1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: My closest sort of colleagues are like the head of 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: m I six and the head of the cia I 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: run Australia's International Foreign Network of Spies. Took seventy three 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: years for. 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: Them to put a woman into this role. 6 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: You know there is a place in hell reserve for 7 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: women that don't support other women. 8 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 2: Welcome to the sees the YA podcast. Busy and happy 9 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what 10 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but 11 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than 12 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: one way. So this is the platforms to hear and 13 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore 14 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst day 15 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your YA. I'm 16 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned 17 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: funentrepreneur whos walped the suits and heels to co found 18 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. CZA is a series 19 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring 20 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. 21 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: We talk regularly on CZA about the unlikely but incredible 22 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: places you can end up, and how many of the 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 2: best experiences in life are unplanned. You already know how 24 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: blown away I was to be approached by one of 25 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: our intelligence services a few months ago and given access 26 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 2: to a real life spy for one of our most 27 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 2: fascinating episodes to date, which was not only unplanned but 28 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: never even considered being such an outlandish impossibility. But if 29 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 2: you told me that would snowball into a four part 30 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: dedicated espionage and intelligence mini series which would not only 31 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 2: include two further intelligence officers from an even more secret 32 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: spy service, but also its director general, who then invited 33 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: me as the first external visitor in the history of 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: that service, to record at their top secret training facility 35 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: in an undisclosed location. I would have absolutely laughed in 36 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: your face at the sheer impossibility and ridiculousness that it 37 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: could ever happen, and yet it did so. Here we are, 38 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: I think you can hear in my voice how unbelievably 39 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: excited I am that this actually transpired. I could not 40 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 2: be more honored or thrilled to present as our guests 41 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 2: this week the actual head of our most secret organization, 42 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: Kerrie Heartland, the Director General of the Australian Secret Intelligence 43 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: Service or ass AS. We will refer to it as 44 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 2: the first female and first external Deputy Director General of 45 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: ASIO and now the first female Director General of ASIS. 46 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: Kerrie is my absolute hero, not least because she turned 47 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 2: up in head to toe pink with a warmth and 48 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: openness belying the power of her position and her awe 49 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: inspiring experience within the understandable confines of operational secrecy. Kerrie 50 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: opens up about the challenges of a stellar career of firsts, 51 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: her experiences as a powerful female leader in a sea 52 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 2: of black and navy clad males, whether her life resembles 53 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: anything like that of m in James Bond Drop a 54 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: few sees the A exclusives along the way, and also 55 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 2: the humbling role of mum that she comes home to, 56 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: also experiencing the ubiquitous juggle. I still can't believe I 57 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: actually got to pick such an extraordinary brain and share 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: many invaluable lessons on seizing the A. As the modern 59 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: world and therefore modern intelligence landscape evolves, ass is slightly 60 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: relaxing its traditional secrecy so that Australians understand how we 61 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: are being kept safe and also the pathways into a 62 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: life as uniquely fascinating as Kerry's all the intelligence offices 63 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: that we also interviewed just very recently at the time 64 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: of recording, ACES has released its first public organizational branding 65 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: new look website and official Instagram account that I have 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: of course linked in the show notes, and I'm so 67 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: honored to be part of its opening up to the world. 68 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: To that end, as I mentioned, we are also releasing 69 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: a second episode at the same time as this one, 70 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: sharing part of aces's story from a different lens through 71 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: the eye of two senior intelligence officers, Jess and Tara, 72 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: not their real names, of course, given that they are 73 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: real life spies, so you have plenty to catch up 74 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: on this week jam packed with jaw dropping storytelling and reflections. 75 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: I knew I couldn't make you wait another week to 76 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: hear the other side of this story. I feel so 77 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: lucky to be sharing this with the neighborhood, and I 78 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: hope you all enjoy as much as I did. Director General, 79 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: Welcome to CZA, Thank. 80 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: You thanks for having me. 81 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: This is such a pinch me moment, especially that you 82 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: have flown down from camera for the occasion anytime. 83 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: Very very pleased to be here. 84 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, what a privilege. And for our listeners 85 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 2: who don't have the video accompaniment, the director General is 86 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 2: sitting in the most exquisite bright pink and orange combination, 87 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: which is just it's delightful. You've made my day. 88 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: Thank you. I think it's a bit about you know, 89 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: presence and standing out from you know, what's often a 90 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: sea of gray and blue and black. 91 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 2: Suits, so you definitely stand out. And I absolutely love 92 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: that there hasn't been that pressure to conform to the boring. 