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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: From MoMA Mia. Welcome to the Spill, your daily pop

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Speaker 2: culture fixed. I'm Laura Brodnick.

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Speaker 3: And I've teena provis happy to be back here unpacking

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Speaker 3: things today.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a good thing you're here today because we

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Speaker 2: are talking about a new documentary about a reality show

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Speaker 2: that swept the world. And you've been on two reality shows, right,

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Speaker 2: I'm just giving the people, Well I haven't, so I'm

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Speaker 2: just giving the people your credential so they know to

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Speaker 2: really listen to what you say. Yes. So this Monday

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Speaker 2: Night Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model the documentary

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Speaker 2: premiered and it's kind of a tell all look inside

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Speaker 2: the America's Next Top Model franchise, from the inception to

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Speaker 2: how it all ended. And for the first time ever,

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Speaker 2: we had interviews with not only models and women who

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Speaker 2: are on the show, but the full panel of the

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Speaker 2: guest judges and Tyra Banks herself, who has not really

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Speaker 2: spoken in depth about the show at all for many,

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Speaker 2: many many years, especially while she's been in Australia.

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Speaker 1: It's been here turning ice cream, building her.

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Speaker 2: Ice cream empire. So you and I were coming at

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Speaker 2: this from two different sides because I didn't watch America's

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Speaker 2: Next Top Model when it started in two thousand and three,

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Speaker 2: because if you get to watch it on foxtail in

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Speaker 2: the show, and I did not have Foxtel at that stage.

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Speaker 2: It was free to air only, but it got so

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Speaker 2: popular that they started showing all of the seasons on

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Speaker 2: free to air like in a syndication. So I watched it.

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Speaker 2: Then did you watch it at all?

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Speaker 1: So I didn't grow up watching it?

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Speaker 3: Obviously? I saw bits and pieces. Again, there was the

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Speaker 3: no Foxtel dilemma.

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Speaker 2: That really hit us all hard.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like it wasn't played like in my household.

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Speaker 3: My parents really hated reality TV, so it wasn't something

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Speaker 3: Oh that's so fair.

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Speaker 2: Because I'm older than you. My mum did not know

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Speaker 2: I was watching that, although she probably thought it was fine,

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Speaker 2: like that's what TV was at the time. No one

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Speaker 2: thought this show at the time was It was only

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Speaker 2: seen as entertaining and dramatic and empowering. Like I can't

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Speaker 2: imagine any teenager's parents telling them to turn it off

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Speaker 2: the way that they might now because of what we.

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Speaker 1: Felt about it end totally.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to go through all the different reveals

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Speaker 2: from the show, so it starts off with how it

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Speaker 2: came to life. So Tyra Banks was a really well

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Speaker 2: known model. She was also quite a groundbreaking model in

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Speaker 2: terms of I think she was like the first woman

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Speaker 2: of color to be a Sports Illustrated cover girl. She

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Speaker 2: was one of the few models of color to actually

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Speaker 2: become a supermodel, and she had this huge fan base

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Speaker 2: because of all these barriers she was breaking down. But

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Speaker 2: one thing we know about Tyra Banks is that she's

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Speaker 2: quite a smart I mean, say what you want about her,

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Speaker 2: and I think in this episode we will say a

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Speaker 2: lot and not all of it is going to be favorable.

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Speaker 2: But she's a good business woman. She's doing yeah exactly.

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Speaker 2: She's an empire builder. She's a businesswoman. And so she

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Speaker 2: was the one who had the idea to do this

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Speaker 2: reality TV show, kind of inspired by like American Idol

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Speaker 2: and all those shows that were like a reality competition

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Speaker 2: but also gave you a look inside an industry that

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Speaker 2: was very closed off to most of the world, that

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Speaker 2: was very glamorous, and you saw people go through that

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Speaker 2: and have a champion of the end. So she was

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Speaker 2: inspired by that to start America's Next Top Model and

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Speaker 2: interesting to watch as she talked about those initial months

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Speaker 2: of pitching at how every single night.

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Speaker 1: It was her brainchild.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In that capacity, I just thought she was like the

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Speaker 1: face that stepped in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, being like the producer, the host, the one

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Speaker 2: who came up the idea, and her like being in

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Speaker 2: the pitch meetings and having the decks and actually talking

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Speaker 2: people into it. Which is kind of interesting because on

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Speaker 2: one hand, having at the top of the documentary made

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Speaker 2: her look very smart and empowered and made her look

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Speaker 2: like the trail blazer she is, But as they went

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Speaker 2: through all the terrible things that had happened behind the scenes,

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Speaker 2: it made it less easy to kind of give her

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Speaker 2: a pass when she kept saying, well, I don't know

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Speaker 2: about that's production. That's something to do with me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There was zero accountability throughout the whole documentary. I had

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Speaker 3: thought that perhaps this was because Tya was involved. I

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Speaker 3: thought this was going to be like her redemption arc

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Speaker 3: after this has been like so much heat over the

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Speaker 3: past years as things get dredged back up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, well, she didn't produce it or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: So she's there as a talking head just like the

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Speaker 2: rest them are, and that was the kind of interesting thing.

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Speaker 2: When I heard this documentary was being made. I didn't

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Speaker 2: think much of it at first, when it was just

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Speaker 2: a whisper that they had started shooting it only because

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Speaker 2: the women involved in it have done interviews before, so

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Speaker 2: of the panel judges. But I didn't realize it was

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Speaker 2: going to be such a tell all. And I think

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Speaker 2: Tyra Banks really tipped it because she doesn't talk about

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Speaker 2: Top Model at all since it all blew up like

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Speaker 2: when it was still in its heyday and people love

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Speaker 2: the show. She would obviously do so much press when

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Speaker 2: she did media appearances, she would be like teach people

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Speaker 2: how to walk and how to smise. But especially since

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Speaker 2: she's come to Australia, she's had a ban on anyone

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Speaker 2: talking to her about Top Model because she's done the

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Speaker 2: rounds of going to all the different media outlets and

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Speaker 2: doing things with them to promote her ice cream, and like,

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Speaker 2: I think this has been the same for every media outlet.

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Speaker 2: When she came to Mama Mia, like we had some

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Speaker 2: she was lovely. I wasn't here that day, but I

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Speaker 2: hear she was lovely, but she had some strict guidelines

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Speaker 2: which were no questions about Top Model like none of

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Speaker 2: the video content to be about top model. From what

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Speaker 2: you can see of her, I didn't think it's an

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Speaker 2: industry secret. For what you can see from all the

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Speaker 2: coverage she's done, it's been very much the same. So

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Speaker 2: she has wanted to separate herself for a long time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I had that separation as well, Like

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Speaker 3: since she's been in Australia doing a lot of press.

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Speaker 3: I think I saw it the Freaky Frider premiere. I

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Speaker 3: just her being there and seeing them together and they

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Speaker 3: seem to have a really sweet relationship with each other.

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Speaker 3: It was really easy to gloss over the fire that

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Speaker 3: all of these quite traumatic things have happened throughout this.

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Speaker 2: And look as much as I'm sort of saying like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I know that she was not wanting to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: and I know that she did these bad things. If

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Speaker 2: I had seen Tyra Banks, because I haven't been feeling, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would have been like, oh my god, it's Tyra Banks,

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Speaker 2: Like she has this power. But yeah, I almost feel

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Speaker 2: like this documentary did not turn out the way that

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Speaker 2: she thought it would, or did not give her the

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Speaker 2: redemption arc she thought she was going to get. But

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Speaker 2: let's get into some of the contestant stories. Was there

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Speaker 2: one contestant story in particular that stood out to you.

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Speaker 3: I think the one that stood out to me the

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Speaker 3: most shandy shandy story her episode that aired the Girl

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Speaker 3: that Cheated. I think that was really shocking to watch,

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Speaker 3: especially as someone who hadn't followed this series that closely

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Speaker 3: at the time, and just seeing how reality TV as

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Speaker 3: a format has changed so much.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, the girls were out in Rome, Italy.

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Speaker 3: They met these men who came back to their house

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Speaker 3: after they were drinking. They're on a hot tub and

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Speaker 3: you can just see that the conditions are not something

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Speaker 3: you would have aired on TV in this modern day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy because I do remember watching I think

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Speaker 2: I did watch on a remrun and I didn't watch

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Speaker 2: a live but I do remember watching that episode, and yes,

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Speaker 2: it's all the models, and that was when the show

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Speaker 2: was really blowing up, so they could take them overseas

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Speaker 2: in Italy, and it was the men who were hired

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Speaker 2: by production to drive them around on those vespers to

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Speaker 2: their go sis. There was a big thing on the

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Speaker 2: show where sometimes they would cut girls because they couldn't

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Speaker 2: figure out the traffic to get to auditions and they'd

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Speaker 2: be like, if you're a real model, which I know

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Speaker 2: this is true in the modeling industry when you're starting out,

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Speaker 2: they'll say like, here's ten different go sies, which is

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Speaker 2: when you do like a go sy and look and

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Speaker 2: like it's like an audition, but for modeling, and they'll

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Speaker 2: say like, if you don't make them, then you just

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Speaker 2: won't get the job and you'll be fired essentially. So

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Speaker 2: that was a big thing on Top Model, and they

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Speaker 2: would take them to different cities, like they had them

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Speaker 2: in high Land once and like Tuck Tucks and like

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Speaker 2: New York. They had to do the subway and it

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Speaker 2: was a whole thing. And sometimes you would just get

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Speaker 2: cut from Top Model for not I don't know how

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Speaker 2: to get to your job, not knowing directions, which I

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Speaker 2: would have been I would have been gone us straight away.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, so then they invited those men back to

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Speaker 2: their hotel room. And watching Shanny in that documentary, it's

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Speaker 2: really felt for her.

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Speaker 1: Because that was really disturbing.

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Speaker 2: She said she did the equivalent of two bottles of

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Speaker 2: wine and she blacked out, essentially, And the quote from

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Speaker 2: the documentary is like she knew sex was happening, but

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Speaker 2: she couldn't feel it.

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Speaker 1: It's awful.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's interesting we only hear from her account.

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Speaker 3: They don't really explicitly touch on the fact that you.

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Speaker 1: Know, she was raped. Yeah, she wasn't consenting.

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Speaker 3: And I believe that the camera crew weren't able to

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Speaker 3: follow someone into the bathroom if they were by themselves,

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Speaker 3: But if you had two people go into a bathroom,

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Speaker 3: then the camera crew would be.

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Speaker 1: Able to follow.

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Speaker 3: And because they were told it was a documentary, we're

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Speaker 3: filming a document style.

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Speaker 1: The cameras are always rolling.

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Speaker 3: And it just feels like a real lack of duty

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Speaker 3: of care for these people. I think when you're on

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Speaker 3: a reality show you kind of lose that autonomy because

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Speaker 3: you have so much trust in the producers and what

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Speaker 3: they're doing.

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Speaker 2: We're going to say yeah, because part of me is

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Speaker 2: just like it's so harring to watch because there's so

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Speaker 2: many people in that apartment. There's this woman who's clearly

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Speaker 2: very intoxicated, and there's just this group of men with

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Speaker 2: cameras following her to the shower where they'rekissing and making out,

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Speaker 2: following them into the bedroom and they're under the covers,

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Speaker 2: and you can just imagine there's three people filming and

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Speaker 2: you just like, how could someone not jump in and

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Speaker 2: stop it? And also like I guess the other women too,

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Speaker 2: like maybe you become desensitized because you're so used to

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Speaker 2: the camera being there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very it's harring to watch that, and I

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Speaker 3: can't understand how people can put themselves in that position.

