1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:13,125 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mom and Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,885 --> 00:00:16,885 Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:19,885 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hey, No Filter listeners. 4 00:00:19,925 --> 00:00:23,205 Speaker 2: I'm Gemma, the host of True Crime Conversations, and today 5 00:00:23,285 --> 00:00:25,965 Speaker 2: I'm bringing you an episode from our podcast that we 6 00:00:26,005 --> 00:00:29,085 Speaker 2: think you'll really enjoy. In this one, I chat with 7 00:00:29,165 --> 00:00:32,805 Speaker 2: Chanelle mccauliffe, who used to be the best friend of 8 00:00:32,885 --> 00:00:36,885 Speaker 2: Belle Gibson, the woman who falsely claimed she had cancer 9 00:00:36,925 --> 00:00:40,325 Speaker 2: and said she cured it with natural remedies. Chanell is 10 00:00:40,325 --> 00:00:42,525 Speaker 2: the one who blew the whistle on Bell going to 11 00:00:42,565 --> 00:00:45,645 Speaker 2: the media, including the journalists at the Age who later 12 00:00:45,685 --> 00:00:48,725 Speaker 2: wrote a book about the whole story. You might have 13 00:00:48,805 --> 00:00:51,645 Speaker 2: seen the series Apple Cider Vinegar, which is based on 14 00:00:51,765 --> 00:00:55,285 Speaker 2: that book. Chanelle shares her thoughts with me on whether 15 00:00:55,325 --> 00:00:58,885 Speaker 2: the show really captures what happened after forcing herself to 16 00:00:58,885 --> 00:01:01,085 Speaker 2: watch it, and she takes us back to when Bell 17 00:01:01,325 --> 00:01:05,205 Speaker 2: was a huge influencer and she started to realize that 18 00:01:05,325 --> 00:01:07,965 Speaker 2: everything was a lie. Give it a listen. Kate will 19 00:01:07,965 --> 00:01:12,725 Speaker 2: be back next week with another No Filter interview. It's 20 00:01:12,725 --> 00:01:16,605 Speaker 2: early twenty fifteen and single mum and entrepreneur Bell Gibson 21 00:01:16,725 --> 00:01:19,925 Speaker 2: is living a life of luxury and success. She has 22 00:01:19,965 --> 00:01:23,405 Speaker 2: a widely popular recipe app called The Whole Pantry, which 23 00:01:23,445 --> 00:01:27,965 Speaker 2: features nourishing, plant based recipes, and she's preparing to release 24 00:01:28,005 --> 00:01:31,405 Speaker 2: a book of the same name. Last year, she was 25 00:01:31,525 --> 00:01:35,605 Speaker 2: named Elle Magazine's Most Aspiring Woman You've Met this Year 26 00:01:36,165 --> 00:01:40,565 Speaker 2: and was Cosmo Magazine's Fun Fearless Female Recipient. Her app 27 00:01:40,645 --> 00:01:43,565 Speaker 2: claimed the Apple title of Best Food and Drink App 28 00:01:43,605 --> 00:01:47,085 Speaker 2: of twenty thirteen, and a few short years later, she's 29 00:01:47,125 --> 00:01:51,965 Speaker 2: already enjoying over one million in sales. Her empire is 30 00:01:52,045 --> 00:01:56,285 Speaker 2: built on an inspiring story of triumph, a harrowing and 31 00:01:56,445 --> 00:02:01,045 Speaker 2: heartwarming story of survival. She first started posting about her 32 00:02:01,085 --> 00:02:05,605 Speaker 2: malignant brain cancer on Instagram in twenty thirteen. Diagnosed in 33 00:02:05,605 --> 00:02:08,205 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine at the age of twenty, she 34 00:02:08,325 --> 00:02:11,765 Speaker 2: was given just four months to live. Instead of doing 35 00:02:11,805 --> 00:02:17,965 Speaker 2: the usual chemotherapy and radiation treatments, Belle opted for alternative remedies, and, 36 00:02:18,045 --> 00:02:21,165 Speaker 2: as she shared with her growing fan base, they worked, 37 00:02:22,045 --> 00:02:26,165 Speaker 2: they healed her. She spoke of a healthy diet free 38 00:02:26,285 --> 00:02:30,405 Speaker 2: of gluten and sugar, of salt, vitamin and oxygen treatments, 39 00:02:31,125 --> 00:02:35,045 Speaker 2: of the power of colonics, and the benefits of Arabatic medicine, 40 00:02:35,645 --> 00:02:40,605 Speaker 2: an ancient Indian holistic healing system. She encouraged her hundreds 41 00:02:40,645 --> 00:02:44,725 Speaker 2: of thousands of followers to empower themselves and reclaim their 42 00:02:44,725 --> 00:02:49,765 Speaker 2: lives through wellness, to heal themselves like she did naturally. 43 00:02:51,165 --> 00:02:55,165 Speaker 2: But it was all a lie, all of it, and 44 00:02:55,205 --> 00:02:58,525 Speaker 2: it was one of her close friends who first cottoned 45 00:02:58,525 --> 00:03:08,605 Speaker 2: on to the truth. I'm Jemma Bath and this is 46 00:03:08,685 --> 00:03:12,965 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's 47 00:03:13,005 --> 00:03:16,165 Speaker 2: most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know 48 00:03:16,285 --> 00:03:19,445 Speaker 2: the most about them. A brand new series has just 49 00:03:19,565 --> 00:03:20,645 Speaker 2: dropped on Netflix. 50 00:03:21,965 --> 00:03:25,085 Speaker 3: I was diagnosed with a Stage four brain shiver. 51 00:03:26,125 --> 00:03:30,165 Speaker 2: That was four years ago. Human beings are capable of anything. 52 00:03:32,525 --> 00:03:36,685 Speaker 1: I was un a quest feel myself naturally. I first 53 00:03:36,845 --> 00:03:38,805 Speaker 1: seek out was raw and honest. 54 00:03:39,685 --> 00:03:44,565 Speaker 2: Appleside of Vinegar follows the story of Belle Gibson's success, lies, 55 00:03:44,765 --> 00:03:48,245 Speaker 2: and demise and right now it's the TV show everyone's 56 00:03:48,285 --> 00:03:52,365 Speaker 2: talking about. Her unraveling started because of a suspicious friend. 57 00:03:52,845 --> 00:03:55,605 Speaker 2: For Chanelle mccauloff, there were certain parts of her story 58 00:03:55,645 --> 00:03:59,925 Speaker 2: that weren't adding up, certain incidents and symptoms that raised 59 00:03:59,925 --> 00:04:04,805 Speaker 2: her eyebrow. Eventually, it would be Chanelle that would first 60 00:04:04,845 --> 00:04:08,565 Speaker 2: confront the conwoman. She was the whistleblower that brought down 61 00:04:08,605 --> 00:04:10,845 Speaker 2: her web of line and uncovered the damage she was 62 00:04:10,885 --> 00:04:14,685 Speaker 2: doing to sick, vulnerable people. In Apple Side Vinegar, the 63 00:04:14,765 --> 00:04:18,125 Speaker 2: character of Chanelle looks a little bit different to real life. 64 00:04:18,165 --> 00:04:21,685 Speaker 2: In real life, Chanelle had no relationship with jess Ainsco, 65 00:04:22,205 --> 00:04:26,325 Speaker 2: another wellness influencer who was actually living with cancer whose 66 00:04:26,365 --> 00:04:29,045 Speaker 2: story is best represented by the character of Miller in 67 00:04:29,085 --> 00:04:32,445 Speaker 2: the show. She wasn't working for Bell, just a friend 68 00:04:32,525 --> 00:04:35,925 Speaker 2: of Belle's, but she is the one who confronted her 69 00:04:35,965 --> 00:04:39,765 Speaker 2: in her house and went to the media. As Belle's 70 00:04:39,765 --> 00:04:43,485 Speaker 2: story is once again thrust before an international audience, we 71 00:04:43,565 --> 00:04:49,485 Speaker 2: got the chance to speak to Chanelle. Chanelle Bell Gibson's 72 00:04:49,565 --> 00:04:53,565 Speaker 2: name is once again everywhere. It's making headlines because there's 73 00:04:53,565 --> 00:04:57,405 Speaker 2: a Netflix series out about her life and her crimes. 74 00:04:58,365 --> 00:04:59,125 Speaker 2: Have you watched it? 75 00:05:00,405 --> 00:05:02,965 Speaker 4: I have seen the show. I did have to force 76 00:05:03,045 --> 00:05:07,325 Speaker 4: myself to watch it. I'm overall I'm not entirely a 77 00:05:07,445 --> 00:05:10,085 Speaker 4: huge fan of the show for an un of reasons 78 00:05:10,125 --> 00:05:13,325 Speaker 4: that we can chat about if you like. But yes, 79 00:05:13,605 --> 00:05:16,765 Speaker 4: it seems to be a very big story in the 80 00:05:16,805 --> 00:05:17,925 Speaker 4: media right now. 81 00:05:18,125 --> 00:05:21,565 Speaker 2: So Originally you weren't going to watch it, were you? 82 00:05:21,605 --> 00:05:26,725 Speaker 4: No, I wasn't. I'm not entirely comfortable with dramatization and 83 00:05:26,925 --> 00:05:32,605 Speaker 4: sensationalization of the story. The show has distorted the truth 84 00:05:33,085 --> 00:05:36,765 Speaker 4: a little bit as well, and I'm not that comfortable 85 00:05:36,805 --> 00:05:41,405 Speaker 4: with the capitalization of the harm that was caused to 86 00:05:41,445 --> 00:05:45,565 Speaker 4: people with cancer. So yeah, there's obviously Netflix and a 87 00:05:45,605 --> 00:05:50,405 Speaker 4: film studio and people profiting from that harm that was caused. 88 00:05:50,765 --> 00:05:53,485 Speaker 4: I've sort of been thinking a lot about the ethics 89 00:05:53,805 --> 00:05:57,325 Speaker 4: behind this kind of storytelling on that platform. 