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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of the land and waters that this

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Speaker 1: podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for parents who

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Speaker 2: don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We bring you the news,

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Speaker 2: the trends, the culture, and what parents are thinking about.

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Speaker 2: I'm Monique Bowley. I'm an eldest daughter. I am a

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Speaker 2: school captain and a sports captain.

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Speaker 1: I'm Stacey Hicks. I am also an eldest daughter, also

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Speaker 1: a school captain and was a prefect too.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Amelia last I'm a youngest child Type B

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Speaker 3: and was never even a prefect. And I'm feeling a

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Speaker 3: lot of stifling school captain energy here today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, we had a big response last week, didn't we

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Speaker 1: to the eldest Daughter conversation. You must have felt very

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Speaker 1: outnumbered by all the eldest daughtersts. And I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to wait for Tenaylor Swift's next song. I was the

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Speaker 1: school captain and that's so hard for me. I guess

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Speaker 1: I'm here to break the rules. Coming up on today's show,

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Speaker 1: some very well read people gave advice on how to

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Speaker 1: find more time for reading and it annoyed the hell

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Speaker 1: out of one of us. I'll let you guess which.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about some dads who are in

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Speaker 3: their feelings this week and why that's so unusual.

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Speaker 2: And there's a name for the period of life that

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Speaker 2: we're all in, where the wolves closing. We've got young

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Speaker 2: kids and careers and expectations.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the squeeze.

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Speaker 1: But first, there was a very awkward moment on Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift's publicity to our for her new album, The Life

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Speaker 1: of the show Girl, and I am the resident Swifty.

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Speaker 1: I feel it is my duty to bring it to

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Speaker 1: you today. This is BBC Radio two Scott Mills talking

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Speaker 1: to Taylor. Take a listen, Taylor, don't tell me this

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Speaker 1: is your last album?

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Speaker 2: What No?

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Speaker 5: I just saw some fast going well, she's going to

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Speaker 5: get married and there's going to last album.

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Speaker 1: An sharckingly offensive thing to say.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, it is not.

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Speaker 3: It's not why people get married.

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Speaker 1: No, exactly so.

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Speaker 3: That they can right as if Teleswift is ever going

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Speaker 3: to stop working.

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Speaker 1: I know it's the funniest thing. And I love that

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Speaker 1: he said. I'm seeing some people, some people are saying

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Speaker 1: that I don't think we've ever actually seen anyone say that.

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Speaker 4: That's so true.

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Speaker 2: I went deep into the annals of swifty fandom to

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Speaker 2: try and find who was saying this, and I can't

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Speaker 2: Stacy is it because the lyrics of her songs are

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Speaker 2: very sort of let's have kids and get married and

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Speaker 2: settled down.

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Speaker 1: She does have one song wish List where she does

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Speaker 1: talk about having a couple of kids and that life.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, every woman in music at the top

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Speaker 1: of her game right now is married or has children

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Speaker 1: like Beyonce Rihanna. I don't know why that's been put

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Speaker 1: onto tail.

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Speaker 3: To be fair, Rihanna has not released any new music

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Speaker 3: in a very long time.

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Speaker 4: That's true.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he's onto something, maybe she's going to slow down.

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Speaker 3: What I want to talk about today is the dads,

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Speaker 3: because the dads this week have been really in their

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Speaker 3: feelings and that's kind of unusual to hear dad's talk

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Speaker 3: about the challenges of being a dad. The first dad

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Speaker 3: that I want to bring to the table is George Clooney.

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Speaker 1: Oh hot dad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm always happy to bring him to the table.

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Speaker 1: Please bring him more.

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Speaker 3: I've mentioned on the show before that I once had

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Speaker 3: the chance to speak to him on the phone for

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Speaker 3: an hour for an interview, and he was just as

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Speaker 3: delightful as he appears. He's promoting his new movie, Jay

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Speaker 3: Kelly with Adam Samoa, and that movie is about a

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Speaker 3: guy in midlife who kind of comes to regret the

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Speaker 3: fact that he hasn't spent enough time with his children.

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Speaker 3: So he's been talking a lot on red carpets and

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Speaker 3: at premieres about how he achieves the juggle in his

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Speaker 3: life between work and family life. We never hear from

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Speaker 3: dads about the juggle. Let's hear what he had to

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Speaker 3: say about that to Fox Extra.

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Speaker 5: You know, I think you probably have these same conversations,

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Speaker 5: and most people we know in almost every industry had

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Speaker 5: the conversations of I wish I'd been able to spend

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Speaker 5: I wish I hadn't missed this thing that my kids

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Speaker 5: were doing, but I was working. And so it's coming

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Speaker 5: to terms with the sacrifice you make to succeed. You know,

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Speaker 5: I'm not that mass rush to succeed anymore. I've had

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Speaker 5: my career in many ways, and you know, things were

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Speaker 5: winding down in a way. So I get to be

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Speaker 5: home with my kids a lot, and it's fun. You know,

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Speaker 5: I'm still young. Enough that I can run around with them.

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Speaker 5: That's going away quickly. Well, I can still do it

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Speaker 5: right now, and so you know, I'm having a really

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Speaker 5: fun time.

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Speaker 3: I love this just as a quick refresher. Georgia's sixty four.

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Speaker 3: He's been married to his wife a mile for eleven years.

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Speaker 3: They celebrated their anniversary last month, and they have eight

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Speaker 3: year old twins, Alexander and Ella. Why isn't so rare

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Speaker 3: to hear dad's talk about the juggle moons?

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Speaker 2: We still act like dad's juggling is groundbreaking and mom's

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Speaker 2: juggling is just any other day of the week. I

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Speaker 2: think it feels rare because men are socialized to see

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Speaker 2: work as their identity and family is their hobby.

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Speaker 4: It's just flipping the script.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's probably also, in George's case, a

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Speaker 1: case for having children older, like that he can wind

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Speaker 1: down his career. Now. That's probably a reason that it

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Speaker 1: would be good for him to do that, because then

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Speaker 1: he's got that quality time with his kids not always

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Speaker 1: achievable for everyone.

