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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Makeup is My Therapy.

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Speaker 2: I'm in love, I'm obsess and I don't even feel

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Speaker 2: jailty a body.

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to you beauty.

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Speaker 3: This is the daily podcast for your Face. I'm Kelly

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Speaker 3: McCarran and welcome to the formula.

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Speaker 1: Every week. I well, actually, you know what, let's be real.

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Speaker 3: It's normally erin, but she's prepping to exit human out

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Speaker 3: of her body right now, so you're stuck with me.

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Speaker 3: We sit down with celebrities, experts, and some of the

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Speaker 3: biggest names in beauty and take a look at their

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Speaker 3: skincare routine, chat about trends and topics in the beauty industry.

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Speaker 3: And if you've ever been remotely interested in the wonderful

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Speaker 3: world of beauty, you've probably heard about brands like Glossier, Notorium,

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Speaker 3: Road Skin, Summer Fridays, and now Point of View by TikTok, Sensation,

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Speaker 3: Mikhayla Nighera. Now, all of these brands have several things

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Speaker 3: in common. They're founded by influencers, and they're very successful

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Speaker 3: and very viral, but not everyone thinks there's a place

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Speaker 3: for influencer backed skincare brands. Today, I'm joined by a

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Speaker 3: very well versed, clever woman in the industry with a

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Speaker 3: lot of pervy intel. Georgia South is one half of

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Speaker 3: the dynamic duo behind Skinterest, a Sydney based lab responsible

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Speaker 3: for formulating many of.

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Speaker 1: Your favorite products.

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Speaker 3: She knows about product formulation and how to launch to

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Speaker 3: market better than anyone else I know. So I couldn't

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Speaker 3: think of a better person to chat to about influencer

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Speaker 3: backed skincare brands.

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Speaker 2: You are such beautiful skill.

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Speaker 1: But how Georgia, thank you so much for joining me today.

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Speaker 3: We're going to chat about the category of influencers skincare

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Speaker 3: brands in general, using the newest kit on the block

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Speaker 3: point of view as our example.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Keeli. I think

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Speaker 2: that you invited me instead of one of the scientists

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Speaker 2: because you know I'm more likely to say something spicy.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, No, I invited you instead of the

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Speaker 3: scientist because you are much more entertaining if you will,

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Speaker 3: no pressure.

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Speaker 2: No pressure.

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Speaker 3: But firstly, what is some of the commentary you've seen

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Speaker 3: on the internet about this and Why do you think

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Speaker 3: people love to hate because you put out a great

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Speaker 3: video actually looking at the brand, and you've got some

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Speaker 3: responses going oh blah blah blah, like it's just so silly.

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Speaker 3: So can you explain a little bit, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I mean I think MICHAELA. Deguera is a polarizing

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Speaker 2: persona apparently, you know, people love to hate. I think

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Speaker 2: it's interesting that people seem to be a little bit

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Speaker 2: resentful towards content creators or influencers, and I think some

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Speaker 2: of it stems from the fact that people perceive that

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Speaker 2: they're making money, and often lots of money from something

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Speaker 2: that we perceive has not been very difficult, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: that doesn't sit well with people. I think it's unfair

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Speaker 2: because making content is hard. You know, even the couple

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Speaker 2: of videos I do for our business Instagram, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of talent that it takes to be able to

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Speaker 2: write edit content. It all takes time and skill. So

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Speaker 2: I think we shouldn't negate that skill set that influencers have,

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Speaker 2: because you know, it's real and it exists. I think

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Speaker 2: also there's jealousy over what people perceive as the glamorous

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Speaker 2: side of it. You know, they see the freebies. They

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Speaker 2: see the events and the free products, and maybe that

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Speaker 2: all looks really appealing, but the reality is that your

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Speaker 2: mortgage can't be paid with serum and then free products

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Speaker 2: done by groceries, so they've still got to work. And

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Speaker 2: often that leads to them creating their own brands.

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Speaker 3: And I think, well, they see how much money they

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Speaker 3: can bring in for other brands, which is why the

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Speaker 3: brands are paying such huge amounts. Because everyone gets cranky

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Speaker 3: at influences for making so much money, but it's like

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Speaker 3: that brand is paying them that much money for a

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Speaker 3: reason because their return on investment is so much higher.