90 00:05:58,045 --> 00:05:59,725 Speaker 1: I'm not entirely comfortable with. 91 00:05:59,685 --> 00:06:04,005 Speaker 4: The way that these two characters Beal and Miller, who 92 00:06:04,365 --> 00:06:07,645 Speaker 4: Miller is based on a real life person, jess Ainsco, 93 00:06:07,725 --> 00:06:10,845 Speaker 4: who actually did have cancer and was trying to heal 94 00:06:10,885 --> 00:06:15,925 Speaker 4: her accouncer naturally through wellness and natural remedies. They've pitted 95 00:06:15,925 --> 00:06:19,245 Speaker 4: these two women against each other in the show, which 96 00:06:19,325 --> 00:06:22,925 Speaker 4: actually didn't occur in real life, and I think it's 97 00:06:23,485 --> 00:06:30,765 Speaker 4: quite a cliche, unoriginal, stereotypical narrative to kind of pit 98 00:06:31,045 --> 00:06:37,205 Speaker 4: women against each other competitively as rivals, bitchy, gossipy, which 99 00:06:37,245 --> 00:06:40,565 Speaker 4: is kind of what was depicted in the show. I 100 00:06:40,605 --> 00:06:42,965 Speaker 4: just think it was really unnecessary, and I hope that 101 00:06:43,325 --> 00:06:47,485 Speaker 4: the core messages that are really important about this story, 102 00:06:47,645 --> 00:06:49,965 Speaker 4: about the harm that was cause to people, about how 103 00:06:50,005 --> 00:06:55,165 Speaker 4: we can easily be misled or consume misinformation online. I 104 00:06:55,245 --> 00:06:58,565 Speaker 4: just hope that those important messages aren't lost through the 105 00:06:58,565 --> 00:07:00,285 Speaker 4: glamorization of this show. 106 00:07:00,925 --> 00:07:03,645 Speaker 2: What about your character in the show, because they use 107 00:07:03,725 --> 00:07:07,485 Speaker 2: your name, but your character is kind of an amalgamation 108 00:07:07,645 --> 00:07:10,765 Speaker 2: of you and you know other people in Bell's life. 109 00:07:10,845 --> 00:07:12,805 Speaker 2: How did you feel about the way they portrayed you. 110 00:07:14,605 --> 00:07:19,165 Speaker 4: I actually was pleasantly surprised how my character was portrayed. 111 00:07:19,285 --> 00:07:21,765 Speaker 4: I had no idea what they were going to do 112 00:07:21,845 --> 00:07:24,245 Speaker 4: with it. I mean, obviously there's many things about my 113 00:07:24,325 --> 00:07:27,685 Speaker 4: character and in the show that aren't accurate. For example, 114 00:07:27,725 --> 00:07:32,485 Speaker 4: I wasn't Bell's manager or jess ains Co's manager Miller's character. 115 00:07:32,965 --> 00:07:38,645 Speaker 4: I did know jess ains Co, but we weren't close friends. However, 116 00:07:39,485 --> 00:07:43,965 Speaker 4: the scenes where I confront Bell, which is now dubbed 117 00:07:44,005 --> 00:07:47,405 Speaker 4: the intervention, where I am urging her to come forward 118 00:07:47,565 --> 00:07:50,445 Speaker 4: and tell the truth, there was a lot of main 119 00:07:50,485 --> 00:07:54,125 Speaker 4: parts of that scene that were really accurate, and I 120 00:07:54,165 --> 00:07:56,565 Speaker 4: found that scene to be really compelling, and I think 121 00:07:56,965 --> 00:08:00,805 Speaker 4: it's really important for me for the world to see 122 00:08:00,845 --> 00:08:04,605 Speaker 4: that I did urge Bell to come forward and tell 123 00:08:04,645 --> 00:08:07,845 Speaker 4: the truth. I never set out to expose Bell to 124 00:08:07,925 --> 00:08:11,685 Speaker 4: have Bell canceled. I actually went to her as her 125 00:08:11,685 --> 00:08:14,805 Speaker 4: friend and said, if you come forward and tell the truth, 126 00:08:14,845 --> 00:08:17,565 Speaker 4: I will help you. I'll support you with the fallout. 127 00:08:18,245 --> 00:08:21,685 Speaker 4: And she refused to and had she done that, things 128 00:08:21,725 --> 00:08:24,125 Speaker 4: could have played out so much differently for her. 129 00:08:24,765 --> 00:08:26,365 Speaker 2: I want to go back to the start of your 130 00:08:26,405 --> 00:08:30,525 Speaker 2: story because it is quite different to the Netflix show. 131 00:08:31,845 --> 00:08:34,765 Speaker 2: Tell us about how you met Belle Sure. 132 00:08:35,325 --> 00:08:38,005 Speaker 4: So, I was actually doing a writing internship for a 133 00:08:38,005 --> 00:08:41,445 Speaker 4: publication in Melbourne at the time, and they were more 134 00:08:41,485 --> 00:08:44,325 Speaker 4: just interested in doing a puff piece on her. It 135 00:08:44,445 --> 00:08:47,365 Speaker 4: was we were kind of interested in what she was 136 00:08:47,365 --> 00:08:51,645 Speaker 4: doing with food and technology and being innovative and this kind. 137 00:08:51,565 --> 00:08:55,165 Speaker 1: Of startup space. So I reached out to her. 138 00:08:55,245 --> 00:08:58,725 Speaker 4: And she invited me to the launch event of the 139 00:08:58,765 --> 00:09:02,965 Speaker 4: Whole Pantry app and that night it was quite difficult 140 00:09:03,045 --> 00:09:05,885 Speaker 4: for us to connect and chat. She was hosting the event. 141 00:09:06,165 --> 00:09:09,445 Speaker 4: There's so many people there and so she's talking a 142 00:09:09,485 --> 00:09:12,925 Speaker 4: lot of people. We just briefly kind of introduced ourselves, 143 00:09:13,005 --> 00:09:16,965 Speaker 4: and then after that event we met up for I 144 00:09:16,965 --> 00:09:21,205 Speaker 4: think coffee, and it was really difficult to kind of 145 00:09:21,525 --> 00:09:24,325 Speaker 4: get any information out of her, and so I just 146 00:09:24,445 --> 00:09:27,205 Speaker 4: thought I'll just build a bit of rupperhor with her. 147 00:09:27,445 --> 00:09:30,125 Speaker 4: It turned out we had some mutual friends. So then 148 00:09:30,165 --> 00:09:33,325 Speaker 4: we went for coffee again and then lunch and dinner, 149 00:09:33,445 --> 00:09:39,245 Speaker 4: and we were at similar events together and naturally just 150 00:09:39,485 --> 00:09:41,405 Speaker 4: a friendship formed from them. 151 00:09:42,445 --> 00:09:46,565 Speaker 2: What did being friends with Bell look like? Was it 152 00:09:46,925 --> 00:09:49,605 Speaker 2: constant messaging? Was it hanging out all the time? Was 153 00:09:49,605 --> 00:09:50,365 Speaker 2: she a good friend? 154 00:09:52,085 --> 00:09:57,325 Speaker 4: Belle was really warm and charismatic. She actually had a 155 00:09:57,365 --> 00:10:01,045 Speaker 4: way of making you feel really special, and looking back, 156 00:10:01,885 --> 00:10:06,165 Speaker 4: I think this was part of kind of it was 157 00:10:06,245 --> 00:10:09,725 Speaker 4: quite calculated on her behalf, because she had to flecked 158 00:10:09,805 --> 00:10:13,685 Speaker 4: from herself so much, and if you've seen interviews with her, 159 00:10:13,805 --> 00:10:16,925 Speaker 4: especially this sixty minutes interviewer in the show, it's very 160 00:10:16,965 --> 00:10:20,165 Speaker 4: difficult to get a straight answer from her. So she 161 00:10:20,885 --> 00:10:24,325 Speaker 4: had a way of really making the attention about the 162 00:10:24,405 --> 00:10:28,645 Speaker 4: other person. So you always felt really kind of special 163 00:10:29,005 --> 00:10:33,645 Speaker 4: and important in her presence. Our friendship looked like going 164 00:10:33,645 --> 00:10:36,725 Speaker 4: out for lunch. It sentered a lot around food. And 165 00:10:36,765 --> 00:10:40,765 Speaker 4: what was quite interesting is my partner at the time 166 00:10:41,365 --> 00:10:45,965 Speaker 4: actually had a traumatic brain injury and Beao really connected 167 00:10:46,005 --> 00:10:49,405 Speaker 4: with him and developed a really close friendship with him 168 00:10:49,565 --> 00:10:54,925 Speaker 4: because she claimed that because of her brain tumor. That 169 00:10:55,045 --> 00:10:57,645 Speaker 4: also meant she had a traumatic brain injury as a 170 00:10:57,685 --> 00:11:01,685 Speaker 4: result of the brain tumor. What we've now learnt about 171 00:11:01,765 --> 00:11:06,565 Speaker 4: Bell is that she gravitated to people, especially you know, 172 00:11:06,605 --> 00:11:11,005 Speaker 4: people with cancer, to leverage them to her own advantage, 173 00:11:11,005 --> 00:11:13,325 Speaker 4: to learn about their symptoms and take them on as 174 00:11:13,365 --> 00:11:13,765 Speaker 4: her own. 175 00:11:14,445 --> 00:11:17,485 Speaker 1: So she was actually doing that with my partner at 176 00:11:17,485 --> 00:11:17,885 Speaker 1: the time. 177 00:11:18,005 --> 00:11:22,485 Speaker 4: However, you know, I wasn't aware of that, and so yes, 178 00:11:22,565 --> 00:11:27,125 Speaker 4: they they had a close friendship and and out friendship 179 00:11:27,205 --> 00:11:29,365 Speaker 4: circle kind of just grew as well from there. 180 00:11:29,925 --> 00:11:31,965 Speaker 2: What did you think of her success about the whole 181 00:11:32,005 --> 00:11:34,605 Speaker 2: pantry and everything she was doing in that space. 182 00:11:36,645 --> 00:11:39,205 Speaker 4: I was quite impressed by the business she was building. 183 00:11:39,645 --> 00:11:43,885 Speaker 4: She was quite innovative for that era. It was really 184 00:11:44,085 --> 00:11:49,205 Speaker 4: early days of social media, especially Instagram, building an audience, 185 00:11:49,285 --> 00:11:54,845 Speaker 4: connecting with an audience, getting on the Apple Watch. So 186 00:11:55,765 --> 00:11:58,765 Speaker 4: that was compelling to me at the time. This, you know, 187 00:11:58,845 --> 00:12:01,845 Speaker 4: regardless if she was sick or not, this young woman, 188 00:12:02,285 --> 00:12:07,205 Speaker 4: this young single mother, pioneering you know, this this technology 189 00:12:07,325 --> 00:12:08,565 Speaker 4: and this business. 