1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: It's March nineteen seventy nine in southwest Sydney and Helen 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Moore has been put in charge of babysitting her two 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: brothers while her parents enjoy a night out. Only four 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: days ago, her stepbrother, fourteen month old Andrew, was discharged 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: from hospital after being found unresponsive in his cot. Doctors 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: say he narrowly escaped from SIDS Sudden infant death syndrome, 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: but seventeen year old Helen is confident she'll be able 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: to handle the evening alone as she ushers her mum 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: and dad out the door. Later that evening, the thirteen 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: year old brother, Craig hears Helen screaming. He rushes into 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: her bedroom and sees Andrew he's not breathing again. The 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: young boy quickly starts to give the toddler mouse to mouse, 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: while Helen runs to the neighbor's house for help, but 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: it's no use. Andrew is gone. At first, his death 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: is ruled as SIDS, but a trail of death starts 16 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: to follow Helen. By early nineteen eighty, four children have 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: died while being babysat by Helen. Two more have been 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: found unresponsive and only just survived by the age of eighteen, 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: Australia will know Helen as the babysitter Killer. I'm Jimmy 20 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: Bass and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 22 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. More ended up 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: confessing to the murder of three children and the attempted 24 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: murders of two others. Her crimes shocked the country, not 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: just because female serial killers are rare, but because of 26 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: her age when convicted just eighteen. She's back in the 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: news this year because she's been found at the age 28 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: of sixty three, living by a different name on the 29 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: central coast of New South Wales, babysitting children again. 30 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: She served just under fourteen years. 31 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: For her crimes nearly fifty years ago. There's no denying 32 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: that female killers are a media gold mine. Women who 33 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: kill have long fascinated society, and the press has played 34 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: into that, often in ways that seem to criticize and 35 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: chastise them more than their male counterparts. The Australian Institute 36 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: of Criminology found that in the ten years to twenty fourteen, 37 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: women were responsible for just thirteen percent of murder as 38 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: for mass killing events worldwide, figures show just six percent 39 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: are perpetrated by women. It would be amcipis not to 40 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: mention the Victorian case of Aaron Patterson while on this topic. 41 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: In late twenty twenty five, she was convicted of the 42 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: triple murder of three relatives with a lunch containing poisonous mushrooms. 43 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: She was also charged with one count of. 44 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 3: Attempted murder for poisoning Ian Wilkinson, who survived. However, given 45 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 3: the case is still going through the appeals process, we 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 3: will not be discussing it today. Our guest is criminologist 47 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 3: doctor Xanthi Weston, who has written and studied female killers 48 00:02:59,120 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 3: in detail. 49 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: She joins us now doctor's Anthey Mallett, thank you so 50 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: much for joining us on True Crime conversations. If you 51 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: could design a study today around female killers, what unanswered 52 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: questions would be at the top of your list? Oh? 53 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: Hello, thanks for the invitation of joining And what a 54 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: question to open with a study on female serial killers. Well, 55 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: I think what's really interesting about female serial killers is 56 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: that they are often motivated by different things to men, 57 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: and so much of the work we've got is on 58 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: male killers that we kind of assume that women are 59 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: going to be very similar in their psyches, and they're 60 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: actually not. They kill for different reasons. I mean, they 61 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: obviously can be driven by rage and jealousy, etc. Which 62 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: are a lot of male crimes, especially interpersonal crimes within 63 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: the family, intimate crimes. But also, you know, they can 64 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 2: be extremely greedy, They can be very callous and cunning, 65 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: and especially psychopaths. Female psychopaths express very differently to the 66 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: male version, So we kind of assume we understand the 67 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: psyche of a psychopath that may end up killing someone, 68 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: but women can be very different. 69 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: Female killers as a cohort are very rare, female serial 70 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: killers even more rare. How much study has been done 71 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: into those two areas, both here and worldwide. 72 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: Well, certainly less people are killed by women. I mean, 73 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 2: women obviously do kill, but a smaller proportion than men. 74 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 2: We know that. But female serial killers, yes, and mass 75 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: murderer is very very unusual. So it's really difficult to 76 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: study something of which there are few examples. I mean, 77 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: we have quite a few examples of what I would 78 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 2: call black widows, women who have encouraged other people to 79 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: kill on their behalf. They can be extremely manipulating and 80 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: cunning and cruel, and so we've got a few of those, 81 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: but it is really really unusual. So the ones we've 82 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: got are extreme cases, but they are few and far between, 83 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 2: so drawing lines of commonality can be really difficult. 84 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 1: You've dedicated a lot of your time and research to 85 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: women who kill. Why is that? Why is this such 86 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: an area that is of interest to you? 87 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: Oh God, that's a good question too, So have I 88 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 2: won't say who. I have a family member who has 89 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: some very unusual behavior traits. Now, they've never killed anyone, right, 90 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: But as I grew up, I did wonder why they 91 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 2: behaved the way they did, why they treated other people 92 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: the way they did. They did so with impunity, They 93 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: had no empathy or sympathy or remorse, and seemed to 94 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: live off other people, almost like a parasite. And as 95 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 2: I grew up, I was thinking, what is it about 96 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: this person? They enjoyed causing harm to other people, They 97 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 2: enjoyed it when other people were distressed, and they were 98 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: one of those people who likes causing trouble, And I 99 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: was like, what is it about this personality? And then 100 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: I was started to learn about female psychopaths and the 101 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: male psychopaths we're all kind of aware of. We think 102 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 2: of the ivan malats certainly if they're violent, but you 103 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: can get what we call very successful psychopaths, so they 104 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: might be businessmen or pilots or anywhere where there's a 105 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 2: hierarchy of power, and that's what we think of as 106 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: like the male psychopath that very dominant but charismatic, often manipulative. 