WEBVTT - "What REALLY Happened When I Confronted Belle Gibson" 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a Mom and Mia podcast. 0:00:13.885 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:19.885 that this podcast is recorded on Hey, No Filter listeners. 0:00:19.925 --> 0:00:23.205 I'm Gemma, the host of True Crime Conversations, and today 0:00:23.285 --> 0:00:25.965 I'm bringing you an episode from our podcast that we 0:00:26.005 --> 0:00:29.085 think you'll really enjoy. In this one, I chat with 0:00:29.165 --> 0:00:32.805 Chanelle mccauliffe, who used to be the best friend of 0:00:32.885 --> 0:00:36.885 Belle Gibson, the woman who falsely claimed she had cancer 0:00:36.925 --> 0:00:40.325 and said she cured it with natural remedies. Chanell is 0:00:40.325 --> 0:00:42.525 the one who blew the whistle on Bell going to 0:00:42.565 --> 0:00:45.645 the media, including the journalists at the Age who later 0:00:45.685 --> 0:00:48.725 wrote a book about the whole story. You might have 0:00:48.805 --> 0:00:51.645 seen the series Apple Cider Vinegar, which is based on 0:00:51.765 --> 0:00:55.285 that book. Chanelle shares her thoughts with me on whether 0:00:55.325 --> 0:00:58.885 the show really captures what happened after forcing herself to 0:00:58.885 --> 0:01:01.085 watch it, and she takes us back to when Bell 0:01:01.325 --> 0:01:05.205 was a huge influencer and she started to realize that 0:01:05.325 --> 0:01:07.965 everything was a lie. Give it a listen. Kate will 0:01:07.965 --> 0:01:12.725 be back next week with another No Filter interview. It's 0:01:12.725 --> 0:01:16.605 early twenty fifteen and single mum and entrepreneur Bell Gibson 0:01:16.725 --> 0:01:19.925 is living a life of luxury and success. She has 0:01:19.965 --> 0:01:23.405 a widely popular recipe app called The Whole Pantry, which 0:01:23.445 --> 0:01:27.965 features nourishing, plant based recipes, and she's preparing to release 0:01:28.005 --> 0:01:31.405 a book of the same name. Last year, she was 0:01:31.525 --> 0:01:35.605 named Elle Magazine's Most Aspiring Woman You've Met this Year 0:01:36.165 --> 0:01:40.565 and was Cosmo Magazine's Fun Fearless Female Recipient. Her app 0:01:40.645 --> 0:01:43.565 claimed the Apple title of Best Food and Drink App 0:01:43.605 --> 0:01:47.085 of twenty thirteen, and a few short years later, she's 0:01:47.125 --> 0:01:51.965 already enjoying over one million in sales. Her empire is 0:01:52.045 --> 0:01:56.285 built on an inspiring story of triumph, a harrowing and 0:01:56.445 --> 0:02:01.045 heartwarming story of survival. She first started posting about her 0:02:01.085 --> 0:02:05.605 malignant brain cancer on Instagram in twenty thirteen. Diagnosed in 0:02:05.605 --> 0:02:08.205 two thousand and nine at the age of twenty, she 0:02:08.325 --> 0:02:11.765 was given just four months to live. Instead of doing 0:02:11.805 --> 0:02:17.965 the usual chemotherapy and radiation treatments, Belle opted for alternative remedies, and, 0:02:18.045 --> 0:02:21.165 as she shared with her growing fan base, they worked, 0:02:22.045 --> 0:02:26.165 they healed her. She spoke of a healthy diet free 0:02:26.285 --> 0:02:30.405 of gluten and sugar, of salt, vitamin and oxygen treatments, 0:02:31.125 --> 0:02:35.045 of the power of colonics, and the benefits of Arabatic medicine, 0:02:35.645 --> 0:02:40.605 an ancient Indian holistic healing system. She encouraged her hundreds 0:02:40.645 --> 0:02:44.725 of thousands of followers to empower themselves and reclaim their 0:02:44.725 --> 0:02:49.765 lives through wellness, to heal themselves like she did naturally. 0:02:51.165 --> 0:02:55.165 But it was all a lie, all of it, and 0:02:55.205 --> 0:02:58.525 it was one of her close friends who first cottoned 0:02:58.525 --> 0:03:08.605 on to the truth. I'm Jemma Bath and this is 0:03:08.685 --> 0:03:12.965 True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's 0:03:13.005 --> 0:03:16.165 most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know 0:03:16.285 --> 0:03:19.445 the most about them. A brand new series has just 0:03:19.565 --> 0:03:20.645 dropped on Netflix. 