WEBVTT - There's A Right (And Wrong) Way To Revenge Quit 0:00:06.570 --> 0:00:09.290 You're listening to Amma mea podcast. 0:00:13.570 --> 0:00:18.209 Hello, and welcome to biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm 0:00:18.329 --> 0:00:22.890 m Vernon and today we're talking about revenge quitting. Apparently 0:00:23.009 --> 0:00:26.729 it's going to be twenty twenty five's biggest career trend. 0:00:27.050 --> 0:00:30.530 And honestly, look, I have some thoughts. So you know 0:00:30.570 --> 0:00:33.490 how when you're just like really angry about work and 0:00:33.570 --> 0:00:36.770 you have that fantasy where you dramatically quit your job 0:00:36.810 --> 0:00:40.170 and leave your terrible boss in the lurch. Well, according 0:00:40.250 --> 0:00:44.010 to TikTok, people are actually doing that, like a lot 0:00:44.050 --> 0:00:48.090 of people. So today our career coaches Michelle Battisby and 0:00:48.210 --> 0:00:52.250 Sophhurst are breaking down whether revenge quitting is actually worth it. 0:00:52.730 --> 0:00:55.970 Michelle is an entrepreneur who launched Bumble in Australia and 0:00:56.050 --> 0:00:59.170 now runs her own startup called Sunroom, and sof took 0:00:59.170 --> 0:01:01.770 the leap from Google to launch work Baby. It's a 0:01:01.770 --> 0:01:04.570 career coaching program for people in their early career era 0:01:04.890 --> 0:01:08.970 like myself. So Michelle actually did a video on revenge quitting. 0:01:09.010 --> 0:01:12.169 She posted on TikTok and it went viral. Here's what 0:01:12.170 --> 0:01:12.850 she had to say. 0:01:13.490 --> 0:01:16.650 Revenge quitting it's essentially where you get fed up resentment 0:01:16.729 --> 0:01:19.970 has built up, and you leave abruptly with no warning. 0:01:20.410 --> 0:01:23.610 Experts are saying that this is happening predominantly amongst young people, 0:01:23.929 --> 0:01:25.970 and they're saying it's because younger people don't know how 0:01:25.970 --> 0:01:28.850 to deal with complex issues in the workplace and they 0:01:29.050 --> 0:01:31.330 want to leave their employers in shitty positions. 0:01:31.330 --> 0:01:33.090 They're kind of doing it out of spite. 0:01:33.850 --> 0:01:36.649 You don't owe it to your employer to hang around 0:01:36.729 --> 0:01:37.609 if you're not happy. 0:01:38.209 --> 0:01:41.169 Everyone is replaceable. I know that can feel hard to hear. 0:01:41.649 --> 0:01:44.369 You do owe it to yourself, though, to get the 0:01:44.410 --> 0:01:46.569 best outcomes and revenge. 0:01:46.610 --> 0:01:49.770 Quitting is all over TikTok. Right now, this is your 0:01:49.809 --> 0:01:50.770 sign to quit your job. 0:01:50.890 --> 0:01:52.930 I've just quit my full time job and I've got. 0:01:52.770 --> 0:01:57.329 No plan, no money, no next job, but I feel 0:01:57.690 --> 0:02:00.290 free away from toxicity. 0:02:01.130 --> 0:02:05.850 WHOA, I'm going to be submitting my noticement else day 0:02:05.890 --> 0:02:09.010 is going to be on Friday. Also, didn't give two weeks. 0:02:09.370 --> 0:02:12.930 I just got a text that said the short notice 0:02:13.650 --> 0:02:18.250 leaves a sour taste up departure. How are you going 0:02:18.290 --> 0:02:20.810 to lay people off and give them no notice but 0:02:20.930 --> 0:02:23.889 them when I am giving you all like four days notice. 0:02:24.530 --> 0:02:28.010 I was so scared to leave my toxic job, for 0:02:28.130 --> 0:02:30.850 fear of having that gap in my resume, for fear 0:02:30.890 --> 0:02:33.570 of having people ask why I was only there for 0:02:33.610 --> 0:02:37.290 eleven months, for fear of having people ask why would 0:02:37.330 --> 0:02:40.890 I leave a title end company that were successful? Why 0:02:40.930 --> 0:02:43.130 would I walk away from that? But the reality is 0:02:44.050 --> 0:02:47.090 the title, the job, the status, all of it was 0:02:47.130 --> 0:02:50.690 not worth my mental health. I would cry almost daily 0:02:50.890 --> 0:02:53.290 having to walk into