WEBVTT - What Every Woman Needs To Hear From Her Ex 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:20.207 that this podcast is recorded on Hello, Hello, out Louders. 0:00:20.247 --> 0:00:23.487 Before we get started on your show today, myself, Mia 0:00:23.527 --> 0:00:26.007 and Jesse just want to give you the biggest thank you, 0:00:26.047 --> 0:00:29.967 the biggest audio hug because Apple Podcasts have just released 0:00:29.967 --> 0:00:32.847 their wrap up of twenty twenty four and Mama Mia 0:00:32.927 --> 0:00:36.127 Out Loud is officially the fourth biggest podcast in the 0:00:36.287 --> 0:00:39.967 entire nation and the biggest show for women in the country. 0:00:40.447 --> 0:00:44.127 We obviously wouldn't be there without you listening to us. 0:00:44.167 --> 0:00:47.087 Stay in, day out, week in, week out. We absolutely 0:00:47.247 --> 0:00:50.167 love making this show for you and it's just overwhelming 0:00:50.327 --> 0:00:53.207 that you are showing us that love right back. So 0:00:53.287 --> 0:01:00.287 thank you out Louders, and now here's your show. Hello, 0:01:00.567 --> 0:01:02.847 and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud and to our 0:01:02.887 --> 0:01:05.207 Friday show. You know the drill. If you're a regular 0:01:05.247 --> 0:01:08.727 out louder on Friday, we do not do new cycle stories, 0:01:09.407 --> 0:01:12.287 talk about other stuff that's obsessing us, and give us 0:01:12.367 --> 0:01:15.687 all a break from the shouty headlines. It's Friday, the 0:01:15.727 --> 0:01:18.887 twenty second of November, and I'm Hollywaynwright, I'm Mea Friedman, 0:01:18.967 --> 0:01:22.367 and I'm Jesse stevens An on today's show. There has 0:01:22.527 --> 0:01:25.567 never been more to distract us, but we're more bored 0:01:25.687 --> 0:01:30.247 than ever before. What's that about? Also recommendations including some 0:01:30.327 --> 0:01:33.647 funny women talking about my favorite subject, a new podcast, 0:01:33.767 --> 0:01:36.647 Baby in Our Family, and a TV show to watch 0:01:36.687 --> 0:01:41.047 this weekend. Also a formal apology from me MEA's new 0:01:41.087 --> 0:01:44.447 Nana name, and Jesse's Saturday Night encounter It's best and 0:01:44.527 --> 0:01:46.527 Worst of the week, But first. 0:01:46.687 --> 0:01:49.007 In case you missed it, there is a scientific reason 0:01:49.207 --> 0:01:54.167 that women get the ick. Prey, prey, don't what Morgan? 0:01:55.247 --> 0:01:57.607 Okay, fine, fine, I have the ech I know. 0:01:57.927 --> 0:01:58.567 Are you happy? 0:01:59.607 --> 0:02:01.367 I can't believe I ever let him touch me with 0:02:01.407 --> 0:02:02.967 those giant flower holding here. 0:02:03.047 --> 0:02:06.367 Oh the eck. You know it always seems to find 0:02:06.367 --> 0:02:08.687 a way. If you're not familiar with the ick, you're 0:02:08.767 --> 0:02:12.527 very fortunate. It's a modern slang term that has been 0:02:12.687 --> 0:02:16.527 used to describe that sudden feeling of disgust or repulsion 0:02:16.967 --> 0:02:20.767 that you get towards someone you had previously wanted to 0:02:20.807 --> 0:02:24.567 be naked with, usually because of something they did or 0:02:24.607 --> 0:02:28.567 said or or ye. But scientists are claiming that it's 0:02:28.647 --> 0:02:32.887 actually an evolutionary survival tactic. It's your body trying to 0:02:32.967 --> 0:02:36.207 protect you. Because female prime who. 0:02:36.007 --> 0:02:38.967 Wear songs, well, yes, female. 0:02:38.487 --> 0:02:44.687 Primates are more easily disgusted than their male counterparts by food, potential, mates, 0:02:45.047 --> 0:02:49.247 and even neighbors. That's because women have evolved to be 0:02:49.327 --> 0:02:52.967 more easily grossed out in order to protect ourselves. So 0:02:53.047 --> 0:02:57.247 our sensitivity to the ick. Also, in terms of a 0:02:57.287 --> 0:03:01.887 sexual mate, you don't want to mate with someone who 0:03:01.967 --> 0:03:04.007 might put something yucky in you. 0:03:04.647 --> 0:03:04.727 One. 0:03:04.847 --> 0:03:09.007 Also, I think that it's because of pregnancy and child 0:03:09.487 --> 0:03:12.887 apparently wear more risk of certain diseases and all that 0:03:12.927 --> 0:03:16.727 kind of stuff. So it's not imagined women get the 0:03:17.127 --> 0:03:18.447 easier than men do exactly. 