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Speaker 3: I think some of the crew apologize, you know, that

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Speaker 3: they had to that they had to be there to

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Speaker 3: capture those moments. I think because it was, you know,

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Speaker 3: the first foray into reality TV in that way, it

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Speaker 3: was really revolutionary in terms of the format and following

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Speaker 3: them around. I think there's so many learnings from that

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Speaker 3: that we wouldn't see replicated in TV today. But I

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Speaker 3: can only imagine how how hard that would be for

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Speaker 3: her to watch back and have to recount anything.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was quite awful, how like Tyra and

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Speaker 2: the producers were saying after and like the executive producer

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Speaker 2: of the show who was in the documentary was saying like, well,

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Speaker 2: you don't know how much we cut out of that scene,

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Speaker 2: And I was like, that is not the get out

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Speaker 2: of hurry card, do you think it is. It's actually

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Speaker 2: worse because it means that you were watching really intense

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Speaker 2: footage of this woman being sexually assaulted, and you cut

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Speaker 2: it for the edit so that it would be easy

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Speaker 2: for you to play out this cheating storyline. And then,

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Speaker 2: as we saw in the documentary, she also talks about

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Speaker 2: the fact that they kept her in the house, wouldn't

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Speaker 2: give her a phone, only gave her phone she could

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Speaker 2: call her boyfriend and tell him that she had cheated

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Speaker 2: on him, with the condition that it befilmed. And then

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Speaker 2: Tyra comes in and gives this like.

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Speaker 1: That weird chat she had with them.

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Speaker 3: She sits them down and launches into a chat about

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Speaker 3: being unfaithful.

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Speaker 2: And gave them Well, that was her role on the show,

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Speaker 2: is that she oscillated between being this like I am

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Speaker 2: Tyra Banks top model and I have like godlike advice,

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Speaker 2: and then she oscillated between that and I am the

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Speaker 2: big sister, I'm the friend, I'm here. So that was

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Speaker 2: like a setup thing of being like, I'm coming in

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Speaker 2: to be the big sister, but it was also reading

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Speaker 2: between the lines of what happened and like seeing what

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Speaker 2: the girl said in the documentary, it was also them

250
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Speaker 2: looking at the footage, like the dailies from that day

251
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Speaker 2: and being like, well, this is going to be a

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Speaker 2: huge storyline, the fact that Shandy cheated on her boyfriend

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Speaker 2: sexually assaulted. But you know, cheating was the storyline, and

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Speaker 2: so we need to have a big reveal, and so

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Speaker 2: we need to get Tyra in there for this unscripted

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Speaker 2: moment to talk about relationships and get her to say

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Speaker 2: on camera that she cheated.

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Speaker 3: So inappropriate, and especially when Tara wouldn't comment on it,

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Speaker 3: you know, she's like, I have nothing to do with.

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Speaker 1: The plot or the storyline. That's not my job.

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Speaker 2: That was a crazy thing to say. And also looking

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Speaker 2: back at the time though, like it was such a

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Speaker 2: huge storyline from the show and people were talking about it,

264
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Speaker 2: but I can't remember, and obviously, like I was a

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Speaker 2: team then, so maybe I wasn't, And like, we don't

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Speaker 2: have social media the way we do now, so I

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Speaker 2: didn't see There were no big think pieces and opinions

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Speaker 2: that I could see. But what I could see from

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Speaker 2: the world is everyone's like, oh that God cheated, scandalous,

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Speaker 2: Like it was this hot, chatty thing, and like I

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Speaker 2: can't imagine one person in the world being like is

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Speaker 2: she okay? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: No, It's really sad to see and I think when

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Speaker 3: you have alcohol involved and you don't have process in

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Speaker 3: place to make sure that you're looking out for the

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Speaker 3: people who are contestants on the show, like you hand

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Speaker 3: over so much power, you trust producers, so you know,

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Speaker 3: to see someone in that position and then they're gasly

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Speaker 3: into thinking that they've cheated when they've been assaulted, Like

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Speaker 3: it's insane.

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Speaker 2: That is crazy. And also, like as you're saying, now,

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Speaker 2: like we have now shows and we didn't really have,

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Speaker 2: I guess with maybe a few dating shows, but not

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Speaker 2: like we have now where you actually have whole shows

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Speaker 2: that are people put together in houses, in hotel rooms

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Speaker 2: in like bunkers, essentially given alcohol with the idea that

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Speaker 2: they'll hook up at a camera crew. Do you think

288
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Speaker 2: it's changed a lot since Top One All Days?

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Speaker 3: Well, for Love Island, you only get one drink, you

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Speaker 3: get one drink and one drink on one drink.

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Speaker 2: I've actually seen them say that on different shows now

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Speaker 2: because on the Batchel I remember saying that you only

293
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Speaker 2: get one drink an hour, and I was.

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Speaker 1: One drink an hour. Yeah, well yeah, one.

295
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Speaker 2: I would have been great. Yeah. I don't know if

296
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Speaker 2: it's changed up, but I think at one stage that

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Speaker 2: was it.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I think any anywhere where there's dinner parties, like in maths,

300
00:12:27,794 --> 00:12:29,834
Speaker 3: they definitely they're getting plowed still.

301
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, Love Island it's one drink in an evening.

302
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Speaker 2: And then and what were you on Love Island? For

303
00:12:35,794 --> 00:12:37,554
Speaker 2: the people, pat which year were you on.

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Speaker 1: Love I Love Island in twenty twenty one?

305
00:12:39,914 --> 00:12:41,514
Speaker 2: Given? Do you know what you're talking about? Ye?

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Speaker 3: So back in twenty twenty one when I went on,

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Speaker 3: there was also a lot of parameters in place. Four consent,

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Speaker 3: so you would actually have to grab your microphone at

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Speaker 3: the time and say I consent, yeah, before and you

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Speaker 3: would go further with anything, and obviously sharing beds with

311
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Speaker 3: people that you maybe may not have chosen to do

312
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Speaker 3: so with. So that was something really good. And now

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Speaker 3: these days they've progressed. They have a button in the

314
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Speaker 3: wall so you can press that we're not to give consent,

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Speaker 3: but otherwise they will call out like you haven't given consent.

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Speaker 3: They'll call it out on like the read so everyone will.

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Speaker 2: Know that is a pretty big jump, right, yes, yeah.

318
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Speaker 3: So to see that stark difference, I think that's why

319
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Speaker 3: I'm so confronting. For me to see that because I

320
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Speaker 3: can't imagine a world where that would ever happen. And

321
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Speaker 3: I know what it's like to feel like you just

322
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Speaker 3: lose like your autonomy. I remember when I left Love Island.

323
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Speaker 3: I was in the airport and I wandered around for

324
00:13:27,194 --> 00:13:29,914
Speaker 3: ages and I realized, wait, I can just leave. Yeah,

325
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Speaker 3: you're waiting for people to tell you, kind of like

326
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Speaker 3: h's next, what's happening? So when you've got alcohol involved

327
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Speaker 3: and you just think people have your best interests at heart, like,

328
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Speaker 3: that's where it gets stagerous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess that you're so in that bubble

330
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Speaker 2: of you see people come out of reality TV and

331
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Speaker 2: I'm interviewed so many and they come out of that

332
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Speaker 2: bubble and it's like it's all encompassing. What the producers

333
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Speaker 2: say is the only thing that matters, Like you forget

334
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Speaker 2: the outside world exists. And I thought especially that was

335
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Speaker 2: interesting in the documentary how they talk about when women

336
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Speaker 2: left Top Model, they weren't taken home like they were

337
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Speaker 2: film packing their bags, but then they were taken to

338
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Speaker 2: a hotel where they were held until the show was over,

339
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Speaker 2: and they still were like under the guide of like producers.

340
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Speaker 2: So and also I've seen a few people since the

341
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Speaker 2: documentary came out and say, why didn't the other woman

342
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Speaker 2: in the house was Shandy help her? And I kind

343
00:14:13,394 --> 00:14:16,874
Speaker 2: of understand why they didn't, though, because you are so like, no, no,

344
00:14:16,954 --> 00:14:19,194
Speaker 2: this is fine, Like productions in charge, the camera crew

345
00:14:19,234 --> 00:14:21,554
Speaker 2: did this. Tire is coming in. That's huge, like we

346
00:14:21,674 --> 00:14:24,394
Speaker 2: have to do what she says. Percent I don't agree

347
00:14:24,394 --> 00:14:26,234
Speaker 2: with it, obviously, but one hundred percent agree why no

348
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Speaker 2: one said anything.

349
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Speaker 3: It's a really vulnerable group of people, and I think

350
00:14:29,514 --> 00:14:31,634
Speaker 3: coming in they all have so much riding on it,

351
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Speaker 3: like this is my moment.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of people.

353
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Speaker 3: Coming from backgrounds where they don't have these kind of opportunities,

354
00:14:37,194 --> 00:14:38,834
Speaker 3: so no one wants to put themselves at risk.

355
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Speaker 1: But again, they're all drinking.

356
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Speaker 3: They were all probably not that far from having their

357
00:14:44,234 --> 00:14:45,874
Speaker 3: boundaries cross to exactly.

358
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Speaker 2: And what we've kind of seen with all the conversation

359
00:14:48,314 --> 00:14:50,874
Speaker 2: that's come out since the documentary is that Shandy storyline

360
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Speaker 2: because it happened, and like it went on for so

361
00:14:52,874 --> 00:14:54,514
Speaker 2: many years after that is and they got a real

362
00:14:54,594 --> 00:14:59,514
Speaker 2: taste for these big dramatic moments and making people cry

363
00:14:59,514 --> 00:15:02,394
Speaker 2: and making a spectacle or making them have like something

364
00:15:02,474 --> 00:15:05,154
Speaker 2: terrible happen in their real lives, and then that's how

365
00:15:05,194 --> 00:15:08,754
Speaker 2: they had to kind of build the show. One of

366
00:15:08,794 --> 00:15:11,314
Speaker 2: the other storylines that really stuck out to me was Danny,

367
00:15:11,354 --> 00:15:13,154
Speaker 2: who was one of the winners of one of the

368
00:15:13,274 --> 00:15:15,714
Speaker 2: cycles I think Midway Through, because that is the season

369
00:15:15,794 --> 00:15:18,194
Speaker 2: that that aired on whatever it was in austraight back

370
00:15:18,194 --> 00:15:20,314
Speaker 2: in the day, but aired from start to finish, like

371
00:15:20,354 --> 00:15:22,274
Speaker 2: every Thursday night at seven o'clock or something like that.

372
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Speaker 2: So that's the one I watched from start to finish,

373
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Speaker 2: and she's the one who had the gap in her teeth.

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Speaker 1: Close the dental procedures.

375
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Speaker 3: I had no idea that you could ever be required

376
00:15:30,354 --> 00:15:34,634
Speaker 3: to change a features that drastically, Like that's a big

377
00:15:34,754 --> 00:15:35,754
Speaker 3: change to be making.

378
00:15:36,034 --> 00:15:38,234
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've got to say I remember watching at

379
00:15:38,234 --> 00:15:40,114
Speaker 2: the time being like, girl, close that gap. Do what

380
00:15:40,194 --> 00:15:43,234
Speaker 2: they say, because that was the mentality you had, Like

381
00:15:43,274 --> 00:15:45,194
Speaker 2: it felt like make or break. You did feel like

382
00:15:45,194 --> 00:15:47,234
Speaker 2: whoever won this, I think as you'd seen people from

383
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Speaker 2: shows like American Idol actually go on to become like

384
00:15:49,834 --> 00:15:53,314
Speaker 2: Kelly Clarkson, become superstars, and so it kind of felt

385
00:15:53,314 --> 00:15:55,194
Speaker 2: like with Top Model that it was make or break

386
00:15:55,194 --> 00:15:56,754
Speaker 2: that if you didn't win this show, then you wouldn't

387
00:15:56,754 --> 00:15:59,154
Speaker 2: become a supermodel, even though as we know now most

388
00:15:59,194 --> 00:16:01,314
Speaker 2: of them, the majority of them went on to not

389
00:16:01,434 --> 00:16:01,794
Speaker 2: work at.

