Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out loud. What women are actually talking about
Speaker 2: on Wednesday, the twenty second of October. My name is
Speaker 2: Holly Waynwright.
Speaker 3: I am Amelia Lester and I'm Claire Murphy.
Speaker 2: And on our agenda for today, I watched The Golden
Speaker 2: Bachelor and now I need therapy, although maybe not for
Speaker 2: the reason you expect.
Speaker 1: Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin's daughter Apple is everywhere right now?
Speaker 1: Is this how a star is born? I want to
Speaker 1: unpack the strategy.
Speaker 4: And have you ladies heard about the October slump? It
Speaker 4: sounds awful, but we have some tips on how to
Speaker 4: pick that butt up out of its rut and get
Speaker 4: your brain back in the game.
Speaker 2: Thank god for that. But first, Amelia Lester.
Speaker 1: Albow went to the White House on Monday. Finally got
Speaker 1: it how they had a lovely lunch he and Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: I was concerned because on the lunch menu for dessert
Speaker 1: they were having a pavlova, which sounded great, but it
Speaker 1: was served with pair and ice cream, and my personal
Speaker 1: view is that pavlova should not be served with ice
Speaker 1: cream because traditionally you have worked cream on top.
Speaker 4: So why did it have to have fruit accompanying it?
Speaker 4: Because fruit should be part of the pavlova?
Speaker 2: Should it not a lot of questions so a little
Speaker 2: bit like the Americans didn't understand Pavlova.
Speaker 1: That wasn't the most awkward part of the event though,
Speaker 1: look overall it went pretty well. I think the consensus
Speaker 1: is that Albanezi did a good job, but there was
Speaker 1: one moment which I still cannot even think about without
Speaker 1: experiencing full body squarem.
Speaker 2: Full body squirm.
Speaker 1: Sky News political editor Andrew Klennell was at a press
Speaker 1: conference afterwards and he did a little bit of us
Speaker 1: shall we say shit stirring I believe it's the technical
Speaker 1: term love that he asked Trump about disparaging comments that
Speaker 1: Australia's ambassador to the US, Kevin Rudd, had once made
Speaker 1: about him. Let's take a listen, be.
Speaker 5: Concerned in Australia that it's taken nine months to get
Speaker 5: this meeting. Have you had any concerns with this administration
Speaker 5: with a stance on Palestine, climate change, or even things
Speaker 5: the ambassador said about you in the past. He's strain
Speaker 5: an ambassador.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about him. If he said bad,
Speaker 1: then maybe he'll like to apologize. I really don't know
Speaker 1: an ambassador to say something bad about it. Don't tell
Speaker 1: me where is he?
Speaker 6: Is he still working for me?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said bad.
Speaker 5: Before I took dispositions to prison.
Speaker 1: But I don't like you either, and probably never will.
Speaker 1: So what you can't see that is Trump turns to Alberanezer,
Speaker 1: who's sitting next to him, and says, do you know
Speaker 1: about this guy's he's still working for you? And Albo
Speaker 1: clearly had to make a decision in that second as
Speaker 1: to what to do.
Speaker 2: No, my decision would have been sliding under them, literally
Speaker 2: out under the jamas.
Speaker 1: Simpson retreating into the hedge, and he just has this
Speaker 1: enormous smile on his face, which may be him on
Speaker 1: the verge of tears and has to admit that the
Speaker 1: person who called Trump a village idiot and the most
Speaker 1: destructive president in history is in fact sitting on the
Speaker 1: other side.
Speaker 2: Of the table.
Speaker 1: Claire, you are a news hound. Is this the most
Speaker 1: awkward moment in diplomacy you've ever seen? I?
Speaker 3: Mean, we've had worse.
Speaker 4: There's been hot Mike moments which you know, have landed
Speaker 4: our leadership team in trouble in the past, which I
Speaker 4: think is potentially worse. But this was so beautiful. I
Speaker 4: just I could not love this moment more. For the
Speaker 4: starter is I don't know if it's a prerequisite if
Speaker 4: you are an Australian reporter working at the White House
Speaker 4: you have to sound as quintessentially Australian as humanly possible,
Speaker 4: because that question could not have sounded more broadly aussy.
Speaker 4: Then just that beautiful setup of knowing that Kevin Rudder
Speaker 4: is sitting at that table, and Elbow knows that Kevin
Speaker 4: Rudder is sitting at that table, and then for Trump
Speaker 4: to drop it right in his lap and then he
Speaker 4: has to deal with it, and I think he dealt
Speaker 4: with it just beautifully in the fact that he just
Speaker 4: literally pointed across the table at Kevin, like, oh yeah,
Speaker 4: it's that guy.
Speaker 3: It just felt like.
Speaker 4: This moment of it could have been the undoing of
Speaker 4: all of this, but I feel like it's almost made
Speaker 4: it the ceiling of the deal, Like it made it
Speaker 4: feel like, oh my god, they've had a bit of
Speaker 4: a lull and I did hear that afterwards, Trump did
Speaker 4: give Kevin Rut a full pardon for his past comments.
Speaker 4: But it could have potentially been so much worse, but
Speaker 4: it felt so very Australian. I think it just played
Speaker 4: into every American person's vision of what Alarican ossie kind
Speaker 4: of is in that moment, and I think it just
Speaker 4: played out beautifully. I think it couldn't have gone better.
Speaker 2: How is it a defense, like so he called Trump
Speaker 2: village idiot? Let's be honest, there are many of us
Speaker 2: who think good on you, Kevin. You said what everybody thought.
Speaker 2: How is it a defense to be like, oh, yes,
Speaker 2: mister president. But before I had this, if you're like,
Speaker 2: I totally think you're a village idiot, but I'm not
Speaker 2: allowed to say it now, It's basically what he was saying.
Speaker 1: Holly, you had a really interesting comment when we were
Speaker 1: chatting about it, which is that Albo and Trump represent
Speaker 1: two very different ideas of masculinity. Definitely, And do you
Speaker 1: feel like those two ideas ended up being complimentary rather
Speaker 1: than clashing in this moment?
Speaker 2: Look, it actually looked that way. I know there are
Speaker 2: people who like to paint Albow as weak because he
Speaker 2: is not the alpha male guy, or at least outwardly
Speaker 2: he isn't. I mean, one assumes that he has to
Speaker 2: have a pretty steel spine to get to where he is.
Speaker 2: He doesn't perform a kind of alpha male energy. And
Speaker 2: there are people who like you to believe he was weak.
Speaker 2: But I think that the fact that he didn't hide
Speaker 2: under the table, which is what I would have done,
Speaker 2: or been like, no, I've never heard of him. I
Speaker 2: don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 3: He also didn't stop or starter either.
Speaker 4: He didn't do like an uh uh uh like there
Speaker 4: was none of that moment either, Like he just went
Speaker 4: with it.
Speaker 2: It suggests a bit of mutual respect to be fair,
Speaker 2: which is, you know, not that everybody wants to suck
Speaker 2: up to Trump, but he is kind of important in
Speaker 2: the scheme of things at the moment, as even Kevin
Speaker 2: Rudd has to acknowledge.