190 00:12:09,085 --> 00:12:12,285 Speaker 1: So that was that side of it was compelling at 191 00:12:12,285 --> 00:12:12,605 Speaker 1: the time. 192 00:12:13,325 --> 00:12:17,085 Speaker 2: When did you start getting a weird feeling? What were 193 00:12:17,125 --> 00:12:19,085 Speaker 2: the first things that kind of struck you as odd? 194 00:12:20,525 --> 00:12:24,165 Speaker 4: So behind the scenes, there would be things like we 195 00:12:24,285 --> 00:12:28,165 Speaker 4: would go out drinking and one night, you know, she 196 00:12:28,325 --> 00:12:31,245 Speaker 4: ordered shots and we were doing shots, and I said, oh, 197 00:12:31,845 --> 00:12:34,005 Speaker 4: should you really be drinking? Like, you know, she was 198 00:12:34,045 --> 00:12:40,045 Speaker 4: obviously doing this very strict wellness natural protocol to heal 199 00:12:40,085 --> 00:12:45,165 Speaker 4: herself from cancer, so drinking alcohol excessively was kind of 200 00:12:45,445 --> 00:12:48,245 Speaker 4: really in conflict of that. So I said, you know, 201 00:12:48,245 --> 00:12:50,365 Speaker 4: should you be drinking? And she said, well, I'm going 202 00:12:50,445 --> 00:12:53,925 Speaker 4: to die anyway, so why not have some fun. And 203 00:12:53,965 --> 00:12:56,645 Speaker 4: then there was a time where she also went to 204 00:12:56,685 --> 00:12:59,525 Speaker 4: the solarium, which I thought was a bit odd given 205 00:12:59,885 --> 00:13:04,485 Speaker 4: the risk of skin cancer with using selarium. And then 206 00:13:04,725 --> 00:13:08,645 Speaker 4: the biggest thing for me, well, apart from that, she 207 00:13:08,725 --> 00:13:12,245 Speaker 4: never appeared sick ever, never saw her sick. 208 00:13:12,285 --> 00:13:15,645 Speaker 1: She was the epitome of wellness right. 209 00:13:15,765 --> 00:13:20,845 Speaker 4: She this beautiful, long, lush hair, She was glowing, she 210 00:13:20,925 --> 00:13:28,005 Speaker 4: was active, happy, and then at her son's fourth birthday party, 211 00:13:29,405 --> 00:13:33,445 Speaker 4: she all of a sudden collapsed to the floor and 212 00:13:34,005 --> 00:13:37,325 Speaker 4: was having what appeared to be quite a violent seizure. 213 00:13:37,405 --> 00:13:40,485 Speaker 4: She was convulsing on the ground, saliva was coming out 214 00:13:40,525 --> 00:13:43,605 Speaker 4: of her mouth, and this went on for a really 215 00:13:43,685 --> 00:13:50,645 Speaker 4: long time, about forty minutes, and about halfway through, I said, 216 00:13:50,685 --> 00:13:53,365 Speaker 4: I'm calling an ambulance, and all of a sudden she 217 00:13:53,485 --> 00:13:56,525 Speaker 4: kind of comes out of the seizure and says, no, 218 00:13:57,445 --> 00:14:01,045 Speaker 4: I don't want Western medicine involved, and so I said, okay, 219 00:14:01,485 --> 00:14:03,925 Speaker 4: and then she kind of went back into the seizure 220 00:14:04,005 --> 00:14:06,605 Speaker 4: and then it kind of tape it off, And there 221 00:14:06,685 --> 00:14:10,525 Speaker 4: was just something about it that just seems really performative 222 00:14:11,045 --> 00:14:15,485 Speaker 4: to me. And yeah, it was that day I left 223 00:14:15,525 --> 00:14:19,245 Speaker 4: that party that I just knew in my gut that 224 00:14:19,325 --> 00:14:20,365 Speaker 4: something was really wrong. 225 00:14:20,965 --> 00:14:23,685 Speaker 2: Well, if I'm not mistaken, it was soon after that 226 00:14:23,765 --> 00:14:28,085 Speaker 2: birthday that she announced that her cancer was spreading. But 227 00:14:28,165 --> 00:14:29,325 Speaker 2: how did you find out about that? 228 00:14:30,685 --> 00:14:35,205 Speaker 4: Yes, so she announced on Instagram that she now had 229 00:14:35,285 --> 00:14:39,445 Speaker 4: stage four cancer. It had spread from her brain to spleen, 230 00:14:39,525 --> 00:14:43,085 Speaker 4: her uterus, in her blood. It was basically a death sentence, 231 00:14:43,285 --> 00:14:46,965 Speaker 4: and myself and most of her close friends we all 232 00:14:47,005 --> 00:14:52,165 Speaker 4: found out by seeing it on her Instagram, which you know, 233 00:14:52,285 --> 00:14:55,925 Speaker 4: it was we thought was quite odd that that's such 234 00:14:56,165 --> 00:15:01,645 Speaker 4: serious diagnosis, and you know, we were all so you know, 235 00:15:02,125 --> 00:15:06,685 Speaker 4: caring for her and concerned about her. So, yeah, it 236 00:15:06,765 --> 00:15:10,085 Speaker 4: was really strange that it wasn't some think that she 237 00:15:10,205 --> 00:15:12,885 Speaker 4: shared with anyone really directly. 238 00:15:13,205 --> 00:15:16,085 Speaker 1: It was just it was just kind of a press announcement. 239 00:15:16,805 --> 00:15:20,045 Speaker 2: Once you had this hunch, it's a big leap to 240 00:15:20,085 --> 00:15:22,605 Speaker 2: go from like having a feeling that something's not quite 241 00:15:22,685 --> 00:15:28,405 Speaker 2: right to actually like talking to someone about it. Did 242 00:15:28,445 --> 00:15:31,285 Speaker 2: you kind of mention it to friends and family, try 243 00:15:31,285 --> 00:15:34,125 Speaker 2: and get some other people involved in how you're feeling. 244 00:15:34,845 --> 00:15:38,325 Speaker 4: Yes, I did go to one of our mutual friends 245 00:15:38,685 --> 00:15:42,845 Speaker 4: and I shared my concerns with him what I thought 246 00:15:43,445 --> 00:15:46,365 Speaker 4: regret flags and why things didn't add up for me. 247 00:15:47,045 --> 00:15:51,125 Speaker 1: And he started to see that, yeah, okay. 248 00:15:51,765 --> 00:15:55,005 Speaker 4: Some of this doesn't make sense. So I asked him 249 00:15:55,005 --> 00:15:59,365 Speaker 4: if he would come with me to basically hold an 250 00:15:59,365 --> 00:16:02,805 Speaker 4: intervention and kind of confront Beow and try and get 251 00:16:02,805 --> 00:16:07,365 Speaker 4: some answers from her. So he agreed to do that, 252 00:16:07,605 --> 00:16:12,685 Speaker 4: and we went over to bal house unannounced, and we 253 00:16:12,725 --> 00:16:15,085 Speaker 4: sat her down and I just straight. 254 00:16:14,805 --> 00:16:17,565 Speaker 1: Out asked her if she had. 255 00:16:17,445 --> 00:16:25,245 Speaker 4: Cancer and what did she say. She was acting kind 256 00:16:25,325 --> 00:16:30,085 Speaker 4: of very defensive. She was saying that I was interrogating her. 257 00:16:30,965 --> 00:16:33,965 Speaker 4: She started to slump down in her chair and say 258 00:16:34,005 --> 00:16:36,605 Speaker 4: that she felt sick and was acting kind of faint, 259 00:16:37,525 --> 00:16:41,045 Speaker 4: which at that point I kind of knew was based 260 00:16:41,445 --> 00:16:45,205 Speaker 4: on having scene the seizure. I kind of knew that 261 00:16:45,285 --> 00:16:48,325 Speaker 4: maybe this was another tactic of hers to all of 262 00:16:48,365 --> 00:16:50,765 Speaker 4: a sudden, you know, act sick or as a way 263 00:16:50,805 --> 00:16:54,365 Speaker 4: to deflect. She said that of course she was sick. 264 00:16:55,285 --> 00:17:00,725 Speaker 4: I basically demanded her to go get any medical evidence 265 00:17:01,005 --> 00:17:04,445 Speaker 4: to prove that she had cancer, any scanned, any hospital, 266 00:17:04,605 --> 00:17:07,845 Speaker 4: doctor reports. She said that she didn't like to keep 267 00:17:07,885 --> 00:17:11,805 Speaker 4: those documents because it's negative energy in her house. And 268 00:17:11,845 --> 00:17:15,565 Speaker 4: so I asked her about this stage four diagnosis that 269 00:17:15,685 --> 00:17:18,205 Speaker 4: she had just announced, and I said, what hospital did 270 00:17:18,245 --> 00:17:21,445 Speaker 4: you go to to get that diagnosis? You know, I'm 271 00:17:21,485 --> 00:17:25,885 Speaker 4: sure that it was a major hospital in Melbourne. And 272 00:17:25,965 --> 00:17:28,285 Speaker 4: she said she didn't go to a hospital. She went 273 00:17:28,325 --> 00:17:31,605 Speaker 4: to some random doctor's house in the suburbs. He picked 274 00:17:31,605 --> 00:17:35,605 Speaker 4: her up and drove her there and gave her the diagnosis. 275 00:17:35,845 --> 00:17:39,365 Speaker 4: And I asked her who was that doctor? What's his name? 276 00:17:39,445 --> 00:17:44,205 Speaker 4: And she said doctor Phil And at that point I 277 00:17:45,005 --> 00:17:48,485 Speaker 4: actually thought it was so comical that the story was 278 00:17:48,845 --> 00:17:56,085 Speaker 4: her story was that ridiculous and that so unplausible. So yeah, 279 00:17:56,125 --> 00:18:02,685 Speaker 4: doctor Phil just had me stumped. And so I said, 280 00:18:02,685 --> 00:18:05,845 Speaker 4: if you've not had a proper diagnosis at a hospital 281 00:18:05,845 --> 00:18:10,045 Speaker 4: in some random house by this doctor you know, does 282 00:18:10,085 --> 00:18:14,685 Speaker 4: that mean your diagnosis is questionable? And she said, well, 283 00:18:15,325 --> 00:18:19,245 Speaker 4: possibly because doctor Phil's gone missing. He's gone to ground, 284 00:18:20,885 --> 00:18:24,685 Speaker 4: and none of his colleagues know where he is. And 285 00:18:24,765 --> 00:18:30,005 Speaker 4: so obviously that all just sounded even more suspicious and unbelievable. 286 00:18:31,165 --> 00:18:36,525 Speaker 4: So at this point she called Julie Gibbs, their editor 287 00:18:36,765 --> 00:18:41,525 Speaker 4: publisher at Penguin Books. And she's set asking Julie or 288 00:18:41,565 --> 00:18:45,645 Speaker 4: accusing Julie of speaking to her friends, and one of 289 00:18:45,685 --> 00:18:48,685 Speaker 4: her friends is jealous and accusing her of not being sick, 290 00:18:48,725 --> 00:18:52,765 Speaker 4: And did Julie put me up to this basically? And 291 00:18:52,805 --> 00:18:54,165 Speaker 4: from what I could tell. 292 00:18:54,805 --> 00:18:57,525 Speaker 1: Julie must have. I think Julie seemed really confused on the. 293 00:18:57,565 --> 00:19:01,645 Speaker 4: End the other end of the phone. Well, then called 294 00:19:01,685 --> 00:19:05,965 Speaker 4: someone else. She phoned her acupuncturist and asked him to 295 00:19:06,005 --> 00:19:11,165 Speaker 4: come over, and when he arrived, she said to him, 296 00:19:11,725 --> 00:19:14,485 Speaker 4: tell them that I have cancer. And this was kind 297 00:19:14,485 --> 00:19:17,005 Speaker 4: of her way to basically prove to us that she 298 00:19:17,125 --> 00:19:20,565 Speaker 4: had cancer. And he said, well, of course you have cancer, 299 00:19:21,365 --> 00:19:22,725 Speaker 4: And I said, well, how do you know that she 300 00:19:22,805 --> 00:19:25,925 Speaker 4: has cancer, and he said, because she told me so. 301 00:19:25,965 --> 00:19:28,525 Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like it was a short conversation. It 302 00:19:28,645 --> 00:19:31,205 Speaker 2: was over a few hours or so if you had 303 00:19:31,205 --> 00:19:33,045 Speaker 2: all these different phone calls and visitors. 