Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's
Speaker 1: what women are talking about on Monday, the twenty fifth
Speaker 1: of May. I'm Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 2: I'm Claire Stevens.
Speaker 3: I'm Amelia Lester.
Speaker 1: Big weekend, didn't we, Holly?
Speaker 2: Please? Did we? We're keeping some pretty pretty incredible company.
Speaker 1: You had lunch on Friday with Jacinder a day.
Speaker 3: Can you tell me everything?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, so we'll go chronologically because Holly's is more exciting,
Speaker 2: but mine did happen earlier in the day. So on Friday,
Speaker 2: I was at a lunch for my wonderful publisher Alan
Speaker 2: and Unwin because the author Lily King, who wrote Heart
Speaker 2: the Lover, which a lot of out louders have read
Speaker 2: because I think Jess and I both recommended it to death.
Speaker 2: So she was in Australia for Sydney Ryders Festival and
Speaker 2: it was a lunch for her and Ja Cindra Adurn
Speaker 2: is a fan of Lily King, so she just happened
Speaker 2: to be at this lunch. I said to her, like,
Speaker 2: I'm pregnant and I'm in my floppyre.
Speaker 3: You probably didn't need to tell.
Speaker 2: She's like, honey, I can see, but I was like,
Speaker 2: I can't believe you ran a country when you were this.
Speaker 2: What did she say? She said, she was like, well,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't do it if you didn't have to.
Speaker 3: Well, I know how Holly met her because I went
Speaker 3: to see Holly everything.
Speaker 1: I interviewed Justina on Friday night at the town Hall
Speaker 1: at Sydney town Hall. It was it was great. I
Speaker 1: was really nervous, really nervous, because this is the thing, right,
Speaker 1: we're just cinda fangirls. I'm on the record as being
Speaker 1: disinde fangirls. Not everybody is. In fact, I posted about
Speaker 1: my disinder experience on Friday, and I knew what would
Speaker 1: happen would happen, which is that you get a lot
Speaker 1: of people going yeah, yeah, amazing, and then the people
Speaker 1: come who are like, did you tell her that she's
Speaker 1: ruined everything? And so you know, like this is a politician.
Speaker 1: So I was very nervous about doing the interview. I
Speaker 1: was very nervous about the preparation. I was very nervous
Speaker 1: about all the things. But it actually went fine.
Speaker 3: With more than fine, Holly. There was laughter, there was tears,
Speaker 3: and you had the most amazing sparkly socks and Shinysue.
Speaker 1: She was great.
Speaker 2: It was good.
Speaker 1: But you know what, I only have one regret, and
Speaker 1: it's a good regret to have about any big event
Speaker 1: because it isn't about anything I said or did. It's
Speaker 1: about one thing about the way I looked. I didn't
Speaker 1: get my hair done, and so every time I look
Speaker 1: at the videos, I just see this massive, really frizzy
Speaker 1: hair and it's not important. That's not the important part.
Speaker 1: The important part is what you say. But then you
Speaker 1: look at the videos and you're like, why didn't I
Speaker 1: get my hair done?
Speaker 2: Jacinda got her hair done well on Friday. I relate
Speaker 2: Holly because I got a photo with Lily King and
Speaker 2: jacindra I durn and Luke Bateman, who's the book was
Speaker 2: so very important, very very exciting, and you know, when
Speaker 2: you're just not having the day to get the photos,
Speaker 2: I was like, these photos are all terrible, but I
Speaker 2: have to post them because when else is this gonna happen.
Speaker 2: But I did say to Jacinda, I said, you're meeting
Speaker 2: my lovely friend Holly tonight because she's interviewing you. And
Speaker 2: Jacinda said her questions are brilliant.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 2: So me and Jacinda were talking about your friend, Holly
Speaker 2: is what happens?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: All right, here's what's made our agenda for today. Is
Speaker 1: there such a thing as a good reason for your
Speaker 1: dad to miss your wedding? What about trying to broker
Speaker 1: a peace deal? Yes, we are talking about the Trumps.
Speaker 2: Plus the childwive conversation is everywhere from publishing to sixty minutes.
Speaker 2: We can't look away. But what does it really say
Speaker 2: about us?
Speaker 3: And I'm bringing something new. We can blame celebrities for.
Speaker 1: Hurrah, But first, Klaus Stevens.
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift, and Travis Kelcey were in the front row
Speaker 2: of an NBA game in Ohio on Saturday night, and
Speaker 2: I just want to play you a moment of commentary
Speaker 2: and ask if you notice anything interesting about it.
Speaker 1: Well, Travis Kelcey and his fiance here of the game.
Speaker 3: Travis kelce that's good to have him here, at Ohio native,
Speaker 3: a Cleveland native, taker heights.
Speaker 2: He's an Ohio boy.
Speaker 1: Needless to say, the ovation was pretty good. In any
Speaker 1: I didn't say the name of Travis Kelce's fiance.
Speaker 2: They could mention that Travis Kelcey was from Ohio, but
Speaker 2: they couldn't mention that her name is Taylor Swift and
Speaker 2: you may know her as one of the best selling
Speaker 2: artists of all time or the highest grossing live music
Speaker 2: artists on the.
Speaker 3: Thing may have been proving a point.
Speaker 2: So there are all these theories going around about why
Speaker 2: they wouldn't name her, and no one has actually offered
Speaker 2: an official explanation from ESPN or the announcers or anything
Speaker 2: like that, so it's just speculation. But there's a bit
Speaker 2: of a theory that they were making a point that
Speaker 2: they didn't want it to become a big celebrity.
Speaker 3: Like distract what has happened with the NFL with football,
Speaker 3: which is that because of course Travis is a footballer,
Speaker 3: Taylor attends his games sometimes and in the NFL there
Speaker 3: was there were complaints from the fan base that they
Speaker 3: were turning the games into these Taylor Swift spectacles. So
Speaker 3: maybe the basketball people are trying not.
Speaker 2: To do that, which I say, any Taylor Swift spectacle amazing.
Speaker 1: Well, you can tell that the hype is ramping up.
Speaker 1: Those two are going out a lot in New York
Speaker 1: this because it's leading into the northern summer, of course,
Speaker 1: and so I'm seeing them everywhere, and the hype is
Speaker 1: building because we all know the wedding is any minute.
Speaker 2: It's very it looks.
Speaker 3: Like Sleeping Beauty now, like you know the Sleeping Beauty
Speaker 3: Disney movie. She's got the very, very thick fringe. She
Speaker 3: just looks like a beautiful startled sawn.
Speaker 1: I have never related to her before, but I related
Speaker 1: hard at this game, because what did Travis douclaire.
Speaker 2: Travis chugged a beer.
Speaker 1: He chugged a beer, he stood a fourth quarter, he
Speaker 1: encouraged applause and chugged a beer in one and Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift just had to sit there like, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: my dude, And I was like hard.
Speaker 2: Related was buried hands and she was visibly cringing, and
Speaker 2: I was like, that's love, that's true love.
Speaker 3: Also, how wild is it that three years ago, I
Speaker 3: think three years ago, at this very time, she was
Speaker 3: dating a man who is sort of the exact opposite
Speaker 3: of Travis Kelcey. I refer, of course, to frontman of the.
Speaker 1: Yes, who famously is so pretentious that he only writes
Speaker 1: on a typewriter. Although I'm sure he's a Northern Englishman.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he does like his football to a point.