Speaker 6: Friends.
Speaker 2: Last night, I watched The Golden Bachelor. I'm hoping it
Speaker 2: will contribute to my eventual Walkley nomination. In case you
Speaker 2: missed it, here's what you need to know about the
Speaker 2: show that started on Monday night. It's a new version
Speaker 2: of The Bachelor, right that show the normal Bachelor after
Speaker 2: domination for several years in the early teens, and then
Speaker 2: the Bachelorette spin off and that's success. It got canceled
Speaker 2: in May last year, and the broad consensus is that
Speaker 2: people really aren't into that kind of more innocent dating
Speaker 2: show anymore. We like our maths, we like our fisty cuffs,
Speaker 2: all that kind of thing. So nine have rolled the
Speaker 2: dice on the idea that the people who are still
Speaker 2: watching this kind of TV are actually Generation X and
Speaker 2: they've given us our own version of grown up women
Speaker 2: wearing lovely frocks and behaving in really inappropriate fashion.
Speaker 1: So what ages are we talking?
Speaker 2: Bear who's the Bachelor, And yes he is called Beer
Speaker 2: and he's originally from Canada, but he's lived in Australia
Speaker 2: a really long time, but he hasn't lost his accent.
Speaker 3: Can't relate.
Speaker 2: Bear is sixty one, he's a widower, his wife died
Speaker 2: thirteen years ago, and he is choosing from twenty women
Speaker 2: aged between fifty one and sixty six.
Speaker 1: I wonder how they came up with that age group.
Speaker 2: I know, right well, maybe it was his settings on Tinder.
Speaker 7: Yet.
Speaker 2: You know how you can pick. I think maybe that
Speaker 2: was where he was already picking, right, so he seems
Speaker 2: nice and everything bear like, kind of boring, kind of nondescript.
Speaker 2: But who's not boring? Of the women and they steal
Speaker 2: all the airtime, as they always do in these kind
Speaker 2: of shows. But seeing this big group of grown up
Speaker 2: women kind of entering the house, wearing their frocks, doing
Speaker 2: all those things, the silly stunts they do. Somebody comes
Speaker 2: on a horse, somebody comes in a wedding dress, blah
Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah. It kind of feels novel to
Speaker 2: see women of that generation doing that. And I'm on
Speaker 2: picking how I feel about it. But one of the
Speaker 2: more complicated feelings watching this show brought up for me
Speaker 2: is what I need to unpack today. There's a story
Speaker 2: on Mamma Mia called Opinion because it was an opinion piece.
Speaker 2: The Golden Bachelor highlights a new class divide. Now, it's
Speaker 2: important to note that this particular story, as I'm talking now,
Speaker 2: has been read by thousands and thousands of women and
Speaker 2: is going very well on Mamma Mia, So plenty of
Speaker 2: people are clicking on this story, and in it, the
Speaker 2: writer Rachel Wells argues that what's most apparent when you
Speaker 2: get twenty over fifty women in one room, is who
Speaker 2: has had work and who has not. And she argues
Speaker 2: that that distinction is all about who can afford it
Speaker 2: and who can't, and that is like becoming a new
Speaker 2: class divide.
Speaker 1: Interesting because before it would have just been probably the
Speaker 1: clothes or maybe the accent, but now it's written on
Speaker 1: their faces.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And so I think that's true. But I
Speaker 2: also think it's deeper than that, because I think that
Speaker 2: the cold heart truth is that as a culture, and
Speaker 2: possibly as a generation, I'm perfectly willing to be taken
Speaker 2: to task by my younger co hosts today that we
Speaker 2: are so obsessed with women's aging faces and the vast
Speaker 2: array of decisions that are out there now, obviously informed
Speaker 2: by things like access and money and desire, the vast
Speaker 2: array of choices is that it's impossible to watch this
Speaker 2: show and not be thinking. And this is what my
Speaker 2: inner monologue was doing. And I'm always very staunch about
Speaker 2: you do you when it comes to aging, it's impossible
Speaker 2: not to be thinking, oh she's aging, well, oh she's
Speaker 2: done a bit too much. Oh subtle talks, a little
Speaker 2: bit of wrinkles.
Speaker 7: We like.
Speaker 2: That is basically it's impossible to not be reading their
Speaker 2: faces like a rich text on aging. And I kind
Speaker 2: of hate myself for that because that's just inside my
Speaker 2: own head. It's like a smorgas board of beauty and
Speaker 2: body choices. And I barely even looked at Bear like
Speaker 2: he might as well have not been on screen. I'm
Speaker 2: aware that that's the problem position in my own mind,
Speaker 2: and it used to be on MoMA Mia for example,
Speaker 2: that when we RecA and it still is to be honest,
Speaker 2: when we recap reality shows and things, we've always stayed
Speaker 2: away from commenting on women's individual appearances. And one of
Speaker 2: the main reasons for that is because there's plenty of
Speaker 2: that all over the internet, and almost always that gets
Speaker 2: turned into the stick that she used to beat those
Speaker 2: women with. It'll just be like, Wow, she's done as
Speaker 2: pretty as she thinks she is, and she looks a
Speaker 2: bit older, she needs to get to the gym, and
Speaker 2: just all this awful, toxic dialogue about what women look like.
Speaker 2: So broadly we've left all that alone because we don't
Speaker 2: want to add to the pylon. But I feel like
Speaker 2: when it comes to aging, women's faces and aging, we're like,
Speaker 2: in a bit of a new era of disclosure. We've
Speaker 2: talked about it on the show, a little bit of
Speaker 2: disclosure and interest and sharing information, Amelia. Is that true?
Speaker 2: Are we in this new age of disclosure? Or am
Speaker 2: I just trying to justify what's going on inside my head?
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting what you said that MoMA
Speaker 1: Mia used to have this policy, but that you feel
Speaker 1: like it's changing a little bit. And I think the
Speaker 1: reason why that might be is because, even from a
Speaker 1: feminist perspective, which is where this conversation and where Mumma
Speaker 1: Mira is coming from on this, you have to acknowledge
Speaker 1: that the connection between how you look and your age,
Speaker 1: that link is now being weakened. We can no longer
Speaker 1: safely assume what age someone is by how they look,
Speaker 1: because now we have all sorts of options available that
Speaker 1: we didn't have before. It reminded me of another big
Speaker 1: debate that's happening in media at the moment, which is
Speaker 1: about whether we should automatically put someone's age after their name. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because that's been practiced in newspapers and in written publications forever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for everybody, and it is standard training as a reporter, right.
Speaker 1: You have to admit or or I will admit to
Speaker 1: you that it's an instinct for me when I'm reading
Speaker 1: a story to sort of scan for how old someone is.