0:03:21.965 --> 0:03:25.085 I was diagnosed with a Stage four brain shiver. 0:03:26.125 --> 0:03:30.165 That was four years ago. Human beings are capable of anything. 0:03:32.525 --> 0:03:36.685 I was un a quest feel myself naturally. I first 0:03:36.845 --> 0:03:38.805 seek out was raw and honest. 0:03:39.685 --> 0:03:44.565 Appleside of Vinegar follows the story of Belle Gibson's success, lies, 0:03:44.765 --> 0:03:48.245 and demise and right now it's the TV show everyone's 0:03:48.285 --> 0:03:52.365 talking about. Her unraveling started because of a suspicious friend. 0:03:52.845 --> 0:03:55.605 For Chanelle mccauloff, there were certain parts of her story 0:03:55.645 --> 0:03:59.925 that weren't adding up, certain incidents and symptoms that raised 0:03:59.925 --> 0:04:04.805 her eyebrow. Eventually, it would be Chanelle that would first 0:04:04.845 --> 0:04:08.565 confront the conwoman. She was the whistleblower that brought down 0:04:08.605 --> 0:04:10.845 her web of line and uncovered the damage she was 0:04:10.885 --> 0:04:14.685 doing to sick, vulnerable people. In Apple Side Vinegar, the 0:04:14.765 --> 0:04:18.125 character of Chanelle looks a little bit different to real life. 0:04:18.165 --> 0:04:21.685 In real life, Chanelle had no relationship with jess Ainsco, 0:04:22.205 --> 0:04:26.325 another wellness influencer who was actually living with cancer whose 0:04:26.365 --> 0:04:29.045 story is best represented by the character of Miller in 0:04:29.085 --> 0:04:32.445 the show. She wasn't working for Bell, just a friend 0:04:32.525 --> 0:04:35.925 of Belle's, but she is the one who confronted her 0:04:35.965 --> 0:04:39.765 in her house and went to the media. As Belle's 0:04:39.765 --> 0:04:43.485 story is once again thrust before an international audience, we 0:04:43.565 --> 0:04:49.485 got the chance to speak to Chanelle. Chanelle Bell Gibson's 0:04:49.565 --> 0:04:53.565 name is once again everywhere. It's making headlines because there's 0:04:53.565 --> 0:04:57.405 a Netflix series out about her life and her crimes. 0:04:58.365 --> 0:04:59.125 Have you watched it? 0:05:00.405 --> 0:05:02.965 I have seen the show. I did have to force 0:05:03.045 --> 0:05:07.325 myself to watch it. I'm overall I'm not entirely a 0:05:07.445 --> 0:05:10.085 huge fan of the show for an un of reasons 0:05:10.125 --> 0:05:13.325 that we can chat about if you like. But yes, 0:05:13.605 --> 0:05:16.765 it seems to be a very big story in the 0:05:16.805 --> 0:05:17.925 media right now. 0:05:18.125 --> 0:05:21.565 So Originally you weren't going to watch it, were you? 0:05:21.605 --> 0:05:26.725 No, I wasn't. I'm not entirely comfortable with dramatization and 0:05:26.925 --> 0:05:32.605 sensationalization of the story. The show has distorted the truth 0:05:33.085 --> 0:05:36.765 a little bit as well, and I'm not that comfortable 0:05:36.805 --> 0:05:41.405 with the capitalization of the harm that was caused to 0:05:41.445 --> 0:05:45.565 people with cancer. So yeah, there's obviously Netflix and a 0:05:45.605 --> 0:05:50.405 film studio and people profiting from that harm that was caused. 0:05:50.765 --> 0:05:53.485 I've sort of been thinking a lot about the ethics 0:05:53.805 --> 0:05:57.325 behind this kind of storytelling on that platform. 