390
00:16:01,754 --> 00:16:03,834
Speaker 3: All, and there's no social media, so people didn't have

391
00:16:03,834 --> 00:16:06,394
Speaker 3: an opportunity to like platform themselves and they still had

392
00:16:06,434 --> 00:16:07,954
Speaker 3: to go to media.

393
00:16:07,994 --> 00:16:09,834
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the difference. And I mean that's the one

394
00:16:09,874 --> 00:16:11,994
Speaker 2: good thing that's come from social media around these reality

395
00:16:12,034 --> 00:16:13,954
Speaker 2: shows is yes, it lets people we bullied a bit more,

396
00:16:14,074 --> 00:16:16,354
Speaker 2: but it also has let people in later years go

397
00:16:16,434 --> 00:16:18,394
Speaker 2: on to become famous in a way they wouldn't have

398
00:16:18,474 --> 00:16:21,194
Speaker 2: if they were just subject to what the producers of

399
00:16:21,234 --> 00:16:25,114
Speaker 2: the show said. But yeah, watching those makeover shows evolve

400
00:16:25,194 --> 00:16:27,354
Speaker 2: through the top model seasons is crazy because like the

401
00:16:27,394 --> 00:16:29,474
Speaker 2: first season they were just like, let's do a color

402
00:16:29,514 --> 00:16:31,714
Speaker 2: and cut, and that was like quite shocking, and then

403
00:16:31,754 --> 00:16:34,194
Speaker 2: every season is a bit more until they were ripping

404
00:16:34,274 --> 00:16:36,674
Speaker 2: one woman's teeth from her head over twenty four hours.

405
00:16:36,914 --> 00:16:39,554
Speaker 2: I remember watching that in real time and thinking like

406
00:16:39,634 --> 00:16:41,914
Speaker 2: that made me feel six. Oh yeah, because she had

407
00:16:41,914 --> 00:16:43,474
Speaker 2: the snaggle tooth. They were saying, it's.

408
00:16:43,394 --> 00:16:47,474
Speaker 3: Huge, huge too, Yeah, that's in your mouth.

409
00:16:47,594 --> 00:16:49,354
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because we're looking at it now like

410
00:16:49,354 --> 00:16:52,474
Speaker 2: this horrific moment and how barbaric it was, and like

411
00:16:52,514 --> 00:16:56,354
Speaker 2: it's a real indication of like where reality TV changed

412
00:16:56,514 --> 00:16:59,314
Speaker 2: society for the worst. But watching at the time, it

413
00:16:59,394 --> 00:17:01,514
Speaker 2: did feel like Cinderella wish fulfillment.

414
00:17:01,914 --> 00:17:05,513
Speaker 3: I also think reflective of what's actually happening in the industry, yeah,

415
00:17:05,513 --> 00:17:08,234
Speaker 3: and the malul industry. And I think that's why perhaps

416
00:17:08,513 --> 00:17:11,434
Speaker 3: people within it didn't take a lot of accountability. I'm

417
00:17:11,474 --> 00:17:14,794
Speaker 3: sure Tyra, having come through the ranks of the fashion industry.

418
00:17:14,394 --> 00:17:17,634
Speaker 2: Looks at it like, well, this is what it is, yeah, exactly.

419
00:17:17,874 --> 00:17:19,674
Speaker 2: And that's the thing too, Like you see these contestants

420
00:17:19,714 --> 00:17:21,114
Speaker 2: be like they're like, we're going to fix your teeth,

421
00:17:21,114 --> 00:17:23,994
Speaker 2: and for anyone like dental surgery, it's so expensive America,

422
00:17:24,034 --> 00:17:27,194
Speaker 2: I mean many countries, but American particularly healthcare, dental care

423
00:17:27,514 --> 00:17:29,714
Speaker 2: non existent unless you have a lot of money. And

424
00:17:29,794 --> 00:17:32,553
Speaker 2: so it was this kind of wish fulfillment thing that

425
00:17:32,554 --> 00:17:34,994
Speaker 2: she was going to get these makeovers. And in the

426
00:17:35,074 --> 00:17:39,554
Speaker 2: early two thousands, I cannot stress enough how much makeovers ruled,

427
00:17:39,634 --> 00:17:42,634
Speaker 2: not just reality TV, but movies and TV shows, Like

428
00:17:42,754 --> 00:17:43,234
Speaker 2: it would.

429
00:17:43,034 --> 00:17:44,514
Speaker 1: Be makeover scene in a movie.

430
00:17:45,074 --> 00:17:47,194
Speaker 2: Look, we still kind of do to be honest, but

431
00:17:47,274 --> 00:17:49,354
Speaker 2: it was this whole thing of like every teen movie

432
00:17:49,514 --> 00:17:52,273
Speaker 2: had a makeover scene, like coming down the stairs in

433
00:17:52,274 --> 00:17:54,914
Speaker 2: this beautiful dress, or a moment prom where you saw her.

434
00:17:55,314 --> 00:17:57,914
Speaker 2: I remember even Jennifer Garnah saying they didn't originally have

435
00:17:58,034 --> 00:18:00,513
Speaker 2: a makeover scene, and suddenly thirty and the studio is like,

436
00:18:00,554 --> 00:18:03,234
Speaker 2: you need to put one in. We cannot sell this

437
00:18:03,354 --> 00:18:05,874
Speaker 2: movie unless we have a makeover scene in the trailer.

438
00:18:05,914 --> 00:18:07,274
Speaker 2: It was like one of those things. And America, cause

439
00:18:07,314 --> 00:18:10,834
Speaker 2: Next Top Model became the makeover episodes. I remember used

440
00:18:10,834 --> 00:18:12,994
Speaker 2: to rate a lot higher than all the episodes, Like

441
00:18:13,034 --> 00:18:15,874
Speaker 2: even if people weren't watching that cycle, they would tune

442
00:18:15,954 --> 00:18:19,434
Speaker 2: in just to watch the makeovers and the ads leading

443
00:18:19,434 --> 00:18:22,594
Speaker 2: into the week when there was a makeover episode every

444
00:18:22,674 --> 00:18:25,234
Speaker 2: five minutes. I remember on Free to Air, like you

445
00:18:25,234 --> 00:18:27,794
Speaker 2: want to watch Neighbors, Next Top Model makeover scene, like

446
00:18:27,794 --> 00:18:29,074
Speaker 2: you want to watch Home and Away, you want watch

447
00:18:29,114 --> 00:18:31,154
Speaker 2: Blue Heelers, like whatever it was. It was like, yeah,

448
00:18:32,034 --> 00:18:33,474
Speaker 2: back in the day, it was like this, and so

449
00:18:33,514 --> 00:18:36,194
Speaker 2: then they had to start making them more dramatic to

450
00:18:36,274 --> 00:18:39,074
Speaker 2: keep up with the demand. So I think the dental

451
00:18:39,114 --> 00:18:42,513
Speaker 2: surgery was like just a way to up the anti.

452
00:18:42,434 --> 00:18:44,634
Speaker 3: I think eventually there was another contestant who had a

453
00:18:44,674 --> 00:18:45,914
Speaker 3: gap put in yeah.

454
00:18:45,954 --> 00:18:48,234
Speaker 2: A few seasons later, I remember Tarra coming in and

455
00:18:48,274 --> 00:18:50,434
Speaker 2: saying like, we're gonna make your gap bigger. And even

456
00:18:50,434 --> 00:18:51,793
Speaker 2: that was a moment I was like, well, hold on,

457
00:18:52,274 --> 00:18:55,354
Speaker 2: like gaps were bad, you told us yeah, and now

458
00:18:55,394 --> 00:18:56,994
Speaker 2: you're going out for no gap. But I guess there

459
00:18:56,994 --> 00:18:58,474
Speaker 2: were a few models then who had a gap, So

460
00:18:58,514 --> 00:19:01,274
Speaker 2: it's all very like subjective and often as we saw

461
00:19:01,274 --> 00:19:02,954
Speaker 2: in the show. I thought it was interesting how some

462
00:19:02,994 --> 00:19:05,954
Speaker 2: of the judges still on the show. We have Nigel Baker.

463
00:19:06,514 --> 00:19:09,313
Speaker 2: I remember this because Tyro would introduce them all the

464
00:19:09,314 --> 00:19:12,553
Speaker 2: exact same way every episode, so like Nigel Barker, famed

465
00:19:12,594 --> 00:19:16,954
Speaker 2: fashion photographer j Manuel, like fashion stylist Miss Jay, Queen

466
00:19:16,994 --> 00:19:19,234
Speaker 2: of the Catwalk. I actually loved seeing all of them

467
00:19:19,274 --> 00:19:22,954
Speaker 2: back together, very emotional, and I thought j Manuel in

468
00:19:22,994 --> 00:19:25,634
Speaker 2: particular gave a lot of interesting insight that I've never

469
00:19:25,674 --> 00:19:27,594
Speaker 2: heard him say before as someone who was a host

470
00:19:27,594 --> 00:19:30,513
Speaker 2: on the show for so many cycles around how they

471
00:19:30,514 --> 00:19:33,274
Speaker 2: would start to do things to the women to make

472
00:19:33,314 --> 00:19:35,274
Speaker 2: them a bit upset and to like get a big

473
00:19:35,314 --> 00:19:38,513
Speaker 2: reaction from them at the makeover scenes. And there was

474
00:19:38,754 --> 00:19:41,794
Speaker 2: one storyline, and she wasn't included, maybe because she is

475
00:19:41,874 --> 00:19:44,434
Speaker 2: kind of famous now. Cassandra Jean, who was on the

476
00:19:44,474 --> 00:19:46,394
Speaker 2: show in one of the cycles and she had super

477
00:19:46,394 --> 00:19:48,874
Speaker 2: long hair and her whole storyline was like I love

478
00:19:48,914 --> 00:19:51,474
Speaker 2: my hair, I loft my hair, and then they gave

479
00:19:51,514 --> 00:19:51,954
Speaker 2: her Yeah.

480
00:19:52,114 --> 00:19:52,314
Speaker 3: Yeah.

481
00:19:52,634 --> 00:19:55,234
Speaker 2: You just see Tyra's eyes being like, I can't wait.

482
00:19:55,394 --> 00:19:57,914
Speaker 2: As soon as she stepped into the first audition, she

483
00:19:58,034 --> 00:20:00,114
Speaker 2: was just like, I can't wait to cut that woman's

484
00:20:00,154 --> 00:20:02,994
Speaker 2: hair off. So they cut it off as she sobbed.

485
00:20:03,354 --> 00:20:05,994
Speaker 2: She came in the day. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was,

486
00:20:06,074 --> 00:20:07,994
Speaker 2: oh my god, as like a I realized it's like

487
00:20:07,994 --> 00:20:09,954
Speaker 2: a seventeen year old watching this. That was sobbing.

488
00:20:09,994 --> 00:20:12,874
Speaker 1: I was like, not that bad at that moment before too, it's.

489
00:20:12,754 --> 00:20:15,394
Speaker 2: The worst feeling. And then she came into Tyra, and

490
00:20:15,474 --> 00:20:17,994
Speaker 2: Tyra was like, that's not what I asked for, because

491
00:20:18,034 --> 00:20:21,194
Speaker 2: she wanted like Rosemary's Baby, like the haircut she has

492
00:20:21,194 --> 00:20:23,754
Speaker 2: in that like the tiny, like barely affraction of hair

493
00:20:23,794 --> 00:20:25,553
Speaker 2: on your head. And they were going to send her

494
00:20:25,594 --> 00:20:28,394
Speaker 2: back to a haircut and she was like, no, I'm

495
00:20:28,434 --> 00:20:30,794
Speaker 2: not doing that, and they were like, well, it's either

496
00:20:30,834 --> 00:20:32,954
Speaker 2: cut your hair or go home. So she went home,

497
00:20:33,154 --> 00:20:35,314
Speaker 2: and I remember her leaving Montage. She's packing a bag.

