Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: Because I'm doing all this press. Someone said, one of
Speaker 1: the radio DJs went, how do you You obviously just don't
Speaker 1: give a shit about what people think, and I'm like, oh, hello,
Speaker 1: I have full blown, like shaking, sweating, week long not
Speaker 1: being able to sleep or eat breakdowns that my poor
Speaker 1: freaking wife's like, you shouldn't have said something.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast
Speaker 2: that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from
Speaker 2: the people who appear to have it all. I'm Klas Stevens,
Speaker 2: and today's guest is Tim Mitchin. He's an award winning composer,
Speaker 2: a songwriter, an actor, a writer, a musician, a poet,
Speaker 2: a comedian. He has so many things it is exhausting
Speaker 2: just thinking about it. You might know him as the
Speaker 2: composer and lyricist of Matilda, the musical, which won an
Speaker 2: Olivier Award, a Tony Award, and was nominated for a Grammy.
Speaker 2: Or you might also know him as the writer and
Speaker 2: performer of iconic songs like White Wine, in the sun, not.
Speaker 3: Expecting big presence. The old combination of socks jockson chocolates
Speaker 3: is just fine by me, Ka, my brother and sisters,
Speaker 3: my gran and my mom. They'll be drinking wild wine.
Speaker 2: And the ort from one of the viral commencement addresses
Speaker 2: He's done where he eloquently expresses his thoughts on art
Speaker 2: and life and success and kindness and thriving. There were
Speaker 2: parts during this chat with Tim where I was nervous,
Speaker 2: and I realized it was because it's quite rare to
Speaker 2: come across someone who is entirely forthright around their ideas
Speaker 2: and his forthright because he genuinely wants to discuss them
Speaker 2: and he's willing to have them challenged. And it reminded
Speaker 2: me that we really do self censor, and that means
Speaker 2: that sometimes we don't have the important conversations that we
Speaker 2: should be. This interview really stuck with me, and it
Speaker 2: really challenged me because I think we explored some fascinating
Speaker 2: ideas around shame and having a public profile, and Tim
Speaker 2: discussed what it's like to seriously contend with whether you
Speaker 2: should speak your mind when there can be a cost
Speaker 2: associated with that and when you can be misrepresented and
Speaker 2: you know how frustrating that feels. I feel like this
Speaker 2: conversation was a journey and I really got to a
Speaker 2: part of Tim that hadn't been explored before I started
Speaker 2: this conversation the way I start all my chats on.
Speaker 2: But are you happy with asking Tim about his childhood?
Speaker 2: His Tim?
Speaker 1: No, I don't think we grew up in a happy
Speaker 1: fam all right. So the long answer is, I think
Speaker 1: we grew up in a family that's as happy as
Speaker 1: one should reasonably expect, given that when you're one of
Speaker 1: four kids' life's complicated and tough for the primary care
Speaker 1: and in the case of old fashion relationships where the
Speaker 1: mum was the primary carer like ours, and dad was
Speaker 1: the worker and he was a surgeon and he was
Speaker 1: very dedicated to his work. And without a doubt, I
Speaker 1: think we had a happy family and we are very
Speaker 1: very close, remained very very close. But it was not
Speaker 1: happiness wasn't the goal. Happiness is It's a side.
Speaker 2: Effect, right, What do you think was the central ethos
Speaker 2: of your family when you're growing up?
Speaker 1: I think the family was the central ethos, so that
Speaker 1: one owes one's family loyalty and dedication and work, and
Speaker 1: it was just sort of expected that the team was
Speaker 1: the priority, and the team was the family, and that
Speaker 1: extended to a lot of close first cousins and stuff.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't didactic, It wasn't explained to particularly. That
Speaker 1: was just the underlying truth was that you owe your siblings.
Speaker 1: We weren't all happy clappy. We had our arguments and stuff,
Speaker 1: but we weren't really allowed to argue. We certainly weren't
Speaker 1: allowed to say we hate each other or anything. And
Speaker 1: there was a sense that we owed each other loyalty
Speaker 1: and entertainment and help. And my younger sisters quite a
Speaker 1: lot younger than the other ones, and when she came along,
Speaker 1: even in nineteen twenty, when I was still living at home,
Speaker 1: I sort of had a curfew, and the curfew was
Speaker 1: mostly based around, well, your sisters still in her early teens,
Speaker 1: and she might need a lift to hockey tomorrow, and
Speaker 1: you owe the family work. So the family itself was
Speaker 1: the family's ethos.
Speaker 2: Do you remember having like early challenges to happiness, like
Speaker 2: when you were a kid, like in primary school. Did
Speaker 2: you feel like you could be just a carefree child
Speaker 2: in that innocent way, or did you have any neuroticism
Speaker 2: that sort of peaked its head.
Speaker 1: At no point in my life have I felt that
Speaker 1: being simply happy was the dominant. It's always complicated. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've grown up into not a neurotic person, but an
Speaker 1: incredibly probably dysfunctionally met a cognitive person, like I have
Speaker 1: thoughts about my thoughts, and then I have thoughts about
Speaker 1: those thoughts I've had about my thoughts. I think it's
Speaker 1: good and humans should have more thoughts about their thoughts,
Speaker 1: checking on themselves more. But it can be tiring. As
Speaker 1: a kid, I had bad hearing, and I was sort
Speaker 1: of deaf a lot of the time. And I was
Speaker 1: a chubby kid, and I was asthmatic, and I went
Speaker 1: to hospital a few times with allergic stuff, and so
Speaker 1: I was like a bit of a mess. I grow
Speaker 1: out of it all quite quickly, and by certainly by
Speaker 1: my teens, I had grown out of all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: But I think my early memories of school and stuff
Speaker 1: were not happy. I felt and sad and like an outsider.
Speaker 1: But I don't think it was uncommon. I think that's
Speaker 1: what childhood is. You don't quite understand why you're in
Speaker 1: this classroom, and you don't understand why the teachers looks
Speaker 1: cross with you, and you don't understand why your mom's
Speaker 1: dropped you off and booted you out of a car,
Speaker 1: And those are my earliest memories. I think that memories.
Speaker 1: My mum would tell the story of dropping me off
Speaker 1: at school that first day, and so maybe I'm remembering
Speaker 1: them through her eyes.
Speaker 2: You have just released a book called You Don't Have
Speaker 2: to Have a Dream, and it's based on these speeches
Speaker 2: you've given at universities, viral speeches people will have seen
Speaker 2: at least clips of them. And in one that you
Speaker 2: gave at Woppa where you went, you have a bit
Speaker 2: of advice where you say comparing yourself to others in
Speaker 2: any area of your life is poison It sounds like
Speaker 2: maybe you had a little bit of that as a kid,
Speaker 2: seeing yourself as a bit of an outsider, and then
Speaker 2: you saying your speech that you had it while you
Speaker 2: were at Whoppa. What was kind of the raw reality
Speaker 2: of jealousy at that stage, What did it feel like
Speaker 2: and how did it manifest?
