Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.
Speaker 2: It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the
Speaker 2: twentieth of July.
Speaker 3: I'm Pollywayen, Rightnham.
Speaker 2: I'm Amelia Lester, and here's what's on our agenda for today.
Speaker 2: There was only really one place to be this morning,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't here in the studio with us, which
Speaker 2: is unfortunate. It was watching the football with Madonna and Trump.
Speaker 2: And depending on who's where you were sitting and who
Speaker 2: with you, either had a great time or a cringey time.
Speaker 1: We'll be talking you through everyone who is there hair
Speaker 1: not wait.
Speaker 3: Plus a theory that human interaction is fading due to
Speaker 3: a device that's actually not a.
Speaker 4: Smart fooh, and an Australian parental leave policy is making
Speaker 4: some people very happy and some people very angry.
Speaker 3: But first, Emily Vernon, in case you missed it, it's
Speaker 3: the season of celebrity wedding.
Speaker 2: It really is, isn't it. I guess it's because it's
Speaker 2: the northern summer. Oh and so so you know, normally
Speaker 2: the northern summer isn't that hot, although in recent years
Speaker 2: climate change has put paid to that. So more summer
Speaker 2: weddings than the Spring wedding.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 3: Well, Melsey, also known as Sporty Spies, recently got married
Speaker 3: over the weekend to one of us and Australi. His
Speaker 3: name is Chris Dingwall and he is an Australian model.
Speaker 3: They got married, I think in an intimate it's been
Speaker 3: reported has been an intimate wedding in England. All the
Speaker 3: Spice girls were there except Vicki b but she did
Speaker 3: make the gap.
Speaker 4: Oh I love that.
Speaker 2: I congratulations, congratulations Sporty. I do not want to rain
Speaker 2: on your beautiful parade. It looked amazing. I'm so happy
Speaker 2: for you. This is the first time she got married. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: which is impressive. I guess is it?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'll stop talking, but I won't stop talking because I
Speaker 2: questioned the vickib exclusion.
Speaker 1: Because she was at the football.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the reason she wasn't there is she's in New York.
Speaker 2: She was at the final today with the rest of
Speaker 2: the Beckham family. But she doesn't know to be there.
Speaker 4: She does though, because because England weren't in it, they
Speaker 4: weren't in it. But we learned last week, and we
Speaker 4: talked about on the podcast last week that David Beckham
Speaker 4: had a very prominent role this year's World Cup. It's
Speaker 4: all part of a partnership with FIFA. He is what's
Speaker 4: known as a vvi IP, very very important person and
Speaker 4: it's estimated that he's going to make upwards of thirty
Speaker 4: million dollars from the brand exposure that he got at
Speaker 4: the World Cup.
Speaker 2: Because not everybody loves FIFA, as we'll get to a
Speaker 2: little bit later, and so it's good to happen. So
Speaker 2: do you think it was in his contract Posh be there?
Speaker 4: Of course? Well, even if not in his contract, I
Speaker 4: think that the way he sells stuff is by being
Speaker 4: David Beckham inc Like married to Posh looking handsome in
Speaker 4: a suit at the soccer game. Like, that's all part
Speaker 4: of how he sells things.
Speaker 2: Okay, So in that case, this was a scheduling error
Speaker 2: on Melsey's part.
Speaker 4: And I think Melsey gets it like she gets it.
Speaker 4: VICKI designed a beautiful dress for her. I thought it
Speaker 4: was really lovely.
Speaker 3: I just hope she got to FaceTime in while she
Speaker 3: was watching the game, going, I really don't want to
Speaker 3: be here. I wish I could be.
Speaker 2: Well, it was on Saturday, right, which was the day
Speaker 2: that England did play that amazing like third place game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what.
Speaker 2: This isn't a sports show, but anyway, so she may
Speaker 2: have been busy. My other question is they got married
Speaker 2: on Saturday in England today, which is Monday our time.
Speaker 2: Photos are all in vogue.
Speaker 3: She did what the girls needed, That's what I mean
Speaker 3: release of photos.
Speaker 2: There is a certain other celebrity whose wedding pictures are
Speaker 2: still somewhere lost between the camera shop and there right
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 3: I feel like if Taylor Swift does release her photos,
Speaker 3: I'm going to be angry.
Speaker 4: Well, we do have to mention that Maddy Healy, her ex,
Speaker 4: got married over the weekend as well.
Speaker 3: Aberanti shots. So far, no release of photos.
Speaker 4: Right, but quite clear paparazzi shot. It's not that we
Speaker 4: can join that on this show, and not that I
Speaker 4: even looked at them. The wedding was, I am told
Speaker 4: in Los Angeles in front of the Hollywood Sign, so
Speaker 4: very West Coast glam of the very interesting counterpoint to
Speaker 4: the East Coast of Taylor's wedding.
Speaker 2: Honestly, no one of these people paid enough attention to
Speaker 2: the football fixtures, like if England had made it to
Speaker 2: the final, Maddi, heally would have had to call his
Speaker 2: wedding off like that.
Speaker 1: Is what would have happened.
Speaker 4: That's true.
Speaker 2: Anyway, I'll try and stop mentioning they took hers. We're
Speaker 2: happy for Melver she was in here last year. The
Speaker 2: office lost his mind when Melsei was in Sydney last
Speaker 2: year filming the Voice. She came in and did an
Speaker 2: interview for No Filter. And I have never seen so
Speaker 2: many of my cool millennial colleagues losing their fricking mind.
Speaker 4: She was the coolest spice girl. I'm saying it. She
Speaker 4: was the coolest spice girl on icon Is.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't know, No, I'm kidding the girls girls. And
Speaker 3: it was a big deal because Stacy asked our producer
Speaker 3: Grace if she could be the one to bring Melseie
Speaker 3: a glass.
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. She's like running the website, but she's like.
Speaker 2: Hold on a minute, I just need to be the
Speaker 2: person who carries a glass of water into the studio.
Speaker 1: And she did it perfectly.