498
00:20:35,354 --> 00:20:37,274
Speaker 2: She like, I'm gonna go home, get some hair extensions,

499
00:20:37,394 --> 00:20:39,874
Speaker 2: figure things out. Anyway, she went to be on an actress.

500
00:20:39,874 --> 00:20:41,794
Speaker 2: She's on mad Man. She's married to Steven Emmel, and

501
00:20:41,834 --> 00:20:43,514
Speaker 2: I do think they have a rocky relationship. That's under

502
00:20:43,514 --> 00:20:45,914
Speaker 2: my business. She's married to Steven Emel, who is the

503
00:20:45,954 --> 00:20:48,394
Speaker 2: Green Arrow and so. But I think after that too,

504
00:20:48,434 --> 00:20:51,073
Speaker 2: like that got so many ratings. Around that time, they

505
00:20:51,114 --> 00:20:53,434
Speaker 2: were like, how else can we torture women by giving

506
00:20:53,434 --> 00:20:54,754
Speaker 2: them makeovers they don't want.

507
00:20:55,074 --> 00:20:57,954
Speaker 1: It's just give him a bad haircut. They'll do it

508
00:20:57,954 --> 00:20:59,314
Speaker 1: to anyone. I mean, that's pretty bad.

509
00:20:59,314 --> 00:21:01,674
Speaker 2: But it's when they got into like changing people's face,

510
00:21:01,874 --> 00:21:04,513
Speaker 2: facial expression. It's not even the fact that they with

511
00:21:04,594 --> 00:21:06,793
Speaker 2: the girl who's they fixed her teeth. If they had

512
00:21:06,794 --> 00:21:08,754
Speaker 2: actually fixed her teeth, that would have been quite lovely.

513
00:21:09,154 --> 00:21:11,434
Speaker 2: But they only did the top, like the cheapest we

514
00:21:11,554 --> 00:21:14,434
Speaker 2: got found from the documentary, the cheapest like cosmetic side

515
00:21:14,434 --> 00:21:17,114
Speaker 2: which just fell out after well, she says in the documentary,

516
00:21:17,154 --> 00:21:20,554
Speaker 2: I still can't buy it properly. Can we crack on

517
00:21:20,634 --> 00:21:22,033
Speaker 2: this woman to get her teeth fixed?

518
00:21:22,074 --> 00:21:22,354
Speaker 3: Jesus.

519
00:21:23,234 --> 00:21:26,434
Speaker 2: But the most interesting part from the documentary is Danny,

520
00:21:26,474 --> 00:21:28,073
Speaker 2: who was the winner of one of the cycles and

521
00:21:28,114 --> 00:21:30,394
Speaker 2: one of the most beloved winners because people really got

522
00:21:30,434 --> 00:21:33,194
Speaker 2: behind her, is talking about how when she went into

523
00:21:33,194 --> 00:21:36,033
Speaker 2: the model house afterwards because they did get a contract,

524
00:21:36,594 --> 00:21:40,314
Speaker 2: but learning how fake it all was. I felt like

525
00:21:40,354 --> 00:21:41,794
Speaker 2: that moment at the end of The Hills and few

526
00:21:41,794 --> 00:21:43,714
Speaker 2: watched the Hills where like in the last episode they

527
00:21:43,714 --> 00:21:45,674
Speaker 2: pulled the set down. It was all fake and I

528
00:21:45,714 --> 00:21:48,434
Speaker 2: was like everything I learned as a teenager was a lie.

529
00:21:48,794 --> 00:21:50,554
Speaker 2: And then she just sat in the waterhouse and got

530
00:21:50,594 --> 00:21:52,434
Speaker 2: no jobs until they ran a contract out.

531
00:21:52,514 --> 00:21:53,274
Speaker 1: That was really sad.

532
00:21:53,394 --> 00:21:55,714
Speaker 3: The only thing I will say is all the winners

533
00:21:55,714 --> 00:21:58,474
Speaker 3: are disappointed that you know that their modeling career didn't

534
00:21:58,474 --> 00:21:58,954
Speaker 3: go anywhere.

535
00:21:59,434 --> 00:22:00,274
Speaker 1: It was like over.

536
00:22:00,114 --> 00:22:02,594
Speaker 3: Twenty seasons, do you wonder why no one else? Like

537
00:22:02,634 --> 00:22:04,553
Speaker 3: did you not see where all the other models?

538
00:22:05,914 --> 00:22:08,274
Speaker 2: Yeah, a few of them did do a few bits

539
00:22:08,274 --> 00:22:10,474
Speaker 2: and pieces. I remember. Sometimes they would often pop up

540
00:22:10,514 --> 00:22:12,914
Speaker 2: on like TV shows, like one would pop up on

541
00:22:12,914 --> 00:22:14,994
Speaker 2: One Tree Hill as like a guest actor. One would

542
00:22:15,034 --> 00:22:17,354
Speaker 2: pop up on like Rodnie Kamas, like they would be

543
00:22:17,394 --> 00:22:19,154
Speaker 2: at parties and stuff because they were like on the

544
00:22:19,274 --> 00:22:21,194
Speaker 2: kind of like I guess before influences, like on the

545
00:22:21,274 --> 00:22:23,273
Speaker 2: like we'll pack the party at like the US weekly,

546
00:22:23,634 --> 00:22:25,914
Speaker 2: you know, party to launch this new champagne. They'll be

547
00:22:25,914 --> 00:22:27,234
Speaker 2: on the carpet. So I think they got like a

548
00:22:27,274 --> 00:22:28,674
Speaker 2: little burst of fame.

549
00:22:28,474 --> 00:22:31,594
Speaker 3: But just not within like the modeling industry, which I

550
00:22:31,594 --> 00:22:34,313
Speaker 3: think is something that's still reflected today. And like I

551
00:22:34,314 --> 00:22:37,034
Speaker 3: think when you do a reality TV show, like it

552
00:22:37,074 --> 00:22:38,834
Speaker 3: does make it hard if you want to do acting,

553
00:22:38,834 --> 00:22:40,674
Speaker 3: if you want to do modeling, because people do put

554
00:22:40,714 --> 00:22:42,914
Speaker 3: you in that like reality category, and I think that's

555
00:22:42,954 --> 00:22:44,874
Speaker 3: something that still happens today.

556
00:22:44,914 --> 00:22:46,474
Speaker 1: But when you've got a show that's under the.

557
00:22:46,394 --> 00:22:49,194
Speaker 3: Guise of training up these models, but then you've got

558
00:22:49,234 --> 00:22:52,314
Speaker 3: them doing these wacky photo shoots that would never even

559
00:22:52,354 --> 00:22:54,554
Speaker 3: be seen in like editorial or in the industry, like

560
00:22:54,594 --> 00:22:56,794
Speaker 3: they don't and they weren't even allowed to use any

561
00:22:56,794 --> 00:22:58,634
Speaker 3: of those images in a portfolio.

562
00:22:58,914 --> 00:23:00,394
Speaker 2: Yeah, what you're saying such a good point, Like it

563
00:23:00,514 --> 00:23:02,234
Speaker 2: it's hard to sort of see like why the latest

564
00:23:02,274 --> 00:23:05,634
Speaker 2: seasons didn't sort of look at the overall machine and

565
00:23:05,634 --> 00:23:07,474
Speaker 2: be like I'm going to be spad out of this.

566
00:23:07,634 --> 00:23:10,394
Speaker 2: But also there was no other way I guess like

567
00:23:10,474 --> 00:23:12,313
Speaker 2: maybe you just start thinking, like, but I'll be the

568
00:23:12,314 --> 00:23:14,513
Speaker 2: one if I win this show, then I will be

569
00:23:14,554 --> 00:23:15,954
Speaker 2: the one because I'll be on TV and like.

570
00:23:15,874 --> 00:23:18,314
Speaker 3: When you get fed that the whole time, Braur, producers

571
00:23:18,394 --> 00:23:19,994
Speaker 3: like they'll hype you up. Yeah.

572
00:23:20,114 --> 00:23:22,594
Speaker 2: I could have watched Danny's interview on this documentary for

573
00:23:22,834 --> 00:23:25,994
Speaker 2: ages because she's actually well on it, oh exactly, and

574
00:23:25,994 --> 00:23:28,554
Speaker 2: she's still in talking about like the regret she has,

575
00:23:28,594 --> 00:23:30,354
Speaker 2: but also talking about how she sat in that model

576
00:23:30,354 --> 00:23:32,954
Speaker 2: house for months never getting a job, and like other

577
00:23:33,034 --> 00:23:35,954
Speaker 2: models went on to become like world famous. But I

578
00:23:36,194 --> 00:23:38,594
Speaker 2: never knew that she had that conversation with Tyra Banks

579
00:23:38,634 --> 00:23:41,474
Speaker 2: where they talked on the phone years later and Tyra

580
00:23:41,674 --> 00:23:43,674
Speaker 2: said to her, which I've never seen her comment on

581
00:23:43,834 --> 00:23:46,033
Speaker 2: like since this came out, but it's in the documentary

582
00:23:46,034 --> 00:23:49,314
Speaker 2: where she says that Tyra knew Top Model would ruin

583
00:23:49,394 --> 00:23:51,513
Speaker 2: her and would stop her from getting jobs and she

584
00:23:51,554 --> 00:23:53,074
Speaker 2: was always on the fence about it, but let it

585
00:23:53,114 --> 00:23:53,914
Speaker 2: continue anyway.

586
00:23:54,234 --> 00:23:55,994
Speaker 1: God. Yeah, it's interesting.

587
00:23:56,034 --> 00:23:58,513
Speaker 3: I feel like when the documentary starts, we see Tyra

588
00:23:58,674 --> 00:24:00,914
Speaker 3: kind of showing her vision and how she wants to

589
00:24:00,954 --> 00:24:03,273
Speaker 3: bring people up in the industry, but at the end

590
00:24:03,274 --> 00:24:05,634
Speaker 3: of the day. I feel like the popularity of the

591
00:24:05,674 --> 00:24:08,634
Speaker 3: show and how massive went that just kind of overtook everything.

592
00:24:08,874 --> 00:24:11,354
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and it's like feeding that machine became the

593
00:24:11,354 --> 00:24:13,954
Speaker 2: bigger thing. Yeah, it's interesting. So everyone's like sort of

594
00:24:13,994 --> 00:24:16,234
Speaker 2: questioning Tyri's involvement, like we were saying at the top,

595
00:24:16,274 --> 00:24:20,194
Speaker 2: because she has been so beloved. She went on to

596
00:24:20,274 --> 00:24:22,513
Speaker 2: like have that huge talk show and like start a

597
00:24:22,554 --> 00:24:25,513
Speaker 2: business and all of these things, and she's kind of

598
00:24:25,514 --> 00:24:28,154
Speaker 2: been able to skate by with the top model thing

599
00:24:28,194 --> 00:24:30,794
Speaker 2: hanging over her head. But I wonder why the reason

600
00:24:30,914 --> 00:24:33,114
Speaker 2: she was involved in the documentary is that her hand

601
00:24:33,274 --> 00:24:36,234
Speaker 2: was forced to in a certain extent. Is that the

602
00:24:36,274 --> 00:24:39,114
Speaker 2: production start and they said, we're interviewing all of these

603
00:24:39,114 --> 00:24:41,874
Speaker 2: past contestants and we're you know, giving them a huge

604
00:24:41,914 --> 00:24:43,594
Speaker 2: amount of time eache, and they're going to tell us this.

