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Speaker 1: So much you're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and borders

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, Spillers, this is

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Speaker 2: Laura popping in to say that because it's a public

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Speaker 2: holiday in Australia today, we don't have a new episode,

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Speaker 2: but we didn't want to leave you with a spill

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Speaker 2: shaped hole in your hearts, and so we're re sharing

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Speaker 2: one of our favorite episodes from the last year, which

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Speaker 2: is the best true crime documentaries of all time that

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Speaker 2: you haven't watched yet. So true crime documentaries have always

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Speaker 2: been a huge cornerstone of pop culture and entertainment, and

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Speaker 2: in the last year we've seen so many new releases

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Speaker 2: in the pop culture genre, including The Menandez Brothers, which

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Speaker 2: set off a whole chain of events in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: and so it got us thinking about how big the

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Speaker 2: appetite is for true crime documentaries and how many people

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Speaker 2: are always searching for new recommendations. So for this episode

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Speaker 2: we actually brought in i would say an expert in

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Speaker 2: the true crime documentary for Jemma Bath, who was the

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Speaker 2: host of our True Crime Conversations podcast, joins Emily Vernon

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Speaker 2: and I in this episode, and we go through the

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Speaker 2: most intense true crime documentaries we've ever seen, the stories

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Speaker 2: behind them, what the real life outcomes were, where to

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Speaker 2: watch them, And So if you're just kind of dabbling

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Speaker 2: in the true crime field and you're looking for some

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Speaker 2: more recommendations, this episode is for you. And if you're

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Speaker 2: a true crime broff and you think you've watched everything,

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Speaker 2: I guarantee you there'd be some recommendations in here that

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Speaker 2: are new to you. So please enjoy the best true

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Speaker 2: crime documentaries of all time that you haven't watched yet.

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Speaker 3: From Mom and Maya. Welcome to the spill your daily

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Speaker 3: pop culture fix.

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Speaker 2: I'm m urmam and I'm Laura Brodnick, and we have

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Speaker 2: a very special Friday episode for you spillers. So last month,

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Speaker 2: Brian Murphy released a little series on Netflix that you

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Speaker 2: might have heard of called Monsters. The Lyle and Eric

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Speaker 2: Menandez Story, which told the true story of brothers Life

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Speaker 2: and Eric Menendez, who fatally shot their parents in their

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Speaker 2: Beverly Hills home in nineteen eighty nine, and during the

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Speaker 2: very extensive trial, a lot of information came out about

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Speaker 2: their parents abusing them really captured international headlines at the time.

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Speaker 2: That story has really come back into public view. And

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Speaker 2: then recently the Menendez Brothers documentary also came out on Netflix.

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Speaker 3: Netflix just competing with each other.

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Speaker 2: Well exactly. Well, there was so much backlash that that

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Speaker 2: Ryan Murphy series had sensationalized the story and made up

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Speaker 2: different facts, even though it was billed as a drama.

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Speaker 2: So they had this documentary which then interviewed both of

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Speaker 2: the brothers in prison, also had new interviews with a

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Speaker 2: family member and their prosecutor, and once again people are

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Speaker 2: really delving into the whole true crime aspect of this show.

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Speaker 2: So in honor of this story that has captured everyone's

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Speaker 2: imaginations once again, today's episode of The Spill is dedicated

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Speaker 2: to the very best true crime documentaries and a few

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Speaker 2: haven't heard of. And as everyone listening knows, I'm not

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Speaker 2: really a true crime girl, so don't worry, I am

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Speaker 2: stepping aside, and instead we have brought in the master

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Speaker 2: of this genre, someone who was across all the ins

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Speaker 2: and outs. It's gem Bath, host of true crime conversations.

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Speaker 1: Hello, what an intro? But yes, I am true crime obsessed.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so you have the very best recommendations because it

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Speaker 2: is your job to watch pretty much every true crime

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Speaker 2: documentary it is.

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Speaker 1: And I have watched both Monsters and the actual documentary

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Speaker 1: and everything else in between.

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Speaker 2: Did you have a favorite between them? Which one captured

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Speaker 2: your imagination?

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Speaker 1: So I watched Monsters first and felt a bit icky

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Speaker 1: the whole time I was watching it, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: properly know the story. So because it happened in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm a nineties baby. Yeah, I wasn't across.

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Speaker 2: It you were alive, No exactly, but.

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Speaker 1: We all keep it going anyway. So I watched Monsters fresh,

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Speaker 1: not really knowing the story, and I felt a bit

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Speaker 1: icky about it, and I was like, why do I

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Speaker 1: feel like this? And so I jumped immediately into the

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Speaker 1: documentary and then I went, oh, okay, now I get it.

