Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on wrinkles and blotches and
Speaker 2: bits that sag, shadows and creases and crape. My face
Speaker 2: is changing, and I'm faking being fine with it. Maybe
Speaker 2: you are too. I'm sure that wasn't there yesterday, I say,
Speaker 2: peering into the mirror without my bifocal contact lenses with
Speaker 2: their comforting blur, poking at a crevice, holding up an eyelid,
Speaker 2: reaching for a tweezer, a potion, a coverall. Sometimes it
Speaker 2: takes all the will in the world not.
Speaker 1: To want to scrape it off.
Speaker 2: Stop the change, stop the slide, stop the fold, stop
Speaker 2: the inevitable. Freeze it in time, sand it, smooth it,
Speaker 2: lift it, fill it. Maybe I will. Maybe if I
Speaker 2: did that, I wouldn't notice anymore that I'm aging. Maybe
Speaker 2: fewer lines would distract me from my undulating hormones.
Speaker 1: That little grunt as I stand up, the.
Speaker 2: Advancing migrain, the birthday numbers counting up to nowhere, the
Speaker 2: days I get to spend with my people counting down.
Speaker 2: But also if I do that to try to trick
Speaker 2: the mirror, then another trap yawns open.
Speaker 1: Don't you dare look.
Speaker 2: Like you're trying too hard, so sad, so desperate. What
Speaker 2: have you done to your face? So many opinions, so
Speaker 2: much criticism, so much wasted energy on this little patch
Speaker 2: of fleshy real estate. Maybe if my face just bloody
Speaker 2: stopped changing, I could pretend time wasn't passing. The change
Speaker 2: is accelerating. Today, I'm despairing over an image that I
Speaker 2: know in a year I will consider impossibly youthful. Well,
Speaker 2: despairing is a strong word, one I should save for
Speaker 2: things worthy of dis stress, illness, and loss and stubbed
Speaker 2: toes in the dark. But then again, maybe despairing is
Speaker 2: the right word, because our faces apparently mean so much.
Speaker 2: They signal to the world where we're up to, near
Speaker 2: the beginning, near the end, somewhere in the messy mid
Speaker 2: They signal to the world, apparently, how much we care,
Speaker 2: how together we are, how well we nurture ourselves. Does
Speaker 2: an errant eyebrow mean we're messy, an unfilled line that
Speaker 2: we've given up? Beauty is a beast when you're mid
Speaker 2: because aging is a privilege, but looking young is everything.
Speaker 2: The entire world says, So why, my mirror asks me,
Speaker 2: as I peered too close? Do you care about this?
Speaker 2: You're not a supermodel or a celebrity. Your worth isn't
Speaker 2: tied to your foreheadlines. You know you're always saying it
Speaker 2: that getting to bitch about wrinkles is a lottery winning luck.
Speaker 2: So many others would give anything for. You know that,
Speaker 2: deep in your bones that these are stripes of pride,
Speaker 2: blotch of wisdom, folds of experience. Those words are so
Speaker 2: true it hurts. We all feel it. We didn't get
Speaker 2: this wise without knowing about insides versus outsides, and the
Speaker 2: futility of relentless comparison, or the subtle manipulation of shifting
Speaker 2: beauty standards. But still, even with all that wisdom, some days,
Speaker 2: the mirror is a fucking bitch.
Speaker 1: I said it.
Speaker 2: My face is changing, and I'm busy faking being fine
Speaker 2: with it. Maybe one day I won't have to fake
Speaker 2: it at all. The hard fought wisdom that drew those
Speaker 2: fine lines will settle into every cell of my body,
Speaker 2: and I'll be comfortable and confident in my serum lathered skin.
Speaker 1: I can't wait. I'll see you there.
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, I am Holly Wainwright and I am Mid,
Speaker 2: mid Life, mid Family, mid Wrinkle, Panic, and today we're
Speaker 2: bringing you the last conversation of mid season two. It
Speaker 2: has been a ridiculous treat to bring you the conversations
Speaker 2: we've brought you about sex, money, time, sisters, invisibility, rage,
Speaker 2: and that big family shift. If you missed any of them,
Speaker 2: now's your moment. Go back and listen, share them with
Speaker 2: anyone who needs to hear them. And please, if you
Speaker 2: love mid, throw us a follow and leave us a review.
Speaker 2: I know that every podcast you listen to asks you.
Speaker 1: To do that, but there's a good reason.
Speaker 2: That's because it helps more people find us, and the
Speaker 2: more mids, I think you'll agree, the better. But today
Speaker 2: a treat. You might have gathered from my introduction that
Speaker 2: we are talking about faces and bodies, and at the
Speaker 2: beginning of this season, I promised you a supermodel. I
Speaker 2: don't know who you thought was going to walk in
Speaker 2: here with me, but I know you're going to be
Speaker 2: delighted to meet her if you haven't already. Alison Bray
Speaker 2: was the Australian model of the late eighties and early nineties.
Speaker 2: On every magazine cover and on every teenage girl's wall.
Speaker 2: She had a huge career here and overseas, and then
Speaker 2: she married the equally famous and attractive Cameron Daddo and
Speaker 2: backed right away from the industry, settled in la and
Speaker 2: raised a family. Now, as Alison Bray Daddo, or Ali,
Speaker 2: as very many of us know her, she's also become
Speaker 2: just the most honest, interesting voice about midlife and menopause
Speaker 2: and all the messy challenges it brings us. But today
Speaker 2: we're not actually talking about that. We're getting deep about
Speaker 2: surface stuff, beauty, whatever it means to us. And let's
Speaker 2: be honest, there's a sliding scale of how much any
Speaker 2: of us can ever claim to have felt beautiful at
Speaker 2: any age. It's a beast in midlife because how we
Speaker 2: wear our age on our face and our bodies can
Speaker 2: feel so important and so crucial to how the outside
Speaker 2: world sees us, even as we know that it's really
Speaker 2: the silliest of all of our concerns. It often doesn't
Speaker 2: feel that way. So come and talk to me and
Speaker 2: Ali about how we're feeling about that, what we're doing
Speaker 2: about that, and where we all stand on the mistakes
Speaker 2: we've made in thinking and talking about our faces and
Speaker 2: our bodies as we've.
Speaker 1: Moved on through.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Mid Season two, Episode eight, Beauty with Ali Daddo. Alie,
Speaker 2: I could talk to you about a million things on
Speaker 2: mid that our audience would love to hear. You talk
Speaker 2: about menopause obviously, yes, since you've literally written the book
Speaker 2: Long Marriages and Relationships, because you've literally made a podcasts, correct,
Speaker 2: starting a new business in mid like you've recently done that.
Speaker 2: You're doing all kinds of things. But I asked you
Speaker 2: here primarily to talk about something that should be beneath
Speaker 2: us all I think, but actually really gets in our
Speaker 2: way when we're in this phase of life. What we
Speaker 2: look like, beauty, body, are faces, all those things. First
Speaker 2: of all, you're very beautiful. That's very kind.
Speaker 1: Don't you look amazing?
Speaker 3: Thank you?
Speaker 2: And I know, of course, because I've heard you talk
Speaker 2: about it lots of times that even when you were
Speaker 2: a very famous model, that wasn't currency you were particularly
Speaker 2: interested in and it was quite difficult for you to handle.
Speaker 2: But do you feel beautiful?