Speaker 1: He doesn't chug beers at games like this is in
Speaker 1: fact speaking of the Other thing that I saw that
Speaker 1: was very like hard relate on the weekend was also
Speaker 1: Prince William was at a football game for his team
Speaker 1: aston Villa. It is not clear why he supports them.
Speaker 1: They're from Birmingham. That's a long story. Normally Royal people,
Speaker 1: posh people support Chelsea or like some posh Anyway, they
Speaker 1: won a really important European game and there is video
Speaker 1: footage of William filming it and declining a call from Cape.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, and I was like, that is everybody
Speaker 1: when they are in the middle of being embodied in
Speaker 1: their joy and they're like, no, not.
Speaker 2: Now, dull, not now, dull. We'll call you when I
Speaker 2: have a chance. I also loved they got footage of
Speaker 2: Taylor and Travis sitting there. Travis says, do you have
Speaker 2: any gum? She passes gum from her bag and says
Speaker 2: last one, And it was very like maternal but also
Speaker 2: like there was a slight annoyance that's like, it's the
Speaker 2: last fricking one taking my gum. Now you're so annoyed,
Speaker 2: but also have the gum because you just chugged a bet.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: So last Wednesday's show, we solved a dilemma about a
Speaker 1: woman who didn't want to go to her friend's wedding
Speaker 1: because it was going to make her feel bad. Right, well,
Speaker 1: we have listeners in high places, because immediately afterwards, one
Speaker 1: Donald Trump decided there was a wedding that he didn't
Speaker 1: have to att and his sons. Look, we know that
Speaker 1: when it comes to news with the word Trump in it,
Speaker 1: there are many things we could talk about, many important things.
Speaker 1: But in the interest of not making everyone want to
Speaker 1: throw their phones out of the window right now, how
Speaker 1: about we settle on this one. Donald Junior, lovely guy,
Speaker 1: Lovely guy, got married on Saturday May twenty four. His
Speaker 1: lucky bride is Bettina Anderson, often most described as a
Speaker 1: model and socialite. Now, Don Junior lost his mum, Evana,
Speaker 1: four years ago, so it might have been nice for
Speaker 1: his dad to go to the wedding, but he didn't
Speaker 1: didn't want to go. And look, he did have an excuse.
Speaker 1: Here's what he said, wedding.
Speaker 5: He'd like, middy, go, I'm just going to be just
Speaker 5: a small, little private affair, and I'm going to try
Speaker 5: and make it. I'm in the midst, I said, you know,
Speaker 5: this is not good timing for me. I have a
Speaker 5: thing called the red and other things. That's when I
Speaker 5: can't went on. If I do attend, I get killed.
Speaker 5: If I don't intend, I get you by the fake years.
Speaker 5: Of course I'm talking about No. But he's a very
Speaker 5: person who I've known for a long time, and hopefully
Speaker 5: they're gonna have a great marriage.
Speaker 3: Do he just describe his son as a person I've
Speaker 3: known for a long time or.
Speaker 2: Was he describing them He describes his son as a
Speaker 2: person I've known for a long time.
Speaker 1: Look, I know it's really hard to put the trump
Speaker 1: of all this to the side, and maybe we can't,
Speaker 1: in fact, but if we try, if we really really try,
Speaker 1: aren't there some things more important than turning up to
Speaker 1: your son's wedding?
Speaker 3: Amelia, No, I think you just deranged in this take college?
Speaker 2: Like really?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Like what, well, here's what I wonder. Will you had
Speaker 1: an ear aware? So when Joe Biden was president, there
Speaker 1: was this this memo circulated that was actually from when
Speaker 1: he was vice president. This memo predated his presidency, that
Speaker 1: he'd sent out to all his staff that said this,
Speaker 1: he said, I would like to take a moment and
Speaker 1: make something clear to everyone. I do not expect, nor
Speaker 1: do I want any of you to miss or sacrifice
Speaker 1: important family obligations for work. Family obligations include, but are
Speaker 1: not limited to, family birthdays, anniversaries, weddings, any religious ceremonies
Speaker 1: such as first communions and bar mitsva's graduations, and times
Speaker 1: of needs such as illness or a loss in the family.
Speaker 1: This is very important to me, Biden said. In fact,
Speaker 1: I will go so far as to say that if
Speaker 1: I find out that you are working with me while
Speaker 1: missing important family responsibilities, it will disappoint me greatly. This
Speaker 1: has been an unwritten rule since my days in the Senate.
Speaker 1: Thank you for all your hard work, Joe.
Speaker 3: Okay, in retrospect, maybe some people should have missed some family.
Speaker 1: And then contrast this with a tweet from Don Junior
Speaker 1: himself back in the day, who once tweeted in twenty twelve,
Speaker 1: I'm at dinner with our greenskeeper who missed his sister's
Speaker 1: wedding to work. No big deal. Hopefully she'll have another
Speaker 1: someday celebrating the idea of working over family. So I
Speaker 1: don't know. I just wonder if we've got this cultural clash.
Speaker 2: No, see, I think if it was anybody else. Ironically,
Speaker 2: maybe if it had been Biden years before he was president,
Speaker 2: if it had been another politician who is known for
Speaker 2: how hard they work and their absolute dedication to their job,
Speaker 2: might be different. The funny thing about Trump is that
Speaker 2: since when does he need to miss things in order
Speaker 2: to be president? Like there's he has done the most ridiculous.
Speaker 2: He plays golf so often. Even the weekend of Don
Speaker 2: Junior's wedding this past weekend he was scheduled to go.
Speaker 3: To That's not fair. He was scheduled to go and
Speaker 3: play golf. It's a long weekend in the US, and
Speaker 3: that is his traditional long weekend was scheduled, which hugely
Speaker 3: on long weekend, you probably watched maths because that so
Speaker 3: much more important than Trump's golf.
Speaker 2: Not when I've got a long standing wedding invitation. That's
Speaker 2: the thing.
Speaker 3: He was scheduled till very recently to play golf, but
Speaker 3: then he canceled the golf because he had a thing
Speaker 3: called a run. What part of that do you not understand?
Speaker 2: But I think what happened is that somebody got in
Speaker 2: his ear and said, hey, mate, if you are missing
Speaker 2: your son's wedding, you can't.
Speaker 3: Somebody got in his ear? Is that an ear joke
Speaker 3: that you're making me clar he was shot in the ear.
Speaker 1: That's too soon, so insensitive.
Speaker 3: Look, I do have to say, I know you wanted
Speaker 3: to take the Trump out of it, but can I
Speaker 3: just provide a tiny bit of context on John Junior,
Speaker 3: because I think there's a case to be made that
Speaker 3: he might be Trump's least favorite son.
Speaker 2: Which is unfortunate because of the name, which is yeah,
Speaker 2: and for other reasons. And look, he's not He's not
Speaker 2: got a great track record sort of character wise. Just quickly,
Speaker 2: he did compare Syrian refugees to skittles, and he has hunted,
Speaker 2: among other animals, endangered Mongolian sheep, leopards, elephants, and a
Speaker 2: protected in a Venice lagoon.
Speaker 3: I didn't even know you could hunt in Venice lagoon.
Speaker 1: Like I said, lovely guy, lovely guy, No, I think,
Speaker 1: but none of those things would bother dom you Non Senior.
Speaker 2: No, that's true.
Speaker 3: But look, I can't believe I'm doing this. But it
Speaker 3: does look like Don Senior had a busy weekend because
Speaker 3: the iarandi that he references, it does look like it's
Speaker 3: about to happen and look, he did start the war
Speaker 3: that he is now negotiating the peace deal for so
Speaker 3: one might suggest that if he hadn't started the war,
Speaker 3: he could have attended the wedding. But retrospects is easy,
Speaker 3: isn't it. It's always easy to say in retrospect what
Speaker 3: you'd rather do. So we just heard him speak in
Speaker 3: a press conference and then he followed it up with
Speaker 3: a truth social post.
Speaker 2: Yea, which is like, in the amount of the amount
Speaker 2: of time you've spent releasing statements about this wedding, you
Speaker 2: should have just gone. But he's like, he would really
Speaker 2: like me to go, like my son really like me
Speaker 2: to go. And it's like yeah, because, which is weird.
Speaker 1: There's a power play right between the Donaldso is that
Speaker 1: Donald can be like, I don't have to come to
Speaker 1: your wedding.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: But the funny thing is that Donald Trump literally two
Speaker 2: weeks ago had an event to promote a future UFC
Speaker 2: about at the White House, Like he commits to things
Speaker 2: that are so ridiculous and unimportant cler and then I
Speaker 2: act like he couldn't possibly go to his son's wedding.
Speaker 3: Fly it's a really expensive right now. Have you noticed
Speaker 3: that he has a plane, and it was all quite quick.
Speaker 3: They got engaged in December. It's may look you got
Speaker 3: to get cheap airf as you have to book way ahead.
Speaker 3: So I'm just thinking that maybe he dropped the ball
Speaker 3: on the organizational part of it.
Speaker 2: My favorite part is that Mary Trump, donald Trump's niece,
Speaker 2: has come out and just stirred some shit, which is
Speaker 2: always really nice. She said, give me a break. He
Speaker 2: doesn't want to go because he can't stand his kid.
Speaker 2: And then she is a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 3: She is.
Speaker 2: She said he's incapable of loving, and but she also
Speaker 2: she basically said, and I think this is the point
Speaker 2: you're making as well, Amelia, which is, take one look
Speaker 2: at Donald Trump Junior. I don't particularly feel sorry for
Speaker 2: him in this situation. I'm not thinking that poor that
Speaker 2: poor man waiting for his dad.
Speaker 3: The projected ducks exactly after the break What celebrities have
Speaker 3: taken from us? Our obsession with celebrities has had a
Speaker 3: bad side effect, says celebrity Pempadgeley. It is robbed us
Speaker 3: of stories. Allow Penn to explain on his podcast pod Crushed.
Speaker 6: No, I definitely I've been thinking about this more and more,
Speaker 6: Like I when I watched things now. I'm sorry, I
Speaker 6: call it what it is. I feel like, I'm just
Speaker 6: all I can think of is like, oh, there's that
Speaker 6: famous person doing it, delivering a performance. I celebrity culture
Speaker 6: is actually like robbing us of stories because there's because
Speaker 6: you know, in some ways agreed, the craft of cinema
Speaker 6: is becoming more and more elevated. You know, people are
Speaker 6: getting more and more specialized, We're capable of.
Speaker 3: More and more.
Speaker 6: But the stories are full of the same celebrities. And
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, it's just like, let's be real, that's what
Speaker 6: we all think. We're like, Wow, yeah, Timmy Schallamay is
Speaker 6: killing this right now.
Speaker 3: What this Gossip Girl star just said really clicked something
Speaker 3: in my brain. It's why people loved Heated Rivalry. It's
Speaker 3: because we've never seen these actors before, so you could
Speaker 3: get fully immersed into the roles. It's why people are
Speaker 3: now loving the show off Campus, which I hear that
Speaker 3: you think is fantastic, and it's it's.
Speaker 2: You're not distracted by knowing these people, knowing anything about
Speaker 2: their lives. You just you just believe that it is
Speaker 2: the story exactly.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, there is this huge debate right now over the
Speaker 3: forthcoming movie of the Odyssey. Much of that debate is
Speaker 3: deeply ridiculous, but nonetheless there is a debate that threatens
Speaker 3: to overshadow the movie. And that's got the most insane
Speaker 3: cast of all time. It's got mad Damon, it's got
Speaker 3: Anne Hathaway, it's got Charlie's throat, It's got Zendea. Now,
Speaker 3: speaking of Zendeia, this is I think he's onto something.
Speaker 3: If you look at the three biggest young actresses in
Speaker 3: Hollywood right now, arguably I think you would say they
Speaker 3: are Zendaya, they are Emma Stone, and they are Margo Robbie.
Speaker 3: We don't know a lot about these three women. I
Speaker 3: would say we barely know if Zendeia as married. We
Speaker 3: only recently learned Emma Stone's actual name is Emily and
Speaker 3: Margot Robbie has literally mentioned her baby in public once
Speaker 3: and it was in passing.
Speaker 2: And none of them I don't think have like active
Speaker 2: behind the scenes social media. Like they're very much like
Speaker 2: you know them from interviews where they don't give much
Speaker 2: away in terms of their personal life, right.
Speaker 3: Right, Who was Emmastone married to I barely know? And
Speaker 3: then compare say and Naomi Watson and Nicole Kidman Naomi Watts.
Speaker 3: I don't know a lot about what's going on in
Speaker 3: her life, but she just rather convincingly played Jackie Oh
Speaker 3: in one thing and then someone completely different than something else.
Speaker 3: And I would argue that Nicole Kidman is kind of
Speaker 3: playing the one role, which is rich lady in Ashore,
Speaker 3: and I wonder if she's capable or if we're capable
Speaker 3: of believing her in anything else. To be clear, she's
Speaker 3: got the acting chops, but it's about how we're receiving
Speaker 3: those roles.
Speaker 1: I don't understand why this is new, Like as in
Speaker 1: movie stars are as old as movies, Marilyn Monroe, Humphrey Bogart,
Speaker 1: Greta Garbo. Right, We've always been fascinated by famous people,
Speaker 1: and then the people get famous and we want to
Speaker 1: go see them in things. So that's like literally they'll say,
Speaker 1: can that person open a movie? And the more we
Speaker 1: know about them, the more likely they are to open
Speaker 1: a movie. So is this conversation about it's not about fame,
Speaker 1: it's about social media? Is that what we're saying? Because
Speaker 1: Margot Robbie, for example, in both her campaigns for Barbie
Speaker 1: and Wuthering Heights, was everywhere I looked for a year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like everywhere I looked. So it's not like she's hiding
Speaker 1: and some kind of recluse. Is it about personal brand
Speaker 1: versus actor brand?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I was thinking we used to what Penn
Speaker 2: Badgeley's saying, it used to be the complete opposite in
Speaker 2: that remember when there was an era of like the
Speaker 2: Love Actually movie and it's like you just had movies
Speaker 2: that that had so many big names in it you
Speaker 2: couldn't even count.
Speaker 3: And that's why we went to the movie that reached
Speaker 3: its nadea when there was the He's Just Not That
Speaker 3: into You movie, and then we thought we've gone too
Speaker 3: far as a culture.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's true. Look look at the Odyssey
Speaker 1: that's you just called out. Like every single famous actor
Speaker 1: in Hollywood wants to be in a Christopher Nolan movie.
Speaker 1: Everyone wants to be in White Lotus, everybody wants to
Speaker 1: be in whatever, and they're all campaigning for it. I
Speaker 1: think the difference is whether or not they do brand
Speaker 1: work as well as acting work, right. So one of
Speaker 1: the things that's interesting about the modern world is like
Speaker 1: all the celebrities have to be what we call diversified
Speaker 1: so as well as being an actor, it used to
Speaker 1: be a bit shameful to also have a tequila brand,
Speaker 1: a makeup line, be the face of this, the face
Speaker 1: of that. We've kind of done away with that judgment,
Speaker 1: and now I mean Margot Robert. He has a massive
Speaker 1: contract with Chanelle for example, you know, and we have
Speaker 1: Chalameaie was a really interesting example that badgely used there
Speaker 1: because he's trying to walk this line.
Speaker 2: He used to be.
Speaker 1: Until relatively recently, i'd say, very respected as an actor,
Speaker 1: and then his choice of girlfriend and his visibility around that.
Speaker 1: We've talked about that before has kind of confused everybody,
Speaker 1: and now we think, oh, are you a reality star
Speaker 1: or are you a serious actor? But I think they've
Speaker 1: been told that they can make more money and they
Speaker 1: can therefore have more clout, more power to make the
Speaker 1: movies they want to make all those things. If they
Speaker 1: do lots of brand deals, have a hot sauce, you know,
Speaker 1: have all of that stuff, does it damage their ability
Speaker 1: to make people turn out for them. I don't know
Speaker 1: that it does. I don't know that I would argue
Speaker 1: that it does.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it does, but I wonder if
Speaker 2: it affects storytelling like I do think. For example, I
Speaker 2: saw the the Ryan Gosling movie The Space One Project Projectail,
Speaker 2: and that is obviously like literally just him in a
Speaker 2: frigging spaceship the whole time.
Speaker 1: That he's a really interesting example because he's walking this line.
Speaker 2: Yes, and he but at the same time, you're very
Speaker 2: aware that it's Ryan Gosling. I'm watching it because I
Speaker 2: find him charismatic and funny and interesting in all of that.
Speaker 2: Was I like as immersed in the story or was
Speaker 2: I distracted by Ryan Gosling? You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yes, because that's what Penna's saying. He's not saying that
Speaker 3: it necessarily necessarily affects bankability or how much money you make.
Speaker 3: He's saying that it's taking us out of stories. We
Speaker 3: talked about tell us with before. When her double album,
Speaker 3: The Tortured Poets Department came out, everyone wanted to listen
Speaker 3: to that to understand what had happened between her and
Speaker 3: her ex Joe Alwin. Now it turned out to not
Speaker 3: be about Joe at all, But that's a different conversation.
Speaker 3: Were people able to immerse themselves fully in the music
Speaker 3: or were they listening in part because they wanted the gossip.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's different because she literally is making a
Speaker 1: project that is her words, her work, like, whereas Gosling
Speaker 1: is playing a partner movie. Right, so he's an actor.
Speaker 1: It's a different job, right, I would say that's what
Speaker 1: a movie star is. Like the reason that movie is
Speaker 1: huge is because Ryan Gosling is in it. Yes, and
Speaker 1: he does a great job. And is the fact that
Speaker 1: he is really likable and charismatic and handsome is what
Speaker 1: got us to the movies in the first pl.
Speaker 2: Yes, but I don't know, Like, for example, even thinking
Speaker 2: about something like Guardians of the Galaxy, which again is
Speaker 2: like star studded, I couldn't really tell you what that
Speaker 2: story is about. I'm not in a story. I'm watching
Speaker 2: famous people. Whereas I think the biggest like storytelling phenomenons
Speaker 2: of our time, you look at adolescents, for example. I
Speaker 2: think a huge part of that was that several of
Speaker 2: those actors, one they seem like real people, and two
Speaker 2: they were relative unknown.
Speaker 1: We can't compare adolescents with Guardians.
Speaker 3: Of the Galaxy, but okay, or these are.
Speaker 1: Two very different like projects with very different goals.
Speaker 3: Okay, but let's get back to the Margot Robbie example,
Speaker 3: because I think she's really interesting on this point. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: she has been everywhere for two sort of essentially consecutive
Speaker 3: projects that she did, but she was everywhere in service
Speaker 3: of promoting.
Speaker 2: The movie and the story of the movie.
Speaker 3: So a lot has been made of her kind of
Speaker 3: thematic dressing on red carpets ahead of these movies coming out.
Speaker 3: In Wuthering Heights, she had a very distinctive sort of
Speaker 3: Victorian romantic, corseted vibe. And then for Barbie, she very
Speaker 3: famously worked with the stylist Andrew Murakama on a kind
Speaker 3: of dole like bubblegum pink aesthetic, and that was to
Speaker 3: serve the movie, to get us intrigued and our curiosity
Speaker 3: peaked about the movie. I still don't know anything about
Speaker 3: her family life, and I'm delighted not to know.
Speaker 1: No, I agree with you about that, but she has
Speaker 1: definitely reached a level of fame where the people who
Speaker 1: didn't like Wuthering Heights, that was part of the critique,
Speaker 1: they said, I can't look past Margot Robbie in this film.
Speaker 3: She is not. That was me because I said that
Speaker 3: she has never been as cold as the characters on
Speaker 3: the Moors were in their lives.
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, so you couldn't look past Margot Robbie like
Speaker 1: she has become too big a star to disappear into
Speaker 1: any part that she plays. And I think that that
Speaker 1: is a problem that actors have always grappled with. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that I don't think it's true that our
Speaker 1: obsession with celebrity, which has always been there, but is
Speaker 1: morphed from being just looking at paparazzi pinches of them
Speaker 1: to insisting that they share everything from what they had
Speaker 1: to breakfast to their baby and all those things. I
Speaker 1: think that it's I think it's kind of intensified. The
Speaker 1: sleuthing culture you're talking about with Taylor Swift is definitely intensified.
Speaker 1: But I think that this has always been a problem
Speaker 1: for actors is when they get bigger than the parts,
Speaker 1: they have to do a lot more to make you
Speaker 1: believe that they're that pass.
Speaker 3: And there's also a certain strategy in their public persona
Speaker 3: Like I would say that Emma Stone, you've pointed out
Speaker 3: on this show before, she makes really interesting, somewhat weird
Speaker 3: decisions about what movies she's in. She does a lot
Speaker 3: of art house movies, which she doesn't have to do
Speaker 3: at her level of fame, and maybe that's why. Maybe
Speaker 3: what we're talking about here, another word for it is
Speaker 3: exposure and the issue of overexposure. Emma Stone, despite having
Speaker 3: two Academy Awards and being the most decorated actress of
Speaker 3: her generation, somehow does not feel over exposed. And maybe
Speaker 3: that's because she's made very conscious decisions to keep herself
Speaker 3: out of the public eye in these ways.
Speaker 2: And she's unique in that. I reckon there's a bit
Speaker 2: of a cyclical nature to this, and listening to I've
Speaker 2: been listening to Famesick, the Lena Dunham memoir, and I
Speaker 2: think she talks about this that one of the reasons
Speaker 2: for the believability of Girls, and one of the reasons
Speaker 2: it probably did so well, is because it was a
Speaker 2: relatively unknown cast and you believed that that was Adam
Speaker 2: and that was Hannah, and because you didn't know who
Speaker 2: they were. As her brand increased, I think probably as
Speaker 2: a writer she became a writer and a performer, she
Speaker 2: probably became a bit more self aware about what she
Speaker 2: was representing and what she wanted to represent. And you're
Speaker 2: overthinking and I'm watching euphoria at the moment, and that's
Speaker 2: what's happened to that right and watching Jacob, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I guarantee that Jacob A. Laudie has sat down with
Speaker 2: Sam Levinson and said, I can't have my character be
Speaker 2: a dick. I can't have my character be who he
Speaker 2: was in previous seasons because that won't work for my
Speaker 2: personal brand. And now the story is bizarre and makes
Speaker 2: absolutely no sense.
Speaker 1: I think that's also just the story of any time
Speaker 1: a TV show or a project get gets enormous, then
Speaker 1: the fame becomes a distraction. Well, have data friends, you know, like,
Speaker 1: but I feel that euphoria. The criticism about this season
Speaker 1: is a lot about that is that this was they
Speaker 1: were all respected actors in their different fields, but now
Speaker 1: they're the biggest stars in the world. You can't look
Speaker 1: past them.
Speaker 2: And there is something about Zendea where in her roles
Speaker 2: she's very kind of stripped back, like she doesn't even
Speaker 2: look like her Really.
Speaker 3: Do you think she sat down and said I want
Speaker 3: this and I don't want this or no.
Speaker 2: I don't think her characters a train wreck. I don't
Speaker 2: think she wants to be there. I don't think, but
Speaker 2: I do think I look at the story and I'm
Speaker 2: like they a one hundred percent. Rewrote this for Jacob
Speaker 2: Alardi's personal brand and Jacob ELORDI like.
Speaker 3: Timo's ay Shallamey has his love life has been a
Speaker 3: subject of conversation, in part because he has made choices
Speaker 3: in his love life that have attracted attention. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Whereas and.
Speaker 3: Daya is, we think, married to another very famous actor,
Speaker 3: and yet for some reason that doesn't overshadow our appreciation
Speaker 3: of her roles.
Speaker 1: But I do think it has always been a thing
Speaker 1: that when you want launch a new show, you want
Speaker 1: unknowns who are going to become stars. That's what Friends was,
Speaker 1: you know, That's what lots of things were, and then
Speaker 1: they become stars and they can no longer be those people.
Speaker 1: It's just the way of the world. Suddenly there are
Speaker 1: a lot of opinions everywhere about beds. I didn't see
Speaker 1: this coming. I have to say, I didn't see this coming.
Speaker 1: It started for me, Amelia when you shared a piece
Speaker 1: in the New York Times that was an interview with
Speaker 1: some very fancy designers who said they posited the radical
Speaker 1: concept that pillow cases should not match. And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: Brent will be happy with that news, since the man
Speaker 1: has never made a bed that matches ever. But they
Speaker 1: were saying, we want color, we want texture, we want personality.
Speaker 1: We don't want the pillow cases to match ever, And
Speaker 1: then I think, think, probably my phone listened to me
Speaker 1: talking to you about that, because it led me to
Speaker 1: the world of influencer Louis Burke, and I know a
Speaker 1: lot of other women too. He's a creative director and
Speaker 1: a designer who has eight hundred thousand followers and has
Speaker 1: very strict rules about beds. Here he is talking about
Speaker 1: what's chic and what's cheap when it comes to making your.
Speaker 4: Bed chic or cheap. Let's talk beds. You understand, and
Speaker 4: you're not afraid of all beige chic. You think beije
Speaker 4: is boring cheap. You wash and change your bed midden
Speaker 4: weekly chic, You have perfect hospital corners chic, You use
Speaker 4: a top sheet chic, and you know to cuffet over
Speaker 4: your dovet sheep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the things he likes. Sorry, did you say
Speaker 3: washing your sheets once week is she or cheap chic?
Speaker 1: If he wants you to have fresh beds, he wants
Speaker 1: you to have fresh beds. That's fine.
Speaker 2: I was hoping you'd say that was cheap. I thought
Speaker 2: he said cheap, and I was like, thank.
Speaker 1: God, things he says it out a cheap pillow chopping.
Speaker 1: You know, when you get your pillow and you chop
Speaker 1: it with your hand to make it go like that.
Speaker 1: Everybody's been doing that on the internet for a long time.
Speaker 1: Out cheap propped up pillows, cheap out top sheets. In
Speaker 1: as he said, he says, you've got to fold your
Speaker 1: douve back further than you think you do with the
Speaker 1: top sheet, coffing the top all the way down, and
Speaker 1: then you have to put your pillows in a pile,
Speaker 1: so not propped up against the bed like this, but
Speaker 1: stacked in a pile like a pile of books.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: That apparently is chic. This man has got a lot
Speaker 1: of women, I know, very upset. How do we feel
Speaker 1: about our beds being judged bed shaming?
Speaker 2: I always look at my bed, and this has been
Speaker 2: since I was sixteen and went to i KA for
Speaker 2: the first time to get my own set of bed sheets.
Speaker 2: Every time I look at my bed, I'm like, it's wrong,
Speaker 2: and I don't know why I still look.
Speaker 1: At it, Because you've been chopping your pillows.
Speaker 2: Definitely not it's definitely because everything matches. But everything matches
Speaker 2: because I can't afford to take a risk. I have
Speaker 2: no taste. I have absolutely no taste. So what am
Speaker 2: I gonna do? Throw clashing colors together?
Speaker 4: So there?
Speaker 1: Do you think there are ways to make so you
Speaker 1: know how I said, Brent never makes a bed that matches.
Speaker 1: It's true. When he makes a bed, he just pulls
Speaker 1: things out like the like the doner doesn't match the sheet,
Speaker 1: the pillow case, and he does not do that to
Speaker 1: be chiced.
Speaker 2: It does not look cheap. The question is does it
Speaker 2: ever look good by accident?
Speaker 1: Oh? Very occasionally. But do you think that the thing
Speaker 1: is here is there's intentional clashing and then there's just
Speaker 1: like Brent level message clashing.
Speaker 3: In that video, he said texture. You don't want texture
Speaker 3: in your bed. I'm like, I can't add this to
Speaker 3: my list to texture in my bed. I just want
Speaker 3: sheets and a blanket.
Speaker 1: He says. It can't be a throw blanket, though, he
Speaker 1: says throw blankets always end up looking like a wet towel,
Speaker 1: and they're not.
Speaker 2: Called actually because wet towels just to be clear on
Speaker 2: the bed.
Speaker 3: Not.
Speaker 2: But everybody like you describing that, I'm like, that's Jesse's bed,
Speaker 2: she always has.
Speaker 3: It's just a bed stylist.
Speaker 2: Okay, Jesse's weirdly quite good at interior design. It's odd
Speaker 2: and I don't understand how she got that skill, and
Speaker 2: I didn't get that skill. But her douna is really thick,
Speaker 2: and then she always folds it down halfway. I don't
Speaker 2: know who told her how.
Speaker 1: To do that, this guy.
Speaker 2: And then and then the pillows are stacked like books,
Speaker 2: not up against the headboard like they are though, like
Speaker 2: if you wanted to sit on your bed.
Speaker 1: Although I'm mad that she people don't do anything except sleep,
Speaker 1: and you know.
Speaker 3: They probably have not two bedroom apartments, they probably have probably.
Speaker 1: Have because I work on my bed a lot, right
Speaker 1: on my bed.