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Speaker 1: So look, Monsters has a great cast, it's really well shot.

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Speaker 1: It's a great watch. But I think it's a very

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Speaker 1: quite mean telling of that story. It's also very sexy.

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Speaker 1: It's sexy and there's a lot of like innuendo of

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Speaker 1: the brothers being incestuous, which I've literally just gotten out

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Speaker 1: of an interview with one of the journalists who's been

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Speaker 1: covering this story from the very start, he said, that

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Speaker 1: is categorically not true. Yes, So it's one of those

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Speaker 1: cases of where you get a real story and then

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Speaker 1: you kind of like boost it and sensationalize it and

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Speaker 1: almost cartoon advise it. And these are two men that

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Speaker 1: are still in prison, who are trying to get out

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Speaker 1: of prison. I don't love that. I don't love that vibe.

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Speaker 1: Whereas the documentary I thought was, you know, it's so

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Speaker 1: much it's not bias. It's a really kind of authentic

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Speaker 1: retelling of that story. So if you're gonna watch it,

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Speaker 1: I mean I recommend watching both because you kind of

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Speaker 1: get two sides of a coin and you can see

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Speaker 1: how the media can manipulate, you know, the way you

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Speaker 1: think about things. But documentary is definitely the most authentic retelling.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And that is why you're here today and while

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Speaker 2: we're doing this episode, because we have the best true

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Speaker 2: crime documentaries. If you've watched The Menandez Brothers and you're

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Speaker 2: looking for more options, Okay, So Emily and Jim will

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Speaker 2: both be bringing their recommendations today. Do you want to

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Speaker 2: kick us off, Jim?

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Speaker 1: Yes, My first recommendation is a four part documentary called

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Speaker 1: con Girl. Now you can watch this free on seven Plus.

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Speaker 1: Don't you love a free one?

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Speaker 3: I know I a one.

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Speaker 1: So con Girl follows the lies of Samantha as a party.

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Speaker 1: She is a serial Australian corn woman who has duped

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Speaker 1: hundreds of people all over the world. She has seventy

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Speaker 1: four that we know of different aliases. Seventy four I

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Speaker 1: think there's more. Having watched the documentary, I'm like, there's

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Speaker 1: no way, it's only seventy four.

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Speaker 2: So much ad men to keep track of.

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Speaker 1: To give her credit, she's very smart to be. I

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Speaker 1: like it because she runs a lot of these aliases

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Speaker 1: simultaneously and interjectson kind of mixes the cons in together.

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Speaker 1: It's actually a talent. She wasn't doing things that were

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Speaker 1: very criminal and ruining people's lives. To give you an example,

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Speaker 1: she's got Emily the Russian gymnast, who is like a

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Speaker 1: you know, a teenage girl. She was in her twenties

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Speaker 1: at the time. She's got Harper, the seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: o pair, so she's like looking after actual children pretending

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Speaker 1: to be a teenager. Anika the Swedish backpacker who's on

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Speaker 1: the run because her parents are international spies and She

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Speaker 1: like lures just normal everyday Australians a lot of the

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Speaker 1: time backpackers because they don't see the Australian headlines. They

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Speaker 1: don't really know her name at all, and she just

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Speaker 1: ruins these people's lives, emotionally ruins them.

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Speaker 2: So do you mean meeting them like in personal? Its

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Speaker 2: was all done online person.

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Speaker 3: So she puts on the accent and everything.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if she put an accent on for

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Speaker 1: the Swedish backpacker, but she literally meets these people in

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Speaker 1: real life, like I know that she met Emmy, who

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Speaker 1: she duped with anaka the Swedish backpacker you know, at

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Speaker 1: a hostel in Sydney and then took her on these

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Speaker 1: crazy few months where she made Emmy go on the

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Speaker 1: run with her. She made them stay in a safe

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Speaker 1: house which was which was a shipping container in her

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Speaker 1: dad's backyard, which Emmy had no idea about. She thought

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Speaker 1: she was literally on the run in some police safe house.

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Speaker 1: Then she convinced her to go to Canada with her,

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Speaker 1: and eventually what kind of tripped her up in that

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Speaker 1: roos was they were at a hostel in Canada and

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Speaker 1: two Swedish backpackers saw that she'd written she was Sweden,

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Speaker 1: so came and spoke to her in Swedish and she

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Speaker 1: couldn't say she couldn't speak it back, so that's what.

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Speaker 1: So eventually her jups are undone, but often it's years later.