93 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: This is so exciting. There's so much yay happening right now. 94 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 2: We don't even love it. 95 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: There was quite a discussion about what to wear. 96 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: Oh, we had this discussion off air. Guys. I feel 97 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: like we are just never given the detail we need 98 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: about a dress code. I want nitty gritty details, not 99 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 2: just smart casual. I want heels, no denim, black white, like, 100 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: tell me, give me instruction. I get more anxious about 101 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: the dress code than I do about the interview. 102 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: I think we'll get there, but you know, there are 103 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: so very few women that are in the roles in 104 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: these sorts of organizations still, I no, you know, what 105 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: is it twenty twenty five? You know, But took seventy 106 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: three years for them to. 107 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: Put a woman into this role. 108 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: But we will get there, you know, around the world. 109 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: So yeah, still a way to go. 110 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: Oh, but you are blazing a very bright pink trail 111 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 2: for us all which is very very inspiring and it's funny. 112 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 2: As we mentioned off air as well, I don't think 113 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 2: anyone would take as much notice of a male director 114 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: general's outfit. But also every person who I have said 115 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: I'm interviewing the Director General today, everyone's responded to me 116 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: and said, what's he like? Ah? Interesting and the fury 117 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: within the fury that bubbles on behalf of the girl 118 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: gang absolutely not. 119 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I do think it also makes me 120 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: feel you know, it gives me a bit different presence 121 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: and so makes me actually feel confident, you know, and 122 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: that standing out slightly from the crowd is a bit 123 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: of a confident sort of piece for me. 124 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: I also just like color, Well, if you weren't my 125 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: hero before today, you definitely are now. So I thought 126 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: we would begin with just a little bit of the 127 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: lay of the land for people who don't know what 128 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: our intelligence services and what the landscape looks like, particularly 129 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: because it has traditionally been quite secretive. What is ACES 130 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 2: and how is it distinguished from you know, what we 131 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: might have seen in pop culture, like the CIA or 132 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: m I six. You know, that's often how it's described 133 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: as our foreign intelligence service. But of course they're are 134 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: big differences, So tell us about the organization. 135 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: Yes, So the Australian Secret Intelligence Service ass I run 136 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: Australia's international foreign network of spies, so we collect foreign intelligence. 137 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: Everything has either an acronym or a code word. I'd 138 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: have to say we talk about human which is human 139 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: intelligence as distinct from some of the other intelligence, the 140 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: ins we call them, so yes, the sigints and glins, 141 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: I'd have to say, so that within organization we also 142 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: talk about room Mint, which is actually just rumors, not 143 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: one of the inns, but we do talk about room Mint. 144 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: So my closest sort of colleagues are like the head 145 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: of m I six and the head of the CIA. 146 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: So when you do think about us, they are our 147 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: equivalents in the world and our closest working partners. But 148 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, you can't always believe what you see in 149 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: pop cultures. 150 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: Some of it I love to believe, so I'm hoping 151 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: you don't just fell all of the myths that I 152 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: want to belave you, but now we go. I think 153 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: it is so important because a lot of people don't 154 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: actually even know we have a foreign intelligence service or 155 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: a foreign spire service. So it's incredibly exciting and a 156 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: privilege to have you here to shed a little bit 157 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: more light on it. But I think also one of 158 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: the things I particularly for women, I think of is 159 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: that you can't be what you can't see, and so 160 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: maybe going back a little bit to the earlier parts 161 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: of your career and how you even make your way 162 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: to the top of our spy service would be really 163 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: valuable for perhaps younger aspiring leaders and female leaders. You 164 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 2: know you've the diversity of your career is it's unbelievable. 165 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: I couldn't even write dot points. I was like cadet 166 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: journalists worked in Canada, biotech, finance, energy business. 167 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't quite well, okay, what I wanted to. 168 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: Be when they grow up? So yeah, you're a polymat 169 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: but I mean beginning with a Bachelor of Arts and economics, 170 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: so so broad tell us about the journey. 171 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: So look, I think there is a common thread to 172 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: all of this. I do like to do different things, 173 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: but the common thread has been about that curiosity and 174 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: wanting to understand about people and cultures and the world 175 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: and geopolitics and giving back, you know, so that public 176 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: sector most of those roles. I've had a stint in 177 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: the private sector as well, but have come back to 178 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: what I see as that public sector mission. So that 179 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: common thread has been that sense of you know, wanting 180 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: to question, wanting to know more, and very much a 181 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: people focus. So, you know, from a very young age 182 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: sort of wanting to be a journalist, that was all 183 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: about being inquiring, wanting to understand more and break away 184 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: from what was a very so I went to school 185 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: in a school where there's sixty kids, you know, so 186 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: you want to break away from that and see the 187 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: world and in some ways an idyllic sort of upbringing. 