1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:09,399 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 2: Oh man, I need to study, but you know what, I 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 2: have some laundry to do. Let me just go do that. Okay, 4 00:00:18,599 --> 00:00:23,199 Speaker 2: time to study. Wait, did I need the stove on? 5 00:00:23,959 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: Oh? Let me go have a look. Okay, well, I 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: guess it's off. I'm a little sleepy. Let me take 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: a nap so i'm alert when I start to study 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: for Mama Mia. I'm your host, Ashanny Dante. Welcome to 9 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: But Are You Happy? The podcast for people who romanticize 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: slow mornings and then snooze is their alarm six times? 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastagia Hernus, a clinical psychologist passionate about 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Do you ever set yourself a 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: goal or a task, but when it comes time to 14 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: do it, you just can't seem to focus or follow through. 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: Yep, I'm definitely guilty of this. I'm suddenly doing ten 16 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: other things around the house and not actually doing the 17 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: thing that's priority. 18 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: Well, you're not alone. Procrastination is super common, and today 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 2: we're going to dive into what's really going on when 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: we put things off and why it happens in the 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: first place. 22 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: Let's get into it. I feel like, procrastination is such 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: a relatable behavior. I feel like I do it all 24 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: the time. Hence why we're dedicating a whole episode to this, 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: aren't we? Yeah? So what is procrastination? 26 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: All right, let's start off with some terms and some definitions. 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: Procrastination is essentially a behavior where we delay a task 28 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 2: we need to do. It's really as simple as that. 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: It's putting something off that we know needs to get 30 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 2: done or we know that we need to do so. 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: It does sound like such a blanket statement and very generic. 32 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: So are there different types of procrastination or do we 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: all just do the same thing. 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: We all procrastinate at times, right, because it's a normal 35 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: human natural desire to want to sometimes put things off, 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: especially if they're hard, or we know we're not going 37 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: to enjoy them, or they bring up difficult emotions for us. 38 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: There's a whole range of reasons why we might procrastinate 39 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: on certain things. That's normal, that's natural. We all do it. 40 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: I guess there's a difference between those of us who 41 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: might sort of do it infrequently versus those of us 42 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: who do it on the regular. And that's where it 43 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: becomes more problematic for people where they really end up 44 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: in difficult situations because they've delayed tasks so long. But 45 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: when it comes to different types of procrastination, I guess 46 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: you know, there's the avoidance procrastination, where we just want 47 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: to completely avoid doing a task so we don't do 48 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: it at all. But then there's the procrastination that might 49 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: feel productive, where we do the less important tasks first. 50 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 2: I've certainly been guilty of this at times. Well, I'll 51 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: answer my emails before I get onto the big task 52 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: I need to do, because. 53 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: That feels it feels way better. 54 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 2: It feels like I'm still doing so I'm still doing 55 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: something right, so I'm technically not procrastinating even though I am. 56 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: So there's that kind of like useful procrastination or productive 57 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: procrastination as we might call it. And then there's kind 58 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: of this more like perfectionistic procrastination, So people that feel like, well, 59 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: I can't start yet because everything's not yet in order. 60 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 2: I need things to kind of be perfect or to 61 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: be right or to be in order before I can 62 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 2: start the task, which means that the task often ends 63 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: up getting very delayed because it's really hard to get 64 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: things to feel like they're perfect or exactly right before 65 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: we start. 66 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: It's so interesting as you're talking about all three types 67 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: of procrastination. In my head, I'm like, yep, that's me, Yep, 68 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: that's me. Oh that's me again. Excellent. I don't know 69 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: this is I'm curious to know whether I sit on 70 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: the normal or the chronic side of procrastination. So well, 71 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: I guess I be a therapy session for me. 72 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: So we would ask someone, you know, like, is procrastination 73 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: causing problems in your life? Because we all do it. 74 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: It's like any kind of coping behavior or coping mechanism, right, 75 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: anything in moderation can be okay. But if we feel 76 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: like it means that I'm getting additional fines because I'm 77 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: paying my bills late, or if it means that, you know, 78 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: if you're if someone's at UNI and you're chronically handing 79 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: in your assessments late and they're threatening to keep you 80 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 2: out of the course, for example, It's sort of like 81 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: how much of a problem does it show up as 82 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: in your life? Because if we procrastinate but there's no 83 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: real problem about it, then I always say something's a 84 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:16,879 Speaker 2: problem only if it's a problem. 