0:03:18.487 --> 0:03:21.007 And you know this if you've ever been in a 0:03:21.047 --> 0:03:24.687 situation in a bed with a man and you have 0:03:24.767 --> 0:03:29.167 the flu or something, I don't know, gastrom he doesn't 0:03:29.167 --> 0:03:34.127 get the hick. However, a sick man is very unattractive 0:03:34.727 --> 0:03:37.967 to a straight female. If a man mates with a 0:03:38.007 --> 0:03:40.527 sick woman, that's kind of her problem, you know, back 0:03:40.567 --> 0:03:43.807 in the day. But the other way around, it actually 0:03:43.807 --> 0:03:47.727 imperils the woman. So we are biologically programmed to be 0:03:48.167 --> 0:03:49.607 very ex sensitive. 0:03:50.447 --> 0:03:51.527 This is borry. 0:03:51.967 --> 0:03:53.407 I'm so bored. 0:03:54.007 --> 0:03:58.727 This week I came across some really interesting research on boredom. 0:03:59.287 --> 0:04:02.927 The amount of time young people spend being bored appears 0:04:03.007 --> 0:04:06.287 to be on the rise, despite us being in the 0:04:06.367 --> 0:04:10.007 age of literally endless entertainment. So there was a paper 0:04:10.087 --> 0:04:13.167 in the journal Communication Psychology which found that over the 0:04:13.247 --> 0:04:16.887 last fifteen years, with data drawn from the US and 0:04:16.927 --> 0:04:21.407 from China, very big data sets, people reported being more 0:04:21.527 --> 0:04:24.807 bored now. James dan Kirt, who is a professor of 0:04:24.847 --> 0:04:29.247 cognitive neuroscience, says that boredom serves a really important function, 0:04:29.527 --> 0:04:33.167 which is to press us to explore the world. It 0:04:33.207 --> 0:04:37.127 propels us into action. And when we feel bored, we 0:04:37.167 --> 0:04:43.247 don't just want entertainment. We often want something unpredictable or meaningful. 0:04:43.567 --> 0:04:46.607 He says. When you start scrolling on your phone, a 0:04:46.687 --> 0:04:49.767 ton of what you're going to see there is highly predictable, 0:04:49.807 --> 0:04:52.487 and this is because of algorithms, and they know what 0:04:52.527 --> 0:04:55.447 we want. And the more predictable our world becomes, the 0:04:55.527 --> 0:04:59.007 less meaningful it is, and therefore the more boring it becomes. 0:04:59.207 --> 0:05:02.767 So the infinite scroll is about I'm looking for a 0:05:02.807 --> 0:05:05.567 dopamine here, which is something that's going to be interesting 0:05:05.607 --> 0:05:08.287 to me, which is harder and harder to find because 0:05:08.327 --> 0:05:09.847 I know it's just going to say served me more 0:05:09.887 --> 0:05:12.447 of what I had been consuming. 0:05:12.047 --> 0:05:13.087 Exactly and everything. 0:05:13.127 --> 0:05:16.047 Whereas if you were to walk outside or go for 0:05:16.087 --> 0:05:19.247 a walk around the block or have a social interaction, 0:05:19.727 --> 0:05:22.567 then anything could happen. That's where spontaneity. 0:05:22.287 --> 0:05:24.527 Actually that you get more bored in your bubble. 0:05:24.927 --> 0:05:28.447 Bubbles are bored. Yeah, bubbles are incredibly boring. So this 0:05:28.567 --> 0:05:31.607 study made me think about the last time I was bored. 