Speaker 1: I think I still have it. I think the flip
Speaker 1: side of it being poisoned is it can be very motivating.
Speaker 1: I think it is poison to happiness but again, happiness
Speaker 1: is not the only game in town. It's not the
Speaker 1: only currency. In fact, it's quite a hard one. I
Speaker 1: find it hard to even grab onto. I sort of
Speaker 1: think satisfaction or achievement or I don't know, there's lots
Speaker 1: of we can unpack happiness, I guess. But I'm quite competitive.
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't get to do what I've done
Speaker 1: if you're not. There's not a bit of an engine
Speaker 1: underneath it. And jealousy doesn't sound quite right, and competitive
Speaker 1: doesn't even feel quite right. I'm very self competitive. I'm
Speaker 1: quite hard on myself, probably very hard on myself. But
Speaker 1: again that doesn't feel hugely dysfunctional. When I was very young,
Speaker 1: I don't remember thinking Shah was that person.
Speaker 2: How about at whop up you talk about doing the
Speaker 2: music stuff and looking at the actors who were all
Speaker 2: I think you say something about how they were like
Speaker 2: sweating beautifully. Was there like a resentment there? And in
Speaker 2: your early career where you were in a band and
Speaker 2: kind of doing stuff that was more supporting other people,
Speaker 2: did you have resentment towards people.
Speaker 1: Who didn't feel like that resentment? Definitely, jealousy is closer
Speaker 1: than resentment envy, but It was because I felt like
Speaker 1: I had something and I knew it wasn't what other
Speaker 1: people had, and it wasn't a very strong feeling. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like I'm talented and I'm not being recognized. It
Speaker 1: was more like, I think I'm talented and I don't
Speaker 1: know talented? Was that and that we can unpack that
Speaker 1: word as well. But I've got this group of things.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm quite funny, I'm good lyrics, and I
Speaker 1: play music, and I can act. And yet I can't
Speaker 1: see anyone modeling for me where a person like me
Speaker 1: might fit, you know, quirky and not sort of you know,
Speaker 1: chiseled and taald ark and handsome and largely self taught
Speaker 1: in the way I played music, strange musical inputs. I
Speaker 1: just wondered. I just thought, do you know what? It's more,
Speaker 1: I thought, there are people out there with less talent
Speaker 1: than me doing very well, and that feels a bit unfair.
Speaker 1: I felt a bit chippy about why should they get
Speaker 1: to do this stuff? They can't do half the stuff
Speaker 1: I can do, you know, And that drove me to
Speaker 1: get even better at what I did, which in the
Speaker 1: end meant that I get to have one of those
Speaker 1: careers that people would justifiably be envious of it because
Speaker 1: I've been so lucky in the end, but I was
Speaker 1: so called unlucky. I was frustrated for long enough that
Speaker 1: I had time to get some chops, to get some
Speaker 1: stuff under my belt. So by the time my moment came,
Speaker 1: I had some actual skills, not just a TikTok vid.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And so now that you have this career
Speaker 2: where your multi award winning, you've been critically acclaimed, you're
Speaker 2: just by all measures, doing very body. Well, who are
Speaker 2: you jealous of?
Speaker 1: Now? My brain pings old jealousy pathways. Yep, when I
Speaker 1: just see the same pathways we all have where someone
Speaker 1: seems to briefly just you know, especially like I don't know,
Speaker 1: movie stars and stuff, I just think they've got so
Speaker 1: much attention. But it's that is followed within a microsecond
Speaker 1: by my knowledge that that's nonsense. And to be honest,
Speaker 1: it doesn't ever feel like jealousy. The competitive thing is
Speaker 1: a better description. I just think, Oh I could do that.
Speaker 1: That's how I'm wired, right. I could go see a
Speaker 1: figure skater and go like, oh, maybe I could figure skater,
Speaker 1: you know, I just you know, Certainly, when someone writes
Speaker 1: a book, I think, oh, I want to write a
Speaker 1: novel or someone. You know, if I go see oblique
Speaker 1: classical contemporary classical song cycle, you know, something almost within
Speaker 1: my reach, but outside it, I will feel like, oh
Speaker 1: I should, I should do whatever it takes to be
Speaker 1: able to do that, even though it's never been something
Speaker 1: I've ever considered in my life. You know, Certainly, if
Speaker 1: I go see musicals that are very successful that aren't
Speaker 1: my own, I think, oh God, what do I need
Speaker 1: to do to sort of push out into that area
Speaker 1: a bit? And I'm very good at checking those thoughts
Speaker 1: now because a lot of them are just as I say,
Speaker 1: old pathways. What about you? Do you feel I really
Speaker 1: want to know?
Speaker 2: The reason I'm asking you about it is because what
Speaker 2: you've said before it really resonates. And you've said before
Speaker 2: that you feel like you're trying to prove them wrong,
Speaker 2: but you don't know who they are anymore, but you're
Speaker 2: still trying.
Speaker 1: That's a better Yeah, old me, got it closer, got
Speaker 1: it better, because that's what it is. It's like proving
Speaker 1: to myself that they is probably me. And it probably
Speaker 1: does come from you know, I did have my mum
Speaker 1: was which she was brought up in a way that
Speaker 1: you don't don't fluff up your own kids. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't blow your trumpet all the trumpet of your family,
Speaker 1: and so I definitely didn't get a lot of compliments,
Speaker 1: you know, But she was so full of love. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was such. It was a wild, protective, furious, high
Speaker 1: expectation sort of love, not a your special So we
Speaker 1: could freudianly unpack why but I once that motor is
Speaker 1: there that I need to prove myself, I'll show them.
Speaker 1: You know, you can reject me, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: persevere and I will rise up in the face of
Speaker 1: all these closed doors. Once all those doors are open,
Speaker 1: the wiring's still there. So I have to work on
Speaker 1: it now. I have to work on like dude, you know,
Speaker 1: leave some cake. You know, it's fine, You're doing fine.
Speaker 1: Just make nice work now and ideally be generous with
Speaker 1: your time and your resources to help other people make
Speaker 1: good work. And that brings me great satisfaction. But it's
Speaker 1: something that I have to choose to do intuitively. I'm
Speaker 1: like ice skating. I'm going to skating at all. I'm
Speaker 1: going to be a rally car driver. I'm going to
Speaker 1: write a tone poem. I'm gonna learn to surf. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just the engines there, and the fuel to that
Speaker 1: engine is probably insecurity or a lack of lack of self.
Speaker 1: The fuel is a sense of I'm not enough. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we can unpack that as well. But again, I'm
Speaker 1: not like, I'm not going to cry telling you this.
Speaker 1: It's just like I can identify that and some days
Speaker 1: it sucks. Some days it's heavy feeling like really gross,
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm going to cry. Really, I really don't.
