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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on.

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Speaker 2: It's a regular Tuesday evening in Sydney in July twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: and Tracy Hall is getting worried. She hasn't heard from

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Speaker 2: her boyfriend of eighteen months, Max since early that morning.

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Speaker 2: In her rush to get her daughter Asher to gymnastics camp.

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Speaker 2: It's the school holidays. She missed a morning phone call

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Speaker 2: from him, but she hasn't heard back from him since,

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Speaker 2: despite multiple text and calls.

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Speaker 1: You're okay, babe, I'm worried about.

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Speaker 2: You, she writes at seven pm. Nothing.

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Speaker 1: Please tell me you're okay.

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Speaker 2: She writes at eight fourteen pm, no reply. Maybe he's hurt.

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Speaker 2: She starts to worry, frantically googling Max Ta Vita Shark

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Speaker 2: attack into Google. He's a keen surfer. What if he

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Speaker 2: got taken. After a restless night's sleep, Tracy awakes to

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Speaker 2: no messages from Max. Something is not right. He always messages.

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Speaker 2: He never just goes to her like this. She calls

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Speaker 2: the police and asks them to do a welfare check.

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Speaker 2: She tries to call his brother in law, his surfing mate,

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Speaker 2: anyone she can think of from his life. Then her

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Speaker 2: phone rings. It's not him, it's her friend calf Trace.

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Speaker 2: She says, I'm going to send you a link to

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Speaker 2: a news article and then I want you to call

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Speaker 2: me back straight away. Hands shaking, Tracy opens the link.

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Speaker 2: She sees Max in handcuffs being led out of his

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Speaker 2: Bondai apartment. Except his name isn't Max. It's Hamish McLaren

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Speaker 2: and as Tracy is about to find out, he's one

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Speaker 2: of Australia's most successful con men. I'm Jemma Bass and

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Speaker 2: this is True Crime Conversations Amom of mea podcast exploring

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Speaker 2: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people

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Speaker 2: who know the most about them. Hamish McLaren has been

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Speaker 2: known by multiple names. Often he'd just changed his last name,

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Speaker 2: but with Tracy, he changed his first name too. His

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Speaker 2: ability and skill in being able to assume various personas

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Speaker 2: allowed him to defraud victims of their money for more

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Speaker 2: than thirty years before he finally saw the inside of

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Speaker 2: a prison cell. He was convicted for sophisticated romance and

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Speaker 2: investment scams against fifteen victims to the tune of seven

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Speaker 2: point six million dollars, but it's believed he swindled many

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Speaker 2: more than that, and that the actual amount he stole

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Speaker 2: is more likely to be between sixty and one hundred million.

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Speaker 2: Tracy was his last victim in total, she handed over

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Speaker 2: three hundred and seventeen thousand dollars for his dramatic arrest.

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Speaker 2: But he didn't just financially destroy her. He made her

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Speaker 2: fall in love with him, and when it all came

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Speaker 2: crashing down, single mum, Tracy was left psychologically and emotionally broken.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, she wrote a book called The

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Speaker 2: Last Victim, detailing her story, and she joins us now Tracy.

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Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen, at the age of forty, you joined

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Speaker 2: a dating app. Well, where were you at in your

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Speaker 2: life when you decided to make that decision?

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Speaker 1: Well, to set the scene, I had been separated from

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Speaker 1: my husband for just over a year, and earlier in

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Speaker 1: that process, I'd moved my daughter and I out of

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Speaker 1: the family home into an apartment near the beach, and

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Speaker 1: I'd spent that year sort of getting myself on track again.

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Speaker 1: And it was early twenty sixteen, and I, you know,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't looking for another husband. I wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: have any more children at that point, and I just thought,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'd really like a companion. I'd really

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Speaker 1: like someone who sort of shares my morals and values

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Speaker 1: and someone who I can just spend some time with

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Speaker 1: on the weekend. And so I decided to start online dating.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to be alone for the rest of

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Speaker 1: my life. So that's where I was. I had a

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Speaker 1: really big job at Ebaye. I was working in the city,

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Speaker 1: I had a big team. I was busy, I was stretched.

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Speaker 1: My daughter was five and a half six and she

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Speaker 1: was in full time childcare at that point.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember Max's profile.

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Speaker 1: Well, I do remember that he wasn't wearing a Von

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Speaker 1: Dutch hat and posing with a sedatea tigrone in Thailand,

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Speaker 1: which most of were, I know. I mean, he just

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Speaker 1: had photos of him doing the things that he loved,

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Speaker 1: like surfing and running and hanging out at the beach.

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Speaker 1: I remember he had, you know, a megawatt smile, he

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Speaker 1: had national geographic blue eyes, and you know, the blondest

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Speaker 1: hair I'd ever seen, and he just like, to me,

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Speaker 1: he just looked pretty normal, like pretty ozzy, And so

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Speaker 1: that's what caught my eye.

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Speaker 2: What was his kind of origin story? Obviously you got

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Speaker 2: to chatting, yeap, What did he tell you about his background?

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Speaker 1: What he told me was that he was orphaned at

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Speaker 1: the age of six, So his parents died in a

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Speaker 1: plane crash, and at that time he had an two

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Speaker 1: older sisters that weren't capable of looking after him, and

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Speaker 1: he was putting to the foster system. And he was

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Speaker 1: sort of shuffled around in the foster system for most

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Speaker 1: of his sort of early childhood, and then he landed

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Speaker 1: with a family in his teens that he met through

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Speaker 1: school that had three boys, and he became the fourth son,

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Speaker 1: is what he told me. So he ended up living

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Speaker 1: with them and sort of growing up with them. So

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Speaker 1: that was what he said about his childhood, and then

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Speaker 1: you know, it kind of went on from there. He

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Speaker 1: was picked out because he had an incredible mathematics brain.

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Speaker 1: He said that there were people that had, you know,

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Speaker 1: really focused on him, and you know, there was an

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Speaker 1: offer from MENSA, and you know, a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: things like that. So these sort of bits of information

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Speaker 1: came over a long period of time, and you know,

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Speaker 1: in retrospect you put the story together that the information

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Speaker 1: came slowly bits at a time.

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Speaker 2: I found it really interesting to read that, even with

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Speaker 2: that very early story, there was a little colonel in

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Speaker 2: your brain that thought to google, yeah, plane crash Max

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Speaker 2: to his last name that he told you was his

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Speaker 2: last name, and nothing came up. But you didn't think

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Speaker 2: anything of it at the time.

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Speaker 1: No, Well, I did think it was strange, and I

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Speaker 1: think it is pretty normal. When you meet someone, they

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Speaker 1: tell you things, so you do a little bit of

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Speaker 1: sort of sleuthing yourself, and you know, there's generally things

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Speaker 1: on the internet about people, whether it be their work

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Speaker 1: history or some football team they played it, you know,

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Speaker 1: when they were younger, or whatever. But yeah, I did.

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Speaker 1: I did google some of the things that he told me,

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Speaker 1: and nothing came up. And I thought, well, maybe I've got,

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Speaker 1: you know, the spelling of his surname wrong, or something's

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Speaker 1: you know, I've got the date off or whatever. And

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Speaker 1: I think the other thing to note is often i'd

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Speaker 1: google really late at night. So we'd been out on

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Speaker 1: a date and you know, i'd got home. It might

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Speaker 1: be eleven, eleven thirty, I'm absolutely dog tired, and I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to google some of the stuff that he'd tell

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Speaker 1: me and couldn't find anything. Couldn't find anything. And then

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Speaker 1: by that stage I was just falling asleep. So phone

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Speaker 1: goes on the side table and off I go to

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Speaker 1: sleep and start again the next day doing everything I

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Speaker 1: needed to do. So I think that was a really

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Speaker 1: interesting thing in retrospect, was because there was a vulnerability

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Speaker 1: there because I was stretched, I was tired, and I

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Speaker 1: had a lot on my plate, so I didn't go

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Speaker 1: to the level of detail and question, you know, what

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Speaker 1: I should have.

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Speaker 2: But also you don't think to question when someone's telling

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Speaker 2: you about their life.

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Speaker 1: No, especially when you meet somebody. You know, if I

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Speaker 1: meet you and you said, hi, I'm Gemma. I'm a

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Speaker 1: podcaster now, but I used to be a criminologist at

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Speaker 1: a university in Adelaide, there is nothing inside me that

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Speaker 1: would say, oh, hang on, let me just check that,

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Speaker 1: because I don't believe you. That's just not how we operate,

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Speaker 1: and we take people on face value, because when you

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Speaker 1: don't suspect anything, why would you, you know, And when

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Speaker 1: you don't have that level of deceit in your life

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Speaker 1: or you've never come across it, it's not something that

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Speaker 1: you automatically think about. I mean I do now, I

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Speaker 1: question everything, but previously, I'd never met anybody like him,

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Speaker 1: and I had no reason, absolutely no reason to disbelieve

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Speaker 1: what he was telling me.

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Speaker 2: What was he like to date in those kind of

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Speaker 2: early days.

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Speaker 1: It was fun. You know, he is Alarican. He had

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Speaker 1: a great sense of humor, awesome stories. We grew up

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Speaker 1: in Australia around the same time in the seventies, and

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Speaker 1: so we had a lot of kind of cultural references

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Speaker 1: that we could draw on. You know, those sort of

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Speaker 1: funny conversations you have about ads that used to be

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Speaker 1: on Telly, or you know, different things you'd wear, or

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Speaker 1: where you went on your some holidays in caravan parks

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Speaker 1: and all of that kind of chit chat that we'd have.

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Speaker 1: He was really active, so we were always doing things.

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Speaker 1: So we were paddleboarding, or we were running, or we

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Speaker 1: were surfing, or we were walking. Lots and lots of

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Speaker 1: outdoor activity, which I absolutely love. So the early days

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Speaker 1: it was fun, and he was an incredible communicator, a

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Speaker 1: great listener, and so our conversations were very long and

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Speaker 1: detailed and intimate in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 2: Like the plane crash story. He kind of had a

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Speaker 2: lot of strange stories or kind of I guess you

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Speaker 2: could call them fantastical stories, like you know nine to eleven. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he was involved in that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the stories were big. And what I've come to

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Speaker 1: realize with you know, compulsive liars, essentially, is you make

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Speaker 1: the story so big that you can't not believe it

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Speaker 1: and you can't question. And the nine to eleven story,

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Speaker 1: for example, that came over a cup of tea, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just I was in New York and under

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Speaker 1: the building when the second plane hit. It was a

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Speaker 1: very lengthy, very detailed story that had names and levels

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Speaker 1: and company names and surnames and wives' names, and what

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Speaker 1: role they had within the company, what floor they worked on,

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Speaker 1: how he knew them, like all the things that he

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Speaker 1: listed within this big, fantastical story that made you think, well,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even think at the time. I was just

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Speaker 1: so blown away. I was like, oh my god, that's

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Speaker 1: that's huge. And it all matched up with the things

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Speaker 1: that he told me in the past when he was

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Speaker 1: in New York where he worked on Wall Street. All

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Speaker 1: of the detail that had come in many many conversations

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Speaker 1: previously that when he told me that it all matched

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Speaker 1: and so again, and a level of detail was so

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Speaker 1: big that I just couldn't. I mean, there was nothing

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Speaker 1: inside me that disbelieved him.

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Speaker 2: But even he'd bring it back up. Yeah, throughout your relationship,

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Speaker 2: I can't face the I've got to face the wall,

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Speaker 2: or I can't face the wall, and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: So it just kept coming.

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Speaker 1: It was very clever, yes, and everything matched. So the

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Speaker 1: conversations and the information that came over time, it was

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Speaker 1: like death by a thousand cuts. There was not one

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Speaker 1: misstep in that information or in that story. And I

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Speaker 1: remember back and I think he said that last time,

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Speaker 1: and it all matched, and it was just another layer

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Speaker 1: to the story, another piece of information. But when it

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Speaker 1: comes to you in those little bits and pieces, it's

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Speaker 1: not as fantastical as it sounds when it's in one go.

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Speaker 1: And that's what kind of course of control and grooming

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Speaker 1: looks like in terms of I'll just give you a

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Speaker 1: little snippet of information that will put a story together

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Speaker 1: in your mind. By the time it gets to the end,

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Speaker 1: it's a big, weird, crazy story that seems so outrageous,

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Speaker 1: but little bit at a time, it's not.

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Speaker 2: The Other thing about the stories is that you realize

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Speaker 2: now that they were told in a way to kind

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Speaker 2: of gain two things, sympathy and trust. Yeah, so they

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Speaker 2: were often quite sad or kind of uniquely making you

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Speaker 2: feel bad for him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he weaponized empathy one hundred percent, and quite often

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Speaker 1: people like him will choose someone like me who is

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Speaker 1: a compassionate, empathetic person because when someone tells you that story,

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Speaker 1: of course your heart goes out to them. And he

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Speaker 1: also knew, you know, in those early days, that my

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Speaker 1: father had passed away young. So I think there was

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Speaker 1: a part of him that was telling me that story

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Speaker 1: because not everyone got the plane crash story right. There

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Speaker 1: were different stories for different people, So I got the

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Speaker 1: parents died in the plane crash. Now, I think there

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Speaker 1: was a part of him that knew that if he

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Speaker 1: told me that, he would gain an extra level of

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Speaker 1: empathy from me because I had lost my father, so

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Speaker 1: I know what it's like to lose a parent, and

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Speaker 1: I had, you know, my heart went out to him,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and then I'm thinking, he was six

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Speaker 1: years old. Imagine growing up without a you know, without

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Speaker 1: your parents and things like that. So he weaponized empathy

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Speaker 1: to gain your trust and gain your sympathy and kind

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Speaker 1: of put you on his side, I guess, And That's

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Speaker 1: how he built his relationships with everybody. It's just they

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Speaker 1: were different stories for different people, depending on what button

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Speaker 1: he needed to push for each individual.

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Speaker 2: Can you explain how he weaved into all of this?

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Speaker 2: How much money he had, and I say that with quotations,

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Speaker 2: how rich he was?

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Speaker 1: I think it was again, it was it was sentence

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Speaker 1: at a time, experience at a time. It was many, many, many,

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Speaker 1: many conversations over a long period of time about his job.

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Speaker 1: So he told me he was a chief financial officer

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Speaker 1: at a family office. And I knew what a family

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Speaker 1: office was. They, you know, manage money on behalf of

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Speaker 1: wealthy families. It is a thing, and you know, why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't he be doing that? And so there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of conversations. I would overhear multiple conversations of him

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Speaker 1: talking to people in his back office about the price

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Speaker 1: of stocks, the price of gold, What was that yesterday,

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Speaker 1: what's it going to close out today? We've got to

259
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Speaker 1: do this by X amount of time. We need to

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Speaker 1: close out that deal. What's happening with you know, Trump's

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Speaker 1: press conference and what impacts that going to have on

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Speaker 1: the market. What about this happening in Tokyo? What about

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Speaker 1: you know, it went on and on and on, and

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Speaker 1: I heard people on the other end of his you know, conversations.