Speaker 3: I actually feel much more beautiful now than I did
Speaker 3: when I was modeling. Really yeah, and it's only been
Speaker 3: a new experience. I still struggle with, like looking at
Speaker 3: my legs or my cellulide or the belly that overhangs
Speaker 3: the pants, and wish that I could wear the clothes
Speaker 3: that I had, though there's just a feeling now that
Speaker 3: I have in myself that is so much more at
Speaker 3: peace than I was when I was younger and modeling,
Speaker 3: and I didn't ever expect that that would happen. I
Speaker 3: was sitting with a group of women and it was
Speaker 3: a meditation and we were talking about it was sort
Speaker 3: of like the things that are noise about our bodies
Speaker 3: or the things we'd want to change. And I sat
Speaker 3: there and I kind of was like, what do I
Speaker 3: want to change? Like what am I unhappy with? And
Speaker 3: I was like, there's things I want to change about
Speaker 3: how I approach things and how I do some things
Speaker 3: and how I react to some things. But I did
Speaker 3: not come up with anything I wanted to change physically.
Speaker 2: I've heard you talk over the process of this when
Speaker 2: you released Queen Menopause, and you in that book very
Speaker 2: honest diary entries of journal entries rather about various stages
Speaker 2: of this. And so it's been a journey to use
Speaker 2: it overase word to get to that place.
Speaker 3: And I'm not there all the time. I'm certainly not
Speaker 3: there all the time, but I was in that moment
Speaker 3: and I felt really the joy I felt in that
Speaker 3: moment was like, oh, have I actually let it all go?
Speaker 3: Am I actually okay with finally in my physical body.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it wasn't like the glaring list of I
Speaker 3: wish I had longer legs and you know, smooth skin,
Speaker 3: and I didn't have that come up with first. So
Speaker 3: it was interesting.
Speaker 1: That's so good.
Speaker 2: When you were a young model, did you ever think
Speaker 2: about what it would be like to be the sage
Speaker 2: were afraid of aging?
Speaker 3: I was so naive at that age.
Speaker 2: I didn't really.
Speaker 3: Think about sure as hell, didn't think about menopause and
Speaker 3: even cross my mind. But I looked at my mom
Speaker 3: and I knew I didn't want her body shape. I
Speaker 3: remember thinking that I have her exact body shape.
Speaker 2: You know, It's true. I was thinking about this the
Speaker 2: other day and this is probably way tmi. But when
Speaker 2: I was a kid, I was used to talk to
Speaker 2: my mom when she was in the bath. We were
Speaker 2: in a naked house, but that was often a place
Speaker 2: where because she used to have a Bathnili every day English.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course she'd.
Speaker 2: Have a bath Neil every day, and that would sometimes
Speaker 2: be I would go and sit on the toilet seat
Speaker 2: and talk to her, not you know what I mean. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we'd sometimes talk, and so I would look at her body,
Speaker 2: and I'm ashamed to say, but I did used to
Speaker 2: think too, yeah, not terrible. And I also used to
Speaker 2: think that will never be me. There was nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with my mum's body, let's be clear. Yeah, but I
Speaker 2: thought that will never be me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, it's exactly me. I'm identical to my
Speaker 3: mother and my mom. I used to pat my mum's
Speaker 3: tummy in say you get a baby in there, you're
Speaker 3: pregnant mom. The amount of times I've been asked how
Speaker 3: far along I am at the age of fifty four
Speaker 3: is embarrassing. This is truly childhood karma coming back at
Speaker 3: me very much.
Speaker 2: Look, I'm going to be honest and say that right
Speaker 2: now if I was going to ask myself that question
Speaker 2: at the moment, I'm not feeling that great about it.
Speaker 2: Like I think I was feeling better about it. Actually
Speaker 2: when I turn fifty and now I feel like it
Speaker 2: all changes really quickly, and my skin tone and your
Speaker 2: skin texture and all that boring stuff. The things I
Speaker 2: was doing to keep a handle on my weight seemed
Speaker 2: to not be working now, so I'm looking for a
Speaker 2: new fix for that shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But the thing is that sort of compounds feeling bad
Speaker 2: about that stuff is that I also feel like I
Speaker 2: shouldn't care, Like, Yes, how stupid to care about that.
Speaker 2: I am old and wise and I shouldn't care, yes,
Speaker 2: But feeling guilty about that makes it worse.
Speaker 3: And I think that's where the idea of body positivity,
Speaker 3: which of course if it's naturally there for you, it's
Speaker 3: this very fine line where it can actually flip so
Speaker 3: much into shame and guilt for women if you don't
Speaker 3: have it, and then it's another thing to feel shitty
Speaker 3: about yourself that you're not I should feel better, I
Speaker 3: should love my body. You know when am I going
Speaker 3: to love my body? And I think that's a real
Speaker 3: catch for women, because we're sold, you know, this bill
Speaker 3: of goods since day dot what the perfect body should
Speaker 3: look like in the skin, and you know what is
Speaker 3: deemed is the number one look, and then if you
Speaker 3: don't fit that, then you're wrong. But then we're also
Speaker 3: told love your curves, love you cellulate, love who you are,
Speaker 3: and then if you don't feel that either, you're like,
Speaker 3: oh crap, you know, I'm failing and everything. So I
Speaker 3: think it's a really challenging position for women to find
Speaker 3: themselves in if we're not like, I just love my
Speaker 3: muffin top, This is amazing, you know, And I don't
Speaker 3: feel that about my muffin top. You know, I don't
Speaker 3: feel that I wish it would go away. I do,
Speaker 3: but I'm not going to get upset about it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that's the change for me where I used
Speaker 3: to but now it's like I know how to dress
Speaker 3: it up now, to learn those things what works and
Speaker 3: what doesn't work. Now.
Speaker 2: You know, we're supposed to be very wise at this
Speaker 2: stage of life, and we are, but you still have
Speaker 2: good days and bad days in terms of how much
Speaker 2: you care about that. And one of the reasons why
Speaker 2: it can really get in your head, I think, is
Speaker 2: that we worry that what we look like and us
Speaker 2: looking older or middle aged or whatever words we want
Speaker 2: to put around that is not how we feel inside. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: So it's like the push to hold on to some
Speaker 2: kind of youth in terms of what we look like
Speaker 2: is about how we want to be seen by others,
Speaker 2: isn't it?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I mean I think every woman feels that
Speaker 3: invisibility factor when we hit a certain age where you
Speaker 3: just sort of pushed in a certain direction for clothing,
Speaker 3: for skincare, for you can't dress like that at your age.
Speaker 3: You know, you have to change that, you have to
Speaker 3: you know, there's a push in that direction, which I
Speaker 3: think is challenging. And I think you know, I've been
Speaker 3: asked that before. You know, as a model, have you
Speaker 3: found it more confronting to hit menopause and age? And
Speaker 3: I just think it's confronting for most women. I don't
Speaker 3: think whether you're a model or not. I think it
Speaker 3: can be very confronting. You know, as we see, you know,
Speaker 3: my mother's body reflecting back in me at the mirror,
Speaker 3: I'm like, Okay, yeah, this is not how I feel.
Speaker 3: As you say, I still feel like I'm kind of
Speaker 3: twenty one in a lot of ways, and I still
Speaker 3: sometimes think I can shop like a twenty one year old.
Speaker 2: Well, you and I both were in cool trainers to that, Ali,
Speaker 2: that's right.
Speaker 3: From my ankles down, we are twenty one.
Speaker 1: Ankles down, we are exceptionally cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But then it's so funny, I go, I can't
Speaker 3: wear those tight, tight dresses now, and then goes, of
Speaker 3: course you can, of course you can. Who cares if
Speaker 3: you've got a belly? Now, Like, who's the only person caring?
Speaker 2: Really? And it would be me. Yeah, it's true, you know.
