WEBVTT - Mid Without Motherhood. From Child-less To Child-Free 0:00:10.287 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.767 --> 0:00:20.567 that this podcast is recorded on. Who will look after 0:00:20.607 --> 0:00:24.647 you when you're old? What's wrong with you? How will 0:00:24.687 --> 0:00:31.767 you ever understand unconditional love? So selfish? So sad? There 0:00:31.807 --> 0:00:34.247 are many things the world has got better at when 0:00:34.287 --> 0:00:36.447 it comes to women being able to live their lives. 0:00:36.487 --> 0:00:39.527 However they choose. No need to hand in your work 0:00:39.567 --> 0:00:42.327 security pass when a ring goes on the finger, No 0:00:42.487 --> 0:00:44.687 need to get a man to sign that loan application, 0:00:45.007 --> 0:00:48.927 that voting form, that credit card. You'll be tolerated for 0:00:48.967 --> 0:00:52.047 not marrying the first person who asks. You can run 0:00:52.087 --> 0:00:54.007 for office, and you can drive your car, and you 0:00:54.047 --> 0:00:56.847 can buy your own everything. But damn it, if you 0:00:56.967 --> 0:01:02.007 don't have children. Did you forget? Did you never meet 0:01:02.047 --> 0:01:06.487 the right guy? Too chicken to go it alone? Oh, 0:01:06.647 --> 0:01:10.727 you chose your career. There's still you'll change your mind 0:01:11.407 --> 0:01:15.007 until there isn't, and then there's only a silent pity 0:01:15.447 --> 0:01:18.767 and a question mark about the very meaning of a 0:01:18.767 --> 0:01:23.247 woman's life if she didn't surrender herself to children, as 0:01:23.287 --> 0:01:27.047 if that's some sort of waste, an empty space, a 0:01:27.167 --> 0:01:32.247 lack but what if, for the myriad reasons that status exists. 0:01:32.367 --> 0:01:35.007 The child free woman is not an affront, or a 0:01:35.087 --> 0:01:39.807 sadness or an absence, but many things that, for whatever reason, 0:01:40.207 --> 0:01:43.807 we are too afraid to look at, an acceptance that 0:01:43.927 --> 0:01:48.207 sometimes we just don't get everything we wanted or imagined, 0:01:48.887 --> 0:01:52.927 that a peace and reassessment can be found inside that fact. 0:01:54.047 --> 0:01:56.487 Maybe that it's a private sadness that can be tucked 0:01:56.527 --> 0:02:00.367 into a pocket as fulfilling lives a lived. Or maybe 0:02:00.407 --> 0:02:04.327 it's a joyful opening of possibility, a gateway to a 0:02:04.447 --> 0:02:08.807 life less ordinary, a freedom to pursue passion and purpose, 0:02:09.327 --> 0:02:12.287 and a chance to write a different definition of family, 0:02:12.687 --> 0:02:17.407 of nurturing, of motherhood. Or maybe it's just your little life, 0:02:17.847 --> 0:02:21.887 not exceptional, not a statement, not a tragedy or a movement, 0:02:22.047 --> 0:02:25.927 but just what is. There are many things the world 0:02:25.967 --> 0:02:28.607 has become better at as we find ourselves in mid 0:02:29.047 --> 0:02:31.967 but making sense of a child free woman is not 0:02:32.127 --> 0:02:37.847 one of them yet. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I 0:02:38.047 --> 0:02:42.887 am mid midlife, mid family, mid bad attitude. What if 0:02:42.927 --> 0:02:46.167 you didn't lose your keys because you're getting old? What 0:02:46.447 --> 0:02:49.607 if you're grumpy today because you slept badly and you 0:02:49.687 --> 0:02:51.807 slept badly because you've got a lot going on and 0:02:51.847 --> 0:02:54.487 a busy, fizzy brain. And you have a lot going 0:02:54.527 --> 0:02:57.807 on because you're capable and strong and still very much alive, 0:02:58.447 --> 0:03:01.367 and your brain is busy because you're smart and experienced 0:03:01.407 --> 0:03:04.727 and can hold many things at once. I'm asking you 0:03:04.807 --> 0:03:08.287 these questions today not because I've lost it, but because 0:03:08.327 --> 0:03:11.567 I want you to in a world that is pro aging, 0:03:11.887 --> 0:03:16.087 not anti because that's the world our guest today. Faith 0:03:16.167 --> 0:03:19.887 or Googu grew up in in Nigeria, where Faith was 0:03:19.927 --> 0:03:22.367 born and lived until she moved to Britain age nine, 0:03:22.447 --> 0:03:26.007 and then onto Australia as an adult. Faith says that 0:03:26.127 --> 0:03:30.847 age was revered and respected that everybody wanted to be 0:03:30.927 --> 0:03:34.767 the oldest person in the room. Can you even imagine 0:03:34.807 --> 0:03:36.967 that in the world that we live in, where we 0:03:37.007 --> 0:03:39.647 tilt our heads in pity at anyone over the age 0:03:39.647 --> 0:03:43.807 of thirty. Faith is a psychotherapist who talks to a 0:03:43.807 --> 0:03:46.967 lot of women about their anxiety about aging. In fact, 0:03:47.047 --> 0:03:50.207 aging anxiety is something she's begun to specialize in a 0:03:50.207 --> 0:03:53.047 bit and repositioning it as a positive or at the 0:03:53.167 --> 0:03:56.567 very least, the age is not the defining thing about 0:03:56.567 --> 0:03:59.207 their life. Moment, and that's become a big part of 0:03:59.247 --> 0:04:01.847 what she does in reassuring women that they did not 0:04:02.007 --> 0:04:05.327 lose their keys because they're getting old. Another thing she 0:04:05.447 --> 0:04:08.607 does is host her own community, the Silver Sirens of 0:04:08.647 --> 0:04:12.807 Older Women, sharing wisdom and companionship and stories. And today 0:04:13.007 --> 0:04:16.407 she shares her story with me. We talk about all 0:04:16.487 --> 0:04:19.047 kinds of things, about choosing a job you'll get better 0:04:19.127 --> 0:04:23.127 at with age, about beauty and money, and also about 0:04:23.127 --> 0:04:26.927 Faith's life without kids, how she came to be living 0:04:26.967 --> 0:04:29.967 in it and how she made peace with it. It's 0:04:30.007 --> 0:04:33.767 a beautiful, meaningful conversation about the letting go of the 0:04:33.887 --> 0:04:36.767 lives you didn't get to live and embracing the one 0:04:36.767 --> 0:04:42.287 that you did. Please meet Faith at Google. Faith, thank 0:04:42.327 --> 0:04:43.687 you for being here with me today. 0:04:44.367 --> 0:04:45.207 Absolute pleasure. 0:04:45.767 --> 0:04:49.047 We're all beginning to get a bit jack of anti aging, right, 0:04:49.327 --> 0:04:50.487 anti aging, we're so. 0:04:50.527 --> 0:04:50.967 Done with it. 0:04:51.567 --> 0:04:54.487 But you're one of the few people i've heard actually 0:04:54.607 --> 0:04:58.447 say that you look forward to your next birthday, that 0:04:58.527 --> 0:05:03.247 you're like actively pro aging. Yeah, tell me about that attitude. 0:05:03.687 --> 0:05:05.447 Yeah, Look, it's one of those attitudes. 0:05:05.447 --> 0:05:08.007 When I say it, I can see the skepticism people's 0:05:08.047 --> 0:05:11.287 faces and they're like, yeah, you know, but for me, 0:05:11.847 --> 0:05:14.967 just growing up in a culture where agent is actually revered. 0:05:15.127 --> 0:05:18.567 You know, I never got anything negative about agent. Obviously 0:05:19.247 --> 0:05:20.127 can't be Pollyanna. 0:05:20.207 --> 0:05:20.367 You know. 0:05:20.407 --> 0:05:22.687 We know that certain things will change and certain things 0:05:22.727 --> 0:05:26.447 will become more challenging, but in terms of aging as 0:05:26.487 --> 0:05:29.567 something to fear, it was just never in my consciousness, 0:05:29.607 --> 0:05:31.927 you know. So for me, looking at my mother was 0:05:31.967 --> 0:05:35.567 my role model. And in her fifties, she absolutely thrived, 0:05:35.767 --> 0:05:37.927 you know, she really she started to went to study, 0:05:38.367 --> 0:05:41.727 she broke up with my father, she found a new lover, 0:05:41.847 --> 0:05:44.807 thank god, you know, and she traveled and just did 0:05:44.807 --> 0:05:47.527 this really exciting thing. And I just saw that once 0:05:47.567 --> 0:05:49.887 her focus was no longer on the children and us, 0:05:50.287 --> 0:05:52.207 she could focus back on herself and I just saw 0:05:52.207 --> 0:05:55.247 her blossoming, you know. So she was my personal role model. 0:05:55.287 --> 0:05:58.007 And then culturally as a Nigerian, and I think a 0:05:58.007 --> 0:06:01.447 lot of you know, collective cultures, not just Nigeria and 0:06:01.447 --> 0:06:02.807 but a lot of collective cultures. 0:06:03.247 --> 0:06:05.127 You know, agent is something that we look forward to. 0:06:05.207 --> 0:06:07.967 You know, you revere the elders and you respect them, 0:06:08.007 --> 0:06:10.087 and everyone wants to be the older person in the room. 0:06:10.487 --> 0:06:13.047 That's so interesting that everybody wants to be the oldest 0:06:13.047 --> 0:06:16.887 person in the room. So it's like you look forward 0:06:16.887 --> 0:06:21.047 to getting that wisdom and having that sort of status. 0:06:21.287 --> 0:06:23.727 It's a status, that's exactly it. It's a status. 0:06:24.287 --> 0:06:26.927 And you grew up in Nigeria till you were about nine, 0:06:26.967 --> 0:06:28.407 and then you moved to England. Is that right? 0:06:28.487 --> 0:06:28.807 I did? 0:06:29.207 --> 0:06:33.007 And did you feel a shift then in that culture 0:06:33.047 --> 0:06:35.007 in terms of how people look to aging or I 0:06:35.007 --> 0:06:36.127 mean you're little, You're probably not. 0:06:36.247 --> 0:06:38.167 I didn't even think about it, to be honest, I 0:06:38.167 --> 0:06:41.127 didn't think about aging until probably in my late forties. 0:06:41.767 --> 0:06:42.567 It's happening to me. 0:06:42.927 --> 0:06:46.167 Well actually know, actually didn't. I only thought about it. 0:06:46.767 --> 0:06:48.607 I didn't think about it even then. I was always 0:06:48.647 --> 0:06:50.887 aware every master on Berthday that I had, Like when 0:06:50.927 --> 0:06:53.807 I was twenty, I remember really clearly thinking, Wow, I 0:06:53.807 --> 0:06:56.687 wonder what thirty would be. And then when I was thirty, 0:06:56.807 --> 0:06:58.927 I remember thinking I wonder what forty would be Now 0:06:59.127 --> 0:07:01.607 For me, that was just always my curiosity, you know. 0:07:01.647 --> 0:07:04.567 I was always looking forward and people think like, why 0:07:04.567 --> 0:07:06.807 are you doing that? But I just felt this excitement 0:07:06.847 --> 0:07:09.887 that if I'm this person now, what would that be 0:07:09.927 --> 0:07:12.727 ten years time? How do I have grown and evolved? 0:07:12.767 --> 0:07:15.047 So I was at that curiosity about the process. 0:07:15.927 --> 0:07:18.767 Do you think if you had to hazard a guess 0:07:18.847 --> 0:07:22.487 or draw on your experience for why a lot of cultures, 0:07:22.527 --> 0:07:24.687 including I guess the one we sort of swim in 0:07:24.727 --> 0:07:28.847 here in Australia, are so anti aging rather than pro 0:07:29.127 --> 0:07:31.727 What do you think it is. Do you think it's 0:07:31.767 --> 0:07:35.647 that loss of status because we don't make older people 0:07:35.647 --> 0:07:38.247 feel special, or do you think it's all physical or 0:07:38.447 --> 0:07:39.087 what do you think? 0:07:39.167 --> 0:07:40.807 Look, I think there's a number of things, and I 0:07:40.887 --> 0:07:43.887 think number one we are we live in a culture 0:07:43.887 --> 0:07:47.967 where youth is absolutely valued. You know, it's all about 0:07:47.967 --> 0:07:50.407 being young, and once you start to lose your youth, 0:07:50.447 --> 0:07:53.087 you use your value, and especially around women. And one 0:07:53.087 --> 0:07:54.767 of the things that really pissed me off in this 0:07:54.767 --> 0:07:57.407 whole journey was how different the message for men and 0:07:57.447 --> 0:08:00.247 women were. You know, we can tell men are allowed 0:08:00.287 --> 0:08:02.047 to get old, is it allowed to age? You look 0:08:02.087 --> 0:08:05.967 at George Clooney when you think about your filthy fox exactly, 0:08:06.087 --> 0:08:08.887 silver fox, distinguished. These are the words we use when 0:08:08.887 --> 0:08:11.207 we talk about men and aging, and yet for women 0:08:11.207 --> 0:08:13.407 it's always about diminished, like chrone. 0:08:14.207 --> 0:08:15.487 You know, she's let herself. 0:08:15.727 --> 0:08:18.647 Old lady, Yeah, she's let herself go and you know 0:08:18.767 --> 0:08:21.927 that idea that almost done for women getting old or 0:08:21.967 --> 0:08:24.647 looking older is almost kind of like a failure in 0:08:24.687 --> 0:08:28.007 some way, you know, so women are shamed around it, criticized, 0:08:28.087 --> 0:08:32.007 judge shamed. So it's I think a lot of it 0:08:32.047 --> 0:08:35.127 is around one that sort of value. But also I 0:08:35.127 --> 0:08:38.487 think the commercially is quite useful. You know, the whole 0:08:38.527 --> 0:08:42.687 beauty industry is all about focused on keeping women insecure 0:08:42.687 --> 0:08:45.687 about their their looks and especially losing their youth. 0:08:45.767 --> 0:08:46.967 So a lot of. 0:08:47.047 --> 0:08:49.367 Attention on money is put on that, and there's a 0:08:49.367 --> 0:08:51.807 lot of pressure on women, and I really that really 0:08:51.807 --> 0:08:54.007 gets my goat because it's not fair because it doesn't 0:08:54.047 --> 0:08:54.727 happen to men. 0:08:56.647 --> 0:09:01.407 Absolutely. So the idea for Silver Sirens, which is your 0:09:01.407 --> 0:09:05.607 community for women over fifty. As I've heard parts of 0:09:05.647 --> 0:09:08.287 your story, I've heard that it was sort of borne 0:09:08.327 --> 0:09:11.207 out of your second act, as it were, in a way. 0:09:11.767 --> 0:09:14.807 So I'd love you to talk to me a little 0:09:14.847 --> 0:09:17.567 bit about because I know we've as we've discussed we're 0:09:17.647 --> 0:09:19.567 very pro aging. But I've heard you say that you 0:09:19.647 --> 0:09:21.887 did go through a bit of a midlife crisis of 0:09:22.087 --> 0:09:25.367 thoughts that made you decide to make some changes and 0:09:25.367 --> 0:09:27.647 have led you to this place. Can you tell me 0:09:27.687 --> 0:09:28.367 a bit about that. 0:09:28.487 --> 0:09:31.007 Yeah, Look, I had my own midlife crisis, and I 0:09:31.047 --> 0:09:33.767 love what Breno Brown says about midlife crisis, you know, 0:09:33.847 --> 0:09:35.167 sort of seeing that as a crisis. 0:09:35.327 --> 0:09:37.487 We'll just see it as a transition, because that's exactly 0:09:37.487 --> 0:09:37.927 what it is. 0:09:38.207 --> 0:09:40.727 But we don't have any word in around it, so 0:09:40.807 --> 0:09:42.847 most people go through it in silence, and I'm not 0:09:42.887 --> 0:09:45.647 quite sure what they're going through. And from a therapy perspective, 0:09:45.647 --> 0:09:47.807 you know, we have extitity, and we have different markers 0:09:47.807 --> 0:09:49.927 in life, you know, different phases that we go through, 0:09:50.047 --> 0:09:52.167 so midlife is one of them. And the reason why 0:09:52.247 --> 0:09:53.967 for a lot of people feels like a crisis. It's 0:09:54.007 --> 0:09:56.767 like a juncture of a lot of big stresses in life. 0:09:56.807 --> 0:09:59.047 So you know, I'd be changing jobs, or maybe a 0:09:59.127 --> 0:10:02.607 marriage is broken down, or the children are leaving, our elders, 0:10:02.847 --> 0:10:05.487 you know, our older generation. They're getting old and they're sick. 0:10:05.807 --> 0:10:08.247 So there's like this time where there's all these stresses 0:10:08.247 --> 0:10:10.847 happen at the same time, and we don't have anyone 0:10:10.967 --> 0:10:13.607 talking about this. We don't actually know that it's natural. 0:10:13.887 --> 0:10:15.607 So a lot of us do go through a crisis. 0:10:15.607 --> 0:10:18.927 So my personal midlife crisis looked like closing down my 0:10:18.927 --> 0:10:21.007 fashion business that i'd had for fourteen years. 0:10:21.407 --> 0:10:22.447 Didn't have any children. 0:10:22.807 --> 0:10:24.687 Sorry, I was going to say, so when you were younger, 0:10:24.727 --> 0:10:27.607 you were a model, correct model, and then you had 0:10:27.607 --> 0:10:28.887 your own fashion business. 0:10:28.967 --> 0:10:30.007 Yes, I did, and. 0:10:29.927 --> 0:10:33.927 The GFC kind of did came in that, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:10:34.007 --> 0:10:36.367 I was a fashion agent, so I did sales and 0:10:36.367 --> 0:10:39.687 pr for fashion designers in Sydney and yeah, things were 0:10:39.687 --> 0:10:41.367 just we're just struggling for a while, and I probably 0:10:41.407 --> 0:10:43.927 should have walked away years ago, you know before, but 0:10:44.167 --> 0:10:47.607 like a lot of us, I just kept thinking, it's me, 0:10:47.687 --> 0:10:50.127 I'm doing something wrong. I just keep trying, and in 0:10:50.167 --> 0:10:52.207 the end I had no choice but to close the doors. 0:10:52.207 --> 0:10:54.487 And it was really sad, you know, because at the 0:10:54.487 --> 0:10:57.007 time I wasn't in a relationship, I didn't have children, 0:10:57.047 --> 0:10:58.847 so was my late forties, so it was kind of like, 0:10:59.127 --> 0:11:00.087 is this it? 0:11:00.327 --> 0:11:00.527 You know? 0:11:00.687 --> 0:11:03.007 So I did go through a really tough time and 0:11:02.727 --> 0:11:04.967 there was and I fell into depression and it took me, 0:11:05.367 --> 0:11:06.967 you know, a couple of years to kind of climb 0:11:07.047 --> 0:11:09.767 out of that. But that was my midlife crisis, and 0:11:09.807 --> 0:11:11.367 I didn't know that that's what I was having at 0:11:11.407 --> 0:11:15.207 the time, and funny enough, it was coincided with kind 0:11:15.207 --> 0:11:18.007 of a year after I had a hysterectomy, so I 0:11:18.047 --> 0:11:21.607 got pushed into menopause, like I had what was called 0:11:21.687 --> 0:11:24.967 medically induced menopause. Again, I didn't know anything about that 0:11:25.007 --> 0:11:26.687 because there was no one around me that was talking 0:11:26.727 --> 0:11:29.407 about that. And I think that's the challenge around this 0:11:29.487 --> 0:11:31.847 stage for a lot of women is there's no conversations. 0:11:31.927 --> 0:11:34.447 It's changing now because things like what you're doing, you're 0:11:34.527 --> 0:11:37.007 saying God, but then there was no conversation. 0:11:38.367 --> 0:11:40.847 Without wanting to pry too much, you had a hysterectomy 0:11:40.887 --> 0:11:43.967 at that age for you had medical issues that needed 0:11:44.087 --> 0:11:44.807 it was fibros. 0:11:45.167 --> 0:11:48.287 Yeah, yeah, I had fibrous for many, many years, very 0:11:48.367 --> 0:11:49.687 unpainful and very painful. 0:11:49.967 --> 0:11:50.967 And the reasons why. 0:11:50.767 --> 0:11:52.607 I was kind of hanging on to my usurers was 0:11:52.647 --> 0:11:54.927 because I was hoping to eventually have children one day. 0:11:55.047 --> 0:11:57.607 So you know, I probably should have had the hysterectomy, 0:11:57.767 --> 0:12:00.607 probably say, ten years before, but I was just hanging 0:12:00.647 --> 0:12:01.047 in there. 0:12:01.407 --> 0:12:03.967 It's interesting that you say that, and you say I 0:12:03.967 --> 0:12:06.407 should have probably closed the business before I should have. 0:12:06.687 --> 0:12:09.687 I should have hindsights great the building. 0:12:11.847 --> 0:12:12.487 That's so true. 0:12:13.167 --> 0:12:15.247 But also we do hold on to things. We hold 0:12:15.247 --> 0:12:17.607 on to dreams and the things that we've worked hard 0:12:17.687 --> 0:12:21.087 for because you know, we'll and as you just said, 0:12:21.127 --> 0:12:23.287 we kind of think, well maybe if I just try hard. 0:12:24.127 --> 0:12:27.447 So you're at that point in your life you're thinking 0:12:27.487 --> 0:12:31.167 about what's next. I heard you say which I absolutely 0:12:31.247 --> 0:12:34.447 loved that when you were thinking about what your next 0:12:34.567 --> 0:12:37.487 career might be, you wanted to choose something that you 0:12:37.527 --> 0:12:40.967 would get better at rather than something that you'd age 0:12:41.047 --> 0:12:43.647 out of. And I love that because one of the 0:12:43.647 --> 0:12:45.527 things I think about a lot. Now you know, my 0:12:46.247 --> 0:12:48.207 job in the media. I love it. I get to 0:12:48.247 --> 0:12:51.847 have all these meaningful conversations. But you're constantly aware of 0:12:51.887 --> 0:12:54.087 your age, and people are always a bit like how 0:12:54.127 --> 0:12:56.127 long do you think you can do this for? And 0:12:56.167 --> 0:13:00.527 you're sort of thinking, what can I just be valued 0:13:00.567 --> 0:13:04.087 for my wisdom and my insights about rather than like 0:13:04.447 --> 0:13:07.007 picked apart for my age about. So you wanted to 0:13:07.087 --> 0:13:09.207 choose something that you could just grow with and get 0:13:09.487 --> 0:13:11.847 better and you chose psychotherapy. 0:13:11.927 --> 0:13:14.687 Yeah, tell me about that. Well, I chose psychotherapy. But 0:13:14.727 --> 0:13:17.087 like I said, I had three criteria of my new career. 0:13:17.167 --> 0:13:19.167 You know, I'd been in the fashion industry for thirty 0:13:19.207 --> 0:13:22.167 something years. My last job was in PR, so I 0:13:22.207 --> 0:13:25.247 was expected to turn up at events and parties. 0:13:24.847 --> 0:13:26.247 And I didn't want to anymore. 0:13:26.287 --> 0:13:27.647 I just to go home and have a couple of 0:13:27.647 --> 0:13:29.967 tien and be called up in my jamis, you know. 0:13:30.287 --> 0:13:31.927 And so I just thought, you know what, my next 0:13:32.007 --> 0:13:33.807 careers has to be something. One that I get to 0:13:33.847 --> 0:13:36.727 sit down, because fashion you're always running around, two that 0:13:36.767 --> 0:13:39.727 the hourly rate would be high because fashion was not, 0:13:40.487 --> 0:13:42.007 and the third one being I. 0:13:42.007 --> 0:13:43.087 Would get better with age. 0:13:43.087 --> 0:13:44.967 So in fashion, it was clear that I was aging 0:13:45.047 --> 0:13:47.247 out of it, you know, and I wanted to do 0:13:47.327 --> 0:13:50.087 something that I knew every single year, every bit of 0:13:50.087 --> 0:13:53.607 experience I had would actually add value to the work 0:13:53.647 --> 0:13:56.127 that I was doing. And that's exactly why I chose 0:13:56.167 --> 0:13:58.367 that career. And it's proven to be right. And look, 0:13:58.367 --> 0:14:00.247 and I'm going to be sixty this year. I know 0:14:00.367 --> 0:14:02.527 that if I want to, I've got another twenty or 0:14:02.567 --> 0:14:06.207 thirty years because I know psychologists and psychotherapists that are 0:14:06.207 --> 0:14:08.407 in their la eighties and ninety you know, So if 0:14:08.447 --> 0:14:11.127 I wanted to, I could just continue working and I 0:14:11.127 --> 0:14:11.567 get to sit. 0:14:11.487 --> 0:14:15.367 In my rocking chair, you know. And by wisdom. 0:14:15.127 --> 0:14:18.687 Exactly had also had therapy? Been you saying that in 0:14:18.927 --> 0:14:21.087 that your midlife crisis looked like depressions? 0:14:21.207 --> 0:14:21.847 Yeah, for sure? 0:14:21.887 --> 0:14:24.127 Did you turn to therapy? Was that helpful for you? 0:14:24.287 --> 0:14:25.727 Is that part of this decision too? 0:14:25.967 --> 0:14:26.167 Yeah? 0:14:26.247 --> 0:14:26.927 No, that was great. 0:14:26.927 --> 0:14:28.767 Look, I'd always kind of been open to therapy, and 0:14:28.847 --> 0:14:31.167 I've had therapy at different times in my life, you know, 0:14:31.287 --> 0:14:34.087 So it wasn't something that was strange to me, and 0:14:34.167 --> 0:14:35.727 for me, it was a no brainer that I would 0:14:35.767 --> 0:14:37.167 go and get some help, and I would, you know, 0:14:37.207 --> 0:14:39.807 because I know that there's some clarity that happens. It's 0:14:39.807 --> 0:14:42.407 not like someone's going to fix me, but there's something 0:14:42.447 --> 0:14:44.767 that happens when I get to have someone really objective 0:14:45.167 --> 0:14:46.007 get to hear me. 0:14:46.047 --> 0:14:48.007 And reflect back to me what they hear. 0:14:48.367 --> 0:14:49.967 And that's where the key is because a lot of 0:14:49.967 --> 0:14:52.407 people go, well, what what's the benefit of just telling 0:14:52.407 --> 0:14:55.207 someone your problem? But the therapist is actually trained to help 0:14:55.247 --> 0:14:57.927 you reflect and it's the reflection that gives you the awareness. 0:14:58.127 --> 0:14:59.967 Is the awareness that brings a back change. 0:15:00.287 --> 0:15:01.847 To understand a lot of people don't get that. 0:15:02.047 --> 0:15:05.007 So just having those conversations with the therapist and getting 0:15:05.007 --> 0:15:08.687 that clarity and awareness myself really helped me to kind 0:15:08.687 --> 0:15:10.047 of look at because, I mean the time I was 0:15:10.687 --> 0:15:14.247 considering myself as a big failure, you know, and having 0:15:14.527 --> 0:15:16.687 the therapy and talking it through, I realized that wasn't 0:15:16.687 --> 0:15:19.367 actually true. That I'd done lots of amazing things, and 0:15:19.407 --> 0:15:21.967 there were lots of circumstances why the business didn't work, 0:15:22.207 --> 0:15:24.567 But for me, being a failure was actually not part 0:15:24.567 --> 0:15:25.167 of the equation. 0:15:25.407 --> 0:15:25.567 You know. 0:15:25.807 --> 0:15:28.167 I'd spent fourteen years in that business. You know, I 0:15:28.167 --> 0:15:30.367 had lots of staff that I had supported for many, 0:15:30.367 --> 0:15:33.167 many years. I was actually a success, you know, and 0:15:33.207 --> 0:15:34.927 it just didn't work out the way that I thought 0:15:34.927 --> 0:15:35.847 it was going to work out. 0:15:36.087 --> 0:15:36.687 And that's fine. 0:15:36.767 --> 0:15:39.487 That's the problem for most of us when things stopped 0:15:39.527 --> 0:15:42.327 looking the way we want them to look. Instead of 0:15:42.367 --> 0:15:45.047 maybe accessing and thinking maybe it's time to change course, 0:15:45.367 --> 0:15:47.007 we just keep pushing. 0:15:47.047 --> 0:15:49.127 You know. That's one of the biggest things I've learned. 0:15:49.207 --> 0:15:54.487 That's so interesting. And then practicing as a psycho therapist, 0:15:54.807 --> 0:15:57.967 you talking to lots of women, is when you and 0:15:58.087 --> 0:16:00.207 again obviously correct me if I'm wrong. You began to 0:16:00.287 --> 0:16:03.167 notice this like aging anxiety and a lot of your 0:16:03.447 --> 0:16:06.767 female clients you were seeing you were noticing this aging anxiety. 0:16:06.767 --> 0:16:09.727 And this is like the nugget that began to turn 0:16:09.807 --> 0:16:13.367 into silver sirens as I understand it. What did that 0:16:13.447 --> 0:16:16.367 look like, that aging anxiety that the women were talking 0:16:16.367 --> 0:16:16.967 to you about. 0:16:17.167 --> 0:16:19.127 Yeah, you know, well I can still see, you know, 0:16:19.207 --> 0:16:21.687 the one woman that sat across me, she was the 0:16:21.727 --> 0:16:24.807 first one that came to me around aging anxiety. I 0:16:24.847 --> 0:16:28.847 met another of her friend in Byron Bay and she said, look, 0:16:28.887 --> 0:16:30.807 I've got this client that I think you'd love. Because 0:16:30.807 --> 0:16:33.047 we were just talking in general and I was saying about, 0:16:33.167 --> 0:16:35.087 you know, we're just talking. I don't know how aging 0:16:35.127 --> 0:16:37.247 came into the conversation, but it did. And she said, look, 0:16:37.287 --> 0:16:39.847 I've got a friend who's really struggling around this stuff. 0:16:39.887 --> 0:16:41.767 I want to refer to you. And that's kind of 0:16:41.767 --> 0:16:42.727 how it started, you know. 0:16:42.767 --> 0:16:44.927 And the agent anxiety looked like she was a classic 0:16:45.047 --> 0:16:48.167 midlifer in the sense that she just her marriage was 0:16:48.207 --> 0:16:51.007 just about to be over. She was going through a 0:16:51.047 --> 0:16:54.247 lot of angst around you know, what to do next, 0:16:54.567 --> 0:16:57.447 around her career, and then and then the other layer 0:16:57.487 --> 0:16:59.527 of it was all around their physical appearance changing. And 0:16:59.567 --> 0:17:01.247 she said to me, look, I'm so embarrassed to bring 0:17:01.287 --> 0:17:04.007 this up. I've got real big problems. The thing that's 0:17:04.087 --> 0:17:06.207 most painful and the hardest for me is that my 0:17:06.287 --> 0:17:08.487 body's changing and I don't know what's going on and 0:17:08.767 --> 0:17:10.807 anything everything I try, Like I used to go to 0:17:10.847 --> 0:17:12.847 the gym and I could get into shape quickly, and 0:17:12.847 --> 0:17:15.047 that's not happening in my hair, Like what's going on? 0:17:15.127 --> 0:17:17.767 You know, I'm sick of dying it, but like I can't. 0:17:17.807 --> 0:17:20.447 I can't let myself get great, you know. And she's 0:17:20.487 --> 0:17:22.807 felt a lot of shame around that. So we just 0:17:22.847 --> 0:17:25.847 started exploring it. You know, for me, I was exploring 0:17:26.047 --> 0:17:28.687 whose attitude. It was a lot of the beliefs that 0:17:28.727 --> 0:17:31.287 she had when I when I when we probed and said, 0:17:31.407 --> 0:17:33.607 is that your view? Do you think you're less value? 0:17:33.647 --> 0:17:37.007 Because she'll use the words invisible, you know, not so desirable. 0:17:37.247 --> 0:17:40.487 You know, if when this relationship ends, who's gonna want me? 0:17:40.527 --> 0:17:42.247 I'm an old woman, you know, I'm not I'm not 0:17:42.287 --> 0:17:44.127 going to be I'm not attractive anymore, all of those 0:17:44.127 --> 0:17:47.207 sort of things. So we started to explore whose value, 0:17:47.247 --> 0:17:51.447 whose values, and whose views they were, you know, and 0:17:52.007 --> 0:17:55.927 it wasn't actually hers. She'd internalize all of this, most 0:17:55.967 --> 0:17:59.967 of e gendered agism, you know, from everywhere. You know, 0:17:59.967 --> 0:18:02.287 we sometimes think it's just external, but it can be 0:18:02.327 --> 0:18:03.447 our friendships as well. 0:18:03.527 --> 0:18:03.687 You know. 0:18:04.087 --> 0:18:06.407 I think as women too, we can be guilty of 0:18:06.487 --> 0:18:10.447 reinforcing that the agism with each other than even just 0:18:10.487 --> 0:18:11.527 the media and society. 0:18:11.567 --> 0:18:13.287 And that's the bit that I get really upset. 0:18:13.807 --> 0:18:19.087 It's interesting because talking about the surface, as your client 0:18:19.167 --> 0:18:21.247 said to you, she was embarrassed that she was so 0:18:21.327 --> 0:18:24.687 upset about it. Yeah, and I think a lot of 0:18:24.727 --> 0:18:28.207 mid women struggle with that, right, Yeah, is that you're 0:18:28.447 --> 0:18:31.287 You're like, I know it doesn't matter. I know I'm wise, 0:18:33.127 --> 0:18:35.607 and You're like, and I know I'm wise, and I 0:18:35.647 --> 0:18:39.087 know I've lived life and I'm accomplished in whatever I'm doing. 0:18:39.967 --> 0:18:42.087 But when I look in the mirror what I see 0:18:42.247 --> 0:18:45.567 I've been told my whole life that this is not apt. 0:18:46.287 --> 0:18:46.567 Now. 0:18:46.967 --> 0:18:48.647 I know that you, as we said before, you were 0:18:48.687 --> 0:18:51.447 a model, and I mean, you're an exceptionally beautiful woman. 0:18:51.527 --> 0:18:55.767 Of course I've got to say that, But how do 0:18:55.887 --> 0:18:59.407 you get people to unpick that? Because I know that 0:18:59.407 --> 0:19:01.727 as Silver Sirens, you you're very clear that you don't 0:19:01.847 --> 0:19:04.767 judge about if you want to have interventions, if you 0:19:04.807 --> 0:19:06.007 want to do whatever you want to do. If you 0:19:06.047 --> 0:19:08.047 want to spend too much money on serums, if you 0:19:08.087 --> 0:19:12.287 want to get your inject that's fine, But how do 0:19:12.327 --> 0:19:14.367 we do that? On picking that you were just talking 0:19:14.367 --> 0:19:17.087 about between do I think I'm ugly? Or is it 0:19:17.087 --> 0:19:19.847 that everyone else has said I'm ugly? Have you experienced 0:19:19.847 --> 0:19:21.007 that personally at all? 0:19:21.007 --> 0:19:23.127 Not for me? I mean, actually that's actually not true. 0:19:23.207 --> 0:19:24.647 Think I'm glad that you asked me that. 0:19:25.007 --> 0:19:27.647 Have I experienced I've experienced it very little because I 0:19:27.847 --> 0:19:30.447 remember looking at my neck one they going, wow, that's 0:19:30.447 --> 0:19:32.407 got wrinkles. Now. I was kind of fascinated, you know, 0:19:32.447 --> 0:19:34.727 I wasn't freaking out. I was kind of fascinating. I thought, wow, 0:19:34.727 --> 0:19:36.727 this is what it looks like. But I do get 0:19:36.727 --> 0:19:38.167 it a lot. I do see it a lot in 0:19:38.247 --> 0:19:40.527 my in therapy, you know. And it starts to pick again. 0:19:40.527 --> 0:19:44.167 As I said, it's about awareness. How we look is subjective, 0:19:44.527 --> 0:19:47.807 you know. So we all decide that this look young 0:19:47.967 --> 0:19:50.047 is good and oh it is not good, And we 0:19:50.127 --> 0:19:53.967 look at a spectrum of what's acceptably attractive on what's 0:19:54.007 --> 0:19:57.767 not line sing young eighteen or like that's nice. But 0:19:57.847 --> 0:20:00.447 as you get closer and closer to over that end, 0:20:01.047 --> 0:20:03.247 that's the that's the ugly, that's the you don't want 0:20:03.247 --> 0:20:05.207 to be that, and that's the old woman. So the 0:20:05.247 --> 0:20:07.967 old woman is right on the spectrum of what's not attractive. 0:20:08.287 --> 0:20:10.807 So as people are a they're getting unconsciously, they're getting 0:20:10.847 --> 0:20:13.967 closer to that. And that's terrifying because we've all internalized 0:20:13.967 --> 0:20:15.967 that that's something you don't want to be. You certainly 0:20:15.967 --> 0:20:18.007 don't want to look like you're like that, you know, 0:20:18.047 --> 0:20:20.367 and we talked about here and gray and gray is 0:20:20.647 --> 0:20:23.167 usually one of the first markers of moving to that place. 0:20:23.207 --> 0:20:26.847 So women start to get this really deep terror. You 0:20:26.887 --> 0:20:28.807 know that they're going to be completely out of control 0:20:29.167 --> 0:20:32.087 and despite what they do, they're going to be lump 0:20:32.367 --> 0:20:35.767 lumped into this category of no longer attractive, and so 0:20:35.807 --> 0:20:37.327 many doors are going to be closed to them, and 0:20:37.367 --> 0:20:38.447 that's frightening for people. 0:20:38.647 --> 0:20:41.487 It is controls interesting that you said that, because it's 0:20:41.527 --> 0:20:44.687 true about gray hair and wrinkles and the widening waiste 0:20:45.167 --> 0:20:47.847 is that you do begin to feel a little out 0:20:47.847 --> 0:20:51.127 of control, right, And sometimes I wonder if a lot 0:20:51.127 --> 0:20:53.447 of the interventions that we try and do, we're trying 0:20:53.487 --> 0:20:54.687 to wrestle the control that. 0:20:55.247 --> 0:20:59.407 I think so absolutely you know, we're fighting again something 0:20:59.447 --> 0:21:02.447 that really don't have any control over, you know. To 0:21:02.487 --> 0:21:05.087 be clear, there are some aspects of aging that we 0:21:05.127 --> 0:21:07.567 do have control over, there are, you know, And I think. 0:21:07.407 --> 0:21:08.847 That's what's really important. And I love this wort. 0:21:08.847 --> 0:21:11.367 I've just got this book thing, you know, there's lovely. 0:21:11.407 --> 0:21:14.607 So I'm doctor Stephanie Burns. She has a theory around 0:21:14.647 --> 0:21:16.847 agent I love of you on age and she says that, 0:21:17.327 --> 0:21:19.487 you know, we all decide at a particular time in 0:21:19.527 --> 0:21:23.087 our lives that whatever negative things that are happening to 0:21:23.167 --> 0:21:26.767 us as suddenly are now because of our age. So 0:21:26.847 --> 0:21:29.687 we may lose our keys, we may we may you know, 0:21:30.487 --> 0:21:34.487 have aches and creeks in our body. You know, we 0:21:34.567 --> 0:21:37.247 get someone's name, but at certain point in our lives, 0:21:37.327 --> 0:21:40.167 usually in our fifties, we start to attribute that to age. 0:21:40.407 --> 0:21:40.567 You know. 0:21:40.687 --> 0:21:42.967 Then, so there's a mental part of it that that 0:21:43.007 --> 0:21:44.207 we have to really look at. 0:21:46.447 --> 0:21:47.727 Faith and I are going to be back in a 0:21:47.767 --> 0:21:50.287 minute to talk about the moment she knew she wasn't 0:21:50.327 --> 0:21:56.167 going to become a mother. So Silver Sirens was born 0:21:56.287 --> 0:22:00.487 from this observation that you were seeing. And I assume 0:22:00.687 --> 0:22:03.887 that the Silver and the Sirens is about the gray hair. 0:22:04.527 --> 0:22:06.967 It's also tied up with our identity, right is that 0:22:07.047 --> 0:22:09.087 suddenly well, like I didn't think that's who I was. 0:22:09.767 --> 0:22:14.327 Do you encourage the women in your worlds to embrace 0:22:14.367 --> 0:22:17.847 a new identity as an older person, as a silver 0:22:17.967 --> 0:22:20.847 siren or is it more about an evolution of who 0:22:20.887 --> 0:22:21.527 you've always been. 0:22:22.367 --> 0:22:24.047 I think it's a bit of both, you know. I 0:22:24.047 --> 0:22:25.967 mean there's there's a level of acceptance. I mean, the 0:22:26.007 --> 0:22:28.487 thing is, no matter how much surgery you do, how 0:22:28.567 --> 0:22:31.287 much denial there is around it, we're all going to 0:22:31.327 --> 0:22:33.887 get old if we're lucky, you know, And it's a privilege. 0:22:33.927 --> 0:22:36.407 I lost my sister forty one. She didn't have that privilege. 0:22:36.647 --> 0:22:38.847 So we're all going to get old. So it's there's 0:22:38.887 --> 0:22:41.367 a level of acceptance around there's a level of coming 0:22:41.447 --> 0:22:45.167 to terms with that's a natural progression of being human. Okay, 0:22:45.687 --> 0:22:48.247 how we age, However, we do have control to go 0:22:48.287 --> 0:22:50.847 back to old thing we do have control over. So 0:22:51.087 --> 0:22:55.327 for me, it's not about being an age denier. 0:22:54.607 --> 0:22:55.887 Because we're gonna get old. 0:22:56.087 --> 0:22:58.327 But it's kind of like, can I take control of 0:22:58.407 --> 0:23:01.887 how our age instead of dropping into despair and then 0:23:01.967 --> 0:23:04.727 giving up and not trying and trying doesn't have to 0:23:04.727 --> 0:23:06.487 be and going to get botal, but trying to be 0:23:06.847 --> 0:23:08.767 What are the things I have I have control over 0:23:08.767 --> 0:23:11.087 because I aways. So my philosophy around agent is like, 0:23:12.287 --> 0:23:15.647 enhance the opportunities and address the challenges. 0:23:15.807 --> 0:23:18.047 So the challenges might be certain physical things. 0:23:18.047 --> 0:23:20.367 Do I need to do more exercise or exercise in 0:23:20.407 --> 0:23:24.047 a different way, or make sure there's enough movement, or 0:23:24.407 --> 0:23:26.527 do I need to change some of my diet. Those 0:23:26.527 --> 0:23:28.927 are the things you can control, so you take control 0:23:28.927 --> 0:23:31.327 of that, and there's something quite empowering. I see the 0:23:31.367 --> 0:23:33.887 women when they take control of things they can, they 0:23:33.927 --> 0:23:36.607 suddenly have this new zest of life, and the other 0:23:36.647 --> 0:23:40.167 things send to shrink, you know that the despair around 0:23:40.207 --> 0:23:42.087 oh my god, what's going on? And they start to 0:23:42.127 --> 0:23:44.727 feel more vibrant in their bodies and they start to 0:23:44.767 --> 0:23:47.487 shift the focus away from how they look to how 0:23:47.487 --> 0:23:48.207 they feel. 0:23:48.487 --> 0:23:50.687 And that's powerful, That's. 0:23:50.567 --> 0:23:54.287 Really powerful, because that's I noticed it even in myself, 0:23:54.847 --> 0:23:57.967 is that I feel like I've got loads of energy, 0:23:58.207 --> 0:24:00.727 loads of ambition, loads of things I want to do. 0:24:01.207 --> 0:24:03.527 And then sometimes I almost catch myself in the mirror 0:24:03.527 --> 0:24:04.727 and I'm like, but who is that? 0:24:05.087 --> 0:24:05.967 Like? You? 0:24:06.047 --> 0:24:09.527 Like as in your you're getting old now. And I 0:24:09.607 --> 0:24:12.607 wonder also if one of the things that can make 0:24:13.207 --> 0:24:15.487 when when we visibly start to age, we can no 0:24:15.567 --> 0:24:18.407 longer quite like we have to accept the fact that, yeah, right, 0:24:18.647 --> 0:24:22.247 you know, my years are I'm shifting that balance between 0:24:22.327 --> 0:24:26.327 having more years behind me, and sometimes that can be 0:24:26.487 --> 0:24:28.567 very hard if there are areas in your life that 0:24:28.607 --> 0:24:31.247 you've regretted or things you've wished you've done. And I've 0:24:31.247 --> 0:24:34.127 heard you say, you know, like you can still do anything, 0:24:34.167 --> 0:24:35.967 you might not be able to be a ballerina. I 0:24:36.007 --> 0:24:37.847 think I think i've heard you say like in terms 0:24:37.847 --> 0:24:41.807 of a career, but for big life things, it can 0:24:41.847 --> 0:24:43.607 be hard to wrestle with that regret. And I've heard 0:24:43.647 --> 0:24:47.047 you talk about your journey from being what you call 0:24:47.247 --> 0:24:50.847 childless to child free, and I wonder if that is 0:24:50.927 --> 0:24:53.087 something that you've well, I'm sure it's an area you've 0:24:53.127 --> 0:24:56.167 learned a great deal about from that experience. Do you 0:24:56.247 --> 0:24:59.527 mind telling us the story of your journey with becoming 0:24:59.527 --> 0:24:59.927 a mum? 0:25:00.167 --> 0:25:03.007 Yeah, look, I think you know, I love to make 0:25:03.087 --> 0:25:06.527 the distinction between childless and child free because that's what 0:25:06.607 --> 0:25:09.367 I started off as childless. You know, I remember my 0:25:09.407 --> 0:25:10.687 twenties traveling around. 0:25:10.447 --> 0:25:11.087 Europe, you know. 0:25:11.247 --> 0:25:14.327 I I was always an adventure and I loved going 0:25:14.327 --> 0:25:16.607 out there and doing a lot of things. But always 0:25:16.607 --> 0:25:18.487 in my mind was I was going to have children. 0:25:18.567 --> 0:25:20.607 Like it was just I took it for granted. I 0:25:20.687 --> 0:25:22.407 never thought for a moment that it would not be 0:25:22.487 --> 0:25:24.647 open to me. So I kind of charged along and 0:25:24.647 --> 0:25:26.647 did my life. You know. Then I get to my 0:25:27.047 --> 0:25:29.527 late thirties, a relationship that I thought was going to 0:25:29.527 --> 0:25:32.487 become a marriage falls apart, and I'm suddenly in this panic, 0:25:32.527 --> 0:25:35.287 and then I have two or three relationships straight afterward. 0:25:35.367 --> 0:25:36.327 I'm kind of grappling. 0:25:37.247 --> 0:25:39.967 The men were not right, but I just wanted it 0:25:40.047 --> 0:25:42.447 to be, you know, right enough for me to get 0:25:42.527 --> 0:25:45.167 pregnant and have a family, you know. So there was 0:25:45.527 --> 0:25:47.807 all of that scrambling, and then there was all of 0:25:47.847 --> 0:25:50.527 my peers were starting to have children, and there was 0:25:50.567 --> 0:25:53.167 that real loneliness of isolation and where they were all 0:25:53.207 --> 0:25:55.567 forming mother's group and they were having conversations that I 0:25:55.607 --> 0:25:58.047 could not contribute. There was a real sense of being 0:25:58.327 --> 0:26:01.167 pushed out of and it was so painful, you know, 0:26:01.207 --> 0:26:03.607 And I was making really bad choices in men because 0:26:03.647 --> 0:26:05.607 I was so focused on it's going to be the 0:26:05.607 --> 0:26:08.647 one you know. So that was painful. And I was 0:26:08.687 --> 0:26:11.207 forty five, went and I know my then partner, I 0:26:11.207 --> 0:26:13.727 had just gone to have his tests at the IVF 0:26:13.767 --> 0:26:15.887 clinic because we were I just convinced him too, we 0:26:15.967 --> 0:26:18.207 go into therapy, convinced him to agree to have a 0:26:18.287 --> 0:26:21.247 child with me. He just went and had his tests 0:26:21.287 --> 0:26:23.287 the day before, and we were on his balcony. We 0:26:23.287 --> 0:26:25.487 weren't living together, We're on his balcony, and I just 0:26:25.527 --> 0:26:27.207 remember it was like a light bulb moment. I just 0:26:27.247 --> 0:26:30.727 went faith, you're forty five when your child is ten, 0:26:30.767 --> 0:26:32.767 you're going to be fifty five. When your child is twenty, 0:26:32.767 --> 0:26:34.847 you're going to be sixty five. Are you going to 0:26:34.887 --> 0:26:37.767 have the energy? What sort of quality of mother and 0:26:37.767 --> 0:26:39.007 are you're going to give the child? And what sort 0:26:39.007 --> 0:26:40.407 of quality of life are you're going to have. It 0:26:40.447 --> 0:26:43.927 was just suddenly like bang, and I just realized that no, 0:26:44.687 --> 0:26:47.407 the ship had salled. And it was so painful, even 0:26:47.407 --> 0:26:49.567 though it was a clear reality, it was so painful. 0:26:49.767 --> 0:26:51.807 The ship was selled, and I had to go through 0:26:51.847 --> 0:26:54.607 the process of accepting that, and that was really really painful. 0:26:54.687 --> 0:26:56.687 You know, it's a lot of grief around that, this 0:26:57.127 --> 0:26:59.727 thing that I took for granted. It's just never going 0:26:59.727 --> 0:27:02.127 to be an option, you know. So that going through again, 0:27:02.207 --> 0:27:04.687 did some therapy and really processed that grief and pain 0:27:04.727 --> 0:27:07.487 around that, and then I came into this place where 0:27:07.527 --> 0:27:09.567 there was all that acceptance, which is beautiful. What's what 0:27:09.607 --> 0:27:11.447 happens with grief? You know, you land in this space 0:27:11.487 --> 0:27:14.327 of acceptance. And I surveyed and it was like, wow, 0:27:15.087 --> 0:27:17.687 my life now is mine? Yeah, you know, my money 0:27:17.727 --> 0:27:19.167 is mine, like you. 0:27:19.127 --> 0:27:21.207 Know, I don't have to play school fees or college fees, 0:27:21.287 --> 0:27:23.207 it's mine. What do I want to do? 0:27:23.727 --> 0:27:26.687 And then one of the possibility, one of the possibilities there. 0:27:26.647 --> 0:27:27.807 And then things shifted. 0:27:27.847 --> 0:27:29.287 It was like all the friends all in like in 0:27:29.287 --> 0:27:31.607 their mum's group, and this lovely life that they had 0:27:31.727 --> 0:27:34.647 that I envied was suddenly turned around, going, oh my god, 0:27:34.647 --> 0:27:36.807 you're so lucky. Oh my god, you've just done that. 0:27:36.887 --> 0:27:38.407 What if you just done oh my god? You know, 0:27:38.487 --> 0:27:42.807 and suddenly I got this this right sizedness of there's 0:27:42.887 --> 0:27:45.527 there's positive and challenges in both being a mom and 0:27:45.527 --> 0:27:48.647 not being a mom, you know, and I was going 0:27:48.727 --> 0:27:50.767 to do the absolute best that I could. 0:27:50.767 --> 0:27:52.967 That I had this life, this privileged life of. 0:27:52.847 --> 0:27:55.407 Not having to you know, put my life on hold 0:27:55.447 --> 0:27:56.887 for someone else, or sacrifice for one else. 0:27:57.047 --> 0:27:59.047 And there was other ways of mothering. 0:27:59.287 --> 0:28:01.127 Yeah, I've heard you speak about that. 0:28:01.127 --> 0:28:02.327 That's so important. 0:28:02.687 --> 0:28:05.127 What do you when you say other ways of mothering? 0:28:05.567 --> 0:28:07.087 What do you What does that mean to you? 0:28:07.287 --> 0:28:07.487 Yeah? 0:28:07.527 --> 0:28:10.767 Okay, Well, for me, I believe that I'm a natural nurturer, 0:28:11.047 --> 0:28:15.127 you know, and I think building communities. Yeah, you know, 0:28:15.207 --> 0:28:17.487 so that's for me. So for me, what are the 0:28:17.567 --> 0:28:18.567 qualities of mothering? 0:28:18.687 --> 0:28:18.887 You know? 0:28:19.047 --> 0:28:23.607 For me, it's it's unconditional love, it's care, it's mothers 0:28:23.607 --> 0:28:26.327 are always sacrificed and always thinking about not someone. I 0:28:26.367 --> 0:28:30.207 feel that sacrifice a bit negative, but always considering the 0:28:30.247 --> 0:28:32.927 well being and needs of other people, you know. And 0:28:32.927 --> 0:28:34.687 I find for me it's something that I love doing. 0:28:34.727 --> 0:28:36.687 I get to do it in my therapy, you know. 0:28:37.207 --> 0:28:40.327 And some people believe the therapy is almost one of 0:28:40.327 --> 0:28:42.287 the roles of the therapist is is playing the role 0:28:42.327 --> 0:28:44.407 of the good mother. A lot of people have challenges 0:28:44.407 --> 0:28:46.767 around their mother, but you come in and you play 0:28:46.807 --> 0:28:47.207 that role. 0:28:47.207 --> 0:28:48.607 You model what that would look like. 0:28:48.647 --> 0:28:50.767 So you're giving them a some sort of unconditional love 0:28:50.807 --> 0:28:53.607 and acceptance. And you know, in the relationships they get 0:28:53.607 --> 0:28:55.767 to see that. So in that way, I get to 0:28:55.807 --> 0:28:58.847 mother for sure. I get to mother in my friendships 0:28:59.087 --> 0:29:01.527 a lot, because I'm definitely the person who if someone's said, 0:29:01.607 --> 0:29:04.647 I'm bringing the castle role, you know, and having a 0:29:04.647 --> 0:29:07.007 community like civil science, I had absolutely no idea that 0:29:07.047 --> 0:29:08.767 I was actually building. I thought I was building the 0:29:08.767 --> 0:29:10.687 community for other women. But I was built in the 0:29:10.687 --> 0:29:12.887 community that I need that I'm going to grow into, 0:29:13.327 --> 0:29:15.647 you know, interesting, and there's so much mothering in that. 0:29:16.447 --> 0:29:19.527 I think there's so much wisdom in like everything he 0:29:19.687 --> 0:29:24.367 just said. But what the talking about that very painful 0:29:24.407 --> 0:29:27.967 moment of letting go of this dream and then that 0:29:28.087 --> 0:29:31.247 coming into an acceptance. If there's anyone listening to this 0:29:32.047 --> 0:29:36.247 who's wrestled with that and going, I don't feel like 0:29:36.287 --> 0:29:38.927 I'm there yet, Like I'm still in the sadness of 0:29:38.967 --> 0:29:44.407 what I didn't get, the life I didn't get to have. Obviously, 0:29:44.487 --> 0:29:47.447 you've said therapy helps a lot. Is there something that 0:29:47.527 --> 0:29:49.527 you would share with them that would help them through that? 0:29:49.727 --> 0:29:50.247 Do you think? 0:29:50.607 --> 0:29:53.767 Look, I think the thing around time, I know it's 0:29:53.767 --> 0:29:56.607 not sexy. 0:29:56.167 --> 0:29:59.367 Time, you know, and the thing is honor where you're at. 0:29:59.487 --> 0:30:01.607 You know, I'm really glad that I didn't have any 0:30:01.807 --> 0:30:06.727 kind of pretend Pollyanna, you know, spiritual emotional bypassing, where 0:30:06.727 --> 0:30:09.087 I've just kind of pretended I was okay before I was, 0:30:09.487 --> 0:30:12.127 you know, it took time, and I'm really glad. So 0:30:12.167 --> 0:30:14.687 I allowed myself to go there, allowed myself to own 0:30:14.727 --> 0:30:18.087 the pain, allowed myself to own the jealousy that I had, 0:30:18.087 --> 0:30:20.407 and I sort of thinking myself as a jealous person, 0:30:20.447 --> 0:30:23.607 but I felt jealous, you know. So I allowed myself 0:30:23.727 --> 0:30:25.607 just to own all of that. And I think that's 0:30:25.647 --> 0:30:27.767 the thing. Don't much try and make yourself feel bad 0:30:27.807 --> 0:30:30.327 for all the feelings that you're having one of them. 0:30:30.247 --> 0:30:32.887 That's natural, you know. And have a safe space to 0:30:32.887 --> 0:30:33.207 share it. 0:30:33.207 --> 0:30:34.567 Doesn't have to be a therapist, but just have a 0:30:34.567 --> 0:30:36.487 couple of good friends that you can just go and 0:30:36.527 --> 0:30:38.567 share it with and not feel judged, you know. And 0:30:38.567 --> 0:30:41.247 I think that's what's really important. Just give yourself time 0:30:41.287 --> 0:30:43.527 and just keep being kind to yourself through the process. 0:30:46.327 --> 0:30:48.767 When we come back, Faith tells me about whether we're 0:30:48.807 --> 0:30:52.127 getting better at understanding that happiness looks different for every 0:30:52.127 --> 0:30:57.847 woman stay with us. Do you think that in general 0:30:57.887 --> 0:31:00.807 and culture we're getting better at understanding that there are 0:31:00.847 --> 0:31:03.967 lots of different ways to have a successful, happy life 0:31:04.007 --> 0:31:06.367 as a woman, and it's not all about the picket 0:31:06.367 --> 0:31:08.367 fence and the babies. Do you think we're getting better 0:31:08.367 --> 0:31:08.607 at that? 0:31:09.007 --> 0:31:10.807 Think? So? I mean, I think you can see that everywhere. 0:31:10.807 --> 0:31:12.487 I mean, the amount of people that are not having 0:31:12.567 --> 0:31:15.047 children is growing more and more. And we know that's 0:31:15.087 --> 0:31:17.447 only that's figures only getting bigger, you know. So I 0:31:17.487 --> 0:31:19.487 think that we're kind of accepting that you can have 0:31:19.527 --> 0:31:22.007 a fulfilling life without it looking like the cookie cutter 0:31:22.087 --> 0:31:23.527 that we've been told that they have to look like 0:31:23.607 --> 0:31:26.447 this for it to be a successful life. That's changing, 0:31:26.687 --> 0:31:28.807 and I think that's really exciting, you know. And I 0:31:28.847 --> 0:31:31.247 think that, I mean, I always say, the human beings, 0:31:31.287 --> 0:31:33.287 we're not in danger of being extinct. It's okay some 0:31:33.327 --> 0:31:35.087 of us are opt out of having children. You know, 0:31:35.407 --> 0:31:36.527 there are money of the mound. 0:31:37.447 --> 0:31:40.367 There are I also really love that when we were 0:31:40.487 --> 0:31:43.047 talking before about your decisions about what to do with 0:31:43.127 --> 0:31:45.687 this next phase of your life and your decision about 0:31:45.687 --> 0:31:49.047 your career change, you mentioned money, which I really liked 0:31:49.047 --> 0:31:50.607 that you did that. And I've seen you talk about 0:31:50.647 --> 0:31:53.287 that and some of your videos and things about goals 0:31:53.367 --> 0:31:57.847 because sometimes it seems a bit like frowned upon almost 0:31:57.847 --> 0:32:00.487 for women to talk about money, like we're supposed we 0:32:00.527 --> 0:32:02.567 do everything because we love it and we do everything, 0:32:02.687 --> 0:32:05.367 you know, for other people and blah blah blah. But 0:32:05.487 --> 0:32:09.687 financial security, particularly as you age, is really important. So 0:32:10.487 --> 0:32:12.647 the fact that you even will say, like I knew 0:32:12.647 --> 0:32:14.567 I wanted to choose a job that would pay me 0:32:14.607 --> 0:32:17.247 well enough to be able for me to have like, 0:32:16.567 --> 0:32:21.967 that's that's really important. Do you encourage women who you 0:32:22.007 --> 0:32:24.567 work with to think about that too, and do you 0:32:24.567 --> 0:32:25.967 think about finance? 0:32:26.247 --> 0:32:28.167 I challenged them a lot, you know, because a lot 0:32:28.167 --> 0:32:30.087 of women will come to me they'll have some problems 0:32:30.127 --> 0:32:32.167 around money. I mean, I've got so many clients who 0:32:32.847 --> 0:32:36.527 and separation and divorce were completely shafted, you know, because 0:32:36.567 --> 0:32:38.687 they didn't know what was really going on in their 0:32:38.687 --> 0:32:41.007 financial life and their husband took care of it. And 0:32:41.647 --> 0:32:43.767 I'm shocked the whistle has saying that. But that's still 0:32:43.767 --> 0:32:45.567 the case for a lot of women, you know. So 0:32:45.607 --> 0:32:47.607 a lot of them come and they've worked all their 0:32:47.647 --> 0:32:50.527 lives and you know, brought up the kids, and now 0:32:50.567 --> 0:32:54.087 they've left with literally nothing, you know. So I'm onto it, 0:32:54.167 --> 0:32:57.247 and I really talk to my clients. I challenged them around, 0:32:57.767 --> 0:32:59.727 you know, not being afraid to have the conversation. 0:32:59.967 --> 0:33:01.327 I poke them, you know. 0:33:01.447 --> 0:33:03.327 And I do it a lot with Silver Sirens as well. 0:33:03.367 --> 0:33:06.327 And I try and be super transparent with Silver Sirens too, 0:33:06.327 --> 0:33:08.287 because I pay for pretty much. 0:33:08.327 --> 0:33:08.487 You know. 0:33:08.527 --> 0:33:11.487 Everything's not very white is a community that I'm funding. 0:33:11.567 --> 0:33:14.047 So it used to feel quite shameful for me to 0:33:14.047 --> 0:33:16.007 own it, and I just thought, no, it's not realistic. 0:33:16.047 --> 0:33:17.967 I'm not going to pretend to be where I'm not. 0:33:18.007 --> 0:33:20.247 I'm going to say what's going on, you know. So 0:33:20.327 --> 0:33:22.927 I've always tried to model that, and you know, through 0:33:23.247 --> 0:33:26.007 through our content that we create as well and the resources. 0:33:26.087 --> 0:33:28.087 I always try and make sure that we have money 0:33:28.127 --> 0:33:30.087 experts to come in and talk to the women about 0:33:30.087 --> 0:33:34.167 money often, you know, and we try and now we 0:33:34.447 --> 0:33:37.527 separate our content into mounmth so June because it's the 0:33:37.607 --> 0:33:40.807 end of financially in Australia that's all focused on finances, 0:33:40.807 --> 0:33:43.327 and we've got loads of amazing experts now on board 0:33:43.447 --> 0:33:45.167 to talk to the women because I want the women 0:33:45.207 --> 0:33:48.647 to be empowered. We support the Older Women's Network their 0:33:48.687 --> 0:33:52.327 homelessness program and I feel so passionate about that because 0:33:52.367 --> 0:33:55.407 women have a fifty are the fastest growing coco and homelessness, 0:33:55.487 --> 0:33:57.807 and we have to do something about that. And part 0:33:57.807 --> 0:33:59.767 of that is awareness and we have to talk about 0:33:59.807 --> 0:34:01.567 it is the women know, and a lot of women 0:34:01.767 --> 0:34:05.127 that are ashamed so they don't even say to anybody 0:34:05.167 --> 0:34:07.007 that they're sleeping in their cars. 0:34:07.007 --> 0:34:11.607 Scary, it's really scary sometimes. I mean it's a stereotype. 0:34:11.607 --> 0:34:14.767 But women are resilient, right, we push on, we get 0:34:14.807 --> 0:34:17.047 things done, We make the most of it, like you know, 0:34:17.127 --> 0:34:20.327 make the most of a situation. But you know, you 0:34:20.327 --> 0:34:23.327 can only be so resilient when you need to actually 0:34:23.407 --> 0:34:25.087 be saying I'm not coping. 0:34:25.207 --> 0:34:26.007 Yeah, I'm not coping. 0:34:26.087 --> 0:34:28.567 That's exactly I've also heard you say. And I want 0:34:28.687 --> 0:34:31.087 you to obviously tell me more about Silver Sirens, but 0:34:31.127 --> 0:34:33.967 that one of the things that when you've asked your community, 0:34:34.167 --> 0:34:36.167 and I assume this is through your work as well, 0:34:36.767 --> 0:34:39.727 loneliness is a massive thing that came up. I found 0:34:39.727 --> 0:34:42.607 that quite surprising. We're not surprising, but I think there 0:34:42.647 --> 0:34:44.167 was a stat I was reading you were saying something 0:34:44.167 --> 0:34:46.287 like seventy percent of the women you were said that 0:34:46.367 --> 0:34:50.407 loneliness and connection or lack of connection was one of 0:34:50.447 --> 0:34:54.127 the biggest things. What do you think is behind that? 0:34:54.367 --> 0:34:56.847 And do you think that's also you know, we were 0:34:56.847 --> 0:35:00.167 talking about cultural differences and how you know, in our 0:35:00.207 --> 0:35:03.367 culture where we're scared of age and we don't value 0:35:03.447 --> 0:35:08.247 necessarily our elders as much, why do you think this 0:35:08.367 --> 0:35:10.127 cohort can feel so isolated? 0:35:11.127 --> 0:35:12.847 You know, as people are aging, you know, it's that 0:35:12.927 --> 0:35:15.487 thing of they start to recede and disappear. You know, 0:35:15.727 --> 0:35:20.287 we have those multi generational cultures where everyone is brought in, 0:35:20.407 --> 0:35:22.527 you know, no matter what your age, every single member 0:35:22.527 --> 0:35:25.167 of the family is kind of included, whereas now it's 0:35:25.167 --> 0:35:26.967 almost like you get past a certain age and you're 0:35:27.007 --> 0:35:29.887 no longer invited to things or people forget about you. 0:35:29.887 --> 0:35:32.007 You know, and a lot of people too, you know, 0:35:32.047 --> 0:35:34.687 they move away, or friends are dying, friends are moving away. 0:35:34.727 --> 0:35:37.247 There's there again, is that there's a lot of different 0:35:37.287 --> 0:35:41.167 factors that cause that. But again, when people find themselves 0:35:41.207 --> 0:35:43.327 in that situation, they don't talk about it, nor do 0:35:43.367 --> 0:35:45.327 they freach out a lot of you know, when we 0:35:45.327 --> 0:35:48.047 first started exploring the loneliness, I started to have these 0:35:48.527 --> 0:35:51.967 monthly virtual Silver Connection lunches I call them, and we know, 0:35:52.047 --> 0:35:54.007 we get together and we bring food, and you know, 0:35:54.047 --> 0:35:56.127 that's how the process started. And a lot of the 0:35:56.167 --> 0:35:58.007 women just say they felt a lot of shame around 0:35:58.087 --> 0:36:00.567 telling people that they felt lonely, you know. And we 0:36:00.607 --> 0:36:03.687 also did a loneliness town hall where we just you know, 0:36:03.967 --> 0:36:06.287 just open it up and people we've lived experiences, this 0:36:06.367 --> 0:36:07.927 is a safe space for you to tell us what 0:36:07.927 --> 0:36:08.487 that felt like. 0:36:08.767 --> 0:36:09.887 A lot of people what it was shame. 0:36:10.447 --> 0:36:13.167 You know, my friends have moved away all of this, 0:36:13.367 --> 0:36:15.927 I've lost all of my contact, but I'm scared to 0:36:15.967 --> 0:36:18.647 reach out. I'm scared to tell anybody. I feel shamed 0:36:18.687 --> 0:36:21.447 to tell anybody that I feel like this. So then 0:36:21.487 --> 0:36:24.167 they'll just withdraw and isolate and try and figure it 0:36:24.167 --> 0:36:26.247 out by themselves, and their lives just gets shots and 0:36:26.287 --> 0:36:28.887 the more shrunk and less and more more isolated. 0:36:29.447 --> 0:36:30.687 It's very sad to see. 0:36:30.887 --> 0:36:33.687 I always remember my mother in law. She's not with 0:36:33.767 --> 0:36:36.727 us anymore, but she described it very clearly to me 0:36:37.367 --> 0:36:39.127 of what she didn't want to happen to her, but 0:36:39.447 --> 0:36:42.207 that she said, I saw my mother's life go from 0:36:42.287 --> 0:36:44.727 being out in the world with all these connections to 0:36:44.847 --> 0:36:48.007 literally shrinking to her kitchen, like because she was literally 0:36:48.047 --> 0:36:50.567 sitting at her kitchen table twenty four to seven, and 0:36:50.607 --> 0:36:54.127 it was a very stark visual picture for me as. 0:36:54.287 --> 0:36:55.927 Of what the shrinking of your life. 0:36:56.007 --> 0:37:00.127 Yeah, so obviously your silver sirens in your community. You're 0:37:00.247 --> 0:37:04.687 very much about connecting, Yeah, bringing the women together. What 0:37:04.847 --> 0:37:08.807 do you love most about spending time with women in 0:37:08.847 --> 0:37:10.287 this face of their lives? 0:37:10.927 --> 0:37:13.927 Look, I think the laughter, you know, and we talk about, 0:37:13.967 --> 0:37:15.567 you know, a fewer folks to give, you know, we 0:37:15.607 --> 0:37:18.767 talk about that, and that gets better as you age. 0:37:18.807 --> 0:37:21.687 You know, I'm sixty next, and I'm expecting to be 0:37:21.927 --> 0:37:24.607 dropping more fucks next every. 0:37:24.407 --> 0:37:26.567 Birthday, every birthday, you know. 0:37:26.727 --> 0:37:29.007 But I think there's a there's an honesty you know 0:37:29.047 --> 0:37:31.367 that happens. And when we have our monthly lunches, you know, 0:37:31.407 --> 0:37:33.047 we do a talking stick thing where we go around 0:37:33.087 --> 0:37:35.007 the room. We do five minute stage and we talk 0:37:35.567 --> 0:37:38.607 and you really see the women are very open and 0:37:38.607 --> 0:37:41.167 they're very vulnerable, and they're very real, and there's a 0:37:41.327 --> 0:37:44.367 richness in what they share, you know, and there's a 0:37:44.367 --> 0:37:46.967 lot of laughter. There's something about again, it is that 0:37:46.967 --> 0:37:49.607 thing where we take ourselves less seriously and we're not 0:37:49.687 --> 0:37:52.287 so confined in this idea that I can't say that 0:37:52.327 --> 0:37:55.247 because I don't want people to you know, to judge me, 0:37:55.447 --> 0:37:58.007 or you know, that idea that we want that image 0:37:58.087 --> 0:38:00.887 management and we get so stuck in I think my twenties, 0:38:00.967 --> 0:38:03.247 thirties on some of my forties were so stuck in 0:38:03.247 --> 0:38:06.207 that image management. That drops away, so you get to 0:38:06.207 --> 0:38:09.807 see real people. So the connections are meaning for the deep. 0:38:09.847 --> 0:38:12.687 They're rich, you know, and I walk away always feeling 0:38:12.727 --> 0:38:15.487 fed by those You know, something very beautiful about it. 0:38:15.527 --> 0:38:17.327 If you ever came to a civil sarer's event, that's 0:38:17.327 --> 0:38:19.367 one thing you get straight away you walk through the door. 0:38:19.567 --> 0:38:21.367 It's almost like I always say, you feel like it's 0:38:21.407 --> 0:38:23.327 like it's like collectively. 0:38:22.807 --> 0:38:24.047 We all take off our bras. 0:38:25.327 --> 0:38:28.607 You just feel that you know, and everyone just relaxes, 0:38:28.647 --> 0:38:30.207 and it's that this is who I am. And I 0:38:30.247 --> 0:38:33.567 always get that feedback. It's like I'm totally accepted for 0:38:33.607 --> 0:38:35.727 who I am, and for once, I don't have to 0:38:36.287 --> 0:38:37.847 suck in my guard I don't have to do anything. 0:38:37.887 --> 0:38:39.407 I can just relax completely. 0:38:39.447 --> 0:38:43.207 And I love that when you look so as you said, 0:38:43.247 --> 0:38:45.847 you're turning sixty six in a few months, which is 0:38:46.047 --> 0:38:49.207 you know, no age at all, when you with all 0:38:49.447 --> 0:38:51.727 your experience and from where you began, as you were 0:38:51.727 --> 0:38:55.367 saying of everyone wanted to be the old, the older person, 0:38:55.407 --> 0:38:58.367 the elder, the wise. When you look at your what 0:38:58.447 --> 0:39:02.087 I call like your proper old age, Like what kind 0:39:02.127 --> 0:39:03.927 of elder do you want to be? What do you 0:39:04.047 --> 0:39:07.127 see in twenty thirty years? 0:39:07.127 --> 0:39:10.207 So I know I often talk about being an elder 0:39:10.247 --> 0:39:12.527 in training, you know, and it's it's a badge of 0:39:12.567 --> 0:39:15.727 honor for me, you know. And I think that my sixties, 0:39:16.047 --> 0:39:19.607 this decade, I really want it to be about intentional aging, 0:39:19.847 --> 0:39:21.687 you know. And what that looks like for me is 0:39:21.727 --> 0:39:24.767 I think we can kind of run through our lives 0:39:24.767 --> 0:39:26.247 and we've got a few goals here and there, but 0:39:26.327 --> 0:39:30.687 we're not intentional about how the people were becoming. So 0:39:30.767 --> 0:39:34.407 for me, I want to be intentionally agent. And again, 0:39:34.447 --> 0:39:37.727 doctor Stephanie Burns talks about, you know, she reminds us 0:39:37.727 --> 0:39:40.167 that from the age of twenty to fifty, we've lived 0:39:40.327 --> 0:39:43.567 thirty years, and so many things happen in those thirty years. 0:39:43.727 --> 0:39:46.567 Now from fifty to eighty, we're repeating. 0:39:46.087 --> 0:39:48.047 The same amount of time, so we're going to have 0:39:48.047 --> 0:39:50.847 the same amount of possibilities and adventures, you know. So 0:39:50.927 --> 0:39:53.407 when I think that that, yeah, when I think about that, 0:39:53.487 --> 0:39:56.487 I think I did so much in my twenties to fifty, like, 0:39:56.727 --> 0:40:00.167 how can I replicate that? But in you know, reflecting 0:40:00.207 --> 0:40:04.007 to where I'm going. So I think about very much 0:40:04.047 --> 0:40:07.327 being intentional ager and age and elder in training. I 0:40:07.367 --> 0:40:09.167 think about what sort of elder do I want to be, 0:40:09.767 --> 0:40:12.567 you know? And I want to stay curious, you know, 0:40:12.767 --> 0:40:15.167 and for like ever learning, ever grow. And I think 0:40:15.247 --> 0:40:16.807 one of the things that I see the people that 0:40:16.847 --> 0:40:20.087 are struggling with aging is that curiosity is not there. 0:40:20.367 --> 0:40:22.527 There's a sense that they've done everything they're supposed to do. 0:40:22.607 --> 0:40:23.487 Now they're waiting. 0:40:24.167 --> 0:40:24.367 You know. 0:40:24.407 --> 0:40:27.047 We're almost like I don't fit in the world anymore 0:40:27.167 --> 0:40:30.487 because it's made for the young people whatever. Yes, And 0:40:30.527 --> 0:40:33.287 it's almost like your self select that you're out of 0:40:33.327 --> 0:40:34.127 it rather than in. 0:40:34.127 --> 0:40:36.767 It exactly, So how do we stay in it? So 0:40:36.847 --> 0:40:40.247 intentional aging for me is staying very much connected with life. 0:40:40.447 --> 0:40:42.567 I don't think about it as being relevant. And sometimes 0:40:42.687 --> 0:40:44.887 I hear the conversation I relevance that just annoys me 0:40:44.927 --> 0:40:47.527 because I don't think we should be trying to be relevant. 0:40:47.527 --> 0:40:48.247 I think if we're just. 0:40:48.367 --> 0:40:52.087 Being and living life with curiosity, it's not about being relevant. 0:40:52.447 --> 0:40:53.767 What does it really mean? 0:40:53.967 --> 0:40:56.527 Because I mean I say that about myself. Sometimes I'm like, 0:40:56.527 --> 0:40:58.687 oh my god, am I becoming irrelevant? And then but 0:40:58.687 --> 0:40:59.767 what does that mean? 0:41:00.087 --> 0:41:02.687 Yeah, it's just another label that just again it constricts. 0:41:02.687 --> 0:41:05.847 It's like the same as invisibility, you know. So for me, 0:41:05.967 --> 0:41:10.287 it's really I think our biggest role as elders is 0:41:10.527 --> 0:41:13.847 mentoring and being role models for the younger generation. I 0:41:13.847 --> 0:41:18.607 think if we hide, disappear, shrink, we're not showing young 0:41:18.647 --> 0:41:20.927 women that there's a lot to live for and they've 0:41:20.967 --> 0:41:22.847 got this vibrant life ahead of us, and I think 0:41:22.847 --> 0:41:25.967 it's a responsibility for us to show them the kind 0:41:25.967 --> 0:41:28.087 of lives they can live, you know. And I take 0:41:28.127 --> 0:41:29.287 that really seriously. 0:41:29.647 --> 0:41:31.407 Like when you are talking at the beginning of our 0:41:31.447 --> 0:41:34.527 conversation today about your mom, is your mom still with us? 0:41:34.567 --> 0:41:36.287 She is, yeah, And how is she doing now? 0:41:36.487 --> 0:41:40.287 She's ata Well, she's not the sort of elder that 0:41:40.287 --> 0:41:41.807 she would have liked to be because she had some 0:41:41.847 --> 0:41:44.567 health issues which really slowed her down. You know, so 0:41:44.607 --> 0:41:47.887 in terms of physical you know, mobility, it's quite as 0:41:47.967 --> 0:41:49.887 more restrictive than she would be. She's always been quite 0:41:49.887 --> 0:41:52.447 an active person, but she got ill about five years ago, 0:41:52.567 --> 0:41:55.047 and that kind of really derailed her health. But in 0:41:55.127 --> 0:41:58.247 terms of mental health, she's as sharp as a whistle. 0:41:58.447 --> 0:42:01.367 She's still the person that everyone talks goes to. You know, 0:42:01.407 --> 0:42:04.527 she's a matriarch and very much the center of our family. 0:42:04.807 --> 0:42:08.167 Yeah, oh well, I'm very happy to hear that. 0:42:08.767 --> 0:42:09.047 Faith. 0:42:09.047 --> 0:42:10.887 It's been amazing to talk to you today. 0:42:11.327 --> 0:42:12.687 I feel fool I love. 0:42:12.847 --> 0:42:15.247 Yeah, I loved it. I love there are so many 0:42:15.287 --> 0:42:23.287 things I'm gonna have to slow down and think about that. Look, 0:42:23.327 --> 0:42:26.367 if you loved this episode, and I obviously love talking 0:42:26.407 --> 0:42:30.247 to Faith, I think I particularly found a lot of 0:42:31.047 --> 0:42:34.807 revelation in that honest conversation about what happens when you 0:42:34.847 --> 0:42:36.807 don't get what you want, which has happened to all 0:42:36.887 --> 0:42:39.567 of us in very different ways, and how you deal 0:42:39.607 --> 0:42:43.007 with it, and her honesty around the midlife crisis and 0:42:43.047 --> 0:42:46.807 what came next. And if you want more conversations of 0:42:46.847 --> 0:42:50.007 that level of honesty and intelligence, I encourage you to 0:42:50.047 --> 0:42:52.807 flick back through mid because we've got loads of them. 0:42:53.567 --> 0:42:57.207 Listen to Christine Anau, who I spoke to in season 0:42:57.287 --> 0:43:01.167 one about She talks really honestly about the mistakes that 0:43:01.207 --> 0:43:04.247 she made as a mother and how sometimes your adult 0:43:04.327 --> 0:43:06.127 kids will turn around and talk to you about them, 0:43:06.367 --> 0:43:08.767 and again you just have to accept what is rather 0:43:08.767 --> 0:43:11.327 than what you think think should be. To Gina Chick, 0:43:11.807 --> 0:43:15.807 who lived through the unimaginable of losing her little daughter 0:43:15.967 --> 0:43:19.527 and about how she reimagined her life after that. And 0:43:19.727 --> 0:43:23.567 with Ali Daddo, who, like Faith, was a model who's 0:43:24.047 --> 0:43:25.887 you know, a lot of her life and self worth 0:43:26.007 --> 0:43:28.047 was caught up with what she looked like when she 0:43:28.127 --> 0:43:30.527 was younger and what does that feel like to let 0:43:30.567 --> 0:43:33.807 go of as you get older. All of those conversations 0:43:33.807 --> 0:43:35.807 you can find in our mid feed if you just 0:43:35.847 --> 0:43:38.527 slick back. I can't thank you all enough for being 0:43:38.567 --> 0:43:41.847 here with us as we have these meaningful conversations that 0:43:41.887 --> 0:43:44.327 hopefully make you laugh a little bit too. We're going 0:43:44.407 --> 0:43:46.447 to be back in your ears next week and until then, 0:43:46.527 --> 0:43:50.967 big thanks to our team Executive producer Nama Brown, senior 0:43:51.007 --> 0:43:55.447 producer Grace Rufray, our producer Tarlie Blackman, and our audio 0:43:55.487 --> 0:43:58.287 producer Jacob Brown. See you next week.