1 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:21,439 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Because I'm doing all this press. Someone said, one of 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: the radio DJs went, how do you You obviously just don't 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: give a shit about what people think, and I'm like, oh, hello, 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: I have full blown, like shaking, sweating, week long not 8 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: being able to sleep or eat breakdowns that my poor 9 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: freaking wife's like, you shouldn't have said something. 10 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast 11 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from 12 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: the people who appear to have it all. I'm Klas Stevens, 13 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: and today's guest is Tim Mitchin. He's an award winning composer, 14 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: a songwriter, an actor, a writer, a musician, a poet, 15 00:01:12,039 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 2: a comedian. He has so many things it is exhausting 16 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: just thinking about it. You might know him as the 17 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 2: composer and lyricist of Matilda, the musical, which won an 18 00:01:23,479 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: Olivier Award, a Tony Award, and was nominated for a Grammy. 19 00:01:45,679 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: Or you might also know him as the writer and 20 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 2: performer of iconic songs like White Wine, in the sun, not. 21 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: Expecting big presence. The old combination of socks jockson chocolates 22 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: is just fine by me, Ka, my brother and sisters, 23 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 3: my gran and my mom. They'll be drinking wild wine. 24 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: And the ort from one of the viral commencement addresses 25 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: He's done where he eloquently expresses his thoughts on art 26 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: and life and success and kindness and thriving. There were 27 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: parts during this chat with Tim where I was nervous, 28 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: and I realized it was because it's quite rare to 29 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: come across someone who is entirely forthright around their ideas 30 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: and his forthright because he genuinely wants to discuss them 31 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: and he's willing to have them challenged. And it reminded 32 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: me that we really do self censor, and that means 33 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: that sometimes we don't have the important conversations that we 34 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: should be. This interview really stuck with me, and it 35 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: really challenged me because I think we explored some fascinating 36 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: ideas around shame and having a public profile, and Tim 37 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: discussed what it's like to seriously contend with whether you 38 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: should speak your mind when there can be a cost 39 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: associated with that and when you can be misrepresented and 40 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: you know how frustrating that feels. I feel like this 41 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: conversation was a journey and I really got to a 42 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: part of Tim that hadn't been explored before I started 43 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: this conversation the way I start all my chats on. 44 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: But are you happy with asking Tim about his childhood? 45 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: His Tim? 46 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: No, I don't think we grew up in a happy 47 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: fam all right. So the long answer is, I think 48 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: we grew up in a family that's as happy as 49 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: one should reasonably expect, given that when you're one of 50 00:04:16,719 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: four kids' life's complicated and tough for the primary care 51 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: and in the case of old fashion relationships where the 52 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: mum was the primary carer like ours, and dad was 53 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: the worker and he was a surgeon and he was 54 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: very dedicated to his work. And without a doubt, I 55 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: think we had a happy family and we are very 56 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: very close, remained very very close. But it was not 57 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: happiness wasn't the goal. Happiness is It's a side. 58 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: Effect, right, What do you think was the central ethos 59 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: of your family when you're growing up? 60 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: I think the family was the central ethos, so that 61 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: one owes one's family loyalty and dedication and work, and 62 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: it was just sort of expected that the team was 63 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: the priority, and the team was the family, and that 64 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: extended to a lot of close first cousins and stuff. 65 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: And it wasn't didactic, It wasn't explained to particularly. That 66 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: was just the underlying truth was that you owe your siblings. 67 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: We weren't all happy clappy. We had our arguments and stuff, 68 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: but we weren't really allowed to argue. We certainly weren't 69 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: allowed to say we hate each other or anything. And 70 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: there was a sense that we owed each other loyalty 71 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: and entertainment and help. And my younger sisters quite a 72 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: lot younger than the other ones, and when she came along, 73 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: even in nineteen twenty, when I was still living at home, 74 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: I sort of had a curfew, and the curfew was 75 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: mostly based around, well, your sisters still in her early teens, 76 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: and she might need a lift to hockey tomorrow, and 77 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: you owe the family work. So the family itself was 78 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: the family's ethos. 79 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: Do you remember having like early challenges to happiness, like 80 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: when you were a kid, like in primary school. Did 81 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: you feel like you could be just a carefree child 82 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 2: in that innocent way, or did you have any neuroticism 83 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: that sort of peaked its head. 84 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: At no point in my life have I felt that 85 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: being simply happy was the dominant. It's always complicated. I mean, 86 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: I've grown up into not a neurotic person, but an 87 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: incredibly probably dysfunctionally met a cognitive person, like I have 88 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: thoughts about my thoughts, and then I have thoughts about 89 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: those thoughts I've had about my thoughts. I think it's 90 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: good and humans should have more thoughts about their thoughts, 91 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: checking on themselves more. But it can be tiring. As 92 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: a kid, I had bad hearing, and I was sort 93 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: of deaf a lot of the time. And I was 94 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: a chubby kid, and I was asthmatic, and I went 95 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: to hospital a few times with allergic stuff, and so 96 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: I was like a bit of a mess. I grow 97 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: out of it all quite quickly, and by certainly by 98 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: my teens, I had grown out of all of that stuff. 99 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: But I think my early memories of school and stuff 100 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: were not happy. I felt and sad and like an outsider. 101 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: But I don't think it was uncommon. I think that's 102 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: what childhood is. You don't quite understand why you're in 103 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: this classroom, and you don't understand why the teachers looks 104 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: cross with you, and you don't understand why your mom's 105 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: dropped you off and booted you out of a car, 106 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: And those are my earliest memories. I think that memories. 107 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: My mum would tell the story of dropping me off 108 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: at school that first day, and so maybe I'm remembering 109 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: them through her eyes. 110 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: You have just released a book called You Don't Have 111 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 2: to Have a Dream, and it's based on these speeches 112 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: you've given at universities, viral speeches people will have seen 113 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: at least clips of them. And in one that you 114 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: gave at Woppa where you went, you have a bit 115 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: of advice where you say comparing yourself to others in 116 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: any area of your life is poison It sounds like 117 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: maybe you had a little bit of that as a kid, 118 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: seeing yourself as a bit of an outsider, and then 119 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: you saying your speech that you had it while you 120 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: were at Whoppa. What was kind of the raw reality 121 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: of jealousy at that stage, What did it feel like 122 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: and how did it manifest? 123 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: I think I still have it. I think the flip 124 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: side of it being poisoned is it can be very motivating. 