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Speaker 1: There's one jupe where she was in Sydney and she

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Speaker 1: pretended to be a teenage abuse victim and she went

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Speaker 1: to a home for vulnerable children and they taught her

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Speaker 1: for an entire year how to speak, They taught her

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Speaker 1: for an entire year how to read and write, thinking

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Speaker 1: that she was a fourteen year old abuse victim and

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Speaker 1: she wasn't.

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Speaker 3: So what was she getting out of this?

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Speaker 1: This is the wild part of it. She doesn't get

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Speaker 1: anything from it. She doesn't financially gain, so she's not

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Speaker 1: duping hoot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I thought even say she was grifting, because

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Speaker 2: I've obviously heard her name, and I've read some of

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Speaker 2: the headlines, but I had never delved into what you're

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Speaker 2: saying this documentary has, which is all these crazy stories.

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Speaker 2: But I always assumed there was some sort of monetary gain,

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Speaker 2: that she was grifting these people out of money or something.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she gains monetarily a little bit, so she'll

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Speaker 1: still an iPad here or there, and she gets accommodation

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Speaker 1: and food and bits like that, but that doesn't appear

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Speaker 1: to be her end goal. I don't really know what

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Speaker 1: her goal to deceiving people exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One of the psychiatrists in this docu series says that

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Speaker 1: from what they can gather, she is addicted to the deception,

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Speaker 1: so she's just addicted to lying. And they did kind

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Speaker 1: of look at a few possible diagnoses, so things like

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Speaker 1: multiple personality disorder munshousens because she does kind of pretend

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Speaker 1: to be sick a lot, and she does as she

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Speaker 1: gets older and can't kind of act as a teenager anymore,

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Speaker 1: involve children who then she makes them act like they're sick.

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Speaker 1: The reason I'm recommending it is because I've watched a

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Speaker 1: lot of true crime, and this is one of the

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Speaker 1: wildest stories I have ever seen, like ever seen on screen,

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Speaker 1: because usually when someone's committing crimes like this, it's for

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Speaker 1: a reason for like gain, they're trying to gain money

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Speaker 1: or fame or but she just I think she's a

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Speaker 1: very sick woman, Like she's obviously got a lot going on,

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Speaker 1: but she's ruining people's lives across the world. The reason

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Speaker 1: that we all don't know her name and her face

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Speaker 1: is because she is very good at avoiding photos and videos,

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Speaker 1: so there's not a lot out there, so she's not

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Speaker 1: plastered everywhere like you would think. After fifteen years of

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Speaker 1: doing this, you know, she.

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Speaker 3: Sounds like who does she sound like Emily in that

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Speaker 3: movie A Simple Favor?

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Speaker 2: Oh Blake Lively's character. I mean, that was only one

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Speaker 2: main grift, but it does sound like this is like

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Speaker 2: a like if Ryan Murphy hears about this, she's going

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Speaker 2: to be making a sexy, a sexy series all about this,

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Speaker 2: and he's gonna come Kim Kardashi and you just know it.

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Speaker 1: I think if this series was on Netflix it would

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Speaker 1: go off absolutely because it's so gripping. The way it's

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Speaker 1: told is brilliant. The documentary makers have done an incredible job.

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Speaker 1: It took them two years to kind of piece together

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Speaker 1: this story. I've written about Samantha over the years. I've

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Speaker 1: kind of dipped in and out of her story, but

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Speaker 1: because it's so complicated, I didn't like fully invest in it,

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Speaker 1: and so watching this four part documentary you properly get

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Speaker 1: to kind of unravel the extent of the crimes, and

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Speaker 1: I feel so much more invested in it because I

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Speaker 1: can finally understand it as much as you can understand

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Speaker 1: someone with seventy four A listeners. I think everyone needs

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Speaker 1: to watch this. Every Australian needs to watch this one

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Speaker 1: so that you don't get duped by Samantha as a

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Speaker 1: party because she's not stopping.

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Speaker 3: Wait, she's still out there.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, she's in the office right now. She's been

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Speaker 1: to prison multiple times.

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Speaker 3: Do we know what she looks like? Would you we

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Speaker 3: know what she looks like?

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Speaker 2: Because if anyone's going to fall for.

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Speaker 1: A correct she's currently in prison, but she's eligible for parole.

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Speaker 1: And she's been in prison multiple times, sometimes for like

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Speaker 1: a year, two years at a time, and when she

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Speaker 1: gets out she does exactly the same thing. She refuses

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Speaker 1: psychiatric help, she does her prison time, she comes back out,

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Speaker 1: she does it again. And she's thirty six now, she's

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Speaker 1: been doing it.

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Speaker 3: She's so young, she's.

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Speaker 1: Been doing it since she was probably early twenties, teenager.