304 00:19:33,085 --> 00:19:36,005 Speaker 4: And yes, it was quite a few hours. I mean 305 00:19:36,085 --> 00:19:41,325 Speaker 4: it seemed like forever at the time. I also went 306 00:19:41,405 --> 00:19:44,845 Speaker 4: upstairs at her house to try and find Clive, her partner, 307 00:19:45,005 --> 00:19:50,645 Speaker 4: who was somewhat involved in her business and the whole pantry. 308 00:19:51,365 --> 00:19:55,525 Speaker 4: And Clive was someone who was kind of really difficult 309 00:19:55,565 --> 00:19:58,365 Speaker 4: to figure out. He was kind of always in the background. 310 00:19:58,925 --> 00:20:04,005 Speaker 4: He was quite withdrawn, very quiet. So I went upstairs 311 00:20:04,045 --> 00:20:07,365 Speaker 4: and I found Clive and I said, Clive, you need 312 00:20:07,405 --> 00:20:11,605 Speaker 4: to tell me the truth. And he said she would 313 00:20:11,645 --> 00:20:17,005 Speaker 4: destroy anyone that tries to expose her, and that he 314 00:20:17,085 --> 00:20:20,925 Speaker 4: needs to protect her little boy. So it was kind 315 00:20:20,965 --> 00:20:25,405 Speaker 4: of a very cryptic, confronting answer I got from him. 316 00:20:25,685 --> 00:20:29,005 Speaker 4: He then came downstairs with me and he sat down 317 00:20:29,005 --> 00:20:31,965 Speaker 4: with us and we were trying to make sense of 318 00:20:32,005 --> 00:20:36,285 Speaker 4: it all, and it kind of the penny didn't drop 319 00:20:36,525 --> 00:20:38,125 Speaker 4: for me until a little bit later on. 320 00:20:38,205 --> 00:20:39,525 Speaker 1: But he made a comment that. 321 00:20:39,525 --> 00:20:43,085 Speaker 4: Night because I did did say to Bell, which you 322 00:20:43,125 --> 00:20:46,565 Speaker 4: can see in the show I said to her, this 323 00:20:46,605 --> 00:20:48,445 Speaker 4: is your inner circle knocking. 324 00:20:48,125 --> 00:20:50,965 Speaker 1: At your door. This is where it starts. 325 00:20:50,565 --> 00:20:54,245 Speaker 4: And this is where it can end, and urging her 326 00:20:54,685 --> 00:20:57,725 Speaker 4: to come forward on her own terms and tell the truth. 327 00:20:58,605 --> 00:21:02,125 Speaker 4: And at that point when I was saying that, Clive 328 00:21:02,845 --> 00:21:06,285 Speaker 4: said to Bell Belle, you need to get the books 329 00:21:06,325 --> 00:21:10,205 Speaker 4: in order. And I think what that's meant later on 330 00:21:11,005 --> 00:21:14,445 Speaker 4: was in regards to the charity fraud that that Belle 331 00:21:14,605 --> 00:21:18,365 Speaker 4: was conducting. So the books for her business, you know, 332 00:21:18,405 --> 00:21:20,965 Speaker 4: weren't in order. She needed to kind of start covering 333 00:21:21,005 --> 00:21:25,405 Speaker 4: her tracks or start paying the charities. So he was 334 00:21:25,485 --> 00:21:28,805 Speaker 4: kind of hinting to Bowl and basically just just putting 335 00:21:28,845 --> 00:21:31,005 Speaker 4: it out there that she needed to. 336 00:21:31,005 --> 00:21:32,165 Speaker 1: Tie up loose ends. 337 00:21:32,965 --> 00:21:40,525 Speaker 4: So I left that night just being absolutely gobsmacked that 338 00:21:41,365 --> 00:21:43,925 Speaker 4: it just had confirmed everything for me. 339 00:21:43,925 --> 00:21:45,725 Speaker 1: That it was all a lie. 340 00:21:46,365 --> 00:21:50,245 Speaker 4: There was there was at times for me where there 341 00:21:50,285 --> 00:21:51,605 Speaker 4: was one percent of me that. 342 00:21:52,405 --> 00:21:54,205 Speaker 1: Felt what if I've got this all wrong? 343 00:21:54,685 --> 00:21:59,325 Speaker 4: What if I'm accusing this poor young woman of not 344 00:21:59,365 --> 00:22:02,045 Speaker 4: having cancel when she really does. But that night it 345 00:22:02,205 --> 00:22:07,685 Speaker 4: just solidified everything for me. And so I left there 346 00:22:07,845 --> 00:22:11,805 Speaker 4: urging Bell again to to come forward and tell the truth. 347 00:22:12,045 --> 00:22:16,125 Speaker 4: And then a few days later I called her and 348 00:22:16,165 --> 00:22:18,245 Speaker 4: I asked her if she was ready to come forward, 349 00:22:19,245 --> 00:22:24,285 Speaker 4: and again I was met with defensiveness, some aggression. And 350 00:22:24,285 --> 00:22:26,565 Speaker 4: then it was maybe a week or a couple of 351 00:22:26,565 --> 00:22:30,445 Speaker 4: weeks after that, it was her book launch, and we 352 00:22:31,245 --> 00:22:33,765 Speaker 4: actually weren't really obviously. 353 00:22:34,805 --> 00:22:37,525 Speaker 1: Kind of friends anymore at this point on talking terms. 354 00:22:37,525 --> 00:22:38,485 Speaker 1: There was a lot of tension. 355 00:22:39,285 --> 00:22:41,685 Speaker 4: She knew that I knew, but I still rocked up 356 00:22:41,725 --> 00:22:44,005 Speaker 4: to her book launch, and as you'll see in the show, 357 00:22:44,285 --> 00:22:47,885 Speaker 4: I stood there in the crowd and just really stared 358 00:22:47,885 --> 00:22:51,485 Speaker 4: at her and just made a point of you know 359 00:22:51,605 --> 00:22:54,085 Speaker 4: that there's someone here that knows and is going to 360 00:22:54,165 --> 00:22:58,885 Speaker 4: hold you accountable. And the book launch, yeah, she just 361 00:22:59,205 --> 00:23:01,645 Speaker 4: acted like nothing was going on. 362 00:23:02,365 --> 00:23:05,685 Speaker 2: Were you angry through all of this once you'd had 363 00:23:05,685 --> 00:23:09,565 Speaker 2: that kind of confrontation as they call it, when you 364 00:23:09,565 --> 00:23:13,805 Speaker 2: were kind of waiting for her to admit what were 365 00:23:13,845 --> 00:23:15,005 Speaker 2: the emotions? Was it anger? 366 00:23:15,965 --> 00:23:20,605 Speaker 4: I was very angry. My mother has has battled cancer twice. 367 00:23:20,685 --> 00:23:23,005 Speaker 4: I mean, I mean we all we all have a 368 00:23:23,045 --> 00:23:26,885 Speaker 4: connection to someone who's had cancer or we know of 369 00:23:27,005 --> 00:23:31,605 Speaker 4: someone that have someone close to them who's been touched 370 00:23:31,645 --> 00:23:35,925 Speaker 4: by cancer. So yeah, it made me very angry. It's 371 00:23:37,445 --> 00:23:40,885 Speaker 4: what was so alarming is that the message she was 372 00:23:40,925 --> 00:23:46,605 Speaker 4: putting out was so dangerous because really vulnerable people, people 373 00:23:46,645 --> 00:23:51,365 Speaker 4: with cancer, were making really serious decisions about their life 374 00:23:51,405 --> 00:23:55,525 Speaker 4: and about their health. So yeah, it made my blood boil, 375 00:23:55,845 --> 00:24:00,205 Speaker 4: especially because now I knew that I made her aware 376 00:24:00,285 --> 00:24:05,805 Speaker 4: of how serious the situation was. There's been speculation and 377 00:24:05,925 --> 00:24:08,245 Speaker 4: kind of this narrative about it was just this young 378 00:24:08,285 --> 00:24:12,445 Speaker 4: woman who was very naive, this lie got away with 379 00:24:12,525 --> 00:24:13,765 Speaker 4: her and it snowballed. 380 00:24:14,365 --> 00:24:16,925 Speaker 1: However, that's not what I experienced. 381 00:24:17,005 --> 00:24:21,165 Speaker 4: When I went to her and you know, made her 382 00:24:21,565 --> 00:24:25,325 Speaker 4: really aware of how serious this wasn't and urged her 383 00:24:25,325 --> 00:24:28,365 Speaker 4: to come forward, she just doubled down. 384 00:24:29,365 --> 00:24:31,965 Speaker 2: I think the part of it that gets to me 385 00:24:32,045 --> 00:24:35,645 Speaker 2: as well is, and I'd love your insight on this 386 00:24:35,965 --> 00:24:39,205 Speaker 2: is how she would gravitate towards people that were sick 387 00:24:39,205 --> 00:24:41,565 Speaker 2: and then kind of be a bit of a chameleon 388 00:24:41,605 --> 00:24:44,405 Speaker 2: and emulate the things that she was seeing. That's a 389 00:24:44,485 --> 00:24:45,805 Speaker 2: very calculated thing to do. 390 00:24:47,685 --> 00:24:51,205 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's what's also very tragic about this 391 00:24:51,285 --> 00:24:55,565 Speaker 4: story is there were very sick, vulnerable people that she 392 00:24:55,605 --> 00:24:59,405 Speaker 4: got very close to. One was a little boy who 393 00:24:59,525 --> 00:25:03,965 Speaker 4: had who did have brain cancer, and she was fund 394 00:25:04,045 --> 00:25:09,525 Speaker 4: raising on behalf of him and his family to pay 395 00:25:09,765 --> 00:25:14,765 Speaker 4: for him to potentially have life saving surgery, and that 396 00:25:14,885 --> 00:25:19,645 Speaker 4: money was never handed over. And unfortunately that little boy 397 00:25:19,645 --> 00:25:22,805 Speaker 4: has passed away. I'm not saying he passed away because 398 00:25:23,445 --> 00:25:27,965 Speaker 4: of his association with Belle, but also he was at 399 00:25:28,365 --> 00:25:31,365 Speaker 4: the birthday party that day that she faked the seizure, 400 00:25:31,845 --> 00:25:36,325 Speaker 4: so that little boy Bell's son, they had to witness 401 00:25:36,845 --> 00:25:40,325 Speaker 4: this lie sort of firsthand as well. So the impact 402 00:25:41,405 --> 00:25:45,765 Speaker 4: it had on, you know, really vulnerable people is actually, 403 00:25:46,325 --> 00:25:47,325 Speaker 4: it is so shocking. 