125 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: I think it is poison to happiness but again, happiness 126 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: is not the only game in town. It's not the 127 00:08:33,199 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: only currency. In fact, it's quite a hard one. I 128 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: find it hard to even grab onto. I sort of 129 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: think satisfaction or achievement or I don't know, there's lots 130 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: of we can unpack happiness, I guess. But I'm quite competitive. 131 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't get to do what I've done 132 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: if you're not. There's not a bit of an engine 133 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: underneath it. And jealousy doesn't sound quite right, and competitive 134 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: doesn't even feel quite right. I'm very self competitive. I'm 135 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: quite hard on myself, probably very hard on myself. But 136 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: again that doesn't feel hugely dysfunctional. When I was very young, 137 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: I don't remember thinking Shah was that person. 138 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 2: How about at whop up you talk about doing the 139 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: music stuff and looking at the actors who were all 140 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: I think you say something about how they were like 141 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: sweating beautifully. Was there like a resentment there? And in 142 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: your early career where you were in a band and 143 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: kind of doing stuff that was more supporting other people, 144 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: did you have resentment towards people. 145 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: Who didn't feel like that resentment? Definitely, jealousy is closer 146 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: than resentment envy, but It was because I felt like 147 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: I had something and I knew it wasn't what other 148 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: people had, and it wasn't a very strong feeling. It 149 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: wasn't like I'm talented and I'm not being recognized. It 150 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: was more like, I think I'm talented and I don't 151 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: know talented? Was that and that we can unpack that 152 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: word as well. But I've got this group of things. 153 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: You know, I'm quite funny, I'm good lyrics, and I 154 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: play music, and I can act. And yet I can't 155 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: see anyone modeling for me where a person like me 156 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: might fit, you know, quirky and not sort of you know, 157 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: chiseled and taald ark and handsome and largely self taught 158 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: in the way I played music, strange musical inputs. I 159 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: just wondered. I just thought, do you know what? It's more, 160 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: I thought, there are people out there with less talent 161 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: than me doing very well, and that feels a bit unfair. 162 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: I felt a bit chippy about why should they get 163 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: to do this stuff? They can't do half the stuff 164 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: I can do, you know, And that drove me to 165 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: get even better at what I did, which in the 166 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: end meant that I get to have one of those 167 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: careers that people would justifiably be envious of it because 168 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: I've been so lucky in the end, but I was 169 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: so called unlucky. I was frustrated for long enough that 170 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: I had time to get some chops, to get some 171 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: stuff under my belt. So by the time my moment came, 172 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: I had some actual skills, not just a TikTok vid. 173 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And so now that you have this career 174 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: where your multi award winning, you've been critically acclaimed, you're 175 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: just by all measures, doing very body. Well, who are 176 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: you jealous of? 177 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: Now? My brain pings old jealousy pathways. Yep, when I 178 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: just see the same pathways we all have where someone 179 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: seems to briefly just you know, especially like I don't know, 180 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: movie stars and stuff, I just think they've got so 181 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: much attention. But it's that is followed within a microsecond 182 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: by my knowledge that that's nonsense. And to be honest, 183 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 1: it doesn't ever feel like jealousy. The competitive thing is 184 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: a better description. I just think, Oh I could do that. 185 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: That's how I'm wired, right. I could go see a 186 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: figure skater and go like, oh, maybe I could figure skater, 187 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, I just you know, Certainly, when someone writes 188 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: a book, I think, oh, I want to write a 189 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: novel or someone. You know, if I go see oblique 190 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: classical contemporary classical song cycle, you know, something almost within 191 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: my reach, but outside it, I will feel like, oh 192 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: I should, I should do whatever it takes to be 193 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: able to do that, even though it's never been something 194 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: I've ever considered in my life. You know, Certainly, if 195 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: I go see musicals that are very successful that aren't 196 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: my own, I think, oh God, what do I need 197 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: to do to sort of push out into that area 198 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: a bit? And I'm very good at checking those thoughts 199 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: now because a lot of them are just as I say, 200 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: old pathways. What about you? Do you feel I really 201 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: want to know? 202 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: The reason I'm asking you about it is because what 203 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 2: you've said before it really resonates. And you've said before 204 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: that you feel like you're trying to prove them wrong, 205 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 2: but you don't know who they are anymore, but you're 206 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 2: still trying. 207 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: That's a better Yeah, old me, got it closer, got 208 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: it better, because that's what it is. It's like proving 209 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: to myself that they is probably me. And it probably 210 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: does come from you know, I did have my mum 211 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: was which she was brought up in a way that 212 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: you don't don't fluff up your own kids. You know, 213 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: you don't blow your trumpet all the trumpet of your family, 214 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: and so I definitely didn't get a lot of compliments, 215 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: you know, But she was so full of love. I mean, 216 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: it was such. It was a wild, protective, furious, high 217 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: expectation sort of love, not a your special So we 218 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: could freudianly unpack why but I once that motor is 219 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: there that I need to prove myself, I'll show them. 220 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: You know, you can reject me, but I'm going to 221 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: persevere and I will rise up in the face of 222 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: all these closed doors. Once all those doors are open, 223 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: the wiring's still there. So I have to work on 224 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: it now. I have to work on like dude, you know, 225 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: leave some cake. You know, it's fine, You're doing fine. 226 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: Just make nice work now and ideally be generous with 227 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: your time and your resources to help other people make 228 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: good work. And that brings me great satisfaction. But it's 229 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: something that I have to choose to do intuitively. I'm 230 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: like ice skating. I'm going to skating at all. I'm 231 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: going to be a rally car driver. I'm going to 232 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: write a tone poem. I'm gonna learn to surf. You know, 233 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: it's just the engines there, and the fuel to that 234 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: engine is probably insecurity or a lack of lack of self. 235 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: The fuel is a sense of I'm not enough. Yeah, 236 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: and we can unpack that as well. But again, I'm 237 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: not like, I'm not going to cry telling you this. 238 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: It's just like I can identify that and some days 239 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: it sucks. Some days it's heavy feeling like really gross, 240 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm going to cry. Really, I really don't. 241 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: Like what I say. You know, I think what you 242 00:14:54,560 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: say is fascinating because we as a culture, we look 243 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: at people like you, and we look at people who 244 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: have achieved enormous things and we're just in awe and 245 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: we think they must be so happy they have everything. 246 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: But do you think sometimes the thing driving that level 247 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: of ambition is something that's that can be really painful. 