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I think it's because it helps
Speaker 1: situate them for me. But now there's this debate that
Speaker 1: says that's agist. Why is it that we have to
Speaker 1: put someone's name and then immediately put their age after
Speaker 1: their name, because we're trying to redefine what it means
Speaker 1: to be a certain age, so that if it says
Speaker 1: Amelia Luster of forty two, forty two today could mean
Speaker 1: all sorts of different things that it didn't mean twenty
Speaker 1: years ago. Claire, what do you think about that?
Speaker 4: It's so interesting because I've spoken to a few psychologists
Speaker 4: over the years about this very thing, and the thing
Speaker 4: that they all say, us humans are really good at
Speaker 4: is putting people in a framework that helps us understand
Speaker 4: them better, whether that's putting them in a box, whether
Speaker 4: that's finding patterns. Our brain really likes to contextualize things,
Speaker 4: and part of that will be someone's age, their ethnicity,
Speaker 4: it'll be what.
Speaker 3: Country they're from.
Speaker 4: Like, we've got all these ways of identifying ourselves so
Speaker 4: that we can create a vision of who we think
Speaker 4: this person is. And I had a discussion with my
Speaker 4: husband about this is not about age, but about sexuality
Speaker 4: and gender very recently, and there's a character on a
Speaker 4: TV show and he was saying, Oh, is that a
Speaker 4: man or is that a woman? And I said, look,
Speaker 4: I don't know. They seem to be, you know, gender nonconforming.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure either way. And he said, oh, but
Speaker 4: like do we know, like biologically? And I said to him,
Speaker 4: why do you need to know, Like why do you
Speaker 4: need to know whether that is a biological man or
Speaker 4: a woman?
Speaker 3: And he said, I don't know. My brain just is
Speaker 3: telling me I need to know.
Speaker 4: And I think it's the same with age, where we
Speaker 4: find these people are appearing on our screens now they
Speaker 4: seem fairly ageless, or we saw them when they were
Speaker 4: young and now they still seem to be young, or
Speaker 4: we see younger women now there's quite a big TikTok
Speaker 4: movement of like younger women saying how old do you
Speaker 4: think I am? And the person will go, I don't know,
Speaker 4: like thirty five, and they're like, I'm twenty four because
Speaker 4: they look so much older than what they would have done.
Speaker 4: A few decades ago, so our brains really want to
Speaker 4: hitch onto something to make us better understand who that
Speaker 4: person is and if that person's faces had work done.
Speaker 4: I think for us, we look at what age they are,
Speaker 4: and then we go, oh, they've got a great plastic surgeon,
Speaker 4: because they might be sixty three but they look forty two,
Speaker 4: or you know, vice versa, if they've had bad work done.
Speaker 4: I think our brains go, Okay, they've got a bad
Speaker 4: plastic surgeon. But I think this whole idea of trying
Speaker 4: to become an ageless society where we don't care about
Speaker 4: how old someone is, I just don't think human brains
Speaker 4: are wide in a way that allows us to completely
Speaker 4: let that go. And we'll always be looking for patterns
Speaker 4: or boxes to put people into try and contextualize them.
Speaker 2: We're thin slicing people, right, We're going what I need
Speaker 2: to know about you is broadly like how old you are,
Speaker 2: what you do for a livah blah blah blah, so
Speaker 2: that we can work out where to put them. But
Speaker 2: I would argue that it's not necessarily about how old
Speaker 2: you look, because I don't think that everybody who has
Speaker 2: a lot of procedures necessarily look younger, but what they
Speaker 2: look like is like they are. I think it's becoming
Speaker 2: code for I am well groomed. I think that when
Speaker 2: you move over fifty women sort of fall into camps
Speaker 2: that somehow tell you, in thin slicing how how important
Speaker 2: it is to them like what they look like, because
Speaker 2: work can mean everything from can afford to see a
Speaker 2: facialist and get really good facials once a month too,
Speaker 2: I had a deep plane face lift, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. And that spectrum is enormous. And one of
Speaker 2: the things about this show is you're kind of seeing
Speaker 2: a spectrum there on the TV of all the different
Speaker 2: ways that women who are in a similar ten year
Speaker 2: age bracket look. And the argument in Rachel Wells's Peace was, well,
Speaker 2: that tells you whether or not they could afford it.
Speaker 2: But the problem with that argument is it suggests that
Speaker 2: every single woman who can afford to do things to
Speaker 2: her face to make her a lot younger will do it.
Speaker 2: And I'm not convinced that that's true, are you No?
Speaker 1: And I also think that another dynamic is changing too.
Speaker 1: You said that it doesn't necessarily make them look younger,
Speaker 1: and that was the line on plastic surgery for a
Speaker 1: long time, it doesn't make women look younger, it makes
Speaker 1: them look different. I think because of advances in plastic surgery,
Speaker 1: that is changing. And my evidence for that I've got
Speaker 1: two celebrities. I want to posit to you that Anne
Speaker 1: Hathaway looks younger than she looks younger than she used to.
Speaker 1: And the other example is Chris Jenna, who's one hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars facelift. To my eye, she now looks like
Speaker 1: she has in her forties. She doesn't, she does, Holly.
Speaker 1: Chris Jenna wants you to talk about it. And I
Speaker 1: think that's in part because in this new era of surgery,
Speaker 1: it's not just about radical transparency for the sake of it.
Speaker 1: It's about wanting people to recognize the effort you put
Speaker 1: in and the skill that has been applied to your work.
Speaker 1: I think that that's why people want us to talk
Speaker 1: about their surgery. Now. I want to be clear here,
Speaker 1: I'm not advertising or for surgery, but I am saying
Speaker 1: that the work is getting better. To my untrained eye,
Speaker 1: I am now finding it more confusing to figure out
Speaker 1: someone's age.
Speaker 2: But don't you think that deep plane facelifts from Hollywood
Speaker 2: plastic surgeons who can make magic aside like it or not.
Speaker 2: And I, again, it's my conditioning, and I'm aware it's
Speaker 2: my gen x conditioning, and I often try and program
Speaker 2: against it. Right, what I see when I meet someone
Speaker 2: who's my age, I'm fifty three. When I meet someone
Speaker 2: who's my age, whether or not, she's had a lot
Speaker 2: of things done to her face. And I'm not talking
Speaker 2: about deep planing facelifts because in my ordinary world, I
Speaker 2: don't do my knowledge know anyone who's done that. But
Speaker 2: a great deal of my friends will do injectables, fillers,
Speaker 2: resurfacing teeth, stuff that is very common. And they're not
Speaker 2: people who are in the public eye. They're people who
Speaker 2: are teachers and marketing executives, whatever, like, lots of people
Speaker 2: do that stuff. What it tells me about you is
Speaker 2: it tells me about your priorities. In out loud as
Speaker 2: a while ago, a woman posted a question that said,
Speaker 2: if you could afford work, would you get it done?
Speaker 2: And there were a lot of answers. There were like
Speaker 2: two hundred answers to this question, and I think it
Speaker 2: was about seventy thirty to the yes. Wow, that's much
Speaker 2: higher than maybe sixty forty. I didn't do a full
Speaker 2: I didn't feed it into the robot. Majority said yes.