Speaker 4: The Australian fashion brand did is giving staff with children
Speaker 4: under twelve and extra two weeks of paid parental leave
Speaker 4: per year. This was just announced last week. Hurrah, the
Speaker 4: female Vana company says the policy is designed to support
Speaker 4: working parents if they're managing school pickup, sickness, important school events,
Speaker 4: and it's also and I thought this was interesting to
Speaker 4: help close the financial gap facing women in the workforce.
Speaker 4: Dish wrote that they are arguing ambition and motherhood are
Speaker 4: not opposing paths. This has been a very polarizing move.
Speaker 4: I think it's safe to say. I was reading comments
Speaker 4: on a Reddit forum for the child free and people.
Speaker 4: Here are just some samples of what people were saying
Speaker 4: from there. They describe it as a parental supremacy mindset.
Speaker 4: This is a direct quote. Why don't child free people
Speaker 4: get the same extra time off to spend time on
Speaker 4: what we enjoy? Someone described it as workplace discrimination. Someone
Speaker 4: else said I'd start talking about my imaginary children who
Speaker 4: happen to be my cats.
Speaker 1: Oh, such a good idea, and I think there.
Speaker 4: Are some Look, I'm really happy that Dish is doing this,
Speaker 4: but I think that it is possible to see some
Speaker 4: of these arguments as valid. And I wanted to first
Speaker 4: throw to you Am to see what you, as a
Speaker 4: child free person, thinks of this.
Speaker 3: I want my two weeks as well. If parents are
Speaker 3: getting two weeks. If mums are getting two weeks and
Speaker 3: it's not just it's not parental leave, it's annually no.
Speaker 2: But it is parental leave like as in the way
Speaker 2: that this is framed in the parental.
Speaker 3: Leave, but it's taking place within twelve years, so they
Speaker 3: get two extra weeks of leave until their child is
Speaker 3: twelve years old.
Speaker 4: On top of dishes four weeks of annually.
Speaker 3: So for me, that comes into the annual leave area
Speaker 3: where I get less annual leave than women who have children.
Speaker 3: And I think that this is just going to make
Speaker 3: a huge divide in workplaces between women who have children
Speaker 3: and women who don't, especially coworkers who have the same job,
Speaker 3: who are doing the same amount of work, who have
Speaker 3: the same salary. It is discrimination if one of them
Speaker 3: is getting extra leaved.
Speaker 1: And the other.
Speaker 4: So you were quite annoyed by I was annoyed.
Speaker 2: So you mean it will create division in workplaces if
Speaker 2: this became a more common thing, Because a lot of
Speaker 2: people who are in the parental leave space are really
Speaker 2: celebrating this. They're saying this is people need to realize
Speaker 2: that parenthood, like making parenthood and work compatible, is much
Speaker 2: more than just giving you a few weeks pay when
Speaker 2: you have a baby, right, And I think that's why
Speaker 2: this is being celebrated by those who see that. I
Speaker 2: would personally very much celebrate it because I think that
Speaker 2: that is absolutely true.
Speaker 3: The thing is, there's.
Speaker 2: No such thing as a perfect way to do this,
Speaker 2: but your everything changes about your life when you have
Speaker 2: a kid, right, and you whether your kid is a
Speaker 2: newborn or whether your kid is eight and at school,
Speaker 2: the demands on your time are different, right, recognizing that
Speaker 2: and trying to make little headway into how to basically
Speaker 2: keep hold of your workforce, because that's what this is about.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: Some bosses will say this is an unattainable standard for
Speaker 2: most businesses to be able to pay for an extra
Speaker 2: two weeks leave for their workforce. But Dish is a
Speaker 2: small ish, female run, female founded business. Ninety four percent
Speaker 2: of their staff are women, so they know what they're
Speaker 2: doing and the reason they're doing this is to stop
Speaker 2: the attrition that you inevitably get when people have kids,
Speaker 2: maybe then have another kid, think that they can come
Speaker 2: back to work and all is dandy, but actually it
Speaker 2: is exhausting and impossible, and then you put school holidays
Speaker 2: into the mix and people quit and they go part time,
Speaker 2: or they work for themselves, or they go and get
Speaker 2: a job that's more flexible, or all those things. This
Speaker 2: is a smart move for businesses who recognize they've got
Speaker 2: a lot of parents on their books and they want
Speaker 2: to keep hold of them because they've invested a lot
Speaker 2: of time in training them having them in the business.
Speaker 2: The other thing about that, of course, is that you
Speaker 2: only ever see the world through your lens in a way.
Speaker 2: So I would see those parents leaving early in my estimation,
Speaker 2: but I don't know whether they would get back online later.
Speaker 2: I wasn't in a position of management then in that
Speaker 2: way to get back online later or whatever. And I
Speaker 2: know that at different times in my life since I've
Speaker 2: been a parent, having the flexibility to be able to
Speaker 2: do that is much more important than lots of other stuff.
Speaker 2: And parents are often working weird hours, early in the morning,
Speaker 2: late at night, different things in order to try and
Speaker 2: make all these competing priorities merge.
Speaker 3: But it's the same in the sense where they're getting
Speaker 3: extra leave over a personal choice. And I completely agree.
Speaker 3: I think parents need more leave to look after kids,
Speaker 3: but I think you can't just give it to one
Speaker 3: group of people and not the rest of your company.
Speaker 3: I've been a huge advocate for menstrual leave. That's something
Speaker 3: that happens to women that we don't have a choice,
Speaker 3: and it's happening to us.
Speaker 2: And to be clear on this particular issue for this
Speaker 2: particular business, we don't know if that is a thing.
Speaker 1: So we're talking about this generally like.
Speaker 3: This is being and a law. Then I think there
Speaker 3: are so many ways you can give women leave for
Speaker 3: things that are completely out of their control. But I
Speaker 3: think when you do it over a choice that they're
Speaker 3: making and one group don't get that choice, it's just
Speaker 3: going to create conflict in the workplace.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I hear you on the conflict point. I think
Speaker 4: one sort of very zoomed out perspective on this. We've
Speaker 4: talked a lot on this show about the fertility crisis
Speaker 4: and about how young people are choosing not to have children,
Speaker 4: and the people who are very worried about that are politicians.