Speaker 3: I eat my bed if I can get away with it.
Speaker 1: I do lots of things in my bed, and I
Speaker 1: need my pillows like that so I can lie on
Speaker 1: the same that's cheap.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's really cheap. But no, my bed
Speaker 2: looks really wrong. Did he say that beige sheep?
Speaker 1: Yes, beige is good.
Speaker 2: The problem with beige is is if you're cheap like me,
Speaker 2: stains and then you never really get them out.
Speaker 1: Depends on the color.
Speaker 2: I don't think Staines is she Yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: And if you just go on a limb there your
Speaker 1: pillowcases match Melia Leicester.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm a bit ashamed.
Speaker 3: I haven't thought a lot about my bed, and like Claire,
Speaker 3: I feel that my taste level is low, you know
Speaker 3: when you had that. I was recently featured in the
Speaker 3: in the Muma mea out loud newsletter, and had a
Speaker 3: few pickies of me in that and one of the
Speaker 3: comments said, she looks different in every picture. And I
Speaker 3: realize that's because I have no point of view in
Speaker 3: my fashion. And if I don't have a point of
Speaker 3: view on my fashion, as sure as heck, don't have
Speaker 3: a point of view on my bed.
Speaker 2: That's me. When when we moved into our current place,
Speaker 2: my sister in law, who's very good at this stuff.
Speaker 3: Was like.
Speaker 2: One word, one word, like what's your oh yeah, what's
Speaker 2: your aesthetic for the place? And I was like what
Speaker 2: Campton's chateau like plane? Like I just couldn't. I was
Speaker 2: like farmhouse kitchen and because you have absolutely no point
Speaker 2: of view, but my bed is just beige and it's
Speaker 2: got beage.
Speaker 4: It is good.
Speaker 2: No, it's not you.
Speaker 1: You can't have a bed with a toddler.
Speaker 2: No, after the break the trade wife conversation we've been
Speaker 2: wanting to have for weeks sixteen minutes. Typical blue and
Speaker 2: pink jobs, boyd jobs and girl jobs, generation old fashion
Speaker 2: that means submitting to my husband.
Speaker 1: The rise and rise of the traad.
Speaker 2: Do you see the tradewife movement as a warning? Absolutely?
Speaker 3: I don't think this movement is just led by women.
Speaker 2: A novel about tradwives Yesteryear has been dominating our social
Speaker 2: media for quite a while now, so it's we've all
Speaker 2: heard about the novel and how Anne Hathaway bought the
Speaker 2: riots and she's going to be in the movie, and
Speaker 2: so many out louders are reading it.
Speaker 1: We talked about it on a subset last week with
Speaker 1: mea yes.
Speaker 2: And then what I find interesting about that is that
Speaker 2: the trad wife phenomenon idea is a few years old,
Speaker 2: but it's really resonating right now, and it also keeps
Speaker 2: popping up in other aspects of culture. So last night
Speaker 2: there was a sixty minutes called The Truth about Tradwives
Speaker 2: and the Men who want Them. It followed two couples,
Speaker 2: Amber and Kreshi, who have two daughters and embrace pink
Speaker 2: jobs and blue jobs in their home. That's an idea
Speaker 2: that came up on Married at First Sight last season,
Speaker 2: and Janey and Austin an American couple who don't have
Speaker 2: kids yet, which makes Janey a stay at home girlfriend.
Speaker 2: Then there's a new Australian novel called The Marriage Trap
Speaker 2: by Victoria Perman, and it explores the of the historical
Speaker 2: tradwife era and what women have to lose if they
Speaker 2: return there. A recent episode of The Rest Is Entertainment
Speaker 2: also delved into where the tradwives have killed feminism and
Speaker 2: where the cultural phenomenon really came from. It's just a
Speaker 2: conversation that keeps coming up. What do we think is
Speaker 2: behind it? Why are we so obsessed with this idea
Speaker 2: right now? Look, get out your redstring?
Speaker 3: Do you know that meme of I think it's Charlie
Speaker 3: Day with like looking manic and crazy as he's pointing
Speaker 3: out as like elaborate theory he has about something. Here's
Speaker 3: my elaborate theory. I don't think it's a coincidence that
Speaker 3: this is all happening right now and in fact. One
Speaker 3: of the experts interviewed last night on the sixty minute segment,
Speaker 3: who was a professor at King's College, London, made this
Speaker 3: point as well. So I feel a little vindicated. I
Speaker 3: think there are a lot of men who have a
Speaker 3: lot of power who they might not be overtly sexist.
Speaker 3: They might not get up every day motivated by the
Speaker 3: idea that they want women out of the workforce. But
Speaker 3: I think they think things would be a little tidier
Speaker 3: and a little nicer and a little simpler if women
Speaker 3: just stopped trying to go into paid employment. And this
Speaker 3: occurred to me last week because Jeff Bezos was interviewed
Speaker 3: on CNBC. He said a lot of insane things. He
Speaker 3: said that fifty percent of the population doesn't need to
Speaker 3: pay tax. He dodged questions about why he himself doesn't
Speaker 3: pay tax, And he told us that he's definitely going
Speaker 3: to give away most of his wealth, which is cool.
Speaker 1: Right, I would like him to do this.
Speaker 3: He's definitely going to do it. He hasn't told us where,
Speaker 3: nor where or how, but he's definitely going to do it.
Speaker 3: But one remark he made did not get enough attention
Speaker 3: in my view, and it's about the effects of AI
Speaker 3: on the workforce. I personally found it chilling.
Speaker 7: Let's listen, what's really going to happen is we're going
Speaker 7: to have so much productivity in our economy that for exams,
Speaker 7: this is one effect a lot of people who have
Speaker 7: two earner income households, Right, what are the people who
Speaker 7: is going to drop out of the workforce? That's why
Speaker 7: we're going to have a labor shortage.
Speaker 1: I'm really confused. What does he mean by that?
Speaker 3: He means that one person in a two parent household
Speaker 3: is just going to drop out of the workforce because
Speaker 3: the robots are going to be doing everything and this
Speaker 3: is apparently a good thing. This is part of his
Speaker 3: conversation about why we should be so happy about AI.
Speaker 2: But is aren't robots devaluing the work of human beings economically,
Speaker 2: and so no one's going to be earning enough money
Speaker 2: to be a single app income household.
Speaker 3: All I know is that Jeff says be happy because
Speaker 3: there's going to be fewer jobs and that we don't
Speaker 3: need to have dual income households anymore. But again, do
Speaker 3: I think Jeff is pushing for AI because he wants
Speaker 3: women out of the workplace? No, he was raised by
Speaker 3: a single mother. He's never said anything overtly sexist. But
Speaker 3: I do think again that he's not necessarily thinking through
Speaker 3: what that means for women, who would be the vast
Speaker 3: majority of people in these two parent households who would
Speaker 3: be dropping out of paid work. Bob Catter last week
Speaker 3: also said he said the quiet part out loud. He
Speaker 3: did an interview with journalist Victoria Divine. Divine thought they
Speaker 3: were going to talk about how he wants to expand
Speaker 3: mining in Queensland, but he had other ideas and I'm
Speaker 3: just going to read to you what he said to her.
Speaker 3: Before I could ask him about his economic interest in
Speaker 3: that proposal, Kata cut me off to say, it's to
Speaker 3: get you enough money so that you can stay home
Speaker 3: and have some kids like every other Australian mother has
Speaker 3: done for the last two hundred years, which you can't
Speaker 3: do now. It's not an option that's available to you,
Speaker 3: whether people want to do it or not. I just
Speaker 3: want to give them that option.
Speaker 2: Thanks Bob, Thanks Bob.
Speaker 1: I think I think that Amelia is right about the
Speaker 1: fact that there are there are a lot of big
Speaker 1: forces of pushing the tradwifi business right but I worry
Speaker 1: that the kind of debate that we end up having
Speaker 1: about it. When I say we, I don't necessarily mean
Speaker 1: the three of us, but I mean, you know, online
Speaker 1: the rgibarji about it. We've been led by the nose
Speaker 1: into a culture war about it, which is it's always
Speaker 1: then framed as and the sixty minute piece was a
Speaker 1: bit like this yesterday. Anyone who isn't broadly supportive of
Speaker 1: the women who choose to stay home in these ways
Speaker 1: and do homemaker things and make bread from scratching, all
Speaker 1: those cliches that tradwives do, if they're troubled by it,
Speaker 1: it's some kind of twisted feminist nonsense, and that really
Speaker 1: this is a war between women who work outside the
Speaker 1: home women who don't work outside the home. And I
Speaker 1: think it needs any discussion about tradwifism has to be
Speaker 1: really clear that tradwives need one very specific ingredient to
Speaker 1: make them tradwives and not just women who stay home.
Speaker 1: And that is the submission part. The whole point about
Speaker 1: tradwives is that it is a declaration that their husband,
Speaker 1: their partner, is the head of the household, and that
Speaker 1: it's embracing a traditional role. It isn't about whether or
Speaker 1: not you can afford or want to stay at home
Speaker 1: and be with your children for longer. It isn't about
Speaker 1: whether or not you want to make food or buy
Speaker 1: it in. It isn't about any of those things. It's
Speaker 1: about the idea of submission that is critical in trad
Speaker 1: wife culture. And I think that when we all start
Speaker 1: discussing whether or not we think it's anti feminist that
Speaker 1: a woman likes making dinner, we've lost it, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Because that's not what this is about
Speaker 1: at all. And I think it's really there are lots
Speaker 1: of really good reasons. I know we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about why this tradwife ism is a very appealing aesthetic
Speaker 1: because it seems it's often non urban, not in a city.
Speaker 1: You've got space, you've got time, you seem to have
Speaker 1: more choices about how you spend that time. You're in
Speaker 1: a beautiful setting, you're wearing something gorgeous, your children are
Speaker 1: all well behaved, the food looks delicious. It doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like you're wishing to drop the kids at childcare and
Speaker 1: then get on the bus to sit on a train
Speaker 1: in the rain to get to your meeting. It's the
Speaker 1: opposite of that, right, and so many of us are
Speaker 1: so exhausted and burnt out by the need to constantly
Speaker 1: keep puzzling just to have a lifestyle that seems vaguely
Speaker 1: appealing that, of course this looks much more appealing, But
Speaker 1: I think we have to be savvy to what it's
Speaker 1: really selling us, which is submission.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, and I think you're right that that bit
Speaker 2: gets ignored in favor of all the other aesthetic distracting
Speaker 2: parts of what tradwife life looks like. What I found
Speaker 2: really interesting about the Rest Is Entertainment episode where they
Speaker 2: looked at a bunch of research into this and there
Speaker 2: was all sorts of polling. They kind of attributed it
Speaker 2: to a sense of false nostalgia that basically depicting depicting
Speaker 2: a lifestyle that never actually existed. Even what Bob Katta
Speaker 2: said about women have for two hundred years haven't worked
Speaker 2: outside the home, they were able to just have children.
Speaker 3: I don't think he's necessarily correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thinking about as history, I know I thought
Speaker 2: he'd be I thought he'd be right. But there's there's
Speaker 2: this idea of we like to look back at this
Speaker 2: bygone era of a simpler life, less technology, less less
Speaker 2: of a rush, less comparison, less of that, and that's
Speaker 2: what we find really really appealing. So they call it
Speaker 2: this idea of returnism versus futurism. So there are some
Speaker 2: people who, in terms of how they see the future
Speaker 2: of society, they actually want it to go back in time,
Speaker 2: and there are others who are very excited about technological advances.
Speaker 2: And apparently forty seven percent of gen Z's want to
Speaker 2: live in the past, which I'm like, Oh, when I
Speaker 2: was growing up, I had no desire to go back decades.
Speaker 2: I was excited about the present and the future. And
Speaker 2: this whole kind of I get it served to me
Speaker 2: all the time, and I do find it really appealing,
Speaker 2: this whole cottage core thing of like being at home
Speaker 2: and it's cozy and there's a textured bed with a
Speaker 2: textured bed and you're just kind of sitting around reading
Speaker 2: and you're not getting notifications on your phone and the
Speaker 2: pace of life is slow, and I think that is
Speaker 2: what a lot of the tradwife stuff is appealing to. Interestingly,
Speaker 2: the research in the UK has shown there was an
Speaker 2: interesting question about like who out of like public figures,
Speaker 2: who do you think reflects like tradwife values, and one
Speaker 2: of them was Princess Kate. And when you think about it,
Speaker 2: there is something about the stuff that she she's very
Speaker 2: like in nature. It's been very much like by grounding
Speaker 2: herself in nature and being with her family that has
Speaker 2: been really helpful. And there's a bit of like a
Speaker 2: CPO tone to her images where it's this cozy, warm
Speaker 2: vibe and that is aspirational for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: It's very aspirational. I moved to the country because I
Speaker 1: specifically wanted that I grow vegetables. I like cooking food.
Speaker 1: Like but this is my point, we're getting it all
Speaker 1: mixed up. So it's like Kate is not a trad well, actually,
Speaker 1: maybe she actually is a tradwine.
Speaker 2: The royals are.
Speaker 1: Quite because she is married to the man who will
Speaker 1: be king, so I guess by definition he probably is
Speaker 1: head of the household.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like she'll have to admit the rest of the king.
Speaker 1: That's not really what her vibe is. But the I
Speaker 1: think the yearning that's so interesting that point Claire about
Speaker 1: yearning for a simpler time. It's defined by that whole
Speaker 1: I hate it here statement, right, which is basically living
Speaker 1: life online I hate it heres are coming to do everything.
Speaker 1: I hate it here, Like I don't know whether it's
Speaker 1: it is a very anxiety inducing time.
Speaker 3: Just said to be happy, Holly. That was the whole
Speaker 3: point of that interview.
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't. That does not give me any reassurance.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, and this is the hypocrisy that
Speaker 1: also needs to be pointed out by the tradwive culture,
Speaker 1: and this was also borne out by one of the
Speaker 1: couples who were interviewed on sixty minutes last night. Is
Speaker 1: that a lot of the tradwives who are selling this
Speaker 1: on social media. Of course they are working, That's exactly
Speaker 1: what they're doing. And the stay at home wife who
Speaker 1: was on sixty minutes last night, the American couple, she's
Speaker 1: a content creator and that's a job, like it is
Speaker 1: definitely a job. She gets paid to make content. That
Speaker 1: is not an easy thing to do. And so I
Speaker 1: think the thing that is worrying about it is not
Speaker 1: that women might choose to stay home and might choose
Speaker 1: to want to do things in a domestic realm that
Speaker 1: has been devalued, and you can definitely argue that it's
Speaker 1: been devalued, but that now they're saying that a quarter
Speaker 1: up to forty percent gen Z men when polled, say
Speaker 1: that they believe that their wives should obey them. Well,
Speaker 1: it's that is the scary bit to me. It's nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the sour though. It's got nothing to
Speaker 1: do with being driven out of the city because it
Speaker 1: can't afford to live a decent life of being sick
Speaker 1: of talking about house prices all the time. That's not scary.