Speaker 2: But also to be clear, at work again was that
Speaker 2: spectrum I was talking about from injectables to facelifts. But
Speaker 2: a lot of people said, I'd rather spend the money
Speaker 2: on travel if I had if I had disposable income,
Speaker 2: I'd rather spend it on travel. Or some people said,
Speaker 2: if I had the disposable income, I'd get facials and
Speaker 2: expensive serums and rich lady treatments. But I wouldn't go
Speaker 2: under the knife. So it tells you a lot about
Speaker 2: I kind of sometimes read people's faces, rightly or wrongly,
Speaker 2: about these are the decisions you've made, Like you've decided,
Speaker 2: you know that three hundred dollars that it might cost
Speaker 2: me four injectables is worth putting there. And it's becoming
Speaker 2: almost code for we used to say well kept or
Speaker 2: well preserved, well maintained maintenance. It's it's about maintenance. It's
Speaker 2: kind of become codified for all kinds of things. It's
Speaker 2: really interesting because back to whether or not you can
Speaker 2: discuss it. Of course she can discuss.
Speaker 1: Chris Jenna wants you to discuss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's what I was going to say, she's
Speaker 2: a really interesting example because she's in this era of
Speaker 2: new disclosure very much where she's like, here's the number
Speaker 2: for my surgeon, good luck, you know, trying to get
Speaker 2: in the Kardashians in general, who are very influential in
Speaker 2: beauty standards, as we know, have become after being you know,
Speaker 2: a long time of Saya Kylie being oh, no, I've
Speaker 2: done nothing. I don't know what you mean. I just
Speaker 2: got good at contouring. In twenty twenty five is really
Speaker 2: open about saying no, I did this and this, and
Speaker 2: I had this many meals in my lips, and I
Speaker 2: did this and blah blah blah. So the age of
Speaker 2: disclosure is real. But the question of whether it's okay
Speaker 2: that I'm sitting there looking at these all these interesting
Speaker 2: women of different ages and demographics and ethnicities on this
Speaker 2: show and I'm thinking about how much effort they've put
Speaker 2: into aging. If that's okay or not, I think still
Speaker 2: depends on whether or not you're critiquing the actual woman.
Speaker 2: Like I wouldn't feel comfortable sitting here or on social
Speaker 2: media or anywhere going Betty looks like she's gone too far.
Speaker 2: Sally looks like she doesn't give a shit, you know,
Speaker 2: like it's still I think to the individual, woman feels
Speaker 2: like about a cudgel.
Speaker 1: You can critique my deep plant facelift all you want.
Speaker 1: I think the surgeon did remarkable work. So holy.
Speaker 4: The beauty of working at Mamma Mia is that we
Speaker 4: are surrounded by generations, different generations of women, and so
Speaker 4: we're sitting here talking about the Golden Bachelor through a
Speaker 4: lens of us growing up in a time where we
Speaker 4: were taught to judge women very harshly on a range
Speaker 4: of things, aging being one of them. So we thought
Speaker 4: we'd ask the women at Mamma Mia how they're feeling
Speaker 4: about watching the Golden Bachelor and about seeing this group
Speaker 4: of older women put themselves forward like this.
Speaker 3: And this is what they had to say.
Speaker 6: I mean, firstly, he's pretty good looking, but I think
Speaker 6: it just gives us like a little bit of hope.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I seem in future and it's bright
Speaker 1: at this point.
Speaker 6: I just think it's like wholesome and yeah, I just
Speaker 6: want to say if men ever changed.
Speaker 8: Okay, So my mum is divorced now and she's the
Speaker 8: most beautiful person in the whole world. And so watching
Speaker 8: women of her age demographic fine love is just so
Speaker 8: beautiful and wholesome, and it gives me home for her.
Speaker 7: It feels a lot more genuine For some reason, when
Speaker 7: the person is over sixty, I just instantly believe that
Speaker 7: they are actually in it for love and not fame
Speaker 7: or Instagram followers. I think that makes for a much
Speaker 7: more heartfelt, engaging show.
Speaker 4: I just think there personifies that manly, gentlemanly energy that
Speaker 4: we don't see as much from men our age, So
Speaker 4: it's quite refreshing to watch.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: I feel like a terrible human because not even one
Speaker 2: of those women mentioned what those women look like.
Speaker 1: But isn't it interesting that the words like wholesome come
Speaker 1: up a lot?
Speaker 2: I asked am Vernam Amelia, and I said, what do
Speaker 2: you think about the Golden Bachelor? And she said, all
Speaker 2: those women look cute, which is the word I hate
Speaker 2: the most for describing grown up, wise people have lived alife.
Speaker 2: They look cute, and I want to have a cup
Speaker 2: of tea with them. And I'm like, oh, I am
Speaker 2: entirely looking at this through my own insecurities.
Speaker 1: Well we all are. I mean, I think another thing
Speaker 1: that comes up through those vox pops is the idea
Speaker 1: that young people are looking for love, perhaps often more
Speaker 1: than older people, and they're looking at it through the
Speaker 1: lens of will I find love? How do I find love?
Speaker 1: You're looking at it through the lens of what should
Speaker 1: my face look like? We're all bringing our own insecurities
Speaker 1: to the table.
Speaker 2: Terrible, But I want to be clear that having watched
Speaker 2: the show, like as well as those women all looking
Speaker 2: very different, as I've said many times, they're every bit
Speaker 2: is varied, as the women on dating shows always are.
Speaker 2: There's like a villain, you can see her already. There's
Speaker 2: somebody who never gets picked and wants to get picked,
Speaker 2: like all of the usual suspects are there, just in
Speaker 2: a grown up form, which is great because that's one
Speaker 2: of the things I always want to shove home, is
Speaker 2: that not every woman who has reached a grown up
Speaker 2: ages I like to call it, is completely sane and
Speaker 2: wise and lovely and never has too many champagnes and
Speaker 2: never says the wrong thing, Like where every bit is messy,
Speaker 2: really is the younger ones.
Speaker 4: To be fair, I was just looking at I'm thinking,
Speaker 4: how can they still get around in heels at that age?
Speaker 4: Like I haven't worn a heel in like ten years now.
Speaker 4: I don't understand. It's so good on you for having
Speaker 4: like good Achilles, well done. Are you experiencing an October slump? Well,
Speaker 4: we'll find out what you can do about it. So friends,
Speaker 4: despite the warmer weather approaching and the promise of some
Speaker 4: long summer days and end of year festivities ahead, we
Speaker 4: here in Australia are currently experiencing a phenomenon known as
Speaker 4: the October slump.
Speaker 3: Now the TLDR on.
Speaker 4: The October slump, also sometimes referred to as the October slide,
Speaker 4: is that we're in a position on the calendar with
Speaker 4: the end of year looking very much inside, but like
Speaker 4: the crush of work and tasks and home related things
Speaker 4: that need to be completed by December, and the ramping
Speaker 4: up of activities, maybe like your work functions, kids things,
Speaker 4: partners functions, it can sometimes feel like you're clawing your
Speaker 4: way to the finish line, you know, like your all
Speaker 4: raggedy fingernails hanging on to the edge of your sanity.