188 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: But there was a big world out there. 189 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: So I think looked for the opportunities, and in retrospect, 190 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: this is a you know, if you think about that 191 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: human part of it, the inquiring mind, curiosity landed in 192 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: a spot that you know, I love and probably in retrospect, 193 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: was you know, the right spot for me. I hope. 194 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. I always think that the dots connect when you 195 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: look back at people's journeys. It's so clear there'll be 196 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: some thread that joins seemingly incongruous experiences together, but going forward, 197 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: you don't often know how it's unraveling. So when you 198 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: were pivoting between very different industries and different roles within 199 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 2: those industries, what was it that would push you to that? 200 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: Because I think for anyone listening who's earlier in their career, 201 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: when you agitate for change, it's hard to know what 202 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: the signs are. Is it more curiosity? Is it that 203 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 2: you feel like you've your learning curve has slowed down, 204 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: that someone has just landed an opportunity in your lap? 205 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 2: Were you seeking them out? All of those things? 206 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: I think Sarah that it is certainly if I felt 207 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: that I was getting into a bit of a comfort zone, 208 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: then you're sort of looking for that next thing. But 209 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: I had great mentors around me and people that saw 210 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: things in me that I hadn't seen in myself and 211 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: would say, look, we think you're a little bit comfortable 212 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: in that role. You know what about this, and so 213 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, I'm very grateful and many of those and 214 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: it was sort of probably also the era in which 215 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: I was growing in my career were male mentors as 216 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: much as female mentors. But that your point about you know, 217 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: you can't be what you can't see probably came to 218 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: me sort of later in my career when I had 219 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: young women coming up and saying, wow, okay, when you 220 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: were in that role, we were really aspiring to sort 221 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: of do that job or coming to me for advice, 222 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: And that was when I probably really stepped up my 223 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: mentoring roles as well, i'd have to say, but it 224 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: was all of those things. It was partly looking for 225 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: those opportunities, probably not surprised to anybody who knows me, 226 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: but also a bit pig headed in the sense that, 227 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to be able to have a 228 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: really sort of diverse career, and I didn't want every 229 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: job that was there, but I actually didn't want to 230 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: be anyone telling me that I couldn't do something. So 231 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: you know, if there was something that I hadn't done 232 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: and tried, I wanted to give it a go and 233 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: prove that I could do it. So probably a character 234 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: flaw right. 235 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: No, absolutely not a strength. I think how we act 236 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: or react to underestimation is very powerful because it can 237 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: either topple you or fuel the fire. For you to 238 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: prove people wrong, especially as a woman. Yes, But what's 239 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 2: really interesting is I found I love that you mentioned 240 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 2: a lot of your mentors were male. And I read 241 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 2: an article that you were interviewed in about who your 242 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: biggest inspiration Wasn't it was your grandfather, It wasn't you know, 243 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 2: a female figure. And I found in my legal career 244 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: that I was told for the entirety of my UNI 245 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: degree to look out for this male dominated environment and 246 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: arm myself to be in you know, and not aggressive, 247 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: but assertive feminist in the workplace, and the worst, not bullying, 248 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: but the worst halting of my career was from other 249 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: women and the biggest champions of my promotion women, which 250 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: was a shocking thing to me entering the workforce as 251 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: this young girl hoping that would be you know, girl power. 252 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: I found it interesting that you also reflected. 253 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: That yeah, yeah, so I mean, and I hate those 254 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: sorts of stories. You know, you want, you want just 255 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: people in general to be supportive, and so I often think, 256 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: and you might have seen this in other articles. I 257 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: reflect on that metal and Albright comment about you know, 258 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: there is a place in hell, you know, reserve for 259 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: women that don't support other women, and I think that's 260 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: so true. I think it's also a matter of you know, 261 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: finding people that actually have a different a slightly different 262 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: skill set to you, you know, and really learning as 263 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: you go through your career, because if you're finding the 264 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: same people and just agreeing all the time, then you're 265 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: not going to grow. So really looking for that sort 266 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: of differential in ideas, you know, and that's what you want. 267 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: That's about diversity, right. 268 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: Yes, I love that. That was a really hard leson 269 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 2: in business because I'm fluffy and I wanted to hire 270 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: other mes who were fluffy because that it feels nice. 271 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: But then it was there was we weren't closing a gap. Yeah, 272 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 2: it was just more of me. 273 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. The same judgment is not always the right judgment, right, Yeah, 274 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: you want different viewpoints. 