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Speaker 1: So I don't think she's stopping. The only way we

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Speaker 1: stop her is by getting her face out there so

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Speaker 1: that people aren't duped. It's just a fascinating story. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I still don't understand it after watching it, but I

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Speaker 1: just think everyone needs to watch it. It's so well done.

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Speaker 2: Oh amazing on seven plus right and seven plus free.

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Speaker 2: How Emily, are you going to top that? No? Well,

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Speaker 2: look on your face, you look so shaken to your

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Speaker 2: course right, I want.

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Speaker 3: To leave the studio and watch it right now.

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Speaker 2: If you hear a door slams because EM's left the studio. Okay,

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Speaker 2: but what is your true crime documentary recommendation?

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Speaker 3: The first one I want to recommend is one that's

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Speaker 3: probably the most recent out of all of our recommendations.

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Speaker 3: It's called Sweet Bobby and it's on Netflix. I think

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Speaker 3: you guys might have heard it because it was originally

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Speaker 3: a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Podcast went viral, It was everywhere, and it was quite

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Speaker 1: a few years ago though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like the best podcast ever. It is

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Speaker 3: one of the biggest catfishing cases ever. So it's about

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Speaker 3: this woman named Krat who was catfished for eighty years

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Speaker 3: by a man who she thought was a man.

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Speaker 1: And this was an online one.

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Speaker 2: Okay, this wasn't online. That's slightly more understandable.

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Speaker 3: It is so intense because I feel like there's always

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Speaker 3: a bias for people who get catfish, like there's always

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Speaker 3: a voice in people's hands. It was like, how could

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Speaker 3: you possibly let that happen? And then you listen to

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Speaker 3: this podcast and watch this documentary, it's just like a

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Speaker 3: one party and you're like, this could have been anyone.

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Speaker 3: Like her life was ruined. It happened throughout her entire thirties.

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Speaker 3: It started in her early thirties. It like she found

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Speaker 3: out she was catfished when she was thirty nine and

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Speaker 3: now she's just like living this life trying to shine

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Speaker 3: light on like the victims of catfishing is so intense.

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Speaker 3: So what happened was in her early thirties, got a

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Speaker 3: friend request from a man named Bobby, who she kind

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Speaker 3: of knew because they were both part of the same

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Speaker 3: sick community in London. One of her younger cousins, Simran,

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Speaker 3: was dating his brother, so she's like, okay, this is

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Speaker 3: a familiar person and they started talking. The issue was

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Speaker 3: was that both of them were in relationships at the time,

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Speaker 3: but they couldn't stop this kind of romantic connection from evolving.

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Speaker 3: They eventually broke up with their partners and just decided

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Speaker 3: to be in a relationship together and then things started

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Speaker 3: getting really weird. Every time she wanted to like meet

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Speaker 3: up with him or hang out with him, something went wrong,

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Speaker 3: and not just wrong as in like I can't make it,

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Speaker 3: but like crazy wrong, to the point where like he

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Speaker 3: was saying, I've been shot, I'm in witness protection, I'm

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Speaker 3: in the hospital. My heart's about to stop beating Jesus.

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Speaker 3: And then she had to like figure out how to

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Speaker 3: deal with all of this. She's obviously like so distraught

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Speaker 3: because like a man, she's like in a relationship with this.

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Speaker 3: Going through all of this, the catfisher made multiple profiles.

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Speaker 3: I think it was said that it was made over

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Speaker 3: sixty profiles of like just connections. So like quote unquote,

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Speaker 3: Bobby was pulling Kirat into these like family group conversations

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Speaker 3: that had like seventeen other people who were also.

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Speaker 1: Taught sounding like Samantha as a party Samantha.

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Speaker 3: If you've listened to the podcast or watched this, you

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Speaker 3: would know that the person who was catfishing Kirat was

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Speaker 3: her younger cousin, Simran.

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Speaker 1: I forgot about that.

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Speaker 2: I did not know that this is new information to me.

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Speaker 3: That is so brutal, so brutal, and Simran because she

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Speaker 3: was much younger actually started catfishing krat when she was

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Speaker 3: a teen. Malee cousin, female cousin when she was a teen.

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Speaker 2: But I guess maybe she just started it and she

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Speaker 2: got carried away. But how long eight year?

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Speaker 3: Eight years?

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Speaker 2: That's no, that's too long.

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Speaker 3: Eight years. I mean she.

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Speaker 2: Shouldn't have at the first place. But like, at what

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Speaker 2: point are you, like, I have to get myself out

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Speaker 2: of this situation.

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Speaker 3: There's no laws in place. That's saying care AT's a victim.