Speaker 4: And the reason why politicians are worried about it is
Speaker 4: because children aren't just children. Children are also future tax
Speaker 4: payers who then fund Medicare, they help fund the age pension,
Speaker 4: they help fund the roads and the schools and all
Speaker 4: the other things that we depend upon as a society.
Speaker 4: So if not enough people have children, there aren't enough taxes,
Speaker 4: society falls apart. So I hear you on the choice idea.
Speaker 4: But the problem is this is a choice that ultimately
Speaker 4: benefits everyone in Australian society, and the fact that some
Speaker 4: people are putting up their hand to do it and
Speaker 4: to throw themselves into that work of raising good, productive
Speaker 4: members of society is worth recognizing and trying to make
Speaker 4: it easier for them. It's not a choice to get
Speaker 4: a manicure.
Speaker 2: It's also interesting because I think, and I'm not saying
Speaker 2: this is the right way to do it, but there
Speaker 2: was a time in my career when my kids were
Speaker 2: a little ware this is what I negotiated. So at
Speaker 2: the time when it was pay increased time like negot
Speaker 2: you know, yearly review and all those things, I said,
Speaker 2: I know this sounds weird, but I'm just kind of
Speaker 2: illustrating how important time becomes. I was like, I would
Speaker 2: much rather have another week's leave than a pay rise,
Speaker 2: Like time had become much more important to me at
Speaker 2: that particular moment than the incremental pay rise I was
Speaker 2: going to get. Now, that obviously is something that everybody
Speaker 2: can or should do. And you know, money and the
Speaker 2: ability to feed your family is at the top of
Speaker 2: the tree, but time becomes such a different resource when
Speaker 2: you're trying to juggle work and family. And so I
Speaker 2: get it that you could be that anyone else someone
Speaker 2: who isn't doing that, although I would and I know
Speaker 2: this is also an annoying and inflammatory thing to say,
Speaker 2: I would probably say, isn't doing that? Yet I think
Speaker 2: that you don't really see that value in the same way.
Speaker 3: But I could use time to do things you could,
Speaker 3: and I think a lot of women could use it.
Speaker 3: I think there are also women who want to be
Speaker 3: parents and can't be parents, and there are also women
Speaker 3: who are caring for their parents, And I think it's yeah,
Speaker 3: I obviously there's like fine print to this that we
Speaker 3: can't really dissect. It will be different for everyone, but
Speaker 3: I think there are those like kind of little areas
Speaker 3: that will will make people like me just be really
Speaker 3: angry at the situation, because there are so many different
Speaker 3: situations where time is valuable and it's not always taking
Speaker 3: care of kids.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I entirely respect that. Of course, we don't know
Speaker 2: what the rest of the careers leave situation is like.
Speaker 2: So that's the fairest way to do that is to
Speaker 2: make there be a bucket of care as leave, and
Speaker 2: you use it for whatever caring you need. What is
Speaker 2: interesting is in the reporting about Dish's decision to do
Speaker 2: this again. They are one small small business. They say
Speaker 2: that actually it's no surprise that since they've implemented it
Speaker 2: there's been one hundred and forty percent boost in job applications.
Speaker 1: It's smart business.
Speaker 2: It's smart business because even though and I hope that
Speaker 2: I'm always very mindful of the idea that, of course
Speaker 2: not every woman wants to be a mother, and of
Speaker 2: course not everybody should follow that path, but the reality
Speaker 2: is it still is the path that most women follow.
Speaker 2: So when they're coming to that time in their life,
Speaker 2: this becomes incredibly important.
Speaker 3: I know what you mean about the division.
Speaker 2: I don't know what the answer is about that, except
Speaker 2: to make sure that there are maybe you're flexible about
Speaker 2: other kinds of negotiations only.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I also feel like if this became a thing, like,
Speaker 3: let's say, in the future, this becomes a great incentive
Speaker 3: for the government to implement to get that baby boost.
Speaker 3: It could also have the opposite effect, where companies do
Speaker 3: have a bias against women with children and won't hire
Speaker 3: them because I know they'll end up paying more for
Speaker 3: the parental aide.
Speaker 2: That's often business owners argument about pushing too hard on
Speaker 2: generous parental leave programs is that it will backfire on
Speaker 2: women and that it makes it it can make it
Speaker 2: less appealing to have a female heavy workforce.
Speaker 4: It's interesting that in the articles around this, I was
Speaker 4: surprised to learn that one third of Australian companies do
Speaker 4: not have any kind of paid parental leave program even still,
Speaker 4: so it's clearly something that companies are continuing to grapple
Speaker 4: with as they think about their bottom lines as well.
Speaker 2: After the break at the football with Madonna discuss so
Speaker 2: the World Cup finish today, I'm sure there's a portion
Speaker 2: of out louders who will be like, thank God for that,
Speaker 2: because I keep hearing them talk about it. It's everywhere
Speaker 2: I look on the internet. I'm done with it. How
Speaker 2: do you feel about the World Cup finishing?
Speaker 3: Him? My walk to work was very difficult because they
Speaker 3: had a big viewing station up in Darling Harbor and
Speaker 3: I have to walk through Darling Harbor to get to work,
Speaker 3: and I got here late and it was a football
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: Because this morning, for context, it was the World Cup final,
Speaker 2: so the last game. The World Cup has been going
Speaker 2: on for I think six weeks. It's a long time.
Speaker 2: It goes on a long time. Obviously, I like it
Speaker 2: because I like football. I know Amelia's been enjoying it.
Speaker 2: We've been discussing it every morning. But what everyone's discussing
Speaker 2: today is not so much the football or though Spain
Speaker 2: one and some people like myself are pretty happy about that,
Speaker 2: but all the celebrity sparkle and spangle that went alongside
Speaker 2: it today because the World Cup was in America, it
Speaker 2: was in America, and Canada and Mexico they like co
Speaker 2: host it. But the finale was in New York and
Speaker 2: so every famous person new sorry it was in New Jersey.