Speaker 2: Like what I say. You know, I think what you
Speaker 2: say is fascinating because we as a culture, we look
Speaker 2: at people like you, and we look at people who
Speaker 2: have achieved enormous things and we're just in awe and
Speaker 2: we think they must be so happy they have everything.
Speaker 2: But do you think sometimes the thing driving that level
Speaker 2: of ambition is something that's that can be really painful.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's the engine that got you there is still
Speaker 1: the engine that drives you, the brain that made you
Speaker 1: do all those hours, and not that it was ever
Speaker 1: work for me. I just love it. But you know,
Speaker 1: I wanted to show people. I wanted to show off
Speaker 1: most performers, it's a show off thing. And then once
Speaker 1: you get an audience or chasing being good enough for them.
Speaker 1: That's another sort of tendril to this conversation is once
Speaker 1: you get an audience and you are playing a nine
Speaker 1: thousand seater with a symphony orchestra, then of course we
Speaker 1: call it imposter syndrome. I'm not very interested in that
Speaker 1: phrase because it feels a bit like something everyone hasn't.
Speaker 2: And it feels imposter syndrome to me always feels a
Speaker 2: bit like a humble brag, like how did I get here?
Speaker 2: I'm so successful and I feel like I shouldn't be.
Speaker 1: But and I don't think that's what people mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's how it feels to me.
Speaker 1: I agree. And also like you're one of the lucky ones, Champ.
Speaker 1: We can talk about your imposter syndrome, or you can
Speaker 1: get on with using your stage or using your mic,
Speaker 1: or using your privilege. But definitely, Oh, there's all these
Speaker 1: people paying money that they saved up for tickets, and
Speaker 1: they've caught their trains and their buses and their planes
Speaker 1: to see me. As recently as the beginning of my
Speaker 1: US tour starting in Vancouver, just six weeks ago, I
Speaker 1: was like in a bookshop looking for contemporary women's fiction
Speaker 1: to come my brain and just burst into tears because
Speaker 1: I had a show that night, and I didn't burst
Speaker 1: into tears, but I felt that because I just if
Speaker 1: there's been a bit of a gap since I last performed.
Speaker 1: I just don't quite believe that person who can do
Speaker 1: that job is inside me until about half an hour
Speaker 1: before I go on, and it's just like, oh, that's fine,
Speaker 1: I'm great, I'm fine, this is gonna be a hoot
Speaker 1: at lunchtime. No way. Man.
Speaker 2: Whereas when you see somebody on stage, you just think
Speaker 2: that they're having the time of their life because usually they.
Speaker 1: Are like and you are in the moment, I'm so
Speaker 1: happy on stage. Yeah, it's but the week leading up
Speaker 1: to my first gig of a tour. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: not a messy cat, Like it doesn't come out like
Speaker 1: I'm not shouting or throwing my toys out of the
Speaker 1: pram or taking drugs or having affairs or any of
Speaker 1: those outward behaviors. But it's a big old battle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and imposter syndrome. I understand why that phrase has become popular,
Speaker 1: but it's just it's just fear that you're not enough,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't go away. So back to your last
Speaker 1: sort of question, Yes, that the engine that makes you
Speaker 1: need to show off and express yourself and put yourself
Speaker 1: out in the world doesn't fade when you success doesn't
Speaker 1: solve whatever that is. But also, and this is trite
Speaker 1: as hell, but I'll just keep saying it. It's all
Speaker 1: through my musical groundhog Day that unfortunately the things we
Speaker 1: think we need, and I've been toalking about on stage
Speaker 1: all through America, I talk about the arrival fallacy. We
Speaker 1: think we need a list of things to make us
Speaker 1: feel better about the world, and we just don't. And
Speaker 1: it's impossible for me to say and be taken seriously
Speaker 1: because I've got everything I want, but through my observation
Speaker 1: and through the experience of getting not just everything I want,
Speaker 1: but way beyond my wildest dreams, and I even mean
Speaker 1: my happy marriage and my beautiful kids, and my lovely
Speaker 1: house that I'm moving into today, and all the different
Speaker 1: areas I've been allowed to work in, and the admiration.
Speaker 1: If that's what it is of many people, it's not
Speaker 1: the thing. It's not the thing that is not what
Speaker 1: happiness comes from wealth, certainly not and everyone says that,
Speaker 1: but again easy for me to say, obviously, if you're
Speaker 1: struggling to pay bills and you've got kids, and we
Speaker 1: can talk about poverty and trauma and suffering, but just
Speaker 1: for now saying, we're talking about people who are okay,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid to say, reporting from the other side, all
Speaker 1: my dreams coming true. I'm afraid to say, I'm about
Speaker 1: as happy as I was when I was playing keyboards
Speaker 1: in a cover band at the Elephant wheelbarrowns and killed up.
Speaker 1: In fact, I might have been happier because I was
Speaker 1: younger and had less responsibilities and hadn't not sort of
Speaker 1: suffered the slings and arrows of being a public figure
Speaker 1: and all that stuff that turns you into a bit
Speaker 1: of an anxious mess. You wouldn't know it listening to
Speaker 1: me and bang on. But all that said, the thing
Speaker 1: I've got to do, I mean, I just love my job,
Speaker 1: and I just there is no career I would rather
Speaker 1: have than this one that I've got, Like this various
Speaker 1: It's hard and good and I'm very, very very lucky.
Speaker 2: I think that what you just said is kind of
Speaker 2: at the core of why I started this podcast, and
Speaker 2: sometimes it does get a little bit eye rollie that
Speaker 2: the idea is interviewing the people who appear to have
Speaker 2: it all and going behind that and saying exactly what
Speaker 2: you just said, that those things that we value are
Speaker 2: not the things that bring meaning, happiness, satisfaction to a life.
Speaker 2: It comes from the intangible things, not from external achievement.
Speaker 2: After the break, Tim tells us about the time he
Speaker 2: should have been happy celebrating one of his biggest career achievements,
Speaker 2: but he wasn't. I ask every guest on this show
Speaker 2: about a specific time the world told them they'd be
Speaker 2: happy or they expected to be happy, and they weren't.
Speaker 2: Do you have a moment in your life where it
Speaker 2: sticks out that you're like, oh, that should have been
Speaker 2: the arrival and it didn't feel how I.
Speaker 1: Thought it would. I mean that that's my life. I
Speaker 1: mean I have I'll tell you what. There was a
Speaker 1: night where I stood on the stage at the Royal
Speaker 1: Opera House in London, in Covent Garden and Matilda the
Speaker 1: musical one the most awards that have ever been one,
Speaker 1: and I was with my friends and actually the awards
Speaker 1: were a thrill and that was fine and the photos
Speaker 1: after are weird. And then I got shunted into the
Speaker 1: after party and that was It's always. So here's a
Speaker 1: tiny one for people who think they want to they
Speaker 1: want to career like this one, it's just always. You
Speaker 1: just want to be with your co creatives, you want
Speaker 1: to be with your family, and you are just you
Speaker 1: don't get to talk to anyone. It's like this panic
Speaker 1: attack of people approaching you and being nice, which is amazing,
Speaker 1: and I'm fine with it because I'm an extroverted person
Speaker 1: and I like people and I have no boundaries and
Speaker 1: I'll take all the hugs. But it's like you eventually
Speaker 1: realize that this party is not for you, it's for them.