404 00:25:51,685 --> 00:25:54,125 Speaker 2: After the break she Noelle tells us about how she 405 00:25:54,205 --> 00:25:57,685 Speaker 2: approached the journalists who would help her expose Belle Gibson's 406 00:25:57,725 --> 00:26:05,925 Speaker 2: lies to the world. What did you do next? Obviously 407 00:26:05,965 --> 00:26:08,965 Speaker 2: you could see it that book launch. She wasn't admitting anything. 408 00:26:09,925 --> 00:26:12,285 Speaker 2: Do you go to the police, do you go straight 409 00:26:12,325 --> 00:26:14,405 Speaker 2: to the journalists? What are your next steps? 410 00:26:15,205 --> 00:26:17,405 Speaker 4: Yeah, so the first step I took was going to 411 00:26:17,445 --> 00:26:21,765 Speaker 4: the police, and the police said that I didn't have 412 00:26:21,805 --> 00:26:25,605 Speaker 4: any evidence, which I didn't, and it's obviously very difficult 413 00:26:25,725 --> 00:26:31,205 Speaker 4: to get access to someone's medical records. So yeah, the 414 00:26:31,245 --> 00:26:35,125 Speaker 4: police basically turned me away. I went to a very 415 00:26:35,205 --> 00:26:42,005 Speaker 4: high profile lawyer and he accused me of basically defamation 416 00:26:42,165 --> 00:26:46,165 Speaker 4: and slander. He happened to have a very close friend 417 00:26:46,405 --> 00:26:51,365 Speaker 4: who had cancer, and he was telling me that he 418 00:26:51,405 --> 00:26:56,805 Speaker 4: can't even fathom the thought of someone going around accusing 419 00:26:58,245 --> 00:27:02,765 Speaker 4: someone of cancer of lying and faking. So yeah, for 420 00:27:02,845 --> 00:27:06,965 Speaker 4: some reason, the lawyer, he kind of took it quite personally, 421 00:27:07,205 --> 00:27:13,045 Speaker 4: and yeah, made me feel very uncomfortable and didn't help me. 422 00:27:14,325 --> 00:27:17,765 Speaker 4: I then went to Australia's top investigative journalist at the 423 00:27:17,805 --> 00:27:21,485 Speaker 4: time hadn't heard of Bell before. He said he might 424 00:27:21,565 --> 00:27:24,165 Speaker 4: look into it, he might not, and I never heard 425 00:27:24,205 --> 00:27:26,805 Speaker 4: back from him again. This ended up being over a 426 00:27:26,805 --> 00:27:32,605 Speaker 4: period of sort of kind of weeks two months, and Yeah, 427 00:27:32,765 --> 00:27:35,845 Speaker 4: I was talking to people I knew. I was trying 428 00:27:35,845 --> 00:27:38,725 Speaker 4: to leverage my network to see if anyone could put 429 00:27:38,765 --> 00:27:42,485 Speaker 4: me in touch with someone credible who would believe me, 430 00:27:42,565 --> 00:27:45,805 Speaker 4: who could vouch for me that I was telling the truth. 431 00:27:46,645 --> 00:27:49,445 Speaker 4: And yeah, so it took quite a long time to 432 00:27:49,485 --> 00:27:52,925 Speaker 4: get to that point. And during that period I started 433 00:27:52,925 --> 00:27:59,965 Speaker 4: to feel very powerless and realized how challenging and difficult 434 00:28:00,005 --> 00:28:04,205 Speaker 4: it is to essentially kind of be a whistleblower and 435 00:28:04,445 --> 00:28:07,205 Speaker 4: come forward with the truth and have people look into 436 00:28:07,245 --> 00:28:12,045 Speaker 4: it and fact check it and stop people from causing harm. 437 00:28:12,125 --> 00:28:18,325 Speaker 4: So that was really disheartening. So then eventually my former 438 00:28:18,365 --> 00:28:22,405 Speaker 4: boss spoke to the editor or someone high up at 439 00:28:22,405 --> 00:28:26,725 Speaker 4: the AGE and they got one of their journalists to 440 00:28:26,765 --> 00:28:30,845 Speaker 4: get in touch with me, and that journalist was Bo Donnelly, 441 00:28:30,965 --> 00:28:35,205 Speaker 4: who with Nick Tuscano, they have published the book The 442 00:28:35,245 --> 00:28:38,525 Speaker 4: Woman Who Fooled the World, which the Netflix show has 443 00:28:38,565 --> 00:28:43,765 Speaker 4: been adapted from. So, as Bo tells the story, he 444 00:28:44,285 --> 00:28:48,805 Speaker 4: just thought that this was just some random tip off 445 00:28:49,045 --> 00:28:51,405 Speaker 4: that he had to check off his list, that maybe 446 00:28:51,565 --> 00:28:54,725 Speaker 4: it was a jealous friend with an axe to grind, 447 00:28:55,765 --> 00:28:58,165 Speaker 4: or you know, they get tip offs come into the 448 00:28:58,205 --> 00:29:02,205 Speaker 4: newsroom all the time, and most of them don't really 449 00:29:02,245 --> 00:29:04,925 Speaker 4: go anywhere. So he actually just called me on his 450 00:29:05,045 --> 00:29:07,405 Speaker 4: lunch break. He was at a cafe. It was very noisy. 451 00:29:07,885 --> 00:29:10,725 Speaker 4: I just started to tell him what I knew, what 452 00:29:10,845 --> 00:29:16,725 Speaker 4: I experienced, and what my motivation was for coming forward, 453 00:29:16,765 --> 00:29:20,725 Speaker 4: which was just for Bale to stop causing harm to 454 00:29:21,125 --> 00:29:26,965 Speaker 4: vulnerable people and spreading this misinformation. Sorry, Bo very quickly 455 00:29:27,005 --> 00:29:30,565 Speaker 4: from that call felt that I was very credible and 456 00:29:31,405 --> 00:29:33,445 Speaker 4: started to look into the case straight away. 457 00:29:34,325 --> 00:29:38,325 Speaker 2: In the Netflix show, the first article that they release 458 00:29:39,045 --> 00:29:42,245 Speaker 2: is that money fraud angle you know, the charities that 459 00:29:42,765 --> 00:29:45,285 Speaker 2: weren't getting the donations that Bell promised. Is that what 460 00:29:45,365 --> 00:29:47,765 Speaker 2: happened in real life is that the only angle they 461 00:29:47,805 --> 00:29:49,645 Speaker 2: could put out to start with. 462 00:29:50,165 --> 00:29:53,325 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. The Age also couldn't run a. 463 00:29:53,285 --> 00:29:58,565 Speaker 4: Story that they were just suspecting that this woman didn't 464 00:29:58,645 --> 00:30:01,125 Speaker 4: have cancer. The lawyers of the Age shut it down 465 00:30:01,245 --> 00:30:04,725 Speaker 4: very quickly because again the Age couldn't get access to 466 00:30:04,765 --> 00:30:08,645 Speaker 4: her medical records. There was no way to verify the 467 00:30:08,765 --> 00:30:14,565 Speaker 4: status of her health. And so the journalists Boe and 468 00:30:14,645 --> 00:30:18,605 Speaker 4: Nick they thought, well, if she's lying about something as 469 00:30:18,605 --> 00:30:23,725 Speaker 4: big as this, as big as having cancer and broadcasting 470 00:30:23,805 --> 00:30:27,085 Speaker 4: that to the world, then what else is she lying about? 471 00:30:27,725 --> 00:30:32,125 Speaker 4: And I shared with them that comment that Clive had 472 00:30:32,165 --> 00:30:37,005 Speaker 4: made the night that I had confronted Bell about the 473 00:30:37,045 --> 00:30:40,805 Speaker 4: state of the business books. And so they started looking 474 00:30:40,845 --> 00:30:45,605 Speaker 4: into whether she had actually made any donations to the 475 00:30:45,685 --> 00:30:49,725 Speaker 4: charities that she had been fundraising on behalf of and 476 00:30:50,125 --> 00:30:53,045 Speaker 4: they all said they never received a cent from her. 477 00:30:54,045 --> 00:30:58,365 Speaker 2: So once that angle is out there, that's obviously a 478 00:30:58,445 --> 00:31:02,685 Speaker 2: huge hit to Bell, and that's the start. That's how 479 00:31:02,725 --> 00:31:06,805 Speaker 2: it starts to kind of unravel more publicly. Were they 480 00:31:06,885 --> 00:31:11,485 Speaker 2: then able to fire the Cancer claims. How did they 481 00:31:11,845 --> 00:31:14,445 Speaker 2: manage to get that part of the investigation out. 482 00:31:14,325 --> 00:31:20,165 Speaker 4: Sure So coincidentally, around this time that I had gone 483 00:31:21,085 --> 00:31:24,085 Speaker 4: to the journalists at that age and they had reported 484 00:31:24,085 --> 00:31:27,565 Speaker 4: on her charity fraud, there was actually a journalist at 485 00:31:27,565 --> 00:31:33,045 Speaker 4: the Australian, Richard Gilliot, who had started to look into 486 00:31:33,125 --> 00:31:37,125 Speaker 4: Ball and he'd think he'd written some stories about Jessain's 487 00:31:37,125 --> 00:31:40,245 Speaker 4: co who in the Netflix show is the character Miller. 488 00:31:41,005 --> 00:31:45,365 Speaker 4: His wife actually had cancer and I think she had 489 00:31:45,405 --> 00:31:49,245 Speaker 4: looked into natural remedies and she'd kind of come across 490 00:31:49,325 --> 00:31:53,485 Speaker 4: jess And then as a result of that Richard it 491 00:31:53,525 --> 00:31:57,925 Speaker 4: was actually from Richard's own personal experience with his wife 492 00:31:58,005 --> 00:32:00,885 Speaker 4: that he started then sort of looking into these people, 493 00:32:01,765 --> 00:32:04,725 Speaker 4: and then he actually at the same time was starting 494 00:32:04,765 --> 00:32:08,725 Speaker 4: to unravel at all. And then it was very shortly 495 00:32:08,765 --> 00:32:13,445 Speaker 4: after the Age had broken the charity fraud story. I 496 00:32:13,445 --> 00:32:16,205 Speaker 4: think it was within a few days that Richard Gilliot 497 00:32:16,205 --> 00:32:19,405 Speaker 4: the Australian broke the story that Belle didn't have cancer. 