0:05:58.045 --> 0:05:59.725 I'm not entirely comfortable with. 0:05:59.685 --> 0:06:04.005 The way that these two characters Beal and Miller, who 0:06:04.365 --> 0:06:07.645 Miller is based on a real life person, jess Ainsco, 0:06:07.725 --> 0:06:10.845 who actually did have cancer and was trying to heal 0:06:10.885 --> 0:06:15.925 her accouncer naturally through wellness and natural remedies. They've pitted 0:06:15.925 --> 0:06:19.245 these two women against each other in the show, which 0:06:19.325 --> 0:06:22.925 actually didn't occur in real life, and I think it's 0:06:23.485 --> 0:06:30.765 quite a cliche, unoriginal, stereotypical narrative to kind of pit 0:06:31.045 --> 0:06:37.205 women against each other competitively as rivals, bitchy, gossipy, which 0:06:37.245 --> 0:06:40.565 is kind of what was depicted in the show. I 0:06:40.605 --> 0:06:42.965 just think it was really unnecessary, and I hope that 0:06:43.325 --> 0:06:47.485 the core messages that are really important about this story, 0:06:47.645 --> 0:06:49.965 about the harm that was cause to people, about how 0:06:50.005 --> 0:06:55.165 we can easily be misled or consume misinformation online. I 0:06:55.245 --> 0:06:58.565 just hope that those important messages aren't lost through the 0:06:58.565 --> 0:07:00.285 glamorization of this show. 0:07:00.925 --> 0:07:03.645 What about your character in the show, because they use 0:07:03.725 --> 0:07:07.485 your name, but your character is kind of an amalgamation 0:07:07.645 --> 0:07:10.765 of you and you know other people in Bell's life. 0:07:10.845 --> 0:07:12.805 How did you feel about the way they portrayed you. 0:07:14.605 --> 0:07:19.165 I actually was pleasantly surprised how my character was portrayed. 0:07:19.285 --> 0:07:21.765 I had no idea what they were going to do 0:07:21.845 --> 0:07:24.245 with it. I mean, obviously there's many things about my 0:07:24.325 --> 0:07:27.685 character and in the show that aren't accurate. For example, 0:07:27.725 --> 0:07:32.485 I wasn't Bell's manager or jess ains Co's manager Miller's character. 0:07:32.965 --> 0:07:38.645 I did know jess ains Co, but we weren't close friends. However, 0:07:39.485 --> 0:07:43.965 the scenes where I confront Bell, which is now dubbed 0:07:44.005 --> 0:07:47.405 the intervention, where I am urging her to come forward 0:07:47.565 --> 0:07:50.445 and tell the truth, there was a lot of main 0:07:50.485 --> 0:07:54.125 parts of that scene that were really accurate, and I 0:07:54.165 --> 0:07:56.565 found that scene to be really compelling, and I think 0:07:56.965 --> 0:08:00.805 it's really important for me for the world to see 0:08:00.845 --> 0:08:04.605 that I did urge Bell to come forward and tell 0:08:04.645 --> 0:08:07.845 the truth. I never set out to expose Bell to 0:08:07.925 --> 0:08:11.685 have Bell canceled. I actually went to her as her 0:08:11.685 --> 0:08:14.805 friend and said, if you come forward and tell the truth, 0:08:14.845 --> 0:08:17.565 I will help you. I'll support you with the fallout. 0:08:18.245 --> 0:08:21.685 And she refused to and had she done that, things 0:08:21.725 --> 0:08:24.125 could have played out so much differently for her. 0:08:24.765 --> 0:08:26.365 I want to go back to the start of your 0:08:26.405 --> 0:08:30.525 story because it is quite different to the Netflix show. 0:08:31.845 --> 0:08:34.765 Tell us about how you met Belle Sure. 0:08:35.325 --> 0:08:38.005 So, I was actually doing a writing internship for a 0:08:38.005 --> 0:08:41.445 publication in Melbourne at the time, and they were more 0:08:41.485 --> 0:08:44.325 just interested in doing a puff piece on her. It 0:08:44.445 --> 0:08:47.365 was we were kind of interested in what she was 0:08:47.365 --> 0:08:51.645 doing with food and technology and being innovative and this kind. 0:08:51.565 --> 0:08:55.165 Of startup space. So I reached out to her. 0:08:55.245 --> 0:08:58.725 And she invited me to the launch event of the 0:08:58.765 --> 0:09:02.965 Whole Pantry app and that night it was quite difficult 0:09:03.045 --> 0:09:05.885 for us to connect and chat. She was hosting the event. 