85 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's a really good way to discern between 86 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: which side that you're on. Yeah, so why do we 87 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: actually procrastinate, Like, what's the reason underneath it all? 88 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: There can be a range of different reasons y. 89 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: So some of the. 90 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: Common ones can be if someone has a lot of 91 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: self doubt or a kind of fear of failure. This 92 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: can really get in the way of starting a task. 93 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: So again, if someone's got a UNI assignment to complete, 94 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: for example, and they're worried about it. They're worried about 95 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: not doing a good job, they're worried about getting a 96 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 2: bad grade, they're worried that they don't understand the content 97 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: well enough. This can absolutely get in the way of 98 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: them starting the task. So that kind of fear attached 99 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: to the task. It might also be a fear that's 100 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: related to kind of not knowing how to do the task. So, 101 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: for example, if someone has to do their taxes and 102 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 2: they've never done their taxes before, or they find that 103 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: a really hard thing, that could be another reason why 104 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: someone procrastinates because it feels hard and overwhelming. We also 105 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 2: have the category of people who are more perfectionistic and 106 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: do have those perfectionistic tendencies, and that can make tasks 107 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: feel really overwhelming because if I approach a task feeling 108 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: like it needs to be perfect or I need to 109 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: get it exactly right or do the absolute best I 110 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 2: possibly can, it feels like a lot of pressure, and 111 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: so naturally and understandably, someone's going to delay starting that task. 112 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really interesting because all the three factors 113 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: you've just identified is so relatable. And I know for me, 114 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of women ask me. You know, 115 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: procrastination is definitely a question that comes up women who 116 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: want to start their own businesses and they want to 117 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: know how to combat this. But a lot of the time, 118 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: at the root of it is things like fear. And 119 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, we just keep ruminating, ruminating on all these thoughts, 120 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: and it actually gets me thinking about two seasons ago 121 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: on our first episode we talked about anxiety, and I 122 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: know you mentioned a lot of okay, what's actually helpful 123 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: thoughts and unhelpful and I feel like that kind of 124 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: weaves in quite nicely with what we're identifying. 125 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I love that you talk about this link 126 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: between perfectionism and kind of self doubt and self belief, right, 127 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: because the two really do go hand in hand. Often 128 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 2: it is that the person who may appear as being 129 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 2: quite perfectionistic and having everything put together and under control, 130 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: operates that way as a coping mechanism for those underlying 131 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: beliefs or fears around self doubt. 132 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so true. Gosh, it feels like you're reading my 133 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: journal lately. I was like, how does she literally write 134 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: about perfectionism like the other day? It's great. So it's 135 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: interesting to me because when it comes to procrastination, it 136 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: somewhat feels quite automatic, like it's a habit. Like what's 137 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: going on there? 138 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: It can become a habit, right, The more we do 139 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: something more habitual it does become. So the more we procrastinate, 140 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: the easier it will be for our brain and body 141 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: to procrastinate. Again, if I talk about neural pathways in 142 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: the brain, the more that we use a pathway in 143 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: the brain, the stronger and more automatic it becomes. So 144 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: if procrastination becomes a habit for me, it's often because 145 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: I've practiced it a lot. But procrastination is often in 146 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: some way a choice. Right. We don't not do the 147 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: task because we forget about it, because if we do, 148 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 2: if I forget to do my taxes, that's different to 149 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: me procrastinating doing my taxes. If I'm procrastinating, I know 150 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: at the back of my head, I've got that thing, 151 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: Oh do your taxes? Do your taxes? You know, like 152 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: I'm not forgetting about it. It's there. Yeah, So there 153 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: is a degree of choice when it comes to procrastination, 154 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: and people are often aware that they're procrastinating. It's slightly 155 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: different to something we would refer to as task paralysis. 