Speaker 3: So it's like, yeah, you can, you can if you
Speaker 3: want to, if you want to. So it's like all
Speaker 3: of those machinations.
Speaker 2: The thing about this is that we might make peace
Speaker 2: with I'm getting older, my face looks older, my body
Speaker 2: looks older. Then it feels like we have an array
Speaker 2: of choices about how much to care, how much we're
Speaker 2: going to do about it, right, depending on our resources
Speaker 2: and our priorities. We have options available to us that
Speaker 2: were not available to our mothers, everything from laser to
Speaker 2: UV to micro needling to more invasive things, everything from
Speaker 2: surgery to weight loss injections to keto. Right, we've got
Speaker 2: a never ending barrage of stuff coming at us that
Speaker 2: will You don't have to You don't have to look
Speaker 2: middle aged if you don't want to. Are you comfortable
Speaker 2: talking about what you do and don't do and what
Speaker 2: your lines are?
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
Speaker 2: What do you do?
Speaker 3: I've never had botox or fellows, I've never done anything like.
Speaker 1: Have you ever been tempted to do that?
Speaker 3: Do you know? Just recently, I was looking at my
Speaker 3: friend who she's fifty, so she's a wee bit younger
Speaker 3: than me. She only does her frown lines between the
Speaker 3: eyebrows and minor.
Speaker 2: Quite does that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have quite deep ish ones for me, like
Speaker 3: I certainly see it in photos and you know, selfies
Speaker 3: and all that crap. I'm like, ah, it's only those lines.
Speaker 3: And I think it's because they're frown lines. I love
Speaker 3: my laugh lines, love them. Anything to do with smiling,
Speaker 3: enjoy those lines I love. But those ones are my
Speaker 3: angry lines. And so sometimes I'm like, I don't think
Speaker 3: I want those very much.
Speaker 2: So that would exactly sorry when I said, before MEA
Speaker 2: does that, I should clarify A. She would be so
Speaker 2: cool with me saying that. But also that's what she
Speaker 2: said when she was wrestling with herself about botox and God.
Speaker 2: She wrestled with herself about bow tyes for a very
Speaker 2: long time publicly, of course, she said she just didn't
Speaker 2: want to look pissed off all the time when she
Speaker 2: actually wasn't pissed off. Rest in bitch face and people
Speaker 2: like to think that older women are grumpy anyway, So
Speaker 2: that's a similar thing. It's about that making your outsides
Speaker 2: much insides.
Speaker 3: There, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Do you have a barrier in your mind about doing it?
Speaker 2: Or is it just whether or not you could be bothered?
Speaker 3: It's a bit of a weather or not I could
Speaker 3: be bothered, and I'm slightly terrified. I just think, am
Speaker 3: I going to be that one person that has a
Speaker 3: hideous reaction to it? My husband is delightfully proud of
Speaker 3: the fact that I've never done anything, is he? He
Speaker 3: talks about it all the time. He goes, you know,
Speaker 3: look at your face, honey, you're aging so beautifully.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 3: So many women have done stuff and you haven't done anything.
Speaker 3: And it's really lovely to have someone that sees the
Speaker 3: beauty of my aging. Who is my partner?
Speaker 2: You know? But isn't it funny that it's a compliment.
Speaker 2: I think that my partner would be the same, and
Speaker 2: that he would be a bit judge is probably the
Speaker 2: wrong word, but probably is also the right word. He
Speaker 2: probably would be a bit judgy if I stuff, if
Speaker 2: you do something, yes, yeah, But it's funny that it's
Speaker 2: kind of a compliment when really, how much of it
Speaker 2: is to do with us, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. I mean I am absolutely pro whatever
Speaker 3: you want to do to your face, basically because I
Speaker 3: think as long as it brings you to a place
Speaker 3: of feeling better.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I worry about people that, you know, go on those
Speaker 3: massive plastic face journeys and still feel like crap because
Speaker 3: it hasn't helped what's inside. But if a little tuck
Speaker 3: and injectible really makes you feel better, then go for it.
Speaker 2: Go you know.
Speaker 3: And I've said this before. What I don't like is
Speaker 3: but this is more like from celebrities, is when celebrities
Speaker 3: have had so much work and then they go, oh,
Speaker 3: it's just it's just because I wash my face with
Speaker 3: lemon juice and eat cabbage. No it's not. And that
Speaker 3: makes the rest of us feel like we can't keep up,
Speaker 3: you know. But it's so vicious circle, isn't it. Like
Speaker 3: the whole plastic surgery and everything, It's sort of the
Speaker 3: more women have it, the more we feel we should
Speaker 3: be having it the rest of us. And you know,
Speaker 3: sometimes I think that I've been kind of left behind
Speaker 3: in the plastic surgery injectable thing. It's like, oh, I'm
Speaker 3: fifty four, it's too late to do anything now.
Speaker 2: Maybe I should have done it earlier. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I think now, if I went into and I
Speaker 2: was like, right, I'm going to get this. I'm going
Speaker 2: to get these rinkles sort out here, it would be
Speaker 2: a bit like painting the skirting boards but leaving all
Speaker 2: the walls.
Speaker 3: Yeah, where do you stop? I know, I mean I
Speaker 3: kind of course I know how it works, but I'm like,
Speaker 3: the crevice is already there, So how does botox stop?
Speaker 3: Does it stop me from frowning so the crevices disappear naturally?
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, it would be highly unlikely
Speaker 3: that I will do it. Yeah, I've thought it would
Speaker 3: be nice to not have that. I've thought about doing
Speaker 3: the that freezing off of my stomach. I have definitely
Speaker 3: thought about that. Again, I just I think I have
Speaker 3: a fear of all that sort of stuff, like what
Speaker 3: if something goes wrong? Yeah, So they're the two things
Speaker 3: I've definitely do.
Speaker 2: You are you a because your skin does look amazing,
Speaker 2: But that's not what we're here to say. We're just
Speaker 2: here to go. But you look great. Serum's potions, like,
Speaker 2: do you put a lot of stock in that stuff?
Speaker 2: Not really.
Speaker 3: I do a little bit for my skin. The simpler
Speaker 3: the better. I'm a very simple, simple, simple person. For
Speaker 3: the longest time, I just washed my face with water
Speaker 3: and then I did a Jjoba oil and something called
Speaker 3: Egyptian magic. What's Egyptian magic? I found when we lived
Speaker 3: in La. It's just it's a super super super old recipe,
Speaker 3: like just an oil almost so I did oil on oil.
Speaker 3: I have quite dry skin. I don't know. Sometimes the
Speaker 3: serums don't feel like they I don't like them on
Speaker 3: my skin. I don't like a cream moisturizer loving their retreatment. Botanicals,
Speaker 3: you know that one. I'm living in John's brand, loving
Speaker 3: that at the moment. But sometimes I'll just go back
Speaker 3: to Joba oil and water.
Speaker 2: So you've worked out what works for you and you're
Speaker 2: not tempted to do all the fancy procedures.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of the soul searching and
Speaker 2: worrying about that is a bit passe now, right, Like
Speaker 2: my young friends don't worry about.
Speaker 3: It if they want to go and get absolutely not.
Speaker 2: And I feel like that whatever we do to ourselves.
Speaker 2: It has to be so political, like such a big
Speaker 2: because women's bodies always are right. It's like if whatever
Speaker 2: size they are and whatever you decide to do with it,
Speaker 2: it has to mean something, and that.