Speaker 4: And if you do want to delve into this little
Speaker 4: bit more, the Quickies Done excellent episode about this is
Speaker 4: also an article that we can link in our show
Speaker 4: notes that our mate Analyst Todd wrote about it as well,
Speaker 4: and so that's where we've find ourselves in October, although
Speaker 4: for me it is slightly different because it's my birthday month,
Speaker 4: so it is a month of celebration. However, I am
Speaker 4: maybe pretty sure that this might be where I am
Speaker 4: at despite my birthday celebrations coming, because I have also,
Speaker 4: on top of all of this, added a house move
Speaker 4: into the mix, that we all know is one of
Speaker 4: the most stressful things you can do in your life.
Speaker 4: And so I just want to know from you too quickly,
Speaker 4: because I do have some solutions or potential solutions to
Speaker 4: this October slump experience, but I want to know how
Speaker 4: the both of you are feeling at this point in
Speaker 4: the year. Amelia, are you experiencing an the October slump
Speaker 4: that you're aware of.
Speaker 1: I've been feeling a lot of ambient anxiety, not least
Speaker 1: because socially, I feel like we've already gotten to the
Speaker 1: point where it's like, are we going to see each
Speaker 1: other before Christmas?
Speaker 2: And I guess earlier all the time.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of like a friendship test. I just
Speaker 1: want to say, though, why is moving house truly stressful
Speaker 1: because I remember when I was just starting out in
Speaker 1: the world as a young adult and I needed to
Speaker 1: pack up my belonging move and people told me that
Speaker 1: old adage that moving house is one of the three
Speaker 1: most stressful things that can happen to you. The other
Speaker 1: two are death and divorce. I think I get death
Speaker 1: and divorce, But like every time I move house, I
Speaker 1: am surprised by how gobsmackingly awful it is, and it's
Speaker 1: like I never learn the lesson.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there is something truly heinous about leaving a property
Speaker 4: and having to take every single item that you own
Speaker 4: put it into a box, only to take it out
Speaker 4: of the same box at the other end and put
Speaker 4: it in a new location.
Speaker 3: It's so dumb, Like I.
Speaker 4: Wish I could just like light a match and walk
Speaker 4: away and start over because it's so much hassle.
Speaker 3: But yeah, god, it is truly the worst.
Speaker 2: I want to move house three times in one year,
Speaker 2: and every time. This is where having a bit of
Speaker 2: a goldfish memory helps, right, is that every time I'd
Speaker 2: be like, no big deal, no big deal, no big deal.
Speaker 2: Every time it was a big deal.
Speaker 1: I think our brains tell us that to protect us,
Speaker 1: because if we remembered how bad it was. We wouldn't
Speaker 1: have a property market. Everyone would just be living in
Speaker 1: the same place that they grew.
Speaker 2: Up in whatever anyway, but I derailed us.
Speaker 1: Yes, I am feeling it, and I thought it was
Speaker 1: mostly because of this social anxiety about making sure that
Speaker 1: I somehow see everyone like I'm the pope or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know, But Holly, do you feel that I do?
Speaker 2: But I'm fighting it. So one of my least favorite
Speaker 2: things in the world. And this irritates some of my friends.
Speaker 2: I hate feeling like time is rushing past me, so
Speaker 2: I will often refuse to make plans too far in
Speaker 2: advance because.
Speaker 1: You're so enigmatic.
Speaker 2: I'm not. It's just that my nicole friends. So my
Speaker 2: friend Penny, for example, who's the chief Nicole in my life,
Speaker 2: she is already saying to me, next year, are we
Speaker 2: going away in April? Can I book this day in
Speaker 2: what about we're doing in the Winter's possible?
Speaker 1: And fanning ahead?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, do not live my life like will
Speaker 2: leaving her on red?
Speaker 1: Is that what you're doing? Like you're just like not
Speaker 1: responding leave her on red?
Speaker 2: But I literally say to her, I'm like, I don't
Speaker 2: want to wish my life away, like if I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about next so I.
Speaker 4: Hate Oh my god, Holy stop disrespecting the fact that
Speaker 4: you have a Nicole.
Speaker 3: Not everyone has one. They are like gold my friend.
Speaker 2: I love my Nicole and she is amazing, but it
Speaker 2: makes me deeply stressy to be planning Christmas in September.
Speaker 1: Clai, You're a Nicole, right, I'm getting that vibe.
Speaker 3: I am not in Nicole, I am not even close.
Speaker 4: But I have some of the best Nicoles in my
Speaker 4: I am going away next week to the Gold Coast
Speaker 4: with my very favoritist Nicole, who's organized every damn thing
Speaker 4: for me, given me the dates, and even organized my
Speaker 4: birthday dinner for me on Friday night, like amazing.
Speaker 2: But my point about this is that you don't have
Speaker 2: to buy into the panic that it's nearly the end
Speaker 2: of the year, because it actually isn't nearly the end
Speaker 2: of the year. There are still two I can't count.
Speaker 2: There are still two months and two weeks or something
Speaker 2: to go to the end of the year. That's ages.
Speaker 2: Like if you thought about two months in another.
Speaker 1: Cama formadical skills in the context of twelve months, it's
Speaker 1: nothing and I'm not.
Speaker 2: But like if you if you would go now, I
Speaker 2: mean that said she's fancy, she can do math. It's
Speaker 2: all I mean, Amelia. Is that? All I mean is
Speaker 2: that if you thought about two months in another way,
Speaker 2: like if you were going on holiday for two months,
Speaker 2: that would seem like a really long time. Do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? You can play mind games on
Speaker 2: yourself for instead of going, oh my god, it's only
Speaker 2: two months till Christmas, you could be like, imagine if
Speaker 2: I was going to Europe for two months, I'd be like,
Speaker 2: that is the longest holiday of all time. So what
Speaker 2: I'm saying is don't let yourself slide. That is true.
Speaker 4: But what if you have a conversation with a friend
Speaker 4: who says, like I caught up with a friend not
Speaker 4: long ago and I said, I was just on the
Speaker 4: phone and I said, should we catch up? And she goes,
Speaker 4: I don't have a free weekend now until December something
Speaker 4: or other, And.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 4: And the same has happened to a lot of my
Speaker 4: other friends, Like they are fully solidly booked every weekend
Speaker 4: until the end of the year, Like it's done, the
Speaker 4: calendar is full, the appointments are set like there is
Speaker 4: not a lot of wiggle room towards this part of
Speaker 4: the year.