107 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: But females can often pray on other people and they 108 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 2: have those different traits. They can use emotions against you. 109 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: And so when I started to learn about female psychopaths, 110 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: I was like, that's what it is, that's what she is. 111 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: And then I started to get into trying to understand 112 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 2: when women do kill how it expresses differently, because I 113 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: think a lot of female psychopaths slide under the radar 114 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: because we use the same determinants that we do for men, 115 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: but they're not the same, and so I think they 116 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: kind of slide through because we expect them to express 117 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 2: the same way behaviorally and they don't. 118 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: Broadly speaking, let's get into the nitty gritties of the 119 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: key differences between male killers and female killers. What motives 120 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: are typically different between the genders. 121 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: So men, I mean we've seen it so often. I 122 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: actually work in obviously center now for domestic Family Violence research, 123 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: So a lot of male killings when we're talking within 124 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,679 Speaker 2: the family, et cetera, and a lot of instances every week. 125 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: In fact, sadly, males often kill for rage and jealousy 126 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 2: and control, and that's what we see with domestic violence killings, 127 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: and that may be perpetrated against a partner, not necessarily 128 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: just female. We do see that in homosexual relationships as well, 129 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: Males killing males and on sometimes what we class as 130 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: family annihilated, so they may kill the women and the children, 131 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: and we saw that with Hannah Clark. So men can 132 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: kill for those very emotional reasons, but they can also 133 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: kill other men for the you know, the same reasons, 134 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: you know, taking out a new partner that you know, 135 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: an ex is new partner. Again, that jealousy and rage 136 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: and control. So we see a lot of that. Women 137 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 2: less so they're less controlling and less dominant, certainly less 138 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: violent in that space. But certainly greed is something that 139 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: I've seen with women which you wouldn't necessarily expect, but 140 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: they can be extremely cold. So obviously I'm not talking 141 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: women generally, women who choose to kill, and there can 142 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: be a level of premeditation with that as well. So 143 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: financial gain is something I've seen reasonably commonly. Obviously, some 144 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 2: men kill as a result of greed as well, but 145 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: that's something I've seen kind of commonly, or more commonly 146 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: with women. 147 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: I've seen you say that in essence, men's violence is 148 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: offensive and women's violence is defensive. When you expand on. 149 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 2: That, men will more often instigate the violence and perpetrate 150 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: it against those that they perceive a weaker. So again, 151 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: a lot in that intimate space, So partners, ex partners, 152 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: you know, ex partners are highly at risk if there 153 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: is already some level of domestic violence present, and women 154 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: can often strike out when they're protecting themselves or family, etc. 155 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: So you know, they a woman may be pushed to 156 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 2: violence as a result of that intimate violence, and they 157 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 2: then respond. And again this is very general, so I'm 158 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: not saying that women can never be the protagonist and 159 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: the lead cause of the violence, but generally speaking, that's 160 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 2: not the pattern that we see. 161 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: When something does fall outside of that norm where the 162 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: woman is the protagonist. Someone that comes to mind is 163 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: Catherine Knight, who killed and skinned her husband, and yeah, 164 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: said him to her children, or she tried. 165 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: They didn't eat it. Thank god she had prepared the meals, 166 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 2: that's true. But fortunately, yes, they didn't actually eat that. 167 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: But by all accounts, she was the aggressor in that relationship. 168 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: How do we even analyze someone like that? 169 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: You know, Catherine Knight is an outlier. So, yes, she 170 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: did murder her husband. She stabbed him multiple times, we believe, 171 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: attacked him in the bedroom, stabbed him. He tried to escape, 172 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: was either fell back into the house or or was 173 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 2: pulled back into the house and was stabbed a number 174 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 2: of times, around thirty something times, I think in the 175 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: front and back of his tours. So and then yes, 176 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: extreme violence, you know, decapitated him. His head was found 177 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: for anyone, sorry who's listening, but you know we are 178 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: talking in extreme level of violence. And yeah, how do 179 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: you how do you interpret why somebody would go to 180 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: extreme We have to go all the way back to 181 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 2: Catherine's upbringing. It was incredibly dysfunctional. Her father was violent 182 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: to her mother, sexually violent, and her mother used to 183 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 2: kind of describe these acts to Catherine. Katherine herself was 184 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,599 Speaker 2: victimized as a young child. So there are never excuses 185 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: for these things. But you can't look at somebody who's 186 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: had such a damaged, dysfunctional childhood and expect them to 187 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: grow up and be normal. Now, Catherine expressed violence through 188 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: many relationships, extreme violence through many relationships, And I like 189 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: to think that if somebody were behaving the way Katherine 190 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: were now, that it would be dealt with very differently, 191 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 2: because you know, she had attacked people, she'd crush people's skulls. 192 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: You know, these are people she was in relationships with, 193 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 2: So every red flag was there that she was a 194 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 2: She was sane at the time, though she claimed she 195 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: didn't remember what happened, but her psych evaluation said she 196 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: was sane. She has been diagnosed, I believe, with borderline 197 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: personality disorder, which obviously can impact how somebody has relationships. 198 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: You know, it's very dysfunctional or can lead to very 199 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: dysfunctional relationships. But yeah, she is in the outlier, and 200 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: I think we have to go right back to ground 201 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 2: zero and her childhood to try and understand why she 202 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: developed the violent tendencies that she did. 203 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: Well, like you say that extreme violence is something we 204 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: usually see from male perpetrators. Absolutely, male perpetrators. 205 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and she used weapons. She had carving knives 206 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,599 Speaker 2: at home. So she worked in abatoir and that was 207 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: apparently her ideal job. She moved up to you know, 208 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: the boning process, and she was given set of knives 209 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: which she used to keep in the bedroom. Now, oh gosh, alarm, alarm, right, 210 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: that flag in case she ever needed them. So yeah, 211 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 2: I mean serious red flag. She enjoyed cutting up animals. 