Speaker 1: You've been put into that room so that that party
Speaker 1: is cool because the award winners are there, and you're
Speaker 1: just you're the meat. You're the you're the party favor,
Speaker 1: you're the entertainment. You're not the guest. Yeah, and that happens.
Speaker 1: I forget that again every opening night. Please. This is
Speaker 1: not a whine. I'm just clarifying what that's like. But
Speaker 1: after that night, Sarah and I walked home from the
Speaker 1: Royal Opera House to the hotel. We're staying on seven dials,
Speaker 1: which is where the Matilda musical remains to this day.
Speaker 1: And I was very, very happy that night because I
Speaker 1: was with Sarah and I think it was about to
Speaker 1: start to snow. I tell you that story because there's
Speaker 1: been very few. It is not in my nature or
Speaker 1: my upbringing to do very well at rejoicing in those
Speaker 1: big moments, and there's been many. My brain goes, don't
Speaker 1: get too big for your boots. What are you going
Speaker 1: to do next? You know, the race is still being run,
Speaker 1: It's going to get harder, and all that stuff that
Speaker 1: comes from how I was brought up, which is probably
Speaker 1: okay and functional and keeps my feet on the ground
Speaker 1: and a cap on my head and keeps a ceiling
Speaker 1: in a place where I don't get ahead of myself.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think it is something I am working on.
Speaker 1: And I'm not a person who's ever been to therapy
Speaker 1: or anything, but after this, everybody liked I'm working on
Speaker 1: the Groundhog Day lessons that happiness is available to you
Speaker 1: every day, and I'm working on letting myself enjoy my privileges.
Speaker 1: Because of my politics and where I've come from, I
Speaker 1: have spent my adult life going here. Just lucky, mate,
Speaker 1: You're not special.
Speaker 2: Well, I was going to ask about that because a
Speaker 2: lot of people would argue that the huge rise in
Speaker 2: mental health issues and the crisis of meaning people are
Speaker 2: experiencing at the moment, it's like something is going wrong
Speaker 2: culturally in how we're living our lives. I know that's profound.
Speaker 1: But I think the answer is simple. It's just smartphones.
Speaker 1: But anyway, Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 2: Was going to ask, what's your theory on what is
Speaker 2: causing those issues? And I think it's also interesting with
Speaker 2: men specifically, what is causing or those issues? Talk to
Speaker 2: me about the smartphone?
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so, I mean, I'm very happy to have
Speaker 1: a chat. The risk is this becomes my opinion and
Speaker 1: it's sort of written in stone, but prefacing it with
Speaker 1: this is just a chat, and I've got a million thoughts.
Speaker 1: I think the big spike in mental health issues for
Speaker 1: young people correlates or aligns completely with smartphones. And I
Speaker 1: think smartphones are terrible for us. I don't think we're
Speaker 1: meant to see that much news. We're not meant to
Speaker 1: inherit all the people's trauma all the time. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do about that because you
Speaker 1: shouldn't put your head in the sand. But if all
Speaker 1: the world's trauma all the time, if you've got five newsfeeds.
Speaker 1: I did a podcast recently where I reflected on some stuff,
Speaker 1: and the article that came out told one side of
Speaker 1: the story and not the other. And it's just completely
Speaker 1: the opposite of how I talk and think. I am
Speaker 1: always like, well, on this side this and on that
Speaker 1: side that. That's that's what my book's about. It's my
Speaker 1: life's work trying to.
Speaker 2: Have nuance and critical thinking.
Speaker 1: Right. My last work is fun songs, but my internal world.
Speaker 1: And I reflected on that and just went, God, if
Speaker 1: even me a comedian with nothing to say, particularly I'm
Speaker 1: not news, But if every time I speak, the most
Speaker 1: outrageous thing I say is taken out of context and
Speaker 1: turned to headline with a hyperbolic word, that it does
Speaker 1: not reflect my tone. Mintion slams or mention regrets or
Speaker 1: mention opens up about hard times with you know whatever,
Speaker 1: it's just like crazy, not I mean, you're listening to
Speaker 1: me now, It's just not I don't it's not how
Speaker 1: I talk, and it's not how I be. And then
Speaker 1: you think about that filter being applied to hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousand times a day on every tiny issue from a
Speaker 1: dumbass composer comedian talking about ideas to you know, the
Speaker 1: black and white thinking that is. So the news takes
Speaker 1: reality nuanced complex, always turns it into something simple. Then
Speaker 1: then the sub editors turn it into a more simple headline,
Speaker 1: plus exploding the drama of it. And then people online
Speaker 1: take that headline and pile hate on it. And this
Speaker 1: happens hundreds of thousands of times a day, and we're
Speaker 1: consuming it and we're not choosing to consume it. Men
Speaker 1: have got a different thing. There's something very very serious
Speaker 1: and big going on that I shouldn't speak to because
Speaker 1: the conversation has to come from women. But it's all
Speaker 1: populations need pride. Women had pride taken from them when
Speaker 1: they were made subservient and told they weren't good enough
Speaker 1: to do proper jobs and all that. And we've learned
Speaker 1: again and again that you can't take from culture's pride,
Speaker 1: and great ancient cultures that survived for millennia always had
Speaker 1: a place for pride in women's business and men's business,
Speaker 1: or for young people coming through adeless and says pride.
Speaker 1: There's goals, and you're allowed to be proud of who
Speaker 1: you are. And we just need to make sure that
Speaker 1: in trying to correct for the history of the patriarchy
Speaker 1: and white supremacy and all these things, that we don't
Speaker 1: take a population of dufuss blokes and tell them that
Speaker 1: none of the things that culture has told them they
Speaker 1: should be proud of their strength, their military service, nationalism, religion, humor, toughness,
Speaker 1: blokiness is sexual prowess and sexual conquering and all those myths.
Speaker 1: We can't deconstruct them without saying, there's this and this
Speaker 1: is why boys go to these fuck wits.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's sort of the implication is that there's
Speaker 2: intrinsic shame in being a man.
Speaker 1: And I feel it. And I'm an unbelievably privileged, quite
Speaker 1: well educated, you know, wealthy, powerful dude and I am
Speaker 1: you know, I studied feminist literature in nineties, so I'm
Speaker 1: thirty years in to receiving this rhetoric straight white guys
Speaker 1: ruin the world, and I feel it. Imagine if I
Speaker 1: didn't have a job.
Speaker 2: And speaking of shame, I think you said there that
Speaker 2: those two issues were kind of different things. That what's
Speaker 2: happening that the smartphone thing and the men and pride
Speaker 2: and shame sort of two different things. But I think
Speaker 2: we're intersex.