Speaker 1: Can be really exhausting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, can't it just mean I don't like my friend line?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I know this is so true because
Speaker 3: my I have a twenty eight to twenty four an
Speaker 3: eighteen year old, and they were sitting there the other
Speaker 3: day at lunch figuring out what procedure they would have
Speaker 3: if they were going to have a procedure, Like it
Speaker 3: was like what would we order for lunch? And including
Speaker 3: my son, who's already figured out I would do this,
Speaker 3: and I would do that, and I do that, the
Speaker 3: twenty eight say, oh what I would do this to
Speaker 3: my lips? And I would do I mean that was
Speaker 3: something I never would have considered at that age.
Speaker 2: And also as a parent, we're like.
Speaker 1: But you're perfect.
Speaker 2: Of course, they don't mess with your face.
Speaker 3: I know you dare start on that train. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: that's so true. It's just an option. It's a health
Speaker 3: care option or a self care option. It's whereas Yeah,
Speaker 3: for me, I feel like it's a dramatic thing to
Speaker 3: go and do, And yeah, am I betraying my womanhood
Speaker 3: for like changing my face somehow? Like and all those
Speaker 3: women that didn't do it. You know, we've got to
Speaker 3: be strong. It's like, no, you don't. You just said
Speaker 3: you just do what you do and if it makes
Speaker 3: you feel good.
Speaker 2: My main deterrent actually is just time. Is I think
Speaker 2: I can barely get my haircut, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I can barely get my haircut. Am I going to
Speaker 2: start a complicated dermatological procedures where I have to be
Speaker 2: there every six weeks for I don't know.
Speaker 3: And your face peels off for a bit? Again? I
Speaker 3: have friends that do a lot of those face peels,
Speaker 3: and stuff in their skin is actually fantastic, So I
Speaker 3: know a lot of the stuff does work.
Speaker 2: There's a gap in our minds between what we think
Speaker 2: we look like and what we look like that sometimes
Speaker 2: we catch now. And maybe this is generational because maybe
Speaker 2: young people don't have that gap so much because they've
Speaker 2: grown up with the front facing phone, so they've looked
Speaker 2: at their faces a lot, and so sometimes when that
Speaker 2: catches you and you get that glimpse a bit like
Speaker 2: your mom's body in the bath. Yeah yeah, you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: and that's back to that or my outside much my
Speaker 2: insides bit and that's why it gets complex.
Speaker 3: And do you think that, like the face filters are
Speaker 3: to blame for a rise in plastic surgery. I mean,
Speaker 3: I know people have said that before the those face filters,
Speaker 3: it's a smoothie skin out that trim.
Speaker 1: You knows that well.
Speaker 2: It used to be very difficult for us to imagine
Speaker 2: what we look like in different ways. Yeah right, I've
Speaker 2: probably got quite a deep and it sounds like maybe
Speaker 2: you do a little bit a deep seed that I
Speaker 2: shouldn't care so much. I mean, obviously don't care that
Speaker 2: much or I would look better, but you know, I
Speaker 2: shouldn't care so much. But I won't put a picture
Speaker 2: of myself up on my Instagram feed if I think
Speaker 2: I look awful, I won't filter it, but I'll choose
Speaker 2: a flattering angle. I'll take three or four pictures to
Speaker 2: choose the one that I this is how I want
Speaker 2: to present myself. So we're all on a scale of
Speaker 2: that representation, aren't we. And then if I see myself
Speaker 2: and I have been filtered, and I go, oh wow,
Speaker 2: I can understand how seductive it is. Yeah, absolutely, and
Speaker 2: I see that my daughter who when she does it,
Speaker 2: I mean, she's a bit beyond this now. But those
Speaker 2: snapchat filters that are really cool, that just make your
Speaker 2: eyes that little bit bigger, and your skin a little
Speaker 2: bit whiter, which is problematic in its own way, and
Speaker 2: your lip's a little bit fuller, and she suddenly just
Speaker 2: looks kind of like the models used to sell us
Speaker 2: bags or your fault.
Speaker 3: I know it's true.
Speaker 2: I'm part of the problem, Holly, But I have a friend.
Speaker 2: We digress, well, we'll come back to the main point.
Speaker 2: But I have a friend. She's a performer and she
Speaker 2: does quite a lot of TV in Asia, and they
Speaker 2: live filter faces now, so when she is on the
Speaker 2: TV there, she has had a filter put over her,
Speaker 2: and she says, it's amazing. You sit backstage and artists
Speaker 2: come off stage and they look so different to what
Speaker 2: you've just seen on the screen.
Speaker 3: While they've do they still do a full face of
Speaker 3: makeup or do they make as well, and then they
Speaker 3: rely somewhat on the filter. That wow.
Speaker 2: So if you think about when you were modeling, I'm
Speaker 2: sure sometimes you were airbrushed.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you.
Speaker 2: Didn't need it, of course, definitelysh you were airbrushed, and
Speaker 2: you know, we all did whatever way you needed to
Speaker 2: be whittled. And now that can happen in real time,
Speaker 2: it does make you wonder what it's going to do
Speaker 2: to our perception of beauty. Yes, if you never have
Speaker 2: to even gaze upon a less than perfect face.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right, and it's a bit scary.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: After the break, Ali shares more about her own struggle
Speaker 2: with body image as a young model and how she
Speaker 2: feels about her body. Now we talk about body image
Speaker 2: and how we're teaching young women to see beauty in
Speaker 2: queen menopause and on no Filter with me, you wrote
Speaker 2: really honestly and beautifully about grappling with changing shape. We've
Speaker 2: touched on this a little bit already, and you wrote,
Speaker 2: I know I'm feeling older than ever, my body shaping
Speaker 2: itself into an actual potato. I really related to that.
Speaker 2: What if this potato shape is permanent? What if this
Speaker 2: is my final resting body shape? Can I love this
Speaker 2: shape just as it is? How do I love my
Speaker 2: body when I hold the comparison to my twenty one
Speaker 2: year old self? Now, wait, is a tricky thing to
Speaker 2: talk about it's taboo. Younger women tell me all the
Speaker 2: time that we shouldn't talk about it at all, But
Speaker 2: most older women I know have some kind of complex
Speaker 2: relationship with their weight, and they do want to talk
Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, and I know that you have and
Speaker 2: do where do you stand on that idea of that
Speaker 2: we should just try and make it less important by
Speaker 2: not focusing on it.
Speaker 3: I would love women to not focus on their weight.
Speaker 3: I would just love women to feel strong and healthy.
Speaker 3: They would be my two things that women focused on
Speaker 3: out of anything, that they are healthy and strong, because
Speaker 3: I think I know that, certainly knowing it enough now
Speaker 3: and speaking to doctors and understanding about how important strength
Speaker 3: is after menopause and what menopause does to your bones
Speaker 3: and once the estrogen drops, and the most important thing
Speaker 3: you can do for yourself is to be strong. So
Speaker 3: I would love for women to feel that that was
Speaker 3: their goal and healthy.
Speaker 2: From the days when you wrote those words, for example,
Speaker 2: to where you are now and you said at the
Speaker 2: beginning of the show that you feel now like I
Speaker 2: wouldn't change it, is that because you've gone through this
Speaker 2: understanding this edge about what happens to your body, and
Speaker 2: so now you've found the ways to make yourself feel stronger, Like,
Speaker 2: do you relate to this person who's worried about being
Speaker 2: potato shan oh?
Speaker 3: God, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's still definitely with me.
Speaker 3: I just don't feel as attached to wanting to be
Speaker 3: the shape I was when I was twenty one. I
Speaker 3: feel like I've now lived in this shaped body long
Speaker 3: enough to go. I don't think this we're going back.
Speaker 3: I think this might be it.