248 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: Yes, that's the engine that got you there is still 249 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: the engine that drives you, the brain that made you 250 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: do all those hours, and not that it was ever 251 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: work for me. I just love it. But you know, 252 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to show people. I wanted to show off 253 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: most performers, it's a show off thing. And then once 254 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: you get an audience or chasing being good enough for them. 255 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: That's another sort of tendril to this conversation is once 256 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: you get an audience and you are playing a nine 257 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: thousand seater with a symphony orchestra, then of course we 258 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: call it imposter syndrome. I'm not very interested in that 259 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: phrase because it feels a bit like something everyone hasn't. 260 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: And it feels imposter syndrome to me always feels a 261 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: bit like a humble brag, like how did I get here? 262 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: I'm so successful and I feel like I shouldn't be. 263 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: But and I don't think that's what people mean. 264 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's how it feels to me. 265 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: I agree. And also like you're one of the lucky ones, Champ. 266 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: We can talk about your imposter syndrome, or you can 267 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: get on with using your stage or using your mic, 268 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: or using your privilege. But definitely, Oh, there's all these 269 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: people paying money that they saved up for tickets, and 270 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: they've caught their trains and their buses and their planes 271 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: to see me. As recently as the beginning of my 272 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: US tour starting in Vancouver, just six weeks ago, I 273 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: was like in a bookshop looking for contemporary women's fiction 274 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: to come my brain and just burst into tears because 275 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: I had a show that night, and I didn't burst 276 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: into tears, but I felt that because I just if 277 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: there's been a bit of a gap since I last performed. 278 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: I just don't quite believe that person who can do 279 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: that job is inside me until about half an hour 280 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: before I go on, and it's just like, oh, that's fine, 281 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,719 Speaker 1: I'm great, I'm fine, this is gonna be a hoot 282 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: at lunchtime. No way. Man. 283 00:17:07,919 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: Whereas when you see somebody on stage, you just think 284 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 2: that they're having the time of their life because usually they. 285 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: Are like and you are in the moment, I'm so 286 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: happy on stage. Yeah, it's but the week leading up 287 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: to my first gig of a tour. I mean, I'm 288 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: not a messy cat, Like it doesn't come out like 289 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: I'm not shouting or throwing my toys out of the 290 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: pram or taking drugs or having affairs or any of 291 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: those outward behaviors. But it's a big old battle. Yeah, 292 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: and imposter syndrome. I understand why that phrase has become popular, 293 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: but it's just it's just fear that you're not enough, 294 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: and it doesn't go away. So back to your last 295 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: sort of question, Yes, that the engine that makes you 296 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: need to show off and express yourself and put yourself 297 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: out in the world doesn't fade when you success doesn't 298 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: solve whatever that is. But also, and this is trite 299 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: as hell, but I'll just keep saying it. It's all 300 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: through my musical groundhog Day that unfortunately the things we 301 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: think we need, and I've been toalking about on stage 302 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: all through America, I talk about the arrival fallacy. We 303 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: think we need a list of things to make us 304 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: feel better about the world, and we just don't. And 305 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: it's impossible for me to say and be taken seriously 306 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: because I've got everything I want, but through my observation 307 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: and through the experience of getting not just everything I want, 308 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: but way beyond my wildest dreams, and I even mean 309 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: my happy marriage and my beautiful kids, and my lovely 310 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: house that I'm moving into today, and all the different 311 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: areas I've been allowed to work in, and the admiration. 312 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: If that's what it is of many people, it's not 313 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: the thing. It's not the thing that is not what 314 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: happiness comes from wealth, certainly not and everyone says that, 315 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: but again easy for me to say, obviously, if you're 316 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: struggling to pay bills and you've got kids, and we 317 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: can talk about poverty and trauma and suffering, but just 318 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: for now saying, we're talking about people who are okay, 319 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm afraid to say, reporting from the other side, all 320 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: my dreams coming true. I'm afraid to say, I'm about 321 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: as happy as I was when I was playing keyboards 322 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: in a cover band at the Elephant wheelbarrowns and killed up. 323 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: In fact, I might have been happier because I was 324 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: younger and had less responsibilities and hadn't not sort of 325 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: suffered the slings and arrows of being a public figure 326 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: and all that stuff that turns you into a bit 327 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: of an anxious mess. You wouldn't know it listening to 328 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: me and bang on. But all that said, the thing 329 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: I've got to do, I mean, I just love my job, 330 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: and I just there is no career I would rather 331 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: have than this one that I've got, Like this various 332 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: It's hard and good and I'm very, very very lucky. 333 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 2: I think that what you just said is kind of 334 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: at the core of why I started this podcast, and 335 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: sometimes it does get a little bit eye rollie that 336 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 2: the idea is interviewing the people who appear to have 337 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: it all and going behind that and saying exactly what 338 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: you just said, that those things that we value are 339 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: not the things that bring meaning, happiness, satisfaction to a life. 340 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 2: It comes from the intangible things, not from external achievement. 341 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: After the break, Tim tells us about the time he 342 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: should have been happy celebrating one of his biggest career achievements, 343 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: but he wasn't. I ask every guest on this show 344 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: about a specific time the world told them they'd be 345 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: happy or they expected to be happy, and they weren't. 346 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: Do you have a moment in your life where it 347 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: sticks out that you're like, oh, that should have been 348 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: the arrival and it didn't feel how I. 349 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: Thought it would. I mean that that's my life. I 350 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: mean I have I'll tell you what. There was a 351 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: night where I stood on the stage at the Royal 352 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: Opera House in London, in Covent Garden and Matilda the 353 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: musical one the most awards that have ever been one, 354 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: and I was with my friends and actually the awards 355 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: were a thrill and that was fine and the photos 356 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: after are weird. And then I got shunted into the 357 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: after party and that was It's always. So here's a 358 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: tiny one for people who think they want to they 359 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: want to career like this one, it's just always. You 360 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: just want to be with your co creatives, you want 361 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,959 Speaker 1: to be with your family, and you are just you 362 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: don't get to talk to anyone. It's like this panic 363 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: attack of people approaching you and being nice, which is amazing, 364 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: and I'm fine with it because I'm an extroverted person 365 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: and I like people and I have no boundaries and 366 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: I'll take all the hugs. But it's like you eventually 367 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: realize that this party is not for you, it's for them. 368 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: You've been put into that room so that that party 369 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: is cool because the award winners are there, and you're 370 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: just you're the meat. You're the you're the party favor, 371 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: you're the entertainment. You're not the guest. Yeah, and that happens. 