275 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean the fact that you have had 276 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 2: this incredible trailblazing and pioneering career of so many first 277 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: I mean the first female and first external Deputy Director 278 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: General at ASIOH and then first female director general the 279 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: thirteenth at ASUS. The unbeaten path is exciting, it's progressive, 280 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: it's shiny and prestigious, but not the easiest because there 281 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: is no sort of set of rules on the expectation 282 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: is so much higher than any of the men who 283 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: have gone before you. How do you deal with that 284 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 2: sense of leadership and pressure? 285 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think there is a you know, I 286 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: do feel that responsibility on my shoulder, and probably more 287 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: so in this role than others, not only as the 288 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: first woman. And you don't want to be the last, right, 289 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, you want to actually pay that trail for 290 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: others to come after you. I think, especially in this 291 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: role because there are only three people in Asis that 292 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: are publicly what we call publicly declared or publicly avowed, 293 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: so the legislation and for work safety of our officers 294 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: in terms of the secretive world in which they're working 295 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: and that we need to continue to work, it means 296 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: there's only three of us that can be out there 297 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: talking about the organization in this way representing the organization. 298 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: So you know, you do feel that way of responsibility. 299 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: But you know, you've got to believe in yourself and 300 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: you've been putting this role for a reason. You've worked 301 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: hard to get there, so you know you have to 302 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: have that internal sort of voice that is saying that 303 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: and also playing you know, knowing where your strengths are 304 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: where is your value add not being something that you're not, 305 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: and surrounding yourself with those people that can add to, 306 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, the gaps. 307 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: That you have. 308 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: So I think the biggest issue for people in career 309 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: path is often around self awareness and a lack of 310 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: self awareness. And so really think about what your skill 311 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: set is, what your value add is, and what you 312 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: need to close those gaps of the skill set you 313 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: don't have. 314 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such powerful advice. I think we do get 315 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: so bogged down in that imposter syndrome and it does 316 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: lead some people to self select out of opportunities. Say, 317 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: it's not that they'll embrace the opportunity, feel doubtful and 318 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: learn from it, it's that they won't even apply for 319 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: it at all. Yeah, so you've. 320 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: Got to be in there, get in there, right, you know. 321 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: I recall you know, the first I was I think 322 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: I was five or six days into this role and 323 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: I was going on an internettional to an international event, 324 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: twenty four heads of foreign intelligence services in a room 325 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: one woman that would be made one woman, So I 326 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: was the only and I thought sort of the world 327 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: was in a better spot than that, really, But you know, 328 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: you have to You sort of have to own that. 329 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: But I'd be lying if I said to you that 330 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't going, oh my gosh, how did I get here? 331 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: And having some doubt. But you use that adrenaline. You 332 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,239 Speaker 1: need that adrenaline and then know that it counts and 333 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: what you're doing counts. 334 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that's excellent advice and also very reassuring to 335 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: hear that. It's not that that self doubt disappears. You 336 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: still have it, it's just channeling it in a different 337 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: way and not letting it overcome you. But as you mentioned, 338 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 2: we are so lucky to have one of the few 339 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: declared officers here with us. And I know, of course 340 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: because of secrecy, there are so many things you can't 341 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 2: share with us. But coming back to that, you can't 342 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 2: be what you can't see. I think it's such an 343 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: exciting opportunity to hear about what you do day to day, 344 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 2: even hearing your title doesn't immediately translate to I think 345 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 2: we often hear about the macro of people's lives and 346 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 2: not the micro scale of are you working from an office, 347 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: are you in Australia, are you overseas? Are you traveling 348 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: all the time? Like what are the tasks that as 349 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: the head of all of our foreign spies. What does 350 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 2: that mean? Well, do you do day to day other 351 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: than come here and having a wonderful chat, you know, 352 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: what do you do? 353 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, as you would imagine, no two days look alike. 354 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that's fantastic about the job. 355 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: And look, it's a real privilege to be in this 356 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: in this role. Every day, I am first and foremost 357 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: thinking about the safety and security of my people who 358 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: are working all over the world. You know, they're there 359 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: trying to get in front of the right people, right place, 360 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: right time, to be getting that intelligence that no one 361 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: else can get. And that's exciting, right, and that's what 362 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: drives them. I come in, I'm looking at all of 363 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: that intelligence. I'm asking the questions about how everything has gone. 364 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, I have the last twenty four hours or 365 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: twenty four hours after the last how many hours it 366 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: is since I've been in the office. Wouldn't be twenty 367 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: four you know. Then there will be an aspect of 368 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: the job where I report to the Foreign Minister for Foreign Affairs, 369 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: to Penny Wong. So you know, I'm involved a lot 370 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: in that. I guess in the process of providing that 371 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: intelligence to help the decision makers, you know, help them 372 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: make good decisions, help policymakers make good decisions by getting 373 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: hold of that intelligence. So part of my job will 374 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: be about that intersection with sort of the political processes. 