Speaker 2: Every famous person went. It was like Taylor Swifts wedding
Speaker 2: all over again, all like the nixt game. And I
Speaker 2: tried to do, Yes, what they tried to do because
Speaker 2: this was an American World Cup is they tried to
Speaker 2: make it more small American because the halftime show is
Speaker 2: not a thing in football, right football? And when I
Speaker 2: say football, I mean soccer, but I mean football. It
Speaker 2: isn't a thing. The halftime in soccer is fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1: Top, that's it.
Speaker 2: Fifteen minutes, tight little circle, that's it right. Not today
Speaker 2: it wasn't It was twenty seven minutes because Madonna had
Speaker 2: to come on in a car, singing music car. It
Speaker 2: looked like she started in a basement, but she got
Speaker 2: out onto the pitch.
Speaker 3: It was great.
Speaker 1: She was supported by.
Speaker 2: Driving the car was Ronaldinho, who's like a really famous
Speaker 2: footballer who's quite past his prime, and he's just there
Speaker 2: like beast by driving Madonna.
Speaker 1: Then BTS came on and sang, oh they were so good.
Speaker 2: Then at Ted Lasso brought Justin Bieber on as a sobacas.
Speaker 4: Is having a big summer because he went to Taylor's wedding.
Speaker 2: He did, and so he they did this little thing
Speaker 2: him and his mate were they And I love Teddler
Speaker 2: so as you know, but I thought this was a
Speaker 2: bit cringe.
Speaker 3: And they held up a.
Speaker 2: Big like blabe JB suck. And then Justin Bieber came
Speaker 2: on with his guitar and in Hallelujah.
Speaker 1: That was kind of lovely.
Speaker 3: It was was very slow, but then and.
Speaker 2: Then Shakira came on, I'm going to have Shakira, and
Speaker 2: then just as I was getting really cynical, it all
Speaker 2: fell in a puddle because when Chris Martin came on
Speaker 2: and sang with this big choir of school kids, and
Speaker 2: then all the other celebrities came on at New Jersey kids,
Speaker 2: it was actually New York, New York's God, look I
Speaker 2: keep getting the New.
Speaker 4: York school island.
Speaker 3: That's right. It was actually quite touching.
Speaker 4: It was that Chris Martin.
Speaker 2: He always knows how to tug at your heartstrings, so
Speaker 2: that was all very fabulous. In the crowd, we had
Speaker 2: Chalameaie who never misses a sporting occasion, to canoodle with
Speaker 2: his missus.
Speaker 1: Tom Cruise spoke before it.
Speaker 4: Why was he there?
Speaker 2: Robbie Williams sang, Jennifer Hudson did the national national anthem.
Speaker 2: Matt Damon and Luciana Barrosso his wife, were there in
Speaker 2: the audience. Jay Z and Beyonce were there.
Speaker 4: Lad Lively Girls squad. Who's in her new Girl We
Speaker 4: don't know, but she's going everywhere with three other women.
Speaker 2: Sarah, Jessica Parker, Jua Lipa. All the famous people were there,
Speaker 2: but Amelia. What happened when Trump tried to borrow some
Speaker 2: of this sparkle from the biggest sporting event in the world,
Speaker 2: because let's remember, billions and billions of people watch the
Speaker 2: World Cup Final. There is some great viral content going
Speaker 2: on of like street interviews with Americans saying, what do
Speaker 2: you think the difference in viewership is between the Super
Speaker 2: Bowl and the World Cup Final? And they're all like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, twenty five thousand and no, like twenty
Speaker 2: five billion. I'm exaggerating anyway.
Speaker 3: So Trump tried to borrow a bit of the sparkle.
Speaker 4: Well, just like, let's remember that the only thing Trump
Speaker 4: has said about this glorious international sporting event happening on
Speaker 4: his home turf the entire time has been to attempt
Speaker 4: and then get a red card rescinded from a teen
Speaker 4: USA player.
Speaker 3: So after admitting that he didn't know how the game
Speaker 3: worked a happening.
Speaker 4: He's not exactly been throwing himself into the fandom thing here.
Speaker 4: So then he turns out a greater final. He's a
Speaker 4: great athlete, he turns up for the and he walks
Speaker 4: onto the pitch after the game with FIFA President Gianni Fantino.
Speaker 1: Who is not a very popular guy in the football
Speaker 1: in world just saying.
Speaker 4: No, and Holly has written in the notes and the
Speaker 4: crowd couldn't decide who to boom more loudly. And that is.
Speaker 2: It's true because fun I mean, I don't want to
Speaker 2: get to inside football. But Fantino is a bit unpopular
Speaker 2: because he's very into the money grabbing element of the
Speaker 2: World Cup. So they've had dynamic pricing that's meant tickets
Speaker 2: been going for thousands and thousands of dollars. He's expanded
Speaker 2: the program to have more teams, which some people actually
Speaker 2: argue has been great, but others say it's too hard
Speaker 2: for the players exhaustion, Da da, da da. There's some
Speaker 2: question marks about who he has agreed to let host
Speaker 2: the World Cup, like in Saudi Arabia, and they've turned
Speaker 2: it into four courts instead of too hard.
Speaker 4: And of course he decided to give out the inaugural
Speaker 4: Fee for Peace prize to Donald Trump, which people thought
Speaker 4: was a bit on the nose because Trump keeps starting wars.
Speaker 4: So anyway they come on the field, everyone boos them
Speaker 4: and then Trump tries to sort of revel in the
Speaker 4: in the in the Spain team's glory. Now Spain is
Speaker 4: notoriously anti Trump, like they probably be the most anti
Speaker 4: Trump European country, whereas Argentina had Argentina one. Argentina's president
Speaker 4: is like a little like wanna be mini me Trump type,
Speaker 4: so he was probably disappointed that Spain won, but then
Speaker 4: Spain kind of didn't want anything to do with him.
Speaker 4: They were too fixated on the World Cup. And then
Speaker 4: he just sort of hovers on stage during his like YMCA,
Speaker 4: I'm drying my back with a towel down, and then
Speaker 4: finally Gianni himself has to basically lead Trump off stage
Speaker 4: because he won't go.