0:05:31.647 --> 0:05:33.647 So we asked around the mum and mea office and 0:05:33.687 --> 0:05:35.007 here's what they said. 0:05:35.767 --> 0:05:38.367 The last time I was really bored is when I 0:05:38.447 --> 0:05:41.887 went free camping with my dad and he went fishing 0:05:41.967 --> 0:05:44.287 and took the car which had my book and all 0:05:44.367 --> 0:05:47.367 the fun things that could keep me sane inside of it, 0:05:47.887 --> 0:05:50.167 and he just left me with the camp gear and 0:05:50.207 --> 0:05:54.727 I was just sitting around looking at nature, me and 0:05:54.767 --> 0:05:56.727 my thoughts, and it wasn't. 0:05:56.527 --> 0:05:57.807 A very good idea. 0:05:57.927 --> 0:06:00.047 The last time I was really bored is when I 0:06:00.087 --> 0:06:02.727 got on a long flight and I realized there was 0:06:02.767 --> 0:06:05.247 no in flight entertainment and I had nothing with me. 0:06:05.527 --> 0:06:07.527 Probably now, because my partner and I are looking at 0:06:07.567 --> 0:06:08.447 getting into crocheting. 0:06:08.807 --> 0:06:11.087 So I can't recall the last time I was bored 0:06:11.207 --> 0:06:13.767 because I feel like you get to a certain age 0:06:13.807 --> 0:06:15.407 and if you're one of those people that can enjoy 0:06:15.447 --> 0:06:18.247 your own company, it's not boredom. It's just a pause 0:06:18.527 --> 0:06:20.527 and it's nice to have a rest sometimes. 0:06:20.727 --> 0:06:23.527 The last time I was bored was on my very 0:06:23.607 --> 0:06:25.807 bigger two hour commute to work. 0:06:27.127 --> 0:06:28.607 I'm a little bit bored now. 0:06:29.647 --> 0:06:31.647 From listening to people talk about, well. 0:06:31.567 --> 0:06:36.887 In all seriousness, when your brain doesn't make enough dopamine, 0:06:37.247 --> 0:06:40.327 and you know that's one of the symptoms of neurodiversity. 0:06:40.807 --> 0:06:44.887 For me, boredom is actually uncomfortable. I can't explain it. 0:06:44.967 --> 0:06:46.687 And this is the thing, right, Boredom is, as a 0:06:46.767 --> 0:06:49.367 universal human experience, uncomfortable, but it's a different type of 0:06:49.407 --> 0:06:50.807 discomfort if you're a neuro. 0:06:50.967 --> 0:06:53.007 Yeah, well I think so, because I don't know what 0:06:53.047 --> 0:06:56.767 it's like if you're not. Like, no one enjoys being bored, right, No. 0:06:57.327 --> 0:07:01.967 But for me, the fear of boredom is so intense. 0:07:02.687 --> 0:07:06.087 It's like someone might be scared of spiders. I'm scared 0:07:06.127 --> 0:07:07.927 of boredom. It dictates my life. 0:07:07.967 --> 0:07:09.207 Where was the last time you were born? 0:07:09.607 --> 0:07:12.207 Well, I'm bored all the time. That's the thing. I'm 0:07:12.247 --> 0:07:16.127 bored so easily all the time that it's almost like 0:07:16.167 --> 0:07:19.927 this constant ping ponging back and forth between and bored. 0:07:19.967 --> 0:07:21.247 I need to find something to do on board, and 0:07:21.247 --> 0:07:22.607 I need to find something to do on board. I 0:07:22.607 --> 0:07:24.847 need to so it's like a restlessness. 0:07:25.167 --> 0:07:27.727 It's interesting that you bring up dopamine because it is 0:07:27.807 --> 0:07:30.727 a symptom of clinical depression is boredom. So I was 0:07:30.767 --> 0:07:33.647 thinking about the last time I was bored, and parenting 0:07:33.647 --> 0:07:36.367 a young child has moments of boredom, for sure, But 0:07:36.927 --> 0:07:39.887 when I have been going through periods of depression, the 0:07:40.007 --> 0:07:43.967 scariest thing for me is the infiniteness of the boredom. 0:07:44.047 --> 0:07:46.127 It's like, no matter what I do, I can't get 0:07:46.287 --> 0:07:49.327 the dopamine. So I feel bored with myself, I feel. 0:07:49.087 --> 0:07:50.647 Bored with other people on anything. 0:07:50.727 --> 0:07:54.207 Yeah, exactly. It's like everything is sort of in gray scale. 0:07:54.207 --> 0:07:56.407 How about you, Holly, I was thinking when you first 0:07:56.447 --> 0:07:57.847 asked me when was the last time he was bored? 