498 00:32:19,485 --> 00:32:24,325 Speaker 4: He met with her and she said the same thing 499 00:32:24,365 --> 00:32:29,685 Speaker 4: to her to him, that her diagnosis was questionable and 500 00:32:29,805 --> 00:32:33,405 Speaker 4: she herself actually didn't know for certain if she had 501 00:32:33,445 --> 00:32:34,085 Speaker 4: cancer or not. 502 00:32:35,245 --> 00:32:41,765 Speaker 2: Once these stories and investigations started to get published, did 503 00:32:41,805 --> 00:32:43,805 Speaker 2: any of it shock you? Was there any kind of 504 00:32:44,125 --> 00:32:47,605 Speaker 2: revelations that came out that you didn't realize? 505 00:32:48,645 --> 00:32:51,765 Speaker 4: Nothing was really shocking to me at that point anymore. 506 00:32:52,565 --> 00:32:56,085 Speaker 4: When it came to Bell, I feel like I kind 507 00:32:56,125 --> 00:32:59,205 Speaker 4: of seen the worst of it, especially with that seizure. 508 00:32:59,285 --> 00:33:02,005 Speaker 4: It's just it's something I'll never I don't know, be 509 00:33:02,045 --> 00:33:03,725 Speaker 4: able to get out of my mind. 510 00:33:03,845 --> 00:33:07,005 Speaker 1: And the way the children reacted that day. 511 00:33:07,085 --> 00:33:11,765 Speaker 4: So yeah, nothing, nothing really surprised me or shocked me 512 00:33:12,405 --> 00:33:16,045 Speaker 4: about Bale anymore. There were things that came out people 513 00:33:16,125 --> 00:33:21,085 Speaker 4: from her past, her childhood, things like she had gone 514 00:33:21,085 --> 00:33:24,965 Speaker 4: to acting school and things like that, which I mean 515 00:33:25,045 --> 00:33:27,005 Speaker 4: kind of made sense to me. I don't know if 516 00:33:27,005 --> 00:33:31,285 Speaker 4: that's true or not. Yeah, I mean it was it. Yeah, 517 00:33:31,285 --> 00:33:33,365 Speaker 4: I mean, it didn't surprise me that it came out 518 00:33:33,405 --> 00:33:35,925 Speaker 4: that she had been doing this for a long time. 519 00:33:36,045 --> 00:33:41,405 Speaker 4: She had been in this skating forum, in this skating 520 00:33:41,445 --> 00:33:45,085 Speaker 4: community where she was telling all these people that she'd 521 00:33:45,525 --> 00:33:49,525 Speaker 4: had heart surgeries and she died on the operating table 522 00:33:49,765 --> 00:33:52,485 Speaker 4: and had been brought back to life and had all 523 00:33:52,485 --> 00:33:56,285 Speaker 4: these life threatening diseases, and as a result of that, 524 00:33:56,965 --> 00:34:01,245 Speaker 4: people in that community were sending her flowers and giving 525 00:34:01,245 --> 00:34:04,605 Speaker 4: her lots of attention. So, I mean, it was interesting 526 00:34:04,645 --> 00:34:08,125 Speaker 4: to see kind of some of the origin of where 527 00:34:08,125 --> 00:34:10,725 Speaker 4: this all began for her and why, and that this 528 00:34:10,885 --> 00:34:12,165 Speaker 4: was obviously a pattern. 529 00:34:12,965 --> 00:34:15,805 Speaker 2: Did you have any contact with her during that time 530 00:34:16,125 --> 00:34:17,245 Speaker 2: as it was all unraveling. 531 00:34:18,725 --> 00:34:21,525 Speaker 4: The day the first story broke, I did send her 532 00:34:21,565 --> 00:34:25,805 Speaker 4: a text message that that's the final communication I've had 533 00:34:25,805 --> 00:34:29,405 Speaker 4: with her, and I haven't heard from her since then. 534 00:34:29,925 --> 00:34:31,885 Speaker 2: What did you say in the text message? 535 00:34:32,805 --> 00:34:37,685 Speaker 4: I said that so Belle always had this saying that 536 00:34:37,725 --> 00:34:41,525 Speaker 4: she would say, and for example, she posted it on 537 00:34:41,565 --> 00:34:45,245 Speaker 4: this stage four cancer diagnosis on her Instagram when she 538 00:34:45,245 --> 00:34:48,645 Speaker 4: announced that, and she should always say, you know, I've 539 00:34:48,645 --> 00:34:52,565 Speaker 4: now got stage four cancer, but don't worry. I've got this, 540 00:34:53,365 --> 00:34:58,045 Speaker 4: or I'm fundraising all this money to help this boy, 541 00:34:58,405 --> 00:35:00,205 Speaker 4: you know, get life saving surgery. 542 00:35:00,565 --> 00:35:01,365 Speaker 1: I've got this. 543 00:35:03,005 --> 00:35:06,045 Speaker 4: And so yeah, I sent her a text message that 544 00:35:06,165 --> 00:35:09,125 Speaker 4: day as soon as the first article broke, and I said, 545 00:35:09,365 --> 00:35:12,125 Speaker 4: should check the news, but you've got this right. 546 00:35:12,485 --> 00:35:15,165 Speaker 2: It was a bit of a job, a fair enough job. 547 00:35:16,365 --> 00:35:17,205 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 548 00:35:17,325 --> 00:35:20,645 Speaker 4: I mean, I've done a lot of soul searching in 549 00:35:20,685 --> 00:35:25,125 Speaker 4: the last ten years and have tried to forgive Bao, 550 00:35:25,245 --> 00:35:28,885 Speaker 4: which I can't and I'm not sure I ever can. 551 00:35:29,205 --> 00:35:33,565 Speaker 4: But at that point, you know, I was really relieved 552 00:35:33,645 --> 00:35:36,765 Speaker 4: that she couldn't keep spreading the lies that she was 553 00:35:36,805 --> 00:35:40,645 Speaker 4: and I was doing. And I was so frustrated and 554 00:35:40,765 --> 00:35:43,965 Speaker 4: really angry that it took so long for the truth 555 00:35:44,005 --> 00:35:46,965 Speaker 4: to come out, and that she was, you know, so 556 00:35:47,125 --> 00:35:52,565 Speaker 4: combative to come out and tell the truth herself. So yeah, 557 00:35:52,605 --> 00:35:55,125 Speaker 4: that's why I sent the text message. I was kind 558 00:35:55,165 --> 00:35:58,925 Speaker 4: of kind of just at my wits end with it all. 559 00:35:59,685 --> 00:36:04,045 Speaker 2: Well at all obviously really unraveled quickly once you know, 560 00:36:04,605 --> 00:36:08,005 Speaker 2: the charity stuff had been exposed, the cancer was fake. 561 00:36:09,125 --> 00:36:12,325 Speaker 2: There's this sixty minutes interview that's really famous. She's in 562 00:36:12,365 --> 00:36:17,005 Speaker 2: a pink turtleneck and she's kind of been forced to, 563 00:36:18,325 --> 00:36:20,525 Speaker 2: I guess, kind of admit, but she doesn't really. She 564 00:36:20,605 --> 00:36:23,845 Speaker 2: kind of does this evasive kind of around the questions, 565 00:36:23,885 --> 00:36:26,125 Speaker 2: even though all the truth is already out there. By then. 566 00:36:26,645 --> 00:36:30,165 Speaker 3: You had three heart operations, you suffered two cardiac arrests, 567 00:36:30,245 --> 00:36:33,325 Speaker 3: you died twice on the operating table, you had a stroke, 568 00:36:34,045 --> 00:36:36,845 Speaker 3: and you were diagnosed with inoprople brain shimmer and given 569 00:36:36,845 --> 00:36:37,685 Speaker 3: four months to live. 570 00:36:38,765 --> 00:36:41,925 Speaker 2: Correct, and I just happened. I still have the heart 571 00:36:41,965 --> 00:36:44,485 Speaker 2: condition and I was supposed to have surgery for that. 572 00:36:44,765 --> 00:36:47,165 Speaker 3: You were supposed to have surgery and I didn't. 573 00:36:48,165 --> 00:36:49,885 Speaker 2: How did you feel watching that interview? 574 00:36:50,245 --> 00:36:53,365 Speaker 4: That interview was really difficult to watch, but it was 575 00:36:53,485 --> 00:36:56,805 Speaker 4: validating in a way for the world to finally see 576 00:36:56,885 --> 00:37:00,005 Speaker 4: what I was up against in terms of trying to 577 00:37:00,045 --> 00:37:02,245 Speaker 4: get the truth from bal trying to get a straight 578 00:37:02,285 --> 00:37:05,645 Speaker 4: answer from her, which obviously in that interview Tara Brown 579 00:37:05,725 --> 00:37:11,205 Speaker 4: could not get one straight answer from her. And yeah, 580 00:37:11,325 --> 00:37:14,045 Speaker 4: it was it was kind of validating in a way, 581 00:37:15,365 --> 00:37:18,045 Speaker 4: but at the same time, it was really sad to 582 00:37:18,125 --> 00:37:22,685 Speaker 4: see that her community and the people she took advantage 583 00:37:22,685 --> 00:37:30,085 Speaker 4: of were getting no accountability, no apology, no real genuine apology, 584 00:37:30,685 --> 00:37:36,525 Speaker 4: and no closure. So that was the hardest part about 585 00:37:36,525 --> 00:37:37,085 Speaker 4: watching it. 586 00:37:38,005 --> 00:37:43,405 Speaker 2: Do you have any idea where this kind of compulsive 587 00:37:43,485 --> 00:37:46,365 Speaker 2: lying and scamming comes from in Bell? Do you think 588 00:37:46,405 --> 00:37:51,045 Speaker 2: it's malice trauma? Like, do you have a theory? 589 00:37:52,125 --> 00:37:56,405 Speaker 4: I mean, obviously Bell is a very deeply troubled person 590 00:37:56,885 --> 00:38:00,685 Speaker 4: and there seems to be, you know, maybe a number 591 00:38:00,725 --> 00:38:05,765 Speaker 4: of reasons for that. She looked she did have I 592 00:38:05,805 --> 00:38:09,805 Speaker 4: think a difficult childhood. But you know, a lot of 593 00:38:09,805 --> 00:38:13,965 Speaker 4: people experience difficult childhoods, trauma in their childhoods, and they 594 00:38:14,005 --> 00:38:18,605 Speaker 4: don't go on to become a con artist and take 595 00:38:18,645 --> 00:38:21,285 Speaker 4: advantage of society's most vulnerable people. 596 00:38:22,245 --> 00:38:23,485 Speaker 1: So I do. 597 00:38:23,405 --> 00:38:26,725 Speaker 4: Sometimes think that that's kind of maybe an easy way 598 00:38:26,765 --> 00:38:29,125 Speaker 4: to explain maybe why. 599 00:38:29,005 --> 00:38:30,165 Speaker 1: She did what she did. 600 00:38:30,365 --> 00:38:35,005 Speaker 4: I think it's important to look at and she had 601 00:38:35,045 --> 00:38:35,845 Speaker 4: been doing. 602 00:38:35,605 --> 00:38:37,565 Speaker 1: This for quite a long time as well. 603 00:38:37,645 --> 00:38:41,645 Speaker 4: She had hurt other people, other people had kind of 604 00:38:41,645 --> 00:38:45,245 Speaker 4: caught her out on other lies, and so she had 605 00:38:45,285 --> 00:38:48,645 Speaker 4: already experienced the impact that that causes on people, and 606 00:38:48,965 --> 00:38:53,925 Speaker 4: obviously has not really experienced much remorse. Maybe from that. 607 00:38:54,525 --> 00:38:58,445 Speaker 4: I'm not going to comment on her state of mind 608 00:38:58,645 --> 00:39:03,005 Speaker 4: or her mental health, but from what I witnessed and 609 00:39:03,125 --> 00:39:07,165 Speaker 4: experienced with Bout, what I saw was that she was 610 00:39:07,245 --> 00:39:10,845 Speaker 4: using it basically as a business strategy to make money 611 00:39:11,485 --> 00:39:14,845 Speaker 4: and to be in the limelight, to be adored to 612 00:39:16,205 --> 00:39:20,365 Speaker 4: you know, to build a business and to change her life. 613 00:39:20,405 --> 00:39:24,045 Speaker 4: She was, you know, just I guess, quite an ordinary person. 614 00:39:24,165 --> 00:39:27,925 Speaker 4: And when she started bringing in this money, her lifestyle 615 00:39:28,005 --> 00:39:31,805 Speaker 4: changed a lot. She transitioned to more of kind of 616 00:39:31,805 --> 00:39:36,125 Speaker 4: a lavish lifestyle. She started renting a multimillion dollar beach house, 617 00:39:36,805 --> 00:39:42,525 Speaker 4: renting a BMW, flying first class on holidays overseas, buying 618 00:39:42,565 --> 00:39:48,845 Speaker 4: designer things. So in my opinion that that's what I 619 00:39:48,925 --> 00:39:52,965 Speaker 4: witnessed and experienced, is that she saw that her life 620 00:39:53,005 --> 00:39:56,925 Speaker 4: was benefiting her financially and she ran with that. 621 00:40:02,805 --> 00:40:06,325 Speaker 2: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass. 622 00:40:06,965 --> 00:40:10,085 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with the woman who exposed Bell Gibson, lies 623 00:40:10,365 --> 00:40:14,325 Speaker 2: Chanelle mccauliffe. Up next, we hear more about the court 624 00:40:14,365 --> 00:40:18,005 Speaker 2: proceedings and where Bell Gibson is now nearly ten years on. 625 00:40:22,325 --> 00:40:25,085 Speaker 2: How do you feel about the court proceedings that happened 626 00:40:25,165 --> 00:40:29,525 Speaker 2: after everything came out because she went to court, she 627 00:40:29,645 --> 00:40:33,645 Speaker 2: was fined four hundred and ten thousand dollars. There's no 628 00:40:33,765 --> 00:40:36,965 Speaker 2: jail time or anything like that. Do you think that 629 00:40:37,005 --> 00:40:38,045 Speaker 2: was a fitting punishment? 630 00:40:39,125 --> 00:40:42,325 Speaker 4: It was good to see that there was some justice brought, 631 00:40:42,565 --> 00:40:47,285 Speaker 4: but it has come out recently that it's maybe. 632 00:40:47,125 --> 00:40:50,085 Speaker 1: Not possible for the court to enforce. 633 00:40:50,525 --> 00:40:53,445 Speaker 4: That penalty, and she hasn't paid any of that penalty, 634 00:40:54,205 --> 00:40:56,885 Speaker 4: and actually one hundred and fifty thousand dollars of that 635 00:40:56,965 --> 00:41:00,525 Speaker 4: penalty was to go to the family of the little 636 00:41:00,565 --> 00:41:04,045 Speaker 4: boy that had brain cancer that she took advantage of 637 00:41:04,605 --> 00:41:11,445 Speaker 4: as compensation for their suffering. So it's really it's really 638 00:41:11,525 --> 00:41:16,885 Speaker 4: upsetting that potentially that family won't see that money. And 639 00:41:17,765 --> 00:41:20,165 Speaker 4: you know, it's been quite a long time. There's been 640 00:41:20,405 --> 00:41:26,485 Speaker 4: many years since she was fined and bell I know 641 00:41:26,565 --> 00:41:29,565 Speaker 4: that Belle has earned some type of income over the 642 00:41:29,645 --> 00:41:30,365 Speaker 4: last few years. 643 00:41:30,525 --> 00:41:33,125 Speaker 1: And Belle could take it upon herself to. 644 00:41:33,085 --> 00:41:37,405 Speaker 4: Start contributing to that fine, to start making amends, to 645 00:41:38,285 --> 00:41:43,365 Speaker 4: take accountability and make things right. So that's disappointing that 646 00:41:44,165 --> 00:41:46,405 Speaker 4: she's not coming to the table and doing that. 647 00:41:47,045 --> 00:41:47,645 Speaker 1: Overall, the. 648 00:41:49,365 --> 00:41:54,325 Speaker 4: Justice system, I guess is quite broken in that sense 649 00:41:54,405 --> 00:41:58,845 Speaker 4: that there hasn't really been real justice. 650 00:42:00,205 --> 00:42:04,685 Speaker 2: She has managed to lay pretty low since everything happened. 651 00:42:05,645 --> 00:42:08,045 Speaker 2: We do know there was a story about five years 652 00:42:08,045 --> 00:42:11,005 Speaker 2: ago that came out that she trying to integrate herself 653 00:42:11,245 --> 00:42:15,245 Speaker 2: into the Ethiopian community in Melbourne and trying to raise 654 00:42:15,285 --> 00:42:17,885 Speaker 2: funds for them, almost kind of going down the same 655 00:42:18,005 --> 00:42:23,805 Speaker 2: kind of route of fundraising, and they found out cut 656 00:42:23,805 --> 00:42:26,565 Speaker 2: her out. It all kind of ended. But what did 657 00:42:26,605 --> 00:42:28,525 Speaker 2: you make of that? Of her kind of trying to 658 00:42:28,565 --> 00:42:29,885 Speaker 2: reinvent herself in that way. 659 00:42:30,885 --> 00:42:35,005 Speaker 4: I knew she would again, nothing that Bell does anymore 660 00:42:35,085 --> 00:42:38,885 Speaker 4: is shocking or surprising to me. This is been a 661 00:42:38,925 --> 00:42:46,045 Speaker 4: pattern she's been repeating basically her whole life, and I'm yeah, 662 00:42:46,205 --> 00:42:50,605 Speaker 4: it was really sad to see, especially for that community 663 00:42:50,645 --> 00:42:54,485 Speaker 4: that she was infiltrating. And I think there's also been 664 00:42:54,485 --> 00:42:59,005 Speaker 4: this narrative that bel really wants to kind of be 665 00:42:59,165 --> 00:43:01,525 Speaker 4: accepted by a community, she wants to fit in. 666 00:43:02,165 --> 00:43:03,685 Speaker 1: But like she could go join. 667 00:43:03,525 --> 00:43:09,525 Speaker 4: A book club, you know, like there are spaces is 668 00:43:10,045 --> 00:43:13,805 Speaker 4: you know she could go join a sporting team. There 669 00:43:13,845 --> 00:43:17,085 Speaker 4: are spaces that you can go to to be a 670 00:43:17,125 --> 00:43:21,645 Speaker 4: part of a community and feel accepted and feel like 671 00:43:21,685 --> 00:43:25,645 Speaker 4: you're part of something without having to take advantage of people. 672 00:43:26,645 --> 00:43:29,485 Speaker 2: Do you know much about what she's doing nowadays? 673 00:43:30,005 --> 00:43:31,325 Speaker 1: I don't know what she's up to. 674 00:43:31,885 --> 00:43:37,565 Speaker 4: Sometimes I hear little roomors, but I don't really pay 675 00:43:37,685 --> 00:43:39,245 Speaker 4: much attention to it. 676 00:43:39,485 --> 00:43:43,285 Speaker 1: But I'm sure she's looking at what her next hustle is. 677 00:43:44,805 --> 00:43:48,725 Speaker 2: You were the original whistleblower in this story, and the 678 00:43:48,765 --> 00:43:52,605 Speaker 2: reality is if you have tried to do what you 679 00:43:52,685 --> 00:43:57,085 Speaker 2: did in any other kind of environment, corporate, government, political, 680 00:43:58,285 --> 00:44:02,045 Speaker 2: you could have been prosecuted. Is that something that you 681 00:44:02,765 --> 00:44:04,205 Speaker 2: thought about at the time. 682 00:44:04,525 --> 00:44:09,045 Speaker 4: That there wasn't any kind of scenario where I wasn't 683 00:44:09,085 --> 00:44:12,725 Speaker 4: going to follow through with what I did if and 684 00:44:13,285 --> 00:44:17,685 Speaker 4: this actually hasn't been the first time I've been a whistleblower. 685 00:44:18,405 --> 00:44:22,605 Speaker 4: If I see something that's wrong, I can't turn a blind. 686 00:44:22,325 --> 00:44:23,605 Speaker 1: Eye to it. 687 00:44:23,605 --> 00:44:27,725 Speaker 4: It's very discouraging for a lot of I know a 688 00:44:27,725 --> 00:44:30,165 Speaker 4: lot of people have struggled to come forward and tell 689 00:44:30,165 --> 00:44:35,605 Speaker 4: the truth on different things because people have been reprimanded 690 00:44:35,805 --> 00:44:39,525 Speaker 4: and prosecuted for speaking up and telling the truth. It 691 00:44:39,885 --> 00:44:42,725 Speaker 4: is a very challenging thing to do and it it 692 00:44:42,725 --> 00:44:46,685 Speaker 4: can be a scary thing to do, especially you know, 693 00:44:47,045 --> 00:44:54,045 Speaker 4: when there's other interests at play, if companies are profiting, so, yeah, 694 00:44:55,405 --> 00:44:59,485 Speaker 4: whistleblowers can easily be silenced and be scared away from 695 00:45:00,165 --> 00:45:03,525 Speaker 4: trying to come forward and tell the truth. Yeah, it 696 00:45:03,605 --> 00:45:08,365 Speaker 4: was just it just wasn't in my nature to not 697 00:45:08,445 --> 00:45:10,925 Speaker 4: do that, to not align my values, to just stand 698 00:45:10,965 --> 00:45:14,405 Speaker 4: by and let something bad happen. 