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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Eleven Isis brides and their children have packed up their

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Speaker 2: tents in Assyrian camp and tried to come home, only

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Speaker 2: to be turned back at the border. They say they

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Speaker 2: want out, they want their kids out, but can they

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Speaker 2: actually come back to Australia and do we want them to?

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Speaker 2: It's the Quickie for Thursday, February twenty six. I'm Taylor Strano.

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Speaker 2: First a look at the news headlines with Clare Murphy.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Taylor. The two men arrested yesterday over the alleged

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Speaker 1: abduction and murder of a Sydney grandfather have been charged.

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Speaker 1: Police claim the twenty nine and twenty four year olds,

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Speaker 1: who still live at home with their parents, sent a

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Speaker 1: video of them assaulting eighty five year old Chris Bagsarian,

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Speaker 1: along with a ransom demand that led investigators to a

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Speaker 1: property in Dural which was searched, helping them narrow down

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Speaker 1: the search area for mister Bagsarian to nearby bushland. Human remains,

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Speaker 1: which were confirmed as belonging to mister Bagsarian were located

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Speaker 1: near the Pittown golf course. Earlier this week, CCTV footage

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Speaker 1: from a home near where mister Bagsarian lived shows three

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Speaker 1: men forcing the elderly man into an suv in the

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Speaker 1: early hours of February fifteen. The third man has yet

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Speaker 1: to be located. The pair were arrested by heavily armed

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Speaker 1: police yesterday before being charged with murder. They were refused

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Speaker 1: bail and will appear in Blacktown Local Court today. Former

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Speaker 1: cyclist and swimmer Amanda Reid continues to break new ground

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Speaker 1: by becoming the first indigenous athlete selected for an Australian

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Speaker 1: Winter Paralympics team. Reid was among four para snowboard competitors

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Speaker 1: named in Switzerland on Wednesday night, along with team captain

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Speaker 1: Sewn Pollard, veteran Ben Tudhope and Aaron McCarthy. She has

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Speaker 1: previously won gold medals in track cycling at the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one and twenty four Paralympics. After previously representing Australia

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Speaker 1: in swimming at the twelve Paragames. The twenty nine year

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Speaker 1: old started winter Olympic competition in twenty twenty three, the

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Speaker 1: same year she was named Australian Cyclist of the Year.

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Speaker 1: She will compete in the banked slalom and snowboard cross

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Speaker 1: at the Paralympics from March sixth in Milano, Quartina, US

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Speaker 1: President Donald Trump has broken his own record, delivering the

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Speaker 1: longest State of the Union address in history, over an

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Speaker 1: hour and forty eight minutes. Trump boasted that he has

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Speaker 1: ushered in the Golden Age of America, saying he'd slowed inflation,

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Speaker 1: driven the stock market to record heights, signed sweeping tax cuts,

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Speaker 1: and lowered drug prices, but it was unclear whether his

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Speaker 1: positive assessment would ease American's anger over the cost of living.

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Speaker 1: Trump sought to blame his Democratic predecessor, Joe Biden for

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Speaker 1: high prices, but opinion polls show voters hold Trump responsible

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Speaker 1: for not doing more to improve affordability. Many Democrats chose

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Speaker 1: to skip the speech, with footage from the event showing

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Speaker 1: dozens of empty seats as the lawmakers who usually occupy

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Speaker 1: them instead choosing to join anti Trump rallies outside. The

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Speaker 1: annual speech came at a problematic moment for Trump's presidency,

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Speaker 1: with poll showing most Americans have soured on his performance,

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Speaker 1: anxieties rising over Iran and his signature to Carraff policy

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Speaker 1: foundering after the US Supreme Court struck down most of

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Speaker 1: his import taxes. For much of the speech, Trump appeared

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Speaker 1: to stick to his prepared remarks rather than his usual

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Speaker 1: stream of consciousness digressions, but he did clash with the

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Speaker 1: opposition while discussing his immigration crackdown, exchanging shouted insults with

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Speaker 1: several Democratic lawmakers. Microsoft founder Bill Gates has admitted to

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Speaker 1: having affairs with Russian women while married to Melinda Frenchgates,

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Speaker 1: and has apologized to his staff for his ties to

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. At a Gates Foundation town hall earlier this week,

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Speaker 1: Gates told the assembled staff that he did nothing ilicit