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Speaker 3: The victims that the police are saying is Bobby and

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Speaker 3: Bobby's wife because they're the ones who were being used

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Speaker 3: as cat.

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Speaker 2: Being impersonated, which is, yeah, that's really And does the

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Speaker 2: documentary have interviews with all these people? Is that how

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Speaker 2: they tell a story?

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Speaker 3: It has interviews with herat, Bobby, Bobby's wife, Herat's parents.

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Speaker 3: They don't interview like they wanted to interview sim Ran

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Speaker 3: but she declined. But they did have an actress. This

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Speaker 3: is kind of sad. They did have an actress stand

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Speaker 3: in with Like when they were showing kind of screenshots

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Speaker 3: of Facebook and stuff, but because they were like screenshots

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Speaker 3: and photos of like Facebook images, people thought the actress

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Speaker 3: was the real she's been on TikTok for the last

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Speaker 3: few days, going, guys, it's not me.

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Speaker 1: I'm an actress.

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Speaker 3: I'm an actress. But it is wild. And it's also

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Speaker 3: wild because apparently most catfishing cases are people that are

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Speaker 3: really close to you.

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Speaker 2: Well, they would have to be the information, right, crazy,

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Speaker 2: Where are we watching this?

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Speaker 3: You're watching this on Netflix?

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Speaker 1: Okay than the podcast.

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Speaker 3: No, I think the podcast was better. So I think

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Speaker 3: the podcast was better, but there's more information now that

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Speaker 3: it's been a few years, I think because it's on screen.

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Speaker 3: Caret's very reserved because they also which I feel terrible

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Speaker 3: for her. They play like the voice note she sends

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Speaker 3: him out loud in front of her, like doting on him, going,

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Speaker 3: I love you so much, I can't wait to see you.

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Speaker 3: I can't wait to raise his baby with you, like

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Speaker 3: no one will ever.

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Speaker 1: Separate us while she's sitting in the room.

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Speaker 3: While she's sitting in the room.

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Speaker 1: That's the kind of documentary making I don't like, but

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Speaker 1: I'm still gonna watch it.

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Speaker 3: It is so good and to the point where like

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Speaker 3: even like her other cousins and stuff are like calling

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Speaker 3: Bobby and giving him voice memos, and she'll never get

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Speaker 3: a voice memo back because he's in hospital and he

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Speaker 3: has something wrong with his throat, then he can't do it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the podcast was that long ago. If

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Speaker 1: you like me and you have a horrible memory, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'd forgotten that it was reacting even though I listened

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Speaker 1: to it. I honestly think it was like maybe eight

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Speaker 1: years ago, so long ago that I've kind of forgotten

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Speaker 1: it. It was only when you started telling the story that

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Speaker 1: it kind of was like so, I think even faces

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Speaker 1: to there. That's why I'm like, I need to rewatch.

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Speaker 1: I need to watch even though I've listened to the potty.

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Speaker 1: My next recommendation is a little bit darker than both

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Speaker 1: of the ones, even though they were both crimes. Obviously

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about no one died, yes, exactly. The

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Speaker 1: documentary I'm talking about is called The Fire that Took Her.

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Speaker 1: It's from twenty twenty two, and I've only recently watched

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Speaker 1: it and I can't scare it. I can't stop thinking

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Speaker 1: about it. It follows the story of a mum of two,

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Speaker 1: her name's Judy Malanowski, who was set on fire by

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Speaker 1: her partner outside of a petrol station in Ohio. In

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, she suffered burns to ninety percent of her body,

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Speaker 1: and she was so injured that her own daughters didn't

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Speaker 1: recognize her. Her sister walked into the hospital room and vomited.

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Speaker 1: Like it was she was just so so so injured.

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Speaker 1: You could like all of her facial features had kind

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Speaker 1: of melted. It was just refick. Doctors didn't expect her

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Speaker 1: to survive hours. She survived for two years, and in

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Speaker 1: that time she changed history. That's a bit of a

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Speaker 1: hook for you. But she was the first person in

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Speaker 1: history to give testimony, so three hours worth proper court

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Speaker 1: set up cross defence obviously from a hospital bed via

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Speaker 1: court link. At her own murder trial.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh god.

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Speaker 1: So she was giving this testimony knowing that she probably

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Speaker 1: wasn't going to survive and that this testimony would be

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Speaker 1: used to convict the man that had set her on fire.

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Speaker 2: Oh go, that is horrific.

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Speaker 1: Her own murder trial, her own murder trial. So it

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Speaker 1: took so many leaps to even get to that point,

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Speaker 1: Like legally this had never been done. They had to

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Speaker 1: go through all these legal loopholes to even allow her

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Speaker 1: to do that. And then once she died, she did

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Speaker 1: die in twenty seventeen, so two years after the attack.