Speaker 2: So it's more maybe about grappling with the chain.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if this is it, are you going to
Speaker 3: talk crap to yourself for the rest of your life
Speaker 3: or are you just going to be okay with what
Speaker 3: you've got now? And that's something that I constantly sort
Speaker 3: of work with, like just going, everything's working, Alli, you
Speaker 3: don't have cancer, you don't have some other disease. You've
Speaker 3: got all your limbs and fingers, your body is working.
Speaker 3: Let's just work on that. I'd tell you something that's
Speaker 3: really actually changed my mind is I don't know where.
Speaker 2: I saw it.
Speaker 3: It was some ad and it was a gentleman, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I guess my age sort of thing, and he said,
Speaker 3: I really want to be strong and healthy for my grandkids,
Speaker 3: And I've got that in my mind now, and I
Speaker 3: don't want to be a size seven. I mean to
Speaker 3: size eight or six for my grandkids. I want to
Speaker 3: be strong, I want to be healthy. I want to
Speaker 3: be able to lift them up. And I want to
Speaker 3: be running on the beach with them. I want to
Speaker 3: be hiking with them. That's kind of where I've shifted
Speaker 3: myself now, like what do I want my future self
Speaker 3: to be? And it's not like bikini ready for the summer.
Speaker 3: It's fit and feeling good and that's helpful.
Speaker 2: Do you think, as my young colleagues tell me all
Speaker 2: the time that our generation has particularly fucked up relationship
Speaker 2: with our bodies. They think that we were very doused
Speaker 2: in toxic diet culture.
Speaker 3: Do the younger colleagues feel like that they're not doused
Speaker 3: in it?
Speaker 2: Jesse, my co host on out Loud, who's in her
Speaker 2: thirties early thirties, she always says that Gen X we
Speaker 2: are very hard on ourselves about our bodies, and she
Speaker 2: thinks it is because we grew up in toxic diet culture,
Speaker 2: which I think we did. Yeah, And it was also
Speaker 2: so normal when we were young that there would be
Speaker 2: ads on the TV telling you how to lose weight fast.
Speaker 2: That every magazine and I worked in magazines, and I mean,
Speaker 2: so did you in a different way, was like lose
Speaker 2: five kilos fast. It was all out there, It was
Speaker 2: all explicit. It was you need to lose weight. Was
Speaker 2: kind of our constant track in our heads. And what
Speaker 2: I wonder, and this is what I argue with Jesse
Speaker 2: about a bit now, is I wonder if that track's
Speaker 2: still there because on Instagram, certainly everybody is thin. TikTok,
Speaker 2: everybody is thin. That we're still presenting all that. But
Speaker 2: now that you're not allowed to say it out loud,
Speaker 2: does that make it better or worse? Do you know
Speaker 2: what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't see anything's changed. I mean, I maybe
Speaker 3: I'm wrong. I'm not, you know, twenty one or thirty
Speaker 3: or whatever. But you know, now we've got talk of
Speaker 3: just taking a a zepic and losing weight, and isn't
Speaker 3: this great? It's the fast way to lose weight. Like,
Speaker 3: we've still got that talk. That's I hear a lot.
Speaker 3: You know, my twenty eight year old still is concerned
Speaker 3: if she puts on weight. My eighteen year old is
Speaker 3: concerned if she loses too much weight.
Speaker 2: So I don't know.
Speaker 3: I haven't seen a change. I think there's still maybe
Speaker 3: there's a slight better look in we're a little bit
Speaker 3: more diverse in who we see on TV now, but
Speaker 3: it's still described as isn't it amazing we've put like
Speaker 3: a size twenty woman on a screen, Like it's still
Speaker 3: like a thing that's like exciting and aren't we incredibly
Speaker 3: amazing that we've decided to cast this person where I
Speaker 3: don't know, it's still not like it's just average sizes
Speaker 3: doing average things, seeing normal people on TV that are
Speaker 3: bigger and smaller and different colors. And it's getting there,
Speaker 3: though I don't think the diet culture has changed. I
Speaker 3: would love it too, but I don't think it has.
Speaker 3: I don't think it has really.
Speaker 2: I just think maybe it's pushed underground a bit, like
Speaker 2: it would be very uncool in my office where I work,
Speaker 2: that anyone would ever say that anybody, you've lost weight,
Speaker 2: you look great, you know, like whereas we used to
Speaker 2: say that to each other all the time, and my
Speaker 2: girlfriends who are a similar age to me still do
Speaker 2: say that absolutely, and that wouldn't be okay to say.
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be okay to sit down at brunch and go,
Speaker 2: I'm not eating carps, even though you might not be
Speaker 2: eating cars do you know what I mean? Right?
Speaker 3: But are they still talking behind other women's backs and going,
Speaker 3: oh my god, she's put on a lot of weight.
Speaker 2: Probably are, I don't know. It's interesting talking about daughters
Speaker 2: is interesting here because my daughter's fourteen. I had my
Speaker 2: kids much later than you were a similar age, so
Speaker 2: you're at a different phase. But she is very you
Speaker 2: can see, you can almost watch their brains switch on
Speaker 2: about it matters a great deal about what I look
Speaker 2: like and what size my body is and my messaging
Speaker 2: to her, and I sometimes worry that I fucked it,
Speaker 2: so you have to tell me if that's true. When
Speaker 2: she was little, I was always like, it doesn't matter
Speaker 2: at all, doesn't matter at all what you look like.
Speaker 2: Bodies are for being strong and doing things. Everybody's beautiful,
Speaker 2: like all of that's yeah, right, And then I have
Speaker 2: a very clear memory of her. Maybe it was just
Speaker 2: when she went to high school, just before high school,
Speaker 2: going for a walk with her and me saying to her,
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what you look like, and her saying like
Speaker 2: almost sheepishly.
Speaker 1: Mom, it really matters.
Speaker 2: Everybody talks about it all the time. You know that person,
Speaker 2: she could see the split, she could see my lie
Speaker 2: in a way. How have you dealt with your daughters
Speaker 2: and talking about beauty and body?
Speaker 3: You know, it was something that I was hyper aware of,
Speaker 3: hyper aware of, and I think I fucked it, and
Speaker 3: I know I fucked it, actually, And the way I
Speaker 3: fucked it was I would say outwardly unkind things about
Speaker 3: my appearance in front of my children. All mess that
Speaker 3: up big time. How can I turn to them and say,
Speaker 3: everybody's beautiful, you're perfect, and look in the mirror and go,
Speaker 3: oh god, this doesn't fit. I've put on so much weight.
Speaker 3: I can't wear this dress anymore. I remember my youngest
Speaker 3: at one point saying, I hate it when you talk
Speaker 3: to yourself like that.
Speaker 1: That's so good.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's awful that you did, but it's good
Speaker 2: that she said that. That was the first.
Speaker 3: Thing that I remember going, that's got to be the
Speaker 3: last time. If you're going to say it, say internally, like,
Speaker 3: do not speak it out loud. Actually, it was, honestly
Speaker 3: one of the first things that started changing my judgment
Speaker 3: of myself. Just stop saying it out loud, like one step,
Speaker 3: don't say it out loud, because I think it has
Speaker 3: more power if you say it out loud, and especially
Speaker 3: in a room full of people or in front of people. Plus,
Speaker 3: I also had that thing, and I talk a little
Speaker 3: bit about that in the book too, is that I
Speaker 3: always felt nervous around women. It was so weird. I
Speaker 3: know it sounds crazy, but I felt nervous around women
Speaker 3: being a model, that they would think I was up
Speaker 3: myself for being a model. So the first thing I
Speaker 3: always did was start to put myself down. It was
Speaker 3: the first thing I would say, whether it was I'm
Speaker 3: not very smart, or yeah, I'm so flat chested, or
Speaker 3: I've got this, I've got that, because I thought that
Speaker 3: was the way I'm going to get liked. I'm not
Speaker 3: going to be liked for being pretty amongst other women,
Speaker 3: but if I put myself below you, then we might
Speaker 3: be able to have a connection. Eh, that doesn't really work.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, did that work?