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Speaker 1: and saw nothing illicit after they asked questions about his

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Speaker 1: ties to the convicted child sex offender, the information coming

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Speaker 1: to light after the US Justice Department released millions of

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Speaker 1: files related to the activities of the disgraced financier. In

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Speaker 1: those files, draft emails accused Gates of contracting an STI

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Speaker 1: from Russian girls and then asking for Epstein's help to

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Speaker 1: hide it from his wife, accusing him of attempting to

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Speaker 1: secure the required medication and giving it to his wife

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Speaker 1: without her knowledge. Gates acknowledged at the town hall that

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Speaker 1: he'd had affairs with a Russian bridge player that he

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Speaker 1: met at bridge events and with a Russian nuclear physicist

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Speaker 1: who he met through business activities, but claimed he never

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Speaker 1: spent time with any of Epstein's victims, but admitting it

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Speaker 1: was a huge mistake to spend any time with Epstein

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Speaker 1: after they met in twenty eleven, long after he'd already

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Speaker 1: been convicted of soliciting a minor for prostitution. Gates also

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Speaker 1: credited his ex wife, Melinda for always being skeptical of Epstein.

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Speaker 1: She gave an interview recently where she said Bill Gates

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Speaker 1: needed to answer for his connections with the sex offender.

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Speaker 1: The man whose life was made into a movie about

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Speaker 1: his experience with Uret syndrome has apologized to Michael B.

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Speaker 1: Jordan and Delroy Lindo after his ticks saw him shout

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Speaker 1: a racial slur during their appearance on stage at the Bafters.

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Speaker 1: John Davidson says he left the awards voluntarily as he

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Speaker 1: was mortified for the distress his ticks were causing, but

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Speaker 1: said the show organizers should not have sat him so

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Speaker 1: close to a microphone that could pick up his words.

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Speaker 1: Mister Davidson's ticks, which he has no control over, saw

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Speaker 1: him say the N word while Jordan and Lindo were

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Speaker 1: presenting He also swore several times during the broadcast, which

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Speaker 1: was included in the BBC's broadcast, released two hours after

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Speaker 1: the ceremony began. It was later edited out of the

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Speaker 1: version that remains viewable on the BBC iPlayer. Mister Davidson

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Speaker 1: says he reached out to the studio that made Sinners

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Speaker 1: to apologize to Jordan and Lindo, saying he can't begin

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Speaker 1: to explain how upset and distraught his bin as the

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Speaker 1: impact of Sunday sinks in.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Claire next, unpacking the isis bride situation. We don't

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Speaker 2: want them here, but we can't stop them from being here.

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Speaker 2: That's the retrick we've been hearing the last few weeks

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Speaker 2: when it comes to the potential return to Australia of

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Speaker 2: a group of women known as Isis brides. As a reminder,

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Speaker 2: for years now, a small group of Australian women and

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Speaker 2: their children have been living in the razor wide limbo

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Speaker 2: of camps like our Whole at al Roj in northeastern

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Speaker 2: Most of the women traveled there in the twenty tens

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Speaker 2: to join husbands, brothers or fiancees fighting for Islamic state.

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Speaker 2: Others say they were taken as teenagers or followed family

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Speaker 2: and later married Ayas fighters. Once they arrived, their partners

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Speaker 2: are in many cases dead or imprisoned, while some of

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Speaker 2: their children have known nothing but tense guard towers and

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Speaker 2: winters in the mud. But this month a window appeared

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Speaker 2: to open. Syrian authorities moved to empty parts of the

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Speaker 2: El rojcamp and a convoy of thirty four Australians that's

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Speaker 2: eleven women and twenty three children left under Kurdish escort,

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Speaker 2: hoping to travel towards Damascus and eventually fly home on

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Speaker 2: Australian passports. But not long after they've set off, they

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Speaker 2: were halted. Authorities in Damascus refused to let them through,

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Speaker 2: citing a coordination problem, forcing the group to turn back,

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Speaker 2: some returning to camp to find their tents already taken down. Australia,

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Speaker 2: for its part, says it knew this was coming. The

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister is adamant the government will not help them

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Speaker 2: get here. Anthony Albanzi says he has nothing but contempt

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Speaker 2: for the women who left to support as and repeated

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Speaker 2: this week.

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Speaker 1: Our position is we are not repatriating people and we're

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Speaker 1: not providing assistance.