372 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: I forget that again every opening night. Please. This is 373 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: not a whine. I'm just clarifying what that's like. But 374 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: after that night, Sarah and I walked home from the 375 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: Royal Opera House to the hotel. We're staying on seven dials, 376 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: which is where the Matilda musical remains to this day. 377 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: And I was very, very happy that night because I 378 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: was with Sarah and I think it was about to 379 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: start to snow. I tell you that story because there's 380 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: been very few. It is not in my nature or 381 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: my upbringing to do very well at rejoicing in those 382 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: big moments, and there's been many. My brain goes, don't 383 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: get too big for your boots. What are you going 384 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: to do next? You know, the race is still being run, 385 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: It's going to get harder, and all that stuff that 386 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: comes from how I was brought up, which is probably 387 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: okay and functional and keeps my feet on the ground 388 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: and a cap on my head and keeps a ceiling 389 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: in a place where I don't get ahead of myself. 390 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think it is something I am working on. 391 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: And I'm not a person who's ever been to therapy 392 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: or anything, but after this, everybody liked I'm working on 393 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: the Groundhog Day lessons that happiness is available to you 394 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: every day, and I'm working on letting myself enjoy my privileges. 395 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: Because of my politics and where I've come from, I 396 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 1: have spent my adult life going here. Just lucky, mate, 397 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: You're not special. 398 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 2: Well, I was going to ask about that because a 399 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 2: lot of people would argue that the huge rise in 400 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 2: mental health issues and the crisis of meaning people are 401 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: experiencing at the moment, it's like something is going wrong 402 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: culturally in how we're living our lives. I know that's profound. 403 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: But I think the answer is simple. It's just smartphones. 404 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: But anyway, Yeah, well, I. 405 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 2: Was going to ask, what's your theory on what is 406 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: causing those issues? And I think it's also interesting with 407 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: men specifically, what is causing or those issues? Talk to 408 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: me about the smartphone? 409 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: Well, okay, so, I mean, I'm very happy to have 410 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: a chat. The risk is this becomes my opinion and 411 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: it's sort of written in stone, but prefacing it with 412 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: this is just a chat, and I've got a million thoughts. 413 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: I think the big spike in mental health issues for 414 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: young people correlates or aligns completely with smartphones. And I 415 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: think smartphones are terrible for us. I don't think we're 416 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: meant to see that much news. We're not meant to 417 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: inherit all the people's trauma all the time. I mean, 418 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do about that because you 419 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't put your head in the sand. But if all 420 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: the world's trauma all the time, if you've got five newsfeeds. 421 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: I did a podcast recently where I reflected on some stuff, 422 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: and the article that came out told one side of 423 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: the story and not the other. And it's just completely 424 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: the opposite of how I talk and think. I am 425 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: always like, well, on this side this and on that 426 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 1: side that. That's that's what my book's about. It's my 427 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: life's work trying to. 428 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: Have nuance and critical thinking. 429 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: Right. My last work is fun songs, but my internal world. 430 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: And I reflected on that and just went, God, if 431 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: even me a comedian with nothing to say, particularly I'm 432 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: not news, But if every time I speak, the most 433 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: outrageous thing I say is taken out of context and 434 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: turned to headline with a hyperbolic word, that it does 435 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: not reflect my tone. Mintion slams or mention regrets or 436 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: mention opens up about hard times with you know whatever, 437 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: it's just like crazy, not I mean, you're listening to 438 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: me now, It's just not I don't it's not how 439 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: I talk, and it's not how I be. And then 440 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: you think about that filter being applied to hundreds of 441 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: thousand times a day on every tiny issue from a 442 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: dumbass composer comedian talking about ideas to you know, the 443 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: black and white thinking that is. So the news takes 444 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: reality nuanced complex, always turns it into something simple. Then 445 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: then the sub editors turn it into a more simple headline, 446 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: plus exploding the drama of it. And then people online 447 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: take that headline and pile hate on it. And this 448 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: happens hundreds of thousands of times a day, and we're 449 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: consuming it and we're not choosing to consume it. Men 450 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: have got a different thing. There's something very very serious 451 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: and big going on that I shouldn't speak to because 452 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: the conversation has to come from women. But it's all 453 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: populations need pride. Women had pride taken from them when 454 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: they were made subservient and told they weren't good enough 455 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: to do proper jobs and all that. And we've learned 456 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: again and again that you can't take from culture's pride, 457 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: and great ancient cultures that survived for millennia always had 458 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: a place for pride in women's business and men's business, 459 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 1: or for young people coming through adeless and says pride. 460 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: There's goals, and you're allowed to be proud of who 461 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: you are. And we just need to make sure that 462 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: in trying to correct for the history of the patriarchy 463 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: and white supremacy and all these things, that we don't 464 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: take a population of dufuss blokes and tell them that 465 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: none of the things that culture has told them they 466 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: should be proud of their strength, their military service, nationalism, religion, humor, toughness, 467 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: blokiness is sexual prowess and sexual conquering and all those myths. 468 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: We can't deconstruct them without saying, there's this and this 469 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: is why boys go to these fuck wits. 470 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's sort of the implication is that there's 471 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: intrinsic shame in being a man. 472 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: And I feel it. And I'm an unbelievably privileged, quite 473 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: well educated, you know, wealthy, powerful dude and I am 474 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: you know, I studied feminist literature in nineties, so I'm 475 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: thirty years in to receiving this rhetoric straight white guys 476 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: ruin the world, and I feel it. Imagine if I 477 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: didn't have a job. 478 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 2: And speaking of shame, I think you said there that 479 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 2: those two issues were kind of different things. That what's 480 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: happening that the smartphone thing and the men and pride 481 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: and shame sort of two different things. But I think 482 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 2: we're intersex. 483 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes absolutely converged is. 484 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 2: Shame online And I've been thinking a lot lately about 485 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: as you say, the news gets condensed into things that 486 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 2: make us feel we click on things that make us 487 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: feel things angry, yep, so and so we are just 488 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: it's like anger, anger, anger, It's like absolutely looking at 489 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 2: the saddest, scariest things you can possibly look at that 490 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: trigger an emotional reaction. And then I think the problem 491 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 2: is you're scrolling through a newsfeed and you see war, 492 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: and you see arise in interest rates, and you see 493 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: all these things that are a threat to you, and 494 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: then you see someone who annoys you, and you can't 495 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: respond rationally to the person who annoys you because it's 496 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: in the context of all these horrible, scary things and 497 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: so and so you're crimed. 