0:07:57.887 --> 0:08:00.327 I was going to say, I'm never bored because the 0:08:00.327 --> 0:08:02.327 phase of life, I mean, there's just always something that 0:08:02.367 --> 0:08:03.687 needs doing, do you know what I mean? 0:08:03.767 --> 0:08:06.567 Like, are any of those things bored well then, but yeah. 0:08:06.407 --> 0:08:09.007 And then I really considered sort of the state of 0:08:09.767 --> 0:08:13.047 because I'm never bored in that way that a kid 0:08:13.127 --> 0:08:16.007 is bored, like say my teenage is board where she's like, oh, 0:08:16.007 --> 0:08:17.967 there's nothing to do, you know what I mean, because 0:08:18.007 --> 0:08:20.567 there's always fucking something to do, right, So not that 0:08:20.687 --> 0:08:24.047 kind of bored. But I think that the constant stimulation 0:08:24.767 --> 0:08:28.607 that I expect from my life now means that things 0:08:28.607 --> 0:08:31.247 that shouldn't be boring are boring. So I was thinking 0:08:31.287 --> 0:08:35.207 about how, because I'm always in putting podcasts and whatever 0:08:35.247 --> 0:08:38.367 into my ears, that if the conversation that I'm having 0:08:38.407 --> 0:08:40.647 with a stranger or somebody I don't know very well 0:08:40.727 --> 0:08:43.887 doesn't live up to that level of like ping pong, 0:08:44.127 --> 0:08:48.727 new information, funny, funny, whatever, then I'm quite easily bored 0:08:48.767 --> 0:08:51.847 by it. And I might commit the cardinal sin of 0:08:51.927 --> 0:08:54.367 desperately wanting to pull out my phone, because that is 0:08:54.487 --> 0:08:57.167 our learned response to boredom now, right, even though it's 0:08:57.207 --> 0:08:59.487 not the solution, as you were just saying, You're like, 0:09:00.087 --> 0:09:02.447 this conversation is making me so bored I want to 0:09:02.447 --> 0:09:05.487 pull out my phone. Is a terrible feeling to have, Like, 0:09:05.527 --> 0:09:07.407 I don't mean terrible for me, I mean a terrible 0:09:08.127 --> 0:09:11.847 impulse because so that's not how humans work, it's not 0:09:11.887 --> 0:09:16.007 how they talk. Their interaction isn't designed to be constantly 0:09:16.047 --> 0:09:18.127 fascinating and giving you. But nothing can. 0:09:17.967 --> 0:09:20.367 Compete with a phone. Can anything be more interesting? 0:09:21.087 --> 0:09:23.447 My phone is boring as hell. I like some of 0:09:23.487 --> 0:09:26.247 the things on it, but I find the scroll makes 0:09:26.287 --> 0:09:26.887 me sad. 0:09:27.007 --> 0:09:30.327 You're right, I should have said the potential of a 0:09:30.447 --> 0:09:33.527 phone that, as you say, Jesse, he's never realized really 0:09:33.567 --> 0:09:36.687 because you don't. You never put your phone and go wow, 0:09:36.927 --> 0:09:40.287 I feel really full in the same way that you'd 0:09:40.327 --> 0:09:43.727 finish a TV show or a book or a conversation 0:09:43.887 --> 0:09:47.127 or a podcast and you go oh wow. You never 0:09:47.167 --> 0:09:50.087 feel that after you just mindlessly pick up your phone. 0:09:50.127 --> 0:09:53.567 Because to attainment is not the same as fulfillment. It's 0:09:53.607 --> 0:09:57.727 not the same as being satisfied. And in terms of evolution, 0:09:57.927 --> 0:10:01.567 that boredom impulse, which is evolution, would have us to 0:10:01.607 --> 0:10:05.327 be the most bored iterations of humankind, right because we've 0:10:05.367 --> 0:10:08.767 probably pro created because the people who are bored have 0:10:08.847 --> 0:10:13.167 an stinc to go and innovate and challenge and create newness. 0:10:13.367 --> 0:10:15.927 Like if we didn't have boredom and there were you know, 0:10:16.127 --> 0:10:18.327 hunters and gatherers, or like, why would you go anywhere? 0:10:18.367 --> 0:10:20.887 You would just be so stimulated by staring at your 0:10:20.927 --> 0:10:23.207 own feet that you would never go anywhere. So it's 0:10:23.207 --> 0:10:26.447 actually a really good thing to be bored. But what 0:10:26.487 --> 0:10:31.487 that impulse is telling us to do is to find newness, 0:10:31.967 --> 0:10:36.367 have a conversation, be invent be inventive, be creative, use 0:10:36.407 --> 0:10:40.607 your imagination. But when we don't do that, we just 0:10:40.767 --> 0:10:43.207 end up more and more bored. So I found a 0:10:43.247 --> 0:10:45.007 definition because I was like, I need to kind of 0:10:45.047 --> 0:10:48.487 remind myself what boredom even is, and it's the state 0:10:48.527 --> 0:10:52.047 of feeling disinterested in one's surroundings, having nothing to do, 0:10:52.247 --> 0:10:54.847 or feeling that life is dull, and all of those 0:10:54.887 --> 0:10:57.847 things are reinforced often by just being on my phone. 0:10:57.887 --> 0:11:00.407 I think I often feel bored on my phone hundred percent. 0:11:01.167 --> 0:11:03.327 But I also think depending on what kind of person 0:11:03.367 --> 0:11:06.007 you are, because you know how people often say that 0:11:06.047 --> 0:11:08.767 they would be really afraid of retirement because they would 0:11:08.807 --> 0:11:11.927 be like, oh, be so bored, right, I never think 0:11:11.967 --> 0:11:13.967 I would be bored because I think that's what I'm 0:11:13.967 --> 0:11:16.287 going to read all the books that I have always 0:11:16.327 --> 0:11:18.727 wanted to read but never have time to or like, 0:11:18.767 --> 0:11:20.207 because I live in my head a lot and I 0:11:20.367 --> 0:11:22.807 like reading and writing and that kind of stuff. Like, 0:11:22.847 --> 0:11:26.167 I don't think I would be bored. But if I 0:11:26.247 --> 0:11:29.207 was the kind of person who that isn't stimulating, for 0:11:29.847 --> 0:11:33.007 they fill their days with jobs, right, like endless jobs, 0:11:33.007 --> 0:11:36.007 the cliche of the man who's pottering around the shed 0:11:36.047 --> 0:11:38.647 all the time and fixing things in the house and whatever. 0:11:38.687 --> 0:11:41.047 But like, I couldn't imagine ever being bored if I 0:11:41.047 --> 0:11:41.767 had a good book. 0:11:42.047 --> 0:11:44.567 So I think what you're getting to, Holly is meaning. 0:11:44.847 --> 0:11:47.167 If you have meaning, then there is no boredom. Yeah, 0:11:47.207 --> 0:11:50.607 there was a study done about though, if you have 0:11:50.847 --> 0:11:55.007 meaning to what you're doing. So if you retire, yeah, 0:11:55.047 --> 0:11:57.167 but you still feel like you have meaning and purpose, 0:11:57.927 --> 0:12:00.087 then you can't really see it because you've. 0:11:59.927 --> 0:12:03.047 Got stuff to do. Isn't that what meaning and purpose is? 0:12:03.127 --> 0:12:06.087 Or is that my problem that I'm so focused on productivity. 0:12:06.527 --> 0:12:09.127 Well, to some people, reading a book would be really boring, 0:12:09.487 --> 0:12:11.927 but to Holly, it's a meaningful activity. So I think 0:12:11.967 --> 0:12:16.207 that's the thing. It's like, if it's meaning making, then. 0:12:16.047 --> 0:12:18.087 But what about Like one of the people in the 0:12:18.087 --> 0:12:19.967 office said he and his partner are going to learn 0:12:20.007 --> 0:12:22.767 to crochet. That's not a lot of meaning in crocheting, 0:12:23.287 --> 0:12:26.527 But isn't that creating activity. 0:12:26.687 --> 0:12:31.567 It's creative, it's creating. So I suppose it's like there 0:12:31.567 --> 0:12:33.367 are some podcasts that if anyone else put it on, 0:12:33.367 --> 0:12:36.367 they'd find it so boring. But it's just my relationship 0:12:36.407 --> 0:12:38.887 to it is such that I'm getting a lot out 0:12:38.887 --> 0:12:41.887 of it. But the prospect of boredom can make my 0:12:41.927 --> 0:12:44.567 skin crawl, It can make me feel nauseous, feel and 0:12:44.567 --> 0:12:47.087 in fact, I read a definition that said it's akin 0:12:47.207 --> 0:12:50.047 to disgust. There is a sense of disgust about boredom. 0:12:50.407 --> 0:12:52.887 And I have this memory of being a kid in 0:12:52.967 --> 0:12:55.607 sick bay and waiting for my mum to pick me up, 0:12:55.647 --> 0:12:57.487 and it felt like hours would past, and I didn't 0:12:57.487 --> 0:12:58.807 even have a clock, I didn't have anything, and I 0:12:58.807 --> 0:13:00.647 would count the bricks on the wall. To me, that 0:13:00.727 --> 0:13:02.647 is the epitome of boredom. And it was like I 0:13:02.687 --> 0:13:04.367 was in a jail cell and I was so so bored. 0:13:05.167 --> 0:13:09.007 And I read this like philosophical idea that the reason 0:13:09.047 --> 0:13:12.407 were so afraid of boredom is that it forces us 0:13:12.807 --> 0:13:17.487 to confront the existential void, the nothingness of our own existence, 0:13:18.127 --> 0:13:21.487 like the fact that all we're ever doing is trying 0:13:21.487 --> 0:13:24.087 to feel it because we don't want to think about dying. Essentially, 0:13:24.247 --> 0:13:28.407 we don't want to think about how terrifying the universe 0:13:28.447 --> 0:13:29.367 and all the parts of it are. 0:13:29.487 --> 0:13:30.367 Stop talking about. 0:13:31.607 --> 0:13:34.527 So it's like busyness, busyness, business. And if we get bored, 0:13:34.527 --> 0:13:36.047 I think we're all a little bit scared of where 0:13:36.087 --> 0:13:38.447 the fuck our brains will go, because it's like there 0:13:38.607 --> 0:13:41.767 is a big thing waiting for us, like the certainty. 0:13:42.047 --> 0:13:44.767 Sometimes so if I've got like a lot on my mind, 0:13:45.727 --> 0:13:48.647 there are very few occasions but I'll have to restrict 0:13:48.647 --> 0:13:51.607 the amount of stimulation coming in. So I might go 0:13:51.687 --> 0:13:56.127 from say a podcast or visual stimulation or you know, 0:13:56.167 --> 0:13:59.207 to just music. And sometimes I'll have to have silence, 0:13:59.287 --> 0:14:01.847 Like if I'm driving, I know that there's some shit 0:14:01.967 --> 0:14:04.927 going down. If I have to drive in silence, yes, 0:14:05.007 --> 0:14:07.447 And that's not even a conscious decision. But sometimes it's 0:14:07.487 --> 0:14:11.167 just like there's no more I just need. There's simulation 0:14:11.327 --> 0:14:14.247 for everything, and it's very rare that I get over stimulated, 0:14:14.847 --> 0:14:19.127 but sometimes when I do, I just need that space 0:14:19.207 --> 0:14:22.047 to think. And they say necessity is the mother of invention, 0:14:22.727 --> 0:14:24.767 but I also think boredom is the mother of invention, 0:14:24.847 --> 0:14:26.967 and boredom is the mother of creativity. 0:14:26.447 --> 0:14:29.607 One hundred percent. This is why parents forever have said 0:14:29.607 --> 0:14:31.767 to their kids when their kids go, I'm bored. Only 0:14:31.807 --> 0:14:35.367 boring people are bought. That is the cliche of all time, right, 0:14:35.607 --> 0:14:37.407 And I said to my children too, what do you 0:14:37.407 --> 0:14:39.767 mean you're brought? You've got a house full of stuff, 0:14:39.967 --> 0:14:41.807 you've got a garden, you've got this, you've got that. 0:14:41.847 --> 0:14:44.007 Go and do something. Go find yourself something to do. 0:14:44.127 --> 0:14:46.727 I feel like yeah, and I you know everyone's parents 0:14:46.767 --> 0:14:48.367 who used to say, if you're bored off, Joe, want 0:14:48.407 --> 0:14:49.407 me to find you a job to do. 0:14:49.487 --> 0:14:49.607 Yes. 0:14:49.927 --> 0:14:52.727 But I feel as a mother, Oh, I felt when 0:14:52.727 --> 0:14:54.927 my kids were small that my biggest failure was if 0:14:54.967 --> 0:14:58.527 my kids were bored. Somehow I'd internalize this weird message 0:14:58.687 --> 0:15:01.887 that my job is to make sure my children never 0:15:01.967 --> 0:15:04.847 experience a moment of boredom, and if they do, I 0:15:04.927 --> 0:15:07.247 have failed. Along with if they feel sad, if they 0:15:07.247 --> 0:15:11.367 feel disappointed, if they feel anything negat there's this particularly border. 