605
00:24:44,034 --> 00:24:46,313
Speaker 2: We have all the judges who worked with you, we

606
00:24:46,434 --> 00:24:49,754
Speaker 2: have the former heads of network, we have the executive producer,

607
00:24:50,074 --> 00:24:52,114
Speaker 2: and your voice will be the only one who's not

608
00:24:52,274 --> 00:24:55,074
Speaker 2: on there. I think that's probably how the conversation went.

609
00:24:55,474 --> 00:24:58,354
Speaker 2: And so she either had the choice to completely sit

610
00:24:58,394 --> 00:25:00,513
Speaker 2: out of it and have a three hour documentary of

611
00:25:00,554 --> 00:25:05,033
Speaker 2: people saying she did this, she was awful, or she

612
00:25:05,074 --> 00:25:06,994
Speaker 2: had the opportunity to come and like give her voice

613
00:25:07,194 --> 00:25:08,714
Speaker 2: to it, and she chose to do that.

614
00:25:09,274 --> 00:25:12,634
Speaker 3: But she feels detached, Like every line feels like a

615
00:25:12,674 --> 00:25:17,154
Speaker 3: line delivered. Yeah, Like she gets quite emotional, but it's detached,

616
00:25:17,234 --> 00:25:19,274
Speaker 3: like I don't feel anything, as if you were seeing that.

617
00:25:19,434 --> 00:25:21,593
Speaker 3: I don't believe it. I don't buy it at all.

618
00:25:21,634 --> 00:25:24,434
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Watching Tyra Banks speak on this documentary

619
00:25:24,954 --> 00:25:28,354
Speaker 2: is kind of like an other worldly experience because it's

620
00:25:28,394 --> 00:25:31,954
Speaker 2: so clear that she is still living in reality TV

621
00:25:32,114 --> 00:25:34,754
Speaker 2: land and everyone else who's on that show is now

622
00:25:34,794 --> 00:25:37,394
Speaker 2: living in the real world, because you see these women

623
00:25:37,394 --> 00:25:40,114
Speaker 2: talk so frankly to camera and they say, like Tiffany,

624
00:25:40,154 --> 00:25:41,914
Speaker 2: the one who did the iconic, like we were rooting

625
00:25:41,954 --> 00:25:42,274
Speaker 2: for you.

626
00:25:42,314 --> 00:25:42,434
Speaker 3: Like.

627
00:25:42,554 --> 00:25:44,833
Speaker 2: She has spoken out since the documentary as well and

628
00:25:44,874 --> 00:25:47,834
Speaker 2: said that that documentary only covered the tip of the

629
00:25:47,914 --> 00:25:50,033
Speaker 2: iceberg of the stuff that she says Tyro did to her.

630
00:25:50,034 --> 00:25:52,954
Speaker 2: Behind the scenes, all the models were talking about like

631
00:25:53,034 --> 00:25:54,714
Speaker 2: things she had done to them, things she had said

632
00:25:54,754 --> 00:25:57,554
Speaker 2: to them, things they saw her do on set. They're

633
00:25:57,594 --> 00:26:00,434
Speaker 2: telling these like real life, really harrwing stories. The other

634
00:26:00,554 --> 00:26:03,314
Speaker 2: judges are all saying like, yeah, like, we did some

635
00:26:03,354 --> 00:26:05,634
Speaker 2: really bad stuff and the only excuse we have is

636
00:26:05,634 --> 00:26:07,834
Speaker 2: that we were just making TV. But then you cut

637
00:26:07,874 --> 00:26:10,273
Speaker 2: to Tyra and she's got a TV face on and

638
00:26:10,314 --> 00:26:12,954
Speaker 2: she's still talking in these like big platitudes like she's

639
00:26:13,034 --> 00:26:15,914
Speaker 2: on the show, and she's like, we were making a movement,

640
00:26:16,394 --> 00:26:19,114
Speaker 2: we were knocking down the doors. We were and it's

641
00:26:19,154 --> 00:26:22,594
Speaker 2: like she still thinks that that rehearsed reality speech is

642
00:26:22,634 --> 00:26:24,514
Speaker 2: going to got her, that they made her a star

643
00:26:24,674 --> 00:26:26,954
Speaker 2: back in the day. Is going to coast over this,

644
00:26:27,234 --> 00:26:29,274
Speaker 2: not knowing that the way people talk and the way

645
00:26:29,274 --> 00:26:30,954
Speaker 2: people look at reality has changed.

646
00:26:30,714 --> 00:26:33,434
Speaker 3: And there's no accountability. She's like, it was the producers,

647
00:26:33,514 --> 00:26:34,513
Speaker 3: it was the audience.

648
00:26:34,754 --> 00:26:36,754
Speaker 1: You guys wanted it. That's why we did it. To

649
00:26:36,834 --> 00:26:38,074
Speaker 1: be fair, we did want that.

650
00:26:38,274 --> 00:26:42,874
Speaker 3: Yeah, like everyone who used to watch people get killed gladiators.

651
00:26:42,274 --> 00:26:46,914
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, But there's people who would definitely watch that now.

652
00:26:47,034 --> 00:26:48,553
Speaker 2: That's the thing is when she was like, you as

653
00:26:48,594 --> 00:26:50,874
Speaker 2: the audience wanted it, I was like, yeah, we did.

654
00:26:50,914 --> 00:26:52,674
Speaker 2: And I think people are angry at that. I saw

655
00:26:52,674 --> 00:26:55,074
Speaker 2: someone being like Tara, I was to help, but ton't

656
00:26:55,114 --> 00:26:57,874
Speaker 2: know what's that I mean. But that's why people watch

657
00:26:57,954 --> 00:27:00,474
Speaker 2: that show because and the thing is, we still love

658
00:27:00,554 --> 00:27:03,994
Speaker 2: that now. We love beautiful young woman being tortured. There's

659
00:27:04,034 --> 00:27:05,634
Speaker 2: so many TV shows about it. That's like there's so

660
00:27:05,634 --> 00:27:08,834
Speaker 2: many influences and like fame physicians who talk about it.

661
00:27:08,834 --> 00:27:11,474
Speaker 2: It's when you do a mad cover, Like nothing resonates

662
00:27:11,514 --> 00:27:13,354
Speaker 2: more than like a beautiful wan a mad cover with

663
00:27:13,434 --> 00:27:16,634
Speaker 2: a harrowing story in the pages. Like we love stuff

664
00:27:16,674 --> 00:27:18,513
Speaker 2: like that. And if those women had just been like

665
00:27:18,554 --> 00:27:21,833
Speaker 2: in a normal kind of modeling competition and it had

666
00:27:21,914 --> 00:27:23,554
Speaker 2: just been like a fantasy.

667
00:27:23,074 --> 00:27:23,834
Speaker 1: You'd be so boring.

668
00:27:23,914 --> 00:27:26,354
Speaker 2: No one would have watched it unless you're being like, oh,

669
00:27:26,394 --> 00:27:28,273
Speaker 2: so your mum was shot, let's shoot you now with

670
00:27:28,354 --> 00:27:30,274
Speaker 2: a bullet wound, which actually happened on the show.

671
00:27:33,114 --> 00:27:36,474
Speaker 3: The photo shoots they did were crazy like and I

672
00:27:36,514 --> 00:27:39,634
Speaker 3: felt like they needed trigger warnings. There was the sense

673
00:27:39,674 --> 00:27:42,513
Speaker 3: of murder. Yeah, the eating disorder one which she's like

674
00:27:42,554 --> 00:27:42,994
Speaker 3: on the.

675
00:27:42,874 --> 00:27:45,394
Speaker 2: Bar and that was really But can I say again

676
00:27:45,514 --> 00:27:47,314
Speaker 2: at the time again, I don't want to ride my

677
00:27:47,354 --> 00:27:48,793
Speaker 2: high holes on this because at the time I was like,

678
00:27:48,834 --> 00:27:50,874
Speaker 2: that is art. I know I was a teenager, but

679
00:27:50,914 --> 00:27:53,154
Speaker 2: also I wasn't a teenage towards the end of it.

680
00:27:53,194 --> 00:27:54,833
Speaker 2: But like you watched it and you were like, this

681
00:27:54,914 --> 00:27:56,994
Speaker 2: is art, Like this is amazing, this is good TV

682
00:27:57,114 --> 00:27:59,834
Speaker 2: because they're so convicted to it, and it felt like

683
00:27:59,914 --> 00:28:02,674
Speaker 2: subversive and like an interesting way. You're like, oh no, no,

684
00:28:02,714 --> 00:28:04,434
Speaker 2: this is how art and fashion is made, and the

685
00:28:04,514 --> 00:28:06,994
Speaker 2: show is capturing it because these people know what they're doing.

686
00:28:07,314 --> 00:28:09,794
Speaker 2: And then when you saw the photo reveals at the end,

687
00:28:09,954 --> 00:28:13,234
Speaker 2: it did feel like life or death for what was happening.

688
00:28:13,314 --> 00:28:15,714
Speaker 2: So I kind of understand, and I also understand that

689
00:28:16,034 --> 00:28:18,914
Speaker 2: feeding the beast of once you're successful, Tyra and the

690
00:28:18,914 --> 00:28:21,794
Speaker 2: executive producer from the show talk about the network being like, well,

691
00:28:21,834 --> 00:28:24,154
Speaker 2: what now, what now? And I understand that because I

692
00:28:24,154 --> 00:28:26,794
Speaker 2: think anyone who creates content or media, or maybe it's

693
00:28:26,794 --> 00:28:28,394
Speaker 2: just me, but I can't see forveryone else. But I

694
00:28:28,394 --> 00:28:31,434
Speaker 2: definitely know that over the years I have written things

695
00:28:31,474 --> 00:28:34,354
Speaker 2: and put like a more subversive headline on it than

696
00:28:34,394 --> 00:28:36,034
Speaker 2: I would do normally, but like, oh, I want people

697
00:28:36,074 --> 00:28:38,594
Speaker 2: to read it, or like making this podcast, like sometimes

698
00:28:38,634 --> 00:28:40,994
Speaker 2: you want to push the line of like what you

699
00:28:41,034 --> 00:28:42,994
Speaker 2: put in a title or kind of what you say

700
00:28:43,114 --> 00:28:43,994
Speaker 2: or something, because like you.

701
00:28:43,954 --> 00:28:45,314
Speaker 1: Want people to push the boundary.

702
00:28:45,394 --> 00:28:48,714
Speaker 2: If people don't consume your product, then there's their product, yeah,

703
00:28:48,754 --> 00:28:50,834
Speaker 2: and the good sides of it then don't get seen.

704
00:28:50,914 --> 00:28:53,114
Speaker 2: So I did kind of feel for Tyra because she

705
00:28:53,514 --> 00:28:56,114
Speaker 2: was treated really badly in the modeling industry. I know

706
00:28:56,194 --> 00:28:59,394
Speaker 2: all models are to an extent, but she was really

707
00:28:59,474 --> 00:29:02,274
Speaker 2: ripped apart for her weight. Terrible things were said about her.