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Speaker 1: So I guess they sort of see all.

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Speaker 3: That, and after doing it for a few years, they're

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Speaker 3: kind of like, why am I not taking all of

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Speaker 3: the pie and creating something that I love every single

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Speaker 3: part of? And I think think that some of the

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Speaker 3: jealousy also comes from, you know, you do have to

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Speaker 3: have money to start a brand, so there's like that

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Speaker 3: as well, and all of a sudden, someone can a

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Speaker 3: lot easier than maybe someone that doesn't have a following

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Speaker 3: can start a brand.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. So influencers, content creators, celebrities, they have

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Speaker 2: a captive audience they have someone they're ready, willing and

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Speaker 2: waiting to buy a product that they're launching potentially, whereas

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Speaker 2: somebody not working in that area. They have to confine

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Speaker 2: their customers and that is going to take more time,

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Speaker 2: more money, and just be more difficult. The market. It's

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Speaker 2: such a different landscape than it was fifteen years ago.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's global now, it's more saturated for sure,

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Speaker 2: and it's more competitive, but also e commerce and social

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Speaker 2: media they've leveled the playing field so you have less

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Speaker 2: reliance on retailers expensive advertising and pr And I guess

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Speaker 2: what I mean by that is that fifteen years ago,

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Speaker 2: to be successful you probably have to be in a

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Speaker 2: bricks and more to retailer, right and they're taking a margin,

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Speaker 2: and you also need to order large amounts of product

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Speaker 2: to stock them. To get into those retailers. To make sales,

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Speaker 2: you have to obtain magazine or newspaper editorial coverage that

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Speaker 2: was usually done by expensive pr agencies. You had to

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Speaker 2: place print ads if you could afford it, and all

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Speaker 2: that ended up being cost prohibitive for most startups. Whereas

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Speaker 2: narrow you can import or white label a product potentially

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Speaker 2: at a low minimum order quantity. You can sell it

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Speaker 2: direct to consumers, so you're keeping all the profit. You've

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Speaker 2: cut out that margin from a retailer because it's your

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Speaker 2: own channels, and if you're lucky, you can go viral

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Speaker 2: through some user generated content or working with content creators.

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Speaker 2: So suddenly you can see that the barriers to entry

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Speaker 2: have become much lower and the category is more appealing

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Speaker 2: for somebody looking to make money.

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Speaker 3: What is the actual cost of making a beauty product?

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Speaker 3: Because Mikayla does have investors that would obviously be funding it,

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Speaker 3: but they wouldn't invest if they didn't believe in her

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Speaker 3: and what she was selling. So what sort of costs

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Speaker 3: are we looking at to launch a product range like

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Speaker 3: what she's done.

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Speaker 2: Product costs, they're really it's too variable to list, and

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Speaker 2: there's really significant upfront costs for a brand though. So

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Speaker 2: for Mikayla, she had five SKUs or different products. If

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Speaker 2: her manufacturer had a minimum order quantity of say ten

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Speaker 2: thousand units, that's fifty thousand units in total. So let's

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Speaker 2: use three dollars per unit as an example, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to use that as a guestimate. Based on her

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Speaker 2: retail price, that's suddenly one hundred and fifty thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: that had to be outlaid on the product before you've

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Speaker 2: even earned a single dollar. And those fifty thousand units

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Speaker 2: also have to be shipped, they have to be stored.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's a really considerable upfront cost with no

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Speaker 2: guarantee of how the products are going to sell.

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Speaker 3: And I actually bet that her upfront order quantities would

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Speaker 3: have been a lot higher given her.

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Speaker 2: Following potentially, and that's you know, her following is what

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Speaker 2: she's bringing to the table. Yeah, these investors in the

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Speaker 2: case for Michayla and who's supporting her, what they're bringing

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Speaker 2: to the table is their expertise and also their ability

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Speaker 2: to better optimize and leverage supply chain and other factors.