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Speaker 1: So there were people I don't know working with him

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Speaker 1: or there was there was something going on. I don't

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Speaker 1: know who these people were, and so it's sort of

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Speaker 1: built a picture over time. And you know, he had

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Speaker 1: over that sort of first year that I was with him,

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Speaker 1: he had five cars, you know, good cars, too, great cars,

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Speaker 1: and you know there was a story around each of them.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking to myself, what a jerk, Like, what

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Speaker 1: forty year old guy who lives in Bonda, I needs

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Speaker 1: five cars? You doesn't even have any kids, Like, you know.

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Speaker 2: Do you park five cars in Bonda?

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Speaker 1: Well, he had a he it was like Tetris like

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Speaker 1: he had all these car parks that he hired. I

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Speaker 1: saw four of the cars and I saw a photo

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Speaker 1: in his garage of the fifth car. Now I don't know,

280
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Speaker 1: I don't think this was his car, but I don't

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Speaker 1: know how he got that car in the garage to

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Speaker 1: take a photo anyway. You know, So there was there

283
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Speaker 1: was those signs of wealth. There was a lot of conversation.

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Speaker 1: He didn't live an extravagant lifestyle, you know, He certainly

285
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Speaker 1: he ate out a lot. He was very generous. He

286
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Speaker 1: had the five cars, He wore nice clothes, things like that.

287
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Speaker 1: But it wasn't like he was living in a mansion

288
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Speaker 1: of all clues or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: But he did, as you kind of detail in the book.

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Speaker 2: He'd kind of houses. Oh yeah, woollhemloo. For those that

291
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Speaker 2: don't know Sydney, there's a finger wolf there and there's

292
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Speaker 2: some apartments that I don't even want to think what

293
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Speaker 2: they would be worse. Yeah, And he would just casually

294
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Speaker 2: say to you, oh, I lived there once.

295
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he did. And this is only in retrospect,

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Speaker 1: I've been able to join all these dots. It was

297
00:16:25,152 --> 00:16:27,552
Speaker 1: kind of like one truth in two lives, so there

298
00:16:27,592 --> 00:16:29,592
Speaker 1: was always something that was true. So he did have

299
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Speaker 1: an apartment there when he was married. I didn't know

300
00:16:32,912 --> 00:16:35,192
Speaker 1: he was married, but anyway, you know, he told me

301
00:16:35,272 --> 00:16:37,992
Speaker 1: he was engaged to this woman called Beck and she

302
00:16:38,112 --> 00:16:41,472
Speaker 1: had three sons. Her name was Beck, and she did

303
00:16:41,512 --> 00:16:44,912
Speaker 1: have three sons, but he wasn't engaged. She was actually

304
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Speaker 1: married to her. And you know she was an alcoholic.

305
00:16:48,272 --> 00:16:51,072
Speaker 1: She wasn't an alcoholic, So there was there was this

306
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Speaker 1: kind of Spider's web of some truths and some lies,

307
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Speaker 1: and in the years following his arrest, I've had to

308
00:16:59,152 --> 00:17:01,392
Speaker 1: really untangle that and work out what was true and

309
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Speaker 1: what was not. He had a house at Curl Curl.

310
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Speaker 1: We drove past it one day. Oh yeah, I used

311
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Speaker 1: to own that one he did. And the cars ended

312
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Speaker 1: up disappearing because after I made that kind of joking,

313
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Speaker 1: serious comment to him about being a joke for having

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Speaker 1: five cars, the cars started disappearing and he came back

315
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Speaker 1: to me and said, I said, what happened to the Porsche?

316
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Speaker 1: And he goes, you know what, te I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: about what you've been saying, and you're right. I don't

318
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Speaker 1: need all these cars. It's ridiculous. I'm trying to simplify

319
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Speaker 1: my life. We've spoken about this, and then suddenly suddenly

320
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Speaker 1: the cars started disappearing.

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Speaker 2: So do you think that that was him molding himself

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He was a complete shape shifter. So one of

324
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Speaker 1: his tactics, in addition to weaponizing empathy, is that mirroring.

325
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Speaker 1: And this is what people that con do. They reflect

326
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Speaker 1: you back to yourself, knowing that if someone is it's

327
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Speaker 1: like a similarity bias. So we are more likely to

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Speaker 1: love and like and fall in love with someone who

329
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Speaker 1: looks like us, sounds like us, has similar values to us,

330
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Speaker 1: likes doing the same things as us. And all he

331
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Speaker 1: had to do was listen to what I wanted for

332
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Speaker 1: my life and what my morals my values were, reflect

333
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Speaker 1: those back to him to me in the form of

334
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Speaker 1: Max Tavita, and he knew I'd fall in love with him,

335
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Speaker 1: which is exactly what happened. So yeah, he shape shifted

336
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Speaker 1: because for other people he was a different character. He

337
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Speaker 1: was a barrister for someone, he was a businessman for another,

338
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Speaker 1: he was a triathlete for another. You know, for me,

339
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Speaker 1: he was this character who reflected my values and morals.

340
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Speaker 1: So as soon as I said, you're a jerk for

341
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Speaker 1: having five cars, the car started disappearing. I am pretty

342
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Speaker 1: certain that if I had said I want designer clothes

343
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Speaker 1: and I want fancy dinners, and I want all the things,

344
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Speaker 1: then that would have somehow materialized.

345
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Speaker 2: Can we talk about sex for a moment, because he

346
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Speaker 2: gained the nickname the slow burn, Yes, in your circle

347
00:18:59,512 --> 00:19:03,672
Speaker 2: of friends, How did sex or lack of sex kind

348
00:19:03,671 --> 00:19:07,311
Speaker 2: of manifest in the way he kind of wound you?

349
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Speaker 1: He just wasn't interested he was not interested really very

350
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Speaker 1: much in physical intimacy that would be handholding and things

351
00:19:16,712 --> 00:19:20,551
Speaker 1: like that. But yeah, it was pretty it was a

352
00:19:20,591 --> 00:19:23,952
Speaker 1: massive fizzle. It was a massive fizzle. And in speaking

353
00:19:23,992 --> 00:19:27,472
Speaker 1: to other people that know him or have known him

354
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Speaker 1: and were in intimate relationships with him, specifically his ex wife,

355
00:19:32,512 --> 00:19:36,032
Speaker 1: the conversations are all the same, so there's obviously some

356
00:19:36,591 --> 00:19:40,911
Speaker 1: issue there. I don't really know what it is, but yeah,

357
00:19:40,992 --> 00:19:47,431
Speaker 1: it was pretty much nonexistent. And I it did bother me,

358
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Speaker 1: you know, because I thought it was weird. It's just weird, yeah,

359
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Speaker 1: and he you know. I actually ended up talking to

360
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Speaker 1: my therapist about it, and she just tried. She essentially

361
00:19:58,151 --> 00:20:01,671
Speaker 1: convinced me that it wasn't that unusual and that if

362
00:20:01,712 --> 00:20:04,831
Speaker 1: everything else was falling into line, then you know, it's

363
00:20:04,831 --> 00:20:07,272
Speaker 1: okay for things to be you know, slow, and if

364
00:20:07,272 --> 00:20:10,431
Speaker 1: that's not you know, if that's not really high on

365
00:20:10,911 --> 00:20:13,511
Speaker 1: your list of you know, what you want out of

366
00:20:13,512 --> 00:20:16,591
Speaker 1: a relationship, then you know, focus on the other things.

367
00:20:17,071 --> 00:20:21,511
Speaker 1: And of course he over indexed on emotional intimacy and

368
00:20:21,591 --> 00:20:26,272
Speaker 1: conversation and listening and care and support and just being there.

369
00:20:26,431 --> 00:20:29,191
Speaker 1: He over indexed on all of that, And then I

370
00:20:29,232 --> 00:20:32,512
Speaker 1: thought well if I've got that and not that, well,

371
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Speaker 1: I you know, well, I.

372
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Speaker 2: Think it shows how good he was at that. But

373
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Speaker 2: you were willing to be like, yeah, all right, I'll

374
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Speaker 2: forego that because he was so good at that emotional intimacy.

375
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I thought to myself, well, if I can

376
00:20:45,992 --> 00:20:48,191
Speaker 1: have one or the other, which do I choose? What

377
00:20:48,272 --> 00:20:50,351
Speaker 1: do I choose? Well, of course I'm going to choose

378
00:20:50,512 --> 00:20:54,111
Speaker 1: the support and the emotional intimacy. And you know the

379
00:20:54,151 --> 00:20:56,591
Speaker 1: fact that I felt completely supported and we were a

380
00:20:56,631 --> 00:20:59,232
Speaker 1: team and we were building a life together, and I thought,

381
00:20:59,272 --> 00:21:02,871
Speaker 1: you know what, we're not twenty anymore. Sometimes this is

382
00:21:02,871 --> 00:21:09,752
Speaker 1: what happens. That's okay. I guess I accepted it as.

383
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Speaker 2: You fell in love. And because you were with this

384
00:21:11,911 --> 00:21:15,432
Speaker 2: man for eighteen months, he met your daughter, you met

385
00:21:15,431 --> 00:21:18,591
Speaker 2: his brother in law. Yeah, it got serious. He had

386
00:21:18,631 --> 00:21:19,752
Speaker 2: in each other's lives.

387
00:21:19,911 --> 00:21:23,831
Speaker 1: Yeah, he met a lot of people in my world

388
00:21:24,311 --> 00:21:27,032
Speaker 1: that weren't attached to Sydney because I don't come from it,

389
00:21:27,111 --> 00:21:29,512
Speaker 1: you know, I've lived here, you know, twenty five years,

390
00:21:29,512 --> 00:21:32,631
Speaker 1: but my family are all up north and friends and

391
00:21:32,671 --> 00:21:34,792
Speaker 1: things like that. So when we went up north to

392
00:21:34,831 --> 00:21:38,711
Speaker 1: Byron and places like that, he was very very open

393
00:21:38,792 --> 00:21:41,471
Speaker 1: to meeting my family, my friends up there, anybody that

394
00:21:41,591 --> 00:21:44,591
Speaker 1: wasn't attached to Sydney. But he was super weird about

395
00:21:44,631 --> 00:21:48,751
Speaker 1: spending time with my friends in Sydney. He really resisted it.

396
00:21:48,871 --> 00:21:53,631
Speaker 1: He really resisted me meeting his sister and his nieces.

397
00:21:54,272 --> 00:21:57,152
Speaker 1: He was estranged from one sister, so that wasn't ever

398
00:21:57,192 --> 00:22:00,792
Speaker 1: on the cards. His parents were of course dead dead ah,

399
00:22:01,151 --> 00:22:04,631
Speaker 1: so I never questioned that. But I did meet his

400
00:22:04,671 --> 00:22:05,311
Speaker 1: brother in law.

401
00:22:05,391 --> 00:22:11,032
Speaker 2: Yep, the brother in law. It was his actual brother

402
00:22:11,071 --> 00:22:12,191
Speaker 2: in law, Yeah, wasn't it.

403
00:22:12,351 --> 00:22:13,032
Speaker 1: Yeah.

404
00:22:13,071 --> 00:22:16,511
Speaker 2: So, but that part of the con fascinates me because

405
00:22:17,792 --> 00:22:21,311
Speaker 2: he was kind of walking on eggshell's there, because you

406
00:22:21,351 --> 00:22:23,712
Speaker 2: could very well have found out that his name was Hamish,

407
00:22:23,712 --> 00:22:26,071
Speaker 2: but somehow you didn't, because he was kind of playing

408
00:22:26,111 --> 00:22:27,751
Speaker 2: you off him. Well.

409
00:22:28,272 --> 00:22:29,952
Speaker 1: It was weird because I looked back and I thought,

410
00:22:29,952 --> 00:22:34,472
Speaker 1: how come, you know, why didn't Chris say something? And

411
00:22:34,631 --> 00:22:37,311
Speaker 1: what I realized was in the interactions that we had,

412
00:22:37,351 --> 00:22:39,351
Speaker 1: and the same with Anna and a few other people,

413
00:22:40,472 --> 00:22:42,991
Speaker 1: I never actually used his name. I never actually said hey, Max,

414
00:22:43,631 --> 00:22:45,431
Speaker 1: you know, I never said, oh, Max told me this

415
00:22:45,512 --> 00:22:48,831
Speaker 1: about you. Because what I realized is in conversation we

416
00:22:48,871 --> 00:22:52,071
Speaker 1: actually don't use people's names very often, so we might say, oh,

417
00:22:52,192 --> 00:22:55,111
Speaker 1: you just carry on this conversation. You just assume everyone

418
00:22:55,232 --> 00:22:58,111
Speaker 1: is on the same piece of information, you know, And

419
00:22:58,591 --> 00:23:02,111
Speaker 1: so I, you know, I came to realize very quickly

420
00:23:02,192 --> 00:23:04,951
Speaker 1: that his name was never used. But he must have

421
00:23:04,992 --> 00:23:07,591
Speaker 1: been shitting himself. He must have been. And there was

422
00:23:07,671 --> 00:23:10,671
Speaker 1: one particular time where we were at his apartment in

423
00:23:10,712 --> 00:23:13,871
Speaker 1: Bondi and he had the childhood friend that he grew

424
00:23:13,911 --> 00:23:16,232
Speaker 1: up with that family. One of the boys was over

425
00:23:17,272 --> 00:23:19,631
Speaker 1: and we're talking away and we're reading the newspapers and

426
00:23:19,671 --> 00:23:23,311
Speaker 1: what have you, and he called him the boy. The

427
00:23:23,351 --> 00:23:27,672
Speaker 1: friend called him Handbone in the conversation and I kind

428
00:23:27,671 --> 00:23:29,831
Speaker 1: of clocked it and I thought, that's weird. And then

429
00:23:29,871 --> 00:23:33,071
Speaker 1: he left and I said, why did he call you handbone?

430
00:23:33,911 --> 00:23:36,111
Speaker 1: And as quick as a flash, he goes, oh, because

431
00:23:36,151 --> 00:23:37,711
Speaker 1: when I was young, we were growing up together, it

432
00:23:37,792 --> 00:23:40,552
Speaker 1: was really really skinny, and everyone said I needed to

433
00:23:40,552 --> 00:23:43,191
Speaker 1: put ham on my bone's meat on my legs, so

434
00:23:43,232 --> 00:23:46,552
Speaker 1: they called me handbone. He did not even draw breath.

435
00:23:46,792 --> 00:23:49,032
Speaker 1: It was like he was waiting for that to come up,

436
00:23:49,111 --> 00:23:51,712
Speaker 1: and he just had an answer, like he did with

437
00:23:52,192 --> 00:23:56,432
Speaker 1: everything I questioned. And you know, so when that happens,

438
00:23:56,472 --> 00:23:59,672
Speaker 1: and you don't sort of that intuitive feeling of when

439
00:23:59,712 --> 00:24:04,351
Speaker 1: someone's like, oh, well, it's because it was just straight

440
00:24:04,351 --> 00:24:07,951
Speaker 1: off the bat down the back. Kryl said what it was,

441
00:24:07,992 --> 00:24:10,591
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, that makes sense. But of

442
00:24:10,591 --> 00:24:15,751
Speaker 1: course Hambone is Hamish ham Yeah, so these are the

443
00:24:15,792 --> 00:24:18,351
Speaker 1: things that I know now, but of course at the

444
00:24:18,431 --> 00:24:24,391
Speaker 1: time it's just he must have been crapping in stacks.