Speaker 2: But my point is is that, and this is something
Speaker 2: I'm working on right. I don't believe you have to
Speaker 2: always buy into everybody else's panic. So if it's really
Speaker 2: stressing you out to think it's ten weeks till Christmas
Speaker 2: and oh my god, the year is almost over. And
Speaker 2: I said that this year I was gonna X y
Speaker 2: Z and I haven't done it, so I'm a failure
Speaker 2: and oh my god, it's like, actually no, there's still
Speaker 2: however many weeks left and we've established I don't know,
Speaker 2: and I feel like sometimes we just need to like
Speaker 2: breathe in and go all right. It's not like I
Speaker 2: have to throw the baby out with the by thought
Speaker 2: which brings me to a substack that we were talking
Speaker 2: about today. That's like what to do if you feel
Speaker 2: like life is passing you by, because I feel like
Speaker 2: that is kind of what this end of your panic
Speaker 2: is about. It's like, oh my god, it's all just
Speaker 2: happening again, and I reckon, you can grab onto the reins.
Speaker 2: Was there anything in that that spoke to you?
Speaker 4: There is so this substack was written by Alex Mothers.
Speaker 4: He's a productivity expert, and you're right. The title is
Speaker 4: ten things to do Today If you feel life is
Speaker 4: passing you by.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine having a productivity expert in your life?
Speaker 2: Side note Nicole le Yes, Oh my god, they should
Speaker 2: have Nicole in their job time.
Speaker 4: All right, I'm not going to go through the whole ten,
Speaker 4: but here are some highlights if you want to pull
Speaker 4: your brain out of October slump mode and stop getting
Speaker 4: caught up in the panic. As Holly says, so first
Speaker 4: of all, we're going to start small. Make a commitment
Speaker 4: to creating one new habit in a key life area.
Speaker 3: Pick one.
Speaker 4: It can be anything, health, money, relationships, adventure, whatever you like.
Speaker 4: Focus in on one thing you can change or give
Speaker 4: you an example. This time last year, when I was
Speaker 4: experiencing the October slump, I decided to do fifty squats
Speaker 4: every day while I brush my teeth.
Speaker 2: In the morning. Oh my good, well done.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 4: I made that decision because I was very aware by
Speaker 4: them that I'm in perimenopause and I'm worried my bones
Speaker 4: they are about to turn to dust and my muscles
Speaker 4: are going to waste away until I'll be one of
Speaker 4: those elderly ladies who get stuck on the toilet and
Speaker 4: has to call someone to come and get them up.
Speaker 2: So you're going to say, I'm well aware that I'm
Speaker 2: chasing a fat ass.
Speaker 1: Row but.
Speaker 2: Because that's why the Kardashians talk about squats a lot, web.
Speaker 4: Sorry, I mean, I am also trying to my Kardashian curves.
Speaker 3: But unfortunately I don't feel like at this stage that
Speaker 3: is possible without a BBL.
Speaker 4: But I twelve months on from that point, I am
Speaker 4: still doing my fifty squats, and they get easier and easier,
Speaker 4: and now it's become a habit that I've come to
Speaker 4: almost weirdly enjoy. I do not enjoy exercise, not in
Speaker 4: any way, shape or form. I have to sneak it
Speaker 4: in where I can, but this has become habit now.
Speaker 4: So as soon as I've put the toothpaste on the toothbrush,
Speaker 4: my brain's all right, squat time and I'm doing it.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 3: Number Two.
Speaker 4: You can connect with someone you've been avoiding. I mean,
Speaker 4: like a friend, family member, colleague. You're not avoiding them
Speaker 4: because you don't like them, it's just because you haven't right,
Speaker 4: So you haven't made the time, and then all of
Speaker 4: a sudden time has passed, and now you're wondering if
Speaker 4: you should or shouldn't reach out because you don't know
Speaker 4: how they'll feel.
Speaker 1: This was my favorite of the tips. It really spoke
Speaker 1: to me, and it reminded me of some excellent advice
Speaker 1: I got recently. I have a friend who let's say,
Speaker 1: my friend is in politics. My friend is not Kevin.
Speaker 3: Right, it's Alboux right, it's out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, friend is in American politics, and he gave me
Speaker 1: some advice. He's really good because he's in politics at
Speaker 1: making sure everyone in his life feels like they are
Speaker 1: seen by him and like he's caring about them. And
Speaker 1: he told me that his advice is when you are
Speaker 1: reaching out to someone that you haven't spoken to in
Speaker 1: a while, it can be really scary for you, and
Speaker 1: it can also be quite intimidating for the person you're
Speaker 1: reaching out to because they start getting worried. If you
Speaker 1: send them a text and say can we talk tomorrow,
Speaker 1: They're like, oh my god, what's happened? Is there something wrong?
Speaker 1: So he said to kind of just break the ice
Speaker 1: between the two of you, you should just text someone
Speaker 1: and say hey, can I get your advice on something tomorrow?
Speaker 1: Can I call you at ten?
Speaker 3: That's coolness?
Speaker 1: And he says it doesn't matter. You don't actually need
Speaker 1: advice on anything. And so I tried this out. I
Speaker 1: texted someone who I've been meaning to text for a
Speaker 1: long time, and I said, can I get your advice
Speaker 1: on something? They write back immediately because they feel flattered
Speaker 1: that they're not worried. They're like, yeah, they feeling important too,
Speaker 1: really important and valued. And I called my friend who
Speaker 1: I hadn't spoken to in a while. I just made
Speaker 1: it up something that I needed advice on. Guess what
Speaker 1: she gave me great advice. So I also got some
Speaker 1: advice there I didn't even know I needed, and I've
Speaker 1: just found it really helpful, amazing.
Speaker 3: All right, well here's the message to you right now.
Speaker 4: If you are listening to this and you're feeling October slumpy,
Speaker 4: just hit pause on this. Don't leave us. You'll come
Speaker 4: back to this podcast in a second. But hit pause, immediately,
Speaker 4: get your phone. Text that person right now, Okay, right
Speaker 4: this very second, exactly what Amelia told you.
Speaker 3: Can I get some advice from you tomorrow?
Speaker 4: It's a weight off, and you aren't thinking about that person,
Speaker 4: whether they're mad at you or not, and you have
Speaker 4: a clear conscience.
Speaker 2: This is all very good advice, but you're just giving
Speaker 2: me a lot more things to do. And there's a
Speaker 2: different energy that needs to be embraced here. Friends, it's
Speaker 2: the energy of nap. It is okay to do things
Speaker 2: differently this year. Start now. You can't do it in December.
Speaker 2: Is that when people start asking you everything. Just channel me,
Speaker 2: Just channel.
Speaker 1: Me the final quarter up.
Speaker 2: I love it enough this year. I'm not going to xyz.
Speaker 2: Turn to your partner if you have one. Why don't
Speaker 2: you organize the presence for the teachers, give them lots
Speaker 2: of warning.
Speaker 3: Oh well that's a tough one to hand over.
Speaker 2: But okay, whatever it is that always stresses you out
Speaker 2: at this timeom ticklick. As we go into this massive rush,
Speaker 2: it gets too late. Final quarter up energy, friends, don't
Speaker 2: let yourself be overwhelmed. Hold onto the reins, be strong. No,
Speaker 2: not going to do that. Maybe you could do that.
