WEBVTT - Sally Hepworth No Longer Believes in Marriage 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:13.085 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.885 --> 0:00:16.845 Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:19.685 that this podcast is recorded on. I have the scars, 0:00:19.725 --> 0:00:21.885 and I do feel like I lost a layer of skin. 0:00:22.125 --> 0:00:27.765 You know, everything was raw, everything I felt things is 0:00:27.805 --> 0:00:32.285 more beautiful and sadder. You know, is marriage good for women? 0:00:33.045 --> 0:00:34.525 I've thought about that a lot. 0:00:42.925 --> 0:00:45.805 You know, when someone seems like they've got it all 0:00:45.845 --> 0:00:52.085 together hmmm. For instance, best selling author Gorgeous, Family, thriving career, 0:00:52.325 --> 0:00:56.805 beautiful to boot, and then you find out they've been 0:00:56.925 --> 0:01:03.245 quietly rebuilding their life from scratch. Well, that is Sally Hepworth. 0:01:04.205 --> 0:01:06.805 She sold millions of books around the world. She's written 0:01:06.805 --> 0:01:11.285 a best seller every year since twenty fifteen. But what 0:01:11.365 --> 0:01:14.325 you might not know is that over the last couple 0:01:14.365 --> 0:01:20.925 of years, Sally Hepworth's life completely imploded. Today we talk 0:01:20.965 --> 0:01:26.165 about that, divorce, grief, the shit box. Yes, he'll find 0:01:26.205 --> 0:01:30.405 out what that is. We talk about female friendship and 0:01:30.925 --> 0:01:36.005 falling in love again when you swore you wouldn't. This 0:01:36.045 --> 0:01:38.605 is a conversation about what it means to let go 0:01:38.725 --> 0:01:42.365 of the life you thought you wanted and build a 0:01:42.445 --> 0:01:48.205 new life that actually fits. Sally hepworth you of the 0:01:48.325 --> 0:01:52.525 lemon water, the cleansing lemon water. Welcome to no filter, 0:01:52.885 --> 0:01:56.365 thank you, and here we are both early in the morning. 0:01:56.605 --> 0:01:59.765 After thinking that it was ten am instead of nine. 0:01:59.925 --> 0:02:02.565 Both of us thought that, what a miracle that we made. 0:02:02.805 --> 0:02:06.845 And here we are. But what okay, you have shared 0:02:07.205 --> 0:02:13.325 so much of yourself, but kind of in disguise. I 0:02:13.365 --> 0:02:21.405 think through your characters, which have resonated with millions, literally 0:02:21.445 --> 0:02:26.965 millions of people, and you have had this is so remarkable, 0:02:27.005 --> 0:02:29.765 a best seller every year since twenty fifteen. So that's 0:02:29.765 --> 0:02:32.005 a lot. It's a lot. 0:02:32.925 --> 0:02:35.765 Yeah, it sounds like a lot when it's going to 0:02:35.805 --> 0:02:38.365 be the tenth this year. In a couple of months, 0:02:39.525 --> 0:02:44.045 my book will be care right, and yeah, it it 0:02:44.085 --> 0:02:48.525 feels amazing to think back to when I started writing 0:02:48.565 --> 0:02:50.685 in two thousand and nine, when I was pregnant with. 0:02:50.605 --> 0:02:51.405 My first child. 0:02:51.565 --> 0:02:55.485 Yeah, all I wanted was to get a novel published and. 0:02:55.405 --> 0:02:57.405 Then oh, that's a dream. 0:02:57.885 --> 0:03:00.205 Yeah, and then the gold post kept moving. Then I 0:03:00.245 --> 0:03:02.805 wanted to make a career out of being an author, 0:03:02.845 --> 0:03:04.885 and then I wanted to become a best seller. You know, 0:03:04.885 --> 0:03:07.445 some people say they didn't dream of that, but I did. 0:03:07.725 --> 0:03:09.565 I had big dreams. 0:03:09.485 --> 0:03:12.765 And when like, how long had you had those dreams? 0:03:13.285 --> 0:03:17.205 Well, I suppose as soon as I got my foot 0:03:17.205 --> 0:03:18.885 in the door and I started to get published. 