0:15:11.287 --> 0:15:14.687 God, there's this focus on stimulation and education. I listened 0:15:14.727 --> 0:15:16.767 to a great podcast a few months ago, Holly You 0:15:16.807 --> 0:15:19.767 did two with It was Judia Tolentino, Ezra Client and 0:15:19.807 --> 0:15:24.247 I'm Geo Tarantino talking about parenting and how we've got 0:15:24.247 --> 0:15:28.007 this idea that everything we have our children do has 0:15:28.047 --> 0:15:29.407 to be in some way educational. 0:15:29.527 --> 0:15:32.567 Nothing's educational at this age anyway, Like I've never most 0:15:32.647 --> 0:15:36.927 of the cocomela and audience is not learning shit, you know. 0:15:36.967 --> 0:15:40.527 I was wading through a lot of literature and research 0:15:40.567 --> 0:15:43.847 about this. Tiny little babies can process TV more than 0:15:43.847 --> 0:15:46.567 we think they can, but they can't really learned anything anyway. 0:15:46.607 --> 0:15:49.847 And I think that absolutely the It feels kind of 0:15:49.887 --> 0:15:53.287 like overtly like a veneer, that everyone is just pretending 0:15:53.327 --> 0:15:55.127 that we can talk about what is going to be 0:15:55.167 --> 0:15:56.967 good for them and what is healthy and what. 0:15:56.967 --> 0:15:59.687 Is not, and in fact it's feeding into the idea 0:15:59.687 --> 0:16:01.647 that we have to be productive all the time. Like 0:16:01.647 --> 0:16:04.647 some of what kids do doesn't have to have any purpose, 0:16:05.127 --> 0:16:09.167 they just do it. But I have noticed Lerna's gotten 0:16:09.167 --> 0:16:11.327 to an age where I see signs of boredom and 0:16:11.407 --> 0:16:14.127 I see it as I'm being a bad mother that 0:16:14.207 --> 0:16:16.047 day because I haven't got her out to the park enough, 0:16:16.167 --> 0:16:19.887 or I haven't There's this ridiculous focus on stimulation where 0:16:19.927 --> 0:16:23.647 like arousal in terms of just like stimulation in the 0:16:23.647 --> 0:16:27.007 world probably just needs to be turned down like ten notches. 0:16:27.727 --> 0:16:30.407 Yeah, it's interesting because obviously you can't live in other 0:16:30.407 --> 0:16:34.207 people's heads. But when I was young and I was bored, 0:16:34.247 --> 0:16:36.447 and even now, if I'm doing a really boring job, 0:16:36.487 --> 0:16:38.887 if I'm washing dishes, if I'm cleaning the bathroom, if 0:16:38.887 --> 0:16:41.687 I'm doing I hate all that shit. Then I tell 0:16:41.727 --> 0:16:44.087 myself stories in my head. Like I've always lived in 0:16:44.087 --> 0:16:45.687 my head. And when I was a kid, I'd invent 0:16:45.767 --> 0:16:47.447 whole worlds and there was a character that was me. 0:16:47.527 --> 0:16:49.567 But I was married to Simon Labond from Duran Duran, 0:16:49.647 --> 0:16:51.647 and like we lived in a house down the road 0:16:51.687 --> 0:16:54.167 and my friend was going out with Nick Rhodes, and 0:16:54.407 --> 0:16:57.007 like you, I should write fiction, well exactly, And I 0:16:57.127 --> 0:16:59.887 always lived in stories often. I still do that now. 0:17:00.007 --> 0:17:02.287 So if I'm bored, I just tell myself stories. I 0:17:02.287 --> 0:17:06.127 don't really make outfits get bored, and so I expect 0:17:06.167 --> 0:17:08.607 that my kids are like you know what I mean. Yeah, 0:17:08.647 --> 0:17:11.407 but what's intest thing about my teenager who if she's 0:17:11.407 --> 0:17:13.607 got a Saturday afternoon where she doesn't have plans and 0:17:13.647 --> 0:17:17.247 she's bored, bored, bored b then she will scroll her TikTok, 0:17:17.287 --> 0:17:20.527 but she will get bored of that without prompting from me, 0:17:20.607 --> 0:17:21.927 She'll go, I feel disgusting. 0:17:21.967 --> 0:17:24.927 Now, yeah, there's something about not only does it not 0:17:25.047 --> 0:17:28.047 fill you up, but there's a different state that I 0:17:28.047 --> 0:17:29.487 feel like we don't have a name. 0:17:29.407 --> 0:17:30.367 For just despair. 0:17:31.527 --> 0:17:33.207 It's not even that extreme. 0:17:33.607 --> 0:17:34.807 It's just kind of it. 0:17:34.807 --> 0:17:38.887 It's like, I feel disgusting, I feel yucky. It's really interesting. 