445
00:24:26,671 --> 00:24:30,232
Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath,

446
00:24:30,752 --> 00:24:34,311
Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Tracy Hall, the last victim of conman

447
00:24:34,552 --> 00:24:35,552
Speaker 2: Hamish McLaren.

448
00:24:36,351 --> 00:24:36,471
Speaker 1: Up.

449
00:24:36,512 --> 00:24:39,231
Speaker 2: Next, Tracy tells me about the first time Hamish was

450
00:24:39,272 --> 00:24:41,351
Speaker 2: able to convince her to send him a large sum

451
00:24:41,351 --> 00:24:48,551
Speaker 2: of money. When was the first time he brought up

452
00:24:48,712 --> 00:24:52,431
Speaker 2: money or the idea of you parting with some money

453
00:24:52,472 --> 00:24:53,751
Speaker 2: to invest in something of his.

454
00:24:54,671 --> 00:24:57,191
Speaker 1: It was towards the end of that first year. It

455
00:24:57,351 --> 00:25:01,111
Speaker 1: was around the time of the US election, and he

456
00:25:01,151 --> 00:25:03,711
Speaker 1: came to me one day and said, I'm proving you

457
00:25:03,792 --> 00:25:09,751
Speaker 1: to some information, and I think that there's going to

458
00:25:09,792 --> 00:25:12,751
Speaker 1: be something that happens with a very wealthy family in

459
00:25:12,792 --> 00:25:15,671
Speaker 1: the US that is going to mean the markets are

460
00:25:15,671 --> 00:25:16,951
Speaker 1: going to be favorable.

461
00:25:17,591 --> 00:25:17,792
Speaker 2: You know.

462
00:25:17,911 --> 00:25:19,631
Speaker 1: He had this big spiel. There was a lot of

463
00:25:19,671 --> 00:25:24,232
Speaker 1: manologues that went on, and so he's telling me this story,

464
00:25:24,512 --> 00:25:27,711
Speaker 1: and he said, Jewels and Chris, which was his sister

465
00:25:27,752 --> 00:25:30,992
Speaker 1: and brother in law. Jewels and Chris are investing separately

466
00:25:31,032 --> 00:25:34,232
Speaker 1: to what I'm doing for the family office clients. And

467
00:25:35,431 --> 00:25:37,671
Speaker 1: you know, obviously I've been talking to Jewels about you.

468
00:25:38,111 --> 00:25:42,151
Speaker 1: And it was Jewels that suggested that maybe I should

469
00:25:42,151 --> 00:25:45,472
Speaker 1: talk to you about it, because you know, I want

470
00:25:45,512 --> 00:25:47,992
Speaker 1: you to be financially independent. I can see how hard

471
00:25:48,032 --> 00:25:52,351
Speaker 1: you're working. And he said, normally I don't mix business

472
00:25:52,391 --> 00:25:54,992
Speaker 1: with pleasure, but this is an opportunity. And Jewels put

473
00:25:54,992 --> 00:25:56,392
Speaker 1: the idea in my head and I just thought I'd

474
00:25:56,431 --> 00:25:59,071
Speaker 1: run it past you and see what you think. So

475
00:25:59,272 --> 00:26:02,191
Speaker 1: that was the start of the conversation, and I asked

476
00:26:02,192 --> 00:26:05,231
Speaker 1: a bunch of questions and he was very vague with

477
00:26:05,351 --> 00:26:08,472
Speaker 1: the information because he was like, look, there are things

478
00:26:08,472 --> 00:26:09,791
Speaker 1: that I can tell you and there are things that

479
00:26:09,831 --> 00:26:13,512
Speaker 1: I can't tell you. And again, everything was very quick

480
00:26:13,671 --> 00:26:18,512
Speaker 1: and professional, and he knew the answers. And I ended

481
00:26:18,591 --> 00:26:20,591
Speaker 1: up saying to him because I've worked in finance in

482
00:26:20,631 --> 00:26:23,191
Speaker 1: my career, and I ended up saying to him, but

483
00:26:23,351 --> 00:26:27,151
Speaker 1: isn't this insider trading, Like if your privatism information that

484
00:26:27,311 --> 00:26:31,431
Speaker 1: is going to adjust the markets favorably, you shouldn't be

485
00:26:31,911 --> 00:26:35,991
Speaker 1: having that conversation and getting personal benefit out of that.

486
00:26:36,792 --> 00:26:38,631
Speaker 1: And again, quick as a flash, he goes, you know what,

487
00:26:39,272 --> 00:26:41,351
Speaker 1: I thought that too. So I went to my barrister,

488
00:26:41,431 --> 00:26:43,591
Speaker 1: I went to my lawyer, and I've had a lengthy

489
00:26:43,631 --> 00:26:46,512
Speaker 1: conversation with him yesterday about it. I spoke about Jules,

490
00:26:46,552 --> 00:26:49,711
Speaker 1: I spoke about you. I'm not investing personally, but did

491
00:26:50,071 --> 00:26:53,671
Speaker 1: you know and he just again, he just had these answers.

492
00:26:53,871 --> 00:26:57,272
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just oh no, it's fine and that's

493
00:26:56,952 --> 00:27:02,231
Speaker 1: It was a lengthy, detailed answer that had me believe

494
00:27:02,351 --> 00:27:07,631
Speaker 1: that it was all legit. So that's where that that's

495
00:27:07,671 --> 00:27:10,871
Speaker 1: where that started, and I ended up I ended up

496
00:27:10,952 --> 00:27:14,152
Speaker 1: investing in that scheme to start with.

497
00:27:15,151 --> 00:27:19,552
Speaker 2: You invested ten k to start with, and then you

498
00:27:19,671 --> 00:27:21,871
Speaker 2: kind of let it sit and then he came back

499
00:27:21,911 --> 00:27:24,311
Speaker 2: to you to kind of give you updates on it.

500
00:27:24,871 --> 00:27:27,151
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean as soon as the time had passed,

501
00:27:27,151 --> 00:27:29,311
Speaker 1: which he said was the date that passed, he said,

502
00:27:29,351 --> 00:27:33,471
Speaker 1: I've got good news. You doubled your money. And I

503
00:27:33,591 --> 00:27:38,831
Speaker 1: was like, wow, okay, and he said, you drop me

504
00:27:38,871 --> 00:27:42,751
Speaker 1: to transfer that back into your account. And I remember

505
00:27:42,792 --> 00:27:45,032
Speaker 1: being in the car driving and I thought to myself,

506
00:27:45,472 --> 00:27:47,311
Speaker 1: I can't deal with that now. I said, no, just

507
00:27:47,431 --> 00:27:50,671
Speaker 1: leave it for now. We'll figure that out later. I

508
00:27:50,792 --> 00:27:55,391
Speaker 1: was again, I was busy, I was distracted, And that

509
00:27:55,631 --> 00:28:00,552
Speaker 1: was sort of where that conversation ended. And then after

510
00:28:00,591 --> 00:28:03,992
Speaker 1: that the other conversation started, so it sort of merged

511
00:28:03,992 --> 00:28:06,311
Speaker 1: into that after after a while.

512
00:28:06,311 --> 00:28:08,911
Speaker 2: The other conversation was about your super fund, and that

513
00:28:08,992 --> 00:28:11,991
Speaker 2: kind of started a few months later. Yeah, he was

514
00:28:12,111 --> 00:28:15,032
Speaker 2: very clever and the way he posed that.

515
00:28:15,472 --> 00:28:18,711
Speaker 1: Yeah, never once did he ask me how much I earned,

516
00:28:19,151 --> 00:28:21,751
Speaker 1: how much I had in savings, anything like that, how

517
00:28:21,831 --> 00:28:24,232
Speaker 1: much I had in my super He said to me,

518
00:28:25,431 --> 00:28:28,191
Speaker 1: do you know what you're paying in fees on your

519
00:28:28,232 --> 00:28:31,552
Speaker 1: superannuation account? And I said, I've got no idea, and

520
00:28:31,631 --> 00:28:33,632
Speaker 1: he goes, you should look into that because they're thiebs.

521
00:28:33,911 --> 00:28:37,391
Speaker 1: They're absolute thieves. The money that I make for my

522
00:28:37,552 --> 00:28:42,512
Speaker 1: family office clients is extraordinary compared to what those super

523
00:28:42,512 --> 00:28:46,991
Speaker 1: funds are doing. And that was the first conversation, and

524
00:28:47,032 --> 00:28:49,512
Speaker 1: then it just went from there and again every couple

525
00:28:49,552 --> 00:28:51,552
Speaker 1: of weeks it might come up, or every now and again,

526
00:28:51,632 --> 00:28:54,832
Speaker 1: in a conversation, and he was always very critical of

527
00:28:54,872 --> 00:28:57,472
Speaker 1: the super funds, the fees that they took and how

528
00:28:57,472 --> 00:29:01,551
Speaker 1: they were managing the money of Australians. So you know,

529
00:29:01,632 --> 00:29:05,552
Speaker 1: he was quite controversial in his views. He was a

530
00:29:05,592 --> 00:29:09,911
Speaker 1: contrarian and he made no bones about it. So he

531
00:29:09,952 --> 00:29:12,792
Speaker 1: had no problem, you know, having a different point of

532
00:29:12,872 --> 00:29:18,472
Speaker 1: view to general population. But he'd tap that in every

533
00:29:18,512 --> 00:29:20,632
Speaker 1: now and again, and then over time you just start

534
00:29:20,712 --> 00:29:21,472
Speaker 1: to think about it.

535
00:29:21,992 --> 00:29:25,032
Speaker 2: So his idea was for you to self manage your

536
00:29:25,072 --> 00:29:27,952
Speaker 2: superannuation and for him to be in charge of it.

537
00:29:28,192 --> 00:29:32,872
Speaker 1: Yeah, so eventually he said, I think you'd be better

538
00:29:32,872 --> 00:29:36,592
Speaker 1: off having a self managed superfund because it could be

539
00:29:36,632 --> 00:29:39,991
Speaker 1: invested in a way that would make you far greater returns.

540
00:29:40,512 --> 00:29:43,072
Speaker 1: You would be paying less fees and you would be

541
00:29:43,072 --> 00:29:46,992
Speaker 1: in control of where you invest that. So again, those

542
00:29:47,032 --> 00:29:53,592
Speaker 1: conversations came a lot and over time, and he essentially

543
00:29:53,671 --> 00:29:57,231
Speaker 1: groomed me through that process. So he went and worked

544
00:29:57,392 --> 00:30:00,312
Speaker 1: with a solo star to get all of the documentation

545
00:30:00,431 --> 00:30:03,951
Speaker 1: that was required to create a self managed superfund in

546
00:30:04,032 --> 00:30:06,792
Speaker 1: my name, which is what we did. It was completely legitimate.

547
00:30:07,552 --> 00:30:11,431
Speaker 1: I had all of the setup correct and went to

548
00:30:11,472 --> 00:30:14,152
Speaker 1: my super fund and asked them to transfer it out

549
00:30:14,232 --> 00:30:16,872
Speaker 1: to my self managed super fund. To do that, like,

550
00:30:16,911 --> 00:30:18,751
Speaker 1: that's not easy to do. You have to have a

551
00:30:18,752 --> 00:30:22,352
Speaker 1: whole bunch of things for them to do that. So

552
00:30:22,431 --> 00:30:24,751
Speaker 1: that was all in place. I set up a business

553
00:30:24,792 --> 00:30:29,671
Speaker 1: account with Westpac and that's where that's where the money went.

554
00:30:29,952 --> 00:30:32,711
Speaker 1: And then the second part of that, and it was

555
00:30:32,712 --> 00:30:34,872
Speaker 1: all in my name. And then the second part of

556
00:30:34,872 --> 00:30:36,752
Speaker 1: that was he said, we're going to set you up

557
00:30:36,911 --> 00:30:40,992
Speaker 1: a trading account with Bell Potter Securities. Bell Potter Securities

558
00:30:41,072 --> 00:30:45,072
Speaker 1: training a trading firm. It's very legitimate. I filled in

559
00:30:45,112 --> 00:30:48,191
Speaker 1: the documentation, I had my ID signed by a JP.

560
00:30:48,911 --> 00:30:52,911
Speaker 1: I was opening up a Bell Potter Securities investment account

561
00:30:53,192 --> 00:30:57,272
Speaker 1: in my self managed super fund name, and that's where

562
00:30:57,272 --> 00:31:00,712
Speaker 1: it was going to be invested and tracked and everything.

563
00:31:01,152 --> 00:31:04,191
Speaker 1: So gave all of that information to him. But the

564
00:31:04,232 --> 00:31:07,712
Speaker 1: mistake I made is that I didn't submit those forms.

565
00:31:08,112 --> 00:31:11,472
Speaker 1: He submitted those forms on behalf of me, and what

566
00:31:11,512 --> 00:31:14,472
Speaker 1: I think happened is that those forms were actually never submitted.

567
00:31:15,072 --> 00:31:16,872
Speaker 1: And what I know now is because I've gone through

568
00:31:16,911 --> 00:31:20,632
Speaker 1: a financial advisor and done everything properly, is that I

569
00:31:20,671 --> 00:31:22,912
Speaker 1: should have had the logins, the emails should have come

570
00:31:22,952 --> 00:31:26,112
Speaker 1: to me. He should have been a you know, a

571
00:31:26,192 --> 00:31:29,192
Speaker 1: co you know, have access to it like a financial

572
00:31:29,192 --> 00:31:32,711
Speaker 1: advisor does. But everything should have come to me first,

573
00:31:32,752 --> 00:31:35,072
Speaker 1: with the logins and everything. I never got those. So

574
00:31:35,112 --> 00:31:37,991
Speaker 1: that's how I know that there was never a fund

575
00:31:38,472 --> 00:31:42,072
Speaker 1: an investment fund set up at Bell Potter. The check

576
00:31:42,352 --> 00:31:47,232
Speaker 1: that I took out from Westpac, which was my superannuation

577
00:31:47,431 --> 00:31:50,312
Speaker 1: twenty two year career superannuation one hundred and eighty seven

578
00:31:50,352 --> 00:31:54,152
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, I made out a check to Bell Potter Securities,

579
00:31:54,192 --> 00:31:56,352
Speaker 1: which is what he told me to do, and I

580
00:31:56,392 --> 00:31:59,072
Speaker 1: gave that check to him thinking he was investing it

581
00:31:59,232 --> 00:32:02,272
Speaker 1: into my account, and because it was just a Bell

582
00:32:02,352 --> 00:32:05,352
Speaker 1: Potter Securities, it didn't have my name on it, that

583
00:32:06,112 --> 00:32:08,471
Speaker 1: check went into one of his accounts at Bell pot

584
00:32:08,552 --> 00:32:11,152
Speaker 1: of Securities, and that's how he washed the money.

585
00:32:13,032 --> 00:32:14,752
Speaker 2: It's not like you didn't ask for the logins.

586
00:32:15,032 --> 00:32:18,272
Speaker 1: I asked a lot. Yeah, I've still got those text messages.

587
00:32:18,312 --> 00:32:19,271
Speaker 1: It's funny looking at them.

588
00:32:19,272 --> 00:32:21,152
Speaker 2: Actually, well, they were very clever. And there was one

589
00:32:21,152 --> 00:32:24,191
Speaker 2: example that I've written here where you were in a

590
00:32:24,232 --> 00:32:27,312
Speaker 2: process of trying to finalize your divorce and you were like,

591
00:32:27,671 --> 00:32:29,951
Speaker 2: do you have that statement? On my super for my

592
00:32:30,032 --> 00:32:33,632
Speaker 2: legal stuff, and he wrote, yep, yes, can print anytime. Yeah,

593
00:32:33,671 --> 00:32:37,352
Speaker 2: So he was always very yeah, sure, of course.

594
00:32:37,552 --> 00:32:39,312
Speaker 1: Of course, I'll do it when I get home or

595
00:32:39,992 --> 00:32:42,032
Speaker 1: I'm just in a meeting. That it was always a

596
00:32:42,072 --> 00:32:45,232
Speaker 1: future future promise, and future promise could have been two

597
00:32:45,272 --> 00:32:47,832
Speaker 1: hours from now. And then, of course again because I

598
00:32:47,911 --> 00:32:51,791
Speaker 1: was busy, I was stretched, I was distracted. It just

599
00:32:52,032 --> 00:32:53,512
Speaker 1: you know, and then I'd ask again and there'd be

600
00:32:53,512 --> 00:32:56,191
Speaker 1: another excuse, and you know, these things just sort of

601
00:32:56,232 --> 00:32:58,672
Speaker 1: went on and on. But yeah, there was a lot

602
00:32:58,712 --> 00:33:02,952
Speaker 1: of delay, but never a no, never a no. And

603
00:33:03,352 --> 00:33:07,392
Speaker 1: eventually he gave me a statement that was on Bell

604
00:33:07,431 --> 00:33:10,912
Speaker 1: Potter letterhead and it was about six pages, I think

605
00:33:10,952 --> 00:33:14,791
Speaker 1: from memory, and it had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

606
00:33:14,832 --> 00:33:17,951
Speaker 1: of lines of trades. And I'm looking at it and

607
00:33:17,992 --> 00:33:21,112
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I've never seen a statement like this before.

608
00:33:21,112 --> 00:33:23,552
Speaker 1: I'd never done anything like that before. I really wasn't

609
00:33:24,192 --> 00:33:26,832
Speaker 1: in a position to do that, and I'm looking at

610
00:33:26,832 --> 00:33:28,872
Speaker 1: it and I said, well, what does all of this mean?

611
00:33:29,072 --> 00:33:33,072
Speaker 1: And he said, the individual trades, of which there are hundreds,

612
00:33:33,112 --> 00:33:36,152
Speaker 1: they won't make any sense. That's how we work the

613
00:33:36,152 --> 00:33:39,352
Speaker 1: markets and what have you. But what you need to

614
00:33:39,431 --> 00:33:41,712
Speaker 1: know is the amount up the top was the amount

615
00:33:41,872 --> 00:33:43,991
Speaker 1: that went in, and the amount at the end of

616
00:33:44,032 --> 00:33:46,632
Speaker 1: the report is the amount the value that you've now

617
00:33:46,712 --> 00:33:52,472
Speaker 1: got in your investment account Tracy Hall Investments, Bell Potter

618
00:33:52,512 --> 00:33:56,632
Speaker 1: Securities account. All the details it was all on what

619
00:33:56,792 --> 00:34:01,191
Speaker 1: was fake letterhead, but all on official documentation. So I

620
00:34:01,272 --> 00:34:05,031
Speaker 1: read that and I was like, oh, okay, well then

621
00:34:05,792 --> 00:34:09,192
Speaker 1: that's good and it all looked very legitimate. So I

622
00:34:09,232 --> 00:34:14,031
Speaker 1: sort of believed that, and then that was what sort

623
00:34:14,072 --> 00:34:17,591
Speaker 1: of the information I needed to Then, you know, as

624
00:34:18,031 --> 00:34:20,631
Speaker 1: time went on, sell some tech chees that I had

625
00:34:20,672 --> 00:34:24,192
Speaker 1: been that invested while I was working in eBay and

626
00:34:24,352 --> 00:34:26,672
Speaker 1: sell those and invest those as well.

627
00:34:27,152 --> 00:34:31,872
Speaker 2: So you made a few more significant transactions in you know,

628
00:34:31,872 --> 00:34:36,071
Speaker 2: an EIGHTYK here and a forty K here, because he

629
00:34:36,152 --> 00:34:38,472
Speaker 2: was telling you that it was working. You were earning

630
00:34:38,551 --> 00:34:41,352
Speaker 2: money on your super like you hadn't seen that's right.

631
00:34:41,471 --> 00:34:44,792
Speaker 1: And also too, he because of all the other conversations

632
00:34:44,792 --> 00:34:47,152
Speaker 1: that were happening about the markets and the political impact

633
00:34:47,232 --> 00:34:50,352
Speaker 1: on the markets globally and who's doing what and which

634
00:34:50,392 --> 00:34:53,312
Speaker 1: stocks are going up and which are going down, he

635
00:34:53,551 --> 00:34:56,352
Speaker 1: was very vocal about US tech, which were the shares

636
00:34:56,392 --> 00:35:00,752
Speaker 1: that I had through my employment, and he said, you know, Tea,

637
00:35:00,872 --> 00:35:03,511
Speaker 1: you should sell those because they're at a really they're

638
00:35:03,511 --> 00:35:05,951
Speaker 1: at an all time high. And I'd look at them

639
00:35:05,991 --> 00:35:08,272
Speaker 1: and I go, they actually are an all time high

640
00:35:08,272 --> 00:35:10,911
Speaker 1: because I know how to look at a stock report.

641
00:35:11,312 --> 00:35:13,392
Speaker 1: And he said, you know this is going to happen,

642
00:35:13,511 --> 00:35:16,752
Speaker 1: and Trump's doing these things, and you know so and

643
00:35:16,792 --> 00:35:18,551
Speaker 1: so is doing these and this is these are some

644
00:35:18,632 --> 00:35:21,312
Speaker 1: extra taxes they're putting on this industry in Austraight like

645
00:35:21,911 --> 00:35:25,151
Speaker 1: everything he had. He had all this information, but of course,

646
00:35:25,232 --> 00:35:28,192
Speaker 1: remember he didn't have a job, so he had days

647
00:35:28,192 --> 00:35:31,151
Speaker 1: and hours to research this stuff to all sort of

648
00:35:31,712 --> 00:35:33,591
Speaker 1: back up what he said. So if I did look

649
00:35:33,632 --> 00:35:37,352
Speaker 1: at it, it would it would match, and it did.

650
00:35:37,911 --> 00:35:40,752
Speaker 1: So of course I trusted him. I believed him. I

651
00:35:40,792 --> 00:35:43,232
Speaker 1: thought he had my best interests at heart, and so

652
00:35:43,392 --> 00:35:46,551
Speaker 1: I sold those stock and I put it into the

653
00:35:46,712 --> 00:35:50,672
Speaker 1: self managed super fund. I was very happy to hand

654
00:35:50,712 --> 00:35:56,392
Speaker 1: over my financial security to him because I thought he

655
00:35:56,471 --> 00:35:58,752
Speaker 1: was a professional. I thought he had my best interests

656
00:35:58,752 --> 00:36:00,592
Speaker 1: at heart, and I thought we were building a future together.

657
00:36:01,072 --> 00:36:03,872
Speaker 1: But in retrospect, I should have given him the after

658
00:36:03,872 --> 00:36:05,951
Speaker 1: school pickup. I should have given him the laundry. I

659
00:36:05,951 --> 00:36:08,711
Speaker 1: should given him the groceries. I should not have given

660
00:36:08,792 --> 00:36:12,911
Speaker 1: him my money. I didn't protect it enough because again

661
00:36:13,192 --> 00:36:17,631
Speaker 1: I just felt seen, and you know, I thought were

662
00:36:17,632 --> 00:36:20,272
Speaker 1: building a future together. So that was probably the mistake

663
00:36:20,352 --> 00:36:22,872
Speaker 1: I made.

664
00:36:23,152 --> 00:36:25,872
Speaker 2: You say it was a mistake, but you've kind of

665
00:36:25,911 --> 00:36:30,592
Speaker 2: detailed how clever he was and the flashiness of the money,

666
00:36:30,632 --> 00:36:32,352
Speaker 2: I feel like is a big part of it, because

667
00:36:32,392 --> 00:36:34,431
Speaker 2: you kind of mentioned that he would have these sugar

668
00:36:34,511 --> 00:36:37,872
Speaker 2: daddy moments where he'd say, Oh, you've been working so hard, Tracy,

669
00:36:37,991 --> 00:36:40,152
Speaker 2: let me buy you a first class plane ticket across

670
00:36:40,152 --> 00:36:42,832
Speaker 2: the world like someone who is conninge you. You don't

671
00:36:42,872 --> 00:36:45,031
Speaker 2: think that they're gonna do stuff like that.

672
00:36:45,272 --> 00:36:48,352
Speaker 1: No, And that was another moment where I just laughed

673
00:36:48,392 --> 00:36:52,951
Speaker 1: at him because I was like, in what world can

674
00:36:53,031 --> 00:36:56,632
Speaker 1: I take a trip anywhere right now, regardless of whether

675
00:36:56,712 --> 00:37:00,071
Speaker 1: it's first class or not, Like I, you know, do

676
00:37:00,112 --> 00:37:02,792
Speaker 1: you understand anything about my life? And I said, I don't.

677
00:37:02,872 --> 00:37:05,832
Speaker 1: I don't want that from you. It felt icky, you know,

678
00:37:06,152 --> 00:37:09,352
Speaker 1: and I think he was just testing me to see

679
00:37:09,392 --> 00:37:12,832
Speaker 1: what he needed to give me to lure me in,

680
00:37:12,951 --> 00:37:16,312
Speaker 1: and that isn't something that impresses me. So I was

681
00:37:16,352 --> 00:37:19,872
Speaker 1: sort of like that just feels icky, and then sort of,

682
00:37:19,911 --> 00:37:22,511
Speaker 1: you know, over a year down the track, it had

683
00:37:22,551 --> 00:37:25,352
Speaker 1: a particularly hard day at work. You might remember this

684
00:37:25,392 --> 00:37:29,111
Speaker 1: from the book, and you know, I was pitching and

685
00:37:29,112 --> 00:37:31,071
Speaker 1: moaning about work and I was tired. You know, I

686
00:37:31,112 --> 00:37:35,232
Speaker 1: was tired, and I you know, I was sort of

687
00:37:35,232 --> 00:37:39,031
Speaker 1: expressing that to him, and he said, Trace, you work

688
00:37:39,072 --> 00:37:42,392
Speaker 1: harder than anyone. I know. I don't know anyone that

689
00:37:42,431 --> 00:37:45,991
Speaker 1: works harder than you. I can see you moving your

690
00:37:46,031 --> 00:37:48,752
Speaker 1: career in another direction. You're in your early forties now,

691
00:37:48,872 --> 00:37:51,272
Speaker 1: you know it does the big spiel builds you up,

692
00:37:51,471 --> 00:37:55,591
Speaker 1: biggest cheerleader in the world. And he says, why don't

693
00:37:55,592 --> 00:37:58,512
Speaker 1: you quit your job. I will put a million dollars

694
00:37:58,551 --> 00:38:02,071
Speaker 1: in your bank account tomorrow and you can really have

695
00:38:02,112 --> 00:38:04,352
Speaker 1: a good break from work and work out what you

696
00:38:04,392 --> 00:38:08,152
Speaker 1: want to do next. Because you are talented, you are amazing,

697
00:38:08,272 --> 00:38:10,832
Speaker 1: You are a hard worker, and I want you to

698
00:38:10,911 --> 00:38:14,312
Speaker 1: have that life for yourself. And I'm thinking, I mean,

699
00:38:14,392 --> 00:38:18,431
Speaker 1: for a hot minute, Emma, a million dollars, maybe more

700
00:38:18,431 --> 00:38:20,511
Speaker 1: than a hot minute. I was thinking, Wow, wouldn't that

701
00:38:20,551 --> 00:38:22,632
Speaker 1: be amazing. I was tired. I was, you know, I was,

702
00:38:22,792 --> 00:38:27,312
Speaker 1: I was burnt out. And you know, I just but

703
00:38:27,352 --> 00:38:30,911
Speaker 1: again it felt icky, and I said to him, you

704
00:38:30,951 --> 00:38:34,312
Speaker 1: know what, I'm just having a bad day. And in retrospect,

705
00:38:35,031 --> 00:38:38,151
Speaker 1: had I have accepted that offer, he would have taken

706
00:38:38,192 --> 00:38:41,031
Speaker 1: away my only financial lifeline that helped me get out

707
00:38:41,031 --> 00:38:42,872
Speaker 1: of the hole that I was in when he got arrested.

708
00:38:43,392 --> 00:38:45,832
Speaker 1: Because when he got arrested, I'd lost everything, but I

709
00:38:45,911 --> 00:38:50,272
Speaker 1: still had my job, so I still had my monthly income, right.

710
00:38:50,312 --> 00:38:54,232
Speaker 1: And it's not lost on me that I'm very fortunate

711
00:38:54,272 --> 00:38:55,991
Speaker 1: and I was very privileged to have that job. It

712
00:38:56,031 --> 00:38:58,152
Speaker 1: was a good job. I had a very supportive employer.

713
00:38:58,192 --> 00:39:01,232
Speaker 1: I was being paid well and that is the only

714
00:39:01,312 --> 00:39:05,352
Speaker 1: way I got myself out of my financial hole. But

715
00:39:06,072 --> 00:39:08,991
Speaker 1: he was about to take that away not long before

716
00:39:09,031 --> 00:39:13,791
Speaker 1: he got arrested. And again financial course of control, right,

717
00:39:14,232 --> 00:39:17,352
Speaker 1: because I would have been completely reliant on him, and

718
00:39:17,511 --> 00:39:20,231
Speaker 1: also too in my head, I'm going, in what world

719
00:39:20,352 --> 00:39:21,911
Speaker 1: am I going to get a million dollars to pay

720
00:39:21,951 --> 00:39:22,392
Speaker 1: you back?

721
00:39:22,632 --> 00:39:23,471
Speaker 2: Like what?

722
00:39:24,312 --> 00:39:26,551
Speaker 1: And I just said, look, I'm having a really bad day.

723
00:39:26,551 --> 00:39:28,192
Speaker 1: It's going to be final. Just I just need a

724
00:39:28,192 --> 00:39:32,672
Speaker 1: good sleep, and thank the Lord, I didn't lose, you know,

725
00:39:32,792 --> 00:39:36,631
Speaker 1: leave my job or forego my income because had I

726
00:39:36,792 --> 00:39:39,752
Speaker 1: done that and he got arrested soon after, I actually

727
00:39:39,792 --> 00:39:41,031
Speaker 1: don't know where i'd be right now.

728
00:39:44,152 --> 00:39:46,551
Speaker 2: Next, Tracy tells us about the moment it clicked for

729
00:39:46,632 --> 00:39:50,191
Speaker 2: her that the man she knew as Max wasn't who

730
00:39:50,232 --> 00:39:56,232
Speaker 2: he said he was. I want to talk about your friends,

731
00:39:57,551 --> 00:40:02,632
Speaker 2: because they they were suspicious from the kind of the start.