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Speaker 3: And it is hard, this juggle. And we had another

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Speaker 3: dad talk about it this week, Prince William. He gave

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Speaker 3: a very revealing interview on a new travel show which

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Speaker 3: is hosted by Eugene Levy of Shit's Creek Fame. It's

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Speaker 3: on Apple TV. It's called The Reluctant Traveler, and he

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Speaker 3: opened up about what weighs on him.

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Speaker 6: History doesn't overwhelm you, Is there anything that does?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I think stuffing with family overwhelms me quite a bit.

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Speaker 6: You know, worry, your stress around family side of things,

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Speaker 6: that does overwhelm me quite a bit. But in terms of,

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Speaker 6: you know, doing the job and things like that, I

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Speaker 6: don't feel too overwhelmed by that.

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Speaker 3: You can tell that it's so hard for him to

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Speaker 3: talk about his private life. I kind of feel for

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Speaker 3: him in this clip.

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Speaker 2: I am obsessed with this episode. I'm obsessed with this

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Speaker 2: PR strategy. Why Eugene Levy and why a show called

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Speaker 2: The Reluctant Traveler such a weird PR move? So lots

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Speaker 2: of people are saying this is Wills at his most revealing.

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Speaker 2: He talks about the monarchy, He talks about how he

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Speaker 2: wants to bring change in, he talks about how important

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Speaker 2: his family is, and all of his pundits are saying

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Speaker 2: this is a side to Wills that we haven't seen before.

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Speaker 2: So my question is why Eugene Levy, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's because he's not part of the Royal Rota, so

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Speaker 2: he's not gonna get tough questions. He's a safe pair

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Speaker 2: of hands. He's Canadian. You know, Canada's part of the Commonwealth,

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Speaker 2: so it's probably some sort of like soft diplomacy to

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Speaker 2: give Canada an interview with Prince William. The reason I'm

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Speaker 2: obsessed with this he's so charismatic and charming. I cannot

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Speaker 2: believe it. He's so likable. He's writing a scooter, He's like,

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Speaker 2: I'm just a regular dad. He just shows enormous emotional range.

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Speaker 2: So he goes from really charming, funny, witty and quick

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Speaker 2: and then when he talks about his family, you can

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Speaker 2: see how difficult it is for him. I just I

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Speaker 2: loved it. I was obsessessed with it.

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Speaker 1: See the strategy worked on on She's into it.

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Speaker 4: Did it really did?

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Speaker 2: And I think what it's giving is a man who's

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Speaker 2: had therapy, and it's giving a man who's now a

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Speaker 2: dad and who is reflecting on how he was parented.

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Speaker 2: And there are some very pointed things he says in

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Speaker 2: this episode about the way that he was parented and

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Speaker 2: how he wants to be different. You've heard of burnout,

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Speaker 2: you've heard of the mental load. But there's a new

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Speaker 2: name for this particular period of life that so many

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Speaker 2: women in their thirties and forties are in, and it's

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Speaker 2: called the squeeze. Now, this is a term that economist

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Speaker 2: Carinthlo has coined. She's got a new book called Having

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Speaker 2: It All. She basically says, the squeeze is that particularly brutal,

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Speaker 2: exhausting stage of life when all the pressures converge on

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Speaker 2: you at once. This is particularly pertinent to me because Amelia,

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Speaker 2: I quit my job because of the square ease.

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Speaker 4: Am I fucked? Have I fucked myself?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: And I don't think you fucked yourself. I love this

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Speaker 3: term because it gives a name to something that is

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Speaker 3: such a familiar feeling, which is when you are feeling

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Speaker 3: maximum pressure at work and maximum pressure at home, and

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Speaker 3: there's a part of you that thinks, this is why

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Speaker 3: we used to have just one breadwinner in the household,

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Speaker 3: this is why we used to have just the dad

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Speaker 3: work because it was easier. If you sat down to

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Speaker 3: redesign the economic system, you would never have designed it

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Speaker 3: so that in women's fertile years, they are also being

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Speaker 3: asked to make enough money to pay for a mortgage

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Speaker 3: in Australia in twenty twenty five. What's really interesting about

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Speaker 3: this is how she came to this idea of the squeeze.

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Speaker 3: She went viral for an article in The Cut in August.

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Speaker 3: The headline was this economist crunched the numbers and stopped

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Speaker 3: dating men. So she took what she found out very personally.

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Speaker 3: She had a first chiallenge twenty seventeen. She was holding

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Speaker 3: down a very demanding academic job, and she kept finding

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Speaker 3: that the division of household labor between her and her

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Speaker 3: husband was consistently unfair. She was the primary breadwinner in

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Speaker 3: the relationship, and yet she was also having to do

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Speaker 3: the laundry and the administrative tasks and the cleaning of

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Speaker 3: the house. And so she decided it just wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to get better, so she left and, in her own words,

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Speaker 3: become a lesbian as an evidence based decision. So that's

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Speaker 3: really an example of heteropessimism, which is one response to

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Speaker 3: this idea of the squeeze, right Like one response is

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Speaker 3: just to say the problem is not structural, The problem

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Speaker 3: is just with being in heterosexual relationships.

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Speaker 1: But surely this is a problem not just for hetero couples, Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there are a lot of same sex couples,

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Speaker 1: all solo parents who would be saying this is the

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Speaker 1: same for me, Like we're both working so hard and

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Speaker 1: we're both parenting and in the trenches there. So I

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Speaker 1: do think there are a lot of people who are

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Speaker 1: feeling the squeeze at this point in their lives.

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Speaker 3: She is really quick to say that it's not the

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Speaker 3: only way to cope with this really objectively difficult period

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Speaker 3: of life. I think what she would say is careers

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Speaker 3: themselves are changing a lot, and what she wants you

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Speaker 3: to do now that you know about the squeeze is

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Speaker 3: look ahead to other women in your field, in your

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Speaker 3: industry and see whether or not they come through the squeeze,

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Speaker 3: and then advance. If you can't see role models of

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Speaker 3: older women doing what you want to do, that means

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Speaker 3: you need to change course. That's part of the whole

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Speaker 3: point of the squeeze is like, at this point in

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Speaker 3: your life, at this pivotal moment, make sure that when

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Speaker 3: you come out the other end of this, you have

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Speaker 3: a path forward in what you want to do, because

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Speaker 3: if you don't, you need to think about doing something else.