Speaker 3: No, No, not at all. And that's one of the
Speaker 3: things that modeling is a negative. For modeling, that was
Speaker 3: one of the things I had to really undo and
Speaker 3: it was really you know, hearing my daughter's going I
Speaker 3: can't stand it when you say how mean you are
Speaker 3: to yourself.
Speaker 2: That's amazing because one of the things that's very relatable
Speaker 2: about that I tried to never talk about body or
Speaker 2: weight in front of my ca kids, but the number
Speaker 2: of times that they would have seen me glance in
Speaker 2: a mirror and go ough yeah. And the idea of
Speaker 2: us looking at ourselves and going and then catching myself
Speaker 2: and going, oh throats. When you actually take that out
Speaker 2: of context and look at it from a helicopter, you're like,
Speaker 2: how awful that we do that to ourselves, no matter
Speaker 2: what we look like, whether we are models, whether we're not.
Speaker 2: You've felt instinctively, I've got to pull myself back, and
Speaker 2: then you probably began to believe the script. You were
Speaker 2: telling yourself that you are smart and you weren't this,
Speaker 2: and you weren't that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean being a model, you're not booked
Speaker 3: for your brains. You're not booked for how you can
Speaker 3: understand this topic, or you're eloquent. It's like smile and
Speaker 3: look pretty, and that was it. So and that's what
Speaker 3: I became famous for. So it's taken me years to
Speaker 3: get to a point where I felt like I had
Speaker 3: something to say and someone might find it helpful or interesting,
Speaker 3: you know. So, yeah, that was a long piece to
Speaker 3: undo as well.
Speaker 2: I always though that, even though, as you say, you're
Speaker 2: not booked for being pretty, models probably have a different
Speaker 2: relationship with criticism because you also get a lot more
Speaker 2: of that, probably than your average person. I was thinking
Speaker 2: about recently. I could probably tell you specifically some times
Speaker 2: that people have commented on my appearance and it would
Speaker 2: have really hurt my Yeah right, I remember a time
Speaker 2: when my mom years ago commented on my weight. I
Speaker 2: could still remember like what I was looking at out
Speaker 2: of the window and what the days smelt like and
Speaker 2: all those things, because it really hurt me. But being
Speaker 2: a teenage model, you probably going to castings where people
Speaker 2: were like too short, too tall, too blond, to this,
Speaker 2: to that too, Like so what does that do? Do
Speaker 2: you become better at handling it or do you just
Speaker 2: hate yourself?
Speaker 3: I think it's a little bit of both actually, But yeah,
Speaker 3: that's a very very good point, because that's the thing.
Speaker 3: You can be standing there and you can have six
Speaker 3: people who are looking at you like a painting, going yeah, look,
Speaker 3: she's got too many moles on that side of her back.
Speaker 3: Can we like cover those up? Cover those up? Like
Speaker 3: that doesn't look good? Yeah, like boobs are really small,
Speaker 3: Like give us something more. Oh, Ali, you just need
Speaker 3: to stand up a bit because when you slouch, like
Speaker 3: your belly pokes out, you know. I mean, it's just like, okay,
Speaker 3: what do I do? How do I eat? And you know,
Speaker 3: suck in, suck in now, And of course you get
Speaker 3: the oh you look gorgeous and blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: But of course it's almost like you're waiting for the
Speaker 3: criticism to go. Okay, is there a butt in there?
Speaker 3: Is there a butt your hair? Or but this or
Speaker 3: but that? Or striving to change this or striving to
Speaker 3: get better? And I couldn't change my skin. My skin's
Speaker 3: got a lot of freckles and moles. It was like, okay,
Speaker 3: well I lost that job because I couldn't make that disappear.
Speaker 3: So there's an enormous amount of criticism leveled. I think
Speaker 3: it models and people say, well, that's your job, you know,
Speaker 3: you put yourself in that position and that's your job.
Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, but I didn't sign up for
Speaker 3: the criticism.
Speaker 2: Wow. I was like, can't you just keep it quiet.
Speaker 2: Do I have to hear it like you say it?
Speaker 2: What I've left the.
Speaker 3: Room the first time, because when I grew up in
Speaker 3: an era of you know, you'd do a polaroid, wait
Speaker 3: for the polaroid to dry, and you'd look at it
Speaker 3: and you'd go, okay, let's change the lighting. Then you'd
Speaker 3: shoot and it was film. You had no idea what
Speaker 3: those photographs were going to look like until they turned
Speaker 3: up in a magazine. But here I remember coming back,
Speaker 3: having not modeled for years and years, I came back.
Speaker 3: I don't know what I was shooting. I was shooting something.
Speaker 3: And now you stand there and everyone's looking at the
Speaker 3: computer monitor because every photograph's popping up on the computer monitor.
Speaker 3: And I remember this job that they were airbrushing as
Speaker 3: they went. They were like, yeah, just get rid of
Speaker 3: the lines under the dark circles. We'll just smooth those out.
Speaker 3: So I remember just standing behind the photographer and you know,
Speaker 3: computer operator as they fixed me in real time, this going.
Speaker 2: This is a zum watching yourself change is into this very.
Speaker 3: Yes, just get rid of that. And whenever I do
Speaker 3: a photo shoot for anything, and they said, you want
Speaker 3: to come see the photos on the computer. I said,
Speaker 3: absolutely not, that's good. I never want to see it.
Speaker 3: And apparently a lot of old school models, which I
Speaker 3: consider myself one, don't like to see it. It's too
Speaker 3: off putting.
Speaker 2: No, I don't want to know.
Speaker 3: No, just take a nice photo and print it.
Speaker 2: That's fine. This is interesting about retraining ourselves. You know
Speaker 2: how you were saying that after hearing your daughter say
Speaker 2: to you, I hate hearing you talk like that, and
Speaker 2: you were like, right, I'm going to stop saying that
Speaker 2: out loud. I do that a bit with you know,
Speaker 2: we were talking before about whether or not our generation
Speaker 2: was particularly brutal on ourselves and each other about our bodies.
Speaker 2: I do that in terms of retraining myself not to
Speaker 2: constantly comment on women's appearances. Yes, when they're on TV,
Speaker 2: for example, Yes, you know, so the news readers on TV.
Speaker 2: And if my mom was there, my mom would say
Speaker 2: what hair?
Speaker 1: Oh you know, oh.
Speaker 2: That color does nothing for her. That would be my
Speaker 2: mom for sure.
Speaker 3: My mom would go look at the size of her,
Speaker 3: how did she get to be that big? Yeah, I'm like,
Speaker 3: oh my god.
Speaker 2: So I've trained myself to not comment. Yes, and it
Speaker 2: does change your behavior, ye, Like it really does. So
Speaker 2: do you think that that comment from your daughter, as
Speaker 2: well as a lot of the things you've been through
Speaker 2: in the last few years with menopause and other things,
Speaker 2: have helped you get to this place of not being
Speaker 2: so critical of your body as you literally trained yourself
Speaker 2: out of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, I had to really work at it. It
Speaker 3: wasn't just a natural progression. It was just a big
Speaker 3: awakening around a whole lot of things. And part of
Speaker 3: that was, you know, going through menopause and having a perimenopause,
Speaker 3: having a really rough shot with it, and just thinking
Speaker 3: about how much women go through, Just thinking about how
Speaker 3: much pain we go through physically every month, you know,
Speaker 3: women with endometriosis, women going through labor. It's so much
Speaker 3: that we deal with day in and day out with
Speaker 3: our physical bodies that we put aside, we work through,
Speaker 3: we show up for work still, we show up to school.