0:03:19.085 --> 0:03:20.565 You know what, might not dream big. 0:03:20.605 --> 0:03:22.405 I mean, I didn't know that I was going to 0:03:22.445 --> 0:03:24.965 make it, But you have to kind of aim for something. 0:03:25.085 --> 0:03:27.405 I do always. I do like to say to friends, 0:03:28.125 --> 0:03:32.485 miracles happen. There's no reason that it can't be the 0:03:32.525 --> 0:03:38.285 miracle for you. But the miracle is often hard work. Yeah, 0:03:38.445 --> 0:03:39.605 that's the miracle. 0:03:40.005 --> 0:03:43.165 Yeah, And I guess to write a novel, you're doing 0:03:43.205 --> 0:03:45.765 the hard work, right, like everyone who's written one. To 0:03:45.805 --> 0:03:47.885 get in the game, you have to do the hard work. 0:03:48.205 --> 0:03:50.325 And then there's the magic of you know, are your 0:03:50.325 --> 0:03:52.525 books going to resonate? Are people going to buy them? 0:03:52.925 --> 0:03:55.485 Are they going to in some cases hit at the 0:03:55.565 --> 0:03:59.805 right time that that's going to become popular. Sometimes that 0:03:59.885 --> 0:04:02.925 retroactively happens these days, and books take off years after 0:04:02.965 --> 0:04:07.205 they've come out. I don't know why, but I really 0:04:07.205 --> 0:04:12.125 do feel so fortunate to be while also allowing that, 0:04:12.205 --> 0:04:14.205 you know, I've done the work, and I do think 0:04:14.325 --> 0:04:17.925 that I'm past imposter syndrome. I think I'm good at 0:04:17.925 --> 0:04:19.685 it now. I really enjoy it. 0:04:19.725 --> 0:04:23.405 Oh, what a good feeling. Yeah, when did that come? 0:04:23.965 --> 0:04:30.085 Was it as a result of outside affirmation or is 0:04:30.085 --> 0:04:33.205 it something that comes from inside? Great question. 0:04:34.725 --> 0:04:38.165 I suspect probably started to come after a little bit 0:04:38.165 --> 0:04:39.245 of outside affirmation. 0:04:39.605 --> 0:04:40.325 That does help. 0:04:40.525 --> 0:04:42.765 Yeah, I would like to say it was internal. I 0:04:42.805 --> 0:04:45.325 think by the time I wrote my fifth book, I 0:04:45.365 --> 0:04:47.485 remember that was The Mother in Law was the book 0:04:47.485 --> 0:04:52.445 that you know, broke out, as they say, and then 0:04:52.485 --> 0:04:55.205 each book since then has kind of built on it. 0:04:55.285 --> 0:04:59.485 And sometime between then and now, I just started to 0:04:59.565 --> 0:05:03.405 think to myself, when you know, I've written a couple 0:05:03.445 --> 0:05:07.365 of short stories recently, and I've never written a short story. 0:05:07.365 --> 0:05:10.045 I mean, before I wrote the first one, I remember 0:05:10.285 --> 0:05:14.565 Amazon approaching me to write it and I said, yeah, okay, 0:05:14.565 --> 0:05:16.085 I'll do it. And then I hung up and I 0:05:16.085 --> 0:05:19.685 immediately googled how to write a short story because I thought, yeah, 0:05:19.685 --> 0:05:20.165 I can do it. 0:05:20.205 --> 0:05:21.245 Well, of course I can do it. 0:05:21.565 --> 0:05:24.685 And that snuck up on me because I didn't always 0:05:24.725 --> 0:05:25.325 feel that way. 0:05:25.365 --> 0:05:28.445 Of Course, The Mother in Law was a really interesting 0:05:28.485 --> 0:05:32.485 one because it showed that you have a capacity, which 0:05:32.525 --> 0:05:35.125 I think you always have to do as a writer. 0:05:36.445 --> 0:05:41.605 It showed you have a real capacity to see the 0:05:41.645 --> 0:05:45.285 other side of someone, and you do that with all 0:05:45.325 --> 0:05:49.125 of your characters obviously, but that was a really seminal 0:05:49.165 --> 0:05:54.285 one because I think it's so hot, Yeah, isn't it sticky? 0:05:54.405 --> 0:05:58.125 A mother in law? And yet you always were you're 0:05:58.325 --> 0:06:02.805 handling of the concept, and even in your conversations around it, 0:06:03.245 --> 0:06:06.685 were very understanding of what it means to be a 0:06:06.765 --> 0:06:07.445 mother in law. 0:06:08.005 --> 0:06:10.925 I hope so that It's always been the interesting part 0:06:10.925 --> 0:06:16.005 of writing for me is there are books, I assume 0:06:16.245 --> 0:06:19.885 that have been written about awful mothers in law, and 0:06:20.125 --> 0:06:24.525 movies and monsters in law and jokes and jokes, and 0:06:24.565 --> 0:06:27.285 so what was interesting to me about tackling it was to, 0:06:28.325 --> 0:06:31.485 you know, to reverse engineer or to look at the 0:06:31.525 --> 0:06:35.285 other side and what if you know mothers in law 0:06:35.325 --> 0:06:37.725 aren't awful because they're not. I mean, my mum is 0:06:37.765 --> 0:06:40.565 a mother in law and she's beautiful. I adore her. 0:06:41.085 --> 0:06:44.085 I also know that she irritates my sisters a lot sometimes. 0:06:44.925 --> 0:06:49.325 Well, yes, there's always that that kind of tension, there's 0:06:49.365 --> 0:06:52.765 that rab A point that you've made is that a 0:06:52.885 --> 0:06:56.205 mother in law is in a unique position because she 0:06:56.405 --> 0:07:02.125 loves the same man more woman, daughter or son, but 0:07:02.285 --> 0:07:05.325 has no say in it the people that are trust together. 0:07:06.085 --> 0:07:09.965 But I'm curious, particularly about your understanding of human nature, 0:07:09.965 --> 0:07:15.645 which I believe to be immense well, just partly through 0:07:15.685 --> 0:07:20.725 your research on every character and situation, and you have 0:07:20.925 --> 0:07:28.085 had your characters often have confronted every type of rupture. 0:07:29.485 --> 0:07:29.765 You know. 0:07:30.005 --> 0:07:33.805 And now this is what I'm curious about, because you've 0:07:33.885 --> 0:07:38.365 encountered that own rupture yourself, and you've changed your life 0:07:38.445 --> 0:07:41.845 drastically since the last time you were on no filter 0:07:41.925 --> 0:07:45.445 with me, the last two times you're on. How has 0:07:45.565 --> 0:07:47.805 that been. You're now divorced. 0:07:48.405 --> 0:07:52.325 Yeah, I mean, look, all of these experiences, they become 0:07:52.325 --> 0:07:55.325 a part of you, and so they leak out onto 0:07:55.325 --> 0:07:59.965 the page, I think. But I will say that every 0:08:00.165 --> 0:08:01.805 you know, my books in a way have followed the 0:08:01.845 --> 0:08:05.125 trajectory of things that I've gone through, motherhood, you know, 0:08:05.845 --> 0:08:08.605 even not being able to get pregnant and all of 0:08:08.605 --> 0:08:12.845 those things. Now with the divorce, I think that's been 0:08:12.885 --> 0:08:17.325 the most significant thing that's happened to me. I mean, 0:08:17.405 --> 0:08:20.725 and I say this acknowledging that this makes me very lucky, 0:08:20.765 --> 0:08:23.805 but it's the most significant thing that's happened to me 0:08:23.845 --> 0:08:27.285 in my life. The most difficult thing yeah, and it's 0:08:27.445 --> 0:08:31.125 just coming up to two years ago. Sorry, it's just 0:08:31.165 --> 0:08:35.325 gone over two years since we separated, and I was 0:08:35.365 --> 0:08:37.565 thinking about it, knowing that we were going to talk 0:08:37.605 --> 0:08:41.805 about it today, and I was thinking, am I, How am. 0:08:41.685 --> 0:08:42.405 I about that? 0:08:42.485 --> 0:08:42.565 Like? 0:08:42.765 --> 0:08:46.485 Am I over it? Am I? And I'm not. 0:08:47.125 --> 0:08:50.525 I mean, it's I wonder if it'll be one of 0:08:50.525 --> 0:08:54.885 those things like the grief of death, that it changes 0:08:55.885 --> 0:08:59.205 but it's always with you. Yeah, I wonder. 0:08:59.365 --> 0:09:01.085 I mean, I don't know. 0:09:01.285 --> 0:09:04.205 And as you say, I'm so curious about people. I'm 0:09:04.245 --> 0:09:08.605 curious about you know, the last two years marriage, you know, 0:09:08.645 --> 0:09:12.205 I've been looking around at marriages and thinking what makes 0:09:12.205 --> 0:09:15.485 a marriage work, what makes them fail? What makes people 0:09:15.485 --> 0:09:20.045 so angry after they get divorced, what makes people nasty? 0:09:20.405 --> 0:09:23.205 What makes a good divorce? 0:09:23.605 --> 0:09:26.645 And how is your divorce? By the way, look a 0:09:26.685 --> 0:09:29.205 little bit of everything, I guess along the way, but 0:09:29.845 --> 0:09:32.965 if overall, yeah, look what you know. 0:09:33.045 --> 0:09:37.125 The thing that I have learned from this is that 0:09:38.045 --> 0:09:41.325 whenever someone would get divorced in my life, prior to 0:09:41.805 --> 0:09:45.285 it being me, I used to want to know what happened. 0:09:45.725 --> 0:09:49.685 And when I asked that question, I expected the answer 0:09:49.765 --> 0:09:55.365 to be a sentence or two sentences and something that 0:09:55.445 --> 0:09:58.365 attributed blame to one person. There was a victim and 0:09:58.405 --> 0:10:02.365 a perpetrator. You know, I wanted to hear he had 0:10:02.405 --> 0:10:06.485 an affair or she was crazy, which is cut. Yes, 0:10:06.525 --> 0:10:09.925 and so you immediately know that's what happened, and and 0:10:09.925 --> 0:10:12.405 what I've discovered since then, and in my own case 0:10:12.445 --> 0:10:15.005 this is true. I mean, you might be able to, 0:10:15.165 --> 0:10:17.725 for the sake of conversation, boil it down to one 0:10:17.765 --> 0:10:21.165 or two things, but ultimately you could write a book. 0:10:21.205 --> 0:10:22.765 It's not one or two sentences. 0:10:23.045 --> 0:10:25.885 There's nothing. You could write a book, and maybe I will. 0:10:26.525 --> 0:10:29.885 Well it is. It is fascinating, and because it's such 0:10:29.925 --> 0:10:35.445 a common experience and for it to be so traumatic, yes, 0:10:36.605 --> 0:10:42.525 and so common, and yet not really, I don't think 0:10:42.565 --> 0:10:47.685 it's really given the full weight that it deserves, the 0:10:47.765 --> 0:10:50.685 significance in a person's life. 0:10:51.125 --> 0:10:54.925 I agree strongly, and in fact, look, I don't know 0:10:55.565 --> 0:10:58.205 if my experience is true of everyone, and of course 0:10:58.245 --> 0:11:01.125 it's not. Everyone has a different experiences. 0:11:01.205 --> 0:11:02.165 But I was so. 0:11:03.885 --> 0:11:09.725 Knocked to my ass from it, and even my if 0:11:09.765 --> 0:11:12.005 I heard someone was divorced before it happened to me, 0:11:12.045 --> 0:11:14.365 I would have said, oh, that's a shame. It certainly 0:11:14.485 --> 0:11:17.685 wasn't on par with you know, other terrible things that 0:11:17.725 --> 0:11:20.365 happened to people, like a disease, like an it's. 0:11:20.245 --> 0:11:23.285 A terrible thing, and it is kind of a death. Yeah, 0:11:23.765 --> 0:11:26.645 it's a death of I mean all those things that 0:11:26.765 --> 0:11:29.205 lead you to get married in the first place. Yes, 0:11:29.405 --> 0:11:33.645 the hope, the love, the starry eyed whatever it was, 0:11:34.085 --> 0:11:37.045 it's the antithesis of that. So it is in some 0:11:37.085 --> 0:11:38.685 ways that it is. 0:11:38.925 --> 0:11:41.165 And on top of all that, I mean, that is 0:11:41.205 --> 0:11:42.805 the big part. And then on top of that there's 0:11:42.885 --> 0:11:47.925 the the life up people. You know that there's worries 0:11:47.965 --> 0:11:52.685 about financial worries, there's emotional concerns for the children, children, 0:11:52.885 --> 0:11:57.365 there's you know, I mean that part is so hard 0:11:57.445 --> 0:12:00.085 that you're going through something so difficult, and yet you 0:12:00.125 --> 0:12:02.685 have to do the best parenting of your life, you know, 0:12:02.805 --> 0:12:07.125 in order to hopefully get your children. 0:12:07.445 --> 0:12:09.725 Well, how do you do that because like you've got 0:12:09.725 --> 0:12:13.045 three children, you've got two teenagers and an eight year old? 0:12:13.125 --> 0:12:16.845 I do I mean people like to say that children 0:12:17.005 --> 0:12:20.805 are resilient. I think that underestimates often the impact of 0:12:20.965 --> 0:12:24.645 major emotional shifts for children. I think we like to 0:12:24.685 --> 0:12:27.245 say they're resilient because it makes it easier for us 0:12:27.325 --> 0:12:29.685 to kind of push through what we have to push 0:12:29.725 --> 0:12:32.685 through with. I don't even think that they're resilient. What 0:12:32.725 --> 0:12:36.845 they are is adaptable and good at hiding stuff that 0:12:36.925 --> 0:12:40.925 they might be feeling because they're all antena, yes. 0:12:40.845 --> 0:12:43.365 Or showing it in different way. I mean my daughter, 0:12:43.565 --> 0:12:45.885 my youngest was six at the time, and so I 0:12:45.965 --> 0:12:48.805 saw her dealing with it in ways that were not 0:12:49.525 --> 0:12:53.565 you know, she wasn't expressing it directly, but she was 0:12:53.605 --> 0:12:57.525 having a lot of trouble with you, nightmares and just 0:12:57.685 --> 0:13:01.925 behavioral stuff, whereas my old to and have my older too, 0:13:01.925 --> 0:13:05.005 when you're a divergent and so that had its own 0:13:05.365 --> 0:13:07.005 host of things. 0:13:07.645 --> 0:13:11.885 Did they process it differently? Yea, yeah, how could you like? 0:13:11.965 --> 0:13:12.605 In what way? 0:13:12.805 --> 0:13:14.605 Well, even between the two of them, my son and 0:13:14.645 --> 0:13:17.965 my daughter, they prosed it, sessed it differently. My son 0:13:18.805 --> 0:13:21.725 didn't talk about it at all. In fact, it's funny 0:13:21.725 --> 0:13:25.965 when we told him, we said, have you got any questions? 0:13:25.965 --> 0:13:27.885 And we told him alone just because of the world, 0:13:28.445 --> 0:13:32.085 and we told the girls separately, and we went through 0:13:32.125 --> 0:13:34.245 it and he said, if you got any questions, and 0:13:34.245 --> 0:13:36.325 he said, where will the dog be living? 0:13:36.645 --> 0:13:41.965 Actually a very good question, yes, And so where does 0:13:42.005 --> 0:13:42.725 the dog we live. 0:13:43.285 --> 0:13:45.765 We have a divorced dog who shared We share custody, 0:13:45.805 --> 0:13:48.005 so the dog goes with the kids, which was something 0:13:48.045 --> 0:13:52.805 that they wanted and it has worked really well. The 0:13:53.045 --> 0:13:55.325 other thing that worked well in the early days is 0:13:55.365 --> 0:13:57.685 that we did birds nest parenting. 0:13:58.845 --> 0:14:03.125 The Swedish is that the Swedish model Danish something everything 0:14:03.165 --> 0:14:05.645 good comes from me. 0:14:09.725 --> 0:14:11.685 So because we had the family home, as a lot 0:14:11.685 --> 0:14:13.845 of people do, it was going to take time to sell. 0:14:14.365 --> 0:14:18.045 So we got a little apartment not far away, and 0:14:18.125 --> 0:14:20.645 we would do week on and week off. One of 0:14:20.725 --> 0:14:23.645 us would would leave and go to the apartment and 0:14:23.685 --> 0:14:24.925 the other one would stay in. 0:14:24.925 --> 0:14:27.085 The house with So the idea is that children are 0:14:27.085 --> 0:14:28.245 not they stay routed. 0:14:28.605 --> 0:14:32.205 Yeah, right, and that you know, looking back, that was 0:14:32.765 --> 0:14:36.365 horrible for us or horrible for me. It was amazing 0:14:36.365 --> 0:14:38.525 for the kids and I would do it again for 0:14:38.605 --> 0:14:39.085 the kids. 0:14:39.165 --> 0:14:40.765 And what why was that horrible for you? 0:14:41.485 --> 0:14:48.325 Like just the the packing up of your life every Friday. 0:14:48.085 --> 0:14:51.005 Which is normally what the kids have to do. Yes, 0:14:51.045 --> 0:14:52.285 and that's what I was going to say. 0:14:52.325 --> 0:14:56.325 It really gave me such and that's one of the 0:14:56.325 --> 0:14:58.645 best things from it, such an understanding of what they 0:14:58.725 --> 0:15:01.245 have to go through and we delayed that by a year. 0:15:01.325 --> 0:15:02.445 By by us. 0:15:02.325 --> 0:15:05.685 Doing it, it's made me so much more sympathetic, so 0:15:05.805 --> 0:15:09.485 much more likely to you know, if they've forgotten their something, 0:15:09.645 --> 0:15:11.885 I will be in the car, you know, driving it. 0:15:11.765 --> 0:15:14.765 Off to school, which you know how it feels. Yeah, Hey, 0:15:14.805 --> 0:15:17.405 who was it harder for? Do you think in that 0:15:17.925 --> 0:15:22.405 nesting bird nesting time? Who was more adaptable with that? 0:15:22.605 --> 0:15:25.765 Obviously it was hard for you. How was Christian your 0:15:25.805 --> 0:15:26.565 husband with it? 0:15:26.685 --> 0:15:31.885 I also also I think not great. It's a strange 0:15:31.885 --> 0:15:33.805 thing as well, because the apartment that we had was 0:15:33.885 --> 0:15:36.205 very much like an airbnb. It didn't feel like home. 0:15:36.405 --> 0:15:39.045 No, and because it didn't really belong to either of 0:15:39.085 --> 0:15:40.365 you no, yes. 0:15:40.525 --> 0:15:43.325 And it's also I have to say, it's a privilege 0:15:43.365 --> 0:15:45.445 to be able to afford to have it, and it 0:15:45.485 --> 0:15:48.205 was a small apartment, but not everyone has the ability. 0:15:47.845 --> 0:15:50.565 To know that's right to do. That's the other thing 0:15:50.565 --> 0:15:52.965 about divorce. Divorce is expenses. 0:15:52.525 --> 0:15:56.965 Expensive, and there's an uncertain period which is just really difficult, 0:15:57.525 --> 0:16:03.325 and sharing space with that person is so difficult and 0:16:04.285 --> 0:16:05.805 I found that really really hard. 0:16:06.405 --> 0:16:09.245 It's almost like in a way that when you navigate 0:16:09.485 --> 0:16:13.045 the divorce with someone and there are children involved, so 0:16:13.405 --> 0:16:17.125 you have to be very mindful of that that in 0:16:17.165 --> 0:16:22.765 a way, you have to work together so intensely. Do 0:16:22.885 --> 0:16:25.645 you at some point think why are we getting divorced 0:16:25.885 --> 0:16:27.925 if we can actually manage a divorce. 0:16:29.485 --> 0:16:33.525 Look, I think the thing that happened with us, which 0:16:33.565 --> 0:16:37.085 I see happening with so many people, is that you start. 0:16:37.125 --> 0:16:42.245 I started off with a desire to do everything perfectly. 0:16:42.365 --> 0:16:44.525 You know, this thing of okay, this our life's going 0:16:44.525 --> 0:16:47.085 to change, the children's life is going to change. I 0:16:47.165 --> 0:16:52.125 read all the books you know on children, and I 0:16:52.205 --> 0:16:56.765 quickly realized that that wasn't going to work. That we 0:16:56.765 --> 0:16:59.165 weren't going to be working together like that Christian and 0:16:59.245 --> 0:17:04.085 I and that took some adjusting. And it's actually the 0:17:04.085 --> 0:17:06.965 thing that when I look back, I wish I had 0:17:07.005 --> 0:17:11.405 realized earlier that we're not married anymore, and so we 0:17:11.445 --> 0:17:13.805 don't necessarily we're not going to be on the same 0:17:13.845 --> 0:17:18.685 page always in an ideal world, co parenting is wonderful. 0:17:19.365 --> 0:17:22.365 I now have a lot of divorced friend I've sought 0:17:22.365 --> 0:17:25.405 out divorced people because I'm so traumatized. 0:17:25.445 --> 0:17:26.165 I've got a. 0:17:26.125 --> 0:17:30.685 Divorced group of women that we call ourselves the golden girls, and. 0:17:32.205 --> 0:17:33.365 We share information. 0:17:33.565 --> 0:17:36.085 And in every case, even when they've come to the 0:17:36.125 --> 0:17:39.965 other side and now can co parent, there's a part 0:17:40.005 --> 0:17:42.445 in the middle that we call the mean part. And 0:17:42.485 --> 0:17:44.685 it helped me to call it that because it was 0:17:44.725 --> 0:17:47.845 a part and something that had a beginning and an 0:17:47.965 --> 0:17:51.405 end and it wasn't personal, and it wasn't you know. 0:17:51.805 --> 0:17:53.085 And I think every divorce has. 0:17:53.005 --> 0:17:55.885 A mean part. I agree, and with girlfriends in mine 0:17:55.965 --> 0:17:59.125 even I ended a relationship after nine years and we 0:17:59.125 --> 0:18:05.245 weren't married, but we were embedded. And particularly in my experience, 0:18:06.085 --> 0:18:09.005 the mean part often comes around money, yep. And it 0:18:09.045 --> 0:18:12.165 does matter if you're breaking up with the nicest guy 0:18:12.205 --> 0:18:16.725 in the world. There's something about money suddenly that really 0:18:16.925 --> 0:18:17.725 brings out that. 0:18:18.845 --> 0:18:20.845 But it's not even this is my thing because I 0:18:20.885 --> 0:18:24.245 think about these things a lot. I think it is security, 0:18:24.805 --> 0:18:27.605 you know, at which money represents a lot of security. 0:18:27.965 --> 0:18:31.565 I think it's freedom, yeah, and fear you know, you 0:18:31.685 --> 0:18:34.885 don't know, and you go from being even if you 0:18:34.965 --> 0:18:38.645 have plenty of money, you're suddenly half You've got half 0:18:38.645 --> 0:18:41.685 as much or whatever that looks like. And that's scary. 0:18:41.925 --> 0:18:44.045 And if you're you know, I'm in my mid forties, 0:18:44.485 --> 0:18:49.125 Christians fifty and so that is a very real fear 0:18:49.165 --> 0:18:51.565 all of a sudden, you know, Am I prepared for 0:18:51.885 --> 0:18:52.885 retirement or am I? 0:18:53.165 --> 0:18:53.365 Yeah? 0:18:53.525 --> 0:18:55.805 You know, And I was in the really lucky position 0:18:55.845 --> 0:18:58.565 that I've never stepped out of work. I earn a 0:18:58.605 --> 0:18:59.565 good income. 0:19:00.365 --> 0:19:04.125 Best seller every year since twenty fifteen, which you know, 0:19:04.165 --> 0:19:05.205 I mean that sounds wonderful. 0:19:05.245 --> 0:19:07.565 It's still you know, you look at the numbers and 0:19:07.645 --> 0:19:12.885 I've got three kid course, and you go. But I definitely, 0:19:13.925 --> 0:19:18.965 I definitely was happy to you know, to keep things nice. 0:19:19.005 --> 0:19:22.405 I was like, yep, you know, I wasn't fighting. But 0:19:22.445 --> 0:19:26.005 I also think that you can do everything right and 0:19:26.045 --> 0:19:27.325 it can still be hard. 0:19:27.165 --> 0:19:30.285 Of course, and maybe it has to be. Maybe it 0:19:30.325 --> 0:19:37.325 does maybe to you know, cleave apart what God put together, 0:19:38.045 --> 0:19:40.045 do you know what I mean? Or whatever the saying is, 0:19:40.565 --> 0:19:44.045 maybe it has to have that component to it. 0:19:44.565 --> 0:19:46.765 Look, I mean, I'm sure there are people who've got 0:19:46.805 --> 0:19:50.205 some whimsical, wonderful divorce, but then you know, why are 0:19:50.205 --> 0:19:51.165 they getting divorced? 0:19:51.445 --> 0:19:54.725 Are there any in your extended group of girlfriends? 0:19:54.885 --> 0:19:57.765 Now there's a few, you know, sort of five years 0:19:57.805 --> 0:20:00.845 plus down the track that now are working well together. 0:20:01.045 --> 0:20:01.325 Right. 0:20:01.885 --> 0:20:04.965 I had to and look, I actually this was the 0:20:04.965 --> 0:20:07.205 best thing I ever did. I had to accept that 0:20:07.805 --> 0:20:09.685 I was in charge of what happened in my house 0:20:10.285 --> 0:20:12.805 and Christian was in charge of what happened in his house. 0:20:13.405 --> 0:20:18.005 And it's the most unnatural thing when you are a parent, 0:20:18.765 --> 0:20:20.805 even to you know, not have your kids with you 0:20:20.885 --> 0:20:25.605 half the time, but to let go of things that 0:20:27.165 --> 0:20:29.245 are really important in your life, like this is what 0:20:29.365 --> 0:20:31.285 time they go to bed. Things you're used to having 0:20:31.325 --> 0:20:34.365 control over this, This is what they eat, this is 0:20:34.445 --> 0:20:38.125 they shower. There are so many things that you have 0:20:38.245 --> 0:20:42.285 to that kind of stuff, bedtime, showering, whatever. I felt 0:20:42.325 --> 0:20:46.445 so much better when I stopped, and you know, you 0:20:46.525 --> 0:20:49.925 keep it to the important things, and there weren't any 0:20:49.965 --> 0:20:52.805 of those, you know, like they were alive and looked 0:20:52.845 --> 0:20:54.605 after well by their dad. 0:20:54.805 --> 0:20:58.685 And suddenly I unclenched, you know. 0:20:58.925 --> 0:21:03.805 And that too, is a really important thing to sort 0:21:03.805 --> 0:21:05.965 of letting go of the marriage that you do kind 0:21:05.965 --> 0:21:09.085 of have to understand that when you're married you work 0:21:09.125 --> 0:21:13.605 together as a team. Of course you should, and now 0:21:13.645 --> 0:21:16.245 I think we're much better at teamwork. But that was 0:21:16.245 --> 0:21:18.525 a bit of a process too, of just going well, 0:21:19.405 --> 0:21:23.245 you know, when not controlling, you know, we can't control 0:21:23.285 --> 0:21:26.765 each other anymore. Maybe I look a lot too it 0:21:26.965 --> 0:21:30.565 my part. You know, I don't like that idea that 0:21:32.725 --> 0:21:37.085 you know, he's a narcissist, She's crazy. Everyone thinks their 0:21:37.205 --> 0:21:39.405 X is crazy or a narcissist. I don't think that. 0:21:40.005 --> 0:21:44.445 I see he does. He thinks I'm crazy. I think 0:21:44.485 --> 0:21:49.965 that I think that both of us made mistakes, and 0:21:51.245 --> 0:21:53.645 especially in the early days, I was much more interested 0:21:53.685 --> 0:21:57.125 in finding out what I what my part was, because 0:21:57.365 --> 0:21:59.765 that's the only part I comes back to control. I 0:21:59.805 --> 0:22:03.525 can't control why he's doing stuff that I don't agree 0:22:03.565 --> 0:22:07.005 with or why, and it's not my business anymore, only 0:22:07.045 --> 0:22:09.605 in so far as it affects my children. My role 0:22:09.685 --> 0:22:14.445 is to look at me, to heal and to hopefully 0:22:14.485 --> 0:22:19.405 not bring that kind of those difficulties into my life 0:22:19.405 --> 0:22:20.005 with my children. 0:22:24.485 --> 0:22:29.405 After the break Sally unpacks the part she played in 0:22:29.445 --> 0:22:36.525 the breakdown of her marriage. What do you think the 0:22:36.645 --> 0:22:37.965 role was that you played. 0:22:39.285 --> 0:22:46.685 I think that the let me step back. I always 0:22:46.765 --> 0:22:50.885 wanted to be married, you know, I remember that from 0:22:51.565 --> 0:22:53.445 a youngish age. 0:22:53.685 --> 0:22:55.165 Oh that's interesting that. 0:22:55.485 --> 0:23:00.885 Yeah. I liked the idea of having a partner my 0:23:00.885 --> 0:23:03.525 brother's twins. I wonder if that had something to do with. 0:23:03.485 --> 0:23:05.005 It, younger or older. 0:23:04.765 --> 0:23:10.325 Older older brothers, and Mum said, when we were little, 0:23:10.365 --> 0:23:12.965 I used to say, where's my other one? You know, 0:23:13.165 --> 0:23:16.565