that office. I mean, I blew 0:02:53.370 --> 0:02:56.450 up my life quitting that job, but I don't regret 0:02:56.530 --> 0:02:57.290 it at all. 0:02:57.570 --> 0:03:00.170 I have a spoiler. There might actually be a way 0:03:00.210 --> 0:03:04.130 to get revenge on your toxic workplace without totally destroying 0:03:04.130 --> 0:03:08.090 your career. Let's get it to it. 0:03:11.410 --> 0:03:14.450 Michelle, you posted a video on TikTok. It's kind of 0:03:14.610 --> 0:03:16.730 gone viral. I think it's up to close to a 0:03:16.730 --> 0:03:18.650 million views. Now what is going on? 0:03:19.010 --> 0:03:20.930 I have no idea, but I think it means it's 0:03:20.930 --> 0:03:21.570 a hot topic. 0:03:21.850 --> 0:03:22.370 It's wild. 0:03:22.370 --> 0:03:24.690 There's like five hundred messages. I feel like you've been 0:03:24.730 --> 0:03:25.610 flooded with dams. 0:03:25.890 --> 0:03:28.650 There's a bit of a generational war going on in 0:03:28.690 --> 0:03:32.330 the comments. There are a lot of gen Z's showing 0:03:32.330 --> 0:03:34.930 a lot of pride around the fact that they have 0:03:35.170 --> 0:03:38.930 revenge quit and then there's definitely what appears to be 0:03:39.010 --> 0:03:43.530 older generations saying, you know, don't burn bridges, it's not 0:03:43.690 --> 0:03:45.490 worth it. What are you going to do if you 0:03:45.490 --> 0:03:48.530 ever need a reference? Everything comes back around and those 0:03:48.530 --> 0:03:51.930 sorts of things. But I think in amongst all of that, 0:03:52.090 --> 0:03:54.010 some of the comments that have really stood out to 0:03:54.050 --> 0:03:56.130 me are the ones that are talking about the state 0:03:56.170 --> 0:03:58.690 of the economy and that it still is a bit 0:03:58.730 --> 0:03:59.250 more of an. 0:03:59.170 --> 0:04:01.570 Employer market out there. 0:04:02.050 --> 0:04:04.250 And so there are some people that have done this 0:04:04.330 --> 0:04:07.810 and they haven't been able to find jobs since. A 0:04:07.850 --> 0:04:09.850 bit of a word of warning there, which we'll definitely 0:04:09.850 --> 0:04:13.570 get into. But I'm curious, So, if you've ever had 0:04:13.610 --> 0:04:17.890 anyone in the teams you've managed quit in a way 0:04:18.130 --> 0:04:21.170 that would be detrimental to their future employment. 0:04:21.010 --> 0:04:24.490 Yeah, I guess I've never worked at a company that's 0:04:24.530 --> 0:04:26.450 been bad enough that people would want to quit in 0:04:26.490 --> 0:04:28.890 that way. But what I have actually seen, Michelle a 0:04:28.930 --> 0:04:33.090 lot is people, especially young people, will leave a job 0:04:33.210 --> 0:04:36.490 without having a conversation around what is actually making them unhappy, 0:04:36.970 --> 0:04:40.170 and then the leaders will like in a super genuine way, 0:04:40.290 --> 0:04:43.170 say we just wish they had have told us because 0:04:43.170 --> 0:04:46.730 we could have changed XOSA. So definitely. Not all problems 0:04:46.730 --> 0:04:49.690 can be solved at a company, you know, egotistical founders, 0:04:49.810 --> 0:04:53.210 leadership problems, culture fit, ethics, But I do think some 0:04:53.450 --> 0:04:56.690 problems can be solved. The number one reason that people 0:04:56.730 --> 0:04:59.210 hate their job, there's some stats behind this, but is 0:04:59.250 --> 0:05:01.570 often their manager, right, So I think it's seventy five 0:05:01.610 --> 0:05:04.250 percent of people in a study that will link the 0:05:04.250 --> 0:05:06.850 show notes said that their manager is the most stressful 0:05:06.890 --> 0:05:10.530 part of their job and that their manager, their direct manager, 0:05:10.570 --> 0:05:12.650 actually has more of an impact on their mental health 0:05:12.730 --> 0:05:16.490 than their therapist or a doctor. Managers have a massive 0:05:16.650 --> 0:05:19.450 impact on people and it can make people really unhappy. 