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Speaker 2: Look, the whole situation has the public divided. Assyrian groups,

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Speaker 2: veterans organizations and opposition politicians have urged the government to

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Speaker 2: go further, calling for tougher laws to block any returns,

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Speaker 2: arguing people who traveled to live in the Caliphate turned

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Speaker 2: their backs on Australia and shouldn't be allowed back. The

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Speaker 2: Coalition is preparing legislation that goes beyond current laws in place,

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Speaker 2: looking to penalize people who are seen to be helping

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Speaker 2: bring these women home. Oppositionly to Angus Taylor sprooking the

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Speaker 2: proposed law in a bid to protect Australian values. A

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Speaker 2: teen year imprisonment for doing so is the kind of

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Speaker 2: messa we need to be putting in place. Meanwhile, New

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Speaker 2: South Wales Premier Chris Mins, who estimates up to a

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Speaker 2: third of the group would settle back in his state,

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Speaker 2: has backed the reintegration of children into the community.

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Speaker 3: I worry about where these children will be in the

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Speaker 3: years ahead, and I worry about what the consequences of

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Speaker 3: doing nothing for them if they did return to Australia

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Speaker 3: would be.

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Speaker 2: But security and human rights experts argue that leaving citizens

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Speaker 2: in Syria isn't a coherent plan either. The longer women

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Speaker 2: and kids stay in places like our Roger, the more

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Speaker 2: they're exposed to violence, radicalization and disease, and the harder

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Speaker 2: it becomes to reintegrate them if they do come home.

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Speaker 2: So how do we balance all of that national security,

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Speaker 2: public and political opinion, and human rights obligations. Associate professor

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Speaker 2: at Flinda's University, doctor Jessica Genauer, is an international relations expert.

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Speaker 2: Jess can you explain to us who these women are

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Speaker 2: and how do they become what we refer to as

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Speaker 2: ISIS brides?

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Speaker 3: As far as we understand, they are Australian citizens, and

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Speaker 3: we think there are about eleven possibly women in Syria

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Speaker 3: at the moment, as far as we understand, went over

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Speaker 3: willingly to marry or to join men who were fighting

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Speaker 3: for the ISIS group at the time, and this is

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Speaker 3: a number of years ago now.

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Speaker 4: Since then, we've seen the.

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Speaker 3: Collapse of the ISIS group in Syria and these women

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Speaker 3: have been left, oftentimes with children because they often had

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Speaker 3: children quite quickly, so they've either had children over there

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Speaker 3: or in some cases took children over there with them,

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Speaker 3: and they're now stuck in a way in these camps

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Speaker 3: in Syria, but sometimes in Kurdish controlled territories, so there's

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Speaker 3: a whole lot of kind of complexities and uncertainties around that,

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Speaker 3: and just to say, generally speaking, the whole issue of

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Speaker 3: who they are, what their stories are, exactly where they've

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Speaker 3: come from is quite shrouded in see and probably a

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Speaker 3: little bit of misinformation. They themselves don't necessarily want the

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Speaker 3: Australian public to know too much about them because they

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Speaker 3: know there would be a fair amount of ill feeling

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Speaker 3: towards them. And also there is just a lack of

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Speaker 3: information about how they might have got there and exactly

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Speaker 3: what they might have been doing there.

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Speaker 2: So that brings us to the last couple of weeks.

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Speaker 2: Why do they now want to come back to Australia.

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Speaker 3: So, as far as I understand, many of these women

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Speaker 3: have been trying to get back for a while, so

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Speaker 3: obviously the conditions there are not great. So they seem

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Speaker 3: to have gone over there willingly. Isis at the time

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Speaker 3: was sort of in its own horrible heyday, if you will,

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Speaker 3: where it actually did have governance control over big chunks

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Speaker 3: of territory. Now Isis has been completely decimated, so their

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Speaker 3: husbands have probably either been killed or you know, they

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Speaker 3: might have gone to jail somewhere, have been taken in

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Speaker 3: by sort of Kourdish forces and taken prisoner.

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Speaker 4: So these women are not living in great conditions there.

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Speaker 3: They're probably thinking back to their life in Australia that

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Speaker 3: they lived before they went over, which probably.

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Speaker 4: Had better material conditions.