Speaker 2: It's not too late, friends.
Speaker 4: It's not too late, So go and just shake off
Speaker 4: the slump. Have a bit of a less panicked October.
Speaker 1: After the break, the topic that Holly and I begged,
Speaker 1: begged our producers to talk about today.
Speaker 2: Want unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
Speaker 2: of the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: Some people enjoy bird watching, some people like Trainspotting, Hollywayne right,
Speaker 1: and I like tracking Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin's child Apple. Oh.
Speaker 4: I'm shocked that Holly Wainwright is doing something connected with
Speaker 4: Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 1: This must be something new for her. But the thing
Speaker 1: is that their daughter Apple is suddenly everywhere. It's uncanny.
Speaker 1: So let me explain that the various places she's been
Speaker 1: popping out recently. First of all, a band named Jade Street,
Speaker 1: which is an la indie rock duo, is releasing its
Speaker 1: third single next week. Now that wouldn't otherwise be something
Speaker 1: this show, but Apple Martin is singing on the song,
Speaker 1: and the consensus in the office is that we kind
Speaker 1: of like the song. It's called Satellites.
Speaker 2: We Ussie. Oh, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's very cold play, very Chris, did you catch that
Speaker 1: guide you home there, I've gone deep on that. That
Speaker 1: has to be an allusion to this iconic line from
Speaker 1: Coldplays Fix You. I can't listen to this song without crying,
Speaker 1: so we have to end it, and I have to
Speaker 1: stop the song. So the twenty one year old Apple
Speaker 1: made her debut as a model as well. She does
Speaker 1: a lot of different things at Chanell's Paris Fashion Week
Speaker 1: show in twenty twenty three, me too, And she has
Speaker 1: just posed for Gaps Fall Down and campaign with her mother.
Speaker 1: And she is also the face of the British brand
Speaker 1: self Portrait.
Speaker 2: Have you seen those cute little Q and A she's
Speaker 2: been doing in therese Yes, she is very busy.
Speaker 1: All of us are very busy. And what fascinates me
Speaker 1: about this is this strategy of building a star that
Speaker 1: we are seeing here in real time. Why is Apple
Speaker 1: Martin suddenly everywhere? I assume this is some kind of
Speaker 1: concerted plan.
Speaker 4: Can I interrupt us for one second when you say
Speaker 4: Apple Martin is everywhere? I feel like your algorithms are
Speaker 4: slightly different to mine, because today was the first time
Speaker 4: I'd realized Apple Martin was doing anything. I knew that
Speaker 4: she was a child of theirs, but I did not
Speaker 4: know what she was doing or doing.
Speaker 1: Now you know how you said you do fifty squats
Speaker 1: while brushing your teeth. Collie and I exchanged text about
Speaker 1: abrama rushing our teeth. Who's to say which one is better?
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 2: There is no question that the culture, and not only
Speaker 2: our obsession, is suddenly trying to thrust her upon us. Now.
Speaker 2: I think it's all about the magic number twenty one.
Speaker 2: That's what I think, right, Because if you have read,
Speaker 2: as Amelia and I have the Gwyneth Pultrow biography by
Speaker 2: Amy Odell, which last week Gwyneth referred to as a
Speaker 2: hack job, which is a whole other conversation that we
Speaker 2: will have off Mike, you would know that Gwyneth from
Speaker 2: a very young age at school, wanted to be famous.
Speaker 2: She wanted to be in movies. She wanted to act.
Speaker 2: Her mum was an actress, her dad was a director.
Speaker 2: So she was at what we would term a Neppo
Speaker 2: Baby two and show. She was appearing. She was turning
Speaker 2: up at her mom's theater, you know, summer theater, Stock place,
Speaker 2: and appearing in the plays, and she was trying to
Speaker 2: get parts in movies. When she was at UNI in
Speaker 2: California when she was supposed to be studying, and her
Speaker 2: parents tried to hold her back to a point until
Speaker 2: she was an adult to enter the game, but she
Speaker 2: jumped in a bit early, didn't she. I have a
Speaker 2: theory that Gwinny and Chris, and Chris is a sensible
Speaker 2: Englishman could clearly see Apple's stop tentral from a very
Speaker 2: young age. Let's face it, she looks like a famous person.
Speaker 2: I've only been.
Speaker 1: Sounds like a famous person. She hands so much like Chris.
Speaker 2: She suddenly looks ubiquitously familiar. And even those of us
Speaker 2: who keep tabs on her Claire, I'm like you, I
Speaker 2: haven't really been seeing her around that much until now.
Speaker 2: She suddenly looks like I've been seeing her for ages.
Speaker 2: I think they told her you have to wait to
Speaker 2: her twenty one.
Speaker 1: That makes sense because she turned twenty one in May,
Speaker 1: and that's the age in the US where you can drink,
Speaker 1: so it's very much like the mark of adulthood. And
Speaker 1: she has been studying. She's at university, studying pre law
Speaker 1: at Vanderbilt, which is a quite prestigious university in the
Speaker 1: American South. She has said, my parents did a really
Speaker 1: good job of telling me that I'm not entitled to
Speaker 1: things that I need to work. I think that's a
Speaker 1: very feasible theory. I want to complicate things, though, because
Speaker 1: we can agree that her singing is really hauntingly familiar
Speaker 1: to Chris's and is quite catchy and gordon, and she
Speaker 1: certainly looks great in the bias cut dresses that she's
Speaker 1: been modeling for self portrait. But she is modeling a
Speaker 1: very different type of NEPO baby to others. She is
Speaker 1: trying to show that she works very hard, that she
Speaker 1: is getting there through discipline and through a concerted strategy.
Speaker 1: There's another NEPO baby coming up through the ranks. Her
Speaker 1: name is romy Mars. She is the daughter of Sophia
Speaker 1: Coppola and the Phoenix singer Thomas Mars. She is eighteen,
Speaker 1: so interesting age difference. There's still very much a child
Speaker 1: in terms of the American markers of adulthood, and she
Speaker 1: is completely unabashed about how her life is better than yours.
Speaker 1: She's released this very super catchy single, it's called a Lister.
Speaker 1: It's about flying in private jets, swimming in gorgeous pools.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to play a little bit of it
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 6: Now, I'll say I'll be bored with everything that I've got,
Speaker 6: get out of fancy clothes right after they get the
Speaker 6: show and we create things from Masanna Kna flying REGI
Speaker 6: just to feel something.
Speaker 2: This song's going to make me cry for very different reason.
Speaker 3: Fixed it's throwing shades.
Speaker 4: Remember when her did Baby came out and said like
Speaker 4: her mum never gave her anything designer when she was
Speaker 4: growing up, and how hard life was for her.
Speaker 3: That's what that feels like.