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Speaker 1: They then had to go through all these loops again

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Speaker 1: to be able to show her testimony in court, and

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Speaker 1: it very nearly didn't happen. So she nearly went through

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Speaker 1: all of that for nothing. And the documentary maker I've

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Speaker 1: actually interviewed her and she was like, it was probably

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Speaker 1: that three hours of testimony that was her downfall. It

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Speaker 1: made her so unwell because it took so much effort.

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Speaker 1: This is a woman that had seven cardiac arrests, sixty

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Speaker 1: different surgeries, she was in a coma for seven months,

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Speaker 1: like she was never not in pain. But it's fascinating

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Speaker 1: because I mean, as someone who works in true crime,

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Speaker 1: I do a lot of stories about women that are

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Speaker 1: murdered by former or current partners. I mean, it happens

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Speaker 1: every week in Australia. And to hear this woman was

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Speaker 1: able to actually explain to a court what he did,

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Speaker 1: what he looked like as he did it, how he reacted,

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Speaker 1: how I reacted, how it felt to be burnt alive

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Speaker 1: like it was. She was so remarkable, like she was

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Speaker 1: doing this. They had to reduce her pain meds so

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Speaker 1: that she could even do it, so she was in

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Speaker 1: so much pain as she did it. It's just it's

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Speaker 1: one of those documentaries that is so sensitively and well

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Speaker 1: made and telling a story like that. You know, we've

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Speaker 1: just talked about monsters. It's so so easy to sensationalize crime,

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Speaker 1: especially in today's world where true crime is like gobbled

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Speaker 1: up by audiences they absolutely love it, and this does

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Speaker 1: the opposite. He is so beautifully told and delicately told

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Speaker 1: in her whole family, like her daughters are involved, and

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Speaker 1: that was one part that I found super interesting. It's

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Speaker 1: the first time I've heard the daughters of a victim

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Speaker 1: speak about the impact on their lives, so intimately. The

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Speaker 1: one statement I wanted to say was the youngest daughter

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Speaker 1: gets really really upset in an interview because she's like,

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Speaker 1: why does the daughter of her killer still get to

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Speaker 1: see him in prison? Like why is she allowed to

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Speaker 1: see her dad? That's not fair. He shouldn't be allowed

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Speaker 1: to see family. I'm not allowed to see mine, Like

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Speaker 1: that's heartbreaking. In it's not something i'd even thought about.

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Speaker 2: H Yeah, exactly.

430
00:21:02,264 --> 00:21:05,224
Speaker 1: It's just so so well done. It's a really hard watch, obviously,

431
00:21:06,064 --> 00:21:08,864
Speaker 1: but I highly recommend it. It's really well done.

432
00:21:08,984 --> 00:21:10,464
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love what you're saying about it being so

433
00:21:10,584 --> 00:21:13,264
Speaker 2: sensitively done, because I find that, as you're saying, there

434
00:21:13,304 --> 00:21:16,064
Speaker 2: are some elements of true crime where where the people

435
00:21:16,104 --> 00:21:18,544
Speaker 2: making it very dissens that I decided to it, or

436
00:21:18,584 --> 00:21:21,224
Speaker 2: I feel like it's inviting sometimes people to like revel

437
00:21:21,224 --> 00:21:24,984
Speaker 2: in someone else's pain when you present it as just entertainment.

438
00:21:25,064 --> 00:21:26,584
Speaker 2: But I feel like what you're saying here is this

439
00:21:26,624 --> 00:21:29,144
Speaker 2: one is more of just this one put her life

440
00:21:29,184 --> 00:21:31,544
Speaker 2: on the line to tell this story, and so it's

441
00:21:31,584 --> 00:21:33,864
Speaker 2: almost our duty to watch it and engage in it

442
00:21:33,984 --> 00:21:36,904
Speaker 2: and listen to what her words were. So yeah, I

443
00:21:36,984 --> 00:21:38,744
Speaker 2: definitely need to watch that one. And where can we

444
00:21:38,784 --> 00:21:40,184
Speaker 2: watch that gem Either.

445
00:21:39,984 --> 00:21:42,304
Speaker 1: Apple or Paramount. Highly highly recommend.

446
00:21:42,864 --> 00:21:46,224
Speaker 3: Okay, I have another really intense one.

447
00:21:46,304 --> 00:21:47,024
Speaker 1: It is true crime.