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Speaker 1: I think what you say, Mom's about quitting your job

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Speaker 1: when you feel that squeeze. We're seeing that a lot

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Speaker 1: more with Like I know a lot of women have

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Speaker 1: quit their jobs even without something to necessarily go to next,

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Speaker 1: but because they go, well, something's got to give, Like

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Speaker 1: I'm getting squeezed. I can't return the children. The only

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Speaker 1: thing that you can let go of there is the job.

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Speaker 1: And it's for that very reason that you're saying, Amelia,

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Speaker 1: to pivot to something, something else, because that squeeze just

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Speaker 1: becomes too much. But I love this term because I

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Speaker 1: feel like we always talk about being stretched, but what

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Speaker 1: it is is a squeeze, Isn't it Like it does

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Speaker 1: feel like the walls are closing in around you as

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Speaker 1: you're trying to keep up with all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: This is every conversation I have with every working mother

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Speaker 2: is about the squeeze. Are we the first generation to

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Speaker 2: feel the squeeze this hard?

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Speaker 3: Yes? And I think we are also the first generation

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Speaker 3: to not necessarily have a nice trajectory out of the squeeze.

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Speaker 3: I think that's really what she's getting at when she says,

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Speaker 3: look ahead, look beyond the squeeze, because there's no guarantees

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Speaker 3: that we can rise up a corporate ladder in the

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Speaker 3: way that we used to, particularly with artificial intelligence coming

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Speaker 3: down the pike. She has another useful term here, actually,

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Speaker 3: which is utility function. She says, look at what you

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Speaker 3: want out of life, because when you come out of

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Speaker 3: that squeeze, when your kids are older and they need

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Speaker 3: you less, when you have more money because you're not

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Speaker 3: having to deal with childcare costs as much, for instance,

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Speaker 3: and maybe you'll be paying off your mortgage. When you

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Speaker 3: have that more mind and more time, what do you

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Speaker 3: want to do with that. You've got to start thinking

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Speaker 3: about that now when you're in the squeeze. By the

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Speaker 3: time you come out of it, it's going to be

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Speaker 3: too late.

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Speaker 2: So I read about this in a substat called culture

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Speaker 2: Study by Ann Helen Peterson. She says that this concept

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Speaker 2: is paradigm shifting. I don't understand why is it paradigm shifting.

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Speaker 2: It's just saying what's existing? How is it paradigm shifting?

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Speaker 3: Because I think she's reminding you that this is temporary.

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Speaker 3: This is not going to last forever.

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Speaker 1: But is it temporary? Because all I could think about

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about this was a lot of

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Speaker 1: women choose to go to part time work, or a

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Speaker 1: lot of women are in careers where a lot of women,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are in careers where it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily you stay in that job and you'll get that

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Speaker 1: next promotion. Like we spoke about it out loud the

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Speaker 1: other day, people are job hugging, Like people are holding

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Speaker 1: on to those roles so you can't.

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Speaker 4: Necessarily if what's job hugging job huggings.

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Speaker 1: Instead of job hopping. If you listen to Friday's episode,

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Speaker 1: spoke about how like instead of everyone moving around to jobs,

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Speaker 1: everyone wants stability now, So everyone's holding onto jobs whether

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Speaker 1: they like them or not, just so that they have

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Speaker 1: the flexibility and guaranteed income coming in.

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Speaker 4: That's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: We've seen the death of the girl boss and the

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Speaker 2: hustle culture. Is it a response to that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. My theory on it was a little bit that

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Speaker 1: we now value flexibility so much more now than we

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Speaker 1: value money. Like we want to be able to have

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Speaker 1: the option to work at home, or to take the

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Speaker 1: day off to get our child in the afternoon, whatever

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Speaker 1: it may be. And you've kind of got to earn flexibility,

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Speaker 1: like you can't go into a job from the get

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Speaker 1: go and get that huge and people are holding on

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Speaker 1: a lot longer. But also if you're in an industry

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Speaker 1: where there isn't necessarily that climb, like if you're working

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Speaker 1: in hospitality and working in a cafe, like there might

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Speaker 1: not be the promise of more money coming down the pipeline.

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Speaker 1: Sure your children will be older, but don't they say,

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Speaker 1: like bigger children, bigger problems like that you're dealing with more,

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Speaker 1: helping them with more.

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Speaker 3: Look to be honest, you've hit on my secret response

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Speaker 3: to this. So I started off by being like, it's great,

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Speaker 3: and it is great. I love having a term to

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Speaker 3: put around a feeling or an emotion. But I've got

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Speaker 3: to reveal to you that as I was reading, I

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Speaker 3: felt anxiety because I felt like Karna was describing a

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Speaker 3: world which I don't live in the idea that I'm

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Speaker 3: going to eventually make more and more money. That's not

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Speaker 3: the future I see. I see a future where, in fact,

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Speaker 3: if anything, my earning power is becoming more and more

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Speaker 3: volatile and more and more uncertain. So I see a

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Speaker 3: future where the kids need me less, I'm making less money.

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Speaker 3: This is not what she's describing. No, and I felt

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Speaker 3: a lot of anxiety about that.

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Speaker 2: Is it a kind of privileged theory, because you're right,

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Speaker 2: does this apply to people who are in insecure work,

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Speaker 2: people who are like nurses or teachers and things like that.

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Speaker 2: It feels like this theory of the squeeze only really

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Speaker 2: applies to people in maybe white college jobs who can

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Speaker 2: climb the greasy.

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Speaker 3: Pop well, not even white college jobs. I would argue

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Speaker 3: that with the AI revolution that's coming, I don't think

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Speaker 3: white collar jobs have the predictability and the stability that

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Speaker 3: they used to have. So I wonder if she's actually

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Speaker 3: just talking about academia, which is where she's from. Maybe

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Speaker 3: she feels that in that industry there is still a

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Speaker 3: very clear path forward to advance yourself and to make

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Speaker 3: more and more money. But you know, there's also that

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Speaker 3: concept of the salary mountain that you climb throughout your

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Speaker 3: life and you do reach peak earning power, and for

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Speaker 3: men and women, that comes at a different age on average.

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Speaker 3: I think for women it's probably around late thirties, early forties.

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Speaker 3: So that's weighing on me as well.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 3: I think the squeeze is predicated on the idea that

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Speaker 3: I'm going to keep making more money and I'm not

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Speaker 3: seeing that.

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Speaker 1: No. I read an article this week that made me

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Speaker 1: puff a fish. It actually annoyed the shit out of me.

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Speaker 4: If I'm being honest and I have to make puffs

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Speaker 4: for fish. Yeah, do you mean like you get all

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Speaker 4: lights spiky about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It made me like tense up, get really annoyed,

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Speaker 1: like get my hackles up about it. And it was

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Speaker 1: this piece in the cart which should not have annoyed

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Speaker 1: me as much as it did, let me be clear,

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Speaker 1: called eighteen well read people on how they find time

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Speaker 1: for books. So the author Jasmine voj Dani, asked a

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Speaker 1: whole heap of notable people how they find time to read.

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Speaker 1: And some had really strict targets, like they were reading

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Speaker 1: like one hundred pages a day, and some were much

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Speaker 1: more chill about it and just kind of would find

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Speaker 1: these small moments and that'll kind of added up to

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Speaker 1: like a couple of hours reading every single day. And

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Speaker 1: most of them were editors and writers. And before you ask, yes,

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Speaker 1: a lot of them had children. Because that was my

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Speaker 1: initial annoyance was I was like, yeah, but they won't

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Speaker 1: have kids, but a lot of them did. I feel

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Speaker 1: like I used to have endless time for books, and

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Speaker 1: that seems to have evaporated. What I want to know is,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like it's just as easy as just

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Speaker 1: doing it more? Is that really the answer?

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Speaker 3: I actually thought it had a lot of really actionable

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Speaker 3: tips in there. Like one of my favorites was from

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Speaker 3: Molly Young, who's a book critic who I love. She wrote,

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Speaker 3: I treat my phone like poison. I leave the house

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Speaker 3: as much as possible without it. After I had a kid,

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Speaker 3: people were like, what if there's an emergency, every fucking

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Speaker 3: person on earth has a phone, I'll ask the person

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Speaker 3: sitting eight inches away. I find myself thinking about that

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Speaker 3: a lot now that I've read that, thinking maybe I

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Speaker 3: can leave my phone at home, Maybe I can take

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Speaker 3: a book on the bus instead of dooms.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, some of them really do feel like very radical ideas,

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Speaker 1: But then when they break it down, you're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I could actually just not be on my phone once.

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Speaker 3: Do you think you can start leaving your phone at

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Speaker 3: home so you can read books?

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Speaker 2: After I read this article, I left my phone at

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Speaker 2: home to go and spend time with the neighbors and

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Speaker 2: the children.

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Speaker 4: It was amazing. I highly recommend it.

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Speaker 2: Did it go okay, it was so great, actually a

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Speaker 2: really iconic afternoon in the neighborhood. What I'm interested in

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Speaker 2: is how defensive you sound, Stacy. Has this touched a

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Speaker 2: nerve for you?

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Speaker 1: It really has, And when I interrogate why that is,

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Speaker 1: I think it's because a lot of the people had

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Speaker 1: very simple ways to do this, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: it involved their phone, and that is where my time

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Speaker 1: is going, Like even as a parent. A lot of

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Speaker 1: them were parents as well, giving their reasonings and when

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Speaker 1: they find time to do this. At the heart of it,

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Speaker 1: it's that I'm choosing to scroll instead of choosing to read.

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Speaker 1: And I have often kind of blamed parenthood for, oh,

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Speaker 1: I have no time for myself. I have no time

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Speaker 1: to do nothing. But I think it's that it's been

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Speaker 1: replaced by that little hit, instant hit you get of

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Speaker 1: doing a scroll. When these people were saying in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways, you don't need optimal reading conditions, like

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Speaker 1: you don't need to be completely alone in the house

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Speaker 1: with no one there, in a really comfortable chair. A

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Speaker 1: lot of them were just saying, you know, just read

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Speaker 1: when you take your child to swimming practice, or just

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Speaker 1: read for ten minutes while you heat up dinner, and

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Speaker 1: I think it is probably a muscle that I need

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Speaker 1: to train to be doing that more.

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Speaker 3: I read a start this week that said that for

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Speaker 3: young people growing up now under the edge of eighteen,

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Speaker 3: they're estimated that they're going to spend twenty five years

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Speaker 3: of their life on their phone. Yeah. Oh, that's canes

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Speaker 3: me like a ton of bricks. Yeah. So there were

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Speaker 3: a couple of common threads in there about how to

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Speaker 3: avoid that fate. One of them was paper books, they

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Speaker 3: keep your concentration and focus more than reading on your phone.

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Speaker 3: Another one was being more mindful about your phone usage.

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Speaker 3: And then a third thread that I noticed was that

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Speaker 3: people who read a lot talk about raising readers. That

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Speaker 3: was a phrase that was coming up time and time again. So,

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Speaker 3: for instance, one of them said that she is raising

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Speaker 3: readers by modeling for them, that reading is a great

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Speaker 3: thing to do. MERV. M Ray, who is a contributing

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Speaker 3: writer at The New Yorker and a professor, said I

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Speaker 3: just don't do anything else. We don't have a television,

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Speaker 3: I'm not on TikTok or doing any form of scrolling

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Speaker 3: social media. I can't remember the last time I saw

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Speaker 3: a movie. I don't actually have any habits except to

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Speaker 3: just be reading all the time. It was annoying and

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Speaker 3: it made me feel bad, but it also got me

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Speaker 3: thinking about the notion of raising readers. That's different from

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Speaker 3: reading to your kids. That's raising people who want to

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Speaker 3: pick up books. I wanted to pose a maybe a

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Speaker 3: bit of a controversial question to you both, which is,

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Speaker 3: why is it important to raise readers in an ag

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Speaker 3: where so few people do read? Is it still important

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Speaker 3: or is it just a way of boasting? Is it

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Speaker 3: just to thing to boast about. I've raised readers.

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Speaker 2: When I was a child, someone asked me why I

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Speaker 2: loved reading. I was a massive bookworm, and I still

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Speaker 2: remember my answer. Reading is the one place where you

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Speaker 2: get to go into another world.

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Speaker 4: And I remember as a kid my mind.

438
00:20:30,045 --> 00:20:33,365
Speaker 2: Being blown that I could pick up a story and

439
00:20:33,445 --> 00:20:38,044
Speaker 2: be transported into another world. That is not something you

440
00:20:38,085 --> 00:20:43,205
Speaker 2: can get from mindlessly watching Minecraft or Gabby's Doghouse. There's

441
00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:46,645
Speaker 2: such a magic to reading books that we might have

442
00:20:46,765 --> 00:20:49,045
Speaker 2: lost that we probably need to recapture.

443
00:20:49,285 --> 00:20:50,685
Speaker 4: That's hard to describe to a kid.

444
00:20:50,725 --> 00:20:52,804
Speaker 2: It's something that they kind of had to discover on

445
00:20:52,885 --> 00:20:57,044
Speaker 2: their own, but we have to facilitate that discovery. I'm

446
00:20:57,085 --> 00:20:58,885
Speaker 2: sure there's lots of research about why it's good for

447
00:20:58,885 --> 00:21:01,885
Speaker 2: our brains and vocabulary and all the academic stuff, but

448
00:21:02,645 --> 00:21:05,925
Speaker 2: it's also magical in the way that we can discover

449
00:21:06,085 --> 00:21:09,365
Speaker 2: and embed ourselves in stories and understand different perspectives and

450
00:21:09,525 --> 00:21:11,085
Speaker 2: be someone else for a little while.

451
00:21:11,245 --> 00:21:14,045
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're focusing on it being an academic thing or

452
00:21:14,085 --> 00:21:15,685
Speaker 1: something that's going to get us a head in life,

453
00:21:15,685 --> 00:21:17,325
Speaker 1: but what we're forgetting is the joy and just the

454
00:21:17,405 --> 00:21:18,805
Speaker 1: enjoyment out of reading. More.

455
00:21:19,005 --> 00:21:21,165
Speaker 3: I'm going to be the pragmatic one because I was

456
00:21:21,205 --> 00:21:23,284
Speaker 3: not a school captain and saying it does get you

457
00:21:23,325 --> 00:21:25,645
Speaker 3: ahead in life. It's worth throwing this research in because

458
00:21:25,645 --> 00:21:28,845
Speaker 3: it's really striking, which is that reading for pleasure is

459
00:21:28,885 --> 00:21:32,284
Speaker 3: one of the strongest predictors of future academic success. And

460
00:21:32,325 --> 00:21:35,085
Speaker 3: here's the really interesting part of that fact. That is

461
00:21:35,165 --> 00:21:39,725
Speaker 3: true regardless of socioeconomic background. So so many predictors of

462
00:21:39,725 --> 00:21:43,445
Speaker 3: academic success are actually just simply tied to how much

463
00:21:43,525 --> 00:21:47,125
Speaker 3: money your parents have. But this is the one that

464
00:21:47,205 --> 00:21:51,764
Speaker 3: can catapult people up the socioeconomic ladder, and it's reading.

465
00:21:52,005 --> 00:21:55,085
Speaker 3: It's basically a magic bullet for getting a head in life.

466
00:21:55,285 --> 00:21:58,044
Speaker 3: I found that really sort of galvanizing because it's just

467
00:21:58,085 --> 00:22:02,085
Speaker 3: so clear this research. It got me thinking about how

468
00:22:02,125 --> 00:22:05,845
Speaker 3: we can implement some practical tips to raise readers because

469
00:22:05,885 --> 00:22:07,805
Speaker 3: I'm not doing a very good job of it myself.

470
00:22:08,125 --> 00:22:10,205
Speaker 3: There's a former Australian Teacher of the Year named Megan.

471
00:22:10,765 --> 00:22:13,284
Speaker 3: She's written a book called Raising Readers about how to

472
00:22:13,325 --> 00:22:15,925
Speaker 3: instill and I thought this word was interesting, a joy

473
00:22:16,045 --> 00:22:18,685
Speaker 3: of reading in children. That word joy is really interesting

474
00:22:18,725 --> 00:22:21,485
Speaker 3: because so often when we have this screens discussion, we're

475
00:22:21,484 --> 00:22:24,085
Speaker 3: never talking about joy. Kids are not driving joy from

476
00:22:24,125 --> 00:22:27,485
Speaker 3: watching screens, they're just basically addicted to them. And she's

477
00:22:27,484 --> 00:22:30,645
Speaker 3: got lots of practical tips, but one that I liked

478
00:22:30,645 --> 00:22:33,325
Speaker 3: in particular was that she said, when your kids are

479
00:22:33,365 --> 00:22:36,484
Speaker 3: a little bit older and they're tackling chapter books, you

480
00:22:36,525 --> 00:22:38,685
Speaker 3: can just read the first chapter of the book with

481
00:22:38,765 --> 00:22:41,804
Speaker 3: them and then just leave the book lying around and

482
00:22:41,845 --> 00:22:44,885
Speaker 3: then eventually they might pick it up if their interest

483
00:22:44,965 --> 00:22:47,004
Speaker 3: is piqued, and they might read the book. And I

484
00:22:47,045 --> 00:22:51,445
Speaker 3: thought that was a really practical way to start raising readers.