Speaker 3: What's scary is the obey It's not just that domestic
Speaker 3: labor has been devalued. It's not valued at all. It's unpaid.
Speaker 3: And that is why this chad wife lifestyle probably needs
Speaker 3: to come with a bit of a health warning because
Speaker 3: the appeal of it, I think, as you pointed out, Claire,
Speaker 3: is obvious and apparent. But women aged over fifty five
Speaker 3: are among the fastest growing cohort of people experiencing homelessness
Speaker 3: in Australia, and this can be linked in large part
Speaker 3: to the fact that a majority of those women who
Speaker 3: are at risk performed unpaid domestic labor for most of
Speaker 3: their lives. Now, this is not to say that everyone
Speaker 3: who has prayorized or has ultimately ended up performing unpaid domestically,
Speaker 3: but for most of their lives will experience homelessness. Of
Speaker 3: course not nor nor is it right to say that
Speaker 3: everyone who looks after the home and performs that very
Speaker 3: important work is submitting to their husband. But it's to
Speaker 3: say that it's a risk that if you put your
Speaker 3: financial future in the hands of your partner, you are
Speaker 3: at a greater risk of ending up with nothing.
Speaker 2: There's two aspects here, and one is the men who
Speaker 2: are promoting this chadwife ideal. The other is the women
Speaker 2: who are buying into it as well, and a lot
Speaker 2: of the chidwife content. It's not men who are watching
Speaker 2: the tradwife content, it's women. I love it, yeah, And
Speaker 2: although many of us a kind of hate watching it,
Speaker 2: there are some people who are finding it very aspirational.
Speaker 2: And I do think there's something to be said about
Speaker 2: how for a lot of us we feel like we
Speaker 2: were given a binary choice between being a girl boss
Speaker 2: or a trad wife. Like you kind of had to.
Speaker 2: There was a girl boss era of the twenty tens
Speaker 2: where it was like work, work, work, work, work, don't
Speaker 2: listen to your body.
Speaker 3: Well, go back with them, agreed too. I mean, girl
Speaker 3: boss is making a return too. Interestingly that binary choice.
Speaker 2: Exactly that it's like you feel like you have to
Speaker 2: choose one, like you're either em agreed or your ballerina farm.
Speaker 2: And the reality is no, most human beings sit somewhere
Speaker 2: in between, and if we have more equality in our households,
Speaker 2: then we can have more equality when it comes to work.
Speaker 2: Like we're just as the expert said on sixty Minutes
Speaker 2: last night, We're not at a point of equality where
Speaker 2: this is just about choice.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, And it's interesting because when you say that
Speaker 1: you can pick a girl boss or a trad wife,
Speaker 1: it really I think it's it's true when you look around.
Speaker 1: I'm always interested in the versions of womanhood that are
Speaker 1: being sold to, particularly young women. But it's nonsense because
Speaker 1: nearly everyone listening to this will be somewhere in the
Speaker 1: middle of all those things and we don't have to
Speaker 1: pick anything, you know. But I also think that I
Speaker 1: personally I love watching tradwife content because I find it
Speaker 1: fascinating and I find it really I'm always interested by
Speaker 1: things that are really different from my life. In terms
Speaker 1: of why you would choose to say, my husband is
Speaker 1: the head of the house, I do what he says,
Speaker 1: like I'm like, what and I like seeing it, But
Speaker 1: also I do love the aesthetic like I love it.
Speaker 1: I love country life and fresh veggies and let's make
Speaker 1: butter from scratch. But you've just got to be aware
Speaker 1: that a lot of this stuff is being served to
Speaker 1: you with almost a subliminal message about something much darker,
Speaker 1: which is about women giving up the right to their
Speaker 1: own autonomy over their bodies, their lives, their jobs, their money.
Speaker 1: So like, enjoy the sour dough, but don't quit your job.
Speaker 2: One thing that's really promising about the data that they
Speaker 2: talked about on the rest of His Entertainment is that
Speaker 2: when they were researching about people's men and women's views
Speaker 2: about trade, wife culture and feminism and all of that,
Speaker 2: men who are in relationships with women are far more
Speaker 2: likely to identify as feminists, and men who aren't far
Speaker 2: less likely. And I think that that's the thing, and
Speaker 2: that's a little bit of the comfort that I'm like
Speaker 2: a lot of these like you've got. On sixty minutes,
Speaker 2: you had Tyson from Married at First Sight, who is
Speaker 2: a single man in his big Gold Coast home talking
Speaker 2: about how he just wants to put his wife in
Speaker 2: the kitchen and I'm like that you will find that
Speaker 2: that is totally incompatible when you actually have to live
Speaker 2: with a real human woman, Like, it is very unlikely
Speaker 2: that that binary masculine and feminine life is going to happen.
Speaker 1: Well, there are plenty of women who would want to
Speaker 1: move into that house, like. I think that This is
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I say I think sometimes
Speaker 1: are being led into a cultural argument, because there are
Speaker 1: plenty of women who are like I would love that.
Speaker 1: I don't want to work outside the home. I want
Speaker 1: to live in that nice house and cook dinner and
Speaker 1: whatever like this. It's not wrong to want those things. No, Well,
Speaker 1: the pit of it that's scary is that Tyson from
Speaker 1: math is telling you what to do everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's what I mean is that you would
Speaker 2: hope that even if you know jen Z men for example,
Speaker 2: are having these ideas that as they end up in
Speaker 2: long term relationships and as they tackle all the problems
Speaker 2: of our time, such as cost of living and raising children.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hilarious them talking about being the providers
Speaker 2: when I'm like, yeah, you try and do that, you
Speaker 2: try and provide for a household on one income. I
Speaker 2: do think that they're going to find that it just
Speaker 2: isn't possible, unlike what our friends Jeff says and the.
Speaker 3: King's College professor we've been mentioning. He Jung Chung is
Speaker 3: her name, and she said something that really stuck with
Speaker 3: me on this Just as you know, Jeff is selling
Speaker 3: us a particular vision of the future which may or
Speaker 3: may not come to pass, and she points out that
Speaker 3: what the tadwives are depicting never really existed either.
Speaker 1: No, Out Louders, thank you so much for having us
Speaker 1: in your ears. Listen, we have got a treat for
Speaker 1: subscribers tomorrow. We are doing a proper unpack of the
Speaker 1: Kylie Minogue documentary that I know a lot about Loud
Speaker 1: has watched over the weekend. You can obviously save that
Speaker 1: unpack for whenever you have watched it. But we're going
Speaker 1: to go deep. Claire is joining me and the Spills
Speaker 1: Laura Brodnick, who is the expert in all things entertainment,
Speaker 1: to go deep on the Kyle Venoge Show.
Speaker 3: And I can't wait.
Speaker 1: It was so good. Anyway, until then, we'll see you
Speaker 1: goodbye bye.
Speaker 2: Mum. Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
Speaker 2: which we've recorded this podcast