448
00:21:47,264 --> 00:21:49,144
Speaker 3: It is the topic crime. We probably should have broken

449
00:21:49,144 --> 00:21:52,784
Speaker 3: these up in different structure. So the other one I

450
00:21:52,864 --> 00:21:56,024
Speaker 3: chose was The Keepers on Netflix. Have either of you

451
00:21:56,144 --> 00:21:56,664
Speaker 3: watched it?

452
00:21:56,904 --> 00:21:59,184
Speaker 2: Well, obviously I'm gonna say no.

453
00:21:58,864 --> 00:22:02,024
Speaker 1: And I usually have watched it past, so enlighten me.

454
00:22:02,184 --> 00:22:05,744
Speaker 3: It's not necessarily the best documentary I've seen, but it's

455
00:22:05,744 --> 00:22:08,824
Speaker 3: the one that has stuck with me the longest and

456
00:22:08,864 --> 00:22:11,944
Speaker 3: has been ingrained in my brain since twenty seventeen when

457
00:22:11,944 --> 00:22:12,344
Speaker 3: it came out.

458
00:22:12,384 --> 00:22:13,264
Speaker 1: Oh wow that long.

459
00:22:13,504 --> 00:22:16,824
Speaker 3: Yeah, why, it's a lot. Okay, it's a lot. So

460
00:22:17,264 --> 00:22:20,784
Speaker 3: it explores the murder of a nun named Sister Kathy

461
00:22:20,904 --> 00:22:25,704
Speaker 3: Sessnik in nineteen sixty nine in Baltimore. And the longer

462
00:22:25,824 --> 00:22:30,184
Speaker 3: the series goes on it's seven episodes, the bigger the

463
00:22:30,224 --> 00:22:33,664
Speaker 3: investigation becomes, and all of this stuff just starts happening.

464
00:22:34,024 --> 00:22:37,864
Speaker 3: It goes into a huge investigation into the archdiocese and

465
00:22:37,984 --> 00:22:42,304
Speaker 3: legal authorities of the entire Baltimore State. So it jumps

466
00:22:42,304 --> 00:22:44,904
Speaker 3: from like the sixties to the nineties to present day.

467
00:22:45,544 --> 00:22:48,984
Speaker 3: And Sister Kathy in the sixties was an English teacher

468
00:22:49,024 --> 00:22:51,504
Speaker 3: and drama teacher at an all girls school in Baltimore.

469
00:22:51,824 --> 00:22:53,264
Speaker 3: And it was like one of those schools where like

470
00:22:53,304 --> 00:22:56,344
Speaker 3: a lot of nuns were teachers and like the principal,

471
00:22:56,624 --> 00:22:59,344
Speaker 3: and like the bigger people like were the priests. And

472
00:22:59,504 --> 00:23:02,184
Speaker 3: the priest at the school was named Joseph Maskell, and

473
00:23:02,184 --> 00:23:05,264
Speaker 3: he was also the school's counselor. So Sister Kathy was

474
00:23:05,384 --> 00:23:07,904
Speaker 3: very close to her students, like all the girls loved her,

475
00:23:08,304 --> 00:23:10,944
Speaker 3: and she began to suspect that Joseph as school, the

476
00:23:10,984 --> 00:23:14,784
Speaker 3: priest was sexually abusing them. She said, like he would

477
00:23:14,824 --> 00:23:17,944
Speaker 3: call them to his office during class, like over the speaker,

478
00:23:18,544 --> 00:23:21,864
Speaker 3: and then when the students returned to class, they apparently

479
00:23:21,904 --> 00:23:25,544
Speaker 3: were like very quiet, like head down, like just sitting

480
00:23:25,544 --> 00:23:28,704
Speaker 3: at their desk, not talking to anyone. Because suspicions grew

481
00:23:28,744 --> 00:23:31,664
Speaker 3: and she began to like ask questions, and then she

482
00:23:31,744 --> 00:23:32,264
Speaker 3: was murdered.

483
00:23:32,744 --> 00:23:34,664
Speaker 2: Oh god, So now we're jumping.

484
00:23:34,384 --> 00:23:37,664
Speaker 3: To nineteen ninety two, where a former student of Mescal

485
00:23:37,784 --> 00:23:41,224
Speaker 3: named Jean Wayner publicly accused him of sexually abusing her.

486
00:23:41,424 --> 00:23:43,864
Speaker 3: She also alleged that when she wanted to speak up

487
00:23:43,944 --> 00:23:47,224
Speaker 3: during the time the abuse was taking place, that Mascal

488
00:23:47,344 --> 00:23:49,984
Speaker 3: drove her to the woods where Sister Kathy's body was

489
00:23:50,144 --> 00:23:53,424
Speaker 3: decomposing and said, you see what happens when you say

490
00:23:53,424 --> 00:23:58,144
Speaker 3: bad things about people. So she stared into silence until

491
00:23:58,224 --> 00:23:58,864
Speaker 3: nineteen I was.