708
00:29:02,594 --> 00:29:05,154
Speaker 2: And there was that scene in the documentary where they

709
00:29:05,194 --> 00:29:07,074
Speaker 2: showed the mad cover. Do you remember this at the time,

710
00:29:07,154 --> 00:29:10,994
Speaker 2: maybe you're two young, but there was these paparazzi photos

711
00:29:11,074 --> 00:29:13,994
Speaker 2: taken of her and this was like peak of paparazzi

712
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:17,074
Speaker 2: currency in this one piece swimsuit at the beach and

713
00:29:17,514 --> 00:29:20,434
Speaker 2: she looked, Yeah, it gets brought up every so often. Still,

714
00:29:20,754 --> 00:29:24,474
Speaker 2: the photos went everywhere, and because we had only only

715
00:29:24,514 --> 00:29:27,634
Speaker 2: seen her on TV and these really like retouched images,

716
00:29:27,954 --> 00:29:29,674
Speaker 2: it was the first time people had kind of seen

717
00:29:29,714 --> 00:29:31,914
Speaker 2: her just looking like a normal woman who had a

718
00:29:31,954 --> 00:29:34,274
Speaker 2: bigger body. There were all these close ups of her

719
00:29:34,314 --> 00:29:36,674
Speaker 2: celluli and close ups of like her arms and her

720
00:29:36,714 --> 00:29:39,514
Speaker 2: face and everything, and those photos went everywhere and it

721
00:29:39,554 --> 00:29:41,714
Speaker 2: was kind of like Tyra Banks as a liar. She's

722
00:29:41,754 --> 00:29:43,714
Speaker 2: really ugly in real life, look at her body, and

723
00:29:43,754 --> 00:29:46,394
Speaker 2: everyone was like ridiculing her, like normal people because the

724
00:29:46,434 --> 00:29:48,154
Speaker 2: magazines were all over, Like if you went up to

725
00:29:48,194 --> 00:29:51,114
Speaker 2: the check out, there's fifty fifty of these magazines and

726
00:29:51,114 --> 00:29:53,114
Speaker 2: everyone's just like, well, look at that ugly woman, Like

727
00:29:53,154 --> 00:29:57,154
Speaker 2: that was the vibe. Yeah and so yeah, exactly. And

728
00:29:57,194 --> 00:29:59,154
Speaker 2: so when she had that big moment on her TV

729
00:29:59,234 --> 00:30:02,194
Speaker 2: show where she wore the same swimsuit out on stage,

730
00:30:02,434 --> 00:30:04,554
Speaker 2: but she had I think the story was she had

731
00:30:04,554 --> 00:30:06,994
Speaker 2: maybe lost some weight or something, so it's kind of like, yeah,

732
00:30:07,114 --> 00:30:08,594
Speaker 2: it was kind of like a but look how good

733
00:30:08,594 --> 00:30:10,914
Speaker 2: I really look. So she came out full body makeup

734
00:30:11,514 --> 00:30:13,154
Speaker 2: and then she was like, kissed my fat ass to

735
00:30:13,194 --> 00:30:16,234
Speaker 2: the camera and she started crying and the audience was screaming,

736
00:30:16,874 --> 00:30:20,274
Speaker 2: and Tyra Banks really did become the face of body

737
00:30:20,274 --> 00:30:21,634
Speaker 2: positivity for a long time there.

738
00:30:21,754 --> 00:30:23,754
Speaker 3: I think that's what's difficult as well about the show,

739
00:30:23,834 --> 00:30:26,234
Speaker 3: that she's kind of like straddling these two things and

740
00:30:26,274 --> 00:30:28,834
Speaker 3: she contradicts herself so much because the whole you know,

741
00:30:28,874 --> 00:30:31,594
Speaker 3: her whole vision was how do we bring in representation

742
00:30:31,754 --> 00:30:36,154
Speaker 3: for different body sizes and shapes and ethnicities. But then

743
00:30:36,194 --> 00:30:38,954
Speaker 3: at the same time it ends up just operating in

744
00:30:38,994 --> 00:30:41,914
Speaker 3: the same value system as it's oppressing the women.

745
00:30:41,954 --> 00:30:42,994
Speaker 1: It's meant to be empowering.

746
00:30:43,154 --> 00:30:45,994
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That's kind of like the mastermind of Tyra

747
00:30:46,074 --> 00:30:49,034
Speaker 2: Banks is that, and a lot of people, especially women's media,

748
00:30:49,154 --> 00:30:51,474
Speaker 2: have done this over the years where they sort of

749
00:30:51,554 --> 00:30:55,354
Speaker 2: take this like approach of like empowerment, but then also

750
00:30:55,394 --> 00:30:57,394
Speaker 2: because they want to build businesses, they sometimes have to

751
00:30:57,474 --> 00:31:02,034
Speaker 2: lean into those sections and kind of almost like breathe

752
00:31:02,034 --> 00:31:04,634
Speaker 2: the thing that they're pushing against in order to stay

753
00:31:05,074 --> 00:31:06,394
Speaker 2: in the business. So that was the part I thought

754
00:31:06,474 --> 00:31:08,874
Speaker 2: was interesting when I was talking about like we had

755
00:31:08,914 --> 00:31:11,114
Speaker 2: one of the first trance models, like we had plus

756
00:31:11,154 --> 00:31:13,314
Speaker 2: size models and they actually did go on to work,

757
00:31:13,354 --> 00:31:15,714
Speaker 2: and that's a true thing. Those things are all true.

758
00:31:15,714 --> 00:31:16,634
Speaker 2: But I think her.

759
00:31:16,754 --> 00:31:19,274
Speaker 1: Twenty four seasons though, yeah, how many women is that?

760
00:31:19,434 --> 00:31:19,634
Speaker 3: I know.

761
00:31:19,674 --> 00:31:21,274
Speaker 1: I think it was like get the stats up.

762
00:31:21,394 --> 00:31:23,394
Speaker 2: I do remember seeing the first time Wat She's seeing

763
00:31:23,394 --> 00:31:25,714
Speaker 2: the girl who was plus fized and being like I

764
00:31:25,754 --> 00:31:27,034
Speaker 2: actually think at the time I was like, well, she

765
00:31:27,034 --> 00:31:29,634
Speaker 2: can't be a model. But at the time, my mind thought,

766
00:31:29,634 --> 00:31:31,474
Speaker 2: like every teenage girl at the time from the media

767
00:31:31,514 --> 00:31:32,834
Speaker 2: that I got, I was like, she's too big to

768
00:31:32,834 --> 00:31:34,874
Speaker 2: be a model, yes, and if she really cared about

769
00:31:34,914 --> 00:31:36,954
Speaker 2: like I think I even said like if she really cared,

770
00:31:36,954 --> 00:31:39,674
Speaker 2: she would not eat as much. So well, we lived

771
00:31:39,714 --> 00:31:41,994
Speaker 2: in that's what it was being said in our houses,

772
00:31:42,034 --> 00:31:43,874
Speaker 2: Like your parents would be like, oh yeah, don't eat,

773
00:31:43,914 --> 00:31:45,954
Speaker 2: like if she didn't you know, that was a whole documentary.

774
00:31:45,994 --> 00:31:48,794
Speaker 1: They're just eating pickles. Yeah, and they're like, well I'm fat.

775
00:31:48,874 --> 00:31:50,914
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god. I remember at school the

776
00:31:50,954 --> 00:31:53,314
Speaker 2: next day we'd all be like not eating it lunch

777
00:31:53,674 --> 00:31:55,394
Speaker 2: because of those kind of things. Yeah. Yeah, and that

778
00:31:55,474 --> 00:31:57,914
Speaker 2: was just normal. It was Yeah, it was crazy. So

779
00:31:57,954 --> 00:31:59,794
Speaker 2: it's kind of hard to like as much as I

780
00:31:59,834 --> 00:32:01,954
Speaker 2: think Tarya like she was feeding the beast a lot.

781
00:32:02,514 --> 00:32:04,314
Speaker 2: It was what people wanted, and.

782
00:32:04,234 --> 00:32:05,154
Speaker 1: It's a network thing.

783
00:32:05,474 --> 00:32:07,754
Speaker 3: Like I think initially they were saying, you know, and one,

784
00:32:07,874 --> 00:32:10,474
Speaker 3: they wanted all this diversity, and then they really struggled

785
00:32:10,474 --> 00:32:13,554
Speaker 3: to get more than one or two people in. Yeah,

786
00:32:13,714 --> 00:32:15,794
Speaker 3: which I think is also interesting because it's still what

787
00:32:15,794 --> 00:32:18,074
Speaker 3: we're seeing today. Like if you look at the Maths cast,

788
00:32:18,634 --> 00:32:20,474
Speaker 3: there's not a lot of diversity.

789
00:32:20,074 --> 00:32:23,114
Speaker 2: Absolutely not, because I think that again, people there is

790
00:32:23,154 --> 00:32:25,594
Speaker 2: this idea of people still wanting this fantasy element.

791
00:32:25,674 --> 00:32:27,234
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've come a long way, But then when I

792
00:32:27,274 --> 00:32:29,794
Speaker 3: compare them, I'm like, oh yeah, exactly for all the

793
00:32:29,834 --> 00:32:32,394
Speaker 3: people who so like watching the Top Model documentary and

794
00:32:32,434 --> 00:32:34,194
Speaker 3: saying like, we would never let this happen.

795
00:32:34,194 --> 00:32:37,834
Speaker 2: Now, my girl, it is happening now. Look on maths,

796
00:32:37,834 --> 00:32:40,194
Speaker 2: we just see it like in just general media. The

797
00:32:40,274 --> 00:32:41,754
Speaker 2: other thing I thought was so interesting, as we were

798
00:32:41,754 --> 00:32:44,274
Speaker 2: saying before, is the other three judges being there, so

799
00:32:44,474 --> 00:32:48,634
Speaker 2: j Manuel, Miss Jay and Nigel Barker and talking about

800
00:32:48,674 --> 00:32:50,674
Speaker 2: stuff that happened to them on the show, because that

801
00:32:50,834 --> 00:32:53,234
Speaker 2: was something I was not aware of. I wasn't aware

802
00:32:53,234 --> 00:32:55,874
Speaker 2: of what happened to j Manuel when he talked about

803
00:32:55,914 --> 00:32:58,394
Speaker 2: trying to leave the show, sending that email to Tira

804
00:32:58,834 --> 00:33:00,994
Speaker 2: because they were best best friends. I remember him being

805
00:33:00,994 --> 00:33:03,474
Speaker 2: best best friends, like she brought him into the fractures

806
00:33:04,034 --> 00:33:07,434
Speaker 2: and her to say, I'm disappointed, and then like watching

807
00:33:07,474 --> 00:33:09,834
Speaker 2: those scenes of the first day he filmed with her

808
00:33:09,914 --> 00:33:12,034
Speaker 2: after he had tried to quit and she said no

809
00:33:12,634 --> 00:33:19,514
Speaker 2: and so awkward, so awkward, hesitant, yeah, and not wanting

810
00:33:19,514 --> 00:33:22,234
Speaker 2: to end, like kind of like seeing like the psychological

811
00:33:22,274 --> 00:33:23,754
Speaker 2: impact that it had had. I don't know, Like I

812
00:33:23,794 --> 00:33:26,514
Speaker 2: also like these men as much as like I appreciate them,

813
00:33:26,554 --> 00:33:29,714
Speaker 2: like being truthful on the show. They were also getting

814
00:33:29,714 --> 00:33:34,634
Speaker 2: a paycheck for being part of this machine and paid. Yeah,

815
00:33:34,674 --> 00:33:36,674
Speaker 2: I think quite a lot at the time. They don't

816
00:33:36,674 --> 00:33:38,834
Speaker 2: get residuals from it. But I think like at the time,

817
00:33:38,874 --> 00:33:40,634
Speaker 2: because it became such a top rated show that we're

818
00:33:40,634 --> 00:33:44,114
Speaker 2: getting a big appearance, like Nigel Barker says in the documentary,

819
00:33:44,634 --> 00:33:46,394
Speaker 2: when I was like, go, I didn't have a plan

820
00:33:46,434 --> 00:33:49,274
Speaker 2: B because that show was my entire like money that

821
00:33:49,354 --> 00:33:52,794
Speaker 2: I was using to raise my kids and everything. And yeah,

822
00:33:52,834 --> 00:33:55,674
Speaker 2: so yeah, kind of interesting, but I thought they're tidbits

823
00:33:55,714 --> 00:33:58,194
Speaker 2: of like saying that they knew that the bat a

824
00:33:58,274 --> 00:34:01,474
Speaker 2: bad photo would be picked. Yeah, I think, yeah.

825
00:34:01,274 --> 00:34:03,154
Speaker 1: It's hard as well because they just feed into it.