732
00:40:02,991 --> 00:40:05,472
Speaker 1: There were some more than others, And I think people

733
00:40:06,312 --> 00:40:07,951
Speaker 1: I have not really had a point of view, but

734
00:40:08,232 --> 00:40:11,272
Speaker 1: I guess when your friend has been through a divorce

735
00:40:11,352 --> 00:40:14,591
Speaker 1: and has met someone new and seems really happy, you

736
00:40:14,632 --> 00:40:17,631
Speaker 1: want to be happy for your friends. They didn't know him,

737
00:40:17,832 --> 00:40:19,712
Speaker 1: they hadn't spent time with him. They may have come

738
00:40:19,752 --> 00:40:22,832
Speaker 1: across him very briefly, and you know, I guess from

739
00:40:22,872 --> 00:40:26,352
Speaker 1: the outside he was quirky. He did want to just

740
00:40:26,431 --> 00:40:29,271
Speaker 1: be him and I. But to me that made sense

741
00:40:29,312 --> 00:40:31,832
Speaker 1: because we didn't get a lot of time together because

742
00:40:31,832 --> 00:40:34,591
Speaker 1: of my schedule with my daughter. So you know, when

743
00:40:34,592 --> 00:40:36,192
Speaker 1: we did get time and they'd say, hey, let's go

744
00:40:36,232 --> 00:40:38,832
Speaker 1: for dinner with these friends, he'd say, Oh, I haven't

745
00:40:38,832 --> 00:40:41,712
Speaker 1: seen you for two weeks, by Blake, can it just

746
00:40:41,752 --> 00:40:45,552
Speaker 1: be us? And you know, again, music to your ears

747
00:40:46,672 --> 00:40:48,671
Speaker 1: because I'm like, oh, he just wants to get to

748
00:40:48,712 --> 00:40:50,991
Speaker 1: know me, and in those early stages of relationship, I

749
00:40:50,991 --> 00:40:53,712
Speaker 1: guess that's what you do. But yes, there were friends

750
00:40:53,792 --> 00:40:58,672
Speaker 1: that were definitely suspicious, had their spidery senses up. But

751
00:40:58,712 --> 00:41:00,912
Speaker 1: there was only one friend really that I had told

752
00:41:00,951 --> 00:41:04,272
Speaker 1: what I was doing with him. And she is an

753
00:41:04,312 --> 00:41:08,712
Speaker 1: incredibly curious person, Cath and she would ask questions and

754
00:41:08,752 --> 00:41:10,832
Speaker 1: ask questions and she still does to this day, until

755
00:41:10,872 --> 00:41:13,911
Speaker 1: she gets to the bottom. It's very not never surface

756
00:41:14,112 --> 00:41:17,991
Speaker 1: with her. And she'd found out that he was encouraging

757
00:41:18,031 --> 00:41:20,552
Speaker 1: me to do my super set up for self managed

758
00:41:20,551 --> 00:41:23,872
Speaker 1: super and anyway, I had sort of divulged a bit

759
00:41:23,911 --> 00:41:26,832
Speaker 1: of this information to her, and she took me for

760
00:41:26,911 --> 00:41:30,872
Speaker 1: breakfast one morning and she was crying across the table.

761
00:41:30,991 --> 00:41:33,352
Speaker 1: And this is the most stoic woman like I've none of,

762
00:41:33,431 --> 00:41:36,431
Speaker 1: like eighteen years, I've never seen her cry before. And

763
00:41:36,511 --> 00:41:38,872
Speaker 1: she's holding my hand and she's got tears running down

764
00:41:38,872 --> 00:41:41,232
Speaker 1: her face, and I'm thinking something's happened to one of

765
00:41:41,272 --> 00:41:45,631
Speaker 1: her kids, like what could possibly be wrong? And she said,

766
00:41:45,712 --> 00:41:48,712
Speaker 1: I'm really worried about you investing your money with Max,

767
00:41:49,792 --> 00:41:52,792
Speaker 1: And I was like, what are you talking about? So Trace,

768
00:41:52,951 --> 00:41:55,832
Speaker 1: I don't think he's who he says he is. And

769
00:41:55,872 --> 00:41:58,471
Speaker 1: I was like, and I was so confused at the

770
00:41:58,511 --> 00:42:00,832
Speaker 1: time because in my head, I'm thinking, but you've never

771
00:42:00,872 --> 00:42:03,111
Speaker 1: even met him, you know. But of course she had

772
00:42:03,152 --> 00:42:07,111
Speaker 1: heard things, and you know, I'm notes to me she

773
00:42:07,232 --> 00:42:11,352
Speaker 1: was doing her background due diligence on him and you know,

774
00:42:11,471 --> 00:42:14,031
Speaker 1: running number plates on the car and riding off to

775
00:42:14,152 --> 00:42:17,072
Speaker 1: universities in America that he said he went to paying

776
00:42:17,112 --> 00:42:18,031
Speaker 1: money to get go.

777
00:42:18,192 --> 00:42:18,472
Speaker 2: Cath.

778
00:42:18,712 --> 00:42:22,551
Speaker 1: Yeah, she like she needs an investigative journalist job one

779
00:42:22,632 --> 00:42:25,511
Speaker 1: hundred percent. And you know, I didn't know any of

780
00:42:25,511 --> 00:42:27,352
Speaker 1: this at the time, and I said, Kath, he's my

781
00:42:27,471 --> 00:42:30,511
Speaker 1: solid person I've ever met. You'll see, You'll see when

782
00:42:30,511 --> 00:42:33,751
Speaker 1: you meet him. He's amazing, and I'm happier than I've

783
00:42:33,792 --> 00:42:36,832
Speaker 1: ever been. He's got my back, and you know, we're

784
00:42:36,832 --> 00:42:41,152
Speaker 1: building a future together. And I one hundred percent believed that.

785
00:42:42,112 --> 00:42:45,352
Speaker 1: And she could see everything and I just couldn't see it.

786
00:42:45,352 --> 00:42:47,312
Speaker 1: And I think it's important to say too. I had

787
00:42:47,312 --> 00:42:49,911
Speaker 1: my rose colored glasses on, and when you're wearing your

788
00:42:50,031 --> 00:42:53,112
Speaker 1: rose colored glasses, all the red flags are just flags.

789
00:42:53,911 --> 00:42:57,512
Speaker 1: So you know, I didn't heed that warning. I didn't

790
00:42:57,511 --> 00:42:59,911
Speaker 1: heed that warning. And I also didn't talk about what

791
00:42:59,991 --> 00:43:01,591
Speaker 1: I was doing. And that's one of my pieces of

792
00:43:01,632 --> 00:43:04,472
Speaker 1: advice for people with money. Money's really hard to talk about.

793
00:43:04,551 --> 00:43:07,752
Speaker 1: It is sicky, it's still it's like it's one of

794
00:43:07,792 --> 00:43:11,951
Speaker 1: the last taboos. Yeah, and I don't really understand why.

795
00:43:12,632 --> 00:43:17,951
Speaker 1: And I believe that had I spoken to five Caths

796
00:43:18,272 --> 00:43:21,472
Speaker 1: or five of my best years about what I was doing,

797
00:43:21,632 --> 00:43:23,192
Speaker 1: most of them would have come back and said the

798
00:43:23,232 --> 00:43:25,991
Speaker 1: same thing. And maybe four out of those five had

799
00:43:26,112 --> 00:43:29,671
Speaker 1: had that conversation with me, a very difficult conversation because

800
00:43:29,672 --> 00:43:32,991
Speaker 1: she didn't want to be right. She didn't want him

801
00:43:33,072 --> 00:43:36,192
Speaker 1: to be who he was. She didn't know who he was.

802
00:43:36,232 --> 00:43:38,511
Speaker 1: She just knew it was off, and she didn't want

803
00:43:38,511 --> 00:43:40,471
Speaker 1: to be right. She wanted me to be happy, and

804
00:43:40,511 --> 00:43:42,431
Speaker 1: so it's a hard conversation for her to have. She

805
00:43:42,431 --> 00:43:47,111
Speaker 1: thought we'd lose our friendship and so difficult but necessary.

806
00:43:47,232 --> 00:43:50,591
Speaker 1: And had a bunch of my friends had that conversation

807
00:43:50,712 --> 00:43:54,791
Speaker 1: with me, then perhaps I wouldn't be where I am now.

808
00:43:55,551 --> 00:43:58,152
Speaker 2: Well, it ended up being Cath who kind of broke

809
00:43:58,272 --> 00:44:01,712
Speaker 2: the news to you that he'd been arrested. Take me

810
00:44:01,712 --> 00:44:05,792
Speaker 2: back to July twenty seventeen, because by that point, eighteen months.

811
00:44:05,911 --> 00:44:09,191
Speaker 2: You love this man, you trust him wholeheartedly.

812
00:44:09,511 --> 00:44:14,191
Speaker 1: For building a future together. Yeah. So essentially I had

813
00:44:14,192 --> 00:44:16,991
Speaker 1: not heard from him in over twenty four hours, which

814
00:44:17,031 --> 00:44:19,191
Speaker 1: was very, very unusual. This is a man I spoke

815
00:44:19,232 --> 00:44:22,832
Speaker 1: to like ten times a day, and I missed a

816
00:44:22,832 --> 00:44:24,031
Speaker 1: call from him, and I spent the rest of the

817
00:44:24,112 --> 00:44:26,272
Speaker 1: day trying to get back in touch. By that night,

818
00:44:26,632 --> 00:44:28,992
Speaker 1: I was getting pretty worried because I thought this is odd,

819
00:44:29,792 --> 00:44:33,672
Speaker 1: and I had a very sleepless night. By five o'clock

820
00:44:33,672 --> 00:44:36,431
Speaker 1: the next morning, I was absolutely frantic. And I was

821
00:44:36,471 --> 00:44:39,392
Speaker 1: so frantic that I called Bondi Police and I asked

822
00:44:39,431 --> 00:44:41,312
Speaker 1: him to do a wellness check on him, because I thought,

823
00:44:41,551 --> 00:44:44,752
Speaker 1: I thought, maybe there's been a surfing accident, maybe something's happened.

824
00:44:44,792 --> 00:44:47,551
Speaker 1: I just know, I just knew it wasn't right. And

825
00:44:47,712 --> 00:44:50,111
Speaker 1: so I gave them all of his personal details and

826
00:44:50,152 --> 00:44:53,551
Speaker 1: they were off doing that, and Kath called me and

827
00:44:53,551 --> 00:44:55,352
Speaker 1: she said, how are you? And I said, I haven't

828
00:44:55,352 --> 00:44:58,752
Speaker 1: slept a wink. Something's happened to Max, and I don't know,

829
00:44:59,232 --> 00:45:02,712
Speaker 1: like I'm really worried. And she said, I'm going to

830
00:45:02,752 --> 00:45:08,951
Speaker 1: send you a link to a new article and you're

831
00:45:08,991 --> 00:45:10,431
Speaker 1: gonna look at it. And then you're gonna call me

832
00:45:10,471 --> 00:45:13,031
Speaker 1: straight back, and she sent me the link to the

833
00:45:13,072 --> 00:45:17,071
Speaker 1: crime Stoppers video of him being arrested, and you know,

834
00:45:17,272 --> 00:45:19,711
Speaker 1: I was just in disbelief. You know, I had kids

835
00:45:19,752 --> 00:45:22,672
Speaker 1: around me running around, off to school holiday camps, and

836
00:45:22,752 --> 00:45:26,312
Speaker 1: I'm trying to sort of digest this piece of information.

837
00:45:26,551 --> 00:45:28,792
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, I knew it was him. His

838
00:45:28,872 --> 00:45:31,991
Speaker 1: face was all blurred out, but he's very distinct, and

839
00:45:32,072 --> 00:45:36,112
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's a mistake, there's something. There's a mistake.

840
00:45:36,152 --> 00:45:39,591
Speaker 1: And I called her back and I said, but I

841
00:45:39,592 --> 00:45:41,832
Speaker 1: think they've got it wrong, Cap, They've got it wrong,

842
00:45:42,511 --> 00:45:44,191
Speaker 1: and she said, I don't think they've got it wrong.

843
00:45:44,272 --> 00:45:47,951
Speaker 1: Trace And with that then I was trying to get

844
00:45:47,991 --> 00:45:51,632
Speaker 1: in touch with his family, so with Chris, with Anna,

845
00:45:51,792 --> 00:45:54,672
Speaker 1: with people that knew him, because I'd been on the

846
00:45:54,672 --> 00:45:57,272
Speaker 1: internet all night looking for these people, trying to contact

847
00:45:57,392 --> 00:46:00,751
Speaker 1: them to say have you heard from him? And it

848
00:46:00,832 --> 00:46:02,872
Speaker 1: was you know that it was sort of just this

849
00:46:02,872 --> 00:46:07,191
Speaker 1: this video and a headline about what he had been

850
00:46:07,272 --> 00:46:12,312
Speaker 1: arrested for, and I'm trying to contact his brother in law, Chris.

851
00:46:12,471 --> 00:46:16,551
Speaker 1: And Chris eventually called me back, or he said call

852
00:46:16,592 --> 00:46:19,352
Speaker 1: me back urgently, and in brackets, he wrote Chris Hamish's

853
00:46:19,352 --> 00:46:22,271
Speaker 1: brother in law, and that's the first time I saw

854
00:46:22,312 --> 00:46:25,071
Speaker 1: his name and that I called him and he picked

855
00:46:25,152 --> 00:46:27,151
Speaker 1: up and I said, Chris, who the fuck is Hamish?

856
00:46:27,551 --> 00:46:29,671
Speaker 1: Because his whole time, I'm going it's Max. It's Max,

857
00:46:29,712 --> 00:46:30,232
Speaker 1: It's Max.

858
00:46:30,951 --> 00:46:33,152
Speaker 2: And because there was no name on the crime stoppers,

859
00:46:33,431 --> 00:46:33,991
Speaker 2: it would have been.

860
00:46:33,872 --> 00:46:38,392
Speaker 1: A police Bondai business name. It said Bondai businessman forty

861
00:46:38,392 --> 00:46:41,872
Speaker 1: seven superannuation fraud. And in my head, this is how

862
00:46:42,592 --> 00:46:44,511
Speaker 1: screwed up my brain was at the time. I'm like,

863
00:46:44,511 --> 00:46:46,591
Speaker 1: they've got it wrong because Max was only forty two,

864
00:46:47,672 --> 00:46:49,551
Speaker 1: you know, because of course his age was wrong, his

865
00:46:49,632 --> 00:46:53,032
Speaker 1: name was wrong, everything was wrong. And I called back

866
00:46:53,431 --> 00:46:56,951
Speaker 1: Bondai Police and I said, I just want to let

867
00:46:56,951 --> 00:46:58,631
Speaker 1: you know that you don't need to do the wellness check.