492
00:24:01,024 --> 00:24:03,104
Speaker 2: Sep again. This is why I only watched horror with

493
00:24:03,184 --> 00:24:05,824
Speaker 2: like demons and vampires, because I know that's not real.

494
00:24:05,864 --> 00:24:07,864
Speaker 2: I hope this is too close to her it guess what?

495
00:24:08,144 --> 00:24:08,544
Speaker 2: Oh god?

496
00:24:08,544 --> 00:24:11,464
Speaker 3: Okay, So Mescal was from moved from the ministry but

497
00:24:11,544 --> 00:24:15,544
Speaker 3: never convicted. He was internally sent for quote unquote treatment

498
00:24:16,184 --> 00:24:19,024
Speaker 3: and was told that he can't carry out priests like practices,

499
00:24:19,064 --> 00:24:22,384
Speaker 3: although he continued practicing as a psychologist until his death

500
00:24:22,424 --> 00:24:25,984
Speaker 3: stop it. He moved to Ireland and stuff. It was wild.

501
00:24:26,224 --> 00:24:29,544
Speaker 3: So now it's like the present time and so much

502
00:24:29,624 --> 00:24:32,544
Speaker 3: stuff has come to the surface about the connections and

503
00:24:32,664 --> 00:24:36,464
Speaker 3: power the archdiocese had at Baltimore in the time. It

504
00:24:36,504 --> 00:24:40,504
Speaker 3: was revealed that Maskew was accused of sexually assaulting a

505
00:24:40,544 --> 00:24:43,784
Speaker 3: young boy in nineteen sixty seven. The church found out

506
00:24:43,944 --> 00:24:46,184
Speaker 3: tried to hide it, which is why they just moved him.

507
00:24:46,584 --> 00:24:50,344
Speaker 3: So apparently during that time, like whenever priest did something

508
00:24:50,424 --> 00:24:53,024
Speaker 3: like that, they would just move them to a different parish.

509
00:24:53,144 --> 00:24:54,824
Speaker 3: So he was moved to the girls school, which is

510
00:24:54,864 --> 00:24:58,624
Speaker 3: what kind of like made the abuse so much worse. Also,

511
00:24:58,664 --> 00:25:00,864
Speaker 3: he had so many connections to the police. There have

512
00:25:00,944 --> 00:25:04,184
Speaker 3: been allegations of other young girl victims coming out saying

513
00:25:04,224 --> 00:25:07,264
Speaker 3: that the police were involved in some of the sexual

514
00:25:07,264 --> 00:25:09,664
Speaker 3: abuse and like the attacks, like they would drive them

515
00:25:09,664 --> 00:25:12,544
Speaker 3: to the woods and like all of them it was

516
00:25:12,624 --> 00:25:16,064
Speaker 3: just like so messed up, including like there's been like

517
00:25:16,104 --> 00:25:19,064
Speaker 3: allegations that the gynecologists that they send them to would

518
00:25:19,104 --> 00:25:20,464
Speaker 3: also sexually abuse them.

519
00:25:20,664 --> 00:25:23,264
Speaker 1: These kind of stories make me so angry because it's

520
00:25:23,304 --> 00:25:28,104
Speaker 1: not uncommon in these institutions, not just religious institutions. You know,

521
00:25:28,304 --> 00:25:30,544
Speaker 1: we've seen it in gymnastics, in like all sorts of

522
00:25:30,544 --> 00:25:33,944
Speaker 1: worlds where this kind of stuff is happening for decades

523
00:25:34,784 --> 00:25:39,544
Speaker 1: and then you know, eventually, once all the damage is done, tragic.

524
00:25:40,024 --> 00:25:42,064
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to the Spill today,

525
00:25:42,104 --> 00:25:46,664
Speaker 3: and thank you Jim for joining us amazing. If you

526
00:25:46,704 --> 00:25:49,104
Speaker 3: want to listen to more of Jem, please listen to

527
00:25:49,424 --> 00:25:53,304
Speaker 3: our podcast, True Crime Conversation. She always hosts the most

528
00:25:53,504 --> 00:25:56,344
Speaker 3: interesting people. She has a wealth of knowledge. We'll put

529
00:25:56,344 --> 00:25:58,544
Speaker 3: a link to that show in our show notes and

530
00:25:58,584 --> 00:26:00,304
Speaker 3: we will see you back here in your podcast feed

531
00:26:00,344 --> 00:26:01,424
Speaker 3: at three pm on Monday.

532
00:26:01,624 --> 00:26:10,504
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye m