Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh man, I need to study, but you know what, I
Speaker 2: have some laundry to do. Let me just go do that. Okay,
Speaker 2: time to study. Wait, did I need the stove on?
Speaker 1: Oh? Let me go have a look. Okay, well, I
Speaker 1: guess it's off. I'm a little sleepy. Let me take
Speaker 1: a nap so i'm alert when I start to study
Speaker 1: for Mama Mia. I'm your host, Ashanny Dante. Welcome to
Speaker 1: But Are You Happy? The podcast for people who romanticize
Speaker 1: slow mornings and then snooze is their alarm six times?
Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastagia Hernus, a clinical psychologist passionate about
Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Do you ever set yourself a
Speaker 2: goal or a task, but when it comes time to
Speaker 2: do it, you just can't seem to focus or follow through.
Speaker 1: Yep, I'm definitely guilty of this. I'm suddenly doing ten
Speaker 1: other things around the house and not actually doing the
Speaker 1: thing that's priority.
Speaker 2: Well, you're not alone. Procrastination is super common, and today
Speaker 2: we're going to dive into what's really going on when
Speaker 2: we put things off and why it happens in the
Speaker 2: first place.
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. I feel like, procrastination is such
Speaker 1: a relatable behavior. I feel like I do it all
Speaker 1: the time. Hence why we're dedicating a whole episode to this,
Speaker 1: aren't we? Yeah? So what is procrastination?
Speaker 2: All right, let's start off with some terms and some definitions.
Speaker 2: Procrastination is essentially a behavior where we delay a task
Speaker 2: we need to do. It's really as simple as that.
Speaker 2: It's putting something off that we know needs to get
Speaker 2: done or we know that we need to do so.
Speaker 1: It does sound like such a blanket statement and very generic.
Speaker 1: So are there different types of procrastination or do we
Speaker 1: all just do the same thing.
Speaker 2: We all procrastinate at times, right, because it's a normal
Speaker 2: human natural desire to want to sometimes put things off,
Speaker 2: especially if they're hard, or we know we're not going
Speaker 2: to enjoy them, or they bring up difficult emotions for us.
Speaker 2: There's a whole range of reasons why we might procrastinate
Speaker 2: on certain things. That's normal, that's natural. We all do it.
Speaker 2: I guess there's a difference between those of us who
Speaker 2: might sort of do it infrequently versus those of us
Speaker 2: who do it on the regular. And that's where it
Speaker 2: becomes more problematic for people where they really end up
Speaker 2: in difficult situations because they've delayed tasks so long. But
Speaker 2: when it comes to different types of procrastination, I guess
Speaker 2: you know, there's the avoidance procrastination, where we just want
Speaker 2: to completely avoid doing a task so we don't do
Speaker 2: it at all. But then there's the procrastination that might
Speaker 2: feel productive, where we do the less important tasks first.
Speaker 2: I've certainly been guilty of this at times. Well, I'll
Speaker 2: answer my emails before I get onto the big task
Speaker 2: I need to do, because.
Speaker 1: That feels it feels way better.
Speaker 2: It feels like I'm still doing so I'm still doing
Speaker 2: something right, so I'm technically not procrastinating even though I am.
Speaker 2: So there's that kind of like useful procrastination or productive
Speaker 2: procrastination as we might call it. And then there's kind
Speaker 2: of this more like perfectionistic procrastination, So people that feel like, well,
Speaker 2: I can't start yet because everything's not yet in order.
Speaker 2: I need things to kind of be perfect or to
Speaker 2: be right or to be in order before I can
Speaker 2: start the task, which means that the task often ends
Speaker 2: up getting very delayed because it's really hard to get
Speaker 2: things to feel like they're perfect or exactly right before
Speaker 2: we start.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting as you're talking about all three types
Speaker 1: of procrastination. In my head, I'm like, yep, that's me, Yep,
Speaker 1: that's me. Oh that's me again. Excellent. I don't know
Speaker 1: this is I'm curious to know whether I sit on
Speaker 1: the normal or the chronic side of procrastination. So well,
Speaker 1: I guess I be a therapy session for me.
Speaker 2: So we would ask someone, you know, like, is procrastination
Speaker 2: causing problems in your life? Because we all do it.