212 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: She was extremely extremely violent to her partners, and so yeah, 213 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 2: it's she is a case that is one of those 214 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: extremes that you kind of it's very difficult to understand, 215 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: which is probably why she was a first woman in 216 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: Australia whose case was marked never to be released. So 217 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: when she was sentenced for that crime, the judge felt 218 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: she was so dangerous that she should never be eligible 219 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: for parole. And that still stands, and it's happened very 220 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: seldomly in Australia. 221 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: So if those kinds of methods that she used are 222 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: very unusual for we what methods of murder do women 223 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: typically steer towards. 224 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, see Catherine use knives that was her go to, 225 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 2: or a frying pan in a couple of instances. Actually, yeah, 226 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: and it wasn't even just a partner she physically harmed 227 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: she she harmed a significant number of people. But yeah, 228 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: she was very proactive how I would describe it in 229 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 2: her violence, whereas women tend to choose methods such as 230 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: poisoning that are more hands off. And I don't know 231 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 2: whether that's psychological or whether actually because generally speaking, if 232 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: a woman wants to or harm, especially a male, there's 233 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: going to be a size disparity there often, and there's 234 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 2: strength disparity, so you know, your go to weapon may 235 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: not be a knife because they're more likely to be 236 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: able to disarm you, whereas something like poison there's that distance. 237 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 2: So men tend to use methods strangulation guns if they 238 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: can get hold of them, but knives, whereas women tend 239 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: to be more hands off. Poison is not an uncommon method, 240 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: or if you're a black widow manipulating someone else into 241 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: committing the violence for you. 242 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: The other outlier I want to talk about is female 243 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: serial killers. We do actually have a few in Australia, 244 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: and when I was going back through the archives, there 245 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: are quite a few there that I didn't recognize the 246 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: names of. We were just talking off air. One of 247 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: the names that popped up is Sarah Macin. Can you 248 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: tell us a bit about that case because people might 249 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: not know her name. 250 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: Sarah and John Macin were actually baby farmers back in 251 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: the eighteen nineties, so I can you can see why 252 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: people wouldn't necessarily know about this. Now it's not going 253 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: to be on the news, they're not going to be 254 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: probably listening to documentaries about it. Although my colleague Nite 255 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: and WATSONO did do an episode on our podcast on 256 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 2: baby farmers recently because they are such an interesting group. 257 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: So in essence, you know, back in the eighteen nineties, 258 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: it wasn't acceptable to have babies out of marriage, so 259 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: a lot of young girls were getting you know, getting 260 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: pregnant and what do you do when you have a baby, 261 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: and it's so socially, you know, there's a stigma around that. 262 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: So there used to be these baby farmers. They would 263 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: take in these jitimate children. They would feed them, sometimes 264 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: just look after them like babysitting, but sometimes actually take 265 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: permanent care of them. And obviously the mothers would be 266 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: paying for this care and they would expect the baby 267 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: to be looked after, but the makings weren't looking after 268 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: these babies. They were in fact killing them and burying 269 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: them in the back gardens of the properties that they 270 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 2: were renting. And I think in that case the motive 271 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: was purely. 272 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: Financial, like you said, greed greed. 273 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: You know, they took in these babies, the mothers thought 274 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: they were being cared for, but they didn't actually want 275 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: to feed them, right, They didn't want to resource these children, 276 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: so sadly they killed them. 277 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass. 278 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with criminal psychologist doctor Xanthe Western. Up next, 279 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: we dive into the babysitter killer case and the psychology 280 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: and motives behind Helen Moore's murders. Another name that has 281 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: actually been in the news recently is Helen Moore. So 282 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: I the listeners will have heard me talking about Helen 283 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: at the start of this podcast, but they might not 284 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: have heard of her either. Her name back in the 285 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: day on the newspapers was the babysitter killer, and she's 286 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: back in the news this year because kind of some 287 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: reporters have found her living on the central coast of 288 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: New South Wales and she's once again babysitting children. What 289 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: do you make of this case and of the resurgence 290 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: of her in the headlines. 291 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: Well, this one kind of blew my mind slightly because 292 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 2: I hadn't heard of her. So we're talking, which is. 293 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: Wild for a criminologist that's based in Australia. 294 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 2: Wild for a criminologis based in Australia who's written a 295 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 2: whole book or men who killed children that they care for. 296 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: And obviously she was a quote babysitter, but a number 297 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: of the people that she killed, you know, one of 298 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: whom was her brother, another was a cousin. You know, 299 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: these are people close to her. And I still have 300 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 2: questions over her younger brother, Andrew, who died age two, 301 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 2: who was the first death associated kind of with Helen 302 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: Moore in that sense she was his older sister. She 303 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 2: was caring for him at the time of his death. 304 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: Now that death was listed as natural causes, and according 305 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 2: to Helen, was the reason she went on to start 306 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 2: murdering other children. I have my serious doubts about that 307 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 2: because the trauma that she allegedly went through as a 308 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: result of her little brother's death. But you know, she 309 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: was she was quite prolific. She killed a number of children. 310 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 2: She then admitted it. She showed no remorse from what 311 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 2: I can tell, and she's even confessed to her schoolfriend 312 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 2: that she killed Andrew. So this blew my mind that 313 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 2: a woman who is a mass murderer of children, including 314 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 2: those within her family, I didn't know about her. And 315 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: more worrying. Yeah, she's out, she's living on you know, 316 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: the north coast of New South Wales and has access 317 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 2: to children. 