0:05:19.610 --> 0:05:22.849 That is actually sometimes solvable, not all the time, but 0:05:22.970 --> 0:05:25.290 sometimes it might be can you move teams? Can you 0:05:25.330 --> 0:05:27.690 get yourself into positions where that person is not managing you? 0:05:28.050 --> 0:05:32.010 And some times it can be smaller things that are 0:05:32.090 --> 0:05:35.850 leading to bigger problems. So I'm pretty pro it's so hard, 0:05:35.930 --> 0:05:38.290 but try and have a conversation, working out the courage 0:05:38.290 --> 0:05:40.770 to actually have a conversation with the person that you 0:05:40.810 --> 0:05:43.810 have a problem with, and at least exploring or exhausting 0:05:43.810 --> 0:05:46.330 your options before you leave a job. 0:05:46.570 --> 0:05:49.730 Yeah, I love that, and I think it ultimately comes 0:05:49.770 --> 0:05:52.650 down to what kind of person you are, I think, 0:05:52.730 --> 0:05:55.450 and what the circumstances are, and how much you love 0:05:55.530 --> 0:05:58.690 the company or the mission, and if you feel like 0:05:59.330 --> 0:06:03.050 it's worth working on. It's a little bit like a relationship, 0:06:03.130 --> 0:06:05.810 you know, like if you really love someone, you I 0:06:05.850 --> 0:06:09.330 want to have communicated clearly before you decide to walk 0:06:09.370 --> 0:06:12.210 out the door, so you leave with no regrets. There 0:06:12.210 --> 0:06:14.490 are many different ways to look at this, and I 0:06:14.530 --> 0:06:17.290 think it yeah, kind of comes down to how much 0:06:17.330 --> 0:06:18.650 you want to work on it. 0:06:18.890 --> 0:06:21.730 Yeah, I totally agree. I think even if someone's like, well, 0:06:21.930 --> 0:06:23.850 that conversation sounds really hard, I don't even know what 0:06:23.890 --> 0:06:26.650 I would say. And again, this is really hard. I'm 0:06:26.650 --> 0:06:28.450 not saying it's easy, but it could be the type 0:06:28.490 --> 0:06:30.290 of thing where you say to a manager, I've got 0:06:30.290 --> 0:06:33.130 some feedback on how we work together. Our relationship is 0:06:33.170 --> 0:06:35.730 really important. I want to invest in making it good. 0:06:36.130 --> 0:06:39.130 Can we have a conversation around how we communicate, how 0:06:39.170 --> 0:06:41.250 we work together and I can share some of these 0:06:41.290 --> 0:06:45.730 things and just then, you know, taking observable examples and 0:06:45.930 --> 0:06:48.690 talking about how it impacts you. Just trying to do 0:06:48.770 --> 0:06:51.090 that before you quit a job can be helpful. 0:06:51.410 --> 0:06:54.490 I love that so much, all right, so we are 0:06:54.570 --> 0:06:58.290 also going to chat to an HI expert on all 0:06:58.330 --> 0:07:01.170 of this because we've got our own opinions, but we 0:07:01.210 --> 0:07:04.450 also want to make sure that everyone is hearing from 0:07:04.450 --> 0:07:07.330 someone who's seen it a million times before, and if 0:07:07.370 --> 0:07:10.010 there is a right or wrong way to quit your job. 0:07:10.210 --> 0:07:22.290 Yeah, I cannot wait. Quiet quitting made me sad, and 0:07:22.530 --> 0:07:26.930 revenge quitting is making me honestly scared. Michelle, what is 0:07:27.050 --> 0:07:30.010 revenge quitting and how is it different to just regular quitting. 0:07:30.330 --> 0:07:33.570 Yeah, so revenge quitting is you're wanting to drive the 0:07:33.650 --> 0:07:36.330 knife in, like you're wanting to do a bit of damage. 0:07:36.370 --> 0:07:39.810 I think the key difference is regular quitting you're not 0:07:39.890 --> 0:07:44.850 really trying to stir the pot. You're just leaving quite amicably. 0:07:45.330 --> 0:07:49.490 You're giving your notice, you're working on your closing tasks handover. 0:07:49.930 --> 0:07:51.450 But revenge quitting might. 0:07:51.330 --> 0:07:55.810 Show up like you strategically leaving at a time where 0:07:55.850 --> 0:07:58.010 you know the business really needs you or they'll be 0:07:58.090 --> 0:08:00.970 at a loss without you on a certain project, and 0:08:01.010 --> 0:08:08.290 it's usually coupled with some damaging the behaviors like deleting 0:08:08.370 --> 0:08:13.650 work before you leave, maybe some it breaches, or potentially 0:08:13.770 --> 0:08:19.330 warning to publicly slam your ex employer either via social media, 0:08:19.930 --> 0:08:22.370 glassdoor reviews and things like that. 0:08:22.690 --> 0:08:24.770 Yeah, this is the part that actually scares me because 0:08:24.770 --> 0:08:28.290 it's like there's almost this normalization that happens because people 0:08:28.290 --> 0:08:30.210 are seeing other people talking about this a lot and 0:08:30.250 --> 0:08:32.730 showing their behaviors of how they're revenge quitting on social 0:08:33.210 --> 0:08:37.449 there's almost this normalization of that behavior that does scare me. Michelle. 0:08:37.770 --> 0:08:40.410 In the dms that people were leaving, did anyone give 0:08:40.410 --> 0:08:42.170 examples of how they revenge. 0:08:41.890 --> 0:08:45.970 Quit or there wasn't necessarily examples, but there was coming 0:08:46.010 --> 0:08:48.490 back to that a lot of pride, like I did 0:08:48.490 --> 0:08:50.090 this and don't regret it for a second. 0:08:50.570 --> 0:08:53.530 I must be a trendsetter because I did this last year. 0:08:54.250 --> 0:08:58.730 I do love this one. I'm revenge staying out of spite. 0:09:00.530 --> 0:09:01.930 There are other people. 0:09:01.650 --> 0:09:04.010 Saying, you know, people forget that when you apply to 0:09:04.050 --> 0:09:05.929 a new job they ask for reference answers. 0:09:06.010 --> 0:09:06.690 Be careful. 0:09:07.370 --> 0:09:10.530 There's people praising the younger generation, like I kind of 0:09:10.610 --> 0:09:13.610 love the younger gen for this, though companies show no 0:09:13.810 --> 0:09:18.490 loyalty to their employees, so it's just being reciprocated. And 0:09:19.130 --> 0:09:22.770 that is something that I also touched on in this 0:09:22.970 --> 0:09:26.170 TikTok Is it can be really hard to hear this. 0:09:26.650 --> 0:09:29.329 A lot of people don't like hearing this, but everyone 0:09:29.530 --> 0:09:32.329 is replaceable in the workplace, Like at the end of 0:09:32.410 --> 0:09:36.090 the day, it is a transaction. And so that's why 0:09:36.170 --> 0:09:40.330 I have never subscribed to just hanging around. You're not happy, 0:09:40.330 --> 0:09:43.290 you're not being appreciated, you're not being developed because you 0:09:43.330 --> 0:09:45.490 think you have to or you have to, you know, 0:09:45.930 --> 0:09:49.650 reach a certain number and write that on your CV, Like, 0:09:49.810 --> 0:09:54.850 I don't subscribe to that. But I also don't think 0:09:54.890 --> 0:09:57.650 I subscribe to revenge quitting in the way it's been 0:09:57.690 --> 0:10:01.770 showing up in my comments, where it's like people think 0:10:01.890 --> 0:10:05.810 they have the upper hand when they revenge quit. I 0:10:05.810 --> 0:10:08.370 don't know if I'm really picking up through these comments 0:10:08.410 --> 0:10:12.170 that they necessarily do have the upper hand in the 0:10:12.210 --> 0:10:17.410 employment relationship. There were people naming and shaming, and I 0:10:17.450 --> 0:10:19.770 don't know if it's amazing. I'd love your opinion on 0:10:19.810 --> 0:10:24.370 this as well. But the social media shaming, I think 0:10:24.410 --> 0:10:28.970 can come across as a little bit emotional, and it's 0:10:29.010 --> 0:10:32.210 a little bit short term gain, like drive the knife 0:10:32.210 --> 0:10:35.290 in and drag someone through the mard, but long term, 0:10:35.330 --> 0:10:37.290 I think it could be really detrimental. 0:10:37.610 --> 0:10:40.689 Emotion is okay, at work, but you always want to 0:10:40.730 --> 0:10:43.170 be low drama. And I think the best piece of 0:10:43.210 --> 0:10:45.890 advice that I've ever had around this is that as 0:10:45.930 --> 0:10:49.530 much as possible at work, you want to respond, not react, 0:10:49.930 --> 0:10:52.850 and so react is high emotion. You're often in an 0:10:53.050 --> 0:10:58.050 unemotionally regulated state, and it's like this quick reaction. Responding 0:10:58.170 --> 0:11:01.650 is when you let those emotions settle and you actually 0:11:01.850 --> 0:11:04.050 kind of decide how you want to show up and 0:11:04.090 --> 0:11:06.410 how you want to respond to something. And just back 0:11:06.410 --> 0:11:08.210 to your point, Michelle, I think you know whether you 0:11:08.250 --> 0:11:10.930 want to react, to respond combined with this feel good 0:11:10.930 --> 0:11:13.850 short term just to have really long lasting impact on 0:11:13.890 --> 0:11:16.690 your career, Like that combined together is sort of what 0:11:16.770 --> 0:11:19.329 revenge quitting is, which what makes me nervous about it. 0:11:19.610 --> 0:11:21.770 I do agree that like there is something in this 0:11:21.890 --> 0:11:24.130 and that it's probably going to feel pretty good if 0:11:24.210 --> 0:11:27.330 an employer really has fed you over, so I'm not 0:11:27.370 --> 0:11:30.689 like totally against it, But Michelle, beyond just the kind 0:11:30.730 --> 0:11:32.930 of like how it's making people show up, there are 0:11:32.970 --> 0:11:35.930 actually some potential more serious dangers people should be aware of, 0:11:36.050 --> 0:11:37.890 Like what other things should people be thinking about if 0:11:37.890 --> 0:11:39.130 they're planning to revenge quit. 0:11:39.410 --> 0:11:43.130 I think when you're in that short term reactive mindset, 0:11:43.610 --> 0:11:46.290 you're not thinking that you're ever going to need that 0:11:46.450 --> 0:11:50.290 employer's reference ever again. But you made an amazing point 0:11:50.370 --> 0:11:52.929 the other day where you would just be blown away 0:11:52.970 --> 0:11:56.650 with how the ghosts from your network come back around 0:11:57.130 --> 0:12:00.050 further down the track, and you just can't bank on that. 0:12:00.490 --> 0:12:04.890 You can't bank on someone not back channeling and maybe 0:12:04.890 --> 0:12:08.730 going and asking about you, or you actually needing a 0:12:08.770 --> 0:12:10.689 reference from that workplace in the future. 0:12:11.010 --> 0:12:14.210 Your reputation is the thing that walks into a room 0:12:14.250 --> 0:12:19.010 before you and so leaving and damaging your reputation either 0:12:19.050 --> 0:12:22.090 with like individual people or with a company. It actually 0:12:22.090 --> 0:12:25.130 just closes doors. Right if you're early in your career, 0:12:25.370 --> 0:12:27.850 like you haven't experienced this yet, it will explode your 0:12:27.850 --> 0:12:32.850 brain the way people from your work past then like 0:12:32.890 --> 0:12:34.610 get reintroduced to you. Someone will be like, oh, you're 0:12:34.650 --> 0:12:37.010 working on this new project. Here's the stakeholder that you're 0:12:37.050 --> 0:12:39.210 working with, and it's someone that you screwed over, or 0:12:39.570 --> 0:12:41.930 in reverse, it's someone that screwed you over, and you're like, 0:12:42.090 --> 0:12:45.810 hello again, old friends. So protect your reputation and just 0:12:45.890 --> 0:12:49.130 like quickly also think about some more serious dangers, things 0:12:49.250 --> 0:12:53.010 like company documents are the property of the company. So 0:12:53.210 --> 0:12:56.170 you go in deleting files or like taking things with you, 0:12:56.690 --> 0:12:59.650 there are some potential legal risks you so like some 0:12:59.690 --> 0:13:02.930 stuff is serious and think about that. But also just yet, 0:13:03.010 --> 0:13:05.450 as you said, Michelle, like not having that reference burning 0:13:05.570 --> 0:13:06.170 those bridges. 0:13:06.450 --> 0:13:08.970 I think there is also another way to look at 0:13:08.970 --> 0:13:11.250 all of this, which I touch on in the TikTok, 0:13:11.610 --> 0:13:14.690 which is some accountability does need to be taken by 0:13:14.770 --> 0:13:15.850 the employers as well. 0:13:16.170 --> 0:13:17.610 And I think if you are the. 0:13:17.690 --> 0:13:21.250 Kind of employer or you're a manager where this sort 0:13:21.330 --> 0:13:24.650 of thing is happening time and time again in your 0:13:24.650 --> 0:13:29.330 team or company, then you are actually the problem. 0:13:29.410 --> 0:13:32.809 That is a huge red flag, and I think. 0:13:32.690 --> 0:13:37.770 That's when the reputational side of things actually flips, and you, 0:13:37.930 --> 0:13:40.330 as an employer will start to get a bad reputation 0:13:40.570 --> 0:13:43.410 and you won't be able to attract top talent. Because 0:13:43.490 --> 0:13:48.770 backchanneling happens in all areas of the employment relationship. Glassdoor 0:13:48.930 --> 0:13:52.530 is obviously like a huge one, and sometimes these stories 0:13:52.650 --> 0:13:55.970 do go viral on social media where it is a 0:13:56.050 --> 0:14:00.250 pretty serious and pretty bad look for the employer. 0:14:00.530 --> 0:14:00.970 I agree. 0:14:01.010 --> 0:14:03.210 I actually think there's some power in it, and I 0:14:03.250 --> 0:14:06.490 sort of started thinking like could revenge quitting actually be 0:14:06.570 --> 0:14:09.050 a good thing? And there were some comments on your video, 0:14:09.370 --> 0:14:11.650 someone saying I revenge quit and my company took me 0:14:11.690 --> 0:14:14.770 back for fifty k more. Another person saying, my boss's 0:14:14.890 --> 0:14:17.050 cared both times I revenge quit, they called me to 0:14:17.090 --> 0:14:19.730 join a week later on a higher daily rate. But 0:14:19.770 --> 0:14:22.170 also someone else just saying younger generations are much more 0:14:22.170 --> 0:14:25.330 courageous than us. Millennials need to do better. And I 0:14:25.370 --> 0:14:28.410 do think there is some power in that, in saying 0:14:28.850 --> 0:14:34.010 you can't treat a whole workforce badly without there being ramifications, 0:14:34.050 --> 0:14:35.330 and we are going to talk about it and we 0:14:35.370 --> 0:14:37.610 are going to have our voice. I do think there 0:14:37.690 --> 0:14:39.170 is a positive side to it too. 0:14:39.410 --> 0:14:41.730 Both of us don't think that you should stay in 0:14:41.730 --> 0:14:45.050 a work environment where you're not feeling appreciated, you're not 0:14:45.090 --> 0:14:48.010 feeling like you can work collaboratively with senior. 0:14:47.770 --> 0:14:50.890 Leaders, you're not growing. It is not worth it. 0:14:50.970 --> 0:14:54.010 And because everyone is replaceable, that really drives that home 0:14:54.050 --> 0:14:56.650 for me again, like it is not worth your sanity 0:14:56.970 --> 0:14:59.490 to stay in that kind of an environment. I'm all 0:14:59.530 --> 0:15:01.730 for getting up and walking out the door when it 0:15:01.770 --> 0:15:06.210 no longer serves you, but doing it with grace. We'll 0:15:06.210 --> 0:15:08.250 take you further later down the track. 0:15:08.530 --> 0:15:11.810 Okay, so you've heard from the perspective of Michelle and I. 0:15:11.810 --> 0:15:14.170 I think it's time we bring in an expert. Up next, 0:15:14.290 --> 0:15:17.930 we speak to a recruitment and talent expert who knows 0:15:18.010 --> 0:15:19.570 all about the art of quitting. 0:15:29.770 --> 0:15:33.690 Okay, we are joined by Nichola Squires, who is a 0:15:33.930 --> 0:15:39.010 recruitment and talent expert with ten years experience in banking 0:15:39.090 --> 0:15:39.850 and finance. 0:15:40.050 --> 0:15:43.050 And Nikola was also my first work wife. 0:15:43.290 --> 0:15:47.810 So this is a live demonstration of your network coming 0:15:47.850 --> 0:15:49.890 back around a decade later. 0:15:50.890 --> 0:15:52.330 Nikola, Welcome to VIZ. 0:15:52.570 --> 0:15:54.770 Thanks for having me. Michelle, it's great to be here. 0:15:55.010 --> 0:16:00.370 We are talking all about quitting and specifically if there 0:16:00.450 --> 0:16:03.130 is a right or wrong way to quit your job. 0:16:03.570 --> 0:16:07.370 So Nicola, be straight up with us. Do you think 0:16:07.410 --> 0:16:09.090 there's a right or wrong way to quit? 0:16:09.370 --> 0:16:13.250 I don't necessarily think there's a wrong way to quit, 0:16:13.490 --> 0:16:16.730 but there is most definitely a wrong way to exit 0:16:16.770 --> 0:16:21.810 an organization. So we call it managing your exit now, 0:16:21.970 --> 0:16:24.490 especially if you're in a role you feel like you've 0:16:24.530 --> 0:16:29.290 made a really significant contribution to an organization, you felt underappreciated, 0:16:29.530 --> 0:16:31.930 you decided okay, it's time to move on. From the firm. 0:16:32.210 --> 0:16:35.690 You've gone out, You've secured a fantastic role in another organization, 0:16:35.810 --> 0:16:38.530 You've got an incredible pay rise, you're really excited about 0:16:38.570 --> 0:16:40.650 the team that you're going to be joining. You then 0:16:40.730 --> 0:16:43.730 land in a position where you're standing staring down the 0:16:43.770 --> 0:16:48.450 barrel of a one two three month notice period and 0:16:48.930 --> 0:16:53.370 maintaining motivation through that period is supremely challenging, but it 0:16:53.450 --> 0:16:57.330 is so important. Essentially, you will be remembered for your 0:16:57.410 --> 0:17:01.770 last work, and if you're not managing that process well, 0:17:01.890 --> 0:17:04.209 you will then undermine all of that hard work that 0:17:04.210 --> 0:17:07.090 you've done over your career in that organization, or you 0:17:07.169 --> 0:17:10.050 can do. I mean, then there's so many elements to it. 0:17:10.410 --> 0:17:13.409 You really need to go out strong. You need to 0:17:13.530 --> 0:17:16.450 work in partnership with your management team as you're leaving. 0:17:16.810 --> 0:17:19.649 This is things like wrapping out and doing candovers, making 0:17:19.690 --> 0:17:22.929 sure that any work that only you are holding or 0:17:22.970 --> 0:17:25.570 you have the key to is wrapped up in a 0:17:25.570 --> 0:17:29.090 really nice end to meet way. It's also about communication, so, 0:17:29.130 --> 0:17:32.210 for example, firms might want you to communicate your departure 0:17:32.290 --> 0:17:34.810 in a specific way. You need to stick to that. 0:17:35.609 --> 0:17:39.330 It could be very tempting, especially if you feel underappreciated 0:17:39.370 --> 0:17:42.409 that specific situation to go around talk about the new 0:17:42.410 --> 0:17:45.929 opportunity you got, all the reasons why, and start bad 0:17:46.050 --> 0:17:51.929 mouthing individuals within your management hierarchy. That is a definite no. 0:17:52.050 --> 0:17:52.090 No. 0:17:52.770 --> 0:17:54.090 I love what you said. 0:17:54.530 --> 0:17:58.409 You'll be remembered for your last work, and we put 0:17:58.450 --> 0:18:01.330 our best face forward when we enter an organization. 0:18:02.050 --> 0:18:04.770 I do feel like we should do the same when 0:18:04.810 --> 0:18:07.369 we leave. But a question that popped. 0:18:07.170 --> 0:18:10.010 Up as you were speaking, actually, do you think you 0:18:10.050 --> 0:18:14.010 should always have a new role before you resign? 0:18:14.410 --> 0:18:19.490 No, not necessarily. I mean with everything here, it's so circumstantial. 0:18:19.850 --> 0:18:22.370 If you're in a position where you know an organization 0:18:22.930 --> 0:18:26.409 isn't right for you anymore, and you feel comfortable from 0:18:26.410 --> 0:18:29.690 a financial position that you can actually wrap things up 0:18:29.730 --> 0:18:32.810 well there and then use some downtime to really search. 0:18:32.930 --> 0:18:36.369 Especially if you have finessed exactly what it is that 0:18:36.450 --> 0:18:39.050 you want for your next role, you know that you're 0:18:39.050 --> 0:18:41.490 going to need to put time, effort, and energy into that. 0:18:41.930 --> 0:18:44.250 If you want to say, look, let's part ways here, 0:18:44.650 --> 0:18:46.610 I will do a handover, I will wrap up here 0:18:46.650 --> 0:18:49.330 and then start exploring other opportunities. I don't think there 0:18:49.370 --> 0:18:51.930 is any issues with that at all. In fact, it's 0:18:51.970 --> 0:18:56.010 actually very appealing as someone who's hiring to have a 0:18:56.130 --> 0:18:58.330 strong profile in front of you and know that they 0:18:58.330 --> 0:19:01.930 can start immediately. That is something that is a huge 0:19:01.970 --> 0:19:04.129 advantage or can be a huge advantage. 0:19:04.450 --> 0:19:06.850 Yeah, that is an effort peak perspective that I think 0:19:06.890 --> 0:19:10.850 would help a lot of our listeners. This leads into 0:19:10.850 --> 0:19:13.889 my next question, which is how do you know that 0:19:13.970 --> 0:19:15.650 it's the right time to leave a role. 0:19:16.010 --> 0:19:18.129 I think if we just look at a standard scenario, 0:19:18.650 --> 0:19:20.970 it's when you feel like you have capped out your 0:19:20.970 --> 0:19:24.210 great potential in that particular role. And that's not for everyone. 0:19:24.290 --> 0:19:27.090 Not everybody wants to continually move all of the time. 0:19:27.210 --> 0:19:29.530 But I think roughly, you're in a role in a 0:19:29.530 --> 0:19:31.970 seat for twelve months, you have kind of done a 0:19:32.010 --> 0:19:34.810 full cycle, You've mastered it, you understand what needs to 0:19:34.850 --> 0:19:38.010 happen there. You then have six to twelve months more 0:19:38.050 --> 0:19:41.889 of operating with like your full masterfull ship under your belt, 0:19:42.210 --> 0:19:44.729 and then it's time to start looking. Now. That can 0:19:44.770 --> 0:19:47.609 be a lateral move within the organization. You might be 0:19:47.650 --> 0:19:50.609 going from a sales seat into a product team or 0:19:50.650 --> 0:19:53.730 something along those lines. It could be a jump to 0:19:54.330 --> 0:19:58.169 a managerial role, and if those opportunities don't exist in 0:19:58.210 --> 0:20:01.689 the organization that you are sitting under. That's when you 0:20:01.730 --> 0:20:05.170 need to start looking externally. That's kind of a generic 0:20:05.650 --> 0:20:09.490 of circumstances. I think if you're in an environment where 0:20:09.490 --> 0:20:11.889 there's been a cultural change which means you are no 0:20:11.930 --> 0:20:15.010 longer enjoying the role, so that could be a changing 0:20:15.010 --> 0:20:17.770 strategy of the firm, which means fundamentally your day to 0:20:17.850 --> 0:20:20.169 day job looks completely different and it's not what you 0:20:20.250 --> 0:20:22.850 want to be doing, then that is a good trigger. 0:20:23.010 --> 0:20:25.930 But moving on from a role could be a management change. 0:20:26.130 --> 0:20:28.570 Do you now have a manager whose style does not 0:20:28.770 --> 0:20:31.690 align with the style in which you like to be managed. 0:20:32.290 --> 0:20:34.290 That could be a trigger to move on from a role. 0:20:34.690 --> 0:20:37.770 There's a variety of triggers and it really just depends 0:20:37.770 --> 0:20:39.609 on the circumstances. Yeah. 0:20:39.690 --> 0:20:42.409 I love that you brought up twelve months because I 0:20:42.450 --> 0:20:46.730 think traditionally people have felt like they have to stick 0:20:46.770 --> 0:20:50.689 it out to reach a certain number that I don't know, 0:20:50.730 --> 0:20:52.650 maybe was implemented by society. 0:20:52.730 --> 0:20:56.050 I think back in the old days, people would work. 0:20:55.930 --> 0:20:59.410 At companies for five, ten, fifteen years, and I think 0:20:59.450 --> 0:21:03.090 it was really our generation. I've even forgot what general 0:21:03.090 --> 0:21:06.050 we are gen why are we gen Why started to 0:21:06.130 --> 0:21:07.170 jump around. 0:21:06.850 --> 0:21:09.810 When millennials I'm a millennial. Yeah, I think you're a 0:21:09.850 --> 0:21:10.810 customer millennials. 0:21:10.850 --> 0:21:13.129 As we'll go with that, we started to kind of 0:21:13.170 --> 0:21:16.250 jump around a little bit more. Do you think that 0:21:16.370 --> 0:21:19.050