868
00:46:58,752 --> 00:47:03,272
Speaker 1: He's been arrested. They said, yeah, we know, but the

869
00:47:03,392 --> 00:47:06,071
Speaker 1: name of the person, the age of the person, all

870
00:47:06,112 --> 00:47:08,712
Speaker 1: the detail surrounding that person that you said lives at

871
00:47:08,752 --> 00:47:12,031
Speaker 1: that address is actually not the person who lives at

872
00:47:12,031 --> 00:47:15,392
Speaker 1: that address. And I just kind of went, but yeah,

873
00:47:15,431 --> 00:47:17,951
Speaker 1: it is because I've just spent the week, I've just

874
00:47:17,951 --> 00:47:19,192
Speaker 1: spent a year and a half of my life with

875
00:47:19,232 --> 00:47:22,392
Speaker 1: this man like you know, I was convinced that it

876
00:47:22,592 --> 00:47:26,031
Speaker 1: was and they said it's not. And I said, well,

877
00:47:26,072 --> 00:47:28,872
Speaker 1: who is it? What are we talking about? And they said,

878
00:47:28,872 --> 00:47:31,752
Speaker 1: you'll need to call You'll need to call the detectives

879
00:47:31,792 --> 00:47:33,591
Speaker 1: working on the case that have arrested him. We can't

880
00:47:33,592 --> 00:47:36,951
Speaker 1: give you any more information. And that's when everything sort

881
00:47:36,991 --> 00:47:37,992
Speaker 1: of started to fall apart.

882
00:47:38,031 --> 00:47:43,992
Speaker 2: After that, once you had the name his real name, Yeah,

883
00:47:44,031 --> 00:47:47,431
Speaker 2: it didn't take very long to kind of get a

884
00:47:47,471 --> 00:47:51,031
Speaker 2: bit of an idea because he'd already been charged at

885
00:47:51,031 --> 00:47:53,911
Speaker 2: that point. He's certain things.

886
00:47:54,031 --> 00:47:56,752
Speaker 1: Yes, there was a very long list of things that

887
00:47:56,792 --> 00:47:59,392
Speaker 1: he had done in the past that he had been

888
00:47:59,592 --> 00:48:03,031
Speaker 1: in court for or there had been charges laid. He

889
00:48:03,112 --> 00:48:06,591
Speaker 1: had lost a financial advice I think he had a

890
00:48:06,592 --> 00:48:08,951
Speaker 1: futures license. He had lost that, so there was a

891
00:48:09,911 --> 00:48:13,352
Speaker 1: ban on him on the ACIC register. So there was

892
00:48:13,792 --> 00:48:17,111
Speaker 1: once I knew his name, there is a very very lengthy,

893
00:48:17,312 --> 00:48:19,352
Speaker 1: you know, rabbit hole that you can go down and

894
00:48:19,431 --> 00:48:25,911
Speaker 1: learn all about his crimes over the past thirty years, internationally.

895
00:48:25,392 --> 00:48:28,951
Speaker 2: Blogs with people, yep, every like. It was big by then,

896
00:48:29,232 --> 00:48:30,792
Speaker 2: even before all of.

897
00:48:30,672 --> 00:48:34,872
Speaker 1: The yeah stuff before it yeah, yeah, there was a

898
00:48:34,872 --> 00:48:37,272
Speaker 1: lot of people that were very unhappy with things. That

899
00:48:37,312 --> 00:48:40,471
Speaker 1: he had done. You know, Lisa Hoe had been through

900
00:48:40,511 --> 00:48:42,592
Speaker 1: a trial with him.

901
00:48:42,431 --> 00:48:45,312
Speaker 2: Already at that point. Yeah, she is an Australian designer

902
00:48:45,352 --> 00:48:46,511
Speaker 2: for those that don't know.

903
00:48:46,592 --> 00:48:49,392
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was one of the victims. But she had

904
00:48:49,431 --> 00:48:52,711
Speaker 1: taken him to court previously about money that he had

905
00:48:52,752 --> 00:48:55,752
Speaker 1: stolen from her, and that I believe was sort of

906
00:48:55,752 --> 00:48:58,832
Speaker 1: some sort of a superannuation thing as well. So she

907
00:48:58,951 --> 00:49:02,312
Speaker 1: had gone privately to try and you know, call back

908
00:49:02,352 --> 00:49:05,632
Speaker 1: that money and that that was sort of That was

909
00:49:05,672 --> 00:49:09,072
Speaker 1: about six seven months before he was arrested. That case

910
00:49:09,112 --> 00:49:11,471
Speaker 1: went through and there was stuff online about that, but

911
00:49:11,592 --> 00:49:14,152
Speaker 1: of course it was under the name of Hamish McLaren

912
00:49:14,272 --> 00:49:16,312
Speaker 1: so I never saw any of that because I was

913
00:49:16,392 --> 00:49:21,431
Speaker 1: googling Max Tavita. So yeah, there's a very lengthy you know,

914
00:49:21,551 --> 00:49:24,312
Speaker 1: and what's come out from the podcast Who the Hell

915
00:49:24,392 --> 00:49:28,392
Speaker 1: Is ham issues that whilst the Australian police were charging

916
00:49:28,431 --> 00:49:32,592
Speaker 1: him for swindling seven point six million dollars from fifteen victims,

917
00:49:33,352 --> 00:49:35,591
Speaker 1: it's more likely to be eighty to one hundred million

918
00:49:35,592 --> 00:49:39,792
Speaker 1: dollars globally. Yeah, there is almost not one corner of

919
00:49:39,832 --> 00:49:41,992
Speaker 1: the globe that he hasn't stolen money from people.

920
00:49:43,752 --> 00:49:46,872
Speaker 2: That day that you found that out. Can you even

921
00:49:46,951 --> 00:49:49,112
Speaker 2: take yourself back to how you felt?

922
00:49:50,352 --> 00:49:53,991
Speaker 1: I mean at the beginning, shock, disbelief, denial, which I

923
00:49:53,991 --> 00:49:56,792
Speaker 1: think is very natural because I was so confused, and to.

924
00:49:56,752 --> 00:49:59,632
Speaker 2: Have it all changed within such an instant, it's.

925
00:49:59,551 --> 00:50:02,911
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I think that was the hardest thing

926
00:50:02,911 --> 00:50:05,471
Speaker 1: because it took me nearly eighteen months to fall in

927
00:50:05,511 --> 00:50:07,591
Speaker 1: love with his manner. Keep in mind, I'd been through

928
00:50:07,672 --> 00:50:10,832
Speaker 1: a divorce, and you know, divorce is not generally a

929
00:50:10,872 --> 00:50:13,911
Speaker 1: happy thing for anybody, right, You don't come out of

930
00:50:13,951 --> 00:50:17,591
Speaker 1: that intact all the time. So I'd been through that.

931
00:50:18,232 --> 00:50:22,392
Speaker 1: I you know, it had been a slowly you know,

932
00:50:22,471 --> 00:50:26,111
Speaker 1: we built the relationship slowly, and I fell in love

933
00:50:26,152 --> 00:50:28,232
Speaker 1: with him, you know, but it took me eighteen months

934
00:50:28,232 --> 00:50:31,072
Speaker 1: to fall in love with him, and literally within twenty

935
00:50:31,112 --> 00:50:33,832
Speaker 1: four hours, I had to come to terms with the

936
00:50:33,872 --> 00:50:36,551
Speaker 1: fact that I didn't love this man. But in fact,

937
00:50:36,551 --> 00:50:39,991
Speaker 1: this man never actually existed, you know, he was a

938
00:50:40,031 --> 00:50:43,911
Speaker 1: fake person. But then there was a part of me

939
00:50:43,951 --> 00:50:47,431
Speaker 1: that really missed him. And then in the months and

940
00:50:47,471 --> 00:50:51,951
Speaker 1: I'm going to say years after, it was, you know,

941
00:50:52,072 --> 00:50:55,552
Speaker 1: a process of putting myself back together. In the beginning,

942
00:50:55,592 --> 00:50:56,911
Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff I had to do

943
00:50:56,991 --> 00:51:00,352
Speaker 1: really urgently, like really practical things like dealing with the

944
00:51:00,352 --> 00:51:05,032
Speaker 1: ATO and a non compliant potentially like a fraudulent tax return.

945
00:51:05,112 --> 00:51:08,512
Speaker 1: There was my non compliance prenuation fund that had zero

946
00:51:08,592 --> 00:51:12,112
Speaker 1: dollars in it. There was you know, the police statement.

947
00:51:12,232 --> 00:51:14,272
Speaker 1: Preparing the police statement. I think my police statement was

948
00:51:14,352 --> 00:51:17,392
Speaker 1: thirty something pages long. I had to recount eighteen months

949
00:51:17,392 --> 00:51:21,431
Speaker 1: of my life, pull out text messages and emails and conversations,

950
00:51:21,511 --> 00:51:23,911
Speaker 1: remember where we wet like. I had to remember everything.

951
00:51:24,592 --> 00:51:27,511
Speaker 1: I had a six year old at home and I

952
00:51:27,592 --> 00:51:29,631
Speaker 1: was on my own. I was a single mom, and

953
00:51:30,272 --> 00:51:32,352
Speaker 1: you know, I made a decision very early on that

954
00:51:32,392 --> 00:51:35,631
Speaker 1: there'd be no tears at the dinner table because who

955
00:51:35,672 --> 00:51:37,551
Speaker 1: was going to get her where she needed to go,

956
00:51:37,592 --> 00:51:39,151
Speaker 1: Who was going to make her lunch? Who was going

957
00:51:39,192 --> 00:51:41,312
Speaker 1: to get her to her school and activities? If I

958
00:51:41,352 --> 00:51:42,911
Speaker 1: was in the feed and position all day, I didn't

959
00:51:42,951 --> 00:51:47,031
Speaker 1: have anyone so pressed on in that regard. I had

960
00:51:47,031 --> 00:51:49,632
Speaker 1: to get back to work because it was my only

961
00:51:49,672 --> 00:51:52,511
Speaker 1: financial lifeline and it was a big job. But I

962
00:51:52,551 --> 00:51:54,672
Speaker 1: doubled down. I worked harder than I've ever worked. It

963
00:51:54,712 --> 00:51:58,392
Speaker 1: was great distraction, you know, in retrospect, And then I

964
00:51:58,431 --> 00:52:00,632
Speaker 1: had to get really smart, really quickly about my money,

965
00:52:00,672 --> 00:52:02,632
Speaker 1: because I had nothing except my monthly income.

966
00:52:02,752 --> 00:52:05,192
Speaker 2: Did the police give you any sign at the start,

967
00:52:05,232 --> 00:52:08,352
Speaker 2: because obviously all the emotional stuff this man you loved,

968
00:52:08,392 --> 00:52:11,552
Speaker 2: but I'm imagining that you then started going my money

969
00:52:11,872 --> 00:52:15,031
Speaker 2: because you've invested over three hundred thousand dollars with this man.

970
00:52:15,832 --> 00:52:18,471
Speaker 2: Did they give you any sign that you might get

971
00:52:18,471 --> 00:52:18,992
Speaker 2: that back?

972
00:52:19,991 --> 00:52:23,031
Speaker 1: They were pretty honest from the beginning, but they were

973
00:52:23,152 --> 00:52:26,232
Speaker 1: very compassionate and empathetic as well. It wasn't a kind

974
00:52:26,232 --> 00:52:28,392
Speaker 1: of like you'll never see your money again, but I

975
00:52:28,431 --> 00:52:30,591
Speaker 1: think they knew deep down that that money was gone.

976
00:52:30,592 --> 00:52:33,471
Speaker 1: They had been They had been looking and forensically looking

977
00:52:33,511 --> 00:52:36,712
Speaker 1: at his accounts for months, six months.

978
00:52:36,712 --> 00:52:38,911
Speaker 2: They were Why did they contacted you early on?

979
00:52:39,551 --> 00:52:43,272
Speaker 1: Well, I think I think they they what they were

980
00:52:43,312 --> 00:52:45,751
Speaker 1: doing were trying to build a body of evidence from

981
00:52:45,792 --> 00:52:48,712
Speaker 1: people that they So one person had made a complaint

982
00:52:49,152 --> 00:52:53,071
Speaker 1: and then they needed another couple of victims to come

983
00:52:53,112 --> 00:52:57,072
Speaker 1: forward give information. It's actually very, very difficult to prosecute fraud,

984
00:52:57,392 --> 00:53:02,832
Speaker 1: really really hard, because on paper it looks like I

985
00:53:02,911 --> 00:53:05,951
Speaker 1: have freely given him my money, which I did, Yeah,

986
00:53:06,431 --> 00:53:08,911
Speaker 1: but it was done under deceit. It was used for

987
00:53:09,072 --> 00:53:13,031
Speaker 1: nefarious reasons. It was a crime, but to prove that

988
00:53:13,112 --> 00:53:16,111
Speaker 1: it's a crime, there's a lot that goes into that.

989
00:53:16,352 --> 00:53:21,031
Speaker 1: And so to get him arrested and bail refused is

990
00:53:21,072 --> 00:53:22,991
Speaker 1: what they say. So they didn't want to arrest him

991
00:53:23,112 --> 00:53:26,312
Speaker 1: on a very light case and then have him say, oh,

992
00:53:26,352 --> 00:53:28,792
Speaker 1: look it's nothing, give the bail because he was a

993
00:53:28,792 --> 00:53:31,272
Speaker 1: flight risk at that point, so they had to gather

994
00:53:31,431 --> 00:53:34,431
Speaker 1: enough information with people that they knew would give them

995
00:53:34,431 --> 00:53:37,431
Speaker 1: the information they needed to do that. I was not

996
00:53:37,471 --> 00:53:40,191
Speaker 1: one of those people, because, to be honest, I would

997
00:53:40,232 --> 00:53:42,832
Speaker 1: have probably told him, you know, if they had come

998
00:53:42,872 --> 00:53:44,792
Speaker 1: to me and said, Tracy, this is what we're doing,

999
00:53:45,072 --> 00:53:47,511
Speaker 1: this is what we're dealing with. I was in such

1000
00:53:47,551 --> 00:53:49,712
Speaker 1: a deep relationship with him. I think it was too

1001
00:53:49,792 --> 00:53:51,392
Speaker 1: much of a risk for them to do that. You

1002
00:53:51,471 --> 00:53:54,752
Speaker 1: were too close, I think so. And I don't know

1003
00:53:54,872 --> 00:53:57,312
Speaker 1: that they were really that interested in looking at me

1004
00:53:57,352 --> 00:54:00,631
Speaker 1: at that point because they had these other victims that

1005
00:54:00,712 --> 00:54:03,232
Speaker 1: were giving them all the information they needed to know

1006
00:54:03,312 --> 00:54:05,872
Speaker 1: that they had enough charges against him when he was

1007
00:54:05,951 --> 00:54:09,352
Speaker 1: arrested that he would be bail refused, which is exactly

1008
00:54:09,392 --> 00:54:14,551
Speaker 1: what happened. And then I contacted Tom Zadravac, who was

1009
00:54:14,592 --> 00:54:18,151
Speaker 1: the head detective, and he said, you need to come

1010
00:54:18,192 --> 00:54:21,592
Speaker 1: down to the police station straight away. And of course,

1011
00:54:22,072 --> 00:54:24,352
Speaker 1: you know, I got his real name, I got all

1012
00:54:24,352 --> 00:54:26,551
Speaker 1: the details, but everything was very vague. It was like

1013
00:54:26,592 --> 00:54:28,991
Speaker 1: there are a lot of victims. There was millions of dollars.

1014
00:54:29,752 --> 00:54:32,392
Speaker 1: And I think I had a friend with me that

1015
00:54:32,471 --> 00:54:36,752
Speaker 1: day and she said, is it likely that Tracy will

1016
00:54:36,752 --> 00:54:41,511
Speaker 1: get her money back? And they said probably unlikely, But

1017
00:54:41,551 --> 00:54:43,431
Speaker 1: it was never a it was never a hard no.