498 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: Your fight and flight is already are ye. Yeah, it 499 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: is like you're ready for a fight and you can't 500 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: fight the news, but you can fight Oh mate, dickhead, 501 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: who's exactly the wrong word about the wrong thing. 502 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: Why do you think internet pylons feel so easy? Do 503 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: you think people see an opinion online that they don't 504 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: agree with and they're just desperate to tell someone that 505 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: they're wrong. Because I think you can't stop the absolute 506 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: scary beast that you're scared of and that you're looking at, 507 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: But you can pile on that individual who said a 508 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 2: bit of a stupid thing that wasn't acknowledging all the 509 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: context that was going on at that particular. 510 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: That everyone in the world online has to have the 511 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: same set of information that you have. I have intention 512 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: when I'm online, I'm just telling people I have the 513 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,479 Speaker 1: right opinions. I'm telling my own tribe that I have 514 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: the right opinions about X, Y or Z, about this 515 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: hot spot cultural moment. And when you shout at someone 516 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: who has the wrong opinions, according to you, you are 517 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: giving up on doing anything good in the world. You're 518 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: just going I'm going to show my friends that I've 519 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: got the right opinions, and I'm going to do exactly 520 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: what you said. I'm going to get rid of some 521 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: of this fight or flight juice that's running around my body. 522 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: And what we know is that you have lost that person. 523 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: They will never again listen to you or anyone like you, 524 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: because when they said that genuinely, that all lives matter, 525 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: you called them a racist and you have lost them forever. 526 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: There's tens of thousands of people saying this, why is 527 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: it my fault? Well, same reason. If you don't put 528 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: your recycling out, we don't get recycling done. 529 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: You know, after the break? Does Tim Mention actually have 530 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 2: regrets about sharing some of his public opinions. You've said 531 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: recently that you regret your song about Cardinal Pell. 532 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: I mean with all you was that, dude, I think 533 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: you're a scarm. I absolutely did not say that. Oh really, 534 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: that is why this is nonsense. Oh my god. The 535 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: interesting thing about that is that article is written from 536 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: a podcast, and you can hear the podcast. That was 537 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: what I was referring to earlier. When I was talking 538 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: about the headline. I said, I can take two looks 539 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: at the Pell moment because I'm a big grown up person. 540 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: To celebrate what I did. There's all these things, all 541 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: the money I raised sent people to the Vatican to 542 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: face him when he refused to come back, all that 543 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: that extra money that was raised from that song that 544 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: helped support and abuse Crisis Center in Balorat for some 545 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: years afterwards, all the hundreds of communications I had from 546 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: survivors saying what that meant to them, Stories of people 547 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: driving their cars and with their elderly dad and suddenly 548 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: realizing he's laughing and then crying and then disclose something 549 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: that had never come out, that had haunted like amazing stuff. 550 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: And I don't tell those stories because even as I 551 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: say it, I'm cringing because it's self serving to tell 552 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: those stories. And I said, but if I wanted to 553 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: steal man the other the other position, these are the 554 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: things that I would go. Yet that's a big thing. 555 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: Is just absolutely not the case that I said. I 556 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: regret the Cardinal pel song and the fact that someone 557 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: put that in the world is so close to a lie. Yeah, yeah, 558 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: that you just I mean, I don't know what to 559 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: do about that. I was just saying to a publicist 560 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: in the lift, I'm going to not stop. I hate 561 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: being misread presented. You can imagine the way I talk 562 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: how much it kills me because I try so hard 563 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: to be articulate and thoughtful. To have my words turned 564 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: into someone's clickbait. I hate it, And yet I want 565 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: to sell my book. I want to sell these ideas 566 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: that are in my book, that we should think critically 567 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: about our own ideas and put ourselves in the other 568 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: people's position, walk in other people's shoes all the time, 569 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: even when it hurts. Everyone must keep having nuanced conversations 570 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: and just let the clickbait. And by the way, that 571 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: was a fine article. It's just sad for me. That 572 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: was a fine article written by an excellent person. You know, 573 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: I didn't read it because I knew it would upset me. 574 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 2: I think it is a big thing, and it's interesting 575 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: that me is somebody who works in media, and it's 576 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: so acutely aware of that that I thought it and 577 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 2: you're talking about I listened to the original interview, like 578 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 2: I listened to that, and then I must have seen 579 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 2: that headline and it conflated those those things. I mean, 580 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember in the podcast. 581 00:34:13,799 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: I took two points if you wanted the recency effect 582 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: and the headline. Maybe the headline. 583 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 2: It's the recency and it's the it's the fact I 584 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 2: think that we're absorbing so much information that you then 585 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: highlight simplify it. 586 00:34:28,799 --> 00:34:31,439 Speaker 1: And of course we do have to. 587 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,159 Speaker 2: And I think that's something interesting. The idea of being 588 00:34:35,839 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 2: misrepresented because I imagine that as a public figure, a 589 00:34:41,479 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 2: huge challenge to happiness is either the fear of being 590 00:34:47,479 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: misrepresented or the reality of being misrepresented. And I'm really 591 00:34:52,479 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 2: interested in the question of do you think a really 592 00:34:56,759 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 2: evolved version of a human being can be fine with 593 00:35:01,839 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 2: being totally misrepresented with you can say whatever you like. 594 00:35:04,839 --> 00:35:08,519 Speaker 1: That if you can meet with triumph and disaster and 595 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: treat those two imposts the same, I mean, or. 596 00:35:12,279 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 2: Do you think it just goes against the es I 597 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 2: find it. 598 00:35:15,359 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 4: No. 599 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: I think I'm more sensitive to it than some you know, 600 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,639 Speaker 1: someone asked me because I'm doing all this press, someone said, 601 00:35:21,959 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: one of the radio DJs went, how do you You obviously 602 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: just don't give a shit about what people think? And 603 00:35:27,279 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, bro, I have full blown, like shaking, 604 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,559 Speaker 1: sweating week long, not being able to sleep or eat 605 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: breakdowns that My poor freaking wife's like, you shouldn't have 606 00:35:42,839 --> 00:35:47,999 Speaker 1: said something. And I think there's some people who don't care, 607 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: like Josh Zepp's. He definitely cares, but he's just he 608 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: just believes in the in his mission. You know, yeah, 609 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: I care a lot. I got into this game because 610 00:36:00,399 --> 00:36:02,039 Speaker 1: I want people to like me, you know, like that's 611 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: the thing. I really want to make work and I 612 00:36:04,839 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: want people to like my work, and i want people 613 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,519 Speaker 1: to respect me. So I've got a big need for respect. Right, 614 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: that's just a put a finger on the thing. I'm 615 00:36:12,439 --> 00:36:15,519 Speaker 1: searching for the hole in me that I'm the bottomless pit. 616 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 1: I'm trying to feel this. I want to be respected. 