0:09:06.165 --> 0:09:09.445 There's so many people there and so she's talking a 0:09:09.485 --> 0:09:12.925 lot of people. We just briefly kind of introduced ourselves, 0:09:13.005 --> 0:09:16.965 and then after that event we met up for I 0:09:16.965 --> 0:09:21.205 think coffee, and it was really difficult to kind of 0:09:21.525 --> 0:09:24.325 get any information out of her, and so I just 0:09:24.445 --> 0:09:27.205 thought I'll just build a bit of rupperhor with her. 0:09:27.445 --> 0:09:30.125 It turned out we had some mutual friends. So then 0:09:30.165 --> 0:09:33.325 we went for coffee again and then lunch and dinner, 0:09:33.445 --> 0:09:39.245 and we were at similar events together and naturally just 0:09:39.485 --> 0:09:41.405 a friendship formed from them. 0:09:42.445 --> 0:09:46.565 What did being friends with Bell look like? Was it 0:09:46.925 --> 0:09:49.605 constant messaging? Was it hanging out all the time? Was 0:09:49.605 --> 0:09:50.365 she a good friend? 0:09:52.085 --> 0:09:57.325 Belle was really warm and charismatic. She actually had a 0:09:57.365 --> 0:10:01.045 way of making you feel really special, and looking back, 0:10:01.885 --> 0:10:06.165 I think this was part of kind of it was 0:10:06.245 --> 0:10:09.725 quite calculated on her behalf, because she had to flecked 0:10:09.805 --> 0:10:13.685 from herself so much, and if you've seen interviews with her, 0:10:13.805 --> 0:10:16.925 especially this sixty minutes interviewer in the show, it's very 0:10:16.965 --> 0:10:20.165 difficult to get a straight answer from her. So she 0:10:20.885 --> 0:10:24.325 had a way of really making the attention about the 0:10:24.405 --> 0:10:28.645 other person. So you always felt really kind of special 0:10:29.005 --> 0:10:33.645 and important in her presence. Our friendship looked like going 0:10:33.645 --> 0:10:36.725 out for lunch. It sentered a lot around food. And 0:10:36.765 --> 0:10:40.765 what was quite interesting is my partner at the time 0:10:41.365 --> 0:10:45.965 actually had a traumatic brain injury and Beao really connected 0:10:46.005 --> 0:10:49.405 with him and developed a really close friendship with him 0:10:49.565 --> 0:10:54.925 because she claimed that because of her brain tumor. That 0:10:55.045 --> 0:10:57.645 also meant she had a traumatic brain injury as a 0:10:57.685 --> 0:11:01.685 result of the brain tumor. What we've now learnt about 0:11:01.765 --> 0:11:06.565 Bell is that she gravitated to people, especially you know, 0:11:06.605 --> 0:11:11.005 people with cancer, to leverage them to her own advantage, 0:11:11.005 --> 0:11:13.325 to learn about their symptoms and take them on as 0:11:13.365 --> 0:11:13.765 her own. 0:11:14.445 --> 0:11:17.485 So she was actually doing that with my partner at 0:11:17.485 --> 0:11:17.885 the time. 0:11:18.005 --> 0:11:22.485 However, you know, I wasn't aware of that, and so yes, 0:11:22.565 --> 0:11:27.125 they they had a close friendship and and out friendship 0:11:27.205 --> 0:11:29.365 circle kind of just grew as well from there. 0:11:29.925 --> 0:11:31.965 What did you think of her success about the whole 0:11:32.005 --> 0:11:34.605 pantry and everything she was doing in that space. 0:11:36.645 --> 0:11:39.205 I was quite impressed by the business she was building. 0:11:39.645 --> 0:11:43.885 She was quite innovative for that era. It was really 0:11:44.085 --> 0:11:49.205 early days of social media, especially Instagram, building an audience, 0:11:49.285 --> 0:11:54.845 connecting with an audience, getting on the Apple Watch. So 0:11:55.765 --> 0:11:58.765 that was compelling to me at the time. This, you know, 0:11:58.845 --> 0:12:01.845 regardless if she was sick or not, this young woman, 0:12:02.285 --> 0:12:07.205 this young single mother, pioneering you know, this this technology 0:12:07.325 --> 0:12:08.565 and this business. 0:12:09.085 --> 0:12:12.285 So that was that side of it was compelling at 0:12:12.285 --> 0:12:12.605 the time. 0:12:13.325 --> 0:12:17.085 When did you start getting a weird feeling? What were 0:12:17.125 --> 0:12:19.085 the first things that kind of struck you as odd? 0:12:20.525 --> 0:12:24.165 So behind the scenes, there would be things like we 0:12:24.285 --> 0:12:28.165 would go out drinking and one night, you know, she 0:12:28.325 --> 0:12:31.245 ordered shots and we were doing shots, and I said, oh, 0:12:31.845 --> 0:12:34.005 should you really be drinking? Like, you know, she was 0:12:34.045 --> 0:12:40.045 obviously doing this very strict wellness natural protocol to heal 0:12:40.085 --> 0:12:45.165 herself from cancer, so drinking alcohol excessively was kind of 0:12:45.445 --> 0:12:48.245 really in conflict of that. So I said, you know, 0:12:48.245 --> 0:12:50.365 should you be drinking? And she said, well, I'm going 0:12:50.445 --> 0:12:53.925 to die anyway, so why not have some fun. And 0:12:53.965 --> 0:12:56.645 then there was a time where she also went to 0:12:56.685 --> 0:12:59.525 the solarium, which I thought was a bit odd given 0:12:59.885 --> 0:13:04.485 the risk of skin cancer with using selarium. And then 0:13:04.725 --> 0:13:08.645 the biggest thing for me, well, apart from that, she 0:13:08.725 --> 0:13:12.245 never appeared sick ever, never saw her sick. 0:13:12.285 --> 0:13:15.645 She was the epitome of wellness right. 0:13:15.765 --> 0:13:20.845 She this beautiful, long, lush hair, She was glowing, she 0:13:20.925 --> 0:13:28.005 was active, happy, and then at her son's fourth birthday party, 0:13:29.405 --> 0:13:33.445 she all of a sudden collapsed to the floor and 0:13:34.005 --> 0:13:37.325 was having what appeared to be quite a violent seizure. 0:13:37.405 --> 0:13:40.485 She was convulsing on the ground, saliva was coming out 0:13:40.525 --> 0:13:43.605 of her mouth, and this went on for a really 0:13:43.685 --> 0:13:50.645 long time, about forty minutes, and about halfway through, I said, 0:13:50.685 --> 0:13:53.365 I'm calling an ambulance, and all of a sudden she 0:13:53.485 --> 0:13:56.525 kind of comes out of the seizure and says, no, 0:13:57.445 --> 0:14:01.045 I don't want Western medicine involved, and so I said, okay, 0:14:01.485 --> 0:14:03.925 and then she kind of went back into the seizure 0:14:04.005 --> 0:14:06.605 and then it kind of tape it off, And there 0:14:06.685 --> 0:14:10.525 was just something about it that just seems really performative 0:14:11.045 --> 0:14:15.485 to me. And yeah, it was that day I left 0:14:15.525 --> 0:14:19.245 that party that I just knew in my gut that 0:14:19.325 --> 0:14:20.365 something was really wrong. 0:14:20.965 --> 0:14:23.685 Well, if I'm not mistaken, it was soon after that 0:14:23.765 --> 0:14:28.085 birthday that she announced that her cancer was spreading. But 0:14:28.165 --> 0:14:29.325 how did you find out about that? 0:14:30.685 --> 0:14:35.205 Yes, so she announced on Instagram that she now had 0:14:35.285 --> 0:14:39.445 stage four cancer. It had spread from her brain to spleen, 0:14:39.525 --> 0:14:43.085 her uterus, in her blood. It was basically a death sentence, 0:14:43.285 --> 0:14:46.965 and myself and most of her close friends we all 0:14:47.005 --> 0:14:52.165 found out by seeing it on her Instagram, which you know, 0:14:52.285 --> 0:14:55.925 it was we thought was quite odd that that's such 0:14:56.165 --> 0:15:01.645 serious diagnosis, and you know, we were all so you know, 0:15:02.125 --> 0:15:06.685 caring for her and concerned about her. So, yeah, it 0:15:06.765 --> 0:15:10.085 was really strange that it wasn't some think that she 0:15:10.205 --> 0:15:12.885 shared with anyone really directly. 0:15:13.205 --> 0:15:16.085 It was just it was just kind of a press announcement. 0:15:16.805 --> 0:15:20.045 Once you had this hunch, it's a big leap to 0:15:20.085 --> 0:15:22.605 go from like having a feeling that something's not quite 0:15:22.685 --> 0:15:28.405 right to actually like talking to someone about it. Did 0:15:28.445 --> 0:15:31.285 you kind of mention it to friends and family, try 0:15:31.285 --> 0:15:34.125 and get some other people involved in how you're feeling. 0:15:34.845 --> 0:15:38.325 Yes, I did go to one of our mutual friends 0:15:38.685 --> 0:15:42.845 and I shared my concerns with him what I thought 0:15:43.445 --> 0:15:46.365 regret flags and why things didn't add up for me. 0:15:47.045 --> 0:15:51.125 And he started to see that, yeah, okay. 0:15:51.765 --> 0:15:55.005 Some of this doesn't make sense. So I asked him 0:15:55.005 --> 0:15:59.365 if he would come with me to basically hold an 0:15:59.365 --> 0:16:02.805 intervention and kind of confront Beow and try and get 0:16:02.805 --> 0:16:07.365 some answers from her. So he agreed to do that, 0:16:07.605 --> 0:16:12.685 and we went over to bal house unannounced, and we 0:16:12.725 --> 0:16:15.085 sat her down and I just straight. 0:16:14.805 --> 0:16:17.565 Out asked her if she had. 0:16:17.445 --> 0:16:25.245 Cancer and what did she say. She was acting kind 0:16:25.325 --> 0:16:30.085 of very defensive. She was saying that I was interrogating her. 0:16:30.965 --> 0:16:33.965 She started to slump down in her chair and say 0:16:34.005 --> 0:16:36.605 that she felt sick and was acting kind of faint, 0:16:37.525 --> 0:16:41.045 which at that point I kind of knew was based 0:16:41.445 --> 0:16:45.205 on having scene the seizure. I kind of knew that 0:16:45.285 --> 0:16:48.325 maybe this was another tactic of hers to all of 0:16:48.365 --> 0:16:50.765 a sudden, you know, act sick or as a way 0:16:50.805 --> 0:16:54.365 to deflect. She said that of course she was sick. 0:16:55.285 --> 0:17:00.725 I basically demanded her to go get any medical evidence 0:17:01.005 --> 0:17:04.445 to prove that she had cancer, any scanned, any hospital, 0:17:04.605 --> 0:17:07.845 doctor reports. She said that she didn't like to keep 0:17:07.885 --> 0:17:11.805 those documents because it's negative energy in her house. And 0:17:11.845 --> 0:17:15.565 so I asked her about this stage four diagnosis that 0:17:15.685 --> 0:17:18.205 she had just announced, and I said, what hospital did 0:17:18.245 --> 0:17:21.445 you go to to get that diagnosis? You know, I'm 0:17:21.485 --> 0:17:25.885 sure that it was a major hospital in Melbourne. And 0:17:25.965 --> 0:17:28.285 she said she didn't go to a hospital. She went 0:17:28.325 --> 0:17:31.605 to some random doctor's house in the suburbs. He picked 0:17:31.605 --> 0:17:35.605 her up and drove her there and gave her the diagnosis. 0:17:35.845 --> 0:17:39.365 And I asked her who was that doctor? What's his name? 0:17:39.445 --> 0:17:44.205 And she said doctor Phil And at that point I 0:17:45.005 --> 0:17:48.485 actually thought it was so comical that the story was 0:17:48.845 --> 0:17:56.085 her story was that ridiculous and that so unplausible. So yeah, 0:17:56.125 --> 0:18:02.685 doctor Phil just had me stumped. And so I said, 0:18:02.685 --> 0:18:05.845 if you've not had a proper diagnosis at a hospital 0:18:05.845 --> 0:18:10.045 in some random house by this doctor you know, does 0:18:10.085 --> 0:18:14.685 that mean your diagnosis is questionable? And she said, well, 0:18:15.325 --> 0:18:19.245 possibly because doctor Phil's gone missing. He's gone to ground, 0:18:20.885 --> 0:18:24.685 and none of his colleagues know where he is. And 0:18:24.765 --> 0:18:30.005 so obviously that all just sounded even more suspicious and unbelievable. 0:18:31.165 --> 0:18:36.525 So at this point she called Julie Gibbs, their editor 0:18:36.765 --> 0:18:41.525 publisher at Penguin Books. And she's set asking Julie or 0:18:41.565 --> 0:18:45.645 accusing Julie of speaking to her friends, and one of 0:18:45.685 --> 0:18:48.685 her friends is jealous and accusing her of not being sick, 0:18:48.725 --> 0:18:52.765 And did Julie put me up to this basically? And 0:18:52.805 --> 0:18:54.165 from what I could tell. 0:18:54.805 --> 0:18:57.525 Julie must have. I think Julie seemed really confused on the. 0:18:57.565 --> 0:19:01.645 End the other end of the phone. Well, then called 0:19:01.685 --> 0:19:05.965 someone else. She phoned her acupuncturist and asked him to 0:19:06.005 --> 0:19:11.165 come over, and when he arrived, she said to him, 0:19:11.725 --> 0:19:14.485 tell them that I have cancer. And this was kind 0:19:14.485 --> 0:19:17.005 of her way to basically prove to us that she 0:19:17.125 --> 0:19:20.565 had cancer. And he said, well, of course you have cancer, 0:19:21.365 --> 0:19:22.725 And I said, well, how do you know that she 0:19:22.805 --> 0:19:25.925 has cancer, and he said, because she told me so. 0:19:25.965 --> 0:19:28.525 It doesn't sound like it was a short conversation. It 0:19:28.645 --> 0:19:31.205 was over a few hours or so if you had 0:19:31.205 --> 0:19:33.045 all these different phone calls and visitors. 0:19:33.085 --> 0:19:36.005 And yes, it was quite a few hours. I mean 0:19:36.085 --> 0:19:41.325 it seemed like forever at the time. I also went 0:19:41.405 --> 0:19:44.845 upstairs at her house to try and find Clive, her partner, 0:19:45.005 --> 0:19:50.645 who was somewhat involved in her business and the whole pantry. 0:19:51.365 --> 0:19:55.525 And Clive was someone who was kind of really difficult 0:19:55.565 --> 0:19:58.365 to figure out. He was kind of always in the background. 0:19:58.925 --> 0:20:04.005 He was quite withdrawn, very quiet. So I went upstairs 0:20:04.045 --> 0:20:07.365 and I found Clive and I said, Clive, you need 0:20:07.405 --> 0:20:11.605 to tell me the truth. And he said she would 0:20:11.645 --> 0:20:17.005 destroy anyone that tries to expose her, and that he 0:20:17.085 --> 0:20:20.925 needs to protect her little boy. So it was kind 0:20:20.965 --> 0:20:25.405 of a very cryptic, confronting answer I got from him. 0:20:25.685 --> 0:20:29.005 He then came downstairs with me and he sat down 0:20:29.005 --> 0:20:31.965 with us and we were trying to make sense of 0:20:32.005 --> 0:20:36.285 it all, and it kind of the penny didn't drop 0:20:36.525 --> 0:20:38.125 for me until a little bit later on. 0:20:38.205 --> 0:20:39.525 But he made a comment that. 0:20:39.525 --> 0:20:43.085 Night because I did did say to Bell, which you 0:20:43.125 --> 0:20:46.565 can see in the show I said to her, this 0:20:46.605 --> 0:20:48.445 is your inner circle knocking. 0:20:48.125 --> 0:20:50.965 At your door. This is where it starts. 0:20:50.565 --> 0:20:54.245 And this is where it can end, and urging her 0:20:54.685 --> 0:20:57.725 to come forward on her own terms and tell the truth. 0:20:58.605 --> 0:21:02.125 And at that point when I was saying that, Clive 0:21:02.845 --> 0:21:06.285 said to Bell Belle, you need to get the books 0:21:06.325 --> 0:21:10.205 in order. And I think what that's meant later on 0:21:11.005 --> 0:21:14.445 was in regards to the charity fraud that that Belle 0:21:14.605 --> 0:21:18.365 was conducting. So the books for her business, you know, 0:21:18.405 --> 0:21:20.965 weren't in order. She needed to kind of start covering 0:21:21.005 --> 0:21:25.405 her tracks or start paying the charities. So he was 0:21:25.485 --> 0:21:28.805 kind of hinting to Bowl and basically just just putting 0:21:28.845 --> 0:21:31.005 it out there that she needed to. 0:21:31.005 --> 0:21:32.165 Tie up loose ends. 0:21:32.965 --> 0:21:40.525 So I left that night just being absolutely gobsmacked that 0:21:41.365 --> 0:21:43.925 it just had confirmed everything for me. 0:21:43.925 --> 0:21:45.725 That it was all a lie. 0:21:46.365 --> 0:21:50.245 There was there was at times for me where there 0:21:50.285 --> 0:21:51.605 was one percent of me that. 0:21:52.405 --> 0:21:54.205 Felt what if I've got this all wrong? 0:21:54.685 --> 0:21:59.325 What if I'm accusing this poor young woman of not 0:21:59.365 --> 0:22:02.045 having cancel when she really does. But that night it 0:22:02.205 --> 0:22:07.685 just solidified everything for me. And so I left there 0:22:07.845 --> 0:22:11.805 urging Bell again to to come forward and tell the truth. 0:22:12.045 --> 0:22:16.125 And then a few days later I called her and 0:22:16.165 --> 0:22:18.245 I asked her if she was ready to come forward, 0:22:19.245 --> 0:22:24.285 and again I was met with defensiveness, some aggression. And 0:22:24.285 --> 0:22:26.565 then it was maybe a week or a couple of 0:22:26.565 --> 0:22:30.445 weeks after that, it was her book launch, and we 0:22:31.245 --> 0:22:33.765 actually weren't really obviously. 0:22:34.805 --> 0:22:37.525 Kind of friends anymore at this point on talking terms. 0:22:37.525 --> 0:22:38.485 There was a lot of tension. 0:22:39.285 --> 0:22:41.685 She knew that I knew, but I still rocked up 0:22:41.725 --> 0:22:44.005 to her book launch, and as you'll see in the show, 0:22:44.285 --> 0:22:47.885 I stood there in the crowd and just really stared 0:22:47.885 --> 0:22:51.485 at her and just made a point of you know 0:22:51.605 --> 0:22:54.085 that there's someone here that knows and is going to 0:22:54.165 --> 0:22:58.885 hold you accountable. And the book launch, yeah, she just 0:22:59.205 --> 0:23:01.645 acted like nothing was going on. 0:23:02.365 --> 0:23:05.685 Were you angry through all of this once you'd had 0:23:05.685 --> 0:23:09.565 that kind of confrontation as they call it, when you 0:23:09.565 --> 0:23:13.805 were kind of waiting for her to admit what were 0:23:13.845 --> 0:23:15.005 the emotions? Was it anger? 0:23:15.965 --> 0:23:20.605 I was very angry. My mother has has battled cancer twice. 0:23:20.685 --> 0:23:23.005 I mean, I mean we all we all have a 0:23:23.045 --> 0:23:26.885 connection to someone who's had cancer or we know of 0:23:27.005 --> 0:23:31.605 someone that have someone close to them who's been touched 0:23:31.645 --> 0:23:35.925 by cancer. So yeah, it made me very angry. It's 0:23:37.445 --> 0:23:40.885 what was so alarming is that the message she was 0:23:40.925 --> 0:23:46.605 putting out was so dangerous because really vulnerable people, people 0:23:46.645 --> 0:23:51.365 with cancer, were making really serious decisions about their life 0:23:51.405 --> 0:23:55.525 and about their health. So yeah, it made my blood boil, 0:23:55.845 --> 0:24:00.205 especially because now I knew that I made her aware 0:24:00.285 --> 0:24:05.805 of how serious the situation was. There's been speculation and 0:24:05.925 --> 0:24:08.245 kind of this narrative about it was just this young 0:24:08.285 --> 0:24:12.445 woman who was very naive, this lie got away with 0:24:12.525 --> 0:24:13.765 her and it snowballed. 0:24:14.365 --> 0:24:16.925 However, that's not what I experienced. 0:24:17.005 --> 0:24:21.165 When I went to her and you know, made her 0:24:21.565 --> 0:24:25.325 really aware of how serious this wasn't and urged her 0:24:25.325 --> 0:24:28.365 to come forward, she just doubled down. 0:24:29.365 --> 0:24:31.965 I think the part of it that gets to me 0:24:32.045 --> 0:24:35.645 as well is, and I'd love your insight on this 0:24:35.965 --> 0:24:39.205 is how she would gravitate towards people that were sick 0:24:39.205 --> 0:24:41.565 and then kind of be a bit of a chameleon 0:24:41.605 --> 0:24:44.405 and emulate the things that she was seeing. That's a 0:24:44.485 --> 0:24:45.805 very calculated thing to do. 0:24:47.685 --> 0:24:51.205 Yeah, I mean that's what's also very tragic about this 0:24:51.285 --> 0:24:55.565 story is there were very sick, vulnerable people that she 0:24:55.605 --> 0:24:59.405 got very close to. One was a little boy who 0:24:59.525 --> 0:25:03.965 had who did have brain cancer, and she was fund 0:25:04.045 --> 0:25:09.525 raising on behalf of him and his family to pay 0:25:09.765 --> 0:25:14.765 for him to potentially have life saving surgery, and that 0:25:14.885 --> 0:25:19.645 money was never handed over. And unfortunately that little boy 0:25:19.645 --> 0:25:22.805 has passed away. I'm not saying he passed away because 0:25:23.445 --> 0:25:27.965 of his association with Belle, but also he was at 0:25:28.365 --> 0:25:31.365 the birthday party that day that she faked the seizure, 0:25:31.845 --> 0:25:36.325 so that little boy Bell's son, they had to witness 0:25:36.845 --> 0:25:40.325