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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome.

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Speaker 2: To MoMA Mia out loud. It's what women are actually

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Speaker 2: talking about on Wednesday, the thirty first of July, third

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Speaker 2: first of I'm not going to do that. It's boring.

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Speaker 3: I'm Holly way right, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 3: Can you please leave in the bit where Holly just

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Speaker 3: realized her thought was boring, I think that's a bit

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Speaker 3: of bts. Is every time we see the date, we

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Speaker 3: should go, oh.

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Speaker 4: I'm already stop it, Holly, Like every time you see

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Speaker 4: a child, it's grown so much. When I saw you

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Speaker 4: this hard, gosh, the year's flying.

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Speaker 2: It's blown anyway, Okay, moving off on the show today,

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Speaker 2: Hey Boomer. Olympic vibes today are settling on the bottoms

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Speaker 2: of beach volleyballers and how much of them we can see,

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Speaker 2: and on the question of whether we've really stopped valuing

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Speaker 2: soldiering on Also, we're unpacking the unexpected tale of a

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Speaker 2: woman who wants to charge another woman for hosting her

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Speaker 2: kid for a playdate. And is hiring a professional bridesmaid

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Speaker 2: sad as Hell or a feminist act, but first Mia Friedman.

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Speaker 1: In case you missed it.

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Speaker 4: In news from Paris, the Americans have their own version

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Speaker 4: of girl math for tallying Olympic medals and it's working

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Speaker 4: very well for them, but the Internet in other countries.

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Speaker 1: Is not happy.

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Speaker 4: The current Paris Olympic Game medal tally stands with Japan

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Speaker 4: leading the gold, which is unexpected.

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Speaker 1: Did Japan usually win?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they usually everything changes in week two because then

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Speaker 4: it's track and field, right, So Australia often goes well

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Speaker 4: in week one because it's swimming and we're like, look

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Speaker 4: at us punching so far above our way. So at

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Speaker 4: the moment, it's Japan, followed by China, and guess who's

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Speaker 4: third Australia. Australia, which is pretty impressive, and the United

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Speaker 4: States is down at number six.

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Speaker 1: Must be after France and South Korea had for them.

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Speaker 1: But if you look at the way that the.

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Speaker 4: New York Times is keeping track, America is on top,

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Speaker 4: coming fast because the US Italian total.

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Speaker 1: Medals as opposed to gold gold, gold, Okay, because they

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Speaker 1: which feel convenient for them.

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Speaker 3: The same thing at a recent swimming championship and the

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Speaker 3: Australians got very annoyed. I respect and appreciate what they

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Speaker 3: are doing working the numbers. They're working the numbers and

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Speaker 3: what the US does, which I love, and they did

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Speaker 3: this during the Tokyo Olympics, is that they actually switch

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Speaker 3: how they count the medals based on where America will

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Speaker 3: sit on the tally. So last time they counted it

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Speaker 3: like that because they were on top, but then they

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Speaker 3: won the other way and they went back to that

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Speaker 3: at the end. So they're just like, we'll just fiddle

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Speaker 3: with the numbers so that we're always on top.

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Speaker 2: Because like it, like it total metal, because I'm a

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Speaker 2: snowflake and I believe that all medals are like you've

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Speaker 2: tried really hard.

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Speaker 1: Well, so sweet.

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Speaker 4: The total medals is United States on the top, France, China, Japan, Britain,

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Speaker 4: Australia then is number I can't count, but like seven.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, I like it better when we're higher.

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Speaker 3: Every country in the world as well as like you know,

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Speaker 3: the Olympic, they don't have an official way of doing it,

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Speaker 3: so the US have founded a loophole, but every single

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Speaker 3: country in the world counts it. One way is by

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Speaker 3: basically how many.

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Speaker 4: Gold you know how Holly would like to count by

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Speaker 4: how hard people try.

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Speaker 2: I would. That's exactly how I rate my kids' school reports.

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Speaker 2: They get all the credit for the effort score. That's

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Speaker 2: who I am.

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Speaker 1: Good way they go for possibly.

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Speaker 2: Why I'm not an Olympian one of the many, many

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Speaker 2: reasons why I'm not an Olympian. Just a disclaimer out

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Speaker 2: louders with our Olympic vibes segments that I'm sure we're

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Speaker 2: going to do a few times over the next couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks.

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Speaker 1: We're not sports reporters.

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Speaker 2: And this is not the place to come if you

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Speaker 2: want a rundown of the metal tally or even you know,

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Speaker 2: lots of results about all our brilliant Australian athletes. That's

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Speaker 2: not what we're here for.

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Speaker 1: We're here for vibes and feelings.

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Speaker 2: We're here for vibes and feelings, and I hope it

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Speaker 2: goes without saying that we don't know anything so we'll

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Speaker 2: probably get the terminology wrong and like you on the

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Speaker 2: couch at home, we're just going with our vibes. We

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Speaker 2: obviously support all the Olympians with one things, and the

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Speaker 2: ones who haven't they're your favorites the way they're my favorites.

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Speaker 2: I like the tryers.

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Speaker 1: I like the ones with the metals.

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Speaker 2: I'm here for the tryers. Oh good vibes, great vibe,

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Speaker 2: what a great time.

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Speaker 3: We have more Olympic vibes to bring. We had so

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Speaker 3: many things we're desperate to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: Still can't work out how to watch it, but we

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Speaker 1: can discuss that later.

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Speaker 3: I have and I'm going to show.

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Speaker 2: We got massively called boomers for that. Today we were

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Speaker 2: in our meeting. We brought back that we're finding it

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Speaker 2: hard to watch it. I'm like, I don't know. I

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Speaker 2: haven't seen the single gymnastic event. I can't find it anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Our ahead of content Lisa just looked at us and said,

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Speaker 2: you know, the whole editorial team is laughing at you.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what it feels like to me?

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Speaker 4: It feels like news eve where you're sure that there's

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Speaker 4: a better party going on somewhere, you just don't know where,

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Speaker 4: and you're always at the wrong party.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like I'm always watching the wrong No,

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Speaker 1: I understand. Anyway, back to vibes.

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Speaker 3: Look, I want to talk about this headline I saw

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Speaker 3: this morning is competing with a raptured ligament an active bravery?

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Speaker 3: Is it something we should celebrate or something we should critique.

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Speaker 3: So the headline I saw this morning was on news

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Speaker 3: dot com and it read Mexican gymnast Natalia Escalera's incredible

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Speaker 3: active bravery at Paras Olympics, and it went on to

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Speaker 3: report how she had a raptured ligament in her foot

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Speaker 3: but still competed in the uneven bars. Afterwards, she broke

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Speaker 3: down in tears of pain and her coach needed to

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Speaker 3: carry her to a nearby chair. The Mexican Olympic Committee

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Speaker 3: praised her on their social media pages. They posted applause

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Speaker 3: for Natalia Escalera despite having a tear, the Mexican makes

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Speaker 3: her presentation on the uneven bars of the all around.

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Speaker 3: The reason I find this interesting is that I watched

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Speaker 3: the Simone Bios documentary over the weekend which looked back

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Speaker 3: on gymnasts who had competed with sprained ankles or torn ligaments.

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Speaker 3: Their pain was visible on their faces, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of commons in that documentary said, gymnastics is changing. This

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Speaker 3: takes a toll. We're putting the humanity of our athletes. First.

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Speaker 3: Biles famously pulled out of the Tokyo Olympics, but then

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Speaker 3: even Biles in this Olympics, she has a torn calf

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Speaker 3: ligament and she secured a gold medal overnight. What do

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Speaker 3: we think? Is this bravery or is there something more

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Speaker 3: sinister at play?

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Speaker 4: This is how we all become experts while we're watching TV,

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Speaker 4: right every four years. When you said that and you

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Speaker 4: said the torn ligament in her foot, I was like ow.

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Speaker 4: But then when you said on even bars, I'm like, well,

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Speaker 4: hang on a second, you don't that's not a weight

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Speaker 4: beun How does she land exercise except for the land

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Speaker 4: that part, which is awkward. You're right, but like most

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Speaker 4: of it, it's not like a floor routine or a

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Speaker 4: beam or even a vault where you've got to like run.

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Speaker 3: So her medical team said she couldn't compete in the

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Speaker 3: others and they did clear her for this, but there

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Speaker 3: was still controversy because she has to land.

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Speaker 4: And you know that when she does land, hopefully on

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Speaker 4: two feet, it's not going to be good for whatever

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Speaker 4: the injury is.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't good looking at her face.

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Speaker 1: By then, her routine's pretty finished. So I would.

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Speaker 4: Say these are athletes with free will, right, so are

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Speaker 4: they well hopefully, I.

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Speaker 1: Know they feel a lot of pressure.

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Speaker 4: But imagine training something all your life and would you

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Speaker 4: be like I could sit it out or I could

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Speaker 4: just try. Well, but it's the way that sounds like

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Speaker 4: I'm criticizing Simone Bars and I'm not, because Simone Bars

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Speaker 4: knew that she could die, like in that vole, if

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Speaker 4: you've got the twisties and you lose where you are, Like,

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Speaker 4: vaulting is incredibly dangerous. I mean all gymnastics is, but

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Speaker 4: vaulting particularly, and she knew that she.

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Speaker 1: Could risk her life if she were to do that.

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Speaker 2: This is typical of all sport. Right. You will see

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Speaker 2: players playing their rugby league grum final with a broken jaw.

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Speaker 2: You will see them being sent off because they've got

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Speaker 2: a gash in their head and begging to be sent

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Speaker 2: back on. And it is seen as weak to let

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Speaker 2: your team down and inverted because you've had a bit

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Speaker 2: of a k nook. Right, So this is very common

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Speaker 2: in all sports. These gymnasts are representing themselves but also

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Speaker 2: their countries. As you've said, they have trained so hard

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Speaker 2: for years and years and years, so everything is about

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Speaker 2: this moment and if you injure yourself in that moment

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Speaker 2: and then you're like, the pressure to go on is enormous.

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Speaker 1: I think the pressure do you mean external and internal pressure?

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Speaker 2: So I think one of the reasons why what Siman

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Speaker 2: Biles did was so extraordinary is it was seen in

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Speaker 2: some quarters as letting the country down, Like I don't

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Speaker 2: think that, but you know, it was seen as we

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Speaker 2: know now that the US aren't going to do as

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Speaker 2: well or will they do as well without her? She

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Speaker 2: was letting the country down, and that pressure can't be underestimated.

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Speaker 2: But resilience is something that athletes know a lot about.

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Speaker 2: We bandy around the world resilience all the time as

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Speaker 2: a good thing. Right, We're trying to make our children

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Speaker 2: more resilient. We're trying to make ourselves more resilient. We've

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Speaker 2: got it very high up our value medal table. It's

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Speaker 2: winning gold, right, it's top of the leader. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: so athletes know about resilience in a way that lots

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Speaker 2: of us don't because nearly everything they do, Like if

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Speaker 2: you've trained for a fun run, which I have, you'll

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Speaker 2: do your knee and then you have to decide am

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Speaker 2: I going to sit out now because I've done my

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Speaker 2: knee when I've been training for three months, or am

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Speaker 2: I going to strap it up and pump the neurofen?

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Speaker 2: You know, run that thing? What did you do? I ran,

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Speaker 2: I pumped the neurofen. Run that thing? Hurt my knee.

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Speaker 2: Me and Simone Biles have a great deal in common.

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Speaker 2: I think that we have to give them the credit

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Speaker 2: and the autonomy to know whether or not they want

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Speaker 2: to do it.

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Speaker 3: I agree, I reckon that the added layer, of course,

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Speaker 3: is pressure from coaches, pressure from.

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Speaker 2: Sponsors, not necessarily in this context, but generally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's also I've heard people talk about the

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Speaker 3: money thing. It's like a nation has invested an enormous

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Speaker 3: amount in an athlete, and if they choose the question

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Speaker 3: of choice is interesting because agency we have to take

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Speaker 3: into account the amount of pressure that they feel.

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Speaker 4: I get why you have medical team, Like you mentioned

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Speaker 4: the Mexican gym Maston. Her medical team cleared her for

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Speaker 4: this but said she couldn't. So it almost needs to

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Speaker 4: be taken out of your hands, right, Yeah, to an extent,

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Speaker 4: because you're not necessarily the best judge of what you're

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Speaker 4: capable of.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but most athletes, and this is why I find

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Speaker 3: watching sports so interesting are in a lot of pain

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Speaker 3: doing what they're doing for us, So I always think of.

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Speaker 1: Ratha doing it for us, though, good question.

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Speaker 3: Grafe on Theadal, for example, plays in chronic pain and

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Speaker 3: has for most of his career. He's got tendinitis, he's

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Speaker 3: got like these foot conditions with ligaments and everything.

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Speaker 1: And so you're saying that's altruism.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm just saying that

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Speaker 3: how much pain you are willing to grit your teeth

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Speaker 3: and bear is obviously a choice for you to make.

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Speaker 3: But I struggle with our framing of it as bravery.

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Speaker 3: I thought it was an interesting choice for news and

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Speaker 3: for the Mexican Olympic Committee and for other people watching

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Speaker 3: to rain this person is brave because I think it

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Speaker 3: says a lot about what we value and a lot

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Speaker 3: about us culturally, which.

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Speaker 1: Is that so bravery is suffering.

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Speaker 3: Bravery is suffering. And that is why when Simone Biles

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Speaker 3: pulled out, there was this pushback, because it was this

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Speaker 3: sense of like, even in an Australian Olympian in the

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Speaker 3: last twenty four hours is pulled out because she has

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Speaker 3: COVID and she can't do the fifteen hundred meters and

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Speaker 3: I thought, I wonder how it feels if you're an

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Speaker 3: athlete who is injured, who is sick, and has gone

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Speaker 3: I can't do this, and then you see that framed

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Speaker 3: as bravery, if that compounds your own sense of letting

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Speaker 3: the team down.

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Speaker 2: It's also interesting because just bringing this back to the

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Speaker 2: Dallas cowboy cheery, as everything does as relate the jump splits,

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Speaker 2: meant that they all went on to have hit well,

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Speaker 2: not all, but many of them went on to have

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Speaker 2: serious health implications and hip operations. We know that American

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Speaker 2: footballers have a very high rate of brain injury. It's

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Speaker 2: something that is being looked into, and it's put a

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Speaker 2: sort of cloud over the sport. Boxing's a same. Various

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Speaker 2: forms of football are the same. Is that being your

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Speaker 2: all for your team and country, which as Jesse is

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Speaker 2: possibly framing as altruism, will come at a significant personal

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Speaker 2: cost to you health wise, possibly ongoing? And again, who

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Speaker 2: are you paying that for? Is that like the mark

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Speaker 2: of a hero, like a wounded warrior, or is that

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Speaker 2: like a lacks duty of care on the side of

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Speaker 2: the organization that you're playing for.

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Speaker 4: Well, I want to change gears and talk about some

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Speaker 4: other vibes, and that is volleyball, and also some bottoms

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Speaker 4: and some crotches.

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Speaker 3: Is that all you can find to watch? Because you

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Speaker 3: don't know what you're meant to be watching, so you

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Speaker 3: just my TV isn't going anywhere else.

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Speaker 4: Gymnastic last night. But I only like to watch the

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Speaker 4: women's gymnastics. I don't really like to watch the men's gymnastics.

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Speaker 4: Although the guy on the pummel horse, who looks like

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Speaker 4: Clark Kenton, has a little snooze and then just whips

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Speaker 4: his glasses off, gets up, does the pummel.

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Speaker 1: He's a bit of an Internet here right now. Anyway.

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Speaker 4: Olympic camera operators have been issued of formal warning over

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Speaker 4: the way they film female athletes this week, as the

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Speaker 4: Olympic Broadcasting Service boss admits stereotypes and sexism remain now.

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Speaker 4: The head of the Olympic Broadcasting Services has actually called

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Speaker 4: for an update in its guidelines for camera operators who

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Speaker 4: are mostly men, to combat these stereotypes, and he's told

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Speaker 4: reporters in Paris, unfortunately, in some events, the women are

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Speaker 4: still being filmed in a way that you can identify

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Speaker 4: that stereotypes and sexism remain even from the way in

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Speaker 4: which some camera operators are framing differently men and women athletes.

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Speaker 4: Women athletes are not there because they are more attractive

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Speaker 4: or sexy or whatever. They are there because they are

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Speaker 4: elite athletes. Now, I happen to be watching the volleyball

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Speaker 4: beach volleyball last night, as I said, and I was

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Speaker 4: really struck by a couple of things, two of which

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Speaker 4: I want to unpack with you all. The first is

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Speaker 4: the camera angles, because there's a lot of you know,

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Speaker 4: when you're preparing to take a shot whatever it's called, receiver,

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Speaker 4: someone serving to you, you do a bit of a squat,

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Speaker 4: like you sort of squat, you lean over on your horn.

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Speaker 4: And because some of the beach volleyball uniforms I was

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Speaker 4: watching last night, the Italians versus the Egyptians, and I'll

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Speaker 4: get to the uniforms in a second, but there are

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Speaker 4: some very close up shots of the bums of Do.

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Speaker 2: You think they're breaking these regulations?

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Speaker 4: Yes, I think they might be, although I suppose they

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Speaker 4: could pull back, like they don't have to go on

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Speaker 4: a close up. So what they're talking about is close

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Speaker 4: ups of female athletes body parts, so you could do

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Speaker 4: a more respectful I don't think you have to go

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Speaker 4: like right up the bum to capture what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I think it is. It did feel fairly gratuitous.

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Speaker 4: But what I wanted to actually talk about was the

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Speaker 4: uniforms because in this match it was so interesting, and

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Speaker 4: of course the Olympics, and we're talking about what women

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Speaker 4: are wearing. We're not talking about what any men are wearing.

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Speaker 4: But such is life.

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Speaker 1: The Egyptian beach.

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Speaker 4: Volleyball players wearing black leggings, they were covered ankle to wrist,

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Speaker 4: and they also had huebs on, and then they had

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Speaker 4: loose t shirts on over their leggings and long sleeve tops.

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Speaker 4: And then the Italian players had teeny little low cut,

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Speaker 4: low rise bikini bottoms and little.

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Speaker 1: Tops with very sort of cutout in the back. And

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Speaker 1: I just thought, isn't that interesting.

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Speaker 4: There's a whole lot of conversations and a whole lot

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Speaker 4: of subtext here about women's choices, women's bodies, sport, what

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Speaker 4: it all means.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to unpack it.

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Speaker 2: Well, beach volleyball. It's interesting because playing beach volleyball in

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Speaker 2: a bikini is true to the origins of the sport,

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Speaker 2: right it was invented that game on the beaches of Hawaii,

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Speaker 2: southern California, Rio like, it's a game you play on

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Speaker 2: a beach in your swimmers and then you get in

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Speaker 2: the ocean. Men typically play it topless. Right that the Olympics.

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Speaker 2: Men aren't allowed to be topless. That's why they're wearing

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Speaker 2: board shorts and a vest right, and women traditionally have

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Speaker 2: still basically been wearing bikinis two pieces. In twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: they changed that rule because obviously the bikini issue was

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Speaker 2: a to a lot of people playing that sport religious reasons,

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Speaker 2: social reasons, or I just don't want to be in

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Speaker 2: my bikini there. And so now there's a choice. And

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Speaker 2: you will see if you watch a lot of beach

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Speaker 2: volleyball that some nations are wearing leggings. You're allowed to

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Speaker 2: wear leggings, and so they'll wear little crop tops and leggings.

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Speaker 2: And there has been pushback from a lot of gross

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Speaker 2: sexist men who are like, oh, I came to the

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Speaker 2: beach volleyball to see.

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Speaker 4: Us on that isn't enough ass quite a lot of

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Speaker 4: us on my TV.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. But then on the other hand, now

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Speaker 2: that it's a choice, there's a bit of pressure on

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Speaker 2: the athletes who want to still wear their bikinis, and

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Speaker 2: you'll see an enormous amount of variety in the cut

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Speaker 2: of the briefs and all those things from nation to nation.

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Speaker 2: But there is a choice, right. I did a bit

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Speaker 2: of a deep dive into why they have to be

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Speaker 2: like that. A lot of the athletes say, if you're

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Speaker 2: wearing a two piece, you get a lot of sand. Right,

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Speaker 2: so you're diving, as you know, he meats volleyball, You're

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Speaker 2: diving into the sand all the time, it gets down

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Speaker 2: your top. It's deeply uncomfortable, all of that stuff. So

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Speaker 2: you basically want as little they would say, as little

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Speaker 2: as possible between you. And so that's what.

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Speaker 4: Because you would say, why do they need to wear

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Speaker 4: a bikini? Why wouldn't they wear a one piece like

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Speaker 4: the swimmers do, And that's the reason I hadn't thought

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Speaker 4: of that, And so from getting distrapped in so if

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Speaker 4: you were in a one piece, you do a dive,

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Speaker 4: suddenly you've got half a beach down there. Imagine trying

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Speaker 4: to get that out.

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Speaker 3: But I was reading that up until very recently, even

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Speaker 3: the bikini bottoms that you wore could not be more

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Speaker 3: than seven centimeters on the sides. You look at that

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Speaker 3: role and you go and it isn't about sand because

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Speaker 3: even gymnastics, and this is all around the world, you

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Speaker 3: get up to one point deduction if you've got a

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Speaker 3: brass strap or you've got your undie showing underneath. And

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Speaker 3: you'll remember that in the Tokyo Olympics, the German gymnasts

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Speaker 3: wore full long leer tides that went down to their

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Speaker 3: ankles and they were making a statement which was we

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Speaker 3: feel really objectified. We see a lot of women drop

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Speaker 3: out of the sport because they don't want to wear

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Speaker 3: these outfits, and we can perform just as well with

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Speaker 3: this on. But I must say there's been a lot

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Speaker 3: of discussion about the discussion about bodies, right yes, from

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Speaker 3: swimming to beach volleyball to gymnastics. Whether or not it's

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Speaker 3: ever okay to remark on a woman's body.

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Speaker 4: Well I did, and my daughter was so poored she

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Speaker 4: left the room. Yeah, because I slay you over in

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Speaker 4: bex But I wasn't being mean. I was just like

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Speaker 4: marveling at these extraordinary bodies and I was wondering out loud,

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Speaker 4: as I do because I don't have a lot of

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Speaker 4: inside thoughts. Inside my head thoughts. The hair removal is

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Speaker 4: quite something to behold. I mean that whoever's the hair

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Speaker 4: removal is like, that's amazing. And my daughter is just like,

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Speaker 4: she wasn't happy, No, she wasn't.

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Speaker 3: What's amazing, Like the hair removal.

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Speaker 1: It was just such a great point.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 3: Is also that there's not an ingrown hair. That's what

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Speaker 3: I'm amazed at is I want.

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Speaker 1: To go I think laser.

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Speaker 2: I just make the point that these athletes are the

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Speaker 2: most prepared people in the world. Do you think they're

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Speaker 2: going to have an ingrown hair distracting from them?

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Speaker 4: To me remarking on their bodies, like their bodies are

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Speaker 4: strawdinary when you see them in the air, and like

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Speaker 4: the muscles and the I find that in itself really interesting.

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Speaker 2: But that's not what a lot of people are commenting on, right. So,

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things that's interesting when we

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Speaker 2: talk about sexualizing athletes is who we choose to talk

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Speaker 2: about being sexualized Because athletes their instrument is their body.

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Speaker 2: And when track and field starts happening next week, there

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Speaker 2: are always like a glamour portion of track and field, right,

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Speaker 2: I was seeing it today. You know, there's a very

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Speaker 2: very glamorous sprinter from Poland or somewhere right, who's a

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Speaker 2: model and all these things, and the world will go

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Speaker 2: mad for her for five days. They don't necessarily about swimmers,

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Speaker 2: for example, swimmers bodies because in our very narrow cultural

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Speaker 2: ideas when I say our, I guess I mean dominant

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Speaker 2: culture ideas of what a sexy body is, that's not

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Speaker 2: necessarily a female swimmer's body, right, That is a weapon

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Speaker 2: in a different way, Simone Biles. There isn't a lot

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Speaker 2: of talk about her being sexualized because she is an

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Speaker 2: absolute weapon too, But that doesn't fit some kind of

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Speaker 2: narrow view of like is she tall with long legs

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Speaker 2: and does she have boob in a waiste? As soon

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Speaker 2: as an athlete looks like what we consider to be

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Speaker 2: a ideal, like a feminine ideal, we start bitching about

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Speaker 2: them being sexualized.

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Speaker 4: So wait, my commentary on bodies is not about sexualization

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Speaker 4: at all. It's pure aesthetics and the and the wondery

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Speaker 4: of the human form.

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Speaker 2: And you're not going to put some clothes. I was

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Speaker 2: getting that vibe.

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Speaker 1: I found that.

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Speaker 4: Interesting, and I'm so glad you've explained a lot of

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Speaker 4: those things to me today. I was more thinking, isn't

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Speaker 4: it interesting how comfortable they are in their bodies that

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Speaker 4: they're fine with that. I think now with the sand,

436
00:20:46,167 --> 00:20:49,127
Speaker 4: it makes more sense that you want your costume to be.

437
00:20:49,127 --> 00:20:52,447
Speaker 1: As tight and as small as possible.

438
00:20:52,447 --> 00:20:54,807
Speaker 4: Well, definitely as tight, because also you wouldn't get sandstuck

439
00:20:54,807 --> 00:20:57,367
Speaker 4: if you're wearing like a neck to knee situation, you

440
00:20:57,407 --> 00:20:58,007
Speaker 4: wouldn't get so.

441
00:20:59,847 --> 00:21:02,207
Speaker 3: If you've it's professional beach volleyballs.

442
00:21:01,727 --> 00:21:03,807
Speaker 1: And the men are getting sand stuck in their shorts,

443
00:21:03,807 --> 00:21:04,327
Speaker 1: they're fine.

444
00:21:04,487 --> 00:21:06,607
Speaker 2: It is interesting why the men aren't allowed to be topless.

445
00:21:06,687 --> 00:21:08,527
Speaker 3: I reckon that that's a I need to see what

446
00:21:08,567 --> 00:21:12,287
Speaker 3: country you're from thing, like, Yeah, but it's interesting if

447
00:21:12,287 --> 00:21:14,567
Speaker 3: I'm a beach volleyballer and I've watched everyone above me

448
00:21:14,607 --> 00:21:19,927
Speaker 3: wear a certain uniform. Uniform is so critical to psychology

449
00:21:20,007 --> 00:21:23,807
Speaker 3: in terms of performance, like we feel something different depending

450
00:21:23,847 --> 00:21:25,767
Speaker 3: on what we've put on. So I just reckon that,

451
00:21:26,207 --> 00:21:28,247
Speaker 3: whoever you are, whatever sport you're doing, you've just got

452
00:21:28,247 --> 00:21:32,007
Speaker 3: to wear something that makes you perform as well as

453
00:21:32,007 --> 00:21:36,047
Speaker 3: you can. I agree that watching gymnastics, in particular, marveling

454
00:21:36,087 --> 00:21:38,447
Speaker 3: at the strength and what that level of training does

455
00:21:38,487 --> 00:21:41,207
Speaker 3: to the human body is amazing for any athlete, like

456
00:21:41,247 --> 00:21:44,367
Speaker 3: looking at men's swimmers, female swimmers, whatever. I love the

457
00:21:44,487 --> 00:21:47,887
Speaker 3: visual element of that. But it's worth noting that the

458
00:21:47,927 --> 00:21:51,607
Speaker 3: Matildas dress exactly like the male soccer players, and in

459
00:21:51,727 --> 00:21:54,807
Speaker 3: terms of broadcasting, because the argument will be will people

460
00:21:54,847 --> 00:21:57,407
Speaker 3: watch the beach volleyball because they lack what they see,

461
00:21:57,487 --> 00:22:00,367
Speaker 3: which is kind of what I've say talking about, Yeah,

462
00:22:00,407 --> 00:22:02,647
Speaker 3: the Matildas. We loved watching the Matildas.

463
00:22:02,687 --> 00:22:05,047
Speaker 2: This is really interesting too, because one of the reasons

464
00:22:05,047 --> 00:22:08,687
Speaker 2: why female soccer players where what the men do is

465
00:22:08,727 --> 00:22:12,167
Speaker 2: because they were never given uniforms. There's a whole world

466
00:22:12,207 --> 00:22:15,367
Speaker 2: there about how female football players have to wear male

467
00:22:15,407 --> 00:22:18,607
Speaker 2: football shorts. Until very recently, they weren't making football shorts

468
00:22:18,647 --> 00:22:21,207
Speaker 2: that worked for women's bodies, right, So that is true

469
00:22:21,247 --> 00:22:23,527
Speaker 2: to the origins of that sport. As it develops and

470
00:22:23,687 --> 00:22:27,127
Speaker 2: escalates and becomes more professional, hopefully we'll see not I

471
00:22:27,167 --> 00:22:30,007
Speaker 2: don't mean more tight flash, but what I mean is

472
00:22:30,727 --> 00:22:34,607
Speaker 2: uniforms that better support female athletes. So I think that

473
00:22:34,687 --> 00:22:37,927
Speaker 2: we bring our very particular lens to whether we think

474
00:22:37,967 --> 00:22:40,727
Speaker 2: that's all too sexy or not. We're not thinking about

475
00:22:40,767 --> 00:22:43,007
Speaker 2: the athlete, We're thinking about ourselves, you know.

476
00:22:43,407 --> 00:22:45,567
Speaker 4: I really liked actually when I was watching the volleyball

477
00:22:45,607 --> 00:22:48,247
Speaker 4: because I was like, if you're a believer in choice feminism,

478
00:22:48,567 --> 00:22:52,007
Speaker 4: there are options now. And the Australians actually wear bikini

479
00:22:52,047 --> 00:22:54,727
Speaker 4: briefs but with long sleeve rashes. I saw some of

480
00:22:54,727 --> 00:22:58,007
Speaker 4: them with long sleeves chezzies. Yeah, because that's the other thing.

481
00:22:58,167 --> 00:23:01,447
Speaker 4: Surely it's not very sun safe if you're not slip

482
00:23:01,487 --> 00:23:04,167
Speaker 4: slopping and slapping, or if you're not slapping. I thought

483
00:23:04,167 --> 00:23:07,167
Speaker 4: it was really interesting and we will always have views

484
00:23:07,207 --> 00:23:09,647
Speaker 4: on what women should and shouldn't wear. And I don't

485
00:23:09,647 --> 00:23:12,167
Speaker 4: mean we, but like as a culture, it will always

486
00:23:12,167 --> 00:23:14,687
Speaker 4: be discussed in a way that men's outfits and men's

487
00:23:14,687 --> 00:23:16,327
Speaker 4: bodies aren't discussed.

488
00:23:16,367 --> 00:23:19,247
Speaker 2: True. But final point on that, where you started with

489
00:23:19,327 --> 00:23:23,207
Speaker 2: the camera guidelines, they've also been given camera guidelines about

490
00:23:23,207 --> 00:23:27,727
Speaker 2: the men because particularly in track and field, you see

491
00:23:27,967 --> 00:23:31,007
Speaker 2: other jiggle shots, a lot of jiggle shots, and a

492
00:23:31,047 --> 00:23:34,887
Speaker 2: lot of sprinters, male sprinters who wear those types and

493
00:23:35,007 --> 00:23:37,447
Speaker 2: they hate that. They hate the jiggle shots. So that

494
00:23:37,767 --> 00:23:40,047
Speaker 2: it's all of it. It's like, obviously it's there and

495
00:23:40,087 --> 00:23:42,047
Speaker 2: you make a choice whether you're looking at it or not.

496
00:23:42,087 --> 00:23:45,007
Speaker 2: But the camera angles are a whole different world, and

497
00:23:45,047 --> 00:23:48,407
Speaker 2: they're just being told don't stop follow.

498
00:23:48,167 --> 00:23:48,927
Speaker 1: You know, stop it.

499
00:23:49,127 --> 00:23:52,287
Speaker 3: I wonder what sport me as television will get stuck

500
00:23:52,327 --> 00:23:55,607
Speaker 3: on next and we'll have a discussion about that next episode.

501
00:23:55,647 --> 00:23:57,607
Speaker 3: She'll get very into the synchronized.

502
00:23:57,167 --> 00:23:59,607
Speaker 4: I had a lot to say about the synchronized diving.

503
00:24:00,007 --> 00:24:03,407
Speaker 4: I found that amazing, amazing, and how they went into

504
00:24:03,407 --> 00:24:06,567
Speaker 4: the water. But the men's like, the speedos didn't fall down,

505
00:24:07,047 --> 00:24:08,807
Speaker 4: So I'm like, they must be so small and so

506
00:24:08,967 --> 00:24:11,567
Speaker 4: tight because imagine hitting the water at that velocity.

507
00:24:11,927 --> 00:24:12,167
Speaker 1: Great.

508
00:24:12,567 --> 00:24:15,207
Speaker 2: Yeah, may Or, I haven't even found the diving yet.

509
00:24:15,527 --> 00:24:19,327
Speaker 1: About the diving, the diving, damn it, it's finished. Damnit.

510
00:24:26,647 --> 00:24:30,607
Speaker 2: Hell out, friends, there's a woman on the internet charging

511
00:24:30,647 --> 00:24:34,247
Speaker 2: another woman for a playdate. You might have heard about it.

512
00:24:34,567 --> 00:24:35,847
Speaker 2: Here is what happened.

513
00:24:36,327 --> 00:24:39,647
Speaker 5: Can we normalize sending the other family money for playdates?

514
00:24:40,527 --> 00:24:43,287
Speaker 5: So recently, my daughter had a friend of her and

515
00:24:43,527 --> 00:24:46,167
Speaker 5: I asked her mom for money. So after the playdate,

516
00:24:46,207 --> 00:24:47,727
Speaker 5: I text her mom and I said, thanks for letting

517
00:24:47,767 --> 00:24:50,087
Speaker 5: Jamie play today, Please help out with your share of

518
00:24:50,127 --> 00:24:53,487
Speaker 5: the expenses for the playdate, totaling fifteen dollars via vemo.

519
00:24:53,727 --> 00:24:56,327
Speaker 5: Let's do it again. Sometime because I can't keep doing

520
00:24:56,327 --> 00:24:59,247
Speaker 5: these playdates if it's so expensive. And she said expenses,

521
00:24:59,527 --> 00:25:01,647
Speaker 5: and I said, yeah, she used supplies and food while

522
00:25:01,687 --> 00:25:03,447
Speaker 5: she was here. In this way, we can do this

523
00:25:03,527 --> 00:25:07,087
Speaker 5: more often without a monetary obligation on just one party. Right,

524
00:25:07,527 --> 00:25:10,767
Speaker 5: makes sense. No, she didn't say much, but she did

525
00:25:10,807 --> 00:25:13,327
Speaker 5: say what supplies, and of course I wrote them down.

526
00:25:13,727 --> 00:25:16,527
Speaker 5: There was chalk, apple, sauce, fruit, she sat on the couch,

527
00:25:16,607 --> 00:25:19,287
Speaker 5: that's where, and tear. She actually broke a toy. She

528
00:25:19,327 --> 00:25:21,367
Speaker 5: had three juice boxes, she went to the bathroom, she

529
00:25:21,407 --> 00:25:24,407
Speaker 5: had yogurt. Then she actually sent the money and I

530
00:25:24,447 --> 00:25:26,727
Speaker 5: sent her a message thanking her for it. Of course

531
00:25:26,927 --> 00:25:28,607
Speaker 5: she didn't say anything else, but I said, you know,

532
00:25:28,647 --> 00:25:30,847
Speaker 5: this will make it easier for us to do more

533
00:25:30,847 --> 00:25:33,967
Speaker 5: playdates in the future. So what do you guys think now?

534
00:25:34,127 --> 00:25:38,127
Speaker 2: That woman on TikTok is called Shane Nanigan's eighty seven

535
00:25:38,887 --> 00:25:42,647
Speaker 2: and that video got four point one million views and

536
00:25:42,687 --> 00:25:45,287
Speaker 2: a storm of comments and shares, which is not that

537
00:25:45,367 --> 00:25:49,007
Speaker 2: surprising really, because playdate politics are wild, But who knew

538
00:25:49,567 --> 00:25:52,767
Speaker 2: they were that wild? Maya Have you ever heard of

539
00:25:52,847 --> 00:25:54,487
Speaker 2: someone charging for a playdate?

540
00:25:54,887 --> 00:25:58,167
Speaker 4: I haven't, but I've noticed that playdates. My kids are

541
00:25:58,207 --> 00:26:00,367
Speaker 4: too old for them now, but I noticed that between

542
00:26:00,367 --> 00:26:03,407
Speaker 4: my oldest and my youngest having playdates, it seemed to

543
00:26:03,527 --> 00:26:07,967
Speaker 4: change in that suddenly some of the kids their moms

544
00:26:07,967 --> 00:26:11,127
Speaker 4: would send over snacks the play date, like muffins or

545
00:26:11,407 --> 00:26:15,047
Speaker 4: you know, chocolates or whatever, occasionally like a hostess.

546
00:26:14,807 --> 00:26:18,087
Speaker 1: Gift, which I really look I liked.

547
00:26:17,927 --> 00:26:20,367
Speaker 4: Eating this stuff and I appreciated it because I never

548
00:26:20,367 --> 00:26:22,927
Speaker 4: had any food to my house, but I was very

549
00:26:22,967 --> 00:26:27,527
Speaker 4: alarmed at the potential escalation of what was required, because

550
00:26:27,567 --> 00:26:30,727
Speaker 4: to me, a playdate should be about offloading your child

551
00:26:30,967 --> 00:26:32,807
Speaker 4: for a period of time, and then there are things

552
00:26:32,847 --> 00:26:35,847
Speaker 4: that are understood, like you offload them, but then you

553
00:26:35,887 --> 00:26:37,687
Speaker 4: have to have that child back to your place.

554
00:26:37,967 --> 00:26:39,407
Speaker 1: There are politics involved.

555
00:26:39,447 --> 00:26:41,807
Speaker 3: I think recently I've made a rule for myself in

556
00:26:41,847 --> 00:26:44,327
Speaker 3: line with my Kindness word of the year. And when

557
00:26:44,327 --> 00:26:46,447
Speaker 3: I say recently, I mean in the last week that

558
00:26:46,647 --> 00:26:48,687
Speaker 3: I must if I go to someone's house, I have

559
00:26:48,767 --> 00:26:51,927
Speaker 3: to bring something, which sounds really basic, but it's just

560
00:26:52,087 --> 00:26:55,047
Speaker 3: something I haven't really been doing. You know, I'd just

561
00:26:55,207 --> 00:26:57,767
Speaker 3: like a nice dessert or like some food or wine

562
00:26:57,927 --> 00:26:58,807
Speaker 3: or something like that.

563
00:26:58,887 --> 00:27:01,727
Speaker 4: Well, then also, if you're taking someone else's child, somewhere,

564
00:27:01,767 --> 00:27:03,727
Speaker 4: like to a trampoline part or to a movie.

565
00:27:03,847 --> 00:27:05,767
Speaker 1: Yeah, that can be expensive.

566
00:27:05,447 --> 00:27:05,967
Speaker 2: What I would do?

567
00:27:06,047 --> 00:27:07,647
Speaker 3: So why your kidd have money on them?

568
00:27:07,727 --> 00:27:09,927
Speaker 2: Right? Well, it depends how old they are, right. So

569
00:27:10,207 --> 00:27:12,607
Speaker 2: the thing about playdates is when your kids are really little,

570
00:27:12,607 --> 00:27:14,327
Speaker 2: and it sounds like these ones are with the apple

571
00:27:14,367 --> 00:27:17,327
Speaker 2: sauce and the chalk and stuff, it's hard work hosting

572
00:27:17,447 --> 00:27:19,487
Speaker 2: other kids at your house. So it's very much a

573
00:27:19,527 --> 00:27:22,687
Speaker 2: reciprocal agreement. When they get older and the kids can

574
00:27:22,807 --> 00:27:25,607
Speaker 2: entertain themselves more, it actually makes parenting easier to have

575
00:27:25,647 --> 00:27:28,007
Speaker 2: two kids over and they can all play together whatever.

576
00:27:28,087 --> 00:27:31,527
Speaker 2: But in those hard playdate years, I think it's a

577
00:27:31,607 --> 00:27:33,807
Speaker 2: nice gesture to send things and all the rest of it,

578
00:27:33,847 --> 00:27:36,647
Speaker 2: But I can't say I've ever come across it anyway.

579
00:27:37,047 --> 00:27:40,527
Speaker 2: What happened next was our friend Shane Nan as I'm

580
00:27:40,567 --> 00:27:44,647
Speaker 2: going to call her, posted another video, this time explaining

581
00:27:44,767 --> 00:27:50,047
Speaker 2: that the playdate video was a perfect example of rage bait. Now,

582
00:27:50,247 --> 00:27:53,767
Speaker 2: rage bait is when you create content that purposefully in

583
00:27:53,967 --> 00:27:57,207
Speaker 2: rages or shocks people so that they will interact with

584
00:27:57,287 --> 00:28:00,407
Speaker 2: it. It causes people to think something is real when it's not.

585
00:28:00,927 --> 00:28:04,607
Speaker 2: So she made up this story to gain followers, even

586
00:28:04,687 --> 00:28:07,207
Speaker 2: ones who thought she was crazy or annoying. And then

587
00:28:07,247 --> 00:28:09,967
Speaker 2: she actually also did it to make a bit of

588
00:28:10,007 --> 00:28:13,087
Speaker 2: money because she created a payment account for that imaginary

589
00:28:13,127 --> 00:28:16,407
Speaker 2: mom who supposedly gave her money. And some people were

590
00:28:16,407 --> 00:28:19,327
Speaker 2: so incensed by the idea of Shane Nan charging her

591
00:28:19,607 --> 00:28:23,087
Speaker 2: that they sent the imaginary mom money to compensate.

592
00:28:23,407 --> 00:28:24,367
Speaker 1: Isn't that fraudulent?

593
00:28:24,487 --> 00:28:27,887
Speaker 2: Here's Shane Nan explaining how she uses it.

594
00:28:28,567 --> 00:28:32,407
Speaker 5: He that I charged fifteen dollars for the playdate. So

595
00:28:32,607 --> 00:28:38,127
Speaker 5: many people are sending her money. What if? And I'm

596
00:28:38,127 --> 00:28:40,927
Speaker 5: just saying, what if that is a fake account that

597
00:28:41,047 --> 00:28:44,247
Speaker 5: I set up in a different name that goes to.

598
00:28:44,327 --> 00:28:49,087
Speaker 2: My Venmo account. I am dead.

599
00:28:49,607 --> 00:28:53,047
Speaker 5: A lesson in rage bait, A lesson in freaking rage bait. Guys,

600
00:28:53,287 --> 00:28:54,967
Speaker 5: you have to figure out how to make money off

601
00:28:55,007 --> 00:28:59,207
Speaker 5: of it, and this worked Chef's kiss. First of all,

602
00:28:59,407 --> 00:29:01,207
Speaker 5: rage bait is not a joke. A joke is meant

603
00:29:01,247 --> 00:29:04,167
Speaker 5: to make you laugh. Rage bait is more filed under

604
00:29:04,407 --> 00:29:07,127
Speaker 5: fake news, so it's there for engagement and you have

605
00:29:07,207 --> 00:29:09,247
Speaker 5: to make money off of it. Or it's not even

606
00:29:09,447 --> 00:29:11,687
Speaker 5: that she's just stupid and you're there for just the drama.

607
00:29:11,967 --> 00:29:13,727
Speaker 5: I knew I was gonna make money off TikTok, but

608
00:29:13,847 --> 00:29:17,007
Speaker 5: I didn't think that people would be sending money to

609
00:29:17,127 --> 00:29:22,767
Speaker 5: the person Melissa that they think that I charged money

610
00:29:22,807 --> 00:29:23,727
Speaker 5: for her daughter to come over.

611
00:29:24,327 --> 00:29:27,927
Speaker 2: Rage baiting engagement can be as simple as misspelling a word,

612
00:29:28,727 --> 00:29:32,927
Speaker 2: purposefully mispronouncing something which we do all the time, but

613
00:29:33,127 --> 00:29:35,487
Speaker 2: not on purpose. But maybe she was doing it there

614
00:29:35,487 --> 00:29:37,647
Speaker 2: when she kept saying niche and I was like, say niche,

615
00:29:37,807 --> 00:29:40,567
Speaker 2: but maybe she was rage baiting or even doing your

616
00:29:40,567 --> 00:29:43,407
Speaker 2: makeup wrong, all of these things and to get people

617
00:29:43,447 --> 00:29:46,767
Speaker 2: to engage, correct you and then hang around. It's marketing

618
00:29:47,087 --> 00:29:50,527
Speaker 2: and it's a very meta, very organic progression. I guess

619
00:29:50,527 --> 00:29:54,047
Speaker 2: of influencer culture. Is rage baiting fair game? Miya?

620
00:29:54,127 --> 00:29:56,407
Speaker 4: Well, it's clearly then you're click baiting, and it's about

621
00:29:56,447 --> 00:30:01,527
Speaker 4: playing the algorithm, and an algorithm that rewards anger is

622
00:30:01,567 --> 00:30:04,607
Speaker 4: absolutely designed for this. So this is people just being

623
00:30:04,767 --> 00:30:08,607
Speaker 4: opportunistic and for them it's smart business.

624
00:30:08,647 --> 00:30:11,407
Speaker 1: Is it ethical? Is it good for the world? No,

625
00:30:11,887 --> 00:30:12,807
Speaker 1: but it's good for them.

626
00:30:13,087 --> 00:30:15,087
Speaker 4: So you know, the term clickbait, which I think has

627
00:30:15,127 --> 00:30:19,047
Speaker 4: become really misused. Sometimes people use the term clickbait where

628
00:30:19,047 --> 00:30:21,047
Speaker 4: they just mean it was a good headline that made

629
00:30:21,087 --> 00:30:21,487
Speaker 4: you want.

630
00:30:21,327 --> 00:30:21,927
Speaker 1: To click on it.

631
00:30:22,127 --> 00:30:27,287
Speaker 4: What clickbait actually means is deceptive headline that makes you click,

632
00:30:27,527 --> 00:30:30,207
Speaker 4: and that click can be monetized, and actually when you

633
00:30:30,247 --> 00:30:32,687
Speaker 4: get there, it's like, haha, that's not really the truth.

634
00:30:33,087 --> 00:30:36,087
Speaker 4: And it's not just the Internet that does this. Women's magazines,

635
00:30:36,127 --> 00:30:38,007
Speaker 4: gossip magazines used to do this all the time, where

636
00:30:38,047 --> 00:30:41,047
Speaker 4: it would be like Fife boxes baby Joy and it

637
00:30:41,047 --> 00:30:42,847
Speaker 4: would be a picture of her on the cover of

638
00:30:43,207 --> 00:30:45,007
Speaker 4: Woman's Day, and then you'd open it and it would

639
00:30:45,007 --> 00:30:47,807
Speaker 4: be a picture of her walk past a baby in

640
00:30:47,847 --> 00:30:50,287
Speaker 4: the street and she waved at her co host has

641
00:30:50,327 --> 00:30:53,047
Speaker 4: had a baby, yeah, or her sister's pregnant or something yeah.

642
00:30:53,087 --> 00:30:57,207
Speaker 3: And the reason that rage baiting is new ish is

643
00:30:57,287 --> 00:31:00,967
Speaker 3: because the algorithm has changed. So the algorithm used to

644
00:31:01,127 --> 00:31:04,927
Speaker 3: reward likes, like that was how it originally started, but

645
00:31:05,207 --> 00:31:08,527
Speaker 3: now on every platform, the thing that it rewards more

646
00:31:08,567 --> 00:31:12,887
Speaker 3: than any thing is engagement through comments. So it almost

647
00:31:12,927 --> 00:31:16,167
Speaker 3: doesn't matter how many likes you've got. And the thing

648
00:31:16,207 --> 00:31:18,607
Speaker 3: that we'll get people commenting, because it's the strongest human

649
00:31:18,647 --> 00:31:23,047
Speaker 3: emotion is anger. So you rile people up and then

650
00:31:23,327 --> 00:31:27,527
Speaker 3: they all argue, but you one because it's engagement. That's

651
00:31:27,607 --> 00:31:29,807
Speaker 3: one thing, and that woman can do whatever she likes.

652
00:31:30,087 --> 00:31:33,167
Speaker 3: The other thing is the phenomenon of the media picking

653
00:31:33,207 --> 00:31:36,727
Speaker 3: it up. And this is why everyone has lost trust

654
00:31:36,967 --> 00:31:40,407
Speaker 3: in media because what they do is they pick this

655
00:31:40,567 --> 00:31:44,007
Speaker 3: up and then they put it on a TV show.

656
00:31:44,047 --> 00:31:47,207
Speaker 3: I think you should say, well, this is what we've

657
00:31:47,247 --> 00:31:50,007
Speaker 3: done exactly right. We pick it up and we throw

658
00:31:50,087 --> 00:31:51,887
Speaker 3: it in this show. Why do we throw it in

659
00:31:51,887 --> 00:31:54,847
Speaker 3: this show? Because it's content and because it serves as

660
00:31:54,847 --> 00:31:57,087
Speaker 3: the springboard for a conversation we want to have that

661
00:31:57,127 --> 00:31:59,287
Speaker 3: would be totally irrelevant if we didn't have a hook,

662
00:31:59,567 --> 00:32:01,447
Speaker 3: So you often go, oh, that needs a news hook

663
00:32:01,527 --> 00:32:01,847
Speaker 3: or whatever.

664
00:32:02,447 --> 00:32:04,327
Speaker 4: If we do it, well, let's take out loud as

665
00:32:04,367 --> 00:32:07,087
Speaker 4: behind the scenes and say, what was our thought process

666
00:32:07,087 --> 00:32:09,527
Speaker 4: in including this? Was it that we're completely cynical and

667
00:32:09,567 --> 00:32:12,807
Speaker 4: we're just trying to trick people into liss If.

668
00:32:12,647 --> 00:32:14,967
Speaker 2: We had just done that right the way that we thought,

669
00:32:14,967 --> 00:32:16,727
Speaker 2: maybe we were going to do it this morning before

670
00:32:16,767 --> 00:32:18,567
Speaker 2: it became very obviously that was fake. Although to me

671
00:32:18,687 --> 00:32:21,767
Speaker 2: it looked fake immediately. Right is we'd use it as

672
00:32:21,767 --> 00:32:24,447
Speaker 2: the hook for a discussion about playdate politics, and we'd

673
00:32:24,447 --> 00:32:26,447
Speaker 2: be like, look, people are charging for playdates now?

674
00:32:26,527 --> 00:32:29,167
Speaker 4: Yeah, with charging parts not relevant, but the politics is right.

675
00:32:29,807 --> 00:32:32,287
Speaker 2: But what we did instead when it became clear that

676
00:32:32,327 --> 00:32:34,887
Speaker 2: it was rage baiting is instead to bring people behind

677
00:32:34,927 --> 00:32:37,807
Speaker 2: the scenes of that. So that, to me is a

678
00:32:37,927 --> 00:32:42,327
Speaker 2: useful and valid conversation because particularly if you're not hiper literate,

679
00:32:42,447 --> 00:32:45,327
Speaker 2: most people are not hiper literal in social media, right

680
00:32:45,527 --> 00:32:48,127
Speaker 2: and in TikTok very very online, most people are not.

681
00:32:48,687 --> 00:32:53,007
Speaker 2: So this is explaining a phenomena to them that is helpful,

682
00:32:53,007 --> 00:32:55,247
Speaker 2: and to me that is helpful to always be able

683
00:32:55,287 --> 00:32:57,287
Speaker 2: to look at things online and go. Is that rage

684
00:32:57,367 --> 00:33:00,127
Speaker 2: bait is really useful because the reason why rage bait

685
00:33:00,207 --> 00:33:01,687
Speaker 2: is bad for the world, like it's bad for the

686
00:33:01,727 --> 00:33:03,607
Speaker 2: world in big ways, we all know that in terms

687
00:33:03,647 --> 00:33:06,487
Speaker 2: of what it's doing to our democratic systems, but it's

688
00:33:06,487 --> 00:33:09,087
Speaker 2: also bad for the world in small ways because it

689
00:33:09,327 --> 00:33:12,487
Speaker 2: makes you genuinely believe that the world is full of dickheads, right,

690
00:33:12,927 --> 00:33:15,847
Speaker 2: and of course the world has its fair share of dickheads,

691
00:33:16,047 --> 00:33:18,007
Speaker 2: But you watch videos like this and you walk around

692
00:33:18,047 --> 00:33:20,767
Speaker 2: going like, for god's sake, now people are even charging

693
00:33:20,807 --> 00:33:23,567
Speaker 2: for playdates, what's happened to everybody? Da da da da da,

694
00:33:23,607 --> 00:33:25,847
Speaker 2: When an actual fact, the world is full of very

695
00:33:25,927 --> 00:33:27,767
Speaker 2: ordinary people who are just sending their kids in and

696
00:33:27,887 --> 00:33:29,487
Speaker 2: out of people's houses, maybe with an apple.

697
00:33:29,687 --> 00:33:32,247
Speaker 3: It makes people think that everyone's lost their mind, and

698
00:33:32,327 --> 00:33:35,847
Speaker 3: it plays with people emotions because rage is not a

699
00:33:36,087 --> 00:33:39,567
Speaker 3: pleasant emotion and if you're constantly spiking it by being

700
00:33:39,607 --> 00:33:42,367
Speaker 3: on social media, then no wonder we get into a

701
00:33:42,367 --> 00:33:44,047
Speaker 3: car and someone with their shit.

702
00:33:44,327 --> 00:33:47,047
Speaker 4: So I just want to also draw attention to the

703
00:33:47,167 --> 00:33:52,687
Speaker 4: rage bait that some let's call them commentators online public figures.

704
00:33:53,327 --> 00:33:55,487
Speaker 4: They do a different type of rage baiting, which is

705
00:33:56,007 --> 00:34:00,247
Speaker 4: not necessarily making something up like this Shane Lanigan's did,

706
00:34:00,727 --> 00:34:05,247
Speaker 4: but picking fights with other people or putting out deliberately

707
00:34:05,327 --> 00:34:08,927
Speaker 4: in sindiary opinions because they know it will go viral

708
00:34:08,927 --> 00:34:11,127
Speaker 4: and a lot of people will push back and be angry,

709
00:34:11,167 --> 00:34:13,167
Speaker 4: but they'll get attention because we live in an attention

710
00:34:13,247 --> 00:34:16,847
Speaker 4: economy and the best way to milk that attention economy

711
00:34:17,047 --> 00:34:18,367
Speaker 4: is with rage and with anger.

712
00:34:18,447 --> 00:34:20,887
Speaker 3: Well, the filter has changed. It used to be anything news.

713
00:34:21,127 --> 00:34:24,767
Speaker 3: It was about informing people, and I think newsrooms have

714
00:34:24,807 --> 00:34:27,687
Speaker 3: as much to answer for as individuals, which is will

715
00:34:27,687 --> 00:34:29,887
Speaker 3: this get people talking? That's what it's all.

716
00:34:29,927 --> 00:34:31,967
Speaker 4: But it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because if you're

717
00:34:32,287 --> 00:34:36,807
Speaker 4: an influencer and you say Jesse Stevens is a dumb.

718
00:34:36,487 --> 00:34:37,807
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah.

719
00:34:38,047 --> 00:34:40,247
Speaker 4: Then suddenly, oh, that's a story.

720
00:34:40,287 --> 00:34:41,247
Speaker 3: You know, drag them in.

721
00:34:41,327 --> 00:34:44,607
Speaker 4: Yeah, an engagement, a story for Daily Mail picks it up,

722
00:34:44,607 --> 00:34:47,487
Speaker 4: and it's like this influencer and these two women are

723
00:34:47,487 --> 00:34:49,647
Speaker 4: in the fight, and it's like I would like to

724
00:34:49,687 --> 00:34:51,727
Speaker 4: be taken out of this narrative, like you are just

725
00:34:52,287 --> 00:34:55,367
Speaker 4: trying to use me to build your own profile and

726
00:34:55,407 --> 00:34:56,127
Speaker 4: your own following.

727
00:34:56,407 --> 00:34:59,247
Speaker 3: I know this isn't a visual medium, but throughout the

728
00:34:59,287 --> 00:35:02,327
Speaker 3: recording of this podcast, Maya's buttons have been coming undone,

729
00:35:02,407 --> 00:35:07,967
Speaker 3: and now her at her brand, your left breast is out,

730
00:35:08,727 --> 00:35:10,767
Speaker 3: and I think we do have cameras, so I would

731
00:35:10,807 --> 00:35:11,007
Speaker 3: like that.

732
00:35:11,487 --> 00:35:15,047
Speaker 2: I was just thinking, like me, it's very sexy today

733
00:35:15,167 --> 00:35:16,607
Speaker 2: because I'm trying to get some attention.

734
00:35:17,567 --> 00:35:21,207
Speaker 4: I'm becoming invisible, and I know that sexualizing myself during

735
00:35:21,207 --> 00:35:22,527
Speaker 4: a podcast.

736
00:35:22,407 --> 00:35:23,167
Speaker 1: Is the only way.

737
00:35:23,287 --> 00:35:23,607
Speaker 5: Really.

738
00:35:23,727 --> 00:35:26,647
Speaker 2: You know one thing about rage bait that I did

739
00:35:26,647 --> 00:35:28,767
Speaker 2: not know until today, and so I'm this is the

740
00:35:28,807 --> 00:35:33,887
Speaker 2: public service. Friends. Sometimes brands use it deliberately, where so

741
00:35:34,167 --> 00:35:36,727
Speaker 2: say there was a famous lip gloss, for example, and

742
00:35:36,767 --> 00:35:40,287
Speaker 2: a whole lot of influencers used it incorrectly and like

743
00:35:40,487 --> 00:35:43,327
Speaker 2: broke the lid of it and like basically made a

744
00:35:43,367 --> 00:35:46,407
Speaker 2: mess with this lip gloss. It was a deliberate strategy

745
00:35:46,927 --> 00:35:49,447
Speaker 2: for engagement where a whole lot of people would then

746
00:35:49,727 --> 00:35:52,447
Speaker 2: want to talk about that. It spreads the word about

747
00:35:52,487 --> 00:35:55,327
Speaker 2: the lip gloss, and it was a deliberate strategy to

748
00:35:56,087 --> 00:35:59,047
Speaker 2: raise the profile of a product. So that's interesting too,

749
00:35:59,167 --> 00:36:01,367
Speaker 2: Right is to think that when you see people scrowing

750
00:36:01,367 --> 00:36:04,607
Speaker 2: things up on the Internet that seem really obvious, it

751
00:36:04,687 --> 00:36:05,207
Speaker 2: might not be.

752
00:36:05,247 --> 00:36:07,647
Speaker 1: Right unless it's us, in which case.

753
00:36:07,567 --> 00:36:09,767
Speaker 2: We always just screw things up. If you're worried about

754
00:36:09,807 --> 00:36:12,607
Speaker 2: the way that Mia says premier, that is not ritebaiting.

755
00:36:12,647 --> 00:36:14,087
Speaker 2: That's just the way she is.

756
00:36:16,087 --> 00:36:18,927
Speaker 4: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments if Mama

757
00:36:18,967 --> 00:36:21,607
Speaker 4: May are out Loud just for Mamma May As subscribers

758
00:36:21,927 --> 00:36:23,607
Speaker 4: follow the link in the show notes to get your

759
00:36:23,687 --> 00:36:26,207
Speaker 4: daily dose of out Loud and a big thank you

760
00:36:26,247 --> 00:36:28,287
Speaker 4: to everyone who is already subscribed.

761
00:36:36,127 --> 00:36:39,327
Speaker 6: Oftentimes, I will do everything that the real bridesmat will do.

762
00:36:39,407 --> 00:36:41,727
Speaker 6: So we'll have our initial phone calls where we'll get

763
00:36:41,767 --> 00:36:44,367
Speaker 6: to know each other. I'll go on the brill Shower,

764
00:36:44,407 --> 00:36:47,567
Speaker 6: the bachelorette party. I'll help with the rehearsal dinner. I'll

765
00:36:47,567 --> 00:36:49,727
Speaker 6: show up for that, I'll walk down the aisle at

766
00:36:49,767 --> 00:36:52,487
Speaker 6: the wedding, I'll give this speech. So really, all of

767
00:36:52,527 --> 00:36:55,247
Speaker 6: those main points that a friend would do, or a

768
00:36:55,287 --> 00:36:57,247
Speaker 6: brides meeat would do, I do exactly that.

769
00:36:57,527 --> 00:37:00,247
Speaker 4: This week on No Filter, I interviewed a professional bridesmaid.

770
00:37:00,327 --> 00:37:03,487
Speaker 4: And by professional, I don't mean in the colloquial sense

771
00:37:03,527 --> 00:37:05,607
Speaker 4: that she's done it a lot, or that she's really

772
00:37:05,647 --> 00:37:08,407
Speaker 4: good at it, although she is and she has. I

773
00:37:08,487 --> 00:37:10,967
Speaker 4: mean it's her business and she gets paid to be

774
00:37:11,127 --> 00:37:15,567
Speaker 4: a bridesmaid. Her name is Jen Glance. She's the founder

775
00:37:15,767 --> 00:37:19,807
Speaker 4: of a business called Bridesmaid for Hire, and she's been

776
00:37:19,847 --> 00:37:23,287
Speaker 4: a bridesmaid over one hundred and twenty five times. It

777
00:37:23,327 --> 00:37:26,207
Speaker 4: all began in her twenties. You know, your phase of

778
00:37:26,207 --> 00:37:28,047
Speaker 4: your life. I don't know if it happened to you guys.

779
00:37:28,047 --> 00:37:30,447
Speaker 4: I only got asked twice. Maybe because I'm a terrible bridesmaid.

780
00:37:30,487 --> 00:37:32,567
Speaker 4: I didn't get asked any more times. But you go

781
00:37:32,647 --> 00:37:33,967
Speaker 4: through a phase where a lot of your friends are

782
00:37:33,967 --> 00:37:35,927
Speaker 4: getting married and you might be a bridesmaid a lot

783
00:37:35,967 --> 00:37:36,407
Speaker 4: of times.

784
00:37:36,447 --> 00:37:38,767
Speaker 1: And she started thinking.

785
00:37:38,527 --> 00:37:41,047
Speaker 4: This is a lot of work. I am good at it,

786
00:37:41,087 --> 00:37:42,807
Speaker 4: but it is a lot of work. And so she

787
00:37:42,887 --> 00:37:46,487
Speaker 4: put an ad on Craigslist saying that she was for hire,

788
00:37:47,007 --> 00:37:48,487
Speaker 4: and she got inundated.

789
00:37:48,967 --> 00:37:51,567
Speaker 1: So have a listen. Here's a little bit of our interview.

790
00:37:51,687 --> 00:37:53,687
Speaker 6: You know, some people reach out and they say, I

791
00:37:53,727 --> 00:37:55,207
Speaker 6: want to hire you, but I want to make sure

792
00:37:55,207 --> 00:37:57,847
Speaker 6: that nobody ever finds out. And I respect that. You know,

793
00:37:57,927 --> 00:38:00,607
Speaker 6: they want this as a service that is completely undercover,

794
00:38:01,007 --> 00:38:03,527
Speaker 6: and in most instances that's how it works. I'll have

795
00:38:03,567 --> 00:38:05,847
Speaker 6: a fake name, a fake backstory for how I know

796
00:38:05,967 --> 00:38:08,887
Speaker 6: the person, and I will just pretend to be part

797
00:38:08,927 --> 00:38:11,367
Speaker 6: of their life from some area of their life, whether

798
00:38:11,407 --> 00:38:15,287
Speaker 6: it's yoga class, or grade school or study abroad. I

799
00:38:15,327 --> 00:38:18,327
Speaker 6: will just blend into their life. And sometimes they don't

800
00:38:18,327 --> 00:38:20,927
Speaker 6: even tell the person that they're marrying that they hired me.

801
00:38:21,167 --> 00:38:21,927
Speaker 1: Hollywood, did you.

802
00:38:21,847 --> 00:38:24,407
Speaker 2: Think I loved this interview? I knew I wanted to

803
00:38:24,407 --> 00:38:27,767
Speaker 2: listen to it immediately, But while I was listening to it,

804
00:38:27,967 --> 00:38:30,487
Speaker 2: I had two very different opinions about it, which is

805
00:38:30,527 --> 00:38:32,287
Speaker 2: why I really wanted to talk about it on the show.

806
00:38:32,967 --> 00:38:35,967
Speaker 2: First of all, Jen says that one of the reasons

807
00:38:36,007 --> 00:38:38,727
Speaker 2: why her service is needed and has done quite well.

808
00:38:39,407 --> 00:38:41,687
Speaker 2: Is that a lot of women do not have the

809
00:38:41,807 --> 00:38:44,767
Speaker 2: kind of friends or family that you could ask to

810
00:38:44,807 --> 00:38:47,367
Speaker 2: be a bridesmaid. And I think when you hear the

811
00:38:47,527 --> 00:38:50,767
Speaker 2: surface of that, it feels like something really sad, and

812
00:38:50,887 --> 00:38:55,047
Speaker 2: it speaks to like perhaps loneliness and disconnection and social isolation.

813
00:38:55,407 --> 00:38:57,607
Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, that's sad. And then I

814
00:38:57,687 --> 00:39:01,167
Speaker 2: thought about it a bit more and I thought, oh,

815
00:39:01,607 --> 00:39:04,407
Speaker 2: is it that, like a lot of things, we've elevated

816
00:39:04,447 --> 00:39:09,207
Speaker 2: the status of these kind of jobs, like bridesmaid has become.

817
00:39:09,527 --> 00:39:11,407
Speaker 2: Rather than just being your mate turning up and wearing

818
00:39:11,407 --> 00:39:13,487
Speaker 2: a dress and standing next to you, we now expect

819
00:39:13,647 --> 00:39:15,127
Speaker 2: and you go into this a lot on the show

820
00:39:15,807 --> 00:39:19,247
Speaker 2: Kitchen Tees, engagement parties, hens nights, Da da da da da,

821
00:39:19,247 --> 00:39:22,327
Speaker 2: like basically dedicating your life to this person for six months.

822
00:39:22,727 --> 00:39:24,807
Speaker 2: And I know that's a stereotype and not everybody does it,

823
00:39:24,847 --> 00:39:27,247
Speaker 2: but we've made the job much harder than it used

824
00:39:27,287 --> 00:39:29,767
Speaker 2: to be. Add on top of that, the fact that

825
00:39:29,967 --> 00:39:33,567
Speaker 2: women's work in inverted commas, whether it's organizing the office

826
00:39:33,927 --> 00:39:37,287
Speaker 2: birthday parties and leaving cupcakes or you know, all the

827
00:39:37,327 --> 00:39:39,927
Speaker 2: volunteer things that women do at schools and all of

828
00:39:39,967 --> 00:39:43,887
Speaker 2: those kind of things has always been women's work, and

829
00:39:44,007 --> 00:39:47,207
Speaker 2: maybe once that was literally women's work, at least in

830
00:39:47,247 --> 00:39:49,567
Speaker 2: some quarters. They weren't doing paid work, so that was

831
00:39:49,607 --> 00:39:52,007
Speaker 2: literally the things that filled their day. And I don't

832
00:39:52,007 --> 00:39:54,607
Speaker 2: think that world ever really existed, but certainly it doesn't anymore.

833
00:39:54,647 --> 00:39:57,687
Speaker 2: So women are doing paid work and all the unpaid work,

834
00:39:57,887 --> 00:39:59,927
Speaker 2: and you hear people all the time saying pay women

835
00:39:59,927 --> 00:40:02,687
Speaker 2: for their labor, and so I was like, maybe this

836
00:40:03,047 --> 00:40:06,167
Speaker 2: is just a very good example of paying women for

837
00:40:06,207 --> 00:40:10,127
Speaker 2: their labor rather than expecting people to do it for free.

838
00:40:10,447 --> 00:40:14,327
Speaker 3: Or is this a symptom of a capitalist structure where

839
00:40:14,327 --> 00:40:19,607
Speaker 3: we have started to commodify any exchange of service, any

840
00:40:19,647 --> 00:40:23,007
Speaker 3: exchange of service, it's like, oh, I'm going to charge

841
00:40:23,007 --> 00:40:25,327
Speaker 3: you for that, which is what the playdate thing was

842
00:40:25,327 --> 00:40:26,087
Speaker 3: all about as well.

843
00:40:26,207 --> 00:40:29,407
Speaker 4: But this is real, to be clear, It is not pretend.

844
00:40:29,607 --> 00:40:33,527
Speaker 4: It's not rage bait. This is an actual business. We

845
00:40:33,647 --> 00:40:34,207
Speaker 4: established this.

846
00:40:36,047 --> 00:40:37,967
Speaker 3: I had to go really deep on the website to

847
00:40:38,087 --> 00:40:40,927
Speaker 3: understand what was being promised and what the service was

848
00:40:40,967 --> 00:40:44,207
Speaker 3: because it's not just turning up in address. It is

849
00:40:44,807 --> 00:40:48,127
Speaker 3: phone calls, you know, being someone to talk to, and

850
00:40:48,167 --> 00:40:51,207
Speaker 3: like it's a lot of emotional support a lot of emotional.

851
00:40:50,927 --> 00:40:53,647
Speaker 1: It's not a wedding planner. That's different. No, it's not

852
00:40:53,807 --> 00:40:55,687
Speaker 1: actually about the wedding, it's about the bride.

853
00:40:55,847 --> 00:40:57,607
Speaker 3: At first, I was like, wait, why aren't you just

854
00:40:57,647 --> 00:41:00,007
Speaker 3: paying a wedding planner. If you can afford this, just

855
00:41:00,167 --> 00:41:03,767
Speaker 3: pay a wedding planner to organize it. And also, if

856
00:41:03,807 --> 00:41:06,967
Speaker 3: when you are someone to be your bride'smaid with that

857
00:41:07,167 --> 00:41:11,407
Speaker 3: is coming a list of keeper form, it's indicators and expectations,

858
00:41:11,927 --> 00:41:15,007
Speaker 3: then there's something very wrong with that arrangement and that's

859
00:41:15,087 --> 00:41:18,207
Speaker 3: not fair. We shouldn't be doing that to each other.

860
00:41:18,927 --> 00:41:23,287
Speaker 3: But looking at what she was promising, I was also like, well,

861
00:41:23,327 --> 00:41:26,567
Speaker 3: these are also just features of friendship.

862
00:41:26,287 --> 00:41:30,007
Speaker 4: Right, Like, well, I think Hole nailed it in that

863
00:41:30,567 --> 00:41:33,167
Speaker 4: they used to be when being a bride'smaid was just

864
00:41:33,247 --> 00:41:36,887
Speaker 4: kind of hold my handbag while I'm walking down the eye.

865
00:41:37,007 --> 00:41:40,367
Speaker 3: Should a bridesmaid be any different to a groomsman? I

866
00:41:40,447 --> 00:41:42,287
Speaker 3: understand that it has been because.

867
00:41:42,247 --> 00:41:44,847
Speaker 4: Brides are very different to grooms and have a lot

868
00:41:44,887 --> 00:41:46,687
Speaker 4: more needs. Have you ever met a bride?

869
00:41:46,967 --> 00:41:50,247
Speaker 3: Well, I was a bride and I had bridesmaids, and

870
00:41:50,727 --> 00:41:53,407
Speaker 3: they do well, this is the thing I didn't expect

871
00:41:53,687 --> 00:41:56,727
Speaker 3: a single thing from them if I'm having a wedding,

872
00:41:57,567 --> 00:42:00,167
Speaker 3: I don't think it's on them. They work full time.

873
00:42:00,247 --> 00:42:02,367
Speaker 3: One of them has a baby like I didn't expect.

874
00:42:02,687 --> 00:42:05,927
Speaker 4: See, I've been a bridesmaid, and I know that I

875
00:42:06,047 --> 00:42:08,767
Speaker 4: let down the brides. I wasn't was I matro, I

876
00:42:08,767 --> 00:42:10,407
Speaker 4: don't know what I was. And this was a long

877
00:42:10,447 --> 00:42:13,487
Speaker 4: time ago before things got out of control with bridesmaids.

878
00:42:13,927 --> 00:42:17,727
Speaker 4: But I think now it's that you're very much responsible

879
00:42:18,607 --> 00:42:22,727
Speaker 4: for making it her day of days emotionally. I don't

880
00:42:22,767 --> 00:42:25,367
Speaker 4: mean again like the flowers and the catering, it's not

881
00:42:25,447 --> 00:42:29,807
Speaker 4: your job, but helping a bride navigate the emotions of

882
00:42:29,847 --> 00:42:33,527
Speaker 4: a wedding day is a lot of work. I don't

883
00:42:33,567 --> 00:42:35,887
Speaker 4: just mean the be there when she called, but if

884
00:42:35,927 --> 00:42:38,207
Speaker 4: it's like come to all my fittings and do this

885
00:42:38,287 --> 00:42:40,167
Speaker 4: and do that, and I need you to organize this,

886
00:42:41,007 --> 00:42:43,247
Speaker 4: it is a huge amount of work. And if you'd

887
00:42:43,247 --> 00:42:45,367
Speaker 4: have been a bride'smaid, and I know you have been

888
00:42:45,407 --> 00:42:49,287
Speaker 4: a couple of times for brides who perhaps had demanded

889
00:42:49,327 --> 00:42:52,767
Speaker 4: more of you than you were capable of giving. Isn't

890
00:42:52,807 --> 00:42:55,447
Speaker 4: it just better for everybody to acknowledge their either their

891
00:42:55,447 --> 00:42:58,407
Speaker 4: limitations as a bridesmaid or their needs as a bride

892
00:42:58,527 --> 00:43:01,407
Speaker 4: and commodify it and it's just an expense, just like

893
00:43:01,447 --> 00:43:02,527
Speaker 4: everything else in a wedding.

894
00:43:02,767 --> 00:43:05,967
Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right, Jesse, if you've got reasonable expectations,

895
00:43:06,007 --> 00:43:08,567
Speaker 2: as you did. But because maybe I'm sure that Instagram

896
00:43:08,567 --> 00:43:10,287
Speaker 2: and everything has a very large part to play in this.

897
00:43:10,927 --> 00:43:13,367
Speaker 2: If you are expected to give up large portions of

898
00:43:13,407 --> 00:43:17,127
Speaker 2: your life and time to basically become somebody's sort of

899
00:43:17,687 --> 00:43:21,927
Speaker 2: de facto fixer for months and months and months, that

900
00:43:22,127 --> 00:43:22,727
Speaker 2: is work.

901
00:43:22,927 --> 00:43:26,287
Speaker 3: That's a paid position. Absolutely. I don't think it's one

902
00:43:26,287 --> 00:43:28,967
Speaker 3: of bride'smaid and I think if you are, is it

903
00:43:29,207 --> 00:43:33,167
Speaker 3: decepting people? Like if there's deception at your wedding, that's

904
00:43:33,207 --> 00:43:35,647
Speaker 3: a bit unusual. Like if you're paying someone, you can

905
00:43:35,687 --> 00:43:38,047
Speaker 3: also just have them as your assistant or whatever and

906
00:43:38,087 --> 00:43:39,887
Speaker 3: they don't have to be in the bridal party pretending

907
00:43:39,927 --> 00:43:42,047
Speaker 3: that you do. Yogashi get such.

908
00:43:41,847 --> 00:43:43,647
Speaker 4: An interesting point because I was going to say that,

909
00:43:43,847 --> 00:43:46,967
Speaker 4: as Whole pointed out, Instagram and everything has just changed.

910
00:43:47,007 --> 00:43:50,127
Speaker 4: I mean, like boomers wouldn't have had wedding planners, right

911
00:43:50,207 --> 00:43:53,447
Speaker 4: unless you are super super rich. That's a relatively new think.

912
00:43:53,527 --> 00:43:56,127
Speaker 4: Gene's the first generation that have and not everyone has

913
00:43:56,167 --> 00:43:58,127
Speaker 4: a wedding planner. You just used to organize it yourself.

914
00:43:58,287 --> 00:44:00,807
Speaker 4: So the idea of paying someone to organize your wedding

915
00:44:01,207 --> 00:44:04,327
Speaker 4: in the same way that paying someone to walk your dog, like,

916
00:44:04,527 --> 00:44:06,687
Speaker 4: we have commodified a whole lot of shit.

917
00:44:06,487 --> 00:44:08,327
Speaker 1: That we used to do. It's the outsource culture.

918
00:44:08,927 --> 00:44:11,087
Speaker 4: But I think that you made a great point, Jesse

919
00:44:11,367 --> 00:44:14,087
Speaker 4: in the part about the deception, and it goes back

920
00:44:14,127 --> 00:44:17,247
Speaker 4: to what you say whole about it being lonely, because

921
00:44:17,287 --> 00:44:21,247
Speaker 4: it's not just that you need the emotional support, but

922
00:44:21,407 --> 00:44:25,607
Speaker 4: that you need the kind of friend that can just

923
00:44:25,647 --> 00:44:28,647
Speaker 4: be completely selfless. So it's about your expectations of your

924
00:44:28,767 --> 00:44:32,127
Speaker 4: friends as well as what you practically need from a bridesmaid.

925
00:44:32,167 --> 00:44:36,367
Speaker 3: And I've seen this online even like money being exchanged

926
00:44:36,807 --> 00:44:39,207
Speaker 3: and someone's offering to basically have a conversation with you

927
00:44:39,447 --> 00:44:41,687
Speaker 3: or go for a walk with you, and that stuff

928
00:44:41,727 --> 00:44:47,087
Speaker 3: makes me feel sad. I understand, I understand people's loneliness

929
00:44:47,087 --> 00:44:50,327
Speaker 3: and they don't know where to start, but I just

930
00:44:50,407 --> 00:44:53,727
Speaker 3: kept looking at it going you don't need a bridesmaid.

931
00:44:54,167 --> 00:44:56,927
Speaker 3: You could have one less bridesmaid. In fact, you don't

932
00:44:56,927 --> 00:44:57,567
Speaker 3: need a wedding.

933
00:44:57,927 --> 00:44:59,687
Speaker 1: But you're right, But it's about.

934
00:44:59,407 --> 00:45:03,247
Speaker 4: That artifice that I've got someone who loves me so

935
00:45:03,407 --> 00:45:05,847
Speaker 4: much that they will do this for free. Yeah, it's

936
00:45:05,887 --> 00:45:08,367
Speaker 4: the hiding part. It's the hiding part.

937
00:45:08,287 --> 00:45:10,767
Speaker 3: And that's a flex that's right, right.

938
00:45:10,727 --> 00:45:13,367
Speaker 2: But also, I mean, you're right, of course that it

939
00:45:13,487 --> 00:45:16,567
Speaker 2: is sad to have to ask for that, but also

940
00:45:16,727 --> 00:45:18,967
Speaker 2: you know, and we're probably guilty of this. I am

941
00:45:19,367 --> 00:45:21,487
Speaker 2: amazed at the amount of negative And I'm not a

942
00:45:21,487 --> 00:45:23,527
Speaker 2: wedding person, as you know, I'm not married and whatever,

943
00:45:23,847 --> 00:45:26,207
Speaker 2: but I'm amazed at the amount of bitching everybody does

944
00:45:26,247 --> 00:45:27,407
Speaker 2: about weddings constantly.

945
00:45:27,527 --> 00:45:27,687
Speaker 6: Right.

946
00:45:27,727 --> 00:45:29,607
Speaker 2: There are whole Facebook groups on this. I didn't like

947
00:45:29,647 --> 00:45:31,087
Speaker 2: the food, and they asked me to do too much

948
00:45:31,087 --> 00:45:32,407
Speaker 2: and I had to travel and I had to pay,

949
00:45:32,647 --> 00:45:36,207
Speaker 2: and like now, I would feel almost if I was

950
00:45:36,207 --> 00:45:38,207
Speaker 2: in this position being a bride, like I don't want

951
00:45:38,207 --> 00:45:39,847
Speaker 2: to ask my friend because she's going to think I'm

952
00:45:39,847 --> 00:45:41,287
Speaker 2: going to turn her into a slave, and I'm not

953
00:45:41,327 --> 00:45:43,167
Speaker 2: going to turn her into a slave. And you will.

954
00:45:43,447 --> 00:45:44,167
Speaker 1: And that's the thing.

955
00:45:44,327 --> 00:45:48,727
Speaker 4: Brides have a very particular view generally until they become brides,

956
00:45:49,607 --> 00:45:52,927
Speaker 4: you change. So I think that brides still think that

957
00:45:53,047 --> 00:45:55,847
Speaker 4: asking someone to be your bride'smaid is a huge honor,

958
00:45:56,567 --> 00:45:57,047
Speaker 4: and I think.

959
00:45:56,927 --> 00:45:59,247
Speaker 3: It's honored when I've been asked to be a bridesmade it.

960
00:45:59,247 --> 00:46:01,407
Speaker 3: It was an honor, and I don't think that we

961
00:46:01,407 --> 00:46:05,247
Speaker 3: should normalize. I was honored to normalize this thing. I

962
00:46:06,327 --> 00:46:09,887
Speaker 3: understand people saying talking about the money, but I also

963
00:46:09,967 --> 00:46:13,847
Speaker 3: think this is just about the erosion of friendship and

964
00:46:13,927 --> 00:46:17,247
Speaker 3: again how everything kind of comes back to money. Like

965
00:46:17,287 --> 00:46:19,807
Speaker 3: I do kind of get it. I get saying I've

966
00:46:19,807 --> 00:46:21,407
Speaker 3: been asked to be a bridesmaid and I have to

967
00:46:21,487 --> 00:46:23,247
Speaker 3: organize his hands and it's going to cost me this much,

968
00:46:23,247 --> 00:46:26,167
Speaker 3: and da da da da da, Like if they're your mate,

969
00:46:26,207 --> 00:46:27,607
Speaker 3: can you not talk about that?

970
00:46:27,807 --> 00:46:31,447
Speaker 4: But I just think maybe that hiring a bridesmaid to

971
00:46:31,567 --> 00:46:34,327
Speaker 4: do all the actual work that's involved is actually a

972
00:46:34,367 --> 00:46:37,407
Speaker 4: really generous gift to your friends because then they can

973
00:46:37,487 --> 00:46:39,567
Speaker 4: just enjoy being bridesmaids because they don't have to do

974
00:46:39,607 --> 00:46:41,327
Speaker 4: any of the work, you know what I mean.

975
00:46:41,727 --> 00:46:43,727
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think that it's a job. I don't

976
00:46:43,727 --> 00:46:46,567
Speaker 3: think it's a role. I think bridesmaids show up on

977
00:46:46,607 --> 00:46:49,167
Speaker 3: the date. You need to get address and some shoes

978
00:46:49,207 --> 00:46:51,167
Speaker 3: and walk down an aisle or not.

979
00:46:51,647 --> 00:46:53,647
Speaker 4: I'll put a link in the show notes to that

980
00:46:53,767 --> 00:46:54,927
Speaker 4: episode of No Filter.

981
00:46:55,287 --> 00:46:56,207
Speaker 1: How A listen to Jen.

982
00:46:56,327 --> 00:46:58,607
Speaker 4: She has some funny stories about times that she's been

983
00:46:58,687 --> 00:47:00,647
Speaker 4: fired and times that she's had to.

984
00:47:00,607 --> 00:47:03,767
Speaker 1: Fire brides Mia. Do you have any superstitions?

985
00:47:03,807 --> 00:47:05,407
Speaker 3: You do have superstitions because you.

986
00:47:05,487 --> 00:47:06,007
Speaker 2: Like touching me.

987
00:47:07,007 --> 00:47:07,247
Speaker 1: Yeah.

988
00:47:07,527 --> 00:47:09,967
Speaker 4: I had to actually wean myself off touch would I've

989
00:47:10,007 --> 00:47:12,567
Speaker 4: got a little bit unhealthy about touching wood in that

990
00:47:12,607 --> 00:47:15,447
Speaker 4: I had to travel with a stick for a while

991
00:47:15,527 --> 00:47:17,727
Speaker 4: in my car, in my pocket. Everywhere I went, I

992
00:47:17,767 --> 00:47:21,207
Speaker 4: had to have a stick. I had to sometimes if

993
00:47:21,247 --> 00:47:23,167
Speaker 4: I was thinking something, I'd have to stop the car

994
00:47:23,447 --> 00:47:25,247
Speaker 4: and find some wood if I didn't have a stick

995
00:47:25,287 --> 00:47:25,687
Speaker 4: in the car.

996
00:47:25,967 --> 00:47:29,487
Speaker 3: Okay, because we talked on yesterday's subscriber episode Holly and

997
00:47:29,527 --> 00:47:34,367
Speaker 3: I and m Vernham about superstitions. We were talking about

998
00:47:34,447 --> 00:47:37,887
Speaker 3: Olympic athletes and some of the more unusual superstitions they have.

999
00:47:38,047 --> 00:47:40,687
Speaker 3: Sarna Williams famously has some the things.

1000
00:47:40,527 --> 00:47:43,007
Speaker 1: You see them do before they yeah compete.

1001
00:47:42,647 --> 00:47:45,407
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And we talked about kind of the definition

1002
00:47:45,447 --> 00:47:48,527
Speaker 3: of a superstition if we have any, if we think

1003
00:47:48,607 --> 00:47:52,367
Speaker 3: they actually do work. It was such an interesting episode.

1004
00:47:52,447 --> 00:47:54,207
Speaker 3: A link to that will be in the show notes.

1005
00:47:54,767 --> 00:47:56,727
Speaker 2: Massive Thank you to all of you out louders for

1006
00:47:56,767 --> 00:47:59,087
Speaker 2: being with us on this Wednesday, and of course to

1007
00:47:59,127 --> 00:48:01,207
Speaker 2: our fabulous team for putting it together. We're going to

1008
00:48:01,207 --> 00:48:02,807
Speaker 2: be back in your ears tomorrow.

1009
00:48:03,007 --> 00:48:04,167
Speaker 3: Bye, goodbye.

1010
00:48:04,967 --> 00:48:07,847
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mama Maya subscribers listening. If you

1011
00:48:08,007 --> 00:48:10,847
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

1012
00:48:10,887 --> 00:48:13,327
Speaker 2: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.

1013
00:48:13,487 --> 00:48:15,367
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description.