Speaker 3: It's a bit embarrassing. It actually perfectly encapsulated what it's
Speaker 3: like to score a goal in a World Cup game,
Speaker 3: where the whole team is celebrating together and the goalie
Speaker 3: is just back there.
Speaker 4: I like that as a sporting metaphor. Yes, that's exactly
Speaker 4: what it was like.
Speaker 2: So go have a look at all the pictures of
Speaker 2: all the celebrities at the World Cup. We need to
Speaker 2: very heavily analyze who played Lively was with. She obviously
Speaker 2: has cred to be there because Ryan Reynolds owns a
Speaker 2: football team. I think maybe he owns two football teams now,
Speaker 2: so she at least knows the rules, unlike Trump.
Speaker 3: She was like, that's a red card.
Speaker 2: When the Spaniard got sent off, she was like, I
Speaker 2: know that is a red card.
Speaker 1: I have a question.
Speaker 2: I'm really worried about this segment because you know how
Speaker 2: your phone listens to you and then serves you all
Speaker 2: the videos. I feel strongly about this. My question to
Speaker 2: you too, is are you a popper holic. I'm about
Speaker 2: to explain what that is, but I have a feeling
Speaker 2: you are one. I'm a huge oh my god, all
Speaker 2: I just need to reiterate, do not serve me the
Speaker 2: videos I'm about to talk about, do not serve them
Speaker 2: to me. Poppa Hollick is the name for the devotees
Speaker 2: of the gross that is Dr pimple Popper. Sandra Lee.
Speaker 2: Not saying that she's gross, her content is gross. There
Speaker 2: was a big New York Times profile this week about
Speaker 2: Dr pimple Popper. She's a dermatologist. Of course, she's based
Speaker 2: in LA and she makes those videos. You've all seen
Speaker 2: them again my phone. I don't want them of people
Speaker 2: having things squeezed out. And it may have started, it
Speaker 2: may start with a little like entry level blackhead situation,
Speaker 2: but before you know it were into cists, We're into
Speaker 2: all kinds of.
Speaker 4: Like, am why why do you like these videos?
Speaker 3: It's so so good. I was actually really happy to
Speaker 3: see this profile because I've been following doctor pimple Popper
Speaker 3: since like my school days. I would get home from school,
Speaker 3: get on my laptop, my old laptop, and go to
Speaker 3: her YouTube channel and then filter by popularity and watch
Speaker 3: the most viewed pimple popping video she posts, which are
Speaker 3: like the big Gnally ones. I'd go on for about
Speaker 3: like fifteen minutes. I'm not one.
Speaker 2: We're going to get to what it says about you
Speaker 2: as a person, Okay, but just a bit of detail
Speaker 2: about why we're talking about her. What was revealed in
Speaker 2: this article was kind of the scale of her business
Speaker 2: and an empire. Because she's a dermatologist from la She
Speaker 2: still operates there out of this kind of nondescript office.
Speaker 3: People travel to see her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in her office, there's a neon sign in blue
Speaker 2: cursive that demands popperholics you nite.
Speaker 3: Apparently.
Speaker 2: She says that one day, several years into her experiment
Speaker 2: of seeing if people would like to watch these things,
Speaker 2: she posted a video on which she removed an enormous
Speaker 2: blackhead known as a paw of winer. I don't want
Speaker 2: to think about that. People were either disgusted or obsessed,
Speaker 2: but either way, they tagged a friend and take off
Speaker 2: was not instant, the New York Times reports, but it
Speaker 2: was pretty close. The first month she tried to YouTuber,
Speaker 2: she tried to monetize her YouTube videos. In twenty fifteen,
Speaker 2: she made about thirty dollars. Now she makes six figures
Speaker 2: a month easy. What She has seventeen million people following
Speaker 2: her on TikTok. That is more than Beyonce and Britney
Speaker 2: Spears combined, an additional thirteen million watching her on YouTube
Speaker 2: and Instagram.
Speaker 1: So she is killing it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And are these videos just pimples being popped?
Speaker 3: It's like pimples being popped. Black Heads removal, cysts removal,
Speaker 3: so any kind of like body, kind of little spot
Speaker 3: gets removed. She's also she also taught me a lot
Speaker 3: about my own removal processes. So you know, when you
Speaker 3: remove a black head and like the whole thing just
Speaker 3: comes up in one like glorious.
Speaker 4: No, I assume I know nothing, So you're actually not done.
Speaker 3: Because you also have to get the sack out otherwise
Speaker 3: then you'll get another black head.
Speaker 1: I'm worried about. I'm worried about as I say.
Speaker 3: Black head out and then just go for one more
Speaker 3: squeeze and there's like a little white thing that pops
Speaker 3: up after it, and then you're done.
Speaker 1: Where do you stand on poperholics, Amelia? I think I know.
Speaker 4: You are you?
Speaker 1: Are you watching these videos?
Speaker 4: No, I'm watching the World Cup like a normal person.
Speaker 3: I don't Jude beelling and wearing his gardening hats.
Speaker 4: The thing I'm interesting I love Drew Belling. And the
Speaker 4: thing I'm interested in is why we like the gross
Speaker 4: disgusting thing, Like why.
Speaker 3: Are we drawn to that?
Speaker 4: Do you think?
Speaker 3: I think with pimple popping and like all these kind
Speaker 3: of like even earwax removals.
Speaker 4: And I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: About it.
Speaker 4: I don't know if there's there's.
Speaker 3: Like earwax doctors and then they take a little camera
Speaker 3: into ears that they're cleaning out and they remove all
Speaker 3: we see it. But it has to be done in
Speaker 3: a particular way that's satisfying, which means that it has
Speaker 3: to end. The video has to end when everything's cleared out,
Speaker 3: when you know that there's still some things like to
Speaker 3: happen that just like leaves me distress. I'm anxious. I
Speaker 3: feel very like safe when I watch these videos because
Speaker 3: it's like I'm watching something really gross happen and it's
Speaker 3: very pleasing to my eyes, but I know it's not
Speaker 3: actually personally affecting me.
Speaker 2: There is some theories, some scientific theories about it tell
Speaker 2: us so why people love it. Benign masochism is one
Speaker 2: of the words, one of the terms for it, which
Speaker 2: is that you kind of enjoy watching the suffering of
Speaker 2: the person, but you know it because you know it's
Speaker 2: not serious, you know what I mean, Like, you know
Speaker 2: that there is a little bit of pain being inflicted there,
Speaker 2: but it's not it's not a dangerous level of pain,
Speaker 2: so you enjoy that.
Speaker 3: The other else falls into this category. I'm watching tattoo removals. Oh,
Speaker 3: like the laser I guess.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 2: The other theory is our deep seated grooming instinct that
Speaker 2: we all have from evolution, Like the reason why monkeys
Speaker 2: pull things out of each other's hair and stuff is
Speaker 2: that some people have that more than others, the instinct
Speaker 2: to groom. And another was that which I think is
Speaker 2: where you fit in probably is the pleasure of completion, Like,
Speaker 2: here's a problem. Dr Sandra Lee is going to fix
Speaker 2: that problem. We're going to be here at the beginning.
Speaker 2: We're gonna be here at the end. It's sorted, and
Speaker 2: it's nice to be sorted.
Speaker 1: And that.
Speaker 2: There's that, and then the reason why some people hate
Speaker 2: it like me, and maybe I really really hate it.
Speaker 2: If I even see them coming up on my fortube,
Speaker 2: I'm like, soe you page I want to throw my
Speaker 2: phone into a bottle of water. Is I must have
Speaker 2: a high disgust sensitivity, which apparently is a thing that
Speaker 2: is set in you.
Speaker 4: But do you think, like would you have thought that
Speaker 4: about yourself beforehand?
Speaker 2: I'd like, I don't mind, I mean too much information,
Speaker 2: But like like anyone, I quite like squeezing a black head.
Speaker 2: But I've always drawn the line, and you know there
Speaker 2: are people who like squeezing other people's black heads. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like my mom used to chase me around when I
Speaker 2: was a teenager and she'd be like, I'll pay fifty
Speaker 2: p if you let me get it.
Speaker 3: That's amazing. I'm exactly like your mom.
Speaker 2: I'm like, no other people's business. I don't want it
Speaker 2: anywhere near me.
Speaker 3: But don't you like want like when you look at
Speaker 3: someone and you know they have something on their back
Speaker 3: and you just anate with And this is when I
Speaker 3: really had to check myself and about my habits of
Speaker 3: watching these videos. I want to an un date with
Speaker 3: the guy park date getting coffee, sitting in a park
Speaker 3: and without even thinking, I just leant over and squeezed
Speaker 3: a pimple on his side.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 3: I didn't even ask for consent. You did, and he
Speaker 3: was just like oh, And I was like, oh, I
Speaker 3: got it.
Speaker 4: Is the second datepe You got that guy's on your fingers,
Speaker 4: crushed it off on some grass, or you like put
Speaker 4: it back on them. Do you know? I think you
Speaker 4: can also change over the course of your lifetime. We
Speaker 4: were talking before about child free people. I have a
Speaker 4: child free friend who the thing that she cannot get
Speaker 4: over with kids is, you know, when little kids are eating,
Speaker 4: they tend to smear food everywhere, and she is really
Speaker 4: repulsed by that idea of like a little kid's smearing there.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of goo involved in the early years
Speaker 1: if you can't escape.
Speaker 4: And so I wonder if, like also your tolerance can
Speaker 4: kind of ebb and flow depending on where you're at
Speaker 4: in life. Because that would never occur to me to
Speaker 4: be grossed out by that.
Speaker 2: But also it maybe explains why I didn't used to
Speaker 2: mind it as much as I do now.
Speaker 1: Maybe I've reached my tolerance.
Speaker 2: When my kids were little and you're dealing with all
Speaker 2: kinds of things, gooey things that you just have too
Speaker 2: you've got no choice. But now that I don't have
Speaker 2: to do that anymore, I'm just like, absolutely cap absolutely not.
Speaker 2: There's this stuff called Exfoliant, Go for your lives, kids,
Speaker 2: off you.
Speaker 3: Go after the break. The device that's not a smartphone
Speaker 3: that's making us lose a sense of community. Writer markham
Speaker 3: Hyde posted a sub sect about a theory that he
Speaker 3: has on why it feels like we're collectively losing a
Speaker 3: sense of unity. He calls it the air pod effect,
Speaker 3: and he explains how he's noticed more people more often
Speaker 3: than not, in public spaces are either wearing AirPod earphones headphones,
Speaker 3: and in this article he writes about how those devices
Speaker 3: act as a deterrent for spontaneous interactions that we go
Speaker 3: through in day to day life, and he says that
Speaker 3: they act as a way of people people look at
Speaker 3: people who are wearing these earphones and think it's like automatic,
Speaker 3: do not disturb me? So, yes, definitely they are, Amelia.
Speaker 3: Are you a headphones and public kind of person?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am. But this piece really made me question
Speaker 4: what it's doing to me. It had some really interesting,
Speaker 4: actually quite alarming tidbits in it. He quoted a study
Speaker 4: that finds that Americans are speaking less words to each
Speaker 4: other than they used to, and he draws a line
Speaker 4: directly both to the smartphone and then even more to AirPods,
Speaker 4: because basically, between two thousand and five in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 4: the spoken words uttered by the average person fell by
Speaker 4: twenty eight percent. He's and he says, since twenty nineteen
Speaker 4: has gotten even worse because now you've got QR menu
Speaker 4: ordering in restaurants, that's true, you've got at the supermarket,
Speaker 4: you got to do your own checkout now, and air pods.
Speaker 4: Unlike when you used to have the cord headphones. At
Speaker 4: least then you could see, Okay, someone's listening to a song.
Speaker 4: That's fine. But now AirPods are a way of life,
Speaker 4: Like you're not just putting them in to listen to something.
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people just wear them for
Speaker 4: the sake of wearing them, right.
Speaker 3: I one hundred percent. I'm the type of person to
Speaker 3: wear air pods for the sake of wearing them. Why
Speaker 3: Because I like to sometimes be outside and have no one.
Speaker 4: Talked, so it's like a visual buffer. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2: My question about that is, who are you trying to
Speaker 2: avoid talking to you? Because is this like a I
Speaker 2: don't want creepy guys bothering me? Or is this a
Speaker 2: I just don't want interactions of any kind?
Speaker 3: Yeah, interactions of any kind. If I'm going grocery shopping
Speaker 3: and I'm in one of those phases where I'm like,
Speaker 3: I just want to go get my groceries, come home,
Speaker 3: I don't want to talk to anyone. I don't want
Speaker 3: to look at anyone.
Speaker 4: I know that.
Speaker 3: Like I feel safer with my AirPods in because I
Speaker 3: it is like a deterrent, Like people are less likely
Speaker 3: to come up and say hello or like look at you,
Speaker 3: or even just kind of ask you about your day.
Speaker 3: And I there is though, if I do go to
Speaker 3: a grocery shop and I only keep my AirPods in
Speaker 3: if I am going self checkout, but if I am
Speaker 3: talking to someone and someone's serving me, I do take
Speaker 3: them out.
Speaker 4: Often, so I've had this experience, and I'm sure many
Speaker 4: people listening have had the same experience. You go to
Speaker 4: the supermarket, you check out at the machine. The only
Speaker 4: time someone speaks to you is when they asked to
Speaker 4: look inside your bag to check that you haven't shoplifted.
Speaker 4: And I think that's creating like a really toxic dynamic
Speaker 4: because it's like, the only person I've spoken to you
Speaker 4: on this entire outing is checking to see that I'm
Speaker 4: not a criminal. And it's so different from how you
Speaker 4: used to go to the supermarket and have a chat
Speaker 4: with the person who's checking you out and maybe someone
Speaker 4: you talk to someone in the dairy aisle about what
Speaker 4: they think about like this brand of cottage cheese. Like
Speaker 4: everything's changed.
Speaker 2: I find that so interesting because all of it. For
Speaker 2: a start, the idea that the number of words we're
Speaker 2: saying a day is chopping is fascinating because that must
Speaker 2: also be to do with So that's to do with
Speaker 2: this incidental interaction that we're talking about, but it probably
Speaker 2: is also to do with the fact that even when
Speaker 2: we're at home, we're often watching listening, like in putting
Speaker 2: separate to the other people in our home.
Speaker 1: If we live with other people.
Speaker 2: So the very idea that we're saying less is kind
Speaker 2: of fascinating because very often that part of the rise
Speaker 2: of airpod's obviously their great technology blah blah, is attributed
Speaker 2: to the rising popularity of podcasts right. So hey, I'm
Speaker 2: sure there are lots of people who listening to us
Speaker 2: right now in order to avoid talk to someone that
Speaker 2: don't want to talk to And audiobooks. Yeah, but that
Speaker 2: means it's constant input but a lot less output. And
Speaker 2: what does that do to us over time is really interesting.
Speaker 2: I understand that airports can be a really helpful do
Speaker 2: not disturb for neurodiverse people.
Speaker 1: People try to.
Speaker 2: Avoid being harassed, like you know, young women will often say,
Speaker 2: you know that kind of almost toxic interaction of smile
Speaker 2: and like trying to chat you up and stuff. Great
Speaker 2: deterrent for that, buttle all those little interactions in your
Speaker 2: day if you just walk into the food court to
Speaker 2: get noodles, Like, why are you so keen to avoid those?
Speaker 3: Well, because I'm just like I have my agenda. Is
Speaker 3: it about your social battery? Maybe it's my social battery.
Speaker 3: I also think exactly what this article says when now,
Speaker 3: when people do talk to me and it's like a
Speaker 3: stranger and it's a daily interaction. My brain does malfunction,
Speaker 3: like for me sometimes saying like if someone's like good morning,
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, thank you, and then I just like
Speaker 3: my brain doesn't comprehend what other peop people are saying
Speaker 3: to me or why they would be talking to me
Speaker 3: in the first place. I've also noticed it's so different
Speaker 3: depending where you're located. When I go back home to
Speaker 3: visit my parents in the Outer West and I go
Speaker 3: for like a long walk, I notice that every single
Speaker 3: person I walk past, it's like common knowledge within that
Speaker 3: community that you just say good morning, yeah to the
Speaker 3: person I live to for sure. It doesn't happen in
Speaker 3: the city at all.
Speaker 1: Different.
Speaker 3: It's so different, and it's kind of like what you expect.
Speaker 3: If I'm out where my parents are, I feel comfortable
Speaker 3: taking my AirPods out because I know if I was
Speaker 3: to say good morning someone, they'll say it. Back in
Speaker 3: the inner city, I can say good morning someone and
Speaker 3: I get completely blank.
Speaker 4: So part of it is about I'm watching a World
Speaker 4: Cup final please yes'.
Speaker 3: Fear of embarrassment.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that you say that, Amelia, because this morning
Speaker 2: so I was walking. I drove in from from where
Speaker 2: I live today, and then I was walking from apart
Speaker 2: my car to the office, and I was watching the
Speaker 2: World Cup final because it was literally happening in the
Speaker 2: last few minutes, and so I had my AirPods in.
Speaker 3: I was looking at my.
Speaker 1: Phone while I was walking.
Speaker 2: So are a lot of other And the thing that
Speaker 2: was quite nice about that is you could kind of
Speaker 2: look at someone and go, they're watching the football, like,
Speaker 2: and there was something a bit there was some camaraderie there,
Speaker 2: and you almost could look at each other and go
Speaker 2: because connecting with other people is nice and that's exactly
Speaker 2: what we're losing all the time. So I bumped into
Speaker 2: someone I worked with though after the game had finished.
Speaker 2: I bumped into someone I work with. She was wearing
Speaker 2: ear pods. I was wearing air pods. We stopped at
Speaker 2: the traffic lights together and I took my EarPods out
Speaker 2: to say hello to her, and she did the same.
Speaker 2: But she said, do you want to keep talking or
Speaker 2: do you want to put your ear pods back in?
Speaker 2: And that's now like a social contract. Well I said, no,
Speaker 2: let's keep talking.