Speaker 2: It's like any kind of coping behavior or coping mechanism, right,
Speaker 2: anything in moderation can be okay. But if we feel
Speaker 2: like it means that I'm getting additional fines because I'm
Speaker 2: paying my bills late, or if it means that, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're if someone's at UNI and you're chronically handing
Speaker 2: in your assessments late and they're threatening to keep you
Speaker 2: out of the course, for example, It's sort of like
Speaker 2: how much of a problem does it show up as
Speaker 2: in your life? Because if we procrastinate but there's no
Speaker 2: real problem about it, then I always say something's a
Speaker 2: problem only if it's a problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's a really good way to discern between
Speaker 1: which side that you're on. Yeah, so why do we
Speaker 1: actually procrastinate, Like, what's the reason underneath it all?
Speaker 2: There can be a range of different reasons y.
Speaker 1: So some of the.
Speaker 2: Common ones can be if someone has a lot of
Speaker 2: self doubt or a kind of fear of failure. This
Speaker 2: can really get in the way of starting a task.
Speaker 2: So again, if someone's got a UNI assignment to complete,
Speaker 2: for example, and they're worried about it. They're worried about
Speaker 2: not doing a good job, they're worried about getting a
Speaker 2: bad grade, they're worried that they don't understand the content
Speaker 2: well enough. This can absolutely get in the way of
Speaker 2: them starting the task. So that kind of fear attached
Speaker 2: to the task. It might also be a fear that's
Speaker 2: related to kind of not knowing how to do the task. So,
Speaker 2: for example, if someone has to do their taxes and
Speaker 2: they've never done their taxes before, or they find that
Speaker 2: a really hard thing, that could be another reason why
Speaker 2: someone procrastinates because it feels hard and overwhelming. We also
Speaker 2: have the category of people who are more perfectionistic and
Speaker 2: do have those perfectionistic tendencies, and that can make tasks
Speaker 2: feel really overwhelming because if I approach a task feeling
Speaker 2: like it needs to be perfect or I need to
Speaker 2: get it exactly right or do the absolute best I
Speaker 2: possibly can, it feels like a lot of pressure, and
Speaker 2: so naturally and understandably, someone's going to delay starting that task.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really interesting because all the three factors
Speaker 1: you've just identified is so relatable. And I know for me,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of women ask me. You know,
Speaker 1: procrastination is definitely a question that comes up women who
Speaker 1: want to start their own businesses and they want to
Speaker 1: know how to combat this. But a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: at the root of it is things like fear. And
Speaker 1: you know, we just keep ruminating, ruminating on all these thoughts,
Speaker 1: and it actually gets me thinking about two seasons ago
Speaker 1: on our first episode we talked about anxiety, and I
Speaker 1: know you mentioned a lot of okay, what's actually helpful
Speaker 1: thoughts and unhelpful and I feel like that kind of
Speaker 1: weaves in quite nicely with what we're identifying.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I love that you talk about this link
Speaker 2: between perfectionism and kind of self doubt and self belief, right,
Speaker 2: because the two really do go hand in hand. Often
Speaker 2: it is that the person who may appear as being
Speaker 2: quite perfectionistic and having everything put together and under control,
Speaker 2: operates that way as a coping mechanism for those underlying
Speaker 2: beliefs or fears around self doubt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so true. Gosh, it feels like you're reading my
Speaker 1: journal lately. I was like, how does she literally write
Speaker 1: about perfectionism like the other day? It's great. So it's
Speaker 1: interesting to me because when it comes to procrastination, it
Speaker 1: somewhat feels quite automatic, like it's a habit. Like what's
Speaker 1: going on there?
Speaker 2: It can become a habit, right, The more we do
Speaker 2: something more habitual it does become. So the more we procrastinate,
Speaker 2: the easier it will be for our brain and body
Speaker 2: to procrastinate. Again, if I talk about neural pathways in
Speaker 2: the brain, the more that we use a pathway in
Speaker 2: the brain, the stronger and more automatic it becomes. So
Speaker 2: if procrastination becomes a habit for me, it's often because
Speaker 2: I've practiced it a lot. But procrastination is often in
Speaker 2: some way a choice. Right. We don't not do the
Speaker 2: task because we forget about it, because if we do,
Speaker 2: if I forget to do my taxes, that's different to
Speaker 2: me procrastinating doing my taxes. If I'm procrastinating, I know
Speaker 2: at the back of my head, I've got that thing,
Speaker 2: Oh do your taxes? Do your taxes? You know, like
Speaker 2: I'm not forgetting about it. It's there. Yeah, So there
Speaker 2: is a degree of choice when it comes to procrastination,
Speaker 2: and people are often aware that they're procrastinating. It's slightly
Speaker 2: different to something we would refer to as task paralysis.