318 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 319 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: I think she's changed her name, so she's now anonymous, 320 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 2: and that causes me significant concern that somebody out there now, 321 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: with that history and that lack of remorse, has access 322 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 2: to children. 323 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: The thing that shocks me is that she was eighteen 324 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: when she was convicted. For such a young person to 325 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: have such yes, to have that level of. 326 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 2: Violence, absolutely, and she started murdering. It's seventeen, so she 327 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: you know, she murdered three children and there were further attempts. 328 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: This is all within a very short period of time, 329 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 2: kind of between seventeen and eighteen years. Some people began 330 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: to suspect something was very wrong because these children around 331 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,719 Speaker 2: her that she was looking after kept dying or almost dying. 332 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: And Yeah, that level of violence in such a young person, 333 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 2: and I just wonder what treatment did she receive when 334 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 2: she was incarcerated her rehabilitation, Do we know now that 335 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: she isn't a danger? And if so, how can we 336 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: be sure? How can the community be sure that the 337 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: children that she has access to are safe. 338 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: The one kind of area of murder that I don't 339 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: hear women being involved in as much is those random killings. 340 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: So what I mean by that is, you know, the 341 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: death of Ayam Masawi in Melbourne who was murdered while 342 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: walking home after getting off the bus, Or Sarah Everard 343 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: in the UK, who was picked up by that dodgy 344 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: cop who just happened to see her on the side 345 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: of the road. Or Jill mar Is, a big name 346 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: that people will remember she was stalked on her way 347 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: home from the part Accordingly, yeah, exactly the amount of 348 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: names we have. I mean, obviously stranger killings are rare, 349 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: but they do happen quite a bit with male perpetrators. 350 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: Do we ever see females doing that? 351 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 2: Not really, So we're talking the situational. Somebody may be 352 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 2: out and they may be hunting, as you might, you know, 353 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: to put it, so we're talking about generally speaking, a 354 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: male perpetrator who is out looking Clairemont killings as well. 355 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: So these are stranger killings where somebody may be looking 356 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: for a type or a certain situation. They may be 357 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 2: backpacking or waiting a bus stop, or in other ways 358 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 2: of vulnerable. So they're very situational but not individual to 359 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: the person. Yeah, we don't see that generally with women. 360 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: If somebody is abducted and murdered, I'm trying to think 361 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: of a case where a woman has done that, and 362 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 2: I actually can't think of anything to be interested to 363 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 2: know if the listeners can think of any examples where 364 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: a woman has just chosen to kill for the shit, 365 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: the thrill of it. Yeah, that doesn't really happen. 366 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: We did do a case just recently Lily from PERF, 367 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,479 Speaker 1: but that was still a planned case where she just 368 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: loved murder. I loved serial killers and kind of decided 369 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: she wanted to kill someone before the age of twenty 370 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: five and used, you know, found a victim. But that's 371 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: still not hunting on the street deciding you're going to 372 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: take something like it's it's slightly different. It's more that 373 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: like premeditation that we talked about before, whereas you don't 374 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: hear about women just oh, there's someone, I'm going to 375 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: take them and I'm going to kill them. 376 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: With the case of Toy accordingly, he was obviously massive 377 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: case in Queensland up Nick Hans a few years ago 378 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, she was murdered. She was just walking on 379 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 2: the beach with her dog and Rwinda seeing who's now 380 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: being found guilty of her murder, happened across her. I mean, 381 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: there's some indication that, you know, he was kind of 382 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: watching people on the beach. He did admit being there 383 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: and what he was doing there. You know, there are 384 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,239 Speaker 2: still some questions around that idea. Get the sense that 385 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,719 Speaker 2: maybe he may have been spying on young girls at 386 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 2: the beach or whatever. But that was purely situational, right, 387 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 2: She just happened to be on the beach. Maybe he 388 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: didn't intend to kill her. I don't know. But yet 389 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 2: we don't see that generally with women. I think as 390 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: soon as you know, a situation like that occurs and 391 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: Toya's body was found, they're looking for a man, you know, 392 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: they're not They're not looking for a woman who happens across, 393 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: especially another woman, and just kills her in the heat 394 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: of the moment. You know, that's that's not something that 395 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: women tend to do. If they're going to kill in 396 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: the heat of the moment, there's a reason for it. 397 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: Either it's within the home, it's an argument, is some 398 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 2: sort of emotionally driven or they may have some there 399 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: may be drugs involved, or some mental health condition. They 400 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: may be in the middle of a schizophrenic break for example. 401 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 2: And I'm not demonizing schizophrenics at all, but we do 402 00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: know that some some serious, unmedicated mental health conditions can 403 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: lead to violence. Now, normally speaking, schizophrenics are much more 404 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: likely to harm themselves than other people, but there are 405 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: those occasions when that does happen. 406 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: Well, let's go further into mental health, because it is 407 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: a factor in both male and female killings. But how 408 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: much of a factor is it when it comes to 409 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: women who kill. 410 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 2: It depends on the kinds of cases we're talking about. So, 411 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: you know, with the makings, I think they probably had 412 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: personality disorders. They may have been psychopathic, for example, in 413 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: that even if they didn't enjoy the violence, are not 414 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: necessarily sadistic. So sadistic people enjoy causing physical harm to others. 415 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 2: The psychopastis don't have any remorse or guilt or shame. 416 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: They don't feel love, so harming somebody else if it 417 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 2: meets their need is easier to them because they're not 418 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: restricted by those emotions that we would feel. So I 419 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: think instead of mental health conditions, I think they're probably 420 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: in more behavioral conditions like this psychopathy that would basically 421 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: allow people to behave in that way. But ultimately we 422 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: have seen cases where somebody has had a serious mental 423 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 2: health condition, they haven't been medicated and that has led 424 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 2: them to become violent, but they are outliers. 