0:17:38.927 --> 0:17:41.407 I can tell. I'm trying to teach myself to become 0:17:41.487 --> 0:17:43.807 more aware of when I cross that line. So I'll 0:17:43.807 --> 0:17:46.167 look at my phone and I'll like, I'll check my emails, 0:17:46.207 --> 0:17:48.687 I'll check my bar I'll d d d DA, I'll 0:17:48.687 --> 0:17:52.367 cross over from the interest of it to feeling disgusting. 0:17:52.487 --> 0:17:55.287 And I'm usually then on my second round of checking 0:17:55.287 --> 0:17:59.047 my Instagram check, checking another website, and then going to 0:17:59.087 --> 0:18:01.247 my second tier of websites that I check, and then 0:18:01.287 --> 0:18:04.527 my third tier, and then I'm just like ooh, And 0:18:04.567 --> 0:18:07.487 I'm trying to be more alert to that feeling and 0:18:07.847 --> 0:18:11.327 snap out of it. But like, phones have addicted us, 0:18:11.367 --> 0:18:14.727 and I think that our tolerance for boredom has become 0:18:15.247 --> 0:18:17.967 lower and lower and lower and lower. And lower, because 0:18:18.087 --> 0:18:20.767 boredom used to be built into every aspect of our life, 0:18:21.247 --> 0:18:22.047 every aspect. 0:18:22.127 --> 0:18:24.167 You know what I've found myself doing and now it isn't, 0:18:24.167 --> 0:18:27.247 which is a feeling of absolute disgust. Is I have 0:18:27.367 --> 0:18:30.327 found myself watching TikTok while brushing my teeth and I've 0:18:30.327 --> 0:18:32.207 stopped and I've gone, yeah, no, we're not doing this. 0:18:32.407 --> 0:18:34.407 We're actually not doing this. This is being good for us. 0:18:34.887 --> 0:18:37.927 Another thing I read was that people who had a 0:18:38.047 --> 0:18:43.047 higher religiosity, so who were religious, report less boredom than 0:18:43.087 --> 0:18:45.447 people who were not. And I thought about that and 0:18:45.487 --> 0:18:48.327 I went, I wonder if religion, like as someone who 0:18:48.407 --> 0:18:51.247 grew up Catholic and went to church, if we practice 0:18:51.287 --> 0:18:55.327 boredom so something in church? Some of my memories, isn't 0:18:55.367 --> 0:18:58.327 it of being bored as a kid, are what seems 0:18:58.327 --> 0:19:01.167 like a never ending mass with a sermon I don't understand, 0:19:01.607 --> 0:19:04.127 with songs that I'm not following and just standing there 0:19:04.167 --> 0:19:08.207 in stillness, like religion is about stillness often and you 0:19:08.247 --> 0:19:11.247 would have to find way, whether it's making up stories, 0:19:11.847 --> 0:19:14.607 thinking about what you did last night, thinking about lunch. 0:19:15.207 --> 0:19:17.327 And recently I had to go to something that was 0:19:17.327 --> 0:19:19.927 a mass. I felt itchy, I kind of went, because 0:19:19.927 --> 0:19:21.727 I know it's rude you don't touch your phone, but 0:19:22.487 --> 0:19:25.607 all religious practices do have that stillness. And I wonder 0:19:25.647 --> 0:19:28.407 if the more you practice it, the easier it becomes. 0:19:28.407 --> 0:19:29.967 And then if you do find yourself in a moment 0:19:30.047 --> 0:19:32.087 of boredom, you know what to do. Like the more 0:19:32.087 --> 0:19:33.207 you resist it, the harder it gets. 0:19:33.247 --> 0:19:36.207 Funny you say that, because if I've had my medication, 0:19:36.807 --> 0:19:40.887 I can handle boredom, and I almost look forward to 0:19:40.927 --> 0:19:44.527 those little pockets of just being able to think and 0:19:44.767 --> 0:19:48.847 just let my mind wander. If I haven't, it feels 0:19:48.967 --> 0:19:53.047 really disgusting. It feels like distressing is too strong a word, 0:19:53.087 --> 0:19:55.087 but it feels like really uncomfortable. 0:19:55.447 --> 0:19:56.807 Yeah, and I've. 0:19:56.647 --> 0:20:00.967 Been going to synagogue a little bit lately, and I've 0:20:01.007 --> 0:20:03.887 really been enjoying that because you're not meant to look 0:20:03.887 --> 0:20:05.207