Speaker 2: So this is a kind of form of procrastination that
Speaker 2: some people can develop. We see it sometimes common for
Speaker 2: people ADHD, for example. But it is this overwhelm that
Speaker 2: feels paralyzing. It's almost like the body's fight flight freeze
Speaker 2: system is activated and someone goes into a freeze state,
Speaker 2: and that's much less of a choice. That's sort of
Speaker 2: an experience that overwhelms someone and renders them sort of
Speaker 2: paralyzed to be able to engage in that task.
Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know about that. It's really interesting because
Speaker 1: I definitely can find myself when I'm on social media.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to take a break,
Speaker 1: and then next minute, I'm literally I don't even know
Speaker 1: if we say next minute anymore. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's a trend. Gen Zs. Don't judge me, but literally,
Speaker 1: ten like thirty minutes later, I've been scrolling and it
Speaker 1: gets me thinking about the environment that we're in. So
Speaker 1: how does environment impact procrastination?
Speaker 2: It's a good point, you know, if we are in
Speaker 2: an environment where we have a lot of distractions, where
Speaker 2: there's a lack of structure, for example, this can make
Speaker 2: it easier for us to procrastinate. In every day. We
Speaker 2: have limited mental resources and only so much capacity to
Speaker 2: be able to plan out the day right, So, being
Speaker 2: able to have sort of structure in our day, if
Speaker 2: I know that when I wake up, I have these
Speaker 2: certain tasks I need to do, it's going to reduce
Speaker 2: some of the mental load that I need for the
Speaker 2: day ahead. But if everything is kind of unstructured in
Speaker 2: my day to day life, if it feels quite chaotic
Speaker 2: and disorganized, it means that I need to use more
Speaker 2: of my mental load, more of that mental capacity to
Speaker 2: figure things out and plan as I go along. So
Speaker 2: that can sometimes be not very helpful if I'm trying
Speaker 2: to reduce the amount that I procrastinate.
Speaker 1: I really love that you're talking about structure, because essentially
Speaker 1: structure does give us more clarity, like in our everyday task,
Speaker 1: but also in our inner world too.
Speaker 2: Clarity and control. Right, if i feel like I've got
Speaker 2: a plan for the day, if i feel like I've
Speaker 2: got some degree of structure, I feel more in control
Speaker 2: over myself, over my behaviors and actions for the day
Speaker 2: and how the day might pan out.
Speaker 1: It's so fascinating because procrastination it feels like there are
Speaker 1: so many layers to it, and I feel like you've
Speaker 1: already spoken to the emotions. It can be a habit.
Speaker 1: There's the environment, like are there other reasons as well
Speaker 1: why we procrastinate?
Speaker 2: There can be unhelpful thought patterns attached to procrastination. So
Speaker 2: if we think about we've talked about thoughts, feelings, and
Speaker 2: behaviors in the past, these link up. This is the
Speaker 2: foundation of a lot of psychological work that we do.
Speaker 2: If we think about the emotion underpinning procrastination, it's often
Speaker 2: an emotion relating to anxiety or overwhelm or stress or
Speaker 2: fear of that kind of fear of failure. But there
Speaker 2: can be some unhelpful thought patterns attached to it as well.
Speaker 2: So these might be thoughts like what we call the
Speaker 2: optimism bias, so I'll feel like doing it later. It's
Speaker 2: this kind of false optimism. I don't feel like doing
Speaker 2: it now, but I'll feel like doing it later, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to wait for that feeling to come about
Speaker 2: because that will motivate me to get the task done.
Speaker 2: Nice in theory, but usually doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So are we like lying to ourselves in that
Speaker 1: moment when we say that subconsciously?