425 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: Well, you've written a book called Mothers Who Murder, which 426 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: is a topic that people love. They are particularly villainized, 427 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: But I would say that mental health plays a role 428 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: in that area. Mothers who Murder? What's the case that 429 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: comes to mind the most when I say that. 430 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: Well, there were a couple in that book, but I 431 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: know that one you're interested in is Rachel Fitzner. Now, 432 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 2: she would certainly fall into that mental health category. This 433 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: was a young woman who killed her son, Dean Shillingsworth, 434 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 2: who was a toddler. And when you look at Rachel's background, 435 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: again not making excuses, she had incredibly troubled, dysfunctional background. 436 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: She's claimed her father's sexually offended against her, but that 437 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: is unproven. She's cognitively impaired, so she has a very 438 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: low IQ. She also has a personality disorder, and the 439 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 2: relationship with her ex partner, Dean's father, was also violent. 440 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 2: There was allegations of substance abuse on both sides, and 441 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 2: she said that basically every time she looked at Dean, 442 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 2: she saw his father, and so she in essence tortured 443 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 2: that little boy throughout his very short life. He was abused, 444 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 2: he was neglected, and eventually she snapped and shook him 445 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: because she was so frustrated with him. He sadly had 446 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 2: a seizure, and I won't go into what happened after 447 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: that is really quite unpleasant. But when you look at 448 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 2: Rachel's background, I just remember thinking, how did social services 449 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 2: and social services, no doubt, let that family down. The 450 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 2: child was at risk, there was a risk report in 451 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: the hospital, and she was giving birth to him because 452 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: of the interaction between the father and Rachel Fitzner. So 453 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: I just looked at that and thought, how on earth 454 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: could that woman who's damaged, who's cognitively impaired, she cannot 455 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 2: have a healthy relationship with these children, and she was 456 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: even calling social services asking them to take him away, 457 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 2: and they didn't respond. 458 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: Which is really telling, isn't it That she was reaching 459 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: out for help. 460 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 2: She knew she has I believe it's borderline personality disorder. 461 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 2: She was diagnosed with, so a really strong fear of 462 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 2: kind of abandonment and loss, and yet you can't let go. 463 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: So she was asking social services to take Dean away 464 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: because she knew she didn't want him there, that he 465 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: was triggering her, and yet she couldn't give him up 466 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: at the same time. And so this is an expression 467 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 2: of what she was going through psychologically and emotionally. She 468 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 2: just couldn't cope and she snapped. So even though she 469 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: was neglecting him, I don't believe she understood the extent 470 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 2: to which she was neglecting him. And I don't think 471 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 2: there was premeditation in the murder. I think in the moment, 472 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: she just couldn't cope and she didn't know what to 473 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 2: do afterwards. So she is an example of someone who 474 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: needed support. The children should not have been with her, 475 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: they were at risk, and so I think the community 476 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: let them down, and social services let that family down, 477 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 2: and the most heartbreaking thing is Dean was actually in 478 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: the former custom of his grandmother at the time, and 479 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: Dean should have been with her, but Rachel had kept 480 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: him after a visit and they were trying to get 481 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 2: the grandmother was trying to get him back through the courts, 482 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 2: and that boy was loved. If he'd been with his grandmother, 483 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: he would have been safe if social services had acted sooner. 484 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 2: There was no reason for that boy to be harmed. 485 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 2: And you know, that is just such a heartbreaking story. 486 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 2: I hope lessons will learned, but certainly mental health, cognitive 487 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: impairment huge huge impacts in that case, and Dean would 488 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: be alive if she had had more support. 489 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: You know that's stat of thirteen percent of women are 490 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: female murderers. How many of them would be parents or 491 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: mothers killing children. 492 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: It does happen. Around around twenty seven children are killed 493 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: per year in Australia by a caregiver and around half 494 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: are the mothers and or half the females and half males, 495 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 2: often mothers. 496 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: That's really interesting that it's half half. 497 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually more equal than you might think. We 498 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 2: tend to think of the males. Yeah, as I said, 499 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 2: the one case that obviously jumps to mine is the 500 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: Hannah Clark case where Rowan Baxter killed Hannah and her 501 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: three or their three children before suiciding. So we tend 502 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: to think if it's something males do to punish women, 503 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: but certainly women do do it. I've seen a number 504 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: of cases of that. Generally speaking, there is a mental 505 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: health condition in there, and there's often social isolation and 506 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 2: all these other factors going on as well. Dysfunctional childhood's 507 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: often abuse in relationships. Sometimes women kill their children because 508 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: actually can't cope anymore and don't want to leave them behind. 509 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: So there's a really misguided altruistic element to it. Sometimes 510 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 2: they I mean, I've seen one case where a woman 511 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: kill the children to punish the husband. That's the case 512 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: of Donna Fitchett. She killed her two boys. She was 513 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,479 Speaker 2: recognized as a good mother up until that point, she 514 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 2: was a nurse, and she murdered her two boys to 515 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: punish her husband. 516 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: Which is usually what you would see from a male 517 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: killer of children. That jealousy and that like just so 518 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: you can't have them. 519 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: She just wanted to punish them. Well, she knew she 520 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: was going to go to prison, and she yeah, she 521 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 2: wanted to cause him as much harm as she could. 522 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: So she killed the boys. She drugged them, then she 523 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 2: suffocated them. She bathed them, she dressed them. She put 524 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: them in their beds, so when he got home from work, 525 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 2: they looked like they were sleeping. 