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Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Jurgen's Natural Glow moisturizer.

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Speaker 2: Self sabotage as well. It's a really crippling thing. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: if you don't have the people in your corner that

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Speaker 2: are offering you that encouragement and support, those little self

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Speaker 2: sabotaging thoughts are always going to win. In order to

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Speaker 2: move forward and create change, people are going to have

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Speaker 2: to get uncomfortable because the rest of the people that

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Speaker 2: aren't included are uncomfortable permanently because they're not represented. We're

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Speaker 2: also unique as human beings, and that uniqueness is what

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Speaker 2: makes us all beautiful, and being different is what makes

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Speaker 2: us beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the c's the YA Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives.

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Speaker 2: They adore, the.

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Speaker 1: Good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days will

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Speaker 1: bear all the facets of seizing your YEA. I'm Sarah

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Speaker 1: Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, A lawyer turned funentrepreneurs

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Speaker 1: wapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden

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Speaker 1: and matcha Milk bar.

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Speaker 2: Cza is a series of.

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Speaker 1: Conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the

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Speaker 1: self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Hello,

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Speaker 1: beautiful yighborhood. I can't believe we've reached our final episode

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Speaker 1: for the year. I actually had one or two more

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Speaker 1: at my sleeve, but I'm trying to practice what I

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Speaker 1: preach and not stick so rigidly to my own deadlines

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Speaker 1: that were arbitrary Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only

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Speaker 1: one who's starting to fade away a little bit, so

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Speaker 1: I'm saving those episodes instead to come back with fresh

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Speaker 1: and fabulous new energy next year. I always say it,

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Speaker 1: but I need reminding myself that there's no point going

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Speaker 1: so hard that you don't do it properly. So our

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Speaker 1: lovely guest today will be our last for twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: and I'll re release a couple of the older episodes

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Speaker 1: in the meantime so you have something to listen to

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Speaker 1: if you need to catch up on any of those.

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Speaker 1: And boy, does Jennifer Attilamel have a great message to

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Speaker 1: finish us off on wading through uncertainty, rejection and adversity

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Speaker 1: to embrace all that makes her different and unique and

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Speaker 1: make history in the process. This year, she's gone from

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Speaker 1: having no work for four months and wondering if she'd

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Speaker 1: ever work again, to becoming Australia's first ever curve model

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Speaker 1: to start in a victorious secret campaign. She is a

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Speaker 1: passionate advocate for inclusion and diversity, encouraged further by her

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Speaker 1: mixed heritage, with her father coming from the French island

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Speaker 1: of Reignon or Reunion Island and her mother an ossie

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Speaker 1: of Irish and Danish descent, moving from performing arts to

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Speaker 1: double majors at university and then falling into modeling more recently.

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Speaker 1: Jennifer has such wise words to share on the tangents

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Speaker 1: of finding your yea, blocking out the noise to hear

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Speaker 1: your own intuition, and finding where your voice can make

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Speaker 1: its best contribution to this world. I hope you guys

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Speaker 1: enjoy as much as I do, and, of course, since

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Speaker 1: we can't travel at the moment, enjoy some of the

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Speaker 1: scenery sounds from beautiful New York City. Lovely Jennifer, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show.

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Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to have you on the show,

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Speaker 1: and from a different time zone as well, which is

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Speaker 1: always I mean, I know technology has been around for

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Speaker 1: a really long time now, but it just makes me

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Speaker 1: excited every time totally.

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Speaker 2: And I think this. I think the pandemic has almost

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Speaker 2: made us really lean into the technology. I think it's

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Speaker 2: always been there, but now we're actually using it for

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Speaker 2: what it was supposed to be for.

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Speaker 1: I don't think i'd ever used soon before. I was

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Speaker 1: always like, who are these people that do all these

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Speaker 1: online video chats? And now I'm like, I live here now.

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Speaker 1: So the very first question before we kick off is

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Speaker 1: a little icebreaker where we ask everyone what's the most

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Speaker 1: down to earth thing about you? And especially when we

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Speaker 1: know people like yourself through your career and certain very

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Speaker 1: impressive achievements like becoming a victorious secret model, which is

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Speaker 1: probably the least relatable scenario to most of us. I

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Speaker 1: think it's sometimes hard to humanize who people are when

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Speaker 1: they're just being themselves, and you know, we all have

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Speaker 1: a really normal side. So what's something really relatable or

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Speaker 1: something that you think is normal about you?

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Speaker 2: I say this all the time, and I think people

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Speaker 2: do kind of, you know, put me on this pedestal

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Speaker 2: because I am you know, you know, quote unquote like model,

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Speaker 2: and so they think that I'm, you know, this unattainable

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Speaker 2: kind of level of human. But I am so normal.

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Speaker 2: It's not funny at least I think I am. I'm

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I think the most down to earth

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Speaker 2: thing about me is that I'm just a massive dog

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Speaker 2: like love really lame stuff. I'm a musical theater nerd.

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Speaker 2: I'm your dorky dad at Christmas time that you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm just I'm just a wido. But that's probably.

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Speaker 1: I love weirdos. I'm such a weirdo. And I love

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Speaker 1: that because particularly for modeling, and you know, in the

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Speaker 1: media and fashion industries, things seem extra glossy, like all

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Speaker 1: of us portray a bit of a glossy surface in

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Speaker 1: our digital identities anyway, just because of the nature of

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Speaker 1: the platform, but particularly in your industry, we do see

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Speaker 1: these beautiful, polished campaigns. And I mean, you've just hit

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Speaker 1: an incredible milestone, literally making history as the first Australian

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Speaker 1: curve model to join Victoria's Secret, which is I mean,

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Speaker 1: the whole universe puts Victoria's Secret on a pedestal. So

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Speaker 1: it's no wonder you kind of sit up at a

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Speaker 1: different level in our minds. But I just love reminding

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Speaker 1: everyone that behind every face you see is usually a

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Speaker 1: huge dog who loves lame stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the first section is your Wayta, which pretty much

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Speaker 1: just traces back through all the chapters before the one

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Speaker 1: that we walk into now in your life. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's so easy for us to assume that people

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Speaker 1: woke up in the positions where they are, you know,

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Speaker 1: knowing what they stand for, knowing their direction, and it

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Speaker 1: always looks like a much smoother ride than it ever

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Speaker 1: really is. So yeah, I'd like to go back to

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Speaker 1: the beginning to your childhood and trace back through how

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Speaker 1: you made the decisions and what sliding doors, moments and

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Speaker 1: crossroads led you to where you are today. So take

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Speaker 1: us back to young Jennifer in Canberra before Melbourne and

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Speaker 1: what your upbringing was like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I had a pretty I guess, a

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Speaker 2: pretty normal upbringing in the sense that I went to

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Speaker 2: good school like all that sort of thing. But I

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Speaker 2: did move around a lot, and I guess that kind

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Speaker 2: of took a toll in my friendships and that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing. And I was quite all over the place

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Speaker 2: in terms of what I really wanted to do. But

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Speaker 2: I guess from a really young age, I actually started

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Speaker 2: out performing. I did ballet and like jazz dance from

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Speaker 2: I think around four or five, and then I joined

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Speaker 2: twoir like I was part of the aut Girls Choir

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Speaker 2: and did the conscious TV commercials all that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: Then it was desperate to one day end up on Broadways.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like New York was actually always in

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Speaker 2: my sights, but just for a completely different reason. And

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Speaker 2: then I had done like drama and musical theater music

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Speaker 2: all through school, and I had auditioned for all of

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Speaker 2: these colleges and stuff, and I actually got rejected from

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Speaker 2: all of them, and they told me that I needed

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Speaker 2: more life experience before they would, you know, potentially accept me.

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Speaker 2: And I saw that as the biggest no, and I

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Speaker 2: gave up on that chapter, literally packed it up in

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Speaker 2: a box and threw away the key, and went to

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Speaker 2: university and got into politics and journalism. But it's funny

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Speaker 2: because I was actually reflecting on it the other day,

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Speaker 2: and this massive no that I got from my musical

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Speaker 2: theater dreams, I faced that every day. In the modeling industry,

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Speaker 2: we have so much rejection where we're knocked back from

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Speaker 2: job time after time again. And if I didn't have,

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Speaker 2: I guess, a sense of self and a self, I

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Speaker 2: guess a confidence in my ability, I would have given

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Speaker 2: up modeling as well. So it's funny that, you know,

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Speaker 2: now I feel like I'm in such a better place

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Speaker 2: to deal with rejection. But it's I think too, I

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Speaker 2: also didn't always want to be a model. I think

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Speaker 2: that is also should be kind of out there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I grew up with parents who wanted me to get

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Speaker 2: a respectable job, something not in the arts at all,

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Speaker 2: something stable with a good income, and I did not

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Speaker 2: do that. I feel like, you know, I've got a

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Speaker 2: good income, but it's definitely not stable. And the pandemic

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Speaker 2: really taught me that. But yeah, I had gone to university.

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Speaker 2: I did a master's degree in international relations and journalism

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Speaker 2: as well, and I think it was, yeah, through my

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Speaker 2: university that I kind of found the passion to advocate

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Speaker 2: for certain things. And I guess just by nature just

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Speaker 2: being who I am who I was too, like my

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Speaker 2: dad being black. I think you know that I just

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Speaker 2: naturally more advocating for equal rights. But then yeah, being

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Speaker 2: flung into the modeling industry and then working really hard

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Speaker 2: and kind of getting to where I am now and

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Speaker 2: working internationally and seeing the levels of I guess or

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Speaker 2: lack of diversity globally, not just in Australia. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of made me really want to speak up more for that,

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Speaker 2: just generally.

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Speaker 1: I think that's so interesting in two ways. Firstly, just

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Speaker 1: on a personal level, in terms of what you've become

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Speaker 1: passionate about and found a really really strong voice for.

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Speaker 1: You don't wake up with that voice. I think it

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Speaker 1: does take us quite a few years and experiences to

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Speaker 1: get comfortable enough with where we sit, particularly with ethnicity

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Speaker 1: and background and identity, and in a country that is

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Speaker 1: incredibly culturally diverse, but maybe a little bit behind in

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Speaker 1: some areas of substantive equality in that cultural diversity. But

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Speaker 1: then how that's also kind of applied to your career

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Speaker 1: that it also took you a while to fall into modeling,

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Speaker 1: and it did take a few twists and turns first

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Speaker 1: before you sort of returned to the creative industry after

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Speaker 1: having pushed away your first ya. And now you know,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you lament that looking back in your childhood,

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Speaker 1: you already had all the ingredients about what your joy

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Speaker 1: was performing arts. You know, this podcast is all about

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Speaker 1: finding your ya, and various reasons often make us stifle

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Speaker 1: that even though we have all the ingredients when we're younger.

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Speaker 1: What I want this podcast to do is give people

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Speaker 1: permission not to stifle what makes them joyful because of

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Speaker 1: expectations or stability or certainty. And it's so interesting the

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Speaker 1: diversions you end up making based on those decisions, Like

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Speaker 1: a double master's in international relations and journalism is the

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Speaker 1: strangest diversion from performing arts. NERD and the VCA and

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Speaker 1: NIDER and their Victoria's Secret model. You know, It's just

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Speaker 1: life is just so not linear, and I think people

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Speaker 1: forget that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think too. I like, sorry about the

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Speaker 2: background knows as well. I live in New York, so

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Speaker 2: that's going to come in and out.

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Speaker 1: It adds character.

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Speaker 2: I don't worry, but I think, you know, as I'm

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Speaker 2: getting older, and especially this year, I've had so much

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Speaker 2: time to reflect just on my life and what I'm doing,

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Speaker 2: Like I have been so lost this year, but also

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Speaker 2: so sure of what I'm doing. Like it's been a

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Speaker 2: really weird year. But I think I've had a lot

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Speaker 2: of time to reflect on everything that's made me who

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Speaker 2: I am today, and all of those little diversions have

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Speaker 2: actually shaped me into the woman that I am today.

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Speaker 2: And I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for all

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Speaker 2: of the things that happened, like all of the rejections,

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Speaker 2: all of the bad decisions, all of the you know,

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Speaker 2: like I failed my first year of university, like all

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Speaker 2: of these little things. I wouldn't be here now if

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Speaker 2: I didn't make those life choices. Some of them were good,

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Speaker 2: some of them were bad. And like you said, I

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Speaker 2: think I definitely did have the formula to be this

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Speaker 2: person back when I was a girl, but I'd had

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Speaker 2: to go through those things. Like I look back at

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Speaker 2: my childhood, I was such a performer, and I look

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Speaker 2: at modeling now and I look at you know, the

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Speaker 2: kinds of things we do, and it is very, very

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Speaker 2: similar to performing. It's just kind of got a different

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Speaker 2: label on it. So I definitely had it, I think,

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Speaker 2: all within me.

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Speaker 1: To begin with, Yeah, well, I really want to dive

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Speaker 1: into this topic. I think you just have so much

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Speaker 1: experience and eloquence with your unique cultural heritage and I'd

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Speaker 1: be particularly interested given I have a different story but

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Speaker 1: also quite unique being adopted cross culturally. You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: fascinated by this topic. But before that, I just want

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Speaker 1: to go back to what you mentioned on the Pathway

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Speaker 1: about rejection and how important it is for us to

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Speaker 1: build a tolerance for that kind of rejection, and also

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Speaker 1: the self sabotage of taking a no is final and

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Speaker 1: how much that can stiffle your dreams and draw you

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Speaker 1: away from something that you really love. And I heard,

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Speaker 1: I think it was on the Shameless podcast that girls

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Speaker 1: up there are absolutely amazing, and I loved your interview.

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Speaker 1: There's actually a psychologist who told you or who swayed

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Speaker 1: you away from performing arts and that you know you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't make it and there were not enough jobs. And

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Speaker 1: it just gives me shivers because I truly believe in

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Speaker 1: the value of therapy, but it gives me goosebumps that

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever doubt you're feeling will either echo and

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Speaker 1: grow or diminish and fade depending on who you speak

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Speaker 1: to and who you consult in those crucial moments of

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Speaker 1: your life. And I can't believe, you know, a professional

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Speaker 1: echoed those doubts for you rather than helped you. Weide

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Speaker 1: through them. So tell us about that experience and what

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Speaker 1: you now believe about self sabotage, doubt and decision making.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I look back on that moment pretty much all

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Speaker 2: the time because it was such a pivotal moment in

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Speaker 2: my I guess decision making as to whether or not

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Speaker 2: I would I guess probably pursue the performing arts university

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Speaker 2: route after those rejection like first rejection auditions. But I

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Speaker 2: also find it really strange too, because I also strongly

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Speaker 2: believe in like therapy and all of that sort of thing,

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Speaker 2: but I stopped going or I didn't. I didn't stop

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Speaker 2: going to therapy, but I was really afraid of therapy

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Speaker 2: for a really long time because of the advice I

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Speaker 2: guess that I got from this therapist back when I

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Speaker 2: was younger. And I truly believe that if you surround

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Speaker 2: yourself with people who or just influencers or little outside

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Speaker 2: voices or you know, whatever it is that tells you

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Speaker 2: that you can't do it, then that's how you're going

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Speaker 2: to perceive everything. Not just the thing that you're working towards,

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Speaker 2: but everything around you will be I guess, like almost

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Speaker 2: tarnished with a lens of I guess negativity or self

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Speaker 2: doubt or something like that. But if you truly I

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Speaker 2: think too, if you truly want something and you believe

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Speaker 2: deep down in your gut that you can do it,

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Speaker 2: I think there's nothing that can stop you. Obviously, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, like, if you're not good, I'll actually come

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Speaker 2: to that conclusion yourself. But I don't think that people

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Speaker 2: around you should be telling you you can't do it.

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Speaker 2: I think that they should be encouraging you to give

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Speaker 2: it a try and being there for you and offering

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Speaker 2: support if it doesn't work out. You know, I don't

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Speaker 2: think they should be saying from the get going, no,

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Speaker 2: I don't think you should do it. I believe in

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Speaker 2: telling everyone to go for their dreams and if they

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Speaker 2: really want something, you know, they will work towards it,

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Speaker 2: or they'll find what their little niche is within the

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Speaker 2: thing that they actually wanted and kind of pivot and

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Speaker 2: go down a different direction. But yeah, I self sabotage

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Speaker 2: as well. Is I do it all the time. Still,

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Speaker 2: it's a really crippling thing. And yeah, if you don't

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Speaker 2: have the people in your corner that are offering you

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Speaker 2: that encouragement and support those little self sabotaging thoughts are

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Speaker 2: always going to win. I think, you know, you kind

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Speaker 2: of need people. They're around you supporting you to go

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Speaker 2: for your dreams and chase your dreams, so that if

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Speaker 2: you do have a little moment where you're like, I

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Speaker 2: can't do that now, I'm not good enough, they're there

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Speaker 2: behind you being like, no, of course you can, like,

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Speaker 2: don't give up. You're so close, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that reminds me of that quote. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can't live a positive life in a negative environment, and

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Speaker 1: so of course if you're surrounded with people who are

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Speaker 1: you know, not even necessarily not caring for you, but

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Speaker 1: who are just concerned or risk averse or trying to

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Speaker 1: protect you. Like you said, you know, you need to

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Speaker 1: make those decisions and discoveries for yourself. You need to

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Speaker 1: go out and maybe get a few rejections, because they

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Speaker 1: do help you form a thicker skin. And I also

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Speaker 1: love the quote rejection is simply redirection, but by someone

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Speaker 1: actually counseling you that you're not going to make it

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Speaker 1: and only a small amount of people do make it

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Speaker 1: to the top, and you should not try. I mean

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Speaker 1: that just blows my mind the impact that that must

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Speaker 1: have had on your mentality towards that pathway for yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think still to this day. I've actually made

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Speaker 2: a pact with my friend that I'm going to start

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Speaker 2: singing it again. It's my goal for the end of

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Speaker 2: the year. I have to book myself into a singing lesson.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise I have to make a donation to a charity

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Speaker 2: that I do not support. So I'm definitely enrolling myself

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Speaker 2: in a voice lesson. But I've been singing throughout this pandemic,

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Speaker 2: and I've realized that there is something within me that's

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Speaker 2: actually holding me back. And I think it is probably

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Speaker 2: I've incos to do like some kind of hypnotherapy like

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Speaker 2: regression into childhood trauma or something like that. That little

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Speaker 2: sentence from that therapist is what is holding me back

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Speaker 2: from so much other things, so many other things. Sorry

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Speaker 2: I can't speak English. Probably like using my voice. It's

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Speaker 2: taken me really long time to work through the fear

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Speaker 2: of using my voice, whether it's singing, whether it's being

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Speaker 2: advocating for things, you know, whether it's just standing up

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Speaker 2: for myself in relationships, friendships, all of that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: There's such a profound to impact something so small as

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Speaker 2: one sentence that you'll never be able to do anything.

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Speaker 2: That's not really what he said, but it kind of

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Speaker 2: to such a young mind, it can really have such

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Speaker 2: a detrimental effect into my adulthood. And I'm kind of

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Speaker 2: only realizing that this year, but I've worked really hard,

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Speaker 2: I think, to unlearn it.

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Speaker 1: It's so important to always be conscious of just the

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Speaker 1: power that narratives that we tell ourselves can have, because

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Speaker 1: as soon as you acknowledge them, then you have the power,

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Speaker 1: as you said, to unlearn them. Whereas if you're not

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Speaker 1: aware that you're perpetuating this belief about yourself or about

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Speaker 1: your pathway, it can control your life for years before

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Speaker 1: you even pick up on it. And so I think

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Speaker 1: that's such a valuable reminder to just reflect on maybe

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Speaker 1: the narratives you're telling yourself that are holding yourself back,

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Speaker 1: and then what you can do to counteract that. And

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Speaker 1: I think your story also is really powerful in that

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Speaker 1: same area of how you've learned and developed your own

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Speaker 1: narrative about your ethnicity as well and your heritage, which

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Speaker 1: I imagine and when you are much younger, and particularly

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Speaker 1: in a much less diverse time where the conversations were

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Speaker 1: a lot different when we were children, coming from your

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Speaker 1: you know, your father's from Reignon or the French Reunion Island,

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Speaker 1: and your mum's Aussie of Irish and Danish descent. It's unique.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I've heard you speaking about, you know, being

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Speaker 1: at school where no one really looks like you, and

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Speaker 1: I had a similar experience in a different way, but

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Speaker 1: also of you know, spending a lot of my earlier

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Speaker 1: years wondering why I looked different and it's not that

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Speaker 1: commonly experienced or commonly spoken about. So talk us through

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Speaker 1: how that impacted your childhood and then how you've come

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Speaker 1: to the point now where you are using your voice

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Speaker 1: so strongly and becoming world firsts. And you know, of

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Speaker 1: course in this area there's a bit of an element

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Speaker 1: of tokenism, which I've also heard you speak about before.

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Speaker 1: But I love that you'll see, you know, seeing the

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Speaker 1: silver lining of yes, there is tokenism, but making the

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Speaker 1: most of that also paves the way for that tokenism

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Speaker 1: to eventually fad over time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think with my childhood, I think because we

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Speaker 2: weren't having these kinds of conversations, I guess I never

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Speaker 2: really realized the psychological impact that the constant feeling of

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Speaker 2: being different, and I guess the trauma of the casual

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Speaker 2: covert racism actually has on your development as you get older.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's something that I really started learning

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Speaker 2: about this year around May, with the George Floyd protests

387
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Speaker 2: and the subsequent re I guess ignition of the Black

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Speaker 2: Lives Matter movement in America. That there was so much

389
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Speaker 2: information kind of coming at me and all of this

390
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,120
Speaker 2: material that I was consuming that I was like, oh, wow, okay,

391
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,639
Speaker 2: so my childhood and like my school, so much happened

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Speaker 2: to me that I just brushed off, you know. If

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Speaker 2: I've reacted, people just be like, oh, you're being too much,

394
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Speaker 2: Like it was just a joke, Like all of those

395
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,680
Speaker 2: kind of little little things that chip away your over time,

396
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Speaker 2: and you just end up developing such a thick skin

397
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Speaker 2: those small words don't hurt you anymore because you've just

398
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Speaker 2: had to deal with it your whole life. Obviously, there

399
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 2: were things that did I still remember to this day,

400
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Speaker 2: like words and actions that happened, you know, in primary

401
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 2: school and in secondary school. But I think for me,

402
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 2: my childhood and my experiences of racism, it wasn't so

403
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Speaker 2: much directed at me, it was more my brother and

404
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Speaker 2: my dad. I would say I had a bit of

405
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Speaker 2: like pretty privilege and that people did kind of see

406
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 2: me as this exotic beauty, even though I hate the

407
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 2: word exotic. It's fetishization. But I think that kind of

408
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 2: allowed me to do a lot more because when you

409
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Speaker 2: look at both me and my brother, we've come from

410
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 2: the exact same family, yet we're so different in terms

411
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Speaker 2: of what we've been able to achieve. And I put

412
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Speaker 2: that down to the fact that he just didn't get

413
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Speaker 2: the opportunities because of being racially profiled and held back

414
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Speaker 2: in certain aspects of his life. But that has then

415
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 2: allowed me to, I guess, be as vocal as I

416
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Speaker 2: am in the industry that I'm in now. And I

417
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 2: know Australia I really want to say Australia is trying,

418
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Speaker 2: and I know within my circles and my friendship groups,

419
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Speaker 2: you know we really are. And I've seen the fashion

420
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: industry in Australia really try and embrace more diversity, and

421
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Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot to be said within Australia

422
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Speaker 2: and I think, you know, we're starting and the token

423
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 2: ism is still there, but with Australia, I feel like

424
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Speaker 2: it runs so much deeper, and that comes down to

425
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,239
Speaker 2: the acknowledgment of the Indigenous culture and the people that

426
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: you know, it's the oldest civilization in human history and

427
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 2: there's such a dark past in Australia with the Indigenous

428
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: people and the government still I think isn't really recognizing that.

429
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Speaker 2: And until we can have like this overarching acknowledgment of

430
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 2: the pain and the trauma that colonization caused the First

431
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 2: Nations people, I think we can't even begin to start

432
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Speaker 2: talking about other kinds of racism and other kinds of

433
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 2: inclusion because that still isn't fixed. So I want to

434
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Speaker 2: be a voice and I want to be active in

435
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 2: that conversation. But I still think there's so far we

436
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 2: need to go. But I definitely think that it does

437
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: start in what we see. And you don't see something,

438
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: you don't believe it. If you don't see people that

439
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 2: look like you in you know, advertising in TV shows,

440
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: presenting you know, the news, or giving the press conferences,

441
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 2: you know, as the head of law enforcement, then you're

442
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: not going to think that you can even do these things.

443
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: And I'm not. I'm talking like all ethnicities now, and

444
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 2: I think that's why My fight has been so so

445
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 2: vocal because when I was starting out modeling, you know,

446
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: that was not much diversity in Australia. That's why the

447
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 2: majority of US, you know, go overseas and not the

448
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,719
Speaker 2: job opportunities in Australia as there are in you know,

449
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: Europe and the US. And and I think the token is,

450
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: like I said earlier, the tokenism is there. But I

451
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: do believe that tokenism has to happen to begin with

452
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: in order for the doors to open for more people

453
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: to be represented. There's always that one person, you know,

454
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: I look at on a completely different note of just

455
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 2: body diversity. You look at someone like Ashley Graham. She

456
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 2: was the only plus size model to do high fashion runways.

457
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 2: And now we've just had Jill, Paloma and Alva all

458
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 2: in the cover were actually even precious. They all walked

459
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: for VERSACEI Jill walked for Chanelle. You know, it's starting

460
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: to happen. And it started off with one person and

461
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: it is now five people. And you know, I'm so

462
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 2: hopeful that the way of the future. I feel like

463
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 2: you can't go backwards from there. But I just feel like,

464
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 2: especially in Australia, it's kind of stagnant. And what I've

465
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: noticed as well is around the Black Lives Matter protests

466
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: in May in June, everyone was so vocal and wanting

467
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 2: to do a lot, and it's kind of died back

468
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: down and people have gone back to normal because normal

469
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: is easy. Normal means that you don't have to get uncomfortable.

470
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 2: But in order to move forward and create change, people

471
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: are going to have to get uncomfortable because the rest

472
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: of the people that aren't included are uncomfortable permanently because

473
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 2: they're not represented. So I think it's just disbalanced now.

474
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: Of just hopefully that's such an impactful way to put

475
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: it in terms of discomfort, that we do avoid discomfort

476
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: broadly in so many eras of our lives, because of

477
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: course it doesn't feel good, But I don't think people

478
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: even necessarily reflect on the fact that the discomfort for

479
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 1: others and minorities and people of color, it is a

480
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 1: permanent discomfort until everyone else can learn to push through

481
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: their discomfort to move forward in these conversations and not

482
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: stay stagnant. Before we continue with this installment of yay,

483
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: just got a little hot tip to share as get

484
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: your legs back out season is upon us while the

485
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: pasty glory of my immediate post isoskin needed a lot

486
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: of extra help. Now that my skin has a bit

487
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: of natural color back, I've been absolutely loving Jurgen's Natural

488
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: Glow moisturizer that has a built in gradual glow while

489
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: deeply hydrating your skin at the same time. This way

490
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: you can build some color gently over several uses, without

491
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: any streaks or odor and avoiding any flaky dry skin,

492
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: especially on those knees and elbows. I moisturize all over

493
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: my body daily anyway, so building up some bronze while

494
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: I do so is a dream. The Firming range also

495
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: visibly firms up the skin over seven days, which is

496
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: always an added bonuts. I'll pop the link in the

497
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: show notes. Now back to the show and something else

498
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: I love about you is the way that you've found

499
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: your voice in these areas. Has begun with an actual

500
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: singing voice and a performing arts voice, then taken quite

501
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: a political, like technically political academic route, but then after

502
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: graduation and infinitely qualified to go into politics or into

503
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: some kind of organization like that, that you came back

504
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: to a more creative industry, but have still found your voice.

505
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: And I think that's a wonderful an inspiring example to

506
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: others that gives them permission not to take the conventional

507
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: pathway necessarily to achieve what they want to achieve. When

508
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: you did graduate with all the pressure to use your degree,

509
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, there's so much, so much pressure on ourselves

510
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: but also externally to make the most of our qualifications

511
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: and use our intellect. And like, I was a lawyer

512
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: for three years mostly because I thought that was what

513
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: I should do, But I've now found a probably much

514
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: more powerful and impactful voice because the way I communicate

515
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: is the way I'm best at communicating. How did you

516
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: find your way into modeling in that initial decision of

517
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go the pathway that I've studied

518
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,479
Speaker 1: for and that I've invested all this X in and

519
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: time and sweat, blood, sweat and tears. Now you are

520
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: literally making world first in history. But before you knew

521
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: that that would be you know, before you knew that that's

522
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: where you'd end up. How did you take the risk

523
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: on that? How did you build to where you are

524
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 1: now in that career? And I know it didn't come

525
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: without its hurdles in diversity in many forms, in sizing

526
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: and eating disorders and trying to conform and then finding

527
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 1: the comfort in who you are. No one gives them

528
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: selves permission to embrace who they are, and it stripped

529
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: so much joy and happiness from our lives. But I

530
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: love that you've I think there was a quote that

531
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: you said, which is joy is resistance and having kind

532
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: of conformed to get jobs for so long and then gone,

533
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: you know what, fuck it, I'm just going to be

534
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: me and look what it's done for you.

535
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think I guess I stumbled upon modeling.

536
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: There was a part of me that wanted to do it,

537
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: but it wasn't for the reasons that I am doing

538
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: it now. When I was younger, I was so obsessed

539
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: with the allure of material wealth and that, you know,

540
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: the American dreams, the Paris Hilton and like Nicole Richie

541
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: and the Kim Kardashians like, but when they were first

542
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: starting out, I think Mary, Kate and Olsen were also

543
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: kind of inspirations, which it says a lot about who

544
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: I was trying to be when I was younger, Like

545
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: I was so desperate to fit in to I guess too.

546
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: I was a scholarship kid at a private girls school,

547
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,959
Speaker 2: so I didn't have the levels of wealth that my

548
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: peers grew up with. So I would I look back,

549
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: and I was like, I was trying to be a

550
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: white girl and I wasn't. And you know, I was

551
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: dying my hair blonde. I was on all of these

552
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: crazy diets. I was fake tanning with my friends. I

553
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: think I was wearing blue contacts for a while, Like

554
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: I wanted to be blonde hair, blue, whye toned, tanned

555
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: bikini babe that was like the pinnacle of Australian beauty. Yeah.

556
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: I was just so conflicted within my identity, not just

557
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: as I guess a young teenager going through adolescents and

558
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: body changes and hormones and development and all of that

559
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: sort of thing, but also I guess within my cultural

560
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: identity then being the size that I was and being

561
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: so big I wasn't. I'm not even I say being

562
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: so big. I wasn't even that big, but to me

563
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: I was because the ideal of beauty was to be thin,

564
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: and I was maybe like a size twelve when I

565
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: was in I don't know, year eight or nine. I

566
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: had boobs very very early. I got my period very early,

567
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: so I had just developed in and I had the

568
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: body of a young woman as a young girl, and

569
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: I think that that played a lot on my mind.

570
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: But what I did play a lot on my mind,

571
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: and I think that is part of the reason. There's

572
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 2: multiple other reasons. I'm sure I can talk about it

573
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: for hours, you know, eating disorders and all of that

574
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,719
Speaker 2: sort of thing. But I had been approached after you know,

575
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: auditioning for Next Stop Model, was it, Yeah, yeah, and

576
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 2: ended up being approached by two agencies. They wanted me

577
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: to lose more weight and my mom said no, and

578
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: at the time, Mum ruined my life, but he actually

579
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: saved me. And I guess I went down the path

580
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: of academia and finishing school and going to university and

581
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 2: all that sort of thing. And it's funny now because

582
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: I got my modeling contract, my current modeling contract, and

583
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: you know, went off to started in Australia and at

584
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: the time I was doing my masters, and I really

585
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: I was itching to go overseas, but I didn't have

586
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: enough money to go overseas because moving overseas, to anyone

587
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: that's done it, it costs a lot of money. And

588
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: I hadn't finished my degree. And my mom said to

589
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: me you won't finish it if you put it on

590
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: pause and go and come back. And she's right, because

591
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had the time. And I or it's

592
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: not that I wouldn't have had the time. I would

593
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: have had time. I just wouldn't have wanted to do it.

594
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: So I said to myself, I'm not going to go

595
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: overseas until I finished my degree. You know, I believe

596
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: in timing. I believe everything does happen for a reason.

597
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: And I was supposed to finish my degree because if

598
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: I didn't finish it, then I wouldn't have had the

599
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: same trajectory as I had to end up where I

600
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: am now. But like all of that, it was so conflicting.

601
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: I was extremely, extremely burnt out because I was trying

602
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 2: to save to go overseas. I was working two jobs.

603
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: I was modeling, I was doing a double masters, I

604
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: was interning at a peace and security institute at the university.

605
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: Like I was trying to do it all. I was

606
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: so unwell. My hair started falling out, and I was like,

607
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: I can't do this, Like if this is what success means,

608
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: or like the road to success, if that is what

609
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: it's going to cost me, like I can't do it,

610
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: but I did. I ended up finishing everything. I ended

611
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: up saving all my money, and I just went overseas.

612
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: I took the risk and I went overseas. And my

613
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: first like my first I think six months in London

614
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: were pretty bad, like I didn't really work at all,

615
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: and I was so close to coming home because I

616
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: had run out of my money. I was I'd been

617
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: there four months and I had about a month of

618
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 2: wages left, like living expenses left, and I just thought, Okay,

619
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: well I've tried it, and I'm gonna have to go home.

620
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: This sucks. I thought I was gonna, like in the

621
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: back of my mind, I'm like, I really thought I

622
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: was gonna, you know, make it. And then I think

623
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: I've got my stories wrong in timelines. But I was

624
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: in my hotel room at some point and I get

625
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: this email from my agent in Australia who'd been in

626
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: New York, and she was like, just had this meeting

627
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: with your now agent at IMG. They really love you.

628
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: Should I start the paperwork And I'm like, and it's

629
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,239
Speaker 2: New York, of course, start the paperwork now. And I

630
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,479
Speaker 2: feel like that's almost like when everything shifted. I started

631
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: booking like bigger campaigns over in London, because she was like,

632
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 2: you're signing with IMG, Now I'm changing your agency. It's

633
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: clearly not working for you, but going to put you

634
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 2: with this other agency. And then from there it just

635
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 2: kind of snowballed. And here I am living my best life.

636
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: And I don't want to like embellish and say like

637
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: it's all perfect, because this pandemic and just this whole

638
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: year has been extremely hard for me in multiple ways,

639
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: you know, just being away from family, losing my job

640
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 2: for four months, not knowing if I'm ever going to

641
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: work again. So there's been a lot of ups and downs,

642
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: this here especially, So I don't want to paint it

643
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 2: that everything's like peakchy, but it is definitely a very

644
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: very lucky life. But I've definitely worked very hard to

645
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 2: get where I am today.

646
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what an incredible story and just such

647
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: an important reminder for all of us that if you

648
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: had given up a day before you got that call

649
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: for New York, you know, you just we never know

650
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: what's going to come around the corner for us, and

651
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: half the battle is just patient and persistence and putting

652
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 1: up with the shipbits because there's so often good bits

653
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: around the corner that you're just not ready for. That

654
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: you mentioned timing is everything, and we want to rush

655
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: to the end, and we want to make all the

656
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: stuff happen and be successful without doing all the really

657
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: painful stepping stones to get there. But now with hindsight

658
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: looking back, I imagine at the time all of this

659
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: was just a total headfuck and a mess and stressful

660
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: and overwhelming and scary. But now in hindsight, looking back,

661
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: you're like, it makes so much sense. Every part of

662
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: that story led to where I am now, and I

663
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: think if I went back to my younger self, that's

664
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: what I would say is trust that every part, even

665
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: the worst parts, and especially the worst parts, are just

666
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: about they're just proceeding the next big, good part. Like

667
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: that's how it all works out. So ah, that's just

668
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: so exciting. I get goosebumps thinking about how easily people

669
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: would assume that now seeing your name in the papers

670
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: making these big, you know, literal historical moments with your

671
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: career that not that long ago you didn't know if

672
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 1: you'd have a job and you were unemployed for four months,

673
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: Like that's part of the journey that doesn't get as

674
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: much airtime, and I think because of that, we think

675
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: about joy and fulfillment and happiness and even success in

676
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: a really one dimensional way, Whereas when you have these

677
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: conversations that are more than fifteen seconds on on Instagram,

678
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: you realize it's such a multidimensional picture and all of

679
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: us have to sit with uncertainty and discomfort to earn

680
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: the good bits.

681
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: You know.

682
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: I just think you're such an inspiring example of pushing

683
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: through the bits that aren't working for you and earning

684
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: the amazing like pot of gold at the end.

685
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that, because, like, I

686
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: could go into more detail about the shipbits of my life,

687
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: but I don't want to dwell on them because yes

688
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 2: they were hard, and yes they were uncomfortable, and they're

689
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: parts of my life that I kind of don't want

690
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 2: to revisit, but they have shaped me into the person

691
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: that I am today. I think too, you mentioned you know, patience,

692
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: and in this age of technology and connectedness, we want

693
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: things straight away, and we I think a lot of

694
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: us have forgotten that good things take time, and success

695
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: takes time, and success might not necessarily be you know,

696
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: the job and the money and the house and then

697
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: this and then that, and I think that's what I

698
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: learned this year. I was chasing, I guess, a version

699
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: of success that was really unsustainable for me and my

700
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 2: body and my health. And I've found success, and you know,

701
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: to other people as well. My career achievements are very

702
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: successful as well, and I don't want to take away

703
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: from that, but the material things for me are less important.

704
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 2: And I've actually found so much joy within myself because

705
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: I've taken the time to stop and really think and

706
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: do some work on me. And sitting around for four

707
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 2: months in New York during lockdown, not knowing if I'm

708
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: going to have to fly back to Australia because I've

709
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: run out of money is really hard. And not being

710
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: able to see a family. It really puts a lot

711
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: of things into perspective. And I feel like I'm really

712
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: grateful to have such strength behind me. And I think

713
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: it was the things that happened in my past that

714
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 2: allowed me to sit through this year and to come

715
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 2: out hopefully when it gets better. You know, it is

716
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: getting better. I do believe it is getting better. But

717
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 2: to come out of this year having the realizations that

718
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: I'm having and to feel quite proud of everything I've accomplished.

719
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: You absolutely should. And a quote that you I can't

720
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: remember where I heard it, but a quote of yours

721
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: that I loved is I was around that. That was

722
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: My next question was around that idea of success. And

723
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: this podcast is all about separating success and busyness from

724
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 1: fulfillment and joy. And something you said was feeding your

725
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: soul is the most important thing. And the more you've

726
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: embraced that money not being the be all and end all,

727
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: even though of course it's important. Choices and stability that

728
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: remove stress, which then leads to happiness. That changing that

729
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: focus for you, and like readjusting your metrics for yourself

730
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: has made you happier than you've ever been because you

731
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: do kind of move past that instant gratuity of success.

732
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: And when you do chase really measurable metrics like that,

733
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 1: what do you do once you get there? Like there's

734
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: nothing left if you're not enjoying the process as well.

735
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 2: So I love always chasing something. You'll never be fulfilled

736
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: if you're constantly chasing a level of success, because in

737
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: capitalism there's always more, So you'll never get to a

738
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: finite point. You'll always be chasing something, and I feel

739
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 2: like there's a lot of hollow people in this void

740
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 2: of capitalism that are just chasing, chasing, chasing, and don't

741
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: have other things around them that equate success. Yeah.

742
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: Absolutely, But I do also think I kind of had

743
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: that big realization about success not equaling happiness, and then

744
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: I maybe went too far the other way and stopped

745
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: celebrating when it was an actual success.

746
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 2: So I met too even like even this year with

747
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: Victoria's Secret, I'm like, oh, no, I can't do that, Like,

748
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: you know, I can't really celebrate, And I've just said

749
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 2: to myself, I'm like, no, you've worked really, really hard.

750
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 2: You're allowed to be joyful for all of these things

751
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: that you've worked so hard towards. This is your entire

752
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: life in the making, and you finally like got to

753
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 2: this point. Yes, you still want to do other things

754
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: in your career, but that doesn't mean you can't celebrate

755
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: what you've already got through thus far.

756
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: So yeah, well that is what I wanted to do now,

757
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: is just take a minute to appreciate. I mean, what

758
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: on earth you are actually a victorious secret model.

759
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 2: How does that even feel?

760
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: What is your brain? Even I mean, I can't even

761
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: deal with the fact that I'm talking to one, let

762
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: alone how you must feel to actually be one. So

763
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 1: what kind of like weird surreal excitement has it brought

764
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: with you? I think the campaign's actually out now, So

765
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: what did you feel like when you saw the photos? Like,

766
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: are you just yeah?

767
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 2: To be honest, I I still can't believe that I've

768
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: done it because because of COVID and because of the

769
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 2: fact that a lot of the stores and stuff were closed,

770
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: and you know, all of not that they matter, but

771
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: all of the kind of like press opportunities, and you know,

772
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 2: there might have been like brunches and like little instagrammy things.

773
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if that was going to happen, but

774
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: little things that I feel like haven't happened in the

775
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: same way that they might have pre pandemic. I've not

776
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 2: really been able to experience it. Like I went for

777
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: the first time about a month ago into one of

778
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 2: the stores in New York and I saw myself up

779
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: on the big screen, and so people were sending me

780
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 2: photos from London and from Sydney, and I was like, ah,

781
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: this is so cool. But I think, like I just

782
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 2: if five years ago when I started modeling. You were

783
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: to tell me that in five years time you will

784
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: be a Victoria's Secret model, I would have been like,

785
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: no way. I just want to be like nah, no way,

786
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 2: And here I am. And it's crazy, But I think

787
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: the really cool thing is Victoria's Secret has I feel

788
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 2: like they've changed. You know, that that old version of

789
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: Victoria's Secret that I kind of was aspiring to be

790
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: is gone. And it really embodies the kind of person

791
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: and the kind of woman and girl that I think

792
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: we should all be aspiring to be. Like the diversity

793
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: and the different body shapes, you know, that's what I

794
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 2: want to be seeing. So it's kind of really cool

795
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: that I've done it. But I've done it in the

796
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: way that I want to be represented. I've actually just

797
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: been able to be me. I've had my body. I

798
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: don't have abs. I think I've got a good body,

799
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: but I've still got like my little belly fat that

800
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: I could get rid of it if I stopped drinking wine,

801
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 2: but I'm never going to do that. But you know,

802
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: like it's really cool. I haven't had to change myself

803
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: to get these jobs. These jobs have come to me

804
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 2: because I am me, and I think that's like one

805
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 2: of the biggest things that I keep saying is that

806
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: we're also unique as human beings, and that uniqueness is

807
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: what makes us all beautiful, and being different is what

808
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 2: makes us beautiful. So when I see some of these

809
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 2: trends of people wanting to get surgeries, which by you know,

810
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 2: they're allowed, People are allowed to do whatever they want

811
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: to do with their bodies, but everyone's trying to look

812
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 2: the same. Why take away from your unique beauty to

813
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 2: look like someone else? And I think, you know, the

814
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: fashion industry is kind of it's veering backwards embracing natural beauty,

815
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: and that's exactly what I've always stood for. So yeah,

816
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: I think like I because these all of these podcast

817
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: interviews as well, I've done a series of interviews since

818
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: the campaign, and I think because they've all been so

819
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: drawn out and it hasn't all been like around the

820
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: same time like it usually probably would have pre pandemic,

821
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: I'm still I'm almost like basking in the success way

822
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 2: longer than I probably would have if if there wasn't

823
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: a pandemic, because I would have just moved on to work.

824
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: I've been flying around and been really tired and not

825
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 2: really being able to soak it in, but I'm just

826
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: in it like a few months later and you know,

827
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 2: maybe something else will come out, like you know, in January,

828
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: and I'll still be like, yeah, I did that last year.

829
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: You know.

830
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: That's the beauty of it though, that we haven't until

831
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: this year, I think, given ourselves time to let the

832
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: winds soak in, and we always rush to the next thing,

833
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: And that's such a shame because you don't get to

834
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: bask in the success. And then it's kind of like,

835
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: why did I absolutely kill myself to get there if

836
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: I wasn't even going to acknowledge it when I got there?

837
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: And honestly, like when you reflect on this day and age,

838
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: why it's so exciting is that so much is possible.

839
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: There is so much democratization of business and influence and

840
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: good ideas and travel and everything is so accessible where

841
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: it once wasn't and things are moving in a really

842
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: exciting direction. But it also means very very few people

843
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: can say that they're the first ever to do something,

844
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: and you have actually made history in being the first

845
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: to do something. How does that feel historically? Like what

846
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 1: does that mean to you to be an Australian who

847
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: has done something for the first time.

848
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 2: I feel like, because it's been framed like that, it's

849
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: really cool, Like it's really I think there have been

850
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 2: curve models that have shot for Victoria's Secret before me,

851
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 2: but to be the first Australian, especially with Australia, we

852
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: always I've grown up being like this aussy girl's just

853
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: done this, and like I'm that ouzsy girl that's done that,

854
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: Like it's really cool, and to think that I am.

855
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: I hate being like turning my own horn, but I

856
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 2: guess I am like breaking down barriers for other people

857
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 2: that look like me to chase their dreams as well.

858
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: Because I didn't come from much. I definitely had a

859
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: great childhood and a really at education, but at the

860
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 2: sacrifice of my parents. But everything that I have I've

861
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: had to work for. So nothing for me has been

862
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 2: a handout. So for me to have worked to this

863
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: point of career achievement, I'm incredibly proud of myself. And

864
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 2: it's just something that I feel like anyone can do

865
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: it if they really want to, and this is the thing,

866
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 2: not everyone, and this is the thing. I think. Then

867
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 2: it comes back to racism and trying to dismantle the

868
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 2: structures that hold certain people back. But like, if I

869
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: can do it, hopefully people will see me and think, ah,

870
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: she did that in that campaign. Let's have more diversity

871
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: in this and then that will flow onto I don't know,

872
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 2: hopefully hiring practices and education opportunities and more women doing

873
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: first of everything. Like I can't believe I'm actually going

874
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 2: to go here, but I'm going to go here. I'm

875
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: not comparing myself. I'm not in the same level as

876
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 2: her by any means. But Kamala Harris, yes you are.

877
00:46:58,880 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

878
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: I was like, she is the first woman to be

879
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: a vice president. She's not just the first, well she

880
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: is the first woman, but she's the first black woman,

881
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 2: but the first woman period. And she's also the first

882
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: woman of migrant parents. You know, those kinds of first

883
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 2: are just groundbreakingly important, and it just gives a new

884
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 2: generation the hope that they can achieve these things. If

885
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 2: we start seeing women in positions of power and status

886
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 2: and women that are breaking the rules, I guess they're

887
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: changing the rules. They're saying no, I want to change things.

888
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: You know, we're seeing all of these incredible people do

889
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 2: things for the first time that are opening doors for

890
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 2: so many other people, and we're going to grow up

891
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 2: with a new generation, which is exactly what I want,

892
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: is for a new generation of young people to grow

893
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: up with the representation that I never had, so that

894
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: they grow up less conflicted within themselves about who they

895
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: really are and their place in this world.

896
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely doing that. You're such a wonderful

897
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: role model for so many reasons, and I just love

898
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: that your success and yay has come from embracing who

899
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: you really are and stopping conforming and suppressing those parts

900
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 1: of yourself that make you sparkle. I think that's so

901
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: important because we do so easily suppress those things to

902
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: be same. But uniqueness, I think is embracing that is

903
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: the path to making you different and special. So the

904
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: last section, the middle section, is Nata, which is kind

905
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: of the barriers to joy, but I kind of think

906
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: we've weaved a lot of them into the actual story,

907
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: but I'd love to because I've obviously spent so much

908
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: time on the story because I'm so fascinated by it all.

909
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: But the last section is your playta, and that's just

910
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: the idea that because our society is, as we've discussed,

911
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: you know, so focused on instagratuity and productivity and success

912
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: and climbing ladders, and particularly when you are a first

913
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: and you're a role model, there's such a burden to

914
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: be working all the time and to be you know,

915
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: doing your activism work and constantly producing content anyway, there's

916
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: just so much pressure. But I think we're better people

917
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: when we make time for joy, even a small amount

918
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: of time. But activities that aren't productive that I like singing,

919
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, like things that make us forget what

920
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 1: time it is. How do you play? Do you make

921
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: time to just let the inner child out of the

922
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: cage and just enjoy yourself.

923
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's actually really interesting because prior to this year,

924
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: I did not make any time for play. I was

925
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: so exhausted, so burnt out. I actually started this year

926
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 2: at a wellness retreat for two weeks doing a juice

927
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 2: cleansing fast, and I came out of it lighter in

928
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 2: multiple different ways, but with a clarity of just where

929
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 2: I wanted to go this year. Lolls like about boundary

930
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 2: setting for myself. You know, I wasn't saying no, I

931
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 2: was always saying yes. I was people pleasing, not turning

932
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: down jobs, because I didn't want to upset my agents

933
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: or the clients, and at the end of the day,

934
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: I was only hurting myself and my health and my

935
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 2: mental health. And actually, I think it was like the

936
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: first two weeks of lockdown in New York and I

937
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 2: was just like, cool, So what are my hobbies? And

938
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: I was like, if I'm going to be stuck in

939
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 2: my apartment for who knows how long, what do I

940
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: actually enjoy doing? And I, you know, everyone started doing

941
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 2: these things and being almost like too productive as a

942
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 2: coping mechanism on Instagram, and I was like, okay, well,

943
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: I enjoy cooking, and so I kind of rediscovered what

944
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 2: I enjoy, and that is cooking and singing and just

945
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 2: watching really shitty movies and reality TV. Oh yes, one

946
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: of my favorite things to do is just shitty rom coms.

947
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 2: I literally, the guy I'm dating, he's like, let me

948
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 2: know when you want to watch the Christmas movie is

949
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: because I won't come over.

950
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: You did do that on your own time, but I.

951
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 2: Won't be watching that one with you. I'm like, that's fine,

952
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 2: that's fine. It's like it's my little I know, it's

953
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 2: just my little escape. And I'm a hopeless romantic and

954
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 2: most of these like rom coms are set in New York,

955
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: so I'm like, I live here now, and so I'm like,

956
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 2: maybe that'll happen to me. I kind of did it,

957
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 2: like I feel like he kind of did in a way,

958
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 2: in a ride about way. But and then like cooking,

959
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 2: I think it reminds me of my childhood because my

960
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 2: dad's a chef and we always went to the markets

961
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 2: and stuff when I was younger, and like, I watch

962
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 2: him cook on it on a weekend. So for me,

963
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 2: I've now made that kind of what I do. I

964
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: spend a couple of hours on the weekend going to

965
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 2: the farmer's market, just literally with no time frame and

966
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 2: just wandering around, and then come home and cook. And

967
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 2: I love doing that, and it's so meditative for me

968
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 2: cooking that it's just it's like a labor of love.

969
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 2: And then I love cooking for my friends and having

970
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 2: them over for dinner parties. Obviously socially distant within the guidelines.

971
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not having like twenty people over for

972
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 2: like fancy dinner parties. It's just four people at a time.

973
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, and then singing, I've really really leaned into

974
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: the fact that music brings me joy. I bought a

975
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: keyboard the start of the quarantine and I had to

976
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,720
Speaker 2: learn a song from the Sheep, like from Sheep music,

977
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: and I don't know if I will do it, if

978
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: I'll put it on my Instagram, but a part of

979
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: me says I should just do it. But you know

980
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 2: that just do it, voices like, don't that people will

981
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: judge you. But I know this song now off my heart.

982
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 2: I've learned and I can sing it, and I kind

983
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: of think I might at the end of the year

984
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 2: put it up on Instagram, be like this is my

985
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 2: quarantine baby, like yeah, And it's brought me so much

986
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 2: joy because I just work on it a little bit

987
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 2: at a time, and I think too, music has healing

988
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: properties anyway, letting out my voice like some I'm very

989
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: vocal anyway, So being able to let go just in

990
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: my apartment and seeing and do whatever and kind of

991
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 2: figure out what works, you get frustrated and come back

992
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 2: to it. It's actually been Yeah, it's been really great.

993
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: And it's something that I would never have had time

994
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 2: for if it wasn't for this pandemic. And it's kind

995
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 2: of like the good things that have come out of

996
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 2: this time. There's definitely been a lot of bad things

997
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 2: that I definitely don't want to diminish them, because the

998
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 2: loss of human life has just been absolutely devastating. But

999
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 2: for me, I've managed to find some really joyful things

1000
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 2: in this time, and I'm happy that I found them.

1001
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. I think it's I think that's the

1002
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: big thing about adversity and tragedy is that it will

1003
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: always be there. It will always be in life. It's

1004
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: part of life and important to acknowledge the gravity of

1005
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 1: times like these, But it doesn't mean that the whole

1006
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: world has to have no joy all year. There are

1007
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 1: still silver linings to be found in the small moments

1008
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: in the day to day. And I think a lot

1009
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: of people have found hobbies that they or even just

1010
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 1: found a hobby, Like forgot that we used to do

1011
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: things for leisure, whereas I think we'd fallen into this

1012
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: vicious cycle of work to sleep, to sleep to work,

1013
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: and like that is just not the point of being

1014
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: on this beautiful earth, you.

1015
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, and then turning your hobby into a hustle.

1016
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 2: I know, how can I monetize this? Like I'm gonna

1017
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 2: be a singer.

1018
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: Well, second last question, just to finish up, what are

1019
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: three interesting things about you that don't normally come up

1020
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: in conversation?

1021
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 2: Ooh, I had I had received this question in facts

1022
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: and I had thought about it, and I now when

1023
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,800
Speaker 2: I'm asked it, I have no idea, but I guess

1024
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,320
Speaker 2: things that come up don't come up in conversation. I

1025
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: think the fact that I do speak French, well, we

1026
00:54:55,160 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 2: see so novous. So when I speak French, because I'm

1027
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 2: a perfectionist and I would meet other not speak French

1028
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 2: with mistakes, then like speak it with mistakes. So I

1029
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 2: just don't really progress. And I think that's like it's

1030
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 2: a lot of it's my whole life, you know. I

1031
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 2: don't want to ever put out anything if it's not perfect.

1032
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: And oh, I hear, but okay, So what's another thing. Yeah,

1033
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:22,399
Speaker 2: not many people know that I did in musical theater.

1034
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 2: I think that's like a thing. It is actually a thing.

1035
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: And then you'll get to you'll get to see me

1036
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: on set. That's when you'll see me on set, and

1037
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 2: then you'll be like, I can say that you did

1038
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 2: musicals here.

1039
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: What's your favorite role to play?

1040
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: So I would love I would love to be in Wicked.

1041
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 2: It's like one of my favorites and I'm just obsessed

1042
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 2: the other one is. And this I think is interesting

1043
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 2: that I'm actually really shy, well really really shy, but

1044
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 2: I get very anxious in social situations.

1045
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: I have found I'm an extreme extrovert in some scenarios.

1046
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: But now that I've let my introvert out all year,

1047
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: the first time I had to go out and see people,

1048
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 1: I was like, I can't, no, no, we're not doing this.

1049
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 2: I actually really like that we have to wear masks

1050
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 2: everywhere so I don't have to like engage. Bye, I

1051
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 2: just don't. Yeah, I think unless I know you, and

1052
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,720
Speaker 2: like I've had a relationship in friendship and stuff whatever,

1053
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 2: I'm really I'm really loud with all my friends, but

1054
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 2: I don't know you. The first time, I get quite

1055
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 2: like standoff fish and shine. It comes across as really rude.

1056
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,479
Speaker 2: I've been told that I'm really rude when you first

1057
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 2: meet me, but it's because I'm really anxious and I

1058
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 2: don't want to make eye contact and I'm like high

1059
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 2: heck kind of handshake, eye down, kind of just this

1060
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 2: weird like hello, wow.

1061
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: So interesting for a performing arts kid.

1062
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think I think that's just that's probably

1063
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 2: just anxiety, not actually being shy. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, well.

1064
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: That's a fun fact. Very last question, what's your favorite quote?

1065
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 2: So it's not really like a quote as much as

1066
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 2: I actually had to screenshot it because I would not

1067
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 2: have remembered it off the top of my head, But

1068
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 2: it's actually a poem by Rupicor and it is it

1069
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 2: is a blessing to be the color of earth. Do

1070
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 2: you know how often flowers confuse me for home? Ah?

1071
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: That is so beautiful.

1072
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 2: I kind of tear up every time I read it

1073
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 2: because I'm just like, yeah, it is a blessing. It

1074
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 2: is a blessing to be me, to be this color,

1075
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 2: like to just exist, and it's just a really beautiful

1076
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: reminder that you know you're perfect as you are.

1077
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: Oh, Jennifer, that is such a beautiful way to finish.

1078
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining and especially for leaving

1079
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: us with all the pearls of wisdomies you've already shared.

1080
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: But I love quotes so much. I have like one

1081
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: thousand million. I have two quote books that I've produced,

1082
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: and I've never heard that one before, which is a

1083
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 1: big challenge. So there's your second first in the world

1084
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: that you are.

1085
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, no worries, thank you.

1086
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: Oh what an uplifting and joyful way to finish off

1087
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: a crazy year. Congratulations to all of you on making

1088
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: it through, and I hope you can really take some

1089
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: time to clear the slate and prepare for a bigger

1090
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: and brighter twenty twenty one. Thank you to each and

1091
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: every one of you for being part of the neighborhood

1092
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: and keeping it thriving this year. It's brought so much

1093
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 1: joy and encouragement to me and I hope to some

1094
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,919
Speaker 1: of you too. I'll be taking a few weeks off

1095
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: to regroup and rejuvenate, but will, as I mentioned, re

1096
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: release a fusingers during that time, then come back with

1097
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: a bang next year. In the meantime, though, I would

1098
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: love to get your thoughts and suggestions while I'm planning

1099
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: at the twenty time twenty one schedule, so there's a

1100
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: quick survey or serve ya online. If you have any

1101
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: words for us, please please send them my way so

1102
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: that we can gather any thoughts you might have and

1103
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:13,919
Speaker 1: make sure that we're giving you exactly what you want

1104
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 1: next year. Link is in the show notes. Now have

1105
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: a fabulous festive season and wonderful new year. I hope

1106
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: you're seizing your yay