it more confusing to figure out 0:17:05.222 --> 0:17:05.861 someone's age. 0:17:05.942 --> 0:17:09.502 But don't you think that deep plane facelifts from Hollywood 0:17:09.581 --> 0:17:13.701 plastic surgeons who can make magic aside like it or not. 0:17:13.782 --> 0:17:16.821 And I, again, it's my conditioning, and I'm aware it's 0:17:16.821 --> 0:17:19.502 my gen x conditioning, and I often try and program 0:17:19.502 --> 0:17:22.022 against it. Right, what I see when I meet someone 0:17:22.022 --> 0:17:24.302 who's my age, I'm fifty three. When I meet someone 0:17:24.341 --> 0:17:27.142 who's my age, whether or not, she's had a lot 0:17:27.141 --> 0:17:28.542 of things done to her face. And I'm not talking 0:17:28.581 --> 0:17:31.181 about deep planing facelifts because in my ordinary world, I 0:17:31.222 --> 0:17:33.821 don't do my knowledge know anyone who's done that. But 0:17:33.901 --> 0:17:37.581 a great deal of my friends will do injectables, fillers, 0:17:37.661 --> 0:17:41.421 resurfacing teeth, stuff that is very common. And they're not 0:17:41.462 --> 0:17:43.622 people who are in the public eye. They're people who 0:17:43.621 --> 0:17:46.462 are teachers and marketing executives, whatever, like, lots of people 0:17:46.462 --> 0:17:49.022 do that stuff. What it tells me about you is 0:17:49.022 --> 0:17:51.221 it tells me about your priorities. In out loud as 0:17:51.222 --> 0:17:54.061 a while ago, a woman posted a question that said, 0:17:54.621 --> 0:17:57.821 if you could afford work, would you get it done? 0:17:58.101 --> 0:17:59.341 And there were a lot of answers. There were like 0:17:59.341 --> 0:18:01.542 two hundred answers to this question, and I think it 0:18:01.621 --> 0:18:04.902 was about seventy thirty to the yes. Wow, that's much 0:18:04.982 --> 0:18:07.581 higher than maybe sixty forty. I didn't do a full 0:18:07.901 --> 0:18:12.101 I didn't feed it into the robot. Majority said yes. 0:18:12.861 --> 0:18:15.781 But also to be clear, at work again was that 0:18:15.821 --> 0:18:19.302 spectrum I was talking about from injectables to facelifts. But 0:18:19.422 --> 0:18:22.422 a lot of people said, I'd rather spend the money 0:18:22.502 --> 0:18:24.621 on travel if I had if I had disposable income, 0:18:24.661 --> 0:18:27.022 I'd rather spend it on travel. Or some people said, 0:18:27.381 --> 0:18:29.502 if I had the disposable income, I'd get facials and 0:18:29.542 --> 0:18:32.221 expensive serums and rich lady treatments. But I wouldn't go 0:18:32.262 --> 0:18:35.141 under the knife. So it tells you a lot about 0:18:35.422 --> 0:18:38.101 I kind of sometimes read people's faces, rightly or wrongly, 0:18:38.141 --> 0:18:40.862 about these are the decisions you've made, Like you've decided, 0:18:41.262 --> 0:18:43.422 you know that three hundred dollars that it might cost 0:18:43.462 --> 0:18:47.621 me four injectables is worth putting there. And it's becoming 0:18:47.782 --> 0:18:50.861 almost code for we used to say well kept or 0:18:50.982 --> 0:18:56.382 well preserved, well maintained maintenance. It's it's about maintenance. It's 0:18:56.462 --> 0:18:59.022 kind of become codified for all kinds of things. It's 0:18:59.061 --> 0:19:01.861 really interesting because back to whether or not you can 0:19:01.942 --> 0:19:04.341 discuss it. Of course she can discuss. 0:19:03.982 --> 0:19:05.461 Chris Jenna wants you to discuss. 0:19:05.542 --> 0:19:06.902 Yeah, that's that's what I was going to say, she's 0:19:06.942 --> 0:19:09.901 a really interesting example because she's in this era of 0:19:09.942 --> 0:19:12.661 new disclosure very much where she's like, here's the number 0:19:12.661 --> 0:19:14.982 for my surgeon, good luck, you know, trying to get 0:19:14.982 --> 0:19:17.701 in the Kardashians in general, who are very influential in 0:19:17.742 --> 0:19:21.381 beauty standards, as we know, have become after being you know, 0:19:21.422 --> 0:19:24.622 a long time of Saya Kylie being oh, no, I've 0:19:24.661 --> 0:19:26.181 done nothing. I don't know what you mean. I just 0:19:26.222 --> 0:19:29.542 got good at contouring. In twenty twenty five is really 0:19:29.861 --> 0:19:32.302