Speaker 2: That was very catchy, though I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Different great song, and she's just got a completely different
Speaker 1: vibe to Apple. She originally became famous for a TikTok
Speaker 1: in which she talked about being grounded because she attempted
Speaker 1: to charter a helicopter to go and visit her friend,
Speaker 1: which is relatable. And now she's very famous for a
Speaker 1: TikTok dance that she filmed with Jacob A. Laudie where
Speaker 1: they seem to be on the top of some kind
Speaker 1: of Parisian skyscraper they're dancing, has more than thirty million views.
Speaker 1: Be right back goodly, she makes me feel bad. The
Speaker 1: thing about Apple is I think Apple's trying to position
Speaker 1: herself as a different kind of nepo baby to that
Speaker 1: Romy Mars model of Yeah, my life is great and
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's nothing new about daughters of actresses being actresses.
Speaker 2: I think you're right, Like Romi is playing into a
Speaker 2: bit more of that, like billionaire TikTok vibe, isn't she
Speaker 2: We talked about Becka Bloom and that kind of look
Speaker 2: at all my amazing stuff, And it's clear that Apple
Speaker 2: wants to be. Well, what's interesting about that is, as
Speaker 2: I said to Amelia when we're coming in, the gen
Speaker 2: X in me is like, so does she want to
Speaker 2: be an actress or does she want to be a
Speaker 2: singer or does she want to be a model, Because
Speaker 2: you used to have to pick one, right, But that's
Speaker 2: not the way it works anymore. Clearly, Apple wants to
Speaker 2: be all those things. The thing I find fascinating is
Speaker 2: that Apple Martin would have grown up seeing her mom,
Speaker 2: in particular her dad, everybody's kind of nice about generally,
Speaker 2: but seeing her mom being slammed, mocked, derided for being
Speaker 2: all the things that now Apple seems to be portraying
Speaker 2: being a skinny blonde privilege.
Speaker 1: It girl.
Speaker 2: Essentially, yeah, being an it girl, a beautiful woman who
Speaker 2: comes from privilege and then strategically used those advantages to
Speaker 2: build a career. That's what a lot of people slag
Speaker 2: Gwyneth Paltrow of for all the time. You might imagine
Speaker 2: that if you grow up seeing that, you might think,
Speaker 2: I don't want any part in that. I don't need
Speaker 2: to do it for the money. I don't need to
Speaker 2: have people writing about me, talking about me, slagging me off.
Speaker 2: I could just live a nice, quiet life, but so
Speaker 2: few do. It's really interesting to me that you would
Speaker 2: be people are going to mock Apple Martin mercilessly. We
Speaker 2: saw that because that beautiful song you played. She performed
Speaker 2: it live at a gig in Nashville, and the video
Speaker 2: of that has gone all over social media, and her
Speaker 2: vocals don't sound as great as they do on that song.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I mean, it depends on your viewpoint, but she is
Speaker 2: already being roundly mocked for being talentless and for being privileged,
Speaker 2: and she will copy it. And I'm interested in this
Speaker 2: sort of decision to do that when you're aware, whereas
Speaker 2: a lot of famous people who become famous from nowhere,
Speaker 2: so that you know their dad was a carpenter and
Speaker 2: their mom was a teacher, but they wanted to be
Speaker 2: an actor or a pop star. They'll say, nothing can
Speaker 2: prepare you for fame, Nothing can prepare you for that spotlight.
Speaker 2: It is a shock when it happens to you, exactly,
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, we can barely walk outside. But like
Speaker 2: these kids do know, they know exactly what's going to happen,
Speaker 2: and yet they want to do it. So that's interesting
Speaker 2: in itself.
Speaker 4: Can I just say, what a time to be alive
Speaker 4: that I've experienced second generation NEPO babies, Like this is fine,
Speaker 4: that's such a good point. I do love a NEPO baby.
Speaker 4: I mean, let's face it, though, these kids aren't the
Speaker 4: first to step into the family business, Like you know,
Speaker 4: if your family runs any kind of trade or store,
Speaker 4: even like people step into their parents' shoes all the time,
Speaker 4: Like you know, if your dad's a plumber, you end
Speaker 4: up being a plumber.
Speaker 3: Like no one kind of blinks an eye.
Speaker 4: But when a kid of an entertainer also becomes an entertainer,
Speaker 4: it's almost like we're going like, how dare they step
Speaker 4: into that space? Like they're already ready for it.
Speaker 2: I'm not shocked. I'm just amazed that they want that
Speaker 2: level of attention.
Speaker 4: They're used to it, right, There've been NEPO babies from
Speaker 4: the moment they were in the world, and the fact
Speaker 4: that they called her Apple was spread on headlines from
Speaker 4: one end of the world to the other. Like, they
Speaker 4: are so used to this attention already, I would be
Speaker 4: surprised if they have not had many conversations Gwyneth, Chris
Speaker 4: and Apple and the other one. There's a fourth one
Speaker 4: of them, right, there's another child, Moses.
Speaker 2: He's still at UNI. He has to wait till he
Speaker 2: turns twenty one.
Speaker 4: Like, I'm sure that they've had many conversations about the
Speaker 4: choices that they're going to make if they do step
Speaker 4: into the same limelight as their parents do. And I'm
Speaker 4: sure that they are well armed to handle it, and
Speaker 4: arguably are better armed to handle it than someone who
Speaker 4: does come out of obscurity into the spotlight all of
Speaker 4: a sudden, because they've grown up with it and understand
Speaker 4: it so.
Speaker 1: Like I get it.
Speaker 4: Sure, they don't want to cop the shit, no one does,
Speaker 4: but they're used to it in a way, and I
Speaker 4: think they're fore armed and forewarned well, they definitely have
Speaker 4: a role model for it. So Gwyneth Paltrow is well
Speaker 4: known for being massively criticized, of course, and for she
Speaker 4: has this I don't care energy about it, and some
Speaker 4: people like that and some people don't. The crucial distinction
Speaker 4: that needs to be made between your parent being a
Speaker 4: plumber and your parent being a movie start, though, is there.
Speaker 4: You don't hear a great deal plumbing. It's so high
Speaker 4: to break into, Like you can go and do an
Speaker 4: apprenticeship and become a plumber, like, whereas this world is
Speaker 4: so rarefied, it's so hard people like to get into.
Speaker 4: It's had anyway. The last point I want to make
Speaker 4: is there are some only a few children of famous
Speaker 4: people who do not step into their shoes. Bruce Springsteen
Speaker 4: has a son who's a firefighter. One of Anna Wintour's
Speaker 4: kids is a psychiatrist. Gordon Ramsey's daughter is a police officer.
Speaker 1: Okay, problem with the Anna Winter one is that Anna
Speaker 1: Wintre's ex husband, who is the father of the psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: is a psychiatrist, so he's actually absent. Howard Stern's another
Speaker 1: good example. He has two daughters, one is a rabbi
Speaker 1: and one is a social worker.
Speaker 2: So some of them do go no, I don't want
Speaker 2: to do that out loud as a massive thank you
Speaker 2: to all of you for being here with us today.
Speaker 2: As always, remember you can watch this on YouTube if
Speaker 2: you would like to see us responding to the fabulous
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, if you want to see a steep flame
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