Speaker 3: We push through the pain. And then it was like
Speaker 3: and then menopause, I was like, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: Are you serious?
Speaker 2: This is not right?
Speaker 3: So it was like, Okay, I am not going to
Speaker 3: push through anything anymore. I am not gonna go Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm fine, I'll keep going, I'll keep doing it. I'm
Speaker 3: going to actually really take care of myself for the
Speaker 3: first time. And I've been so mean to my body
Speaker 3: for so long as I think the culture has and
Speaker 3: it's hard not to see yourself the way culture does.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, no, fuck it, Yes, I'm going to
Speaker 3: be really nice to myself now, and I'm going to
Speaker 3: give myself the self care that it's my body's always
Speaker 3: wanted and all the nice words it's always wanted. And
Speaker 3: I'm actually going to start to do it now. And
Speaker 3: that's been, you know, a work in progress, but it's
Speaker 3: actually made a huge, huge difference.
Speaker 2: After the break, Ali and I talk about the falling
Speaker 2: midlife libido and how women can feel sexy and sensual
Speaker 2: when we're always in such a critical conversation with ourselves.
Speaker 2: You also wrote in Queen Menopause a lot about libido
Speaker 2: plunge and not feeling sexual.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: That is something that is so common for us at
Speaker 2: this time in our life, and that comes, just like
Speaker 2: all the other stuff, with a lot of shame. Yeah. Sure,
Speaker 2: and sometimes it can be to do with hate how
Speaker 2: my body looks. This isn't what sexy is, Yep. This
Speaker 2: is not what anybody has ever ever told me that
Speaker 2: sexy is as well as hormonal plunges that are just meaning.
Speaker 2: I would rather eat a box of hair. After being
Speaker 2: so honest about that, writing so beautifully about it in
Speaker 2: your book, how have you wrangled that?
Speaker 3: I actually think that's probably the last vestige of the
Speaker 3: place that's the most challenging for me. I can do
Speaker 3: it with myself in partnership with Cam and feeling myself
Speaker 3: that sensual, sexy self in this body. Now, that is
Speaker 3: my last challenge to really overcome. He's great. I've actually
Speaker 3: given him dialogue to say I must say. I had
Speaker 3: to do that because he will say things that are like, okay,
Speaker 3: can we just back up on that comment, honey, because
Speaker 3: that does not help me at all. I remember this.
Speaker 3: The one comment was like I was looking in the mirror,
Speaker 3: going I just hate my legs. They look like they've melted.
Speaker 3: I have cankles and like everything's just melted downwards. And
Speaker 3: he was like, oh, honey, he goes, I don't know
Speaker 3: why they look like that. Why do they look like that?
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, do you need I mean, we
Speaker 3: could exercise more. It was like the wrong thing to say.
Speaker 3: He was like, I know you were trying to be caring.
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, no, here's the dialogue. I love your legs,
Speaker 3: I love you, I love everything about you. I love
Speaker 3: the changes. You're amazing. I'll always love you. So now
Speaker 3: I've given him that script. That's what he says everything.
Speaker 2: Yes, sometimes they need a script, and sometimes we need
Speaker 2: a script too, because I think we talked about this
Speaker 2: when we had a conversation for the Very Perry Summit.
Speaker 2: But talking to your partner about how you feel about
Speaker 2: your changing body, especially if you've been together a long time,
Speaker 2: can be really hard because you don't want them to
Speaker 2: stop seeing you. Yes, as an attractive sexual person, but
Speaker 2: at the same time, you don't feel like an attractive
Speaker 2: sexual person. I did an interview with you and Joe
Speaker 2: Elvin about this, and I actually went home after it
Speaker 2: and spoke to my partner because it was like I
Speaker 2: needed a script too of what to say. And I
Speaker 2: wonder if you've got any youthful tips about that, for like,
Speaker 2: the women who were in a place closer to the
Speaker 2: way you were when you were really like, what the
Speaker 2: fuck is happening? Yeah, and you've got to express it
Speaker 2: to the people around you. What was good? What was useful.
Speaker 3: I think sometimes it helps to blow off steam more
Speaker 3: with your girlfriends about how you're feeling. I think there
Speaker 3: is something in that where Cam didn't notice the beard
Speaker 3: I was growing on my gym, He did not notice
Speaker 3: that I was the most observant. They're still seen.
Speaker 2: They don't give a shit.
Speaker 3: They don't give a shit. They just want to know
Speaker 3: that you love them. They want to know that you
Speaker 3: care about them because they're going through changes as well,
Speaker 3: you know. And I've seen my husband go through dealing
Speaker 3: with you know, gray hair and a bit of a
Speaker 3: paunch or whatever he's got going on. You know, the
Speaker 3: whole sex libido thing is that's a whole challenge in
Speaker 3: itself because, as you say, there's a simply got chemicals happening.
Speaker 3: It's a chemical thing that's going on in your body
Speaker 3: with your hormones, where the libido is just nowhere to
Speaker 3: be found in the building. But you've got everything else
Speaker 3: that's happening, the stress of menopause, the stress of parents,
Speaker 3: you've got the stress of young kids, sometimes the sandwich
Speaker 3: generation as you know it's called, and so much happening,
Speaker 3: and then the need of your partner to connect with
Speaker 3: you on a physical level where it's like the last
Speaker 3: thing you want to be doing, you know. I say
Speaker 3: that in the sense of talk to your girlfriends about it.
Speaker 3: I feel lucky that I've got a husband that really
Speaker 3: really wants to know what's going on. And when he
Speaker 3: knows what's going on with me, he feels better because
Speaker 3: he's always trying to fix something and try to figure
Speaker 3: out why I feel sad or why I don't want
Speaker 3: to get undressed in front of him, because he thinks
Speaker 3: it's about him. He thinks that it's about that I
Speaker 3: don't like him anymore. And when I say I'm just
Speaker 3: having a real shameful moment about the changes in my
Speaker 3: body and I'm feeling slightly embarrassed about who i am
Speaker 3: now and that you won't find me attractive anymore, I
Speaker 3: mean that was shocking to Cam. It's like, what do
Speaker 3: you mean? You know? So, I think being honest like
Speaker 3: that really really helps. And honest, you know, I always say,
Speaker 3: if it is menopause or whatever that's changed your body
Speaker 3: and just growing older and your partner knowing that a
Speaker 3: lot of those changes just could not be helped because
Speaker 3: it's due to estrogen deficiency or whatever is happening. I
Speaker 3: think taking a partner along to like doctor visits with
Speaker 3: you and filling them in on what you understand about
Speaker 3: menopause and the changes in your body. I think that
Speaker 3: really helps them as well. And then of course finding
Speaker 3: ways to connect. That's if you're not feeling sexual, you know,
Speaker 3: a massage, massaging their feed or doing holding hands and
Speaker 3: words of love. Like that's why we work on a
Speaker 3: lot of the time. Oh, sometimes can goes. I just
Speaker 3: want you to tell me that you're still into me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just what you to say?
Speaker 3: You're still into me and you still find me attractive.