617 00:36:17,879 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: I guess I think we all have it, but maybe 618 00:36:20,399 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: I've got a big case of it. On the other side, 619 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: I really care about ideas, and I actually think in 620 00:36:28,839 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: Australia now I'm almost forty nine, I've got a reasonable 621 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,959 Speaker 1: profile and I'm an artist who has a reputation for 622 00:36:38,479 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: trying to unpack ideas. And then I've got this other 623 00:36:41,759 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: bit of me that's like I'm an idiot, Like who cares? 624 00:36:44,439 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: Like I'm just a boofheaded? What did Andrew Bolt call me? 625 00:36:48,799 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: Putting face full? The world doesn't need me, you know. 626 00:36:53,319 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: I wrote Matilda, just sit in your nice house and 627 00:36:57,279 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: just shut up. And I don't know which one to 628 00:37:02,439 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: listen to, because part of me thinks if I can't 629 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: talk about nuanced interpretation of ideas, about where the progressive 630 00:37:09,799 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: left is going wrong and how self defeating we can be, 631 00:37:12,359 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: and about social media or about whatever, then no one's 632 00:37:16,919 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: going to And there's been a couple occasions I'm in 633 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: the pel things, nothing compared to one I had last 634 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: year that I don't want to relitigate, where I got 635 00:37:23,279 --> 00:37:26,079 Speaker 1: taken out of context and piled on about a really 636 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,439 Speaker 1: hot topic. Everyone sees that happen to someone like me, 637 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: and they all just go want me, well, you know, 638 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: thank god, I'm the idiot. I'm the big mouth idiot. 639 00:37:36,839 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: But I think it's my job. But maybe writing children's 640 00:37:40,879 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: musicals is my job, you know, So I get really 641 00:37:43,919 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: caught up in this stuff. I would really like to 642 00:37:46,399 --> 00:37:49,039 Speaker 1: be able to shut up, but I just don't think 643 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: I have it in me, and I don't think that's 644 00:37:51,879 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: I don't think we should. I think we should keep 645 00:37:53,759 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 1: having chats. 646 00:37:55,799 --> 00:38:00,999 Speaker 2: There are people who have been obliterated reputation wise for 647 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 2: things that you know, some people might be like, fairly 648 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 2: or unfairly reputation obliterated. And I look at it and think, 649 00:38:10,319 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 2: can you lead a happy life if your external public 650 00:38:15,479 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 2: reputation doesn't match who you feel you are on the inside. 651 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,879 Speaker 2: I wish, and I think maybe it does make me 652 00:38:24,919 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 2: want it to stop. 653 00:38:26,279 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 1: Just the thought of all this conversation makes me just go, 654 00:38:29,359 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: why am I even talking about microphone? 655 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 2: But that's such a shame. And I think the other 656 00:38:34,399 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 2: thing people don't see is that when the public shaming happens, 657 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:43,079 Speaker 2: when the pylon happens, obviously there's all the dehumanization that happens. Yes, 658 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,639 Speaker 2: but they think they're talking to this person who thinks 659 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 2: they're fucking amazing and has no insecurity. 660 00:38:48,439 --> 00:38:51,439 Speaker 1: And it's like question, Yeah, from the outside, I look 661 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: like I've got it all, so nothing could hurt my 662 00:38:54,439 --> 00:38:55,079 Speaker 1: sense of self. 663 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,999 Speaker 2: Yeah, but inside you're like, oh, no, no, no, I 664 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 2: already hate myself. You don't need to say it. Like 665 00:39:01,439 --> 00:39:05,079 Speaker 2: everything you're saying about me, I've told myself. And I 666 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 2: think that that kind of like role playing of shame 667 00:39:10,319 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 2: online then creates an internal narrative of shame in everyone. Ye, 668 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 2: Like I don't know, I walk around and feel shame 669 00:39:19,879 --> 00:39:23,559 Speaker 2: for certain things or feel a certain way and then think, no, 670 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,039 Speaker 2: I shouldn't feel like that, and then feel shame about that. 671 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,959 Speaker 2: And it's like, is that because we're just surrounded by shame? 672 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really really good unpacking. I must admit. 673 00:39:32,759 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 1: When I see people pylon, I'm like, guys, ten years ago, 674 00:39:37,439 --> 00:39:41,039 Speaker 1: we didn't quite get it. Like, still you're still doing it, 675 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: you still think this is cool? Yeah, And I think 676 00:39:44,399 --> 00:39:47,839 Speaker 1: it's mostly probably people under twenty five. Do you think? 677 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm of the opinion now that it's 678 00:39:50,879 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 2: that it's it's us some older people who well, I 679 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,479 Speaker 2: think it's us, But I think also some older people 680 00:39:57,479 --> 00:40:00,559 Speaker 2: who don't fully understand the internet, right, and so don't 681 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 2: understand that everyone's seeing it. 682 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:02,999 Speaker 3: I don't know. 683 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 2: Every now and then you say something and you go, oh, 684 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 2: you did not understand that that was But no, I 685 00:40:07,279 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 2: think people my and a little bit older at the West. 686 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I'm older than you obviously. But the generation 687 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,679 Speaker 1: who were already adults when twenty twelve came along, when 688 00:40:20,839 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: smartphones and social media kicked off, we got sideswiped. I 689 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: reckon my kids are gonna solve it. Like my eighteen 690 00:40:27,359 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: and fifteen year old, they're so far ahead. They don't 691 00:40:31,319 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: use it for politics, and they're mostly just delete the 692 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,519 Speaker 1: apps because it stresses them out, and they're they're on 693 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 1: their screens a lot, but they're not addicted like my 694 00:40:41,959 --> 00:40:45,999 Speaker 1: generation is. We got surprised. Yeah, it's like smoking in 695 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: the twenties. Everyone just stuck a cigarette now and we 696 00:40:48,839 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 1: just started sucking, you know, like we might not be 697 00:40:51,919 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: the ones to solve it. There might be them those 698 00:40:54,799 --> 00:40:58,079 Speaker 1: brought up by us, by us going watch out, Yes 699 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: don't Daddy didn't have a choice, but you don't smoke, 700 00:41:03,879 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: you know, and they'll be like, Okay, we're here, and 701 00:41:05,919 --> 00:41:08,879 Speaker 1: you like, yeah, I've instilled in my kids such anxiety 702 00:41:08,919 --> 00:41:12,039 Speaker 1: about being addicted to them that they'll go, I've been 703 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:13,959 Speaker 1: scrolling for an hour. I'm going for a job. You know. 704 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,919 Speaker 2: Wow, there's some hope to that. I like that a lot. 705 00:41:17,399 --> 00:41:19,879 Speaker 1: I didn't. We left so many subjects, we left so 706 00:41:19,959 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 1: many paths half trod there. It makes me anxious because 707 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: why did I say that? I didn't? Can I just 708 00:41:24,319 --> 00:41:27,519 Speaker 1: say one thing? Because I just I'm so aware that 709 00:41:27,959 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 1: it's so elite to be like, oh, sometimes I share 710 00:41:32,399 --> 00:41:35,959 Speaker 1: a nuanced opinion and I get quoted out of context, 711 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: and then people pile on me, and it stresses me out. 712 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: I do think it's important to share that because when 713 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,919 Speaker 1: you've been piled on, it radicalizes you against I'm a 714 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,479 Speaker 1: pretty progressive, lefty sort of guy, but in recent years 715 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: I've been piled on enough by really bullying. 716 00:41:53,439 --> 00:41:55,439 Speaker 2: Sort of people on your side. 717 00:41:55,279 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: People so that I've had to work on not thinking 718 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 1: they're my enemy. And there's a many, many examples of 719 00:42:01,479 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: people being radicalized out of their tribe by criticism. I 720 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: just want to say, I think sharing how it feels. 721 00:42:11,279 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: That's why I'm on this podcast. And you asked me, 722 00:42:13,319 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: so I'm sharing it because I always tell the truth, 723 00:42:15,359 --> 00:42:18,679 Speaker 1: try to tell the truth. But it's not me, it's 724 00:42:18,839 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: the cumulative effect of this as culture. And you pointed 725 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 1: to a really interesting thing about a sort of all 726 00:42:25,439 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: swimming in a pool of shame and thinking we're putting 727 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,999 Speaker 1: it on others, but it's sticking on us, you know, 728 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,280 Speaker 1: because we're in the same soup. 729 00:42:32,359 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 2: And I think that idea of polarization and checking your 730 00:42:37,839 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 2: biases against other good arguments that often happens the best 731 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 2: interpersonally rather. 732 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: Than online, one hundred times better. 