Speaker 2: Pretty much?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Mostly. I mean if you are the sort of person
Speaker 2: and you have the experience in the past of going
Speaker 2: I know that I will feel like it later and
Speaker 2: I can run with that, then great, okay, But for
Speaker 2: most of us, the feeling will come once we start.
Speaker 2: It's not often that the kind of feeling of motivation
Speaker 2: to do my taxes is going to just magically appear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: So there's this kind of optimism bias where we're biased
Speaker 2: in thinking that at a later point in time we'll
Speaker 2: feel more motivated to do it, and that's not how
Speaker 2: motivation works. Motivation typically works by us starting a task
Speaker 2: and then building upon that, and once we start, we
Speaker 2: generally feel more motivated to keep going and complete it.
Speaker 2: So there's this optimism bias. There's also sometimes a bit
Speaker 2: of a planning fallacy, and again I think this is
Speaker 2: a little bit of us sometimes lying to ourselves, where
Speaker 2: we maybe tell ourselves a task won't actually take as
Speaker 2: long to get done as we think, or the task
Speaker 2: won't require as much effort as it actually will. This
Speaker 2: is a way of kind of minimizing the requirements of
Speaker 2: the task and being like, I'll do it later because
Speaker 2: it only takes me like twenty minutes to do it,
Speaker 2: when in reality it probably won't take me twenty minutes
Speaker 2: to do it, or I'll do it at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, when actually at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: I'm probably going to be most tired and less willing
Speaker 2: to do it. So we can, you know, play sort
Speaker 2: of little mental mind games and tricks and fall into
Speaker 2: these unhelpful patterns of thinking that mean we delay a task,
Speaker 2: but it's not actually very good for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such an interesting one, the planning fallacy one,
Speaker 1: because I feel like I'm the opposite where I can
Speaker 1: overthink a task and like this is going to take
Speaker 1: me five hours and it can be quite dramatic with it,
Speaker 1: but I actually can sit with it and you're like, oh, dang,
Speaker 1: it took me an hour. Yes, so it's like I'm
Speaker 1: I'm going the other.
Speaker 2: Way, which is great when you do it and you
Speaker 2: get that after effect of like, oh it wasn't as
Speaker 2: bad as I thought. Yeah, But on the flip side,
Speaker 2: that this is going to take five hours can feel
Speaker 2: really overwhelming because it's where am I going to find
Speaker 2: five hours to fit this in and to do this task?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: That real big, overwhelming kind of approach can also have
Speaker 2: the opposite effect where we then procrastinate because it feels
Speaker 2: so big.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's also hard. I mean, this is where
Speaker 1: we've got a blanket some self compassion in it, because
Speaker 1: sometimes there's tasks that we haven't genuinely done before or
Speaker 1: their new tasks, so we don't actually know how long
Speaker 1: it's going to take as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's true. That's true.
Speaker 1: So I feel like the word procrastination can often get villainized.
Speaker 1: Is there any good to procrastination?
Speaker 2: Well, to procrastination itself, to delaying task? Right, if we're
Speaker 2: talking about procrastination is delaying tasks sometimes, like you know,
Speaker 2: if I have something I really need to focus on
Speaker 2: right now, and this other task can wait then delaying
Speaker 2: it is a useful approach, but I kind of wouldn't
Speaker 2: necessarily call that procrastination. Procrastination is when we're intentionally putting
Speaker 2: things off that we know we need to do. What
Speaker 2: I would say is there is a usefulness to sometimes
Speaker 2: feelings of anxiety slash stress, because that's often what might
Speaker 2: be underlying the feeling of wanting to delay something. So
Speaker 2: there's actually something called the yerkx Dodson law, Yes, the
Speaker 2: law about the law. So essentially what it is if
Speaker 2: you can imagine an upside down U shape, right, So
Speaker 2: there is a level of stress. And when I'm talking
Speaker 2: about stress, I'm really talking about kind of a physiological stress.
Speaker 2: To think of it like energy or adrenaline, not like
Speaker 2: you know, debilitating worry. Yeah, there's a level of stress
Speaker 2: that can be helpful for us when we're trying to
Speaker 2: get tasks done. So if you imagine the upside down
Speaker 2: U shape, if you're on the very end of the
Speaker 2: kind of you where you have no stress whatsoever, this
Speaker 2: means we don't really have much motivation to get things done.