826
00:34:03,314 --> 00:34:05,634
Speaker 3: Like I did feel like it was easy to side

827
00:34:05,674 --> 00:34:07,914
Speaker 3: with them and their pigs there kind of going up

828
00:34:07,914 --> 00:34:10,473
Speaker 3: against Tyra as well, but at the same time.

829
00:34:10,393 --> 00:34:12,553
Speaker 1: You're all still part of it. Yeah, it doesn't really

830
00:34:12,594 --> 00:34:13,553
Speaker 1: feel like enough.

831
00:34:14,034 --> 00:34:17,234
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, But also at the same time, like they

832
00:34:17,314 --> 00:34:19,834
Speaker 2: were just feeding into what the audience wanted at the time.

833
00:34:20,034 --> 00:34:23,114
Speaker 2: And I remember Miss Jay the cat or coach that

834
00:34:23,274 --> 00:34:27,194
Speaker 2: at the time was so subversive because again you were

835
00:34:27,234 --> 00:34:30,194
Speaker 2: really only seeing straight white people on TV. And I

836
00:34:30,234 --> 00:34:33,074
Speaker 2: remember there was like some like petitions and backlash to

837
00:34:33,154 --> 00:34:35,034
Speaker 2: have them take to have Miss Jay taken off the

838
00:34:35,074 --> 00:34:37,354
Speaker 2: show because it was like damaging to kids and all

839
00:34:37,394 --> 00:34:39,473
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff, and it's just like but then

840
00:34:39,554 --> 00:34:41,274
Speaker 2: a bigger part of the world, which was a nice thing,

841
00:34:41,394 --> 00:34:43,433
Speaker 2: was just like this person is fabulous and so right

842
00:34:43,434 --> 00:34:46,714
Speaker 2: around the industry and we love them, and that was

843
00:34:47,154 --> 00:34:50,274
Speaker 2: kind of like a nice offshoot of the show. Oh

844
00:34:50,314 --> 00:34:52,034
Speaker 2: but watching Miss Jay come out and talk about their

845
00:34:52,074 --> 00:34:54,194
Speaker 2: stroke and being like I took people how to walk

846
00:34:54,274 --> 00:34:57,394
Speaker 2: and now I can't walk, just like broke my heart.

847
00:34:57,594 --> 00:34:59,473
Speaker 1: So sad and Tyra didn't visit at all.

848
00:35:00,314 --> 00:35:02,873
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's oh my god, she's coming across so.

849
00:35:02,874 --> 00:35:05,553
Speaker 1: Bad doing well, No wonder she moved to Australia. Yeah,

850
00:35:05,554 --> 00:35:06,314
Speaker 1: she's hiding here.

851
00:35:06,634 --> 00:35:08,234
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she did make that sound like a bit

852
00:35:08,234 --> 00:35:09,634
Speaker 2: of a fantasy, and I guess it has been for

853
00:35:09,674 --> 00:35:11,554
Speaker 2: a while because she's sort of been left alone here

854
00:35:11,594 --> 00:35:14,954
Speaker 2: to an extent. But it's kind of interesting to see,

855
00:35:14,994 --> 00:35:18,033
Speaker 2: like also how the firing unfold of those three men

856
00:35:18,554 --> 00:35:21,194
Speaker 2: and being like the lead Dodgers and kind of like

857
00:35:21,274 --> 00:35:23,274
Speaker 2: how at the end of the day they were just

858
00:35:23,314 --> 00:35:25,634
Speaker 2: as expendable as all the women who were pushed off

859
00:35:25,674 --> 00:35:26,034
Speaker 2: the show.

860
00:35:26,754 --> 00:35:29,114
Speaker 3: Yeah, when they left and they were like refreshing it.

861
00:35:29,514 --> 00:35:32,594
Speaker 3: I feel like she was going to leave shortly after two.

862
00:35:33,074 --> 00:35:37,754
Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially potentially. And then those final scenes of the

863
00:35:37,794 --> 00:35:40,674
Speaker 2: documentary I thought with the most telling and the most

864
00:35:40,794 --> 00:35:43,834
Speaker 2: damaging to Tyra Banks because you have all the women

865
00:35:43,874 --> 00:35:46,513
Speaker 2: there kind of like finishing off their stories and like

866
00:35:46,994 --> 00:35:49,953
Speaker 2: they've told these moments of like these hurrying moments from

867
00:35:49,994 --> 00:35:51,794
Speaker 2: their lives, but they were really hopeful and they're talking

868
00:35:51,834 --> 00:35:53,433
Speaker 2: about what they all do now. And then we had

869
00:35:53,434 --> 00:35:56,634
Speaker 2: that beautiful scene of the two Jays and Nigel coming

870
00:35:56,674 --> 00:36:00,234
Speaker 2: back together. That was nice and if that had just

871
00:36:00,314 --> 00:36:02,114
Speaker 2: been for TV, because as I was watching it, I

872
00:36:02,154 --> 00:36:05,274
Speaker 2: was like, are you guys really is this just a fake?

873
00:36:05,314 --> 00:36:08,354
Speaker 2: I can't do any more of the fakeness and the documentary. Yeah,

874
00:36:08,394 --> 00:36:10,993
Speaker 2: on the hug exactly, I was like, is this fake?

875
00:36:10,994 --> 00:36:13,154
Speaker 2: Because my heart's not going to take that. But then

876
00:36:13,234 --> 00:36:15,314
Speaker 2: they were talking about going and visiting Miss Jaye in

877
00:36:15,354 --> 00:36:17,514
Speaker 2: hospital and they had so they and like to me,

878
00:36:17,594 --> 00:36:19,314
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, so that this is not just

879
00:36:19,354 --> 00:36:21,114
Speaker 2: for CAP. I'm sure they've had stuff behind the scenes,

880
00:36:21,154 --> 00:36:23,913
Speaker 2: but that was the moment I bonded, Yeah, where it's

881
00:36:23,954 --> 00:36:26,393
Speaker 2: like this is a proper friendship, and so that hug

882
00:36:26,394 --> 00:36:30,274
Speaker 2: feels really earned. But it was so interesting watching those

883
00:36:30,314 --> 00:36:35,034
Speaker 2: final moments and seeing Tyra Banks still flip into and.

884
00:36:34,914 --> 00:36:38,393
Speaker 1: Before leaning in, still be in flimming in.

885
00:36:38,234 --> 00:36:41,234
Speaker 2: Two thousand and three reality TV mode, even in these

886
00:36:41,274 --> 00:36:43,754
Speaker 2: final hours, and it's like, girl, do you not realize

887
00:36:43,754 --> 00:36:46,594
Speaker 2: how dire you have come off in this? When they're

888
00:36:46,634 --> 00:36:48,634
Speaker 2: saying like who is the worst story? And she's like,

889
00:36:48,674 --> 00:36:51,394
Speaker 2: I don't know, And the producers like, was it Tiffany

890
00:36:51,594 --> 00:36:54,154
Speaker 2: the girl you screamed at? And she was like yeah,

891
00:36:54,194 --> 00:36:56,634
Speaker 2: and Shandy she was like yeah, I don't know. Production

892
00:36:57,114 --> 00:36:58,873
Speaker 2: and they and they were like what about Jay, Like

893
00:36:58,914 --> 00:37:00,794
Speaker 2: what about your falling out? She's like, I won't speak

894
00:37:00,794 --> 00:37:01,114
Speaker 2: about that.

895
00:37:01,114 --> 00:37:01,634
Speaker 1: I got nothing.

896
00:37:01,834 --> 00:37:04,074
Speaker 2: I'll call him. And then in the final moments when

897
00:37:04,114 --> 00:37:06,234
Speaker 2: they asked her, all of a sudden, when they talked

898
00:37:06,234 --> 00:37:09,114
Speaker 2: about living in Australia, a whole demeanor changed, because all

899
00:37:09,114 --> 00:37:10,554
Speaker 2: of a sudden, she was like light at the end

900
00:37:10,554 --> 00:37:14,234
Speaker 2: of the tunnel, this is this is my chance. Sorry,

901
00:37:14,394 --> 00:37:17,474
Speaker 2: and she goes even further into that reality TV voice

902
00:37:17,474 --> 00:37:19,314
Speaker 2: that she'd been using through the documentary, but she went

903
00:37:19,394 --> 00:37:21,513
Speaker 2: even further. She sits up and she was like, we're

904
00:37:21,514 --> 00:37:23,834
Speaker 2: doing this, we're doing this, and like, more to calm,

905
00:37:24,034 --> 00:37:26,274
Speaker 2: watch this space. We're just getting started.

906
00:37:26,274 --> 00:37:28,634
Speaker 1: So she was teasing another season.

907
00:37:28,234 --> 00:37:30,394
Speaker 2: Another Oh she's teasing him the ice cream brand.

908
00:37:30,514 --> 00:37:33,194
Speaker 1: She was like cycle cycle twenty five, Oh my.

909
00:37:33,154 --> 00:37:36,074
Speaker 2: God, like surely not, Oh my god. Maybe I mean no,

910
00:37:36,234 --> 00:37:38,354
Speaker 2: I mean she can't. The ratings would be huge, but

911
00:37:38,434 --> 00:37:39,594
Speaker 2: she she that woman's not.

912
00:37:39,554 --> 00:37:41,114
Speaker 1: Gonna left that in there.

913
00:37:41,634 --> 00:37:43,674
Speaker 2: Let her have it. But it's so because I think

914
00:37:43,714 --> 00:37:46,473
Speaker 2: in her mind she's still producing this like she would

915
00:37:46,514 --> 00:37:48,674
Speaker 2: have produced Top Model on her mind. So in her mind,

916
00:37:48,714 --> 00:37:50,914
Speaker 2: she was like, they're going to end on me looking

917
00:37:50,954 --> 00:37:55,074
Speaker 2: into the camera, fierce and incredible and a trailblazer and

918
00:37:55,074 --> 00:37:57,634
Speaker 2: being like, more to calm, wait till you see. But

919
00:37:57,794 --> 00:38:00,794
Speaker 2: what the documentary actually does, which kind of shows that

920
00:38:00,834 --> 00:38:03,634
Speaker 2: they weren't completely unbiased, is that they tell the other

921
00:38:03,674 --> 00:38:06,114
Speaker 2: contestants what she said. I think it's like Danny, who's like,

922
00:38:06,154 --> 00:38:08,914
Speaker 2: oh shit, the fuck yep. I love that. It's so yeah,

923
00:38:08,914 --> 00:38:10,554
Speaker 2: and they just see all the other women just like

924
00:38:10,634 --> 00:38:11,913
Speaker 2: they're just like breaking like.

925
00:38:11,994 --> 00:38:13,513
Speaker 1: It's bullshit, breaking the fourth wall.

926
00:38:13,514 --> 00:38:16,434
Speaker 2: They're talking to the producers like are you done? Yeah, great, okay, thanks,

927
00:38:16,634 --> 00:38:18,874
Speaker 2: all this sort of stuff, rolling their eyes at Tyra

928
00:38:19,034 --> 00:38:22,154
Speaker 2: and it's like the last scene of that documentary, let

929
00:38:22,314 --> 00:38:23,913
Speaker 2: the contestants have the last laugh.

930
00:38:24,034 --> 00:38:25,634
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that they got to like have that

931
00:38:25,674 --> 00:38:27,514
Speaker 3: moment because it sounds like it had such like a

932
00:38:27,554 --> 00:38:29,433
Speaker 3: long had such a long impact on the rest of

933
00:38:29,474 --> 00:38:29,954
Speaker 3: their lives.

934
00:38:29,994 --> 00:38:32,714
Speaker 2: The series exactly and kind of so like it's like

935
00:38:32,754 --> 00:38:34,674
Speaker 2: they had a place where they wanted everyone to finish up.