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Speaker 2: So they've got a stable of brands and other products

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Speaker 2: so they can deliver cross savings that are economies of scale,

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Speaker 2: all those kinds of things, which is mutually beneficial for

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Speaker 2: both parties. So having a following, yeah, it helps with

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Speaker 2: awareness and gives you a captive audience, but it doesn't

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Speaker 2: eliminate the need for RD and managing other aspects of

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Speaker 2: business operations, which is where these backers will assist.

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Speaker 3: So I think that what a lot of people playing

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Speaker 3: along at home don't realize is that some influencer backed

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Speaker 3: skincare lines.

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Speaker 1: Are you mentioned earlier? White label?

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Speaker 3: Can you please explain what white label actually is and

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Speaker 3: how an influencer would go about launching a white label brand?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure, so, white label, private label, off the shelf, turnkey.

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Speaker 2: There are all sort of terms that get used interchangeably,

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Speaker 2: and the definition between each of them is sort of

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Speaker 2: slowly dissolved and they've kind of merged into one concept.

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Speaker 2: But traditionally, private label is when you work with a

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Speaker 2: manufacturer on and off the shelf kind of formula, so

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Speaker 2: you don't pay for the development and it's absorbed into

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Speaker 2: the production cost. So what it means is that your

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Speaker 2: product is likely not entirely unique white labeling. It's more

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Speaker 2: like renting an existing formula from the manufacturer, so it's

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Speaker 2: very likely similar or identical to a product already in

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Speaker 2: the market under a different brand. White label's really common

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Speaker 2: for sunscreens because they're more expensive to develop and time

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Speaker 2: consuming to bring to market. So it's also common for

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Speaker 2: retailers that have home brands something like baked beans even

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Speaker 2: or sunscreen. It can be the same core product ingredient

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Speaker 2: coming out of the factory and put into brand ABC packaging.

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Speaker 3: Which is why sometimes there could be such a big

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Speaker 3: price discrepancy between two products that are basically the same thing.

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Speaker 1: They're just in different packets.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And it's up to the brand how much

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Speaker 2: exactly they want to add to cover their other costs

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Speaker 2: like marketing or the other costs that are outside of

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Speaker 2: the actual product. And there's nothing wrong with this. I'm

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Speaker 2: not in any way saying that white or private label

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Speaker 2: products are inferior, not at all, because the reality is

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Speaker 2: most brands don't have an in house chemist or an

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Speaker 2: in house lab, so they're relying on working with a

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Speaker 2: manufacturer because it's the fastest and lowest risk way to

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Speaker 2: launch a product, although longer term it can actually end

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Speaker 2: up more expensive, but the cash required to start is less.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is that trends move so quickly nowadays.

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Speaker 2: Everyone wants to go viral, so speed to market is

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Speaker 2: so important that good manufacturers identify trends, capitalize them, and

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Speaker 2: then sell them to multiple parties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think though as well, would it be

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Speaker 3: right to say that, of course, there's nothing wrong with it,

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Speaker 3: but it's probably not a ground breaking product or something

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Speaker 3: that's going to change your life, because otherwise whoever formulate

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Speaker 3: it originally would have trademarked it or patent or whatever

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Speaker 3: the terms would be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's likely true R and D and innovation

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Speaker 2: and experimentation. It can be really expensive, it can be time,

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Speaker 2: can assuming, and it's also risky because there's no guaranteed outcome.

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Speaker 2: So you can understand why brands would take the easier path,

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Speaker 2: but the risk is that you end up with a

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Speaker 2: ce of me too products that are really similar and

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Speaker 2: there's not much of differentiation. And you know, it's not

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Speaker 2: also just influencers that do this, there's HETEs of successful

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Speaker 2: brands that don't know in their own formulas. So your

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Speaker 2: favorite product is actually at the mercy of a manufacturer

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Speaker 2: and it can be discontinued at any point. And that's

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Speaker 2: the real risk for a brand operating in this way,

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Speaker 2: that you know, someone else can pull the plug on

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Speaker 2: your product.

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Speaker 3: And you could be losing a lot of money. With

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Speaker 3: Mikayla's brand, with point of view, when you look at it,

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Speaker 3: would you say that she has done the R and

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Speaker 3: D and formulated herself well, not herself in her kitchen,

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Speaker 3: but like with a team of chemists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it appears that she worked with a team

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Speaker 2: in Korea and with a Korean manufacturer, so it was

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Speaker 2: developed and made in career. From the research that we

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Speaker 2: conducted looking at the products when they released, we don't

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Speaker 2: think that there's similar enough products in the market that

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Speaker 2: it would be white or private label. We do think

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Speaker 2: they're custom formulations.

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Speaker 3: I also think that the investor that they got, it's

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Speaker 3: a huge investor that only invests in pretty successful companies,

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Speaker 3: so I don't think that they would have invested in

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Speaker 3: a white label business.

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Speaker 2: They're also involved with browns like West Mainitilia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that huge, huge.

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Speaker 2: Really impressive stable of brands. They obviously know what they're doing.

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Speaker 3: So when someone says that they're formulating a product. So

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Speaker 3: let's just say someone comes out and I actually don't

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Speaker 3: mean MICHAELA because I don't think she said this at all,

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Speaker 3: but say an influencer comes out and they go, oh,

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Speaker 3: this product's been fifteen years in the making, I've been

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Speaker 3: developing for so long.

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Speaker 1: Why is that actually silly to say?

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Speaker 3: Like, why should we not trust that if an influencer

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Speaker 3: says it or celebrity?

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Speaker 2: Okay, good question.

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Speaker 1: I think Bill the TG Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't want to yack anyone's young, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to take away from any Brown founders and their stories. However,

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Speaker 2: I will say that other than some that's really innovative,

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Speaker 2: or you're creating from scratch, patenting an ingredient, for example,

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Speaker 2: with a prolonged experimentation phase, five years is pretty unusual.

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Speaker 2: If it took you five years to formulate I don't know,

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Speaker 2: say cleanser, even a sunscreen, there's an issue somewhere along

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Speaker 2: the path. It's likely that your brief isn't thorough or

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Speaker 2: well thought out, or you've got a communication issue with

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Speaker 2: your formulator. Another big thing is that maybe you're not

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Speaker 2: being realistic with your expectations, and that should have been

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Speaker 2: managed earlier on in the process by your chemist. So

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Speaker 2: what I mean by that is somebody who may say

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Speaker 2: they want a minimal only SPF fifty, but they don't

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Speaker 2: want it tinted, but they don't want any white cast,

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Speaker 2: and they want it to be really fluid, but they

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Speaker 2: don't want any oil or water. You might be chasing

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Speaker 2: a unicorn and that might be what you do for

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Speaker 2: five years. It shouldn't be that long.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's not like you just worked so hard

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Speaker 3: on it for five years that that's why it took

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Speaker 3: so long. It's actually just that you had no idea

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Speaker 3: what you were doing your maybe I said it, you

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Speaker 3: did it, okay? So can we talk about POV as

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Speaker 3: an example of when an influencer launches their range and

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden it sells out in thirty seconds

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Speaker 3: or whatnot. Do you think that they actually sell out

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Speaker 3: or do you think it's like a marketing technique because

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Speaker 3: if they actually sold out, how long would it take

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Speaker 3: to get the product realistically back on the shelves.

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Speaker 2: So scarcity marketing, it creates a sense of urgency.

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Speaker 1: It works, it doesn't wurk.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to buy it as well.

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Speaker 3: You and I are both massive victims to someone going

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Speaker 3: it's going live at two pm or two am, waking

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Speaker 3: up at that time, checking like you're going to get

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Speaker 3: your hands on it eventually. It's not going to just

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Speaker 3: sell out forever. So it's funny that we all fall

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Speaker 3: victim to that. Oh no, there's only a certain amount.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely my backgrounds in marketing, I'm a marketer. I know

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Speaker 2: what it is, Sam, Yet I still had four goes

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Speaker 2: at getting the Yes style advent calendar until I got

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Speaker 2: my Yes, I've got it right, so it works. There's

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Speaker 2: also a perceived prestige in owning something that's scarce, which

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Speaker 2: I think marketers leverage. The reality is that they are

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Speaker 2: probably holding some stock back, and it's a really fine

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Speaker 2: line that you've got to walk about the supply and

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Speaker 2: selling out concept, because if you're not a celebrity where

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Speaker 2: your customers are going to wait for the next job,

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Speaker 2: and you've got too much financial liability for stock that

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Speaker 2: essentially becomes a ticking time bomb towards expiring once it's

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Speaker 2: been made, you can put yourself in a really vulnerable position.