699 00:45:15,085 --> 00:45:19,285 Speaker 2: Are there any protections in place for whistle blowers in Australia. 700 00:45:19,325 --> 00:45:21,805 Speaker 2: I know it's an area that you feel quite passionately about. 701 00:45:23,205 --> 00:45:26,965 Speaker 4: Yeah, there have been legislation come into effect in the 702 00:45:27,005 --> 00:45:30,445 Speaker 4: last few years to protect whistle blowers, especially in the 703 00:45:30,485 --> 00:45:37,085 Speaker 4: workplace from retaliation. But it's only legislation and regulation and 704 00:45:37,165 --> 00:45:42,885 Speaker 4: law only can go so far when people or the 705 00:45:42,965 --> 00:45:47,565 Speaker 4: law or governments or workplaces are willing to enforce it 706 00:45:47,925 --> 00:45:50,845 Speaker 4: and make sure there's people really are protected. 707 00:45:51,685 --> 00:45:55,005 Speaker 2: For me, it feels like whistle blowing should be something 708 00:45:55,045 --> 00:46:00,045 Speaker 2: that we support because if there's wrongdoing going on in 709 00:46:00,125 --> 00:46:04,885 Speaker 2: certain institutions, surely we should know about it. The fact 710 00:46:04,885 --> 00:46:07,725 Speaker 2: that it's something that people might be scared about doing 711 00:46:07,725 --> 00:46:14,165 Speaker 2: because they could potentially criminal charges is insane. 712 00:46:14,645 --> 00:46:15,285 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. 713 00:46:15,445 --> 00:46:17,725 Speaker 4: I think I think a lot, a lot more work 714 00:46:17,765 --> 00:46:20,965 Speaker 4: can be done in this space to protect people coming 715 00:46:20,965 --> 00:46:24,325 Speaker 4: forward and telling the truth. And it is a very Yeah, 716 00:46:24,325 --> 00:46:27,805 Speaker 4: it is a very scary thing to take on. Like 717 00:46:27,845 --> 00:46:30,725 Speaker 4: I said earlier, there was one percent of me that 718 00:46:30,845 --> 00:46:35,245 Speaker 4: was still questioning myself, God, what if she doesn't have 719 00:46:35,325 --> 00:46:36,525 Speaker 4: cancer and I've got this all wrong? 720 00:46:36,685 --> 00:46:38,125 Speaker 1: And that's part of it. 721 00:46:38,445 --> 00:46:42,165 Speaker 4: Right, like that you see in the media and you 722 00:46:42,205 --> 00:46:46,605 Speaker 4: see in cases that people haven't been protected, and then 723 00:46:46,685 --> 00:46:50,685 Speaker 4: so that makes you question yourself in many ways. It 724 00:46:50,725 --> 00:46:53,725 Speaker 4: makes you question do I really know the truth? Or 725 00:46:54,485 --> 00:46:56,725 Speaker 4: am I going to be safe to come forward? 726 00:46:58,565 --> 00:47:01,365 Speaker 2: What are you doing with your life now? Has being 727 00:47:01,445 --> 00:47:07,005 Speaker 2: involved in this in whistle blowing, in uncovering kind of 728 00:47:07,045 --> 00:47:10,885 Speaker 2: the scam that was Bell Gibson. Has that changed your 729 00:47:10,925 --> 00:47:13,965 Speaker 2: life and your kind of goals in life in terms 730 00:47:14,005 --> 00:47:15,245 Speaker 2: of what you want to give back? 731 00:47:16,045 --> 00:47:19,645 Speaker 4: Yeah, it definitely led me down a path that I 732 00:47:19,845 --> 00:47:23,165 Speaker 4: may not have gone down if I hadn't gone. 733 00:47:22,925 --> 00:47:23,965 Speaker 1: Through what I did with Bell. 734 00:47:24,485 --> 00:47:28,685 Speaker 4: I ended up moving and working in the outback with 735 00:47:29,245 --> 00:47:34,165 Speaker 4: remote Indigenous communities, working on policy and as a financial 736 00:47:34,205 --> 00:47:40,725 Speaker 4: counselor preventing economic abuse against Indigenous people in the outback 737 00:47:41,045 --> 00:47:47,085 Speaker 4: because unfortunately those communities are actually targeted a lot by scams. 738 00:47:47,925 --> 00:47:50,925 Speaker 4: So while I was out there doing that work, I 739 00:47:51,045 --> 00:47:57,045 Speaker 4: was doing financial literacy education, working with regulators to tighten 740 00:47:57,485 --> 00:48:03,445 Speaker 4: regulation and laws around predatory payday lenders that were targeting 741 00:48:03,525 --> 00:48:08,205 Speaker 4: Indigenous people. Since then, I've gone on to work for 742 00:48:08,565 --> 00:48:13,525 Speaker 4: basically one of in Australia's only social impact finance fund 743 00:48:13,605 --> 00:48:17,565 Speaker 4: that provides capital to Indigenous people wanting to start a 744 00:48:17,605 --> 00:48:20,765 Speaker 4: business or grow their business because they have a lot 745 00:48:20,805 --> 00:48:25,645 Speaker 4: of challenges accessing capital, especially from mainstream banks. 746 00:48:26,205 --> 00:48:27,245 Speaker 1: They can be. 747 00:48:27,805 --> 00:48:33,925 Speaker 4: Yes discouraged from accessing capital from those avenues. So yeah, 748 00:48:33,165 --> 00:48:37,245 Speaker 4: it's it's something that's very important to me to do 749 00:48:37,365 --> 00:48:41,085 Speaker 4: to do work that's very meaningful and impactful and that 750 00:48:41,165 --> 00:48:46,205 Speaker 4: can help people, and I especially yeah, I especially love 751 00:48:46,285 --> 00:48:49,645 Speaker 4: to do work where I can give people a voice 752 00:48:49,925 --> 00:48:53,645 Speaker 4: that aren't able to necessarily use their own voice, and 753 00:48:54,485 --> 00:48:59,165 Speaker 4: especially prevent or stop people being taken advantage of, because 754 00:48:59,165 --> 00:49:04,045 Speaker 4: that's just it's something I really, I really can't stand. 755 00:49:04,885 --> 00:49:07,445 Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of buzz right now everyone's 756 00:49:07,485 --> 00:49:11,805 Speaker 2: talking about Bell, but it was nearly a decade ago 757 00:49:12,445 --> 00:49:16,805 Speaker 2: that all this happened. Do you think about it often anymore? 758 00:49:18,165 --> 00:49:18,245 Speaker 3: No? 759 00:49:18,525 --> 00:49:23,445 Speaker 4: I haven't. Over the years, I don't really think about 760 00:49:23,485 --> 00:49:27,205 Speaker 4: it too much. I've already given so much energy and 761 00:49:28,405 --> 00:49:32,165 Speaker 4: mental capacity to all of this. I did film for 762 00:49:32,685 --> 00:49:36,925 Speaker 4: a documentary that's coming out in Netflix in a few weeks, 763 00:49:37,285 --> 00:49:38,165 Speaker 4: so I was. 764 00:49:38,125 --> 00:49:38,965 Speaker 1: Involved with that. 765 00:49:39,765 --> 00:49:42,645 Speaker 4: I mean, I mean I have reflected on it at times. 766 00:49:42,845 --> 00:49:47,725 Speaker 4: I especially right now with how big the story has 767 00:49:47,765 --> 00:49:51,565 Speaker 4: gotten again, well, it's actually gotten even bigger than ever before. 768 00:49:52,325 --> 00:49:56,125 Speaker 4: And as much as I can't forgive Belle, I can't 769 00:49:56,165 --> 00:50:02,845 Speaker 4: help but think that this would maybe be quite difficult 770 00:50:02,965 --> 00:50:08,325 Speaker 4: for her, and given you know she is a troubled person, 771 00:50:09,405 --> 00:50:12,765 Speaker 4: I do wonder about her mental health at this time 772 00:50:12,845 --> 00:50:16,605 Speaker 4: and the whole time, actually, and. 773 00:50:18,445 --> 00:50:20,805 Speaker 1: I do hope that she is okay at the end 774 00:50:20,845 --> 00:50:21,445 Speaker 1: of the day. 775 00:50:21,485 --> 00:50:24,485 Speaker 2: So you do still have empathy for her in amongst 776 00:50:24,525 --> 00:50:25,605 Speaker 2: all of the younger. 777 00:50:26,005 --> 00:50:30,925 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, Belle is still human at the end 778 00:50:30,965 --> 00:50:37,765 Speaker 4: of the day, a very complex, complicated, troubled human. And 779 00:50:38,925 --> 00:50:42,405 Speaker 4: I actually just hope that she can eventually learn from 780 00:50:42,445 --> 00:50:48,485 Speaker 4: all this and evolve from it and make amends. So yeah, 781 00:50:48,525 --> 00:50:50,365 Speaker 4: I mean that is what I hope for. 782 00:50:51,205 --> 00:50:52,805 Speaker 2: Do you think she can though, Do you think she 783 00:50:52,805 --> 00:50:54,725 Speaker 2: can actually redeem herself? 784 00:50:55,645 --> 00:50:58,525 Speaker 4: I think it will be difficult in the public eye. 785 00:50:58,805 --> 00:51:01,725 Speaker 4: I think the public will probably have a difficult time 786 00:51:01,925 --> 00:51:07,325 Speaker 4: for giving her, and that's understandable. But I hope she 787 00:51:07,365 --> 00:51:11,685 Speaker 4: can redeem herself, just for herself, even in her personal life. 788 00:51:11,725 --> 00:51:14,725 Speaker 4: I hope she can evolve and learn from this and 789 00:51:15,725 --> 00:51:21,005 Speaker 4: not do something like this again in any capacity. So yeah, 790 00:51:21,205 --> 00:51:26,245 Speaker 4: it's very wishful thinking to think that there could be 791 00:51:26,285 --> 00:51:27,005 Speaker 4: some redemption. 792 00:51:32,205 --> 00:51:35,405 Speaker 2: Thanks to Chanelle for telling us her story. True Crime 793 00:51:35,405 --> 00:51:38,765 Speaker 2: Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and produced by 794 00:51:38,805 --> 00:51:42,325 Speaker 2: me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by 795 00:51:42,405 --> 00:51:45,325 Speaker 2: Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back 796 00:51:45,405 --> 00:51:49,525 Speaker 2: next week. With a very interesting true crime conversation with 797 00:51:49,645 --> 00:51:51,885 Speaker 2: the anonymous host of case file