936
00:38:34,674 --> 00:38:38,154
Speaker 2: It's like contestants broken but hopeful, and you've got the

937
00:38:38,194 --> 00:38:40,634
Speaker 2: former judges coming together like brothers, and it's like Tyra

938
00:38:40,914 --> 00:38:43,274
Speaker 2: just alone. I wonder if she wasn't allowed to be

939
00:38:43,274 --> 00:38:44,754
Speaker 2: filmed with anyone, if she said no.

940
00:38:45,194 --> 00:38:46,994
Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of think that would have been the case, and.

941
00:38:46,994 --> 00:38:49,794
Speaker 2: They kept her away from everyone, and then it's Tyra alone,

942
00:38:49,914 --> 00:38:53,034
Speaker 2: still trying to like prop up this legacy, and everyone

943
00:38:53,034 --> 00:38:55,074
Speaker 2: around her is like, we're not having that. We're going

944
00:38:55,114 --> 00:38:57,634
Speaker 2: to break it down. Like it's very telling, and I

945
00:38:57,674 --> 00:39:00,554
Speaker 2: think this is being very damaging for her in a

946
00:39:00,594 --> 00:39:02,634
Speaker 2: way that she probably didn't foresee.

947
00:39:02,834 --> 00:39:05,034
Speaker 3: I think she would have anticipated that she'd come across

948
00:39:05,114 --> 00:39:07,354
Speaker 3: quite good, yeah, and made her peace, like she really

949
00:39:07,594 --> 00:39:09,393
Speaker 3: had a lot to say at the up front of

950
00:39:09,434 --> 00:39:11,314
Speaker 3: the documentary, and I think they put in a lot

951
00:39:11,314 --> 00:39:13,554
Speaker 3: more of her commentary where she's building it up on

952
00:39:13,674 --> 00:39:16,954
Speaker 3: you know, how she wants diversity, she wants to have representation.

953
00:39:17,354 --> 00:39:20,274
Speaker 3: But by the end that's completely crumbled away. You can

954
00:39:20,314 --> 00:39:23,714
Speaker 3: kind of see past the facade. And I don't think

955
00:39:23,754 --> 00:39:25,194
Speaker 3: she's gonna be happy with the final edit.

956
00:39:25,274 --> 00:39:27,714
Speaker 2: I don't think she's either, because the tide has turned

957
00:39:27,714 --> 00:39:29,994
Speaker 2: against her even more. Like before she was kind of

958
00:39:30,034 --> 00:39:33,034
Speaker 2: in this in between spot where people were angry at her,

959
00:39:33,154 --> 00:39:36,074
Speaker 2: but they also like had this memory of her of

960
00:39:36,074 --> 00:39:38,393
Speaker 2: being this because she's incredible talent on TV, like you

961
00:39:38,434 --> 00:39:40,754
Speaker 2: say what you will at that woman, Like she makes

962
00:39:40,834 --> 00:39:43,433
Speaker 2: great TV. She's great on camera. When they show that

963
00:39:43,434 --> 00:39:45,834
Speaker 2: scene of her like coming in pretending she was sick

964
00:39:45,874 --> 00:39:49,114
Speaker 2: and falling to the floor, I remember watching that so

965
00:39:49,274 --> 00:39:51,514
Speaker 2: vividly when she pops up there like ah and they

966
00:39:51,554 --> 00:39:53,593
Speaker 2: can stops her laughing. But I was like, I don't

967
00:39:53,594 --> 00:39:56,274
Speaker 2: think that wasn't add that ran for like a week

968
00:39:56,514 --> 00:39:59,634
Speaker 2: every ten minutes before that, and white people watch that

969
00:39:59,714 --> 00:40:02,634
Speaker 2: episode like she's a performer. She's such a performer, and

970
00:40:03,314 --> 00:40:05,994
Speaker 2: it's just interesting to kind of watch now the fallout.

971
00:40:06,034 --> 00:40:08,034
Speaker 2: Now the documentary has been out of days. The fallout

972
00:40:08,074 --> 00:40:10,234
Speaker 2: of how it's tarnished her legacy in a way I

973
00:40:10,234 --> 00:40:12,594
Speaker 2: don't think she can come back from and she didn't foresee.

974
00:40:13,034 --> 00:40:15,594
Speaker 2: But it was also like she can't really write a

975
00:40:15,594 --> 00:40:17,554
Speaker 2: book because then, I mean, she's written stuff before, but

976
00:40:17,794 --> 00:40:19,554
Speaker 2: she can't write a book just about this, because then

977
00:40:19,594 --> 00:40:21,794
Speaker 2: she'll be caught out for not telling all sides of

978
00:40:21,794 --> 00:40:24,234
Speaker 2: the story. If she does a big sit down interview,

979
00:40:24,594 --> 00:40:26,553
Speaker 2: again it's a bit more hard hitting, it doesn't tell

980
00:40:26,554 --> 00:40:29,274
Speaker 2: the full scope. She can't talk about it in smaller

981
00:40:29,314 --> 00:40:32,194
Speaker 2: interviews because a SoundBite is not going to do it justice.

982
00:40:32,234 --> 00:40:33,834
Speaker 2: So this was like her one opportunity for.

983
00:40:33,754 --> 00:40:35,834
Speaker 3: Really it's a really good opportunity to just have a

984
00:40:35,834 --> 00:40:38,634
Speaker 3: candid moment and be honest and apologize for what happened.

985
00:40:39,154 --> 00:40:40,513
Speaker 3: So I think she's kind of missed the boat.

986
00:40:40,674 --> 00:40:42,393
Speaker 2: I think in her head she doesn't think it was

987
00:40:42,434 --> 00:40:45,073
Speaker 2: her fault though, no, because I get two sides every story.

988
00:40:45,074 --> 00:40:46,873
Speaker 2: In her head, she's thinking, but you don't understand how

989
00:40:46,874 --> 00:40:48,913
Speaker 2: many like other men were in that room and told

990
00:40:48,954 --> 00:40:50,674
Speaker 2: me to do this, And you don't understand how like

991
00:40:50,914 --> 00:40:52,914
Speaker 2: after she did that, screaming at Tiffany, like she was

992
00:40:52,954 --> 00:40:55,194
Speaker 2: taken off set and then they filmed all this other

993
00:40:55,194 --> 00:40:57,433
Speaker 2: stuff that was happening, and like even when she got

994
00:40:57,434 --> 00:40:59,834
Speaker 2: booted off the show herself, which I remember, which is

995
00:40:59,914 --> 00:41:02,873
Speaker 2: crazy because it was her show, but the network owned it.

996
00:41:03,114 --> 00:41:05,474
Speaker 3: I think as well, there's like that sprinkling of success

997
00:41:05,514 --> 00:41:07,674
Speaker 3: stories and the fact that it did a lot of

998
00:41:07,834 --> 00:41:11,234
Speaker 3: barriers and it did have representation within it. I think

999
00:41:11,394 --> 00:41:13,834
Speaker 3: that's where she justifies it and finds, you know, this

1000
00:41:13,874 --> 00:41:15,954
Speaker 3: show actually did change the industry.

1001
00:41:16,154 --> 00:41:18,913
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think in that documentary she leans back

1002
00:41:18,954 --> 00:41:21,754
Speaker 2: into being the underdog because for so long that was

1003
00:41:21,874 --> 00:41:23,834
Speaker 2: kind of her golden ticket. I mean, she was the underdog.

1004
00:41:23,874 --> 00:41:26,594
Speaker 2: She was treated terribly as one of color and sometimes

1005
00:41:26,594 --> 00:41:28,913
Speaker 2: having a bigger body, so she was but I think

1006
00:41:29,034 --> 00:41:30,993
Speaker 2: she just got that in her head that was her

1007
00:41:31,034 --> 00:41:34,314
Speaker 2: forever kind of place, and so she Tyra Banks in

1008
00:41:34,354 --> 00:41:37,674
Speaker 2: her head can't reconcile being the leader of Next Top

1009
00:41:37,674 --> 00:41:40,674
Speaker 2: Model when in her head she's the underdog, And so

1010
00:41:40,714 --> 00:41:43,554
Speaker 2: those two things, it was just like, Yeah, it was

1011
00:41:43,674 --> 00:41:45,794
Speaker 2: crazy watching that final I say, to.

1012
00:41:45,754 --> 00:41:46,834
Speaker 1: Go back and watch it again.

1013
00:41:47,794 --> 00:41:50,914
Speaker 2: There was so much inner would you even get to

1014
00:41:50,954 --> 00:41:52,594
Speaker 2: because it'll be like a three hour podcast.

1015
00:41:52,634 --> 00:41:54,714
Speaker 1: But Yeah, overall.

1016
00:41:54,234 --> 00:41:56,634
Speaker 2: I think I also think it hasn't really tarnished the

1017
00:41:56,794 --> 00:41:59,114
Speaker 2: legacy of Top Model in the way that it's still seen.

1018
00:41:59,194 --> 00:41:59,314
Speaker 3: This thing.

1019
00:41:59,554 --> 00:42:01,954
Speaker 1: We're going to go back and rewatch it now, oh probably.

1020
00:42:02,194 --> 00:42:04,033
Speaker 2: And the thing is like there's words from that show.

1021
00:42:04,034 --> 00:42:08,034
Speaker 2: They're in the dictionary now there exactly. There are like

1022
00:42:08,114 --> 00:42:10,194
Speaker 2: phrases like we were rooting for you that like people

1023
00:42:10,234 --> 00:42:13,114
Speaker 2: say on a daily basis. There's like the whole makeover things.

1024
00:42:13,194 --> 00:42:15,914
Speaker 2: So yeah, it was a super interesting look into the

1025
00:42:15,994 --> 00:42:17,913
Speaker 2: legacy of like the show and the people who are

1026
00:42:17,914 --> 00:42:20,314
Speaker 2: on it. And I hope that the women who featured

1027
00:42:20,354 --> 00:42:22,634
Speaker 2: feel at least a little bit of closure getting into

1028
00:42:22,794 --> 00:42:25,354
Speaker 2: vindications say their side of the story in a way.

1029
00:42:25,434 --> 00:42:27,954
Speaker 2: And yeah, Tyra Banks, I would say she's in damage

1030
00:42:27,954 --> 00:42:30,674
Speaker 2: control right now, but I probably not. I wonder if

1031
00:42:30,674 --> 00:42:33,434
Speaker 2: this has just sailed over ahead because it's.

1032
00:42:33,234 --> 00:42:34,993
Speaker 1: Just another she's living in La La Land.

1033
00:42:35,154 --> 00:42:37,794
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, she's living on the road. On the road.

1034
00:42:38,514 --> 00:42:39,514
Speaker 2: It's gonna get some smile.

1035
00:42:40,434 --> 00:42:42,834
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to the Spill today.

1036
00:42:42,954 --> 00:42:45,154
Speaker 3: If you want more, head to our YouTube channel four.

1037
00:42:45,194 --> 00:42:48,714
Speaker 3: Exclusive behind the scenes content link is in the show notes,

1038
00:42:49,074 --> 00:42:51,194
Speaker 3: and Morning Tea drops a new episode on Monday to

1039
00:42:51,234 --> 00:42:53,194
Speaker 3: Thursday to keep you up to speed on all of

1040
00:42:53,194 --> 00:42:55,514
Speaker 3: the celebrity headlines before you get into work.

1041
00:42:55,634 --> 00:42:57,394
Speaker 1: You can front it right here in this feed.

1042
00:42:57,634 --> 00:43:10,674
Speaker 2: Bye Bye, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land.

1043
00:43:10,714 --> 00:43:13,674
Speaker 2: We have recorded this podcast on the Gadigal people of

1044
00:43:13,714 --> 00:43:17,154
Speaker 2: the Oronation. We pay our respects to their elders past

1045
00:43:17,194 --> 00:43:20,074
Speaker 2: and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and

1046
00:43:20,154 --> 00:43:21,554
Speaker 2: Torrestrate Islander cultures.