Speaker 1: Sometimes absolutely converged is.
Speaker 2: Shame online And I've been thinking a lot lately about
Speaker 2: as you say, the news gets condensed into things that
Speaker 2: make us feel we click on things that make us
Speaker 2: feel things angry, yep, so and so we are just
Speaker 2: it's like anger, anger, anger, It's like absolutely looking at
Speaker 2: the saddest, scariest things you can possibly look at that
Speaker 2: trigger an emotional reaction. And then I think the problem
Speaker 2: is you're scrolling through a newsfeed and you see war,
Speaker 2: and you see arise in interest rates, and you see
Speaker 2: all these things that are a threat to you, and
Speaker 2: then you see someone who annoys you, and you can't
Speaker 2: respond rationally to the person who annoys you because it's
Speaker 2: in the context of all these horrible, scary things and
Speaker 2: so and so you're crimed.
Speaker 1: Your fight and flight is already are ye. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: is like you're ready for a fight and you can't
Speaker 1: fight the news, but you can fight Oh mate, dickhead,
Speaker 1: who's exactly the wrong word about the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: Why do you think internet pylons feel so easy? Do
Speaker 2: you think people see an opinion online that they don't
Speaker 2: agree with and they're just desperate to tell someone that
Speaker 2: they're wrong. Because I think you can't stop the absolute
Speaker 2: scary beast that you're scared of and that you're looking at,
Speaker 2: But you can pile on that individual who said a
Speaker 2: bit of a stupid thing that wasn't acknowledging all the
Speaker 2: context that was going on at that particular.
Speaker 1: That everyone in the world online has to have the
Speaker 1: same set of information that you have. I have intention
Speaker 1: when I'm online, I'm just telling people I have the
Speaker 1: right opinions. I'm telling my own tribe that I have
Speaker 1: the right opinions about X, Y or Z, about this
Speaker 1: hot spot cultural moment. And when you shout at someone
Speaker 1: who has the wrong opinions, according to you, you are
Speaker 1: giving up on doing anything good in the world. You're
Speaker 1: just going I'm going to show my friends that I've
Speaker 1: got the right opinions, and I'm going to do exactly
Speaker 1: what you said. I'm going to get rid of some
Speaker 1: of this fight or flight juice that's running around my body.
Speaker 1: And what we know is that you have lost that person.
Speaker 1: They will never again listen to you or anyone like you,
Speaker 1: because when they said that genuinely, that all lives matter,
Speaker 1: you called them a racist and you have lost them forever.
Speaker 1: There's tens of thousands of people saying this, why is
Speaker 1: it my fault? Well, same reason. If you don't put
Speaker 1: your recycling out, we don't get recycling done.
Speaker 2: You know, after the break? Does Tim Mention actually have
Speaker 2: regrets about sharing some of his public opinions. You've said
Speaker 2: recently that you regret your song about Cardinal Pell.
Speaker 1: I mean with all you was that, dude, I think
Speaker 1: you're a scarm. I absolutely did not say that. Oh really,
Speaker 1: that is why this is nonsense. Oh my god. The
Speaker 1: interesting thing about that is that article is written from
Speaker 1: a podcast, and you can hear the podcast. That was
Speaker 1: what I was referring to earlier. When I was talking
Speaker 1: about the headline. I said, I can take two looks
Speaker 1: at the Pell moment because I'm a big grown up person.
Speaker 1: To celebrate what I did. There's all these things, all
Speaker 1: the money I raised sent people to the Vatican to
Speaker 1: face him when he refused to come back, all that
Speaker 1: that extra money that was raised from that song that
Speaker 1: helped support and abuse Crisis Center in Balorat for some
Speaker 1: years afterwards, all the hundreds of communications I had from
Speaker 1: survivors saying what that meant to them, Stories of people
Speaker 1: driving their cars and with their elderly dad and suddenly
Speaker 1: realizing he's laughing and then crying and then disclose something
Speaker 1: that had never come out, that had haunted like amazing stuff.
Speaker 1: And I don't tell those stories because even as I
Speaker 1: say it, I'm cringing because it's self serving to tell
Speaker 1: those stories. And I said, but if I wanted to
Speaker 1: steal man the other the other position, these are the
Speaker 1: things that I would go. Yet that's a big thing.
Speaker 1: Is just absolutely not the case that I said. I
Speaker 1: regret the Cardinal pel song and the fact that someone
Speaker 1: put that in the world is so close to a lie. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that you just I mean, I don't know what to
Speaker 1: do about that. I was just saying to a publicist
Speaker 1: in the lift, I'm going to not stop. I hate
Speaker 1: being misread presented. You can imagine the way I talk
Speaker 1: how much it kills me because I try so hard
Speaker 1: to be articulate and thoughtful. To have my words turned
Speaker 1: into someone's clickbait. I hate it, And yet I want
Speaker 1: to sell my book. I want to sell these ideas
Speaker 1: that are in my book, that we should think critically
Speaker 1: about our own ideas and put ourselves in the other
Speaker 1: people's position, walk in other people's shoes all the time,
Speaker 1: even when it hurts. Everyone must keep having nuanced conversations
Speaker 1: and just let the clickbait. And by the way, that
Speaker 1: was a fine article. It's just sad for me. That
Speaker 1: was a fine article written by an excellent person. You know,
Speaker 1: I didn't read it because I knew it would upset me.
Speaker 2: I think it is a big thing, and it's interesting
Speaker 2: that me is somebody who works in media, and it's
Speaker 2: so acutely aware of that that I thought it and
Speaker 2: you're talking about I listened to the original interview, like
Speaker 2: I listened to that, and then I must have seen
Speaker 2: that headline and it conflated those those things. I mean,
Speaker 2: like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember in the podcast.
Speaker 1: I took two points if you wanted the recency effect
Speaker 1: and the headline. Maybe the headline.
Speaker 2: It's the recency and it's the it's the fact I
Speaker 2: think that we're absorbing so much information that you then
Speaker 2: highlight simplify it.
Speaker 1: And of course we do have to.
Speaker 2: And I think that's something interesting. The idea of being
Speaker 2: misrepresented because I imagine that as a public figure, a
Speaker 2: huge challenge to happiness is either the fear of being
Speaker 2: misrepresented or the reality of being misrepresented. And I'm really
Speaker 2: interested in the question of do you think a really
Speaker 2: evolved version of a human being can be fine with
Speaker 2: being totally misrepresented with you can say whatever you like.
Speaker 1: That if you can meet with triumph and disaster and
Speaker 1: treat those two imposts the same, I mean, or.
Speaker 2: Do you think it just goes against the es I
Speaker 2: find it.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: I think I'm more sensitive to it than some you know,
Speaker 1: someone asked me because I'm doing all this press, someone said,
Speaker 1: one of the radio DJs went, how do you You obviously
Speaker 1: just don't give a shit about what people think? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, bro, I have full blown, like shaking,
Speaker 1: sweating week long, not being able to sleep or eat
Speaker 1: breakdowns that My poor freaking wife's like, you shouldn't have
Speaker 1: said something. And I think there's some people who don't care,
Speaker 1: like Josh Zepp's. He definitely cares, but he's just he
Speaker 1: just believes in the in his mission. You know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I care a lot. I got into this game because
Speaker 1: I want people to like me, you know, like that's
Speaker 1: the thing. I really want to make work and I
Speaker 1: want people to like my work, and i want people
Speaker 1: to respect me. So I've got a big need for respect. Right,
Speaker 1: that's just a put a finger on the thing. I'm
Speaker 1: searching for the hole in me that I'm the bottomless pit.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to feel this. I want to be respected.
Speaker 1: I guess I think we all have it, but maybe
Speaker 1: I've got a big case of it. On the other side,
Speaker 1: I really care about ideas, and I actually think in
Speaker 1: Australia now I'm almost forty nine, I've got a reasonable
Speaker 1: profile and I'm an artist who has a reputation for
Speaker 1: trying to unpack ideas. And then I've got this other
Speaker 1: bit of me that's like I'm an idiot, Like who cares?
Speaker 1: Like I'm just a boofheaded? What did Andrew Bolt call me?
Speaker 1: Putting face full? The world doesn't need me, you know.
Speaker 1: I wrote Matilda, just sit in your nice house and
Speaker 1: just shut up. And I don't know which one to
Speaker 1: listen to, because part of me thinks if I can't
Speaker 1: talk about nuanced interpretation of ideas, about where the progressive
Speaker 1: left is going wrong and how self defeating we can be,
Speaker 1: and about social media or about whatever, then no one's
Speaker 1: going to And there's been a couple occasions I'm in
Speaker 1: the pel things, nothing compared to one I had last
Speaker 1: year that I don't want to relitigate, where I got
Speaker 1: taken out of context and piled on about a really
Speaker 1: hot topic. Everyone sees that happen to someone like me,
Speaker 1: and they all just go want me, well, you know,
Speaker 1: thank god, I'm the idiot. I'm the big mouth idiot.
Speaker 1: But I think it's my job. But maybe writing children's
Speaker 1: musicals is my job, you know, So I get really
Speaker 1: caught up in this stuff. I would really like to
Speaker 1: be able to shut up, but I just don't think
Speaker 1: I have it in me, and I don't think that's
Speaker 1: I don't think we should. I think we should keep
Speaker 1: having chats.
Speaker 2: There are people who have been obliterated reputation wise for
Speaker 2: things that you know, some people might be like, fairly
Speaker 2: or unfairly reputation obliterated. And I look at it and think,
Speaker 2: can you lead a happy life if your external public
Speaker 2: reputation doesn't match who you feel you are on the inside.
Speaker 2: I wish, and I think maybe it does make me
Speaker 2: want it to stop.
Speaker 1: Just the thought of all this conversation makes me just go,
Speaker 1: why am I even talking about microphone?
Speaker 2: But that's such a shame. And I think the other
Speaker 2: thing people don't see is that when the public shaming happens,
Speaker 2: when the pylon happens, obviously there's all the dehumanization that happens. Yes,
Speaker 2: but they think they're talking to this person who thinks
Speaker 2: they're fucking amazing and has no insecurity.
Speaker 1: And it's like question, Yeah, from the outside, I look
Speaker 1: like I've got it all, so nothing could hurt my
Speaker 1: sense of self.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but inside you're like, oh, no, no, no, I
Speaker 2: already hate myself. You don't need to say it. Like
Speaker 2: everything you're saying about me, I've told myself. And I
Speaker 2: think that that kind of like role playing of shame
Speaker 2: online then creates an internal narrative of shame in everyone. Ye,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, I walk around and feel shame
Speaker 2: for certain things or feel a certain way and then think, no,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't feel like that, and then feel shame about that.
Speaker 2: And it's like, is that because we're just surrounded by shame?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really really good unpacking. I must admit.
Speaker 1: When I see people pylon, I'm like, guys, ten years ago,
Speaker 1: we didn't quite get it. Like, still you're still doing it,
Speaker 1: you still think this is cool? Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: it's mostly probably people under twenty five. Do you think?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm of the opinion now that it's
Speaker 2: that it's it's us some older people who well, I
Speaker 2: think it's us, But I think also some older people
Speaker 2: who don't fully understand the internet, right, and so don't
Speaker 2: understand that everyone's seeing it.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Every now and then you say something and you go, oh,
Speaker 2: you did not understand that that was But no, I
Speaker 2: think people my and a little bit older at the West.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I'm older than you obviously. But the generation
Speaker 1: who were already adults when twenty twelve came along, when
Speaker 1: smartphones and social media kicked off, we got sideswiped. I
Speaker 1: reckon my kids are gonna solve it. Like my eighteen
Speaker 1: and fifteen year old, they're so far ahead. They don't
Speaker 1: use it for politics, and they're mostly just delete the
Speaker 1: apps because it stresses them out, and they're they're on
Speaker 1: their screens a lot, but they're not addicted like my
Speaker 1: generation is. We got surprised. Yeah, it's like smoking in
Speaker 1: the twenties. Everyone just stuck a cigarette now and we
Speaker 1: just started sucking, you know, like we might not be
Speaker 1: the ones to solve it. There might be them those
Speaker 1: brought up by us, by us going watch out, Yes
Speaker 1: don't Daddy didn't have a choice, but you don't smoke,
Speaker 1: you know, and they'll be like, Okay, we're here, and
Speaker 1: you like, yeah, I've instilled in my kids such anxiety
Speaker 1: about being addicted to them that they'll go, I've been
Speaker 1: scrolling for an hour. I'm going for a job. You know.
Speaker 2: Wow, there's some hope to that. I like that a lot.
Speaker 1: I didn't. We left so many subjects, we left so
Speaker 1: many paths half trod there. It makes me anxious because
Speaker 1: why did I say that? I didn't? Can I just
Speaker 1: say one thing? Because I just I'm so aware that
Speaker 1: it's so elite to be like, oh, sometimes I share
Speaker 1: a nuanced opinion and I get quoted out of context,
Speaker 1: and then people pile on me, and it stresses me out.
Speaker 1: I do think it's important to share that because when
Speaker 1: you've been piled on, it radicalizes you against I'm a
Speaker 1: pretty progressive, lefty sort of guy, but in recent years
Speaker 1: I've been piled on enough by really bullying.
Speaker 2: Sort of people on your side.
Speaker 1: People so that I've had to work on not thinking
Speaker 1: they're my enemy. And there's a many, many examples of
Speaker 1: people being radicalized out of their tribe by criticism. I
Speaker 1: just want to say, I think sharing how it feels.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm on this podcast. And you asked me,
Speaker 1: so I'm sharing it because I always tell the truth,
Speaker 1: try to tell the truth. But it's not me, it's
Speaker 1: the cumulative effect of this as culture. And you pointed
Speaker 1: to a really interesting thing about a sort of all
Speaker 1: swimming in a pool of shame and thinking we're putting
Speaker 1: it on others, but it's sticking on us, you know,
Speaker 1: because we're in the same soup.
Speaker 2: And I think that idea of polarization and checking your
Speaker 2: biases against other good arguments that often happens the best
Speaker 2: interpersonally rather.
Speaker 1: Than online, one hundred times better.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people who have lived
Speaker 2: enough life have had experiences of loving someone who has
Speaker 2: completely different views to you. And we know that relationships
Speaker 2: and connection is the single most important thing for happiness
Speaker 2: and well being. And I wonder if we're kind of
Speaker 2: cutting ourselves off a little bit, we are getting further
Speaker 2: and further into these silos. One thing I did want
Speaker 2: to touch on was you have talked about religion and
Speaker 2: being kind of anti religion in terms of that polarization.
Speaker 2: Do you ever get people coming to you and saying
Speaker 2: that they feel hurt or misrepresented or anything like that
Speaker 2: because of how you talk about religion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And one of the reasons I don't do
Speaker 1: it anymore is because in a post social media world.
Speaker 1: Remember two thousand and five I broke out, which is
Speaker 1: only four years post nine to eleven, So there was
Speaker 1: a big rise in the discussion about the ways in
Speaker 1: which religion goes wrong. So religion builds a sort of
Speaker 1: gold wall around itself, says we're special. And that was
Speaker 1: what the pel song was about. It just said the
Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people were feeling, that people
Speaker 1: felt like they couldn't say because of the false gown
Speaker 1: of religiosity that he was. He's dead now, and I
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge that I feel less comfortable talking disrespectfully. Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't feel any differently. I didn't agree with nearly
Speaker 1: everything he did or said, but it wasn't his fault.
Speaker 1: He was a result of what he came from. Now
Speaker 1: that I'm more sensitive to this tribalizing thing, I don't
Speaker 1: do polemic anymore. Basically, I was a comic polemicist, and
Speaker 1: I was using that power to deconstruct a few kind
Speaker 1: of citadels in my tiny little way, and then everyone
Speaker 1: became a polemicist. Now the normal mode is just Europe
Speaker 1: and they don't even make it rhyme. They had no
Speaker 1: effort put into it. My polemics were. I thought about
Speaker 1: them very, very hard. I sharpened my tools. Again. You
Speaker 1: might not like my stuff, but you've got to admit
Speaker 1: some effort went into these polemics. Now it's just like
Speaker 1: everyone's shouting and I just very early on when okay,
Speaker 1: I'm out. It's one of the reasons I stopped doing comedy.
Speaker 1: I was a bit edgy, and now the world does
Speaker 1: not need edge. And also I wanted to go and
Speaker 1: do other stuff. I have very dear religious friends who
Speaker 1: love me, and I love them to your point. Just
Speaker 1: like some of the people who get online and publicly
Speaker 1: shame someone for saying the wrong thing have a dad
Speaker 1: who might say that sort of thing, and they love
Speaker 1: their dad. They just understand their dad came from a
Speaker 1: different generation and yet they can't extend the privilege of
Speaker 1: understanding to someone on the internet. I find it very
Speaker 1: easy to love my religious friends. And do you know
Speaker 1: how you can get your head around this? If you're religious?
Speaker 1: They love me. My religious friends love me despite the
Speaker 1: fact that I believe they're absolutely opposite to them about
Speaker 1: one of the most fundamental questions of how you interpret
Speaker 1: the universe. So if you're wondering how I can love
Speaker 1: my religious friends, just imagine how they can love me.
Speaker 1: And maybe you can't imagine either, but I find it
Speaker 1: super easier.
Speaker 2: Did your thoughts about religion, spirituality, all of that? You
Speaker 2: lost your mum at the end of last year. Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm very sorry.
Speaker 1: Well that's all right, Yeah, I lose your mom.
Speaker 2: It's very sad. Did those kinds of experiences challenge your
Speaker 2: belief that there's nothing?
Speaker 1: Oh? My god, can you imagine how this week my
Speaker 1: understanding of the universe as a as a deterministic material
Speaker 1: must imagine if like, oh, my mom died now I
Speaker 1: believe in God like that means I would have had
Speaker 1: to go forty eight years being fine with people losing
Speaker 1: kids to cancer and believing in a God, and then
Speaker 1: when my mom dies I don't believe in him anymore.
Speaker 1: Like I find that when people go, oh, I used
Speaker 1: to believe in God, then my kid got so yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, sorry, are you kidding me? Have you
Speaker 1: never thought about all those other people?
Speaker 2: Yeah? True?
Speaker 1: But when you mad agree, it just shows how differently
Speaker 1: I think about the world from people I know. I
Speaker 1: sound like I'm sneering. I just this is so far
Speaker 1: the idea that my mom dying might make me think, like,
Speaker 1: I am so far gone. I'm so far gone from
Speaker 1: that my mom. We had this amazing funeral in a
Speaker 1: chapel where we all a huge extended family, many of
Speaker 1: whom can really sing and play. We sang all these songs,
Speaker 1: including songs from that mum wanted to have Tomorrow Spring
Speaker 1: will come, which is an incantation from Groundhog Day in
Speaker 1: one of my songs, and we all sang that as
Speaker 1: the coffin like I want for nothing. The funeral of
Speaker 1: my mum wanted for nothing. There's no God anywhere to
Speaker 1: be seen. Beautiful building with nice acoustics and the gravity
Speaker 1: that comes with those buildings because of the stories that
Speaker 1: have been told in those buildings, because it's a grand
Speaker 1: story of humankind. A religious story is a story of
Speaker 1: the bigness and smallness of us. And we can tell
Speaker 1: those stories in lots of different ways, through lots of
Speaker 1: different narratives. But the idea that I'd sit there going, oh,
Speaker 1: I wish I I don't get it. You just get
Speaker 1: him here in the chair, get Jesus in the chair,
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm all in. Yeah, But I know I'd
Speaker 1: probably think I was having a breakthwn or that you've
Speaker 1: done some fancy.
Speaker 2: AI think, when you think about growing old, what do
Speaker 2: you still want in order to feel like you had
Speaker 2: lived a happy or insert what you think you're such
Speaker 2: a happy, meaningful, satisfying life.
Speaker 1: Well, it's what we're talking about. It's being at peace
Speaker 1: with being enough and being able to come down off
Speaker 1: this thing that I found myself on where my value
Speaker 1: system has been distorted by you know, once about ten
Speaker 1: thousand people stand up and clap you. It buggers you up,
Speaker 1: you know, And I work really hard to keep that
Speaker 1: where it belongs, which is in the realm of luck
Speaker 1: and privilege, not in the realm of I'm a fucking legend,
Speaker 1: And I know where my values are. I know my
Speaker 1: values are small and family oriented in community, and and yes,
Speaker 1: more abstract things like critical thinking and trying to be
Speaker 1: hard on my opinions and all those things in the book.
Speaker 1: But I am very clear that I'm so lucky. I
Speaker 1: think I'm probably going to be fine financially, health pending.
Speaker 1: I've got maybe thirty forty years twenty five if I
Speaker 1: get to my mum's age, and I want to be
Speaker 1: happy and less intense and more avuncular. I want to
Speaker 1: be like that lovely, beady guy who's really and I
Speaker 1: am generous with my time, and I really like people,
Speaker 1: and I just want more of that and less of
Speaker 1: the inner voice going quick. Do more, make them respect,
Speaker 1: you make them like you can run ten k's in
Speaker 1: under forty five five minutes. Yeah, one more time before
Speaker 1: you're too old. That engine, which has served me very
Speaker 1: very well, I need to throttle it back because I've
Speaker 1: seen people who never throttle it back, and it ain't pretty.
Speaker 2: It's sort of sort of Really, you don't want to
Speaker 2: have that at the end of your life, because.
Speaker 1: It should be going to other people. It should be
Speaker 1: fuel for other people's journey. Somehow, how do you change
Speaker 1: that so that you're offering it outwards and I'm trying.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't find it too hard. I just
Speaker 1: need to consciously do it. I need to consciously reroute
Speaker 1: the passion. So it's not about me proving myself to myself,
Speaker 1: but it's about me spreading my privilege, whether it be
Speaker 1: ideas or some funding or time or just passion behind
Speaker 1: someone or a book that gives some people advice or whatever.
Speaker 1: I want to be nice and I would like to
Speaker 1: get smoother. M you know, I would like to get
Speaker 1: round her on the edges.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like that idea of like, yeah, enoughness and
Speaker 2: how that would then kind of impact how you looked
Speaker 2: at the world and not being yeah. Like, I think
Speaker 2: I've got a bit of a streak of bitterness, and
Speaker 2: I wonder if that sense of being enough would actually
Speaker 2: ease that.
Speaker 1: I call it chippiness. Chip on my shoulder. It's not
Speaker 1: a nice I've said before. You might have heard in
Speaker 1: stuff you've listened to about one of my many unattractive
Speaker 1: attributes being a sort of righteousness.
Speaker 2: And I think we all intolerance of injustice and kind
Speaker 2: of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah is that your Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, is that definitely? And I need to get over.
Speaker 1: It some you a second child, I'm a twin.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, no, I'm sort of like the second really,
Speaker 4: the child in the and.
Speaker 1: Weird she's stole the all the nutrients.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I've got a chip exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Being at peace is what you want to aim
Speaker 1: for always. But when you're young, not being at peace
Speaker 1: keeps you moving forward, and that can be really good.
Speaker 1: You can make great work and do great things, and
Speaker 1: you can try to fight some of those injustices. You
Speaker 1: can be Matilda. You know it's Matilda who says that's
Speaker 1: not right. You've got to put it right. Well, Miss
Speaker 1: Honey says it isn't much, but it is enough for me.
Speaker 1: Miss Honey protects herself in her house with her what
Speaker 1: she calls her small but stubborn fire. I'm attractively quoting
Speaker 1: my own Lynk, but she's she's realized she just needs
Speaker 1: to defend herself. But Matilda in her youth is like, no,
Speaker 1: we're going to fix stuff, and that passion is appropriate
Speaker 1: and useful. But as you get older and we're not
Speaker 1: you're nowhere near and I'm still not very old, but
Speaker 1: at some point, looking forward, I think there's supporting other
Speaker 1: people's passion is more important.
Speaker 2: Right now, are you happy.
Speaker 1: I moved house today, into a house that we've been
Speaker 1: renovating for two years, so I'm pretty excited. But when
Speaker 1: I get there and find it's all boxes right now, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good. I've always been pretty good. Often when
Speaker 1: I'm doing press, I'm at my That's one of the
Speaker 1: problems is when i'm doing press, I'm often at my
Speaker 1: most anxious because I'm I don't like. The terrible dichotomy
Speaker 1: of this whole thing is I want people to buy
Speaker 1: my stuff, and I want them to enjoy, but I
Speaker 1: don't like seeing myself reflected. I don't like photos of myself.
Speaker 1: I don't like people talking about me in articles and
Speaker 1: doing their version of me. It's horrible. It's really confronting.
Speaker 1: I don't read any of it, but I don't know
Speaker 1: it's out there, so I always give a bit of
Speaker 1: a false report of myself. I've been very, very lucky.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a person with generally good mental health, and
Speaker 1: I've made a lot of conservative decisions to try and
Speaker 1: maintain that by having a single lifelong relationship, give or take,
Speaker 1: and not taking drugs and going running a lot. I
Speaker 1: do things to stop the high as being too high
Speaker 1: for fear of the lows being too low.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. A pleasure.
Speaker 2: Pub that's all we've got time for. On today's episode
Speaker 2: of That Are You Happy? Tim Mentionin's new book, You
Speaker 2: Don't Have to Have a Dream Advice for the Incrementally
Speaker 2: Ambitious is out now and it's a really inspiring exploration
Speaker 2: of his ideas around compassion and critical thinking and creativity.
Speaker 2: Will put a link in the show notes. This conversation
Speaker 2: challenged me intellectually, which I loved because I haven't been
Speaker 2: able to stop thinking about some of the things we
Speaker 2: talked about. Tim has fascinating insights into what it's like
Speaker 2: to be the focus of media stories that are designed
Speaker 2: to polarize us and make us angry, and how that
Speaker 2: feels on a personal level, and the innate frustration that
Speaker 2: comes with feeling like you're being misrepresented.
Speaker 1: I thought it was.
Speaker 2: Actually quite powerful that we explored that in real time.
Speaker 2: When I asked him a question that was the result
Speaker 2: of a misrepresentation of something Tim had said, and I'm
Speaker 2: glad that he called me out on it, and it
Speaker 2: reminded me that even as somebody who works in media
Speaker 2: it is so easy to just see a headline, to
Speaker 2: just see the top line of a story and think
Speaker 2: you've got the gist of it. And there's a human
Speaker 2: and a human's complex ideas that are being flattened by
Speaker 2: the way we consume media today. I hope this chat
Speaker 2: was food for thought about how we use social media
Speaker 2: and the phenomenon of public shaming. It's a topic I'm
Speaker 2: really interested in from a mental health perspective, and I
Speaker 2: was so glad that Tim was willing to talk about
Speaker 2: it candidly. If you like this episode, please share it,
Speaker 2: rate and review it, DM me tell me what you
Speaker 2: thought of it. I'm always so interested to hear from
Speaker 2: our listeners about what they got from particular episodes, And
Speaker 2: if you ever have a guest suggestion, you can always
Speaker 2: come and send me a message. I love to hear them.
Speaker 2: The executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Nama Brown,
Speaker 2: and the producer is Tylie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik.
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Claire Stevens, and we'll see you next week.