Speaker 3: Like that's just what he needs because if I was
Speaker 3: having sex with him, that would be the stamp that
Speaker 3: that was what I was feeling. But if that's not happening,
Speaker 3: then you're I need you to tell me now. So
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, I get that.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it, Because in straight relationships, I think
Speaker 2: the stereotype is that men don't care. Do you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? But that's not true. Yeah, it's not
Speaker 2: true at all. No, No, the self esteem is also
Speaker 2: fragile at this time and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2: How are you going with and I know you don't
Speaker 2: have an empty nest quite, but it's emptying out or
Speaker 2: how very like, how's the transition?
Speaker 3: I found it really difficult at first, really really difficult.
Speaker 3: When our first child left the nest. I mourned that
Speaker 3: for quite some time. It's one of those funny things too,
Speaker 3: where you know, you speak to some parents and they're like, yes,
Speaker 3: but you let them go, you let them fly. You
Speaker 3: know you can't keep hold of them for ever, And
Speaker 3: I'm like, I know that, but it doesn't mean I'm
Speaker 3: not going to be really sad that that family of
Speaker 3: five is now no longer. There's no more sitting around
Speaker 3: the dinner table at night and being privy to the
Speaker 3: ins and outs of her life every day and having
Speaker 3: conversations whenever we want.
Speaker 2: Like the loss of that, Oh I'm going to cry.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really really struggled, really struggled with it. And
Speaker 3: then when my son left, that was a whole other
Speaker 3: morning as well. Yet I can say, now we're about
Speaker 3: two three years on from that, the change in our
Speaker 3: relationships or my relationships with the two older kids is
Speaker 3: something I really treasure now, and it's become a different
Speaker 3: kind of level of conversation and interest in you're where
Speaker 3: it does become more two adults loving each other and
Speaker 3: having shared interests and being able to still talk about
Speaker 3: your childhood but still talking about other more adult worldly things,
Speaker 3: and it's quite lovely.
Speaker 2: And I guess it becomes well, ideally, it's now a
Speaker 2: relationship of choice, right, Yeah, is that they will hang
Speaker 2: out with you because they want to. Well, and maybe
Speaker 2: they need something, but they want to. It's something that
Speaker 2: they choose to do now rather than while you live here,
Speaker 2: so you have to see me every day. That's so true.
Speaker 2: And do you allow yourself to feel like a sense
Speaker 2: of accomplishment that they want to be around you and
Speaker 2: that the adult relationship is good?
Speaker 3: Yes and no. Like there's also been conversations, particularly with
Speaker 3: my son, where which I'm grateful to have, where he's
Speaker 3: shared things from his childhood that were especially painful, of
Speaker 3: things that we thought we were doing the best thing
Speaker 3: for him and in fact it was really hurtful. So
Speaker 3: there are moments like that where you go, oh, my god,
Speaker 3: if only I could go back and change that aspect.
Speaker 3: So there's those moments where sometimes I don't feel so accomplished,
Speaker 3: where I go I mess that up for him, But
Speaker 3: at least I go. He still wants to spend time
Speaker 3: with us. He's still wanting to come over, and he's
Speaker 3: still willing to share things about his childhood, and I'm
Speaker 3: just grateful that I have that with him. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: I go back and forth with that, but look, if
Speaker 3: I took a step back, I think we've done a
Speaker 3: pretty bloody good job with the kids. They are good
Speaker 3: people that I know. They are good people with good morals,
Speaker 3: and they're kind and loving, and I'm like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's good.
Speaker 2: I'll take that. They sound really good. Before we go,
Speaker 2: we're not here to talk about menopause, even though we
Speaker 2: have a little bit. But you are Queen menopause? Where
Speaker 2: are you up to? Like I kind of I feel like,
Speaker 2: you know, when I was preparing for our conversation, I
Speaker 2: was revisiting a lot of the things you were talking
Speaker 2: about around the book and you have really gone through it, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we know all of our experiences are different. What's it
Speaker 2: like where you are now?
Speaker 3: I am most definitely postmenopause, which I was not when
Speaker 3: I was writing that book. And I think that having
Speaker 3: spoken to a bunch of women about postmenopause for the
Speaker 3: book and then of course, since touring the book and
Speaker 3: starting Aviana, the wellness platform for menopause or women that
Speaker 3: we've started, and just hearing further stories of women postmenopause,
Speaker 3: I got really really excited about postmenopause. I did feel
Speaker 3: the light at the end of the tunnel, and that's
Speaker 3: something that I'm really passionate about that women should know
Speaker 3: about because it can be a shit show. And to
Speaker 3: know that you will not always feel like that, you
Speaker 3: will not always feel as bad as you do right now,
Speaker 3: and there is help out there. Maybe for some women
Speaker 3: it comes automatically, naturally that the birds start singing again
Speaker 3: and you start sleeping and everything's magically delicious. I do
Speaker 3: know that I had to work at feeling better, and
Speaker 3: I have done a lot around that, you know, with
Speaker 3: exercise and diet and mindset and stuff. But I do
Speaker 3: feel happier within myself than I can ever remember.
Speaker 2: That is something to look forward to.
Speaker 3: It.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the one thing you would tell somebody who's
Speaker 2: where you were.
Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely continue to seek assistance and help. Don't just
Speaker 3: go I'll just put up with it till this is over.
Speaker 3: There is a lot of great help out there, and yeah,
Speaker 3: to know that there is definitely a world, a life
Speaker 3: experience is ahead of you that are really joyful and
Speaker 3: fun and wonderful, and now is the time, more than
Speaker 3: your entire life experience, you deserve to be well taken
Speaker 3: care of and do it. Spend the money on yourself
Speaker 3: if you can do it.
Speaker 2: Don't think that.
Speaker 3: Oh I can't. You know, oh I don't have the time.
Speaker 3: Make the time for you. It's so important.
Speaker 1: A bloody love Ali Dado.
Speaker 2: I've spoken to her a few times over the years
Speaker 2: because of some of you all know. I've worked with
Speaker 2: her brother in law for the longest time. We hosted
Speaker 2: a show together called This Glorious Mess. And every time
Speaker 2: I've interviewed her about family, about menopause, about this issue,
Speaker 2: I find her just very real and very honest and
Speaker 2: very thoughtful. I know you want to know, so I'm
Speaker 2: also going to tell you, yes, she looks bloody great.
Speaker 2: Not great for her age, but great for any age.
Speaker 2: You can see the pictures for yourself. But she came
Speaker 2: into the studio in a very cool dead and boiler suit,
Speaker 2: all hair and glowing skin and big grin. She looks
Speaker 2: like she's settled into that place. I said, I wanted
Speaker 2: to get to in my intro a place of comfort
Speaker 2: and confidence, but knowing midlife, it might just be a visit.
Speaker 2: Because Holly knows what'll come next. It just keeps throwing curveballs,
Speaker 2: which is why, of course, we're going to be back
Speaker 2: very soon with season three of your show, and we'll
Speaker 2: be talking about divorce and change and food and sexuality
Speaker 2: and you know, more of the good stuff. I can't
Speaker 2: thank you all enough for being here with us through
Speaker 2: season two of Mid Please if this body image conversation resonated,
Speaker 2: go and listen to our conversation from season one with
Speaker 2: Helen Thorn about bodies because she was hilarious and honest
Speaker 2: about her midlife body transformation. And you're going to laugh
Speaker 2: so much again a week. But anyway, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 2: and thank you to our mid team. That's our EP
Speaker 2: name A Brown, our producers to Elisabezazz and Charlie Blackman.
Speaker 2: Sound design and audio production from Leah Porge's and Tom Lyon,
Speaker 2: and social media video production by Josh Green. And I'm
Speaker 2: Holly Wainwright. And we'll see you back here in just
Speaker 2: a few weeks.
Speaker 4: On October the fifteenth, not long ago, goodbye.
Speaker 1: Then