485
00:22:51,525 --> 00:22:53,965
Speaker 1: Yeah, this discussion reminded me of an article we have

486
00:22:54,005 --> 00:22:56,325
Speaker 1: on Mama Mia by Zoe Rochford, and she wrote about

487
00:22:56,325 --> 00:22:58,605
Speaker 1: how she read sixty books in a year with two

488
00:22:58,645 --> 00:23:01,965
Speaker 1: young kids. So she has two under three, and she

489
00:23:02,125 --> 00:23:03,965
Speaker 1: was saying that a lot of it was about doing

490
00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:06,925
Speaker 1: communal reading. So she's like groundbreaking, I know. But go

491
00:23:06,965 --> 00:23:09,965
Speaker 1: to the library because it entertains them, no matter their age,

492
00:23:09,965 --> 00:23:12,045
Speaker 1: to be a round the books and picking up those

493
00:23:12,045 --> 00:23:14,405
Speaker 1: books and you can read there. You can be modeling

494
00:23:14,484 --> 00:23:16,925
Speaker 1: it to them there. And the other one she was

495
00:23:16,965 --> 00:23:20,484
Speaker 1: saying was exactly what you said about joy. Don't finish

496
00:23:20,484 --> 00:23:22,285
Speaker 1: a book if you're not enjoying it, Like, don't be

497
00:23:22,365 --> 00:23:24,645
Speaker 1: reading books because that's the hot new book. Like if

498
00:23:24,645 --> 00:23:28,284
Speaker 1: you're into Cowboy smart, read Cowboy Smart. That's where I

499
00:23:28,285 --> 00:23:33,085
Speaker 1: didn't know that was a genre. Now, yeah, that should

500
00:23:33,125 --> 00:23:35,725
Speaker 1: be first on our list. But you know, don't worry

501
00:23:35,765 --> 00:23:37,845
Speaker 1: if you're in a slump, Like, don't be reading something

502
00:23:37,925 --> 00:23:39,885
Speaker 1: just because it's seen as the call book or the

503
00:23:40,245 --> 00:23:43,205
Speaker 1: best seller. Pick up something that will instill joy in

504
00:23:43,285 --> 00:23:45,605
Speaker 1: you and then you can kind of be passing it.

505
00:23:45,725 --> 00:23:48,725
Speaker 3: Doubt that because then you can also not only you

506
00:23:48,845 --> 00:23:51,524
Speaker 3: role modeling for your kids and they're seeing you reading

507
00:23:51,565 --> 00:23:54,205
Speaker 3: books and avidly reading books, but you can also teach

508
00:23:54,245 --> 00:23:55,804
Speaker 3: them that they don't have to finish a book that

509
00:23:55,845 --> 00:23:58,005
Speaker 3: they don't like. Yeah, but if you borrow some book

510
00:23:58,005 --> 00:23:59,645
Speaker 3: from the library that you think they're going to love

511
00:23:59,685 --> 00:24:01,645
Speaker 3: and they just hate them, put it down and find

512
00:24:01,725 --> 00:24:02,285
Speaker 3: something else.

513
00:24:02,405 --> 00:24:02,885
Speaker 1: Exactly.

514
00:24:03,045 --> 00:24:05,285
Speaker 2: The point about them seeing you read books is really

515
00:24:05,325 --> 00:24:08,365
Speaker 2: important and the modeling of it, because in our family life,

516
00:24:08,525 --> 00:24:10,165
Speaker 2: I would often put the kids to better then go

517
00:24:10,165 --> 00:24:11,285
Speaker 2: to bed and read it.

518
00:24:11,325 --> 00:24:12,245
Speaker 4: They would never see.

519
00:24:12,045 --> 00:24:13,804
Speaker 2: Me reading a book because it's something you do alone

520
00:24:13,805 --> 00:24:16,285
Speaker 2: at night in your own bedroom. So what we've done

521
00:24:16,285 --> 00:24:17,925
Speaker 2: in our house is I flipped it and it's this

522
00:24:18,125 --> 00:24:20,725
Speaker 2: habit stacking as well. So when I put my kids

523
00:24:20,765 --> 00:24:22,925
Speaker 2: to bed, I have to stay in the room with them.

524
00:24:23,525 --> 00:24:25,605
Speaker 2: So what I've started doing is I bought an Eaty

525
00:24:25,605 --> 00:24:28,485
Speaker 2: Biddy book light and I've just every time I put

526
00:24:28,484 --> 00:24:30,445
Speaker 2: them to bed, I lie on the floor and just

527
00:24:30,525 --> 00:24:33,165
Speaker 2: read my book. So they see me reading. And now

528
00:24:33,205 --> 00:24:35,524
Speaker 2: it's become part of our nightly routine. It's like a

529
00:24:35,645 --> 00:24:36,965
Speaker 2: habit force to read.

530
00:24:37,245 --> 00:24:38,165
Speaker 1: Great good.

531
00:24:38,605 --> 00:24:38,805
Speaker 3: Yeah.

532
00:24:38,845 --> 00:24:40,885
Speaker 2: I think the book like costs me like fifteen bucks

533
00:24:40,925 --> 00:24:44,525
Speaker 2: on Amazon, and it's forcing me to read and it's enjoyable,

534
00:24:44,525 --> 00:24:46,685
Speaker 2: and it's also modeling that reading's good.

535
00:24:47,045 --> 00:24:49,725
Speaker 3: All Right, It's time for recommendations, and these are things

536
00:24:49,725 --> 00:24:52,125
Speaker 3: that we're loving or that are making our lives easier.

537
00:24:52,325 --> 00:24:55,284
Speaker 3: And the first one from Stacy today is one that

538
00:24:55,325 --> 00:24:57,685
Speaker 3: I have begged her to bring. It's very much parenting

539
00:24:57,765 --> 00:25:01,205
Speaker 3: adjacent and it's this. I see Stacy early in the

540
00:25:01,205 --> 00:25:04,685
Speaker 3: morning when we record this, and she always looks pulled together,

541
00:25:04,845 --> 00:25:08,285
Speaker 3: and that's because she's always wearing a very iconic lip.

542
00:25:08,685 --> 00:25:10,965
Speaker 3: And yes, I said lip like I was a personal

543
00:25:10,965 --> 00:25:14,245
Speaker 3: a lip. It's always a singular. It's a singular lip. Stacy,

544
00:25:14,365 --> 00:25:15,285
Speaker 3: tell us your secret.

545
00:25:15,365 --> 00:25:18,565
Speaker 1: Okay. So I actually got this reco from our lifestyle

546
00:25:18,685 --> 00:25:21,165
Speaker 1: editor Amy Clark. I stole it from her because she

547
00:25:21,325 --> 00:25:24,685
Speaker 1: was wearing it. I find lipsticks hard, like I smudge them.

548
00:25:24,725 --> 00:25:26,804
Speaker 1: They end up on my teeth. I don't want to reapply.

549
00:25:27,165 --> 00:25:30,125
Speaker 1: So this one's a lip oil, like a tinted lip POI.

550
00:25:30,005 --> 00:25:31,285
Speaker 3: Which just sounds so nice.

551
00:25:32,445 --> 00:25:35,365
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's by Nick, So it's called the Nick's

552
00:25:35,484 --> 00:25:39,005
Speaker 1: Fat Oil Lip Drip and the shade is Newsfeed, which

553
00:25:39,005 --> 00:25:42,525
Speaker 1: I thought was very appropriate for my job. It's twenty bucks,

554
00:25:42,525 --> 00:25:43,885
Speaker 1: but it's always on sale, so I got it for

555
00:25:43,925 --> 00:25:47,445
Speaker 1: ten bucks in price line. But it is just like

556
00:25:47,525 --> 00:25:50,604
Speaker 1: a nice soft red and when I put it on,

557
00:25:50,645 --> 00:25:52,245
Speaker 1: you always give me compliments, which I love.

558
00:25:52,285 --> 00:25:54,405
Speaker 3: So I just wear it for you. Mostly it makes

559
00:25:54,405 --> 00:25:55,445
Speaker 3: you look like Kate Middleton.

560
00:25:55,645 --> 00:25:58,605
Speaker 1: Thank you. What a compliment. Yeah, so I'll be wearing

561
00:25:58,605 --> 00:25:59,565
Speaker 1: it until the grave.

562
00:25:59,885 --> 00:26:02,685
Speaker 2: Yes, I needed this this week because I discovered that

563
00:26:03,005 --> 00:26:06,524
Speaker 2: my children had found my Shanti Hayley.

564
00:26:06,685 --> 00:26:08,805
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm saying that right. It's a lipstick.

565
00:26:09,285 --> 00:26:11,805
Speaker 1: It sounds expensive saying it right, I'm not.

566
00:26:11,845 --> 00:26:15,844
Speaker 2: This is a seventy seven dollars that they took and

567
00:26:15,885 --> 00:26:20,605
Speaker 2: painted their faces with it. No, like, why don't you

568
00:26:20,725 --> 00:26:22,365
Speaker 2: choose the Kmart lipstick?

569
00:26:22,605 --> 00:26:24,764
Speaker 4: No, I just can't.

570
00:26:25,125 --> 00:26:27,525
Speaker 2: I can't say I'll be getting their Nick's Fat Oil

571
00:26:27,605 --> 00:26:28,125
Speaker 2: lip drip.

572
00:26:28,405 --> 00:26:30,965
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. What's yours this week?

573
00:26:31,085 --> 00:26:32,965
Speaker 4: Mon's okay, little gear change.

574
00:26:33,045 --> 00:26:36,165
Speaker 2: I have a recommendation for a podcast episode this week,

575
00:26:36,405 --> 00:26:38,645
Speaker 2: and I'm going to try and talk about this without crying.

576
00:26:38,805 --> 00:26:42,925
Speaker 2: It's an episode of conversations, and I've listened to hundreds

577
00:26:42,965 --> 00:26:45,445
Speaker 2: of episodes of conversations in my life. I used to

578
00:26:45,525 --> 00:26:48,885
Speaker 2: manage that team at the ABC, but this one absolutely

579
00:26:48,925 --> 00:26:53,245
Speaker 2: broke me into a million pieces. It's conversations with Paul Field. Now,

580
00:26:53,285 --> 00:26:57,005
Speaker 2: he is the former managing director of the Wiggles. So

581
00:26:57,205 --> 00:27:00,324
Speaker 2: the Field family sort of starred the Wiggles. He's been

582
00:27:00,365 --> 00:27:03,405
Speaker 2: a bad call the Cockroaches. He's now an ambassador for

583
00:27:03,484 --> 00:27:07,085
Speaker 2: Sid's Red Nose Day. He talks about the loss of

584
00:27:07,165 --> 00:27:10,845
Speaker 2: his baby daughter, Bernadette. A trigger warning on this The

585
00:27:10,925 --> 00:27:15,645
Speaker 2: content is hard to listen to. It's just such a

586
00:27:15,925 --> 00:27:21,205
Speaker 2: deeply emotional and moving episode, and he really talks about

587
00:27:21,245 --> 00:27:25,044
Speaker 2: the devastation they felt, but also the compassion shown to

588
00:27:25,085 --> 00:27:27,285
Speaker 2: them by all the people around them. I think it's

589
00:27:27,325 --> 00:27:30,405
Speaker 2: the best episode of Conversations I've ever heard, and in fact,

590
00:27:30,605 --> 00:27:35,325
Speaker 2: Richard Widler, who hosts Conversations, says, that is the saddest

591
00:27:35,365 --> 00:27:36,685
Speaker 2: thing I have ever heard.

592
00:27:38,565 --> 00:27:41,365
Speaker 4: It's beautiful, it's important.

593
00:27:42,205 --> 00:27:47,004
Speaker 2: I think it's extraordinary that a man can talk about

594
00:27:47,005 --> 00:27:50,165
Speaker 2: something that happened to him, you know, in the seventies.

595
00:27:50,245 --> 00:27:52,645
Speaker 2: This was and he still talks about it like it

596
00:27:52,685 --> 00:27:58,004
Speaker 2: happened yesterday, and it was just so beautiful and moving.

597
00:27:58,845 --> 00:28:00,565
Speaker 2: What about you, Amelia, what are you recommending?

598
00:28:00,765 --> 00:28:04,085
Speaker 3: I've got something that is not moving, but it is

599
00:28:04,245 --> 00:28:07,925
Speaker 3: very relaxing. Went to Cole's on the weekend and thought

600
00:28:07,965 --> 00:28:09,925
Speaker 3: it was a win because took the kids and they

601
00:28:09,925 --> 00:28:11,645
Speaker 3: wanted to go toy shop. But then I said no,

602
00:28:11,725 --> 00:28:14,445
Speaker 3: we're just going grocery shopping. Now, apparently Cole's has a

603
00:28:14,484 --> 00:28:17,885
Speaker 3: toy aisle. I mean why, but We're walking down this

604
00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:19,845
Speaker 3: toy aisle and I realize I'm not getting out of

605
00:28:19,885 --> 00:28:22,285
Speaker 3: their alives. So I tell them, Look, you can pick

606
00:28:22,365 --> 00:28:24,804
Speaker 3: up something that is not primarily made of plastic and

607
00:28:24,845 --> 00:28:29,245
Speaker 3: ideally under twenty dollars, and we pick up the Kawaii

608
00:28:29,365 --> 00:28:32,045
Speaker 3: as in the Japanese word for cute, the Kawaii rock

609
00:28:32,085 --> 00:28:35,485
Speaker 3: painting kit. It is five dollars and we had some

610
00:28:35,525 --> 00:28:38,045
Speaker 3: of the most fun I've had in ages. It was

611
00:28:38,085 --> 00:28:41,445
Speaker 3: a Saturday afternoon. I put on some fleetwood mac and

612
00:28:41,485 --> 00:28:45,285
Speaker 3: we painted rocks together. Look, the kit does come with rocks,

613
00:28:45,365 --> 00:28:48,205
Speaker 3: but I'm pretty sure if you have children at home,

614
00:28:48,365 --> 00:28:52,285
Speaker 3: they can probably source some artisanal rocks for you to

615
00:28:52,405 --> 00:28:55,645
Speaker 3: add to your collection to paint. And I just went

616
00:28:55,725 --> 00:28:59,045
Speaker 3: completely ham on this. I started painting rocks after the

617
00:28:59,125 --> 00:29:02,805
Speaker 3: kids had gone to bed, and have now considered opening

618
00:29:02,845 --> 00:29:04,925
Speaker 3: a market stall to sell them because I think I

619
00:29:04,965 --> 00:29:06,005
Speaker 3: have kind of a talent.

620
00:29:06,285 --> 00:29:08,085
Speaker 1: Wow, I was going to say, did you get really

621
00:29:08,125 --> 00:29:10,205
Speaker 1: possessive of the rocks? And these are.

622
00:29:13,005 --> 00:29:15,405
Speaker 2: Do with the rocks once you've painted them? Do you

623
00:29:15,445 --> 00:29:16,565
Speaker 2: stick little eyes on them.

624
00:29:16,805 --> 00:29:19,725
Speaker 3: No, you just like put them tastefully around your house.

625
00:29:19,845 --> 00:29:22,525
Speaker 3: So it's true that in Japan you'll see quite often

626
00:29:22,605 --> 00:29:24,965
Speaker 3: like a window sill will have a couple of beautiful

627
00:29:25,125 --> 00:29:28,845
Speaker 3: rocks on it. They're probably not painted the lurid colors

628
00:29:28,885 --> 00:29:32,685
Speaker 3: that I've painted mine, But you know what, like, don't

629
00:29:32,725 --> 00:29:36,285
Speaker 3: mock my hobby. Like I love story painting, I'm very

630
00:29:36,285 --> 00:29:39,245
Speaker 3: good at it, and because I was in a school captain,

631
00:29:39,325 --> 00:29:42,165
Speaker 3: I do have to embrace these high points when they happen.

632
00:29:42,245 --> 00:29:44,365
Speaker 1: Oh, we're going to start getting them as gifts from you.

633
00:29:44,445 --> 00:29:47,845
Speaker 3: For instance, you'd be lucky, Stacy, You'd be lucky.

634
00:29:48,245 --> 00:29:50,885
Speaker 2: I'm laughing because I saw this TikTok this week that

635
00:29:51,005 --> 00:29:53,445
Speaker 2: I laughed out loud so hard at it. It's about

636
00:29:53,485 --> 00:29:56,165
Speaker 2: this mum and daughter who play a trick on their

637
00:29:56,245 --> 00:29:59,005
Speaker 2: dad and the daughter gives themm a gift and it's

638
00:29:59,045 --> 00:30:02,325
Speaker 2: a rock wrapped up and they pretend it's come from

639
00:30:02,325 --> 00:30:05,205
Speaker 2: this shop called Anthropology, and they pretend it was like

640
00:30:05,245 --> 00:30:09,325
Speaker 2: this extremely precious, like very expensive rock, and the dad's

641
00:30:09,325 --> 00:30:12,485
Speaker 2: face in the background is just like I don't get it,

642
00:30:12,525 --> 00:30:14,285
Speaker 2: and then he's like, I could have got you a

643
00:30:14,365 --> 00:30:15,965
Speaker 2: rock like that like, we have rocks like that in

644
00:30:16,005 --> 00:30:17,725
Speaker 2: the garden, and she was like, you don't understand.

645
00:30:17,765 --> 00:30:19,925
Speaker 4: It's anthropology.

646
00:30:20,325 --> 00:30:23,285
Speaker 2: That's you now, Amelia, just like laying your rocks around

647
00:30:23,285 --> 00:30:27,365
Speaker 2: your house, your precious rocks. Ah, that's all we have

648
00:30:27,445 --> 00:30:29,525
Speaker 2: time for today. Hey, if there's one thing I know

649
00:30:29,605 --> 00:30:33,485
Speaker 2: about podcasts, it's that word of mouth is really the

650
00:30:33,525 --> 00:30:36,165
Speaker 2: way that people discover them. So got a favor to ask.

651
00:30:36,325 --> 00:30:39,845
Speaker 2: If you like this show, tell someone about it because

652
00:30:39,885 --> 00:30:42,365
Speaker 2: people trust other recommendations from other people.

653
00:30:42,405 --> 00:30:43,605
Speaker 4: And also, here's the other thing.

654
00:30:44,085 --> 00:30:47,685
Speaker 2: There's some statistic where people listen to eight podcasts a

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Speaker 2: week and people are always searching for new ones to discover,

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Speaker 2: so new good ones. So if you tell just one

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Speaker 2: person about parenting out Loud, we would love that big.

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Speaker 2: Thanks to our team, Junior content Producer Tessa Kotovic, our

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Speaker 2: senior producer Leah Porges and Executive producer Sashatanic and the

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Speaker 2: group ep At Mum and Maya Is Ruth Devine. Have

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Speaker 2: a great week. We'll be back in the speed next

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Speaker 2: Saturday morning.

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Speaker 3: Go paint some rocks.

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Speaker 1: Bye bye bye, Yah