Speaker 3: But what do you want to do?
Speaker 1: Well, I was happy to.
Speaker 2: But sometimes I would have said, Oh, I really need
Speaker 2: to listen to this. That would be the other my
Speaker 2: excuse for work for work, I really need to listen
Speaker 2: to this.
Speaker 3: But it's kind of sad, isn't it It is?
Speaker 4: I was thinking. Also, this made me think about how
Speaker 4: Apple's ads for their headphones have changed so much, because
Speaker 4: back in two thousand and three, when iPods first came out,
Speaker 4: there was a really iconic ad. It actually featured the
Speaker 4: Australian band Jett song are You Going to Be My Girl?
Speaker 2: Remember?
Speaker 4: And it had a really bright background and it showed
Speaker 4: a person dancing with the white cord of their Apple
Speaker 4: earphone showing. And then you fast forward to last year
Speaker 4: and there was an acclaimed Apple ad that I know
Speaker 4: you were a fan of, Hollywod because you talked about
Speaker 4: on the show, which showed Pedro Pascal walking through city
Speaker 4: streets and it depicted four seasons passing as you walked
Speaker 4: through the streets, not talking to anyone. And I thought,
Speaker 4: we've come a long way in terms of what Apple
Speaker 4: is selling to us, because back in two thousand and three,
Speaker 4: it was like dance joyfully against a bright background with
Speaker 4: your white headphone cord showing, and now it's become you
Speaker 4: two can be like Pedro Pascal and walk through a
Speaker 4: crowded city without having to interact with a single soul.
Speaker 1: You're so right.
Speaker 2: I thought about that ad today because I did like
Speaker 2: it because of Pedro, obviously I'm a fan of his,
Speaker 2: but the thing that AirPods sell you, that is a dream.
Speaker 2: And in Australia, by the way, we have a very
Speaker 2: high take up of AirPods because we are more Apple
Speaker 2: infiltrated than lots of other countries include in the US,
Speaker 2: so apparently seventy five percent of people who will use
Speaker 2: them on their smartphone, which is amazing marketing when you
Speaker 2: think about it, because they're really expensive, they're really inconvenient,
Speaker 2: like very easy to lose. They're actually not a great thing.
Speaker 2: They're actually bad for your years, they're bad for your hearing.
Speaker 2: And yet we love the and I did exactly this
Speaker 2: is I upgraded to the ones that do the noise
Speaker 2: canceling because we all want that isolation. And when I
Speaker 2: watched that Pedro pascalad, I was like, love Pedro, but
Speaker 2: I was like.
Speaker 1: That's kind of sad.
Speaker 3: There's another one.
Speaker 2: I was just TOPI Yeah, a woman walking through New
Speaker 2: York City and she'd whether she had a noise cancelation
Speaker 2: on or off, the city would come to life or
Speaker 2: fade away.
Speaker 3: And I get it, but it is so egom and
Speaker 3: iya point of a city.
Speaker 1: The energy.
Speaker 4: Well, we're all sharing stories from my morning commute here,
Speaker 4: I guess, because it's underscoring how these little advices have
Speaker 4: come to reshape our world. But I was on a
Speaker 4: crowded bus and it occurred to me that in years
Speaker 4: gone by, there would have been much more verbal interaction
Speaker 4: and negotiation around the limited space on the bus, people saying, oh,
Speaker 4: excuse me, Oh you're welcome, that's fine, no worries, sorry,
Speaker 4: Like none of those little words get said anymore. So
Speaker 4: you're all jammed in like sardines, just like you were
Speaker 4: in the past. But back in the past, there was
Speaker 4: this social lubricant working between you all, which was in
Speaker 4: the form of words, basically like apologizing or saying thank you.
Speaker 4: And now we don't have any of that, and I
Speaker 4: think it actually makes us more stressed, because you get
Speaker 4: really mad at someone who's like, you know, blocking the door,
Speaker 4: but you don't say anything to them because you figure
Speaker 4: they probably can't hear you anyway, and then you don't
Speaker 4: get to be gracious to someone and say thank you
Speaker 4: as they like let you pass. We basically assume no
Speaker 4: one can hear us speak anymore.
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 2: We're moving through the world like that. I don't like
Speaker 2: to be judging, but my one etiquete rule, you've got
Speaker 2: to take them out. If you're talking to someone in
Speaker 2: the shop, you just have to, yeah, get high. And
Speaker 2: sometimes I'm busy and I don't own enough hands, and
Speaker 2: I forget, and then I'm like, don't be a dickhead.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 1: I think it's a dickhead move.
Speaker 4: I think. Also the other thing that this article really
Speaker 4: cracked open for me is the idea that an airport,
Speaker 4: much more than a wide headphone, becomes an extension of
Speaker 4: your own body. And this was underscored by the fact
Speaker 4: that apparently they've done studies and they show that people
Speaker 4: are more likely to like someone they hear in a
Speaker 4: podcast if they hear them speaking through their ears rather
Speaker 4: than through a speaker. And it's because if you hear
Speaker 4: them through your ears, they become part of your internal monologue.
Speaker 4: They become part of you, so you're much more likely
Speaker 4: to extend warmths and empathy to them. And if you
Speaker 4: heard them speaker, I have.
Speaker 2: A party out louder is about that because they've got
Speaker 2: us in their heads.
Speaker 4: What a way to end things.
Speaker 1: You're inner monologue is now got this strange northern accent, this.
Speaker 4: Weird transpecific I love that. Also. Now the script called
Speaker 4: for you to say, Holly, thanks out louders for having
Speaker 4: us in your ears with.
Speaker 1: It all the time and your brain out Louders, we
Speaker 1: do love you. I hope you take AirPods out to
Speaker 1: talk to the person you get.
Speaker 4: Yeah, please don't put us back in.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, we'd love to know what your etiquette is about.
Speaker 4: That.
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you've been here
Speaker 2: with us on this Monday. Let's get ready for another week.
Speaker 4: Bye.
Speaker 3: Mamma May acknowledges the traditional owners of the lands on
Speaker 3: which we recorded this podcast.