733 00:42:48,919 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people who have lived 734 00:42:51,879 --> 00:42:55,999 Speaker 2: enough life have had experiences of loving someone who has 735 00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 2: completely different views to you. And we know that relationships 736 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,399 Speaker 2: and connection is the single most important thing for happiness 737 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 2: and well being. And I wonder if we're kind of 738 00:43:07,439 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 2: cutting ourselves off a little bit, we are getting further 739 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 2: and further into these silos. One thing I did want 740 00:43:15,279 --> 00:43:21,079 Speaker 2: to touch on was you have talked about religion and 741 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 2: being kind of anti religion in terms of that polarization. 742 00:43:28,479 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 2: Do you ever get people coming to you and saying 743 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,959 Speaker 2: that they feel hurt or misrepresented or anything like that 744 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 2: because of how you talk about religion. 745 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And one of the reasons I don't do 746 00:43:41,919 --> 00:43:46,959 Speaker 1: it anymore is because in a post social media world. 747 00:43:47,359 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 1: Remember two thousand and five I broke out, which is 748 00:43:49,879 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: only four years post nine to eleven, So there was 749 00:43:52,319 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: a big rise in the discussion about the ways in 750 00:43:56,759 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: which religion goes wrong. So religion builds a sort of 751 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: gold wall around itself, says we're special. And that was 752 00:44:03,759 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: what the pel song was about. It just said the 753 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,479 Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people were feeling, that people 754 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: felt like they couldn't say because of the false gown 755 00:44:14,759 --> 00:44:18,559 Speaker 1: of religiosity that he was. He's dead now, and I 756 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:23,279 Speaker 1: want to acknowledge that I feel less comfortable talking disrespectfully. Oh, 757 00:44:23,479 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: I don't feel any differently. I didn't agree with nearly 758 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 1: everything he did or said, but it wasn't his fault. 759 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: He was a result of what he came from. Now 760 00:44:32,799 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: that I'm more sensitive to this tribalizing thing, I don't 761 00:44:36,759 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: do polemic anymore. Basically, I was a comic polemicist, and 762 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: I was using that power to deconstruct a few kind 763 00:44:45,319 --> 00:44:49,839 Speaker 1: of citadels in my tiny little way, and then everyone 764 00:44:49,879 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: became a polemicist. Now the normal mode is just Europe 765 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,559 Speaker 1: and they don't even make it rhyme. They had no 766 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: effort put into it. My polemics were. I thought about 767 00:45:00,319 --> 00:45:03,959 Speaker 1: them very, very hard. I sharpened my tools. Again. You 768 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 1: might not like my stuff, but you've got to admit 769 00:45:05,959 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: some effort went into these polemics. Now it's just like 770 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,479 Speaker 1: everyone's shouting and I just very early on when okay, 771 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: I'm out. It's one of the reasons I stopped doing comedy. 772 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,039 Speaker 1: I was a bit edgy, and now the world does 773 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 1: not need edge. And also I wanted to go and 774 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,399 Speaker 1: do other stuff. I have very dear religious friends who 775 00:45:23,439 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 1: love me, and I love them to your point. Just 776 00:45:26,479 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: like some of the people who get online and publicly 777 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:31,879 Speaker 1: shame someone for saying the wrong thing have a dad 778 00:45:31,919 --> 00:45:33,599 Speaker 1: who might say that sort of thing, and they love 779 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,399 Speaker 1: their dad. They just understand their dad came from a 780 00:45:35,439 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: different generation and yet they can't extend the privilege of 781 00:45:39,759 --> 00:45:43,359 Speaker 1: understanding to someone on the internet. I find it very 782 00:45:43,399 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 1: easy to love my religious friends. And do you know 783 00:45:46,839 --> 00:45:49,039 Speaker 1: how you can get your head around this? If you're religious? 784 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: They love me. My religious friends love me despite the 785 00:45:53,839 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: fact that I believe they're absolutely opposite to them about 786 00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: one of the most fundamental questions of how you interpret 787 00:45:59,319 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: the universe. So if you're wondering how I can love 788 00:46:01,799 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: my religious friends, just imagine how they can love me. 789 00:46:04,279 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: And maybe you can't imagine either, but I find it 790 00:46:06,799 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 1: super easier. 791 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 2: Did your thoughts about religion, spirituality, all of that? You 792 00:46:15,759 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 2: lost your mum at the end of last year. Oh, 793 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 2: I'm very sorry. 794 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: Well that's all right, Yeah, I lose your mom. 795 00:46:21,319 --> 00:46:25,919 Speaker 2: It's very sad. Did those kinds of experiences challenge your 796 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 2: belief that there's nothing? 797 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,519 Speaker 1: Oh? My god, can you imagine how this week my 798 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: understanding of the universe as a as a deterministic material 799 00:46:35,839 --> 00:46:39,039 Speaker 1: must imagine if like, oh, my mom died now I 800 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 1: believe in God like that means I would have had 801 00:46:40,839 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 1: to go forty eight years being fine with people losing 802 00:46:43,919 --> 00:46:47,319 Speaker 1: kids to cancer and believing in a God, and then 803 00:46:47,319 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: when my mom dies I don't believe in him anymore. 804 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: Like I find that when people go, oh, I used 805 00:46:52,319 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 1: to believe in God, then my kid got so yeah, 806 00:46:54,319 --> 00:46:57,919 Speaker 1: I'm just like, sorry, are you kidding me? Have you 807 00:46:57,959 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: never thought about all those other people? 808 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:00,879 Speaker 2: Yeah? True? 809 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: But when you mad agree, it just shows how differently 810 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,999 Speaker 1: I think about the world from people I know. I 811 00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,519 Speaker 1: sound like I'm sneering. I just this is so far 812 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 1: the idea that my mom dying might make me think, like, 813 00:47:15,799 --> 00:47:20,799 Speaker 1: I am so far gone. I'm so far gone from 814 00:47:20,839 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 1: that my mom. We had this amazing funeral in a 815 00:47:23,359 --> 00:47:27,039 Speaker 1: chapel where we all a huge extended family, many of 816 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 1: whom can really sing and play. We sang all these songs, 817 00:47:30,359 --> 00:47:34,280 Speaker 1: including songs from that mum wanted to have Tomorrow Spring 818 00:47:34,319 --> 00:47:37,839 Speaker 1: will come, which is an incantation from Groundhog Day in 819 00:47:37,839 --> 00:47:39,959 Speaker 1: one of my songs, and we all sang that as 820 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,479 Speaker 1: the coffin like I want for nothing. The funeral of 821 00:47:44,479 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 1: my mum wanted for nothing. There's no God anywhere to 822 00:47:47,799 --> 00:47:52,839 Speaker 1: be seen. Beautiful building with nice acoustics and the gravity 823 00:47:52,879 --> 00:47:54,919 Speaker 1: that comes with those buildings because of the stories that 824 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: have been told in those buildings, because it's a grand 825 00:47:57,919 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: story of humankind. A religious story is a story of 826 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 1: the bigness and smallness of us. And we can tell 827 00:48:04,399 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: those stories in lots of different ways, through lots of 828 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: different narratives. But the idea that I'd sit there going, oh, 829 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,639 Speaker 1: I wish I I don't get it. You just get 830 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 1: him here in the chair, get Jesus in the chair, 831 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,079 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm all in. Yeah, But I know I'd 832 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 1: probably think I was having a breakthwn or that you've 833 00:48:22,839 --> 00:48:24,040 Speaker 1: done some fancy. 834 00:48:23,839 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 2: AI think, when you think about growing old, what do 835 00:48:28,839 --> 00:48:32,519 Speaker 2: you still want in order to feel like you had 836 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 2: lived a happy or insert what you think you're such 837 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,320 Speaker 2: a happy, meaningful, satisfying life. 838 00:48:41,279 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 1: Well, it's what we're talking about. It's being at peace 839 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,359 Speaker 1: with being enough and being able to come down off 840 00:48:49,359 --> 00:48:54,960 Speaker 1: this thing that I found myself on where my value 841 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,319 Speaker 1: system has been distorted by you know, once about ten 842 00:48:58,359 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: thousand people stand up and clap you. It buggers you up, 843 00:49:01,279 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 1: you know, And I work really hard to keep that 844 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,879 Speaker 1: where it belongs, which is in the realm of luck 845 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: and privilege, not in the realm of I'm a fucking legend, 846 00:49:11,319 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: And I know where my values are. I know my 847 00:49:13,799 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 1: values are small and family oriented in community, and and yes, 848 00:49:18,959 --> 00:49:21,839 Speaker 1: more abstract things like critical thinking and trying to be 849 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 1: hard on my opinions and all those things in the book. 850 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:31,039 Speaker 1: But I am very clear that I'm so lucky. I 851 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:35,000 Speaker 1: think I'm probably going to be fine financially, health pending. 852 00:49:35,359 --> 00:49:40,040 Speaker 1: I've got maybe thirty forty years twenty five if I 853 00:49:40,319 --> 00:49:44,640 Speaker 1: get to my mum's age, and I want to be 854 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,999 Speaker 1: happy and less intense and more avuncular. I want to 855 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: be like that lovely, beady guy who's really and I 856 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,400 Speaker 1: am generous with my time, and I really like people, 857 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,319 Speaker 1: and I just want more of that and less of 858 00:50:01,359 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 1: the inner voice going quick. Do more, make them respect, 859 00:50:06,279 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: you make them like you can run ten k's in 860 00:50:09,399 --> 00:50:12,199 Speaker 1: under forty five five minutes. Yeah, one more time before 861 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,239 Speaker 1: you're too old. That engine, which has served me very 862 00:50:16,319 --> 00:50:20,079 Speaker 1: very well, I need to throttle it back because I've 863 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,279 Speaker 1: seen people who never throttle it back, and it ain't pretty. 864 00:50:23,479 --> 00:50:27,519 Speaker 2: It's sort of sort of Really, you don't want to 865 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 2: have that at the end of your life, because. 866 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,519 Speaker 1: It should be going to other people. It should be 867 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: fuel for other people's journey. Somehow, how do you change 868 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: that so that you're offering it outwards and I'm trying. 869 00:50:38,839 --> 00:50:41,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't find it too hard. I just 870 00:50:41,359 --> 00:50:45,680 Speaker 1: need to consciously do it. I need to consciously reroute 871 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,600 Speaker 1: the passion. So it's not about me proving myself to myself, 872 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: but it's about me spreading my privilege, whether it be 873 00:50:54,279 --> 00:51:00,400 Speaker 1: ideas or some funding or time or just passion behind 874 00:51:00,439 --> 00:51:03,880 Speaker 1: someone or a book that gives some people advice or whatever. 875 00:51:04,919 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 1: I want to be nice and I would like to 876 00:51:09,359 --> 00:51:12,999 Speaker 1: get smoother. M you know, I would like to get 877 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 1: round her on the edges. 878 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. I like that idea of like, yeah, enoughness and 879 00:51:18,359 --> 00:51:22,799 Speaker 2: how that would then kind of impact how you looked 880 00:51:22,799 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 2: at the world and not being yeah. Like, I think 881 00:51:26,359 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 2: I've got a bit of a streak of bitterness, and 882 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,879 Speaker 2: I wonder if that sense of being enough would actually 883 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 2: ease that. 884 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: I call it chippiness. Chip on my shoulder. It's not 885 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:43,439 Speaker 1: a nice I've said before. You might have heard in 886 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,279 Speaker 1: stuff you've listened to about one of my many unattractive 887 00:51:47,359 --> 00:51:49,440 Speaker 1: attributes being a sort of righteousness. 888 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,919 Speaker 2: And I think we all intolerance of injustice and kind 889 00:51:53,919 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 2: of thing. 890 00:51:54,359 --> 00:51:55,839 Speaker 1: Yeah is that your Oh? 891 00:51:55,919 --> 00:51:58,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, is that definitely? And I need to get over. 892 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,839 Speaker 1: It some you a second child, I'm a twin. 893 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:09,920 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, no, I'm sort of like the second really, 894 00:52:09,959 --> 00:52:12,159 Speaker 4: the child in the and. 895 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,960 Speaker 1: Weird she's stole the all the nutrients. 896 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I've got a chip exactly. 897 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Being at peace is what you want to aim 898 00:52:25,319 --> 00:52:28,559 Speaker 1: for always. But when you're young, not being at peace 899 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 1: keeps you moving forward, and that can be really good. 900 00:52:30,879 --> 00:52:32,799 Speaker 1: You can make great work and do great things, and 901 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: you can try to fight some of those injustices. You 902 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,079 Speaker 1: can be Matilda. You know it's Matilda who says that's 903 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,719 Speaker 1: not right. You've got to put it right. Well, Miss 904 00:52:40,799 --> 00:52:43,759 Speaker 1: Honey says it isn't much, but it is enough for me. 905 00:52:43,839 --> 00:52:47,279 Speaker 1: Miss Honey protects herself in her house with her what 906 00:52:47,319 --> 00:52:50,360 Speaker 1: she calls her small but stubborn fire. I'm attractively quoting 907 00:52:50,399 --> 00:52:53,439 Speaker 1: my own Lynk, but she's she's realized she just needs 908 00:52:53,479 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: to defend herself. But Matilda in her youth is like, no, 909 00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: we're going to fix stuff, and that passion is appropriate 910 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,999 Speaker 1: and useful. But as you get older and we're not 911 00:53:03,359 --> 00:53:06,359 Speaker 1: you're nowhere near and I'm still not very old, but 912 00:53:06,439 --> 00:53:11,799 Speaker 1: at some point, looking forward, I think there's supporting other 913 00:53:11,799 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: people's passion is more important. 914 00:53:15,479 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 2: Right now, are you happy. 915 00:53:18,479 --> 00:53:21,079 Speaker 1: I moved house today, into a house that we've been 916 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,839 Speaker 1: renovating for two years, so I'm pretty excited. But when 917 00:53:23,919 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 1: I get there and find it's all boxes right now, yeah, 918 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: I'm pretty good. I've always been pretty good. Often when 919 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,239 Speaker 1: I'm doing press, I'm at my That's one of the 920 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,039 Speaker 1: problems is when i'm doing press, I'm often at my 921 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:42,239 Speaker 1: most anxious because I'm I don't like. The terrible dichotomy 922 00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,039 Speaker 1: of this whole thing is I want people to buy 923 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:45,680 Speaker 1: my stuff, and I want them to enjoy, but I 924 00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,440 Speaker 1: don't like seeing myself reflected. I don't like photos of myself. 925 00:53:49,439 --> 00:53:52,439 Speaker 1: I don't like people talking about me in articles and 926 00:53:52,759 --> 00:53:55,999 Speaker 1: doing their version of me. It's horrible. It's really confronting. 927 00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:57,879 Speaker 1: I don't read any of it, but I don't know 928 00:53:57,919 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 1: it's out there, so I always give a bit of 929 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:03,840 Speaker 1: a false report of myself. I've been very, very lucky. 930 00:54:03,879 --> 00:54:08,399 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a person with generally good mental health, and 931 00:54:08,399 --> 00:54:10,799 Speaker 1: I've made a lot of conservative decisions to try and 932 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:15,439 Speaker 1: maintain that by having a single lifelong relationship, give or take, 933 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,919 Speaker 1: and not taking drugs and going running a lot. I 934 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,959 Speaker 1: do things to stop the high as being too high 935 00:54:23,479 --> 00:54:25,039 Speaker 1: for fear of the lows being too low. 936 00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,200 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time today. 937 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:29,640 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. A pleasure. 938 00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:36,040 Speaker 2: Pub that's all we've got time for. On today's episode 939 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 2: of That Are You Happy? Tim Mentionin's new book, You 940 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:43,159 Speaker 2: Don't Have to Have a Dream Advice for the Incrementally 941 00:54:43,279 --> 00:54:49,279 Speaker 2: Ambitious is out now and it's a really inspiring exploration 942 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,879 Speaker 2: of his ideas around compassion and critical thinking and creativity. 943 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,759 Speaker 2: Will put a link in the show notes. This conversation 944 00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:02,359 Speaker 2: challenged me intellectually, which I loved because I haven't been 945 00:55:02,399 --> 00:55:04,799 Speaker 2: able to stop thinking about some of the things we 946 00:55:04,839 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 2: talked about. Tim has fascinating insights into what it's like 947 00:55:10,359 --> 00:55:13,999 Speaker 2: to be the focus of media stories that are designed 948 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,839 Speaker 2: to polarize us and make us angry, and how that 949 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,039 Speaker 2: feels on a personal level, and the innate frustration that 950 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,160 Speaker 2: comes with feeling like you're being misrepresented. 951 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:26,839 Speaker 1: I thought it was. 952 00:55:26,799 --> 00:55:32,200 Speaker 2: Actually quite powerful that we explored that in real time. 953 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,719 Speaker 2: When I asked him a question that was the result 954 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,799 Speaker 2: of a misrepresentation of something Tim had said, and I'm 955 00:55:40,799 --> 00:55:42,839 Speaker 2: glad that he called me out on it, and it 956 00:55:42,919 --> 00:55:46,319 Speaker 2: reminded me that even as somebody who works in media 957 00:55:46,399 --> 00:55:49,919 Speaker 2: it is so easy to just see a headline, to 958 00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:54,079 Speaker 2: just see the top line of a story and think 959 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,319 Speaker 2: you've got the gist of it. And there's a human 960 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,519 Speaker 2: and a human's complex ideas that are being flattened by 961 00:56:01,479 --> 00:56:05,440 Speaker 2: the way we consume media today. I hope this chat 962 00:56:05,799 --> 00:56:09,759 Speaker 2: was food for thought about how we use social media 963 00:56:09,879 --> 00:56:14,279 Speaker 2: and the phenomenon of public shaming. It's a topic I'm 964 00:56:14,279 --> 00:56:17,160 Speaker 2: really interested in from a mental health perspective, and I 965 00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,800 Speaker 2: was so glad that Tim was willing to talk about 966 00:56:19,799 --> 00:56:25,319 Speaker 2: it candidly. If you like this episode, please share it, 967 00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,719 Speaker 2: rate and review it, DM me tell me what you 968 00:56:28,839 --> 00:56:31,439 Speaker 2: thought of it. I'm always so interested to hear from 969 00:56:31,439 --> 00:56:35,200 Speaker 2: our listeners about what they got from particular episodes, And 970 00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,080 Speaker 2: if you ever have a guest suggestion, you can always 971 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,600 Speaker 2: come and send me a message. I love to hear them. 972 00:56:41,959 --> 00:56:44,919 Speaker 2: The executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Nama Brown, 973 00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 2: and the producer is Tylie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik. 974 00:56:49,479 --> 00:56:52,119 Speaker 2: I'm your host, Claire Stevens, and we'll see you next week.