156 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: So this is a kind of form of procrastination that 157 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: some people can develop. We see it sometimes common for 158 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: people ADHD, for example. But it is this overwhelm that 159 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: feels paralyzing. It's almost like the body's fight flight freeze 160 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 2: system is activated and someone goes into a freeze state, 161 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: and that's much less of a choice. That's sort of 162 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: an experience that overwhelms someone and renders them sort of 163 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: paralyzed to be able to engage in that task. 164 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know about that. It's really interesting because 165 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: I definitely can find myself when I'm on social media. 166 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to take a break, 167 00:08:33,839 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: and then next minute, I'm literally I don't even know 168 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,359 Speaker 1: if we say next minute anymore. I don't know if 169 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: that's a trend. Gen Zs. Don't judge me, but literally, 170 00:08:40,959 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: ten like thirty minutes later, I've been scrolling and it 171 00:08:44,719 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: gets me thinking about the environment that we're in. So 172 00:08:47,959 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: how does environment impact procrastination? 173 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,479 Speaker 2: It's a good point, you know, if we are in 174 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 2: an environment where we have a lot of distractions, where 175 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 2: there's a lack of structure, for example, this can make 176 00:09:00,079 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: it easier for us to procrastinate. In every day. We 177 00:09:03,599 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: have limited mental resources and only so much capacity to 178 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: be able to plan out the day right, So, being 179 00:09:09,839 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: able to have sort of structure in our day, if 180 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: I know that when I wake up, I have these 181 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,519 Speaker 2: certain tasks I need to do, it's going to reduce 182 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,239 Speaker 2: some of the mental load that I need for the 183 00:09:17,319 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: day ahead. But if everything is kind of unstructured in 184 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: my day to day life, if it feels quite chaotic 185 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: and disorganized, it means that I need to use more 186 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: of my mental load, more of that mental capacity to 187 00:09:28,959 --> 00:09:31,399 Speaker 2: figure things out and plan as I go along. So 188 00:09:31,439 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: that can sometimes be not very helpful if I'm trying 189 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 2: to reduce the amount that I procrastinate. 190 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: I really love that you're talking about structure, because essentially 191 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,999 Speaker 1: structure does give us more clarity, like in our everyday task, 192 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,599 Speaker 1: but also in our inner world too. 193 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: Clarity and control. Right, if i feel like I've got 194 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:50,479 Speaker 2: a plan for the day, if i feel like I've 195 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: got some degree of structure, I feel more in control 196 00:09:53,479 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 2: over myself, over my behaviors and actions for the day 197 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 2: and how the day might pan out. 198 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating because procrastination it feels like there are 199 00:10:00,839 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: so many layers to it, and I feel like you've 200 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: already spoken to the emotions. It can be a habit. 201 00:10:05,719 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: There's the environment, like are there other reasons as well 202 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 1: why we procrastinate? 203 00:10:10,079 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: There can be unhelpful thought patterns attached to procrastination. So 204 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 2: if we think about we've talked about thoughts, feelings, and 205 00:10:18,239 --> 00:10:20,719 Speaker 2: behaviors in the past, these link up. This is the 206 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 2: foundation of a lot of psychological work that we do. 207 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: If we think about the emotion underpinning procrastination, it's often 208 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:34,279 Speaker 2: an emotion relating to anxiety or overwhelm or stress or 209 00:10:34,359 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: fear of that kind of fear of failure. But there 210 00:10:37,079 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 2: can be some unhelpful thought patterns attached to it as well. 211 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 2: So these might be thoughts like what we call the 212 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: optimism bias, so I'll feel like doing it later. It's 213 00:10:47,839 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: this kind of false optimism. I don't feel like doing 214 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 2: it now, but I'll feel like doing it later, and 215 00:10:53,319 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 2: I'm going to wait for that feeling to come about 216 00:10:55,599 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: because that will motivate me to get the task done. 217 00:10:58,719 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: Nice in theory, but usually doesn't work that way. 218 00:11:02,119 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: Yeah. So are we like lying to ourselves in that 219 00:11:04,239 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: moment when we say that subconsciously? 220 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: Pretty much? 221 00:11:07,079 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 3: Yeah? 222 00:11:07,319 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: Okay? 223 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: Mostly. I mean if you are the sort of person 224 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,519 Speaker 2: and you have the experience in the past of going 225 00:11:13,599 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: I know that I will feel like it later and 226 00:11:15,319 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 2: I can run with that, then great, okay, But for 227 00:11:18,319 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: most of us, the feeling will come once we start. 228 00:11:22,959 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: It's not often that the kind of feeling of motivation 229 00:11:25,839 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: to do my taxes is going to just magically appear. 230 00:11:28,599 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. 231 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,479 Speaker 2: So there's this kind of optimism bias where we're biased 232 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,279 Speaker 2: in thinking that at a later point in time we'll 233 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 2: feel more motivated to do it, and that's not how 234 00:11:36,119 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 2: motivation works. Motivation typically works by us starting a task 235 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: and then building upon that, and once we start, we 236 00:11:42,119 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: generally feel more motivated to keep going and complete it. 237 00:11:45,319 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: So there's this optimism bias. There's also sometimes a bit 238 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 2: of a planning fallacy, and again I think this is 239 00:11:52,079 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 2: a little bit of us sometimes lying to ourselves, where 240 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,519 Speaker 2: we maybe tell ourselves a task won't actually take as 241 00:11:59,599 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: long to get done as we think, or the task 242 00:12:02,079 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 2: won't require as much effort as it actually will. This 243 00:12:06,119 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: is a way of kind of minimizing the requirements of 244 00:12:09,439 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: the task and being like, I'll do it later because 245 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: it only takes me like twenty minutes to do it, 246 00:12:13,839 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 2: when in reality it probably won't take me twenty minutes 247 00:12:16,359 --> 00:12:18,359 Speaker 2: to do it, or I'll do it at the end 248 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,719 Speaker 2: of the day, when actually at the end of the day, 249 00:12:20,719 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: I'm probably going to be most tired and less willing 250 00:12:23,599 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: to do it. So we can, you know, play sort 251 00:12:26,599 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: of little mental mind games and tricks and fall into 252 00:12:30,119 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 2: these unhelpful patterns of thinking that mean we delay a task, 253 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 2: but it's not actually very good for us. 254 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such an interesting one, the planning fallacy one, 255 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: because I feel like I'm the opposite where I can 256 00:12:43,239 --> 00:12:45,879 Speaker 1: overthink a task and like this is going to take 257 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: me five hours and it can be quite dramatic with it, 258 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: but I actually can sit with it and you're like, oh, dang, 259 00:12:50,439 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: it took me an hour. Yes, so it's like I'm 260 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: I'm going the other. 261 00:12:53,719 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: Way, which is great when you do it and you 262 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: get that after effect of like, oh it wasn't as 263 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: bad as I thought. Yeah, But on the flip side, 264 00:13:00,959 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: that this is going to take five hours can feel 265 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: really overwhelming because it's where am I going to find 266 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: five hours to fit this in and to do this task? 267 00:13:07,439 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: You know? 268 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: That real big, overwhelming kind of approach can also have 269 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,359 Speaker 2: the opposite effect where we then procrastinate because it feels 270 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 2: so big. 271 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's also hard. I mean, this is where 272 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: we've got a blanket some self compassion in it, because 273 00:13:19,359 --> 00:13:22,279 Speaker 1: sometimes there's tasks that we haven't genuinely done before or 274 00:13:22,439 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: their new tasks, so we don't actually know how long 275 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: it's going to take as well. 276 00:13:26,239 --> 00:13:28,359 Speaker 2: Yes, that's true. That's true. 277 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: So I feel like the word procrastination can often get villainized. 278 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: Is there any good to procrastination? 279 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: Well, to procrastination itself, to delaying task? Right, if we're 280 00:13:41,479 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: talking about procrastination is delaying tasks sometimes, like you know, 281 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 2: if I have something I really need to focus on 282 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: right now, and this other task can wait then delaying 283 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: it is a useful approach, but I kind of wouldn't 284 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: necessarily call that procrastination. Procrastination is when we're intentionally putting 285 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,279 Speaker 2: things off that we know we need to do. What 286 00:14:01,319 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 2: I would say is there is a usefulness to sometimes 287 00:14:05,239 --> 00:14:09,639 Speaker 2: feelings of anxiety slash stress, because that's often what might 288 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: be underlying the feeling of wanting to delay something. So 289 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,239 Speaker 2: there's actually something called the yerkx Dodson law, Yes, the 290 00:14:17,359 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: law about the law. So essentially what it is if 291 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: you can imagine an upside down U shape, right, So 292 00:14:25,479 --> 00:14:29,279 Speaker 2: there is a level of stress. And when I'm talking 293 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: about stress, I'm really talking about kind of a physiological stress. 294 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: To think of it like energy or adrenaline, not like 295 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: you know, debilitating worry. Yeah, there's a level of stress 296 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,239 Speaker 2: that can be helpful for us when we're trying to 297 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: get tasks done. So if you imagine the upside down 298 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: U shape, if you're on the very end of the 299 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: kind of you where you have no stress whatsoever, this 300 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: means we don't really have much motivation to get things done. 301 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: So it actually can be really hard if we have 302 00:14:57,359 --> 00:15:00,999 Speaker 2: no stress to get the task done. On the other end, 303 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: of the U. When we have extreme amounts of stress, 304 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,119 Speaker 2: this can also be debilitating because we're not in the 305 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: right mind frame, we're not in the right sort of 306 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: physiological state to actually get the task done. So there's 307 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: this optimal level in the middle, at the peak of 308 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 2: our you where we have some stress in the body, 309 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,239 Speaker 2: and that means that we're actually quite effective at getting 310 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: the task done and getting it done with a degree 311 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: of efficiency and accuracy as well. 312 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,239 Speaker 1: Oh, I really love the visual diagram because I'm just 313 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: seeing it now and it's just going to be a 314 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,399 Speaker 1: good check for me next time when I'm stressing out 315 00:15:34,479 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: or procrastinating being like, Okay, where am I at with 316 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,999 Speaker 1: this law? Yeah, at the Yerkstudson law. 317 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,479 Speaker 2: Yes, And when you feel that like a little bit 318 00:15:42,479 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: of stress there that's kind of niggling almost like lean 319 00:15:45,239 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: into that and use that and be like, right now's 320 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: my moment, I've got a little bit of that stress 321 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,879 Speaker 2: kind of happening. I can lean into that and actually 322 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 2: use that to motivate me to get the task done, 323 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: because when the stress gets to the other end and 324 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: it's overwhelming, we're probably not getting much done there. 325 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: I feel like, for me, my inner critic voice can 326 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: get louder sometimes, especially when I'm procrastinating. Is that a 327 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: normal thing? 328 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,239 Speaker 2: It's very common. Ye, it's unfortunately common because people know 329 00:16:09,359 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 2: they have a task that needs to get done and 330 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,359 Speaker 2: they do want to do it. It's not that we 331 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: don't want to do it, we just don't want to 332 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: have to go through the process of doing it. We 333 00:16:16,239 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: want it done without having to do it totally, and 334 00:16:18,479 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 2: so we know we need to do it, we know 335 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: it might be really important as well, But there is 336 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: that part of us that in a critic that comes 337 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: up and that can be really mean and harsh towards 338 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,759 Speaker 2: us when, as we said, sometimes things are just hard 339 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: to do. Sometimes they feel quite overwhelming. Sometimes they don't 340 00:16:34,359 --> 00:16:36,879 Speaker 2: feel personally important to us, and we almost kind of 341 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: resent the fact we have to do them. But that 342 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,359 Speaker 2: inner critic can make the whole process so much harder 343 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 2: to deal with. 344 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: So true. Thank god I'm not alone. So when it 345 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,359 Speaker 1: comes to procrastination, the hardest part is always starting. So 346 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: how do we start building momentum? 347 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: The hardest part is starting, and I want to say 348 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 2: sometimes the most important part is starting. Yeah, momentum and 349 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: motivation comes once we start. So that's why the start 350 00:17:11,879 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 2: is so important. If we wait for motivation to come, 351 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 2: we'll be probably waiting a really long time. So we 352 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: have to find ways to make the start feel as 353 00:17:22,159 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: easy as possible. And typically what we recommend is break 354 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: the task down into its smallest components, and I would 355 00:17:30,399 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: often recommend find the easiest part to do first. So 356 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: if it's you know, I'm going to use the example 357 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 2: of doing your taxes, right, if you have the task 358 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 2: of doing your taxes, the idea of doing my taxes 359 00:17:42,679 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 2: feels big and overwhelming and oh my gosh, it's going 360 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: to take hours and I'm going to have to do 361 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 2: so much and go through so much paperwork. Yeah, what's 362 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: the first the first part of it. Maybe the first 363 00:17:51,679 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 2: part is just gathering a bunch of papers and receipts, 364 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: you know. Maybe it's just putting everything in a pile 365 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 2: together on the desk, And that's the first step. Find 366 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: the first step and make it as small and as 367 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 2: easy as possible. And that's important to start this kind 368 00:18:06,919 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 2: of trajectory of motivation to come from there. And I 369 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: love that it sounds simple, It sounds a bit cliched, 370 00:18:13,639 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 2: but it is effective. 371 00:18:14,919 --> 00:18:17,039 Speaker 1: So have you found that effective for you breaking it up. 372 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: Yes'm I mean I'm not a typical procrastinator. I like 373 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: to do I'm II lean the opposite way. I like 374 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: to do things as soon as they like come into 375 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 2: my orbit. 376 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. 377 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 2: But I will say the one thing, well, one of 378 00:18:33,399 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: things that I did procrastinate was when I had to 379 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: start writing my book. I procrastinated that for about a month. 380 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: I only had like a six month deadline, so a 381 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: month felt like a long time to produce the manuscript. 382 00:18:44,919 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 2: But I delayed it because it felt like once I started, 383 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 2: then I've started. But before I start, I haven't yet 384 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,999 Speaker 2: started writing. So it was almost this like fake reassurance. 385 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: Well I haven't started yet. I haven't. I've still got time. 386 00:18:56,879 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: I haven't started yet. And I remember I was like, okay, Anastasia, 387 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 2: you just need to create the document that you're going 388 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: to start writing in. And I remember like the day 389 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 2: where I like sat down and was like, I'm making 390 00:19:09,639 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 2: the document and this is the start of the book. 391 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 2: And I just put the title there and that's all 392 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 2: I did. But I started. It was like literally as 393 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: simple as just starting a word document and that was it. 394 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 2: I didn't put any more pressure on myself, and I 395 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: knew that it would sort of come once I ripped 396 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 2: off that band aid and started that first part. But 397 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 2: that first part I did delay, but just breaking it 398 00:19:31,399 --> 00:19:33,279 Speaker 2: down into the smallest part of like you just got 399 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: to start a document that made it feel more manageable. 400 00:19:35,879 --> 00:19:38,239 Speaker 2: And I just had to focus on right now, not 401 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 2: on finishing it, not on the end point, but just 402 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: on doing the thing that I have to do right now, 403 00:19:42,679 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 2: this one simple task. 404 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: I really love that because essentially we're wanting to create 405 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: a winnable game for ourselves, Like every task we do, 406 00:19:48,919 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: it's a game. And I think when we can show 407 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,519 Speaker 1: ourselves like, oh, look we did that one thing. We 408 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: put a title on that document. 409 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a win. 410 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: It is, and it's celebrating the small wins, that takes 411 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: that pressure off. Yeah. 412 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,279 Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I think to kind of build on this 413 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: com about sort of time management and structural techniques. When 414 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: it comes to addressing procrastination. There is something called the 415 00:20:11,679 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: Pomodoro technique. So this again is about time management and 416 00:20:15,919 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: breaking tasks down, but it's more about time intervals rather 417 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: than pieces of the task itself. So the suggestion is 418 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,479 Speaker 2: to try and improve focus in productivity. We work on 419 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: a single task for twenty five minutes, take a five 420 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: minute break, and then repeat this cycle. And after you've 421 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 2: done four rounds of this, you take longer breaks of 422 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: fifteen to thirty minutes. 423 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: Oh wow, And that's effective. 424 00:20:39,639 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 2: It is effective, And I like it because it's prescriptive. 425 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 2: And sometimes when we're struggling to find our own self 426 00:20:47,679 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: motivation or self regulation, having a prescribed pathway can be 427 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: useful to lean on. 428 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So, I know you've given us some really 429 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: great practical time management skills, but when it comes to procrastination, 430 00:21:03,159 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 1: it isn't all about time management, right, because there's stuff 431 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: going on underneath, So like, how do we address that? 432 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 2: The time management is a real sort of practical sort 433 00:21:12,159 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: of way to approach it. But as we said before, 434 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: there's these emotional underpinnings at a lot of the time 435 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 2: that can be related to sort of fear or overwhelm. 436 00:21:20,639 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: I think this is where it's really important for us 437 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,239 Speaker 2: to reflect on what's actually underneath my procrastination. What am 438 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: I feeling? Why am I feeling this urge to procrastinate 439 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: this task and put it off? Is it that I'm 440 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,759 Speaker 2: worried about the failure potential failure? Is it that I 441 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: feel like I need to get it one hundred percent right, 442 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 2: that I resent the fact I have to do this task. 443 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 2: If we can address and find those underlying feelings getting 444 00:21:48,919 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: in the way of the procrastination, then we can work 445 00:21:51,879 --> 00:21:54,239 Speaker 2: with those feelings. We can sort of challenge some of 446 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: those those emotions and thoughts attached to the emotions. We 447 00:21:57,919 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: can journal about it, we can kind of work through 448 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 2: the feelings to take away a layer of a barrier 449 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 2: to that procrastination. 450 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: So what about the environment when it comes to breaking 451 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: through procrastination and building that momentum. 452 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 2: I would recommend an environment that is quite clear, you know, 453 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 2: clear of distractions. We don't want too many distractions in 454 00:22:21,919 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 2: the space. We want it to not be an environment 455 00:22:24,919 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: where maybe we usually do other things. So often we 456 00:22:27,399 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 2: recommend to people, you know, don't sit and try and 457 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: do work in bed, for example, because bed is attached 458 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: to sleep, not attached to work. Guilty, and we might 459 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 2: be more likely to just open Netflix rather than actually 460 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: kind of do the task in front of us. Again, 461 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: this is with a grain of salt. If you find 462 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 2: you work really well in bed and can also sleep 463 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: really well, then keep going. But for those of us 464 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: who might procrastinate, don't try and work in bed or 465 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 2: sometimes even in your room. I know that's not always 466 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 2: possible for people who might be living in spaces where 467 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: the only place they can work for is in their bedroom, 468 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 2: but if possible, maybe not working in the bedroom. It 469 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: might be sort of taking yourself to a different space. 470 00:23:04,639 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: Some people will find working in a cafe can be 471 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 2: really effective for them, so taking themselves to a space 472 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 2: that's away from their kind of usual environment. 473 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you were really unpacking environment because 474 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: for me, I can operate very differently because I like 475 00:23:17,679 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: to romanticize my space, so lights and candles, incense. I 476 00:23:21,679 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: might even create a bit of a reward system for myself, 477 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: being like, okay, Shannie, you can have a mucha after 478 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: you get through this task. It's still a reward even 479 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: though I have it every day. But I think creating 480 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: a cozy space for me feels like it just allows 481 00:23:35,639 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: it to feel a little bit more enjoyable. So it 482 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: is you know, it is going to be different for everyone, 483 00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: and that's okay too. 484 00:23:41,159 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, sometimes people will find a lot of comfort 485 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: in that romanticized space as you said for others, it'll 486 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,479 Speaker 2: feel too comfortable and they'll not want to do the 487 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: work or the hard task. So it depends on the 488 00:23:52,639 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: person totally. 489 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: And I think something that's really worked for me, And 490 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: it's an interesting one because I know we have all 491 00:23:58,159 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: sorts of people tuning in, but I know for me 492 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: being a woman, and you know, whether it's people that 493 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: have wombs as well, knowing that women operate on a 494 00:24:06,399 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: twenty eight day cycle, you know, because I think we're 495 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: used to that more masculine consistency, twenty four hour clock, 496 00:24:13,399 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: but our bodies aren't designed like that. And that's been 497 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: a massive breakthrough for me because I'm tracking where I'm 498 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: at in my different phases on my cycle. So right 499 00:24:21,919 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: now I'm giving you all insight into my cycle. But 500 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm like in my late lou Tell phase, So that's 501 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,759 Speaker 1: when I feel a lot more tired. I'm like not 502 00:24:30,919 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: my energy is dipping, So that's when I can ramp 503 00:24:33,639 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: up my self compassion, and then that also helps me 504 00:24:36,399 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: to know what environment I want to be in. I 505 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: want to be horizontal while doing my work and that's okay, 506 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: you know. So I think it's really nice that we 507 00:24:43,919 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: can bring more of an awareness to it because I 508 00:24:45,879 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: think it's like a new dialogue that's coming through for women. 509 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and on a broad level, just this idea 510 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: that we're not consistent as people. You know, we're going 511 00:24:56,399 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: to vary in terms of our mood, how we're feeling, 512 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: how much energy we have, and that's going to impact 513 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: our ability to get things done in the day. Herb Hearb, Hearb. 514 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 2: I'm cowving a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis. 515 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer 516 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you Anaesthesia. This 517 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: one comes from Eve. 518 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 3: I don't know if this is procrastination or if it's 519 00:25:26,639 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 3: something deeper, but I find myself putting things off, even 520 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 3: things that I really want to do. Like I'll look 521 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 3: forward to the weekend and I think I'm going to 522 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 3: start this brand new project. I've been excited about it 523 00:25:36,399 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 3: for months, and then on the weekend, I'll just spend 524 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 3: the time like cleaning, watching videos on my phone, and 525 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 3: just doing anything except like the project that I really 526 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 3: care about doing. And with this comes a massive like 527 00:25:48,159 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: shame spiral. I beat myself up. I'm always telling myself 528 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 3: that I'm lazy and unmotivated and just like not disciplined 529 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,719 Speaker 3: enough to follow stuff through. But I don't think that 530 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 3: voice is helping. If anything, it's probably making it harder 531 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 3: for me to get started. Why do I keep avoiding 532 00:26:03,159 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 3: the things that matter to me? And how do I 533 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 3: stop feeling so much shame around it? 534 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: Great? Self aware? Does Eve? 535 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: I agree? 536 00:26:12,159 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? 537 00:26:12,399 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 2: I agree, especially recognizing that that shame spiral isn't probably helping. 538 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: Right when I was listening to this, I was thinking 539 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: about that productive procrastination sort of category that we were 540 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 2: talking about. Not that they're sort of clinical definitions of procrastination, 541 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 2: but these sort of subtypes we can fall into. They're 542 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 2: sort of cleaning the house instead of starting that project 543 00:26:31,399 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: that you want to start. I would recommend to Eve 544 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 2: to think about what's getting in the way of starting 545 00:26:37,399 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 2: that project. Is it that it feels too big and 546 00:26:40,919 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 2: overwhelming and you're just not really sure where to start. 547 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: Is it that you're worried about starting it and not 548 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 2: being successful or there being some sort of failure along 549 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: the way. Do you feel like, perhaps you know, once 550 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: you start it, then it's real, you've sort of committed 551 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: to it, and there's something scary about that. I would say, 552 00:26:57,919 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 2: spend some time thinking about the fear or the emotions 553 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: underlying the procrastination for you and what getting in the way, 554 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 2: and once you're able to identify that, you'll be able 555 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: to figure out ways to move past it. As we've 556 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: said before as well, starting small is the best way. 557 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 2: Where they say you eat an elephant one bite at 558 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 2: a time, or whatever the saying is, that's not the saying. 559 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: I hope I got that right. If not, that will 560 00:27:21,399 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 2: sound terrible. 561 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 1: We're a leading elephants now. 562 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: But it really is the idea of just like taking 563 00:27:27,639 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 2: it one chunk at a time, figure out what that 564 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 2: first step is with this project that you've got your 565 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,479 Speaker 2: mind set on, and what's the very first small step 566 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: that you can take to get started on that. And 567 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: as for the shame spiral and the self criticism, you're 568 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,999 Speaker 2: absolutely right that this is probably not helping you. So 569 00:27:44,159 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 2: in that case, i'd actually recommend you check back in 570 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 2: Without Inner Critic episode all about self criticism to find 571 00:27:50,679 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 2: out some ways to combat that critical inner voice. 572 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: You've got this Eve, let us know how you go 573 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: with breaking up at it. Anastasia, can you summarize all 574 00:28:02,159 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: of the latest takeaways we got from this episode sure can. 575 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: First of all, procrastination is a normal, natural, common behavior 576 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 2: that everyone does. Second, some people might fall into the 577 00:28:13,679 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 2: category of chronic procrastinators if they find themselves doing it 578 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,999 Speaker 2: too much and in excess. Third, starting is the best 579 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 2: way to overcome procrastination, So find the smallest first step 580 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: you can possibly do and build from there. And then, lastly, 581 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: remember to hold compassion for yourself if you do find 582 00:28:33,679 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 2: yourself falling into the procrastination trap. 583 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there are 584 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: a few ways to get in contact with us, links 585 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:42,999 Speaker 1: through in the show notes. 586 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 587 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas that we 588 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: present here should always take into account your personal medical history. 589 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: On next week's episode, we're going to be talking about 590 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: different ways to grieve, what's healthy and what's not. Tune 591 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:01,479 Speaker 1: in next week. 592 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 2: The senior producer of But Are You Happy? 593 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: Is Tarlie Blackman, Executive producer is Naima Brown, and Social 594 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: producer is Jemma Donaho. 595 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Tina Madalov. 596 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram and TikTok search at 597 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: but Are You Happy? Pod. I'm a Shani Dante and. 598 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 2: I'm doctor Anastatia Heronus. The names and stories of clients 599 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. 600 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, 601 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes 602 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: around the topics we discussed today. If you are wanting 603 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: more immediate support, you can also reach out to organizations 604 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 2: like Lifeline or Beyond Blue. 605 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time. 606 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 607 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,959 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.