1018
00:54:44,112 --> 00:54:46,752
Speaker 1: And I guess you always hold out hope that through

1019
00:54:46,832 --> 00:54:49,392
Speaker 1: that court process there's going to be some kind of

1020
00:54:49,511 --> 00:54:53,151
Speaker 1: recovery of funds. But in this case, and what I've

1021
00:54:53,232 --> 00:54:58,671
Speaker 1: learned about this type of crime is that the detectives

1022
00:54:58,752 --> 00:55:01,232
Speaker 1: and the DPP and the police and everyone's working on

1023
00:55:01,272 --> 00:55:03,031
Speaker 1: the case, their job is to put him in jail

1024
00:55:03,031 --> 00:55:05,832
Speaker 1: for the longest period of time possible, and that's what

1025
00:55:05,872 --> 00:55:09,631
Speaker 1: they did. He got an incredibly long sentence based on precedent. Right.

1026
00:55:10,511 --> 00:55:12,672
Speaker 1: Their job is not to go find out money. They

1027
00:55:12,672 --> 00:55:14,911
Speaker 1: don't have the resources, they don't have the technology, they

1028
00:55:14,911 --> 00:55:17,872
Speaker 1: don't have the time. They are so stretched and so

1029
00:55:18,752 --> 00:55:23,151
Speaker 1: you know, whilst that feels unfair, it's like what would

1030
00:55:23,192 --> 00:55:24,991
Speaker 1: you rather, is.

1031
00:55:24,951 --> 00:55:27,192
Speaker 2: It anyone's job to go and find your money or

1032
00:55:27,232 --> 00:55:28,032
Speaker 2: is it just yours?

1033
00:55:28,272 --> 00:55:30,872
Speaker 1: It is mine because it's my money that I lost.

1034
00:55:31,112 --> 00:55:33,872
Speaker 1: And you know, as a group of victims, we could

1035
00:55:34,112 --> 00:55:36,271
Speaker 1: potentially pay somebody to do it. But when you've lost

1036
00:55:36,312 --> 00:55:39,151
Speaker 1: your life savings and you're trying to rebuild your life,

1037
00:55:39,192 --> 00:55:42,031
Speaker 1: you don't have money to pay a private investigator, and

1038
00:55:42,232 --> 00:55:44,872
Speaker 1: you couldn't be throwing good money after bad. You don't know,

1039
00:55:45,152 --> 00:55:47,472
Speaker 1: right and off, sure, money is very hard to trace.

1040
00:55:47,551 --> 00:55:50,232
Speaker 1: If it's been converted to crypto, it's very hard to trace.

1041
00:55:50,872 --> 00:55:54,671
Speaker 1: It is a long bow and it's you know, at

1042
00:55:54,712 --> 00:55:57,511
Speaker 1: that point in time, I didn't have the resources. I

1043
00:55:57,551 --> 00:56:00,552
Speaker 1: didn't have the mental capacity. I didn't have the mental health.

1044
00:56:01,272 --> 00:56:03,832
Speaker 1: I didn't have I was doing everything demon just to

1045
00:56:03,832 --> 00:56:06,511
Speaker 1: get out of bed every day. And you know, so

1046
00:56:06,551 --> 00:56:09,192
Speaker 1: I was dealing with all these very practical things, but

1047
00:56:09,392 --> 00:56:14,951
Speaker 1: underneath I was dying. I was in the biggest, depressed, anxious,

1048
00:56:14,991 --> 00:56:19,471
Speaker 1: shamehold of my life and that was not a great

1049
00:56:19,471 --> 00:56:20,031
Speaker 1: place to be.

1050
00:56:20,991 --> 00:56:24,631
Speaker 2: And he was still contacting you, yes, from prison, Yes,

1051
00:56:25,672 --> 00:56:28,552
Speaker 2: tell me about that, because he wrote you letters, yeah,

1052
00:56:28,672 --> 00:56:30,031
Speaker 2: very weird letters.

1053
00:56:30,392 --> 00:56:33,432
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean again, trying to gain empathy, So lots

1054
00:56:33,431 --> 00:56:36,991
Speaker 1: of musings about how hard things were for him and

1055
00:56:37,031 --> 00:56:38,951
Speaker 1: how much he just wanted a picture of us just

1056
00:56:38,991 --> 00:56:40,672
Speaker 1: to remind him of all the good times. And then

1057
00:56:40,712 --> 00:56:43,671
Speaker 1: he'd list out all the good times and how we

1058
00:56:43,672 --> 00:56:45,991
Speaker 1: were building our life together. In this chapter is just

1059
00:56:46,031 --> 00:56:47,072
Speaker 1: a bump in the road.

1060
00:56:47,192 --> 00:56:48,392
Speaker 2: And what does he mean?

1061
00:56:48,872 --> 00:56:51,352
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think the guy was on shrooms

1062
00:56:51,392 --> 00:56:56,071
Speaker 1: at the time. What do you mean, So, yeah, it

1063
00:56:56,312 --> 00:56:59,551
Speaker 1: was it was quite you know, But I guess you

1064
00:56:59,632 --> 00:57:01,591
Speaker 1: have to understand too from my point of view, I

1065
00:57:01,752 --> 00:57:04,792
Speaker 1: was clutching at straws. I was trying to get any

1066
00:57:04,911 --> 00:57:08,392
Speaker 1: information I could, and so the police couldn't talk to

1067
00:57:08,431 --> 00:57:10,951
Speaker 1: me because it was a legal case. The authorities in

1068
00:57:10,991 --> 00:57:13,151
Speaker 1: the banks and belt Potter and everything, they couldn't talk

1069
00:57:13,152 --> 00:57:15,432
Speaker 1: to me because it was a legal case. His friends

1070
00:57:15,431 --> 00:57:18,232
Speaker 1: and family wouldn't talk to me, and you know, I

1071
00:57:18,312 --> 00:57:21,392
Speaker 1: got no information. So I was just desperate. I was

1072
00:57:21,472 --> 00:57:24,992
Speaker 1: clutching at straws. And he was really keen for me

1073
00:57:25,112 --> 00:57:28,552
Speaker 1: to go and see him in those early in those

1074
00:57:28,592 --> 00:57:35,512
Speaker 1: early days months afterwards, and I just got to the

1075
00:57:35,632 --> 00:57:38,992
Speaker 1: point where I thought, you know, what good could come

1076
00:57:39,032 --> 00:57:40,912
Speaker 1: of me going to see him. This is a man

1077
00:57:40,912 --> 00:57:42,472
Speaker 1: who has not told me the truth for the last

1078
00:57:42,472 --> 00:57:45,552
Speaker 1: eighteen months of my life, and he has taken all

1079
00:57:45,592 --> 00:57:49,832
Speaker 1: of my money, he's lied about everything. In what universe

1080
00:57:50,312 --> 00:57:52,072
Speaker 1: is he suddenly going to look me in the eye

1081
00:57:52,152 --> 00:57:55,472
Speaker 1: and tell me the truth. So I couldn't trust anything

1082
00:57:55,512 --> 00:57:59,352
Speaker 1: he said, and there was part of me that felt

1083
00:57:59,432 --> 00:58:01,112
Speaker 1: like he was just sort of trying to lure me

1084
00:58:01,192 --> 00:58:05,912
Speaker 1: back in some regard. And these letters, like reading them now,

1085
00:58:05,952 --> 00:58:08,112
Speaker 1: they're just like laugh I mean they're in the book,

1086
00:58:08,112 --> 00:58:11,792
Speaker 1: they're just laughable in a way. But yeah, I stopped.

1087
00:58:12,512 --> 00:58:14,752
Speaker 1: I stopped hearing from him when I was sent a

1088
00:58:14,792 --> 00:58:17,992
Speaker 1: bunch of flowers from him to my work one day,

1089
00:58:18,032 --> 00:58:22,672
Speaker 1: a huge bunch of natives, and the card in capital

1090
00:58:22,752 --> 00:58:27,392
Speaker 1: letters said see you soon, love Hamish, and I threw up.

1091
00:58:27,872 --> 00:58:31,232
Speaker 1: I literally threw up in the office bathrooms because I

1092
00:58:31,272 --> 00:58:33,272
Speaker 1: just felt it. I thought he was downstairs waiting for me.

1093
00:58:33,632 --> 00:58:36,272
Speaker 2: You thought he'd had gotten bail or he was out, or.

1094
00:58:36,312 --> 00:58:40,352
Speaker 1: How does a criminal send flowers from jail like.

1095
00:58:40,392 --> 00:58:43,232
Speaker 2: That says I'll like see you soon kind.

1096
00:58:43,112 --> 00:58:45,232
Speaker 1: Of yeah, And it all went along with the letters

1097
00:58:45,232 --> 00:58:47,512
Speaker 1: that were like come see me, come see me. And

1098
00:58:48,032 --> 00:58:50,592
Speaker 1: it was at that point that I then contacted the

1099
00:58:50,672 --> 00:58:53,952
Speaker 1: detectives and because I was just I was a mess.

1100
00:58:54,072 --> 00:58:58,272
Speaker 1: This was like six months after he was arrested, and anyway,

1101
00:58:58,312 --> 00:58:59,752
Speaker 1: it stopped very soon after that.

1102
00:59:01,152 --> 00:59:03,432
Speaker 2: I know that you kind of did get the chance

1103
00:59:03,432 --> 00:59:05,472
Speaker 2: to kind of pepper him with lots of questions. Was

1104
00:59:05,512 --> 00:59:08,272
Speaker 2: any of it true? Did you work with NASA?

1105
00:59:08,552 --> 00:59:09,271
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1106
00:59:09,312 --> 00:59:11,592
Speaker 2: Did you go to MENSA? Was he able to give

1107
00:59:11,632 --> 00:59:14,792
Speaker 2: you did he give you any this was truth? This

1108
00:59:14,952 --> 00:59:15,552
Speaker 2: wasn't truth?

1109
00:59:15,672 --> 00:59:20,552
Speaker 1: Or he just know he was very dismissive of the

1110
00:59:20,592 --> 00:59:22,912
Speaker 1: anxiety I had around all those questions, because it was

1111
00:59:23,032 --> 00:59:25,072
Speaker 1: very much a peppering of what is your name? Where

1112
00:59:25,112 --> 00:59:27,712
Speaker 1: did you? Are your parents alive? What is true? What

1113
00:59:27,872 --> 00:59:29,512
Speaker 1: is not? Where did you go to school? Who are

1114
00:59:29,552 --> 00:59:30,631
Speaker 1: your friends? What about this?

1115
00:59:30,912 --> 00:59:31,032
Speaker 2: Like?

1116
00:59:31,072 --> 00:59:35,432
Speaker 1: I had so many questions and he just responded. I

1117
00:59:35,472 --> 00:59:38,671
Speaker 1: remember him responding with, I get hung up on a name.

1118
00:59:38,792 --> 00:59:42,112
Speaker 1: T It's just a name. It's just a name. You

1119
00:59:42,152 --> 00:59:45,152
Speaker 1: know who I am. I'm like, I actually don't know

1120
00:59:45,192 --> 00:59:48,872
Speaker 1: who you are. I have no idea who you are? Like,

1121
00:59:48,912 --> 00:59:51,392
Speaker 1: what are you even talking about? Is it Max? Is

1122
00:59:51,392 --> 00:59:53,912
Speaker 1: it Hamish? Is it McLaren? Is it Watson?

1123
00:59:54,152 --> 00:59:54,272
Speaker 2: Like?

1124
00:59:54,712 --> 00:59:58,232
Speaker 1: What is your name? Who are you? It's like, it's

1125
00:59:58,352 --> 00:59:58,952
Speaker 1: just a name.

1126
00:59:59,832 --> 01:00:02,632
Speaker 2: You mentioned that Hamish got kind of the maximum sentence.

1127
01:00:03,072 --> 01:00:07,192
Speaker 2: It was to start with sixteen years with a non

1128
01:00:07,272 --> 01:00:11,632
Speaker 2: pro period of twelve years as the maximum. I imagine

1129
01:00:11,632 --> 01:00:12,992
Speaker 2: you would have been pretty happy with that.

1130
01:00:13,592 --> 01:00:16,512
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was in shock. That was the next moment.

1131
01:00:16,592 --> 01:00:19,952
Speaker 1: I was really in shock because the you know, the

1132
01:00:20,032 --> 01:00:24,312
Speaker 1: judge read out the sentence and it was it was

1133
01:00:24,392 --> 01:00:26,392
Speaker 1: a really lengthy court day. It was over a two

1134
01:00:26,472 --> 01:00:29,512
Speaker 1: week period and it went on for hours, and he

1135
01:00:29,592 --> 01:00:31,952
Speaker 1: had taken the time to really go through every victim

1136
01:00:31,992 --> 01:00:34,792
Speaker 1: and you know, lay out the true impact because we

1137
01:00:34,832 --> 01:00:37,672
Speaker 1: didn't do we weren't sort of able to do victim

1138
01:00:37,712 --> 01:00:40,191
Speaker 1: impact statements or anything like that, so he was sort

1139
01:00:40,232 --> 01:00:42,631
Speaker 1: of advocating. I felt on behalf of the victims who

1140
01:00:42,712 --> 01:00:46,952
Speaker 1: were all mostly in the courthouse at that time, and

1141
01:00:46,992 --> 01:00:49,112
Speaker 1: he read it out, and I think in my mind

1142
01:00:49,952 --> 01:00:51,872
Speaker 1: when I went in that day, I thought, you know,

1143
01:00:52,032 --> 01:00:55,191
Speaker 1: if he gets five, that's a good act of five

1144
01:00:55,272 --> 01:00:57,191
Speaker 1: or seven that was the number I had in my head.

1145
01:00:57,192 --> 01:00:59,912
Speaker 1: I don't even know what I based that on. I

1146
01:00:59,952 --> 01:01:03,231
Speaker 1: think the police had spoken to ours. There had been

1147
01:01:03,312 --> 01:01:06,472
Speaker 1: a little bit of conversation from the DPP, and I

1148
01:01:06,512 --> 01:01:09,472
Speaker 1: think they were sort of guiding us towards a number

1149
01:01:09,512 --> 01:01:11,472
Speaker 1: to have in your head so that you won't disappoint it.

1150
01:01:12,072 --> 01:01:15,072
Speaker 1: And then he read out sixteen years, and I just

1151
01:01:15,152 --> 01:01:16,912
Speaker 1: kind of had this. It was almost like I blacked out.

1152
01:01:16,912 --> 01:01:20,352
Speaker 1: It was just like this tunnel, this black tunnel happened

1153
01:01:20,432 --> 01:01:23,392
Speaker 1: around me, and it just went down to this point.

1154
01:01:23,472 --> 01:01:26,151
Speaker 1: I remember everyone's like clapping in the gallery and I'm

1155
01:01:26,232 --> 01:01:31,792
Speaker 1: just there going holy shit, Like it was huge, and

1156
01:01:31,872 --> 01:01:34,552
Speaker 1: I'm thinking okay, and I'm I'm doing the sums like

1157
01:01:34,592 --> 01:01:37,192
Speaker 1: what year will that be? How old will I be,

1158
01:01:37,312 --> 01:01:39,072
Speaker 1: how old will he be? Where will I be in

1159
01:01:39,112 --> 01:01:42,512
Speaker 1: my life? Like I was just tunneled into that, and

1160
01:01:42,552 --> 01:01:45,151
Speaker 1: then I came out and I was just like shaking

1161
01:01:45,392 --> 01:01:49,192
Speaker 1: and I was in shock. And you know, that was

1162
01:01:49,192 --> 01:01:51,112
Speaker 1: a good day. That was a good day, but it

1163
01:01:51,592 --> 01:01:54,631
Speaker 1: was the end of a three year process that was very,

1164
01:01:54,752 --> 01:02:00,352
Speaker 1: very exhausting. So I also felt quite tired in that moment.

1165
01:02:00,832 --> 01:02:03,592
Speaker 1: But then he appealed, of course, and the sentence was

1166
01:02:03,632 --> 01:02:07,832
Speaker 1: reduced by four years, so he he received twelve years

1167
01:02:07,832 --> 01:02:10,952
Speaker 1: in the end, nine non prole, and his nine years

1168
01:02:10,952 --> 01:02:12,352
Speaker 1: non proole comes up next July.

1169
01:02:13,592 --> 01:02:16,832
Speaker 2: I don't want to say signs or how do we

1170
01:02:17,232 --> 01:02:21,912
Speaker 2: avoid this, but for romance specific scams. What is your

1171
01:02:21,912 --> 01:02:25,992
Speaker 2: advice to people to try and avoid something like this?

1172
01:02:26,272 --> 01:02:28,312
Speaker 2: It feels very hard to try and avoid. But how

1173
01:02:28,352 --> 01:02:30,671
Speaker 2: do we keep our wits about us?

1174
01:02:30,792 --> 01:02:33,192
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question, and I would say, trust

1175
01:02:33,232 --> 01:02:37,392
Speaker 1: but verify, right, So, don't go into the world being

1176
01:02:37,432 --> 01:02:40,872
Speaker 1: all cynical, be skeptical. Don't be cynical, but trust and verify.

1177
01:02:41,472 --> 01:02:46,752
Speaker 1: So there are things that I dismissed that I should

1178
01:02:46,752 --> 01:02:50,352
Speaker 1: have looked more boldly at and been more curious about

1179
01:02:50,712 --> 01:02:54,631
Speaker 1: the fact he didn't have a digital footprint, wird, didn't

1180
01:02:54,632 --> 01:02:57,512
Speaker 1: even have a LinkedIn No, but had of course had

1181
01:02:57,512 --> 01:02:59,512
Speaker 1: a reason for that, Yeah, and because I asked him

1182
01:02:59,512 --> 01:03:03,232
Speaker 1: about it and but had a very quick response. But yeah, odd, odd,

1183
01:03:03,432 --> 01:03:05,872
Speaker 1: massive red flag. If you are in this day and

1184
01:03:05,872 --> 01:03:08,592
Speaker 1: age with the digital footprint anywhere on the internet, there's

1185
01:03:08,672 --> 01:03:12,392
Speaker 1: nothing written about you like, that's weird. I would say,

1186
01:03:12,392 --> 01:03:16,312
Speaker 1: meet family and friends very quickly. You need people other

1187
01:03:16,312 --> 01:03:20,671
Speaker 1: people to verify this person, especially if you meet as

1188
01:03:20,712 --> 01:03:23,032
Speaker 1: complete strangers on a dating app, which most of us

1189
01:03:23,072 --> 01:03:26,032
Speaker 1: do now, right, I would say that things like there's

1190
01:03:26,072 --> 01:03:29,192
Speaker 1: reverse image searches and things that you can do now

1191
01:03:29,432 --> 01:03:32,272
Speaker 1: had I have done a reverse image search, on Max Tavita,

1192
01:03:33,032 --> 01:03:34,472
Speaker 1: I would have found Hamish McLaren.

1193
01:03:34,672 --> 01:03:36,792
Speaker 2: That's a very sneaky one. Though you don't think to

1194
01:03:36,952 --> 01:03:38,912
Speaker 2: like reverse image search.

1195
01:03:38,672 --> 01:03:42,151
Speaker 1: Your deities, I think you should. I don't think there's

1196
01:03:42,232 --> 01:03:46,632
Speaker 1: anything wrong with that. You are essentially going on a

1197
01:03:46,712 --> 01:03:50,191
Speaker 1: date or going to somebody's house that you don't know,

1198
01:03:50,312 --> 01:03:52,352
Speaker 1: You don't know anything about. You may not have met

1199
01:03:52,392 --> 01:03:54,232
Speaker 1: any of their friends and family, you may not know

1200
01:03:54,312 --> 01:03:58,631
Speaker 1: anything about their history. They could be anybody. So I

1201
01:03:58,632 --> 01:04:01,592
Speaker 1: think it's a safety issue as well. Yes, it feels

1202
01:04:01,632 --> 01:04:03,631
Speaker 1: weird because you want to go into it with an

1203
01:04:03,672 --> 01:04:07,792
Speaker 1: open heart and an open mind to any type of relationship,

1204
01:04:07,872 --> 01:04:10,552
Speaker 1: especially if you have a spark and a connection. But

1205
01:04:11,432 --> 01:04:14,552
Speaker 1: I think it's just it's just one of those things

1206
01:04:14,552 --> 01:04:17,952
Speaker 1: we have to do now unfortunately. So they are the

1207
01:04:17,992 --> 01:04:20,552
Speaker 1: things that I would say, be really, really careful of.

1208
01:04:21,392 --> 01:04:25,232
Speaker 1: I think what happens when we get scammed, and this

1209
01:04:25,272 --> 01:04:28,032
Speaker 1: is the rose colored glasses thing is and what scammer

1210
01:04:28,072 --> 01:04:31,272
Speaker 1: is trying to do is they essentially try to put

1211
01:04:31,312 --> 01:04:34,752
Speaker 1: you into a heightened emotional state. Because in a heightened

1212
01:04:34,792 --> 01:04:37,712
Speaker 1: emotional state, we actually have less access to our logical thinking.

1213
01:04:38,632 --> 01:04:41,631
Speaker 1: And those heightened emotional states, one of them is love

1214
01:04:42,552 --> 01:04:45,272
Speaker 1: because when you're in love, you don't see the things.

1215
01:04:45,432 --> 01:04:47,151
Speaker 1: You know, when you first meet someone and you're in

1216
01:04:47,192 --> 01:04:49,472
Speaker 1: love and everything's great, and then after three years you're like,

1217
01:04:49,592 --> 01:04:50,912
Speaker 1: I hate the way he breathes.

1218
01:04:50,992 --> 01:04:53,472
Speaker 2: Well, they call it the honeymoon period for a reason, that's.

1219
01:04:53,352 --> 01:04:56,592
Speaker 1: Right, And you know you don't see the things because

1220
01:04:56,632 --> 01:05:00,191
Speaker 1: your brain has essentially been hijacked by your emotions. Now,

1221
01:05:00,272 --> 01:05:03,312
Speaker 1: the other emotions that the scammers and fraudss use are

1222
01:05:03,352 --> 01:05:06,912
Speaker 1: fear if you don't do this, this will happen, Excitement,

1223
01:05:06,952 --> 01:05:10,232
Speaker 1: I've got this incredible investment opportunity and you're going to

1224
01:05:10,272 --> 01:05:13,631
Speaker 1: be financially independent if you do this, or hope. So

1225
01:05:13,672 --> 01:05:17,352
Speaker 1: they are essentially the biggest kind of emotional states that

1226
01:05:17,872 --> 01:05:21,512
Speaker 1: if you recognize them within yourself, you can actually start

1227
01:05:21,552 --> 01:05:24,631
Speaker 1: to think, Okay, well, my brain's probably not thinking as

1228
01:05:24,672 --> 01:05:27,992
Speaker 1: critically as it would otherwise, like a friend on the side.

1229
01:05:28,752 --> 01:05:31,512
Speaker 1: So they're the things I say too, is be aware

1230
01:05:31,512 --> 01:05:35,192
Speaker 1: of your emotional state because it'll actually hijack your critical thinking.

1231
01:05:35,552 --> 01:05:37,712
Speaker 1: And this is where talking to friends or having friends

1232
01:05:37,712 --> 01:05:41,272
Speaker 1: involved is really great too, because their brains haven't been

1233
01:05:41,352 --> 01:05:43,791
Speaker 1: hijacked because they think he breathes funny, and he looks weird.

1234
01:05:43,912 --> 01:05:44,832
Speaker 2: Get yourself a cast.

1235
01:05:45,552 --> 01:05:50,712
Speaker 1: Everyone everyone needs everyone needs a cat. We love cat Tracy.

1236
01:05:50,752 --> 01:05:53,072
Speaker 2: Are you happy now? What does your life look like now?

1237
01:05:53,312 --> 01:05:57,232
Speaker 1: My life is great. It's we're suddenly seven years or

1238
01:05:57,272 --> 01:05:59,912
Speaker 1: we're eight, nearly eight years down the track from his arrest.

1239
01:06:00,272 --> 01:06:03,752
Speaker 1: It has been I hate this word, but a journey.

1240
01:06:04,112 --> 01:06:07,631
Speaker 1: You know, a lot has happened. And yeah, there were

1241
01:06:07,712 --> 01:06:11,472
Speaker 1: a couple of really really hard years and a lot

1242
01:06:11,472 --> 01:06:13,592
Speaker 1: of just I don't know how I'm going to get

1243
01:06:13,592 --> 01:06:17,592
Speaker 1: out of bed today years, but over time and with

1244
01:06:17,672 --> 01:06:20,552
Speaker 1: the right support and the right mindset, and you know,

1245
01:06:20,632 --> 01:06:23,872
Speaker 1: having things like my daughter and my job, and you know,

1246
01:06:23,912 --> 01:06:28,072
Speaker 1: incredible friends, and that's helped me through, and you know,

1247
01:06:28,272 --> 01:06:32,952
Speaker 1: a truckload of therapy, all different types of therapy to

1248
01:06:32,952 --> 01:06:36,832
Speaker 1: help me really understand how how something like this could

1249
01:06:36,832 --> 01:06:38,752
Speaker 1: happen to someone like me because I never thought it

1250
01:06:38,752 --> 01:06:41,152
Speaker 1: would be me. I never thought this would happen to me.

1251
01:06:41,872 --> 01:06:43,912
Speaker 1: And then of course writing the book was very cathartic.

1252
01:06:43,952 --> 01:06:45,952
Speaker 1: So it's been a journey of just sort of like

1253
01:06:46,072 --> 01:06:50,512
Speaker 1: unraveling the impact it's had on me to a point

1254
01:06:50,552 --> 01:06:52,832
Speaker 1: now where I have a fire in my belly to

1255
01:06:53,032 --> 01:06:55,592
Speaker 1: ensure that this does not happen to one single more

1256
01:06:55,632 --> 01:06:59,432
Speaker 1: person ever, and I know that's a naive thought, but

1257
01:06:59,632 --> 01:07:01,792
Speaker 1: I will do whatever I can to do it. So

1258
01:07:01,912 --> 01:07:04,552
Speaker 1: I speak to corporate's full time about this. I work

1259
01:07:04,632 --> 01:07:09,272
Speaker 1: with corporations to enhance their communications, to make sure that

1260
01:07:09,912 --> 01:07:13,872
Speaker 1: what they're pushing out is effective and impactful. And so

1261
01:07:14,512 --> 01:07:16,432
Speaker 1: that's what I'm spending my time and energy on now,

1262
01:07:16,512 --> 01:07:19,832
Speaker 1: and that has given me so much purpose in life.

1263
01:07:19,992 --> 01:07:23,112
Speaker 1: And yeah, I am happy. I mean, he's been in

1264
01:07:23,192 --> 01:07:26,032
Speaker 1: jail for nearly eight years. I get to see the

1265
01:07:26,032 --> 01:07:29,432
Speaker 1: ocean every day, like, who is winning? I'm winning? I'm winning.

1266
01:07:29,832 --> 01:07:32,552
Speaker 1: So you know, I think about things like that. I

1267
01:07:32,552 --> 01:07:34,872
Speaker 1: think about how grateful I am and the life that

1268
01:07:34,912 --> 01:07:39,392
Speaker 1: I have, and certainly my future is probably going to

1269
01:07:39,392 --> 01:07:41,912
Speaker 1: pan out a little differently to what it was previously,

1270
01:07:42,032 --> 01:07:43,711
Speaker 1: but that's okay as well.

1271
01:07:44,472 --> 01:07:45,752
Speaker 2: And you found love again, haven't you.

1272
01:07:45,912 --> 01:07:47,032
Speaker 1: I have found love again.

1273
01:07:47,432 --> 01:07:50,952
Speaker 2: Yes, so you can trust again eventually.

1274
01:07:52,152 --> 01:07:55,952
Speaker 1: Well, yes, the person I've known for a very long time.

1275
01:07:55,992 --> 01:07:59,032
Speaker 1: We work together in the early two thousands at a

1276
01:07:59,032 --> 01:08:02,631
Speaker 1: hedge fund, and so I've known him for a very

1277
01:08:02,712 --> 01:08:06,512
Speaker 1: very long time. So that's probably why I can trust him.

1278
01:08:07,192 --> 01:08:08,992
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it wasn't him. I might be

1279
01:08:09,032 --> 01:08:09,712
Speaker 1: a cat lady.

1280
01:08:11,352 --> 01:08:13,392
Speaker 2: I think what I take away from your book and

1281
01:08:13,432 --> 01:08:17,272
Speaker 2: your experience is that this really can happen to anyone.

1282
01:08:17,512 --> 01:08:21,512
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it can. I think it's safe to say

1283
01:08:21,552 --> 01:08:25,072
Speaker 1: we are all far more financially and digitally vulnerable than

1284
01:08:25,072 --> 01:08:27,592
Speaker 1: we think we are. No one thinks it's going to

1285
01:08:27,631 --> 01:08:33,671
Speaker 1: happen to them, you know, And in my experience from

1286
01:08:33,711 --> 01:08:35,871
Speaker 1: what I've learned and all the people that have reached

1287
01:08:35,872 --> 01:08:37,831
Speaker 1: out to me, it doesn't matter how smart you are,

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01:08:38,152 --> 01:08:40,272
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter where you're educated, it doesn't matter what

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01:08:40,352 --> 01:08:43,072
Speaker 1: family you were brought up in, where you've traveled, how

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01:08:43,072 --> 01:08:46,071
Speaker 1: intuitive you think you are. It can happen to anyone

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01:08:46,112 --> 01:08:51,552
Speaker 1: because these nefarious characters are professionals and they're very very

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01:08:51,631 --> 01:08:56,112
Speaker 1: good at what they do. They're psychological weapons, and you know,

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01:08:56,952 --> 01:08:58,512
Speaker 1: we have to be on the lookout. We have to

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01:08:58,552 --> 01:08:59,672
Speaker 1: be really vigilant.

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01:09:06,432 --> 01:09:09,552
Speaker 2: Thanks to Tracy for telling us her story. True Crime

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01:09:09,592 --> 01:09:13,272
Speaker 2: Conversations is Amma mea podcast hosted and produced by me

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01:09:13,432 --> 01:09:17,392
Speaker 2: Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown.

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01:09:18,032 --> 01:09:20,232
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

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01:09:20,432 --> 01:09:21,992
Speaker 2: with another true crime conversation