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Speaker 2: So it's a real balancing act. And higher order has

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Speaker 2: been lower unit prices, so people would generally order as

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Speaker 2: high as they comfortably forecast being able to sell. There's

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Speaker 2: also time that has to be considered in terms of

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Speaker 2: your manufacturer having to order ingredients and then schedule your production.

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Speaker 2: So I would say it's extremely unlikely that she hadn't

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Speaker 2: placed her next order at the time of launch. I

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Speaker 2: would say there's more products sitting in a warehouse somewhere

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Speaker 2: that will be strategically dropped over the coming weeks or months.

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Speaker 2: Because if you're placing an order with your manufacturer today,

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Speaker 2: it could be anywhere between three and six months until

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Speaker 2: you get the production line.

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Speaker 3: That's what I thought, So I always think I'm like,

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Speaker 3: there's no way they're too smart.

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Speaker 2: You would think so because it's missed opportunity. In Australia,

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Speaker 2: most ingredients are imported as well, so you've got that

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Speaker 2: delay too. And the reality is most people just wouldn't

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Speaker 2: want to miss out on the sales. But on the

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Speaker 2: flip side, there's probably people that didn't forecast the success

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Speaker 2: they had. They might have had a really great editorial

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Speaker 2: coverage and they didn't forecast that level of sales and

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Speaker 2: they actually do genuinely sell out and then they're just

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Speaker 2: missing opportunities for the next month or two until they

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Speaker 2: can get product back in stock. But the risk is

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Speaker 2: that by that point the hype has faded.

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Speaker 3: Purely, like if you look at the formulas, what celebrity

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Speaker 3: brands do you think are actually worth the hype celebrity

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Speaker 3: slash influencer.

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Speaker 2: It's tricky to say because an ingredient list isn't the

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Speaker 2: same as a formula, so it's really hard to judge

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Speaker 2: without actually physically trying the products. And also I think

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Speaker 2: another point here is that the line between celebrity and

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Speaker 2: influencer brands becomes a bit blurred because brand owners are

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Speaker 2: expected to step up on social media, and then you

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Speaker 2: kind of move to an interesting point where the founder

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Speaker 2: becomes the celebrity after they've already launched the brand. And

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Speaker 2: then what can often happen is the brand will continue

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Speaker 2: developing beyond the founder and beyond that celebrity and become

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Speaker 2: famous for itself. So something like Glossier, I bet there's

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Speaker 2: a ton of product users that don't actually know the

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Speaker 2: founder's story, and they'll continue to step back as time

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Speaker 2: goes on, let the brand stand for itself. And that's

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Speaker 2: usually at the point they'll sell out. They'll either sell

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Speaker 2: the company to a large conglomerate and make your killing,

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Speaker 2: or they'll sell a share of the company so that

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Speaker 2: they can step away.

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Speaker 3: Which is why it's very smart not to tie your

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Speaker 3: name in sometimes to the like call it who to

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Speaker 3: beauty say, I mean, she's an incredible such a smart

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Speaker 3: business woman, but it will be very hard for her

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Speaker 3: not to be involved in the business.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Absolutely, you do limit yourself, but you know there's

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Speaker 2: other people that become famous following the success of their brands.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, like Violet from Violet fr.

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Speaker 2: Or Natasha Denona or somebody like that who didn't really

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Speaker 2: have such at least an international following Charlotte Tilbury.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know of her before. I mean, she was

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Speaker 3: big in the UK, but she was not international.

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Speaker 2: And now she's a household name exactly. And then you've

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Speaker 2: also got brands that leverage the opportunities that content creators

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Speaker 2: and influencers bring to the table, like TBH partnering with

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Speaker 2: Hannah English, who's not just a content creator but also

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Speaker 2: a scientist cosmetic chemist. So brands can leverage influencers without

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Speaker 2: I guess hanging their hat entirely on that as a strategy.

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Speaker 1: That is a very good point.

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Speaker 3: Finally, what is a skincare technique or ingredient that you

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00:18:00,185 --> 00:18:02,345
Speaker 3: personally love and what's something that you hate?

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Speaker 2: Oh, this is a spicy m The first thing that

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00:18:05,145 --> 00:18:06,985
Speaker 2: spung to mind is a treatment, and I would say

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00:18:07,025 --> 00:18:12,105
Speaker 2: filler because I feel like often people worse rather than better,

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00:18:12,225 --> 00:18:14,625
Speaker 2: and I think it can be really aging. But in

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00:18:14,705 --> 00:18:18,585
Speaker 2: terms of ingredients I reckon, I'd say Bacucci oil. I

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00:18:18,625 --> 00:18:20,665
Speaker 2: think I'm a little bit over it. It seems to

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00:18:20,705 --> 00:18:23,745
Speaker 2: be everywhere at the moment. I think the direct comparisons

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00:18:23,745 --> 00:18:28,025
Speaker 2: to retinoids in terms of is ridiculous. They're overstated, and

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00:18:28,065 --> 00:18:31,625
Speaker 2: there aren't the same long term studies available. Like, you know,

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00:18:31,705 --> 00:18:34,545
Speaker 2: it's an alternative to retinoids in the same way that

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Speaker 2: broccoli is an alternative to chocolate, right, Not really. I've

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00:18:38,705 --> 00:18:41,985
Speaker 2: also read some articles outlining the concern around sourcing and

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Speaker 2: sustainability of it due to its heightened demand that's causing

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00:18:44,825 --> 00:18:47,945
Speaker 2: environmental strain. So for something that's kind of pitched as

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Speaker 2: a natural and greener alternative, it's kind of not that

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Speaker 2: clear cut.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, that's such an interesting point about the environment, because, yeah,

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Speaker 3: the brands really love to green wash the shit out

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 2: It happened in a similar way with palm free alternatives. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just not that simple, unfortunately, when you're looking at

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Speaker 2: something like a global supply chain of an ingredient.

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Speaker 1: But what's something you love? You hate bakuccio, I'm over it,

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Speaker 1: you know what.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be fat, it doesn't have to

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00:19:14,945 --> 00:19:17,185
Speaker 2: be new, it doesn't have to be fandangled. My skin

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Speaker 2: really likes glycerin. My skin responds well to that. Embarrier support.

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00:19:21,745 --> 00:19:24,905
Speaker 2: I think when you're looking at ingredients, anything that's tried

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Speaker 2: to trusted, that's got clinical studies, any kind of data

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Speaker 2: that actually backs up its performance and it's being used

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Speaker 2: at the recommended amount and it's not just a tipping ingredient.

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Speaker 2: That's your best bet.

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Speaker 3: I love that, and that is such a good SoundBite

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Speaker 3: for people because it's like, you know you see things

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Speaker 3: glistered free. Well you've heard it here first. Don't be

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Speaker 3: afraid of glycerin. I love glitcer and personally and.

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Speaker 2: It's so personal, right, No two people's skin is the same,

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Speaker 2: which is why we have such a myriad of brands

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Speaker 2: and products exactly.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's all the time that we have for today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much to Georgia for joining us on

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Speaker 3: You Beauty. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to

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00:20:03,505 --> 00:20:07,465
Speaker 3: subscribe to our Beauty newsletter for more skincare tips, product recommendations,

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Speaker 3: and exclusive content delivered straight to your inbox. You Beauty

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00:20:11,945 --> 00:20:15,185
Speaker 3: is produced by Steph McPhee and Lee Stamps, with audio

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00:20:15,225 --> 00:20:18,265
Speaker 3: production by Tiagan Sudler. Thanks for listening, try and test.

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Speaker 3: It will be in your ears tomorrow