Speaker 2: So it actually can be really hard if we have
Speaker 2: no stress to get the task done. On the other end,
Speaker 2: of the U. When we have extreme amounts of stress,
Speaker 2: this can also be debilitating because we're not in the
Speaker 2: right mind frame, we're not in the right sort of
Speaker 2: physiological state to actually get the task done. So there's
Speaker 2: this optimal level in the middle, at the peak of
Speaker 2: our you where we have some stress in the body,
Speaker 2: and that means that we're actually quite effective at getting
Speaker 2: the task done and getting it done with a degree
Speaker 2: of efficiency and accuracy as well.
Speaker 1: Oh, I really love the visual diagram because I'm just
Speaker 1: seeing it now and it's just going to be a
Speaker 1: good check for me next time when I'm stressing out
Speaker 1: or procrastinating being like, Okay, where am I at with
Speaker 1: this law? Yeah, at the Yerkstudson law.
Speaker 2: Yes, And when you feel that like a little bit
Speaker 2: of stress there that's kind of niggling almost like lean
Speaker 2: into that and use that and be like, right now's
Speaker 2: my moment, I've got a little bit of that stress
Speaker 2: kind of happening. I can lean into that and actually
Speaker 2: use that to motivate me to get the task done,
Speaker 2: because when the stress gets to the other end and
Speaker 2: it's overwhelming, we're probably not getting much done there.
Speaker 1: I feel like, for me, my inner critic voice can
Speaker 1: get louder sometimes, especially when I'm procrastinating. Is that a
Speaker 1: normal thing?
Speaker 2: It's very common. Ye, it's unfortunately common because people know
Speaker 2: they have a task that needs to get done and
Speaker 2: they do want to do it. It's not that we
Speaker 2: don't want to do it, we just don't want to
Speaker 2: have to go through the process of doing it. We
Speaker 2: want it done without having to do it totally, and
Speaker 2: so we know we need to do it, we know
Speaker 2: it might be really important as well, But there is
Speaker 2: that part of us that in a critic that comes
Speaker 2: up and that can be really mean and harsh towards
Speaker 2: us when, as we said, sometimes things are just hard
Speaker 2: to do. Sometimes they feel quite overwhelming. Sometimes they don't
Speaker 2: feel personally important to us, and we almost kind of
Speaker 2: resent the fact we have to do them. But that
Speaker 2: inner critic can make the whole process so much harder
Speaker 2: to deal with.
Speaker 1: So true. Thank god I'm not alone. So when it
Speaker 1: comes to procrastination, the hardest part is always starting. So
Speaker 1: how do we start building momentum?
Speaker 2: The hardest part is starting, and I want to say
Speaker 2: sometimes the most important part is starting. Yeah, momentum and
Speaker 2: motivation comes once we start. So that's why the start
Speaker 2: is so important. If we wait for motivation to come,
Speaker 2: we'll be probably waiting a really long time. So we
Speaker 2: have to find ways to make the start feel as
Speaker 2: easy as possible. And typically what we recommend is break
Speaker 2: the task down into its smallest components, and I would
Speaker 2: often recommend find the easiest part to do first. So
Speaker 2: if it's you know, I'm going to use the example
Speaker 2: of doing your taxes, right, if you have the task
Speaker 2: of doing your taxes, the idea of doing my taxes
Speaker 2: feels big and overwhelming and oh my gosh, it's going
Speaker 2: to take hours and I'm going to have to do
Speaker 2: so much and go through so much paperwork. Yeah, what's
Speaker 2: the first the first part of it. Maybe the first
Speaker 2: part is just gathering a bunch of papers and receipts,
Speaker 2: you know. Maybe it's just putting everything in a pile
Speaker 2: together on the desk, And that's the first step. Find
Speaker 2: the first step and make it as small and as
Speaker 2: easy as possible. And that's important to start this kind
Speaker 2: of trajectory of motivation to come from there. And I
Speaker 2: love that it sounds simple, It sounds a bit cliched,
Speaker 2: but it is effective.
Speaker 1: So have you found that effective for you breaking it up.
Speaker 2: Yes'm I mean I'm not a typical procrastinator. I like
Speaker 2: to do I'm II lean the opposite way. I like
Speaker 2: to do things as soon as they like come into
Speaker 2: my orbit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2: But I will say the one thing, well, one of
Speaker 2: things that I did procrastinate was when I had to
Speaker 2: start writing my book. I procrastinated that for about a month.
Speaker 2: I only had like a six month deadline, so a
Speaker 2: month felt like a long time to produce the manuscript.
Speaker 2: But I delayed it because it felt like once I started,
Speaker 2: then I've started. But before I start, I haven't yet
Speaker 2: started writing. So it was almost this like fake reassurance.
Speaker 2: Well I haven't started yet. I haven't. I've still got time.
Speaker 2: I haven't started yet. And I remember I was like, okay, Anastasia,
Speaker 2: you just need to create the document that you're going
Speaker 2: to start writing in. And I remember like the day
Speaker 2: where I like sat down and was like, I'm making
Speaker 2: the document and this is the start of the book.
Speaker 2: And I just put the title there and that's all
Speaker 2: I did. But I started. It was like literally as
Speaker 2: simple as just starting a word document and that was it.
Speaker 2: I didn't put any more pressure on myself, and I
Speaker 2: knew that it would sort of come once I ripped
Speaker 2: off that band aid and started that first part. But
Speaker 2: that first part I did delay, but just breaking it
Speaker 2: down into the smallest part of like you just got
Speaker 2: to start a document that made it feel more manageable.
Speaker 2: And I just had to focus on right now, not
Speaker 2: on finishing it, not on the end point, but just
Speaker 2: on doing the thing that I have to do right now,
Speaker 2: this one simple task.
Speaker 1: I really love that because essentially we're wanting to create
Speaker 1: a winnable game for ourselves, Like every task we do,
Speaker 1: it's a game. And I think when we can show
Speaker 1: ourselves like, oh, look we did that one thing. We
Speaker 1: put a title on that document.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a win.
Speaker 1: It is, and it's celebrating the small wins, that takes
Speaker 1: that pressure off. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I think to kind of build on this
Speaker 2: com about sort of time management and structural techniques. When
Speaker 2: it comes to addressing procrastination. There is something called the
Speaker 2: Pomodoro technique. So this again is about time management and
Speaker 2: breaking tasks down, but it's more about time intervals rather
Speaker 2: than pieces of the task itself. So the suggestion is
Speaker 2: to try and improve focus in productivity. We work on
Speaker 2: a single task for twenty five minutes, take a five
Speaker 2: minute break, and then repeat this cycle. And after you've
Speaker 2: done four rounds of this, you take longer breaks of
Speaker 2: fifteen to thirty minutes.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, And that's effective.
Speaker 2: It is effective, And I like it because it's prescriptive.
Speaker 2: And sometimes when we're struggling to find our own self
Speaker 2: motivation or self regulation, having a prescribed pathway can be
Speaker 2: useful to lean on.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So, I know you've given us some really
Speaker 1: great practical time management skills, but when it comes to procrastination,
Speaker 1: it isn't all about time management, right, because there's stuff
Speaker 1: going on underneath, So like, how do we address that?
Speaker 2: The time management is a real sort of practical sort
Speaker 2: of way to approach it. But as we said before,
Speaker 2: there's these emotional underpinnings at a lot of the time
Speaker 2: that can be related to sort of fear or overwhelm.
Speaker 2: I think this is where it's really important for us
Speaker 2: to reflect on what's actually underneath my procrastination. What am
Speaker 2: I feeling? Why am I feeling this urge to procrastinate
Speaker 2: this task and put it off? Is it that I'm
Speaker 2: worried about the failure potential failure? Is it that I
Speaker 2: feel like I need to get it one hundred percent right,
Speaker 2: that I resent the fact I have to do this task.
Speaker 2: If we can address and find those underlying feelings getting
Speaker 2: in the way of the procrastination, then we can work
Speaker 2: with those feelings. We can sort of challenge some of
Speaker 2: those those emotions and thoughts attached to the emotions. We
Speaker 2: can journal about it, we can kind of work through
Speaker 2: the feelings to take away a layer of a barrier
Speaker 2: to that procrastination.
Speaker 1: So what about the environment when it comes to breaking
Speaker 1: through procrastination and building that momentum.
Speaker 2: I would recommend an environment that is quite clear, you know,
Speaker 2: clear of distractions. We don't want too many distractions in
Speaker 2: the space. We want it to not be an environment
Speaker 2: where maybe we usually do other things. So often we
Speaker 2: recommend to people, you know, don't sit and try and
Speaker 2: do work in bed, for example, because bed is attached
Speaker 2: to sleep, not attached to work. Guilty, and we might
Speaker 2: be more likely to just open Netflix rather than actually
Speaker 2: kind of do the task in front of us. Again,
Speaker 2: this is with a grain of salt. If you find
Speaker 2: you work really well in bed and can also sleep
Speaker 2: really well, then keep going. But for those of us
Speaker 2: who might procrastinate, don't try and work in bed or
Speaker 2: sometimes even in your room. I know that's not always
Speaker 2: possible for people who might be living in spaces where
Speaker 2: the only place they can work for is in their bedroom,
Speaker 2: but if possible, maybe not working in the bedroom. It
Speaker 2: might be sort of taking yourself to a different space.
Speaker 2: Some people will find working in a cafe can be
Speaker 2: really effective for them, so taking themselves to a space
Speaker 2: that's away from their kind of usual environment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you were really unpacking environment because
Speaker 1: for me, I can operate very differently because I like
Speaker 1: to romanticize my space, so lights and candles, incense. I
Speaker 1: might even create a bit of a reward system for myself,
Speaker 1: being like, okay, Shannie, you can have a mucha after
Speaker 1: you get through this task. It's still a reward even
Speaker 1: though I have it every day. But I think creating
Speaker 1: a cozy space for me feels like it just allows
Speaker 1: it to feel a little bit more enjoyable. So it
Speaker 1: is you know, it is going to be different for everyone,
Speaker 1: and that's okay too.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, sometimes people will find a lot of comfort
Speaker 2: in that romanticized space as you said for others, it'll
Speaker 2: feel too comfortable and they'll not want to do the
Speaker 2: work or the hard task. So it depends on the
Speaker 2: person totally.
Speaker 1: And I think something that's really worked for me, And
Speaker 1: it's an interesting one because I know we have all
Speaker 1: sorts of people tuning in, but I know for me
Speaker 1: being a woman, and you know, whether it's people that
Speaker 1: have wombs as well, knowing that women operate on a
Speaker 1: twenty eight day cycle, you know, because I think we're
Speaker 1: used to that more masculine consistency, twenty four hour clock,
Speaker 1: but our bodies aren't designed like that. And that's been
Speaker 1: a massive breakthrough for me because I'm tracking where I'm
Speaker 1: at in my different phases on my cycle. So right
Speaker 1: now I'm giving you all insight into my cycle. But
Speaker 1: I'm like in my late lou Tell phase, So that's
Speaker 1: when I feel a lot more tired. I'm like not
Speaker 1: my energy is dipping, So that's when I can ramp
Speaker 1: up my self compassion, and then that also helps me
Speaker 1: to know what environment I want to be in. I
Speaker 1: want to be horizontal while doing my work and that's okay,
Speaker 1: you know. So I think it's really nice that we
Speaker 1: can bring more of an awareness to it because I
Speaker 1: think it's like a new dialogue that's coming through for women.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and on a broad level, just this idea
Speaker 2: that we're not consistent as people. You know, we're going
Speaker 2: to vary in terms of our mood, how we're feeling,
Speaker 2: how much energy we have, and that's going to impact
Speaker 2: our ability to get things done in the day. Herb Hearb, Hearb.
Speaker 2: I'm cowving a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 1: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer
Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you Anaesthesia. This
Speaker 1: one comes from Eve.
Speaker 3: I don't know if this is procrastination or if it's
Speaker 3: something deeper, but I find myself putting things off, even
Speaker 3: things that I really want to do. Like I'll look
Speaker 3: forward to the weekend and I think I'm going to
Speaker 3: start this brand new project. I've been excited about it
Speaker 3: for months, and then on the weekend, I'll just spend
Speaker 3: the time like cleaning, watching videos on my phone, and
Speaker 3: just doing anything except like the project that I really
Speaker 3: care about doing. And with this comes a massive like
Speaker 3: shame spiral. I beat myself up. I'm always telling myself
Speaker 3: that I'm lazy and unmotivated and just like not disciplined
Speaker 3: enough to follow stuff through. But I don't think that
Speaker 3: voice is helping. If anything, it's probably making it harder
Speaker 3: for me to get started. Why do I keep avoiding
Speaker 3: the things that matter to me? And how do I
Speaker 3: stop feeling so much shame around it?
Speaker 1: Great? Self aware? Does Eve?
Speaker 2: I agree?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I agree, especially recognizing that that shame spiral isn't probably helping.
Speaker 2: Right when I was listening to this, I was thinking
Speaker 2: about that productive procrastination sort of category that we were
Speaker 2: talking about. Not that they're sort of clinical definitions of procrastination,
Speaker 2: but these sort of subtypes we can fall into. They're
Speaker 2: sort of cleaning the house instead of starting that project
Speaker 2: that you want to start. I would recommend to Eve
Speaker 2: to think about what's getting in the way of starting
Speaker 2: that project. Is it that it feels too big and
Speaker 2: overwhelming and you're just not really sure where to start.
Speaker 2: Is it that you're worried about starting it and not
Speaker 2: being successful or there being some sort of failure along
Speaker 2: the way. Do you feel like, perhaps you know, once
Speaker 2: you start it, then it's real, you've sort of committed
Speaker 2: to it, and there's something scary about that. I would say,
Speaker 2: spend some time thinking about the fear or the emotions
Speaker 2: underlying the procrastination for you and what getting in the way,
Speaker 2: and once you're able to identify that, you'll be able
Speaker 2: to figure out ways to move past it. As we've
Speaker 2: said before as well, starting small is the best way.
Speaker 2: Where they say you eat an elephant one bite at
Speaker 2: a time, or whatever the saying is, that's not the saying.
Speaker 2: I hope I got that right. If not, that will
Speaker 2: sound terrible.
Speaker 1: We're a leading elephants now.
Speaker 2: But it really is the idea of just like taking
Speaker 2: it one chunk at a time, figure out what that
Speaker 2: first step is with this project that you've got your
Speaker 2: mind set on, and what's the very first small step
Speaker 2: that you can take to get started on that. And
Speaker 2: as for the shame spiral and the self criticism, you're
Speaker 2: absolutely right that this is probably not helping you. So
Speaker 2: in that case, i'd actually recommend you check back in
Speaker 2: Without Inner Critic episode all about self criticism to find
Speaker 2: out some ways to combat that critical inner voice.
Speaker 1: You've got this Eve, let us know how you go
Speaker 1: with breaking up at it. Anastasia, can you summarize all
Speaker 1: of the latest takeaways we got from this episode sure can.
Speaker 2: First of all, procrastination is a normal, natural, common behavior
Speaker 2: that everyone does. Second, some people might fall into the
Speaker 2: category of chronic procrastinators if they find themselves doing it
Speaker 2: too much and in excess. Third, starting is the best
Speaker 2: way to overcome procrastination, So find the smallest first step
Speaker 2: you can possibly do and build from there. And then, lastly,
Speaker 2: remember to hold compassion for yourself if you do find
Speaker 2: yourself falling into the procrastination trap.
Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there are
Speaker 1: a few ways to get in contact with us, links
Speaker 1: through in the show notes.
Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas that we
Speaker 2: present here should always take into account your personal medical history.
Speaker 1: On next week's episode, we're going to be talking about
Speaker 1: different ways to grieve, what's healthy and what's not. Tune
Speaker 1: in next week.
Speaker 2: The senior producer of But Are You Happy?
Speaker 1: Is Tarlie Blackman, Executive producer is Naima Brown, and Social
Speaker 1: producer is Jemma Donaho.
Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Tina Madalov.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram and TikTok search at
Speaker 1: but Are You Happy? Pod. I'm a Shani Dante and.
Speaker 2: I'm doctor Anastatia Heronus. The names and stories of clients
Speaker 2: discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes
Speaker 2: around the topics we discussed today. If you are wanting
Speaker 2: more immediate support, you can also reach out to organizations
Speaker 2: like Lifeline or Beyond Blue.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.