526 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. When I think about the stories of 527 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: female killers that have killed children and I compare them 528 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: to the headlines I see about men who kill I 529 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: would argue that the women are demonized more by society. 530 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: Would you agree with me on that? 531 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: I would. I think that a mother who's accused of 532 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: harming a child, especially their own child, is seen as 533 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 2: the worst, the worst. We don't want to believe it, right, 534 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 2: because mothers are meant to be nurturers, you know, they 535 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: raise children, they protect children, They don't harm children. You know, 536 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: when you think of stranger danger and you think of 537 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: people who do intentionally harm and abduct children, we think 538 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 2: of men. So when a woman is accused and ultimately 539 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: found guilty, or even during that kind of whole legal process, 540 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: I think if people do believe they've harmed a child, 541 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: the reaction, emotional reaction is so much stronger. So if 542 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: you think of you know, historical cases, you know, Kathleen Folbig, 543 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 2: for example. 544 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: Who has now been exonerated. 545 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 2: You know, she didn't react the way that people wanted 546 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 2: her to. Actually wasn't crying in the stand, and so 547 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: she was considered, you know, Australia's worst female serial killer 548 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: for twenty years, and a number of us were asking 549 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 2: questions saying, you know, this doesn't this doesn't seem right. Yeah, 550 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: when I was saying that back in two thousand and 551 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: fourteen when my book came out, because I did a 552 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 2: chapter on Catherine that book, and I raised doubts about 553 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: the case then, and the emails I got, mostly from women, 554 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: threatening emails you're defending a baby killer. And all I 555 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: was doing was saying, I don't think there's evidence beyond 556 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 2: reason or doubt that this woman is guilty of these crimes, 557 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: and yeah, I mean serious threats of violence. 558 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: After the break, Zazi tells us about the women she 559 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: believes shouldn't still be behind bars and the psychology behind 560 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: Kelly Lane's case. She's not the first and she won't 561 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: be the last woman that we've seen that has been 562 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: exonerated or has been found to be not guilty of 563 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: these crimes of killing their child. The biggest one is 564 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: Linda Chamberlain baby Issaria Dingo has my baby if people 565 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: are unfamiliar, but you know, most people know that story. 566 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: She was also exonerated of murder. So I guess what 567 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is we demonize women in the headlines, 568 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: But why are these women being put behind bars and 569 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: then they haven't done it? What's wrong with our society 570 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: and our justice system? And is there something at play 571 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: there or is there just as many men that are 572 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: exonerated as well. It's just that I'm so focused on 573 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: these cases. 574 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think that when a woman is accused of 575 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: harming her own child, like Linda Chamberlain, like fo Big, 576 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: there is a certainly a sexual bias, there a gender bias. 577 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 2: So you know, I don't remember the media pack images 578 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 2: of Lindy from the original ones from her walking to court, 579 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 2: but I've seen them, right, I've studied the case, and 580 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 2: I started my book Mother's Murder with Lindy's case because 581 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: I wanted people to read the rest of the cases 582 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: with an open mind, because I you know, if you 583 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: talked about Kathleen Folbig at the time, everyone believed she 584 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: was guilty. Another one I raised questions about in that book, 585 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: was Kelly Lane. All three women, if you look at them, 586 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 2: none of them behaved as they the public wanted them to. 587 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 2: They didn't cry, they weren't, you know, a mess on 588 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: the stand, And so I think we judge them and 589 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 2: think they're not behaving as we would expect, and therefore 590 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 2: they're guilty. And then there's nothing you know that isn't 591 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: awful enough. You know, people had seen them hung, drawn 592 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: and quarted if they've got the chance. But of the 593 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 2: three examples I just gave you, two have been exonerated. Yeah, 594 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: so you know, but people were I'm so sure that 595 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: Lindy was guilty, even though the evidence and the timeline 596 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: never worked. In any reality that we exist in, it 597 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 2: should never have gone to court, nor should Kathleen Folbig's 598 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 2: case should never have gone to court. And I believe 599 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 2: the same for Kelly Lang too. So are we looking 600 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 2: at you know, is Kelly going to be the next 601 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 2: potential recognized miscaracter justice? Well? I hope so. But I 602 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 2: just wish we'd stop getting it wrong in the first place. 603 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: You've been very public about the fact that you think 604 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: Kelly Lane should be exonerated, that you don't think that 605 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: the evidence is there. What has been the feedback to 606 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: you from that, I'm imagining you would have fielded quite 607 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: a bit of criticism. 608 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. But at the end of 609 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 2: the day, my background, I'm a forensic scientist. I look 610 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 2: at facts and I look at the balance of probabilities 611 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 2: and whether the evidence exists or not. And in that case, 612 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 2: I don't think it does. I think it was an 613 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: emotional reaction to the fact that Teagan can't be found. 614 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: So Anthony Wheeley, who was the residing judge in that case, 615 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 2: has so spoken publicly to say that he doesn't think 616 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 2: that Kelly Lane should be in prison. Now that is extraordinary. 617 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 2: That is they do not speak out. And the fact 618 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: that he has done that. You know, that case I 619 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 2: think is one. It was his last case, and I 620 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 2: think it's one that will stay with him because I 621 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: don't think he believes Kelly should be in prison for 622 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 2: that crime. And so, you know, I don't care whether 623 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 2: people are critical of my opinion. It's what it is 624 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to be silenced because other people 625 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 2: don't agree with it. 626 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: Are there any other women that have murdered that are 627 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: currently behind bars that you don't think should be there. 