375 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: A lot of my days spent running the organization, as 376 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: you'd imagine, you know, it's an organization like any other. 377 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: And yes, I'm going into an office somewhere, might be 378 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: in Canberra, somewhere in the world, because I am you know, 379 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: one of only three people in the organization that can 380 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: be out there talking about the organization. I'm building relationships. 381 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 2: A lot of my role. 382 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: Is about working with partner agencies and very senior people, 383 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: heads of state, ministers, others around the world as well, 384 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: to be talking to them, forging those relationships in a 385 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: way that others can't. So there's a quiet sort of 386 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: diplomacy piece to this job as well, so really multifaceted, 387 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: which makes it ridibly interesting. But you know, first and foremost, 388 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: it's about making sure that my people are okay, making 389 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: sure that they can do their jobs well, and that 390 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: we're providing that back to sort of our customers, who 391 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: is government and policy agencies within government. 392 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it's the coolest job ever. It is 393 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: pretty cool for the audio listeners. My face is not controlled. 394 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: I'm not controlling myself. On a more macro scale, then, 395 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 2: what are some of the things that I mean, obviously 396 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: not all of I'm sure many of the things that 397 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: you work on aunt declared. But for the things you 398 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 2: are able to share, what are some of the things 399 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 2: on the news or that we might have heard of 400 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: that ASUS would have had a role in in terms 401 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 2: of like a practical example for people listening of where 402 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 2: you might have made a really big difference in something. 403 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: Yes, well, Sarah, as you've said, because we are a 404 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: secret organization, it is a bit of a harder question 405 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: for me to answer. And if we weren't secretive about 406 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: what we do, then we wouldn't be doing our jobs. 407 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: So if we're on the news every night, I should 408 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: just pack up and go home, because we wouldn't be 409 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: actually able to do the things that we do. So, 410 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: you know, we are getting that information that others can't 411 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: in places that others aren't, So that's really important that 412 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: we continue to do that. But what I can say 413 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: is that unfolding sort of events around the world, whether 414 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: it be sort of terrorist events, it might be kidnappings, 415 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: it might be conflict zones. The likelihood is that we 416 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: will be quietly there doing our roles in a way 417 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: and checking our egos at the door, serving you know, 418 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: the people of Australia and the region to make sure 419 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: that people are safe and secure and prosperous. 420 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 2: Oh my god, the big mission. 421 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: You know, people are really driven by that mission. 422 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: You know when you talk. 423 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: To a people. I was talking to one of my 424 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: offices yesterday and said, you know what drives you? And 425 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: he said to me, I have a front row seat 426 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,479 Speaker 1: in a piece of history that no one will know 427 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: that I'm there and what I'm doing, But I'm serving 428 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: Australia and Australians in a row with that in that 429 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: front row seat. 430 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: And I went, my gosh, that's great. A kissing me goosebumps. 431 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely. He did the same to me. Oh okay, 432 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: that's a wonderful way of putting it. 433 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: And I also think in a society and culture that 434 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 2: is so. I think social media has allowed us to 435 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 2: do so many wonderful things, but it has also allowed 436 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: us to be very vocal about our achievements and in 437 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: a good way. But it does mean ego is tied 438 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 2: in with so many different things that we do. And 439 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 2: so for all of the staff at AZO and ASUS 440 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 2: being undeclared, you don't get to shout about the things 441 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 2: that you do that are momentous and impactful. And that 442 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: says something about people who can work as hard as 443 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: they do and not get recognition for that. 444 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, it's you know, it takes really special people. 445 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: I'm working with really special talented people, and so it's 446 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: not for everyone. But you're absolutely right, you know, and 447 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: as I said, of use that term about checking your 448 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: ego at the door, but they know what they have 449 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: done and that's what motivates and drives them. But we 450 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: do celebrate a lot internally, so in ways that other 451 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: organizations probably wouldn't because you know, we take that time 452 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: to do that. We really celebrate. We have our own 453 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: internal awards and we do those things, and across the 454 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: community we do those things as well. And I think 455 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, we know 456 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: what we have done and what value add that we've had. 457 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my gosh, well I know that. Obviously, you 458 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 2: can't share too many details, but I cannot have an 459 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 2: interview like this and not ask The representations in pop 460 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 2: culture obviously vary from wildly inaccurate to probably sometimes skirting around, 461 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: especially with consultants, and I think in the US and 462 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 2: the UK the offices aren't all undeclared, so there's a 463 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 2: bit more out there in terms of consultancy. So I'm 464 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 2: sure it varies from wildly inaccurate to skating around the truth. 465 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: So I have to do how much of your life 466 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: is there anything about m in James Bond that happens 467 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: in your actual life? Like what are the coolest things 468 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: that happen in your life? And have you seen a 469 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: representation in pop culture that is very close to accurate 470 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: even if you can't say how? 471 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: Sure? Sure, And thank you so much for being respectful 472 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: about you know, the secret part of sort of what 473 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: we do. 474 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: It's such a privilege and I know it's to be effective, 475 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: it has to stay. 476 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, But also there is the you know, 477 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: there's the flip side of that. You know, we're funded 478 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: by you know, we're all funding organizations like mine and 479 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: where taxpayer funded, So there is a responsibility there, I think, 480 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: and which is why partly why I'm doing this today 481 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: and doing a little bit more of this and gradually 482 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: sort of you know, pulling back the curve because people 483 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: need to know, you know, that we're there, and that 484 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: we're there for good reason and playing an important part 485 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: for government and for the Australian people, and also know 486 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: what we're not, you know, and that's that popular culture piece. 487 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: So I love a good spy novel. I do watch. 488 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: It's a bit of a guilty pleasure watching spy movies 489 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: and series. And it's really interesting because whenever I, you know, 490 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: people sitting next to me at dinners or and say, oh, 491 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: I'd be watching your action yea, and they go, oh, 492 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: they find it really funny that I'd be watching spy movies. 493 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: It's funny. But so I do like Slow Horses. And 494 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: Jackson Lamb was doing an interview last night on the 495 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: seven thirty Report and it was yeah, I liked him 496 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: even more as a result of that, you know, because 497 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: he's playing a character and things. But look, if there 498 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: was anyone that knows Slow Horses, if the the Jackson 499 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: Lamb character in there is not who we are, have 500 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: to say they're based on m I five. So so 501 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, we would no one like that would survive 502 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: in our organization, right, you know, you need good leaders, 503 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: you need people with integrity, with a good value, good 504 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: moral compass. He comes across as none of those things. 505 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: Very yeah, a real slot and that's that's not who 506 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: we are. But I'd have say there are the things 507 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: that I like in some of the more recent sort 508 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: of series, including Slow Horses and has come out, is 509 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: that they're not portraying that single James Bond figure is 510 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: going out and you know, saving the world while and 511 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: Slow Horses is an incredibly dysfunctional team people team. So 512 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: I think you know that the fact that you know, 513 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: we're really powered by technology and everything we do, even 514 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: though we're a human organization. You know, technology is everywhere. 515 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: We need to be able to work with it. We 516 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: need to understand how it works against us. So you know, 517 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: we need those technology experts, you know, we need we 518 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: need our good legal teams around us, we need our 519 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: people teams and on the ground. You know, we've got 520 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: a whole series of people that come to you know, 521 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: doing operational work. So so I do think, you know, 522 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: having much more of that team based thing. But the 523 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: Slow Forces is a favorite. So and can I say 524 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: to you, sir, that M doesn't really exist in m 525 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: I six ahead of that organization is actually called C 526 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: and they just had a change of people there as C, 527 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: and Sir Richard Moore has just left the job, has 528 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: been a great friend and colleague to me. And I've 529 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: had the first woman come into that role. So I'm 530 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: also secretly pleased that Australia did that first. 531 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, women in a foreign intelligence service. 532 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, so they've just changed those roles. But so 533 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: I will let you in on a little secret though 534 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: that really knows is that, in the same way that 535 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: we have C in m I six, my designation and 536 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: every code words are our life. My designation is A. 537 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: So there's a little stupid. 538 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 2: I mean, I think you can tell that I'm not 539 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: only very excited to interview because it's a privilege, but 540 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: also because I am so excited by espionage and intelligence 541 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: like my whole life. 542 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,239 Speaker 1: I'm reading the David mccloskey's except the moment I'm not 543 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: telling you, Yeah, I think, well, I know that certainly, 544 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: I've got three of them at home. I don't know 545 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: whether he's written more than that's okay, So I'm I'm 546 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: reading the second one at the moment, so yeah. 547 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: He will give his book so thrilled to know that. 548 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: Well, I knew that you had done, you know, done 549 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: an interview. I should get in contact with him and say, actually, 550 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: loving your. 551 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: Books so fun. 552 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: James probably going, actually, you can't promote somebody. 553 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: Well, one of the things he also speaks about, and 554 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: he speaks quite liberally. I think about the service, but 555 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: i've because the CIO is quite different. But one thing 556 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: I asked him about was the disguised Department CIA. Do 557 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: we have an equivalent. 558 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm a twenty five year old, six foot one man. 559 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: I felt basketball coming from you exactly. 560 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I'm not actually going to answer 561 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: that question directly. I'm just saying, but you know, it's 562 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: not about mustaches and putting on glasses and those sorts 563 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: of exactly. You know, what we need to do is 564 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: blend in with the communities in which we're in, wherever 565 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: we are in the world, and so that's where that 566 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: diversity piece comes in. You know, we we need to 567 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: resemble the societies that we're in. So not only for 568 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: all of the very right reasons about having a genuine diversity, 569 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: for genuine difference of thought, difference of discussion, and innovation. 570 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 1: We also have a really practical reason to be a 571 00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: diverse service, So you know, diversity is our disguise really fascinating. 572 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: Well, we've spoken a lot about your incredible work and 573 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: your career and I can't imagine how you would ever 574 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 2: be able to switch off from the level of fluency 575 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: you have to have with everything that's going on in 576 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: the world. And yet I'm sure you do sleep and 577 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: that is important you rest. How do you decompress outside 578 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 2: of work, And is it actually possible in a role 579 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: like yours to switch off because they're you know, the 580 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: things that are happening in the world don't sort of close. 581 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: There's no nine to five when it comes to global events. 582 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you're right, and you know, and the world's 583 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: in a pretty complicated state at the moment. So but 584 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: look really important. We put a lot of effort into 585 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: sort of mental health and well being in the service 586 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: as well. But for me personally, you know, I can't 587 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: be the best leader I can be. I can't be 588 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, setting the strategy and the priorities and you know, 589 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: working around the world if I'm actually also not resting 590 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: properly and being able to focus. So I try to 591 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: do things so where I do, I can turn off. 592 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: So I'm quite a bad golf player, but I play golf, 593 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: which also just gets me out and abound, you know, 594 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: into the fresh outdoors. Yeah, I can be up outdoors. 595 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: You know, it gets incredibly frustrating. But you know, I'm 596 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: a skier, and so when I ski, I've got to focus. 597 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm not great, you know, I'm an okay skier, but 598 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, you've got to focus. So I find those 599 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: things I've done boxing at different times. 600 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: You know, just so that you know, because. 601 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: It's things that you can't not focus on, you know. 602 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: So so you've got to be able to find those 603 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: little tricks to turn off. And of course, you know 604 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: at home, I'm just mum, and you know, it's the 605 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: what's for dinner? Although the family's sort of grown up now, 606 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: but still you know, when they're back, it's sort of 607 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: how is your day? 608 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 2: Oh? 609 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: Okay, what are you cooking? You know, it's that sort 610 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: of thing. So you know, family is also a great level. 611 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 2: Al right, Oh my gosh, I mean I had completely 612 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 2: forgotten this question because I'm like you are up in 613 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: this level echelon of person that's just above and I 614 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 2: still do the shopping. You still, So how do you 615 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: do that delicate dance between your career and mothering? 616 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: Well much easier when now you know both the girls 617 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: are grown up and moved out, but you know, it 618 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: is a constant juggle and you you know, I think 619 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: as you go through as a mum, as a parent, 620 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,239 Speaker 1: you know you feel like you're never in the right 621 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: place at the right time, and you know you always 622 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: have that sense of you know, guilt and what you do. 623 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: But but you know you need to be able to 624 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: focus on what you're doing at different times. So you know, 625 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: that's that's another bit of an art form. But you know, 626 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: I think you know, family, are you constant in your life? 627 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 2: Right? 628 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: They're going to be there long after I finished this job, 629 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: and so being able to give enough time to that 630 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: and be fully present is really important. I think one 631 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: of the one of the good things in terms of 632 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 1: that work life balance for me here is that I 633 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: can't actually physically take a lot of that work home. 634 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: You know, we work in very secure environments, so when 635 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: I am home, i'm home in present, so yes, and 636 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: I can't carry a lot of stuff on planes, so 637 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: I can do that guilty pleasure of watching switch exactly succession, 638 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: something loves succession. 639 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 2: I just wish I could functional characters so dysfunctional. I 640 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 2: just wish I could crawl into your brain and then 641 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: watch just by show and be able to that wouldn't happen. 642 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: I told them about that. There are a few moments 643 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 2: like that. Gosh, that is so interesting. Well, thank you 644 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: for giving us this little snapshot of the incredible work 645 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: you do. And I think it is so exciting what 646 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: the organization has ahead with a really big rebrand and 647 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 2: lifting of the veil on what has been secret for 648 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: so long, because it is we take for granted the 649 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: everyday Australian that we are safe and that we get 650 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: to live our lives, and I think we need to 651 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: know more of how that's thanks to you, not just 652 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 2: a coincidence. Your success is that we don't know anything 653 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 2: happened at all or was maybe going to happen. 654 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: So it really is a thanks to all of those 655 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: incredible brave men and women that are doing all the 656 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: work behind me. I'm just I'm the figurehead at the front, 657 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: So thank you, and you know you will see we 658 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: are coming out with some branding. It's a brave new 659 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: world for us, and so stay tuned because you will 660 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: see a bit more of that in you know, maybe 661 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 1: airports and online and maybe some more things in person. 662 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: But I also have a bit of a little bit 663 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: of a surprise for you because an invitation if you choose, 664 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 1: you know. 665 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 2: To take the exactly. 666 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: Hopefully not that I'd really like you to come down 667 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: to one of our secure training facilities and we I've 668 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: never done this before, Sarah, and to talk to some 669 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: of our people that are the you know, training people 670 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: that are going through the training that we have and 671 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: giving you a little bit of more insight into, you know, 672 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: the people we are and the people I have the 673 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: privilege of working with. 674 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I actually I cannot because I am deceased. 675 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 2: I have passed away from the excitement about this opportunity. Absolutely, 676 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 2: what an incredible opportunity. Look, I'm so excited. I'm not 677 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 2: going to sleep to Christmas, but yes, I mean will be. 678 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: I'm so so grateful for this amazing opportunity and also 679 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 2: to be able to show a little bit of different 680 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: sides of the organization and you know, having your sort 681 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 2: of career trajectory, but then also a little bit of 682 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 2: what's happening on the ground can give I think the 683 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 2: every day Australian listener a little bit of an idea 684 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: from both sides what's happening. So we will get to 685 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: take you along, dear listeners, and I just this is 686 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 2: a dream come true. I can retire everyone. This is 687 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 2: the pinnacle. 688 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: And just before we finish, I did want to give 689 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 1: you a little gift us. So I have every intelligence 690 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: organization actually has a coin, but this is my personal coin, 691 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: and the coin has my own signature color. So I 692 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: sign everything in purple so that people know that that 693 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,760 Speaker 1: is my authorization. So it's my color in the same 694 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: way that c As we talked about earlier from m 695 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: I six signs everything in green. 696 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: Gosh, that is. 697 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: So I'd just like to leave that with you to 698 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: say thank you. 699 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 2: Oh my god, I mean, you've made my lifelong dreams 700 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: come I need okay, you so special, thank you so much, pleasure, 701 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,280 Speaker 2: so cool that you sign in purple. I know. 702 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: We've trolled the shops to try and you find the 703 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: right pins so. 704 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 2: That you go and take them off the shake. Thank 705 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: you so much. Uch, I take inspiration from so many people, 706 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 2: but I rarely think of a single person and want 707 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 2: to be them when I grow up, But Kerrie Hartland 708 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,959 Speaker 2: would be the exception. She is one of the most 709 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 2: impressive people I've ever met, and I feel so lucky 710 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: that she shared so much with us. I just wish 711 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 2: I could crawl into that brain for all the things 712 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 2: that she couldn't share. I mean, honestly, the things that 713 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: she must know. As you heard, Carrie so kindly arranged 714 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 2: the most amazing experience of my life the day after 715 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: this recording to follow up with part two, where we 716 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: traveled to a top secret ACES training facility. That episode 717 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 2: has also dropped today so that you can listen to 718 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 2: them together. I know that many of you would not 719 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 2: want to wait a week so you can listen to 720 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 2: two sides of the same coin. If you did enjoy listening, 721 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 2: please share the episode, tagging Ass' brand new page to 722 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 2: show them some yighborhood love and thank them so much 723 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 2: for opening up for the very first time, but also 724 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 2: because give them a warm welcome to Instagram and it's 725 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 2: the first time they've been here. But it also means 726 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 2: so much us to grow the neighborhood as far and 727 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 2: wide as possible. In the meantime, I hope you're having 728 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 2: an amazing week and seizing your Yay