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Speaker 3: So it's not that they've only just started wanting to

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Speaker 3: come back, but that this has sort of blown up

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Speaker 3: politically in Australia. So there's a lot of focus being

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Speaker 3: put on it now, and there's a spotlight being put

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Speaker 3: on it in terms of it's actually become in some

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Speaker 3: ways a bit of a domestic political issue where there's

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Speaker 3: now some back and forth between the government and the opposition.

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Speaker 3: It's come to light in a political way, but it's

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Speaker 3: not an issue that's only just become relevant now.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're right, there's lots of discourse, both politically and

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Speaker 2: within public opinion about if we should let these people

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Speaker 2: back into Australia. I mean, they're Australian citizens. Jes They

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Speaker 2: for a lot of them were either born here or

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Speaker 2: lived here, have Australian passports, left the country on those

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Speaker 2: Australian passports potentially, so why can't they come back that's right.

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Speaker 3: So this is sort of the tricky intersection between the

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Speaker 3: legalities and the politics.

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Speaker 4: ISIS, of course.

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Speaker 3: Was a very brutal regime and many things that they

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Speaker 3: did were quite horrifying. So there is a general sentiment

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Speaker 3: in Australia that you know, we don't sort of want

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Speaker 3: to support ISIS or any sort of activities associated with ISIS.

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Speaker 3: On the other hand, in terms of the legalities of it,

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Speaker 3: an Australian citizen is an Australian citizen and they are

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Speaker 3: entitled to the rights that are available to any Australian citizen,

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Speaker 3: So we can't sort of override those because of some

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Speaker 3: kind of political sentiment or political decision. Now, if an

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Speaker 3: Australian citizen is deemed to be a harm to the community,

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Speaker 3: let's say they're in Australia on Australian soil, then of

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Speaker 3: course there are legal instruments to deal with that, and

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Speaker 3: that would be the same in this case. So one

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Speaker 3: thing that you typically can't say is you're not allowed

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Speaker 3: to come back to Australia.

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Speaker 4: That's just not something that there's sort of a clear

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Speaker 4: legal instrument to do that.

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Speaker 3: But once they come back to Australia, if it was

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Speaker 3: deemed by the Australian legal systems that they had been

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Speaker 3: involved in criminal activities or that they were a threat

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Speaker 3: to the Australian public, then of course there would be

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Speaker 3: recourse under Australian domestic law to deal with that.

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Speaker 2: Say, these women find their way back to Australian soil,

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Speaker 2: they bring their children with them, would they go through

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Speaker 2: some sort of like deprogramming cost assimilate back into Australian

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Speaker 2: life if they even get to that stage of crossing

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Speaker 2: the border.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: So it depends again on how much of this comes

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Speaker 3: under the political domain and how much comes under the

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Speaker 3: legal domain. And there are sort of different avenues there

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Speaker 3: depending on which one of those domains we're dealing with.

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Speaker 3: So I think within the sort of more political domain,

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Speaker 3: now that's become such a kind of hot issue, the

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Speaker 3: government would try to have some kind of program also,

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Speaker 3: because these women could be suspected of having engaged in

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Speaker 3: criminal activity, so there certainly could be recourse there to

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Speaker 3: at least interview them, determine whether or not there are

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Speaker 3: a risk to the community, or try to in some

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Speaker 3: ways maybe ensure a sort of smoother transition back into

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Speaker 3: Australian society that wouldn't pose a.

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Speaker 4: Risk or a threat.

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Speaker 3: But I guess there are a couple of other things.

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Speaker 3: So one is if these women had have been actually

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Speaker 3: criminally convicted whilst they were overseas, then there could be

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Speaker 3: sort of different kind of parameters around whether or not

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Speaker 3: they could come back despite being Australian citizens. But at

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Speaker 3: this stage, there isn't any sort of you know, not

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Speaker 3: under any kind of Kurdish governance regime or under the

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Speaker 3: new Syrian regime, there hasn't been any sort of formal

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Speaker 3: investigation into was there actually criminal activity. And then I

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Speaker 3: guess the other mechanism available to the Australian government is

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Speaker 3: around this thing called a temporary exclusion order, which means

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Speaker 3: that you can sort of temporarily disallow an Australian citizen

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Speaker 3: from entering the country because you do deem that they

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Speaker 3: pose a risk to the Australian domestic population. But that

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Speaker 3: would only ever be short term, would just sort of

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Speaker 3: move this further down or postpone the issue. But eventually

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Speaker 3: these women, if they you know, remain Australian citizens, which

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Speaker 3: seems likely, probably could eventually find a way back to Australia.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting and it's hard to determine the motives of

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Speaker 2: these people who are attempting to return to Australia. On

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Speaker 2: one end, you have certain factions in political and public

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Speaker 2: debate who say that they are terrorists, they're a danger

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Speaker 2: to society. They can't settle back here in Australia. It

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Speaker 2: would be too risky to our domestic population. On the

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Speaker 2: other hand, we've seen some reporting that these women, or

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Speaker 2: at least some of them, were not necessarily willing participants

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Speaker 2: in becoming an Isis bride, that they were either captured

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Speaker 2: or forced into it. So surely for those women, if

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Speaker 2: that is the case, they should be not only welcomed

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Speaker 2: but embraced back and in the safety of their own country.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's where we have to really look

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Speaker 3: at legal mechanisms rather than political sentiments. So political sentiment,

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Speaker 3: you know, it can be it can sort of go

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Speaker 3: from one end of the spectrum to the other within

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Speaker 3: a short space of time, depending on kind of the

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Speaker 3: emotional sentiment amongst the population. And I think I think

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Speaker 3: that in these kind of cases it would be risky

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Speaker 3: to say okay, because there's a strong societal sentiment that

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Speaker 3: would condemn these women for the choices that they made.

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Speaker 3: That therefore we override the kind of legal mechanisms around

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Speaker 3: your rights as a citizen and we say, okay, the

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Speaker 3: government's going to make this sort of executive decision, which then,

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Speaker 3: of course that could be challenged, but they're going to

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Speaker 3: make this decision that the women are not entitled to

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Speaker 3: come back. But then we have to think about, well,

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Speaker 3: what kind of precedent does that set and how might

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Speaker 3: that be used in future in other situations. So one

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Speaker 3: situation we might agree, one we might not. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's where it's really important in terms of the

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Speaker 3: robustness of our Australian democracy, that we look at the

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Speaker 3: legalities of the situation and we say, okay, well, what

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Speaker 3: are the legal rights entitled to Australian citizens. Yes, if

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Speaker 3: someone poses a risk to the community, like any other citizen,

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Speaker 3: then that would be dealt with through the mechanisms of

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Speaker 3: the law. So I would say the same in this case.

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Speaker 3: It's not so much about do we think maybe sort

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Speaker 3: of in a moral sense that you know, was a

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Speaker 3: good decision or a bad decision, or whether or not

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Speaker 3: they should be able to come back or shouldn't be

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Speaker 3: able to come back? Is like, what does the law

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Speaker 3: actually say around being an Australian citizen? And then they

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Speaker 3: could be dealt with in the way that anyone else

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Speaker 3: would be dealt with who is an Australian citizen. And

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Speaker 3: if actually they have let's say, reformed and want to

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Speaker 3: be a positive, contributing part of Australian society, you know,

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Speaker 3: no longer kind of supporting some of the more brutal

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Speaker 3: aspects of that Isis regime, then of course as an

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Speaker 3: Australian citizen they should be entitled to live in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Jess, is there any precedent here? Have we seen in

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Speaker 2: the past other people or groups in similar situations try

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Speaker 2: to return to Australia.

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Speaker 3: Not that I'm aware of. I mean, I know that

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Speaker 3: under the Scott Morrison regime. Interestingly, there were some so

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Speaker 3: called ISIS orphans that would return to Australia. So these

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Speaker 3: were children who had been born to Australian citizens but

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Speaker 3: whose parents had both died and they were returned to Australia.

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Speaker 3: And that was considered a lot less sort of politically

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Speaker 3: controversial within the Australian context because essentially their children so

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Speaker 3: you can't sort of hold them responsible in.

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Speaker 4: The same way.

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Speaker 3: But in terms of isis fighters or things of a

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Speaker 3: more similar nature, I'm not aware of a clear precedent,

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Speaker 3: which is probably also why there's so much political attention

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Speaker 3: on this case, because it would potentially set a precedent

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Speaker 3: for what might happen in future.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 2: us today. The Quickie is produced by me Taylor Strano,

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Speaker 2: Laria Brophy, and Clare Murphy, with audio production by lou

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Speaker 2: Hill MoMA.

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Speaker 1: MEA acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

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Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on