628 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 2: I think the main one at the moment is Kelly 629 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 2: and obviously Kath. I mean I got to know Kath 630 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 2: when after the book came out. Both representatives of Kath 631 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 2: and Kelly contacted me and I've seen them by a 632 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 2: spent time with them both. You know Kat's campaign over 633 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 2: twenty years. I never thought that we'd actually get to 634 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 2: the end and she would be released. I remember exactly 635 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 2: where I was when I got the call that she 636 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: was going to be released, and it all happened so fast. 637 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 2: When it did happen with very little warning, and I 638 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 2: think that was intentional by the justice system because they 639 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 2: didn't want the whole media pack arriving outside the jail, 640 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 2: so it was all very fast. But I think those 641 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 2: are the main two that I my whole career, since 642 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 2: I've been in Australia, I've looked at and I thought 643 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 2: this is wrong. Yeah. 644 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: I want to touch again on media coverage because it 645 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: is such a big part of this. It's how the 646 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: public sees these cases unfolding. Do you think we're getting 647 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: better at removing the misogyny and removing the crude nicknames 648 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: and the way that women are treated in the headlines 649 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: in comparison to male murderers, or are we just in 650 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 1: the same spot. 651 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 2: I think it would depend on the case. So I 652 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 2: think hopefully next time a woman is accused of murdering 653 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 2: a child, I like to think that we may be 654 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 2: a little more open minded, a little more circumspect, a 655 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 2: little less judgmental. You know, if they walk to court 656 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 2: and they are holding their head high and they're being stoic, 657 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean they don't have emotions. It doesn't mean 658 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 2: that they're guilty. And so I like to think we 659 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 2: may have learned lessons from the past. But we all 660 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 2: love to judge, you know, we all love to jump 661 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 2: to those conclusions. I remember, it's a man. But when 662 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 2: Terence Kelly abducted Cleo Smith a few years ago, the 663 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 2: little girl and wa very unusual case, and she was 664 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 2: found physically safe after eighteen days, And that was an 665 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 2: incredible outlier, because if a child is taken by a stranger, 666 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 2: which it quickly became evident she had been, it was 667 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 2: just again situational. He came across her, he opened that 668 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 2: tent they were camping. It was the mother's stepfather and 669 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 2: a baby in a tent. He opened the tent. I 670 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 2: think he was going to rob them, and then he 671 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 2: saw the child and he just took her in the moment, 672 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,760 Speaker 2: not premeditated and when sadly, if a child is taken 673 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 2: by a stranger, then they need to be found within 674 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: three hours, otherwise they're likely to be deceased. That's generally 675 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,240 Speaker 2: speaking how long a young child will be kept alive. 676 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 2: So the police know they've got two to three hours 677 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 2: to find that child. Otherwise the odds are really not 678 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 2: in their favor. Eighteen days. It blew my mind right 679 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 2: that she'd been found physically unharmed. But the interesting thing 680 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 2: about Terrence Kelly and I remember I talked to Nat 681 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 2: bar on Channel seven when he was sentenced and he 682 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 2: didn't get the maximum sentence, and she was horrified that 683 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 2: he hadn't got a longer sentence. I think he got 684 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 2: ten years, but you could fact check me on that. 685 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 2: For the abduption of Cleosmith, and what I try to 686 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 2: explain to Nat was that the judge has to take 687 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: into account so many factors, aggravating factors which increase the 688 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 2: length of sentence within the boundaries for that offense, and 689 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 2: mitigating so things that bring it down. Now, whilst we 690 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,479 Speaker 2: all understand that what he did, Clearo was awful and 691 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 2: not making excuses, I'd actually seen the full outcome, the 692 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 2: full sentencing remarks. I'd seen what he'd been diagnosed with. 693 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 2: And he was a walking DSM, which is the psychological 694 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 2: manual of disorders, right, So he has so many personality disorders. 695 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 2: He has cognitive impairment. He probably has fetal alcohol spectrum 696 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 2: disorder because his mother was an alcoholic. She was giving 697 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: him alcohol in his baby bottle. Oh my goodness, he 698 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 2: was sexually abused when he was a kid, physically abused. Oh, 699 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 2: if I went into his history, you'd be horrified at 700 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 2: what that boy had been through. Young man had been through. 701 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 2: And I genuinely think he took Cleosmith because he wanted 702 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 2: a child to look after. There wasn't that sexual element there. 703 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 2: It wasn't what we all expected. And I tried to 704 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: explain this to Nat, who was I understood that horrified 705 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 2: that he wasn't given the full sentence. But what I'm 706 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 2: saying is the picture was much more complicated than the 707 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 2: majority of people knew and understood. And if you'd seen 708 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 2: his background again, like Rachel Fitzner. There was nowhere on 709 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: earth he could understand the implications of what he was 710 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 2: doing or the seriousness. And so even though what he 711 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 2: did was awful, I really did feel sorry for him. 712 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 2: He received a sentence of thirteen years with a minimum 713 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 2: of eleven without parole, which doesn't seem long for what 714 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 2: he did, and it's certainly not the maximum sentence for 715 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 2: what he did. But the judge had to balance so 716 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 2: many factors in that reasoning that is very difficult for 717 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 2: those who haven't seen all of that information to understand. 718 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: I think it's a really important reminder telling that story 719 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: that when you do see a headline you know, babysit 720 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: a killer seen, or you know, mother murders child, like 721 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: all of those headlines, there are so much detail that 722 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: the public isn't privy to that is behind court doors 723 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: or so it's very easy to make sweeping remarks or 724 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: like you say, with Kelly Lane or you know, fall big, 725 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: damn them to hell, all kind of thing. But when 726 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 1: the public does isn't privy to everything, they don't see 727 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: all the detail. And we really do need to keep 728 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 1: an open mind when it comes to these really serious 729 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: cases of murder. 730 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally agree. And you know, as a criminologist, I 731 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 2: always say to my students, what we're not trying to 732 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 2: do is make excuses. We're trying to understand. Rarely have 733 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 2: I seen a case where I think somebody is just 734 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 2: born evil? 735 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: Really? 736 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 2: No, very rare. Yeah, I mean sometimes you do see 737 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 2: a situation where you think, regardless of what environment they 738 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 2: were brought up in, you know, no matter how positive 739 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 2: and balanced and how caring the parents were, this person 740 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 2: was always going to go on and cause harm. 741 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting you say that's anthea because your or husband, 742 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: your colleague in what Monroe, who is a. 743 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 2: Psychologist better half. 744 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: Yes, he we did an episode with him inside the 745 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: mind of Australia's youngest killer, who was the acronym SLD, 746 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: and he thinks he was born evil. Would you agree 747 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: with that? 748 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 2: Oh, so this is an interesting case. Obviously, not that 749 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,839 Speaker 2: many details are availablet this case. We're only talking a 750 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 2: thirteen year old boy who abducted his friend's sister from 751 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 2: her bedroom, stabbed to death, right premeditated, allegedly over a 752 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,879 Speaker 2: computer game, with some sort of argument, you know, a 753 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 2: stupid school a scoopid childhood argument. You know, I would 754 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 2: always bow to Tim's not always. Actually we do argue 755 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 2: about stuff in a very respectful way. We do argue 756 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 2: about stuff. But yes, I mean, certainly, I think some 757 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 2: people are born evil. I think, you know, people who 758 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 2: are committing this level of violence very young. There's certainly 759 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 2: certainly some questions to be raised there when it's a premeditated, 760 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 2: extremely violent crime. Ivan malap he was, you know, killing 761 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 2: animals as a child. The two killers of James Bulger 762 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 2: in the UK, they were only ten years old when 763 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:15,439 Speaker 2: they abducted James Bulger premeditated. He was the second child 764 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 2: they tried to abduct that day from a shopping center. 765 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 2: I remember those videos of watching those two boys while 766 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,319 Speaker 2: doing that toddler away. I will never forget, and you know, 767 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 2: I won't go into what they did to James, but 768 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 2: they planned that it was based on a horror movie 769 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 2: they'd seen. They tortured that boy, and I believe that 770 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 2: one of them was also born evil. I think there 771 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,720 Speaker 2: was a ringleader, and I think that person will always 772 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,320 Speaker 2: be a danger. And so I will defer to Tim 773 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 2: on SLD and I'm certainly not going to disagree with 774 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 2: him that just because somebody is a child that it 775 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 2: means that they can't have those incredibly dangerous traits expressed 776 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 2: at very young ages ten thirteen years. 777 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: It's interesting though, that all the examples we've used a 778 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: male not female. 779 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I can't think of names, but I 780 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 2: can think of a case where a young girl did 781 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,359 Speaker 2: kill a couple of other children. She was very young 782 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 2: and has said the names escape me. Be interested in 783 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 2: having your listeners know. So she killed a couple of 784 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,399 Speaker 2: neighborhood children, but it is unusual. It is unusual, and 785 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:26,799 Speaker 2: she was from a very damaged family. So some Yeah, 786 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 2: I think some kids, potentially, or some people who obviously 787 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 2: start as children, you know, can be born evil, but 788 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 2: rest assured they are very few and far between. 789 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,279 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about rehabilitation. Do you think 790 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,280 Speaker 1: there is a difference between male rehabilitation and female rehabilitation. 791 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,280 Speaker 1: Are we more likely to see it from a certain gender. 792 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 2: Or That's an interesting question. It depends entirely on the individual, 793 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,439 Speaker 2: I think. So it depends on exactly what we're trying 794 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,280 Speaker 2: to achieve through that rehabilitation. Certainly we know that younger 795 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 2: people it's easier to rehabilitate, but it depends on the environment. 796 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,280 Speaker 2: You know, some really young children who've been indoctrinated into 797 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 2: really radicalized for example, can be very difficult to rehabilitate. 798 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,720 Speaker 2: You know, we're looking at the Isis brides at the moment, 799 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 2: and my biggest concern is the children. Yeah, in that circumstance, 800 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 2: but you know, what has their life been and how 801 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 2: radicalized are they? Are they in fact radicalized I imagine they are, 802 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,279 Speaker 2: and are they then a danger if they come back 803 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 2: to Australia. How do you underdo that? So I think 804 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 2: it's less about sex based differences at that point and 805 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:42,319 Speaker 2: more about that individual's psychological makeup and the environment in 806 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:43,439 Speaker 2: which they've been. 807 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,759 Speaker 1: Next time our listeners see a murder case involving an 808 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 1: alleged female perpetrateder, is there anything that you want them 809 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: to look out for? Keep in mind any media tricks 810 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 1: for them to see through. 811 00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,240 Speaker 2: Just keep in mind there's probably more to the story 812 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 2: the meat the eye. So whether we're talking a female 813 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,720 Speaker 2: victim or offender, there's always more going on. So one 814 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 2: I mean, as I said, I work in the center 815 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 2: of domestic family violence. On my head is in that 816 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,399 Speaker 2: space sadly a lot, and whenever I see a case 817 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 2: where especially a woman has been murdered, and we're talking 818 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 2: every few days in Australia by a partner or ex partner. 819 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,720 Speaker 2: Sometimes the police will say there's no history of domestic 820 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 2: family violence in this case, and I think, yes, there is. 821 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 2: It may not be a formal history, it may not 822 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 2: have been reported to the police, but somebody knows. Somebody 823 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,240 Speaker 2: in that family or in her friends set, or somebody knows. 824 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 2: So there's always more to the story than the sixty 825 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 2: minute or sixty second grab that's on the news. And 826 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 2: what I would ask people to remember as well is, 827 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 2: you know, they'll see the news tonight and something awful 828 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,879 Speaker 2: have happened, and then it will pass out of their consciousness, 829 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,879 Speaker 2: but that awful thing is going to stay with that 830 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 2: family forever. If somebody's been murdered or whenever, there's a 831 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 2: level of violence that stays with that family. And people 832 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 2: love gossiping online theorizing, just remember that there are people 833 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,799 Speaker 2: in that story. It's not just something on the news. 834 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 2: It's not the most recent podcast you've been listening to. 835 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 2: These are people's lives. And just to be cautious about 836 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 2: what you say online because sometimes these people read it 837 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 2: and sometimes and it can cause harm, so just a 838 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 2: word of warning to be a little more circumspect. 839 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: Thank you to doctor x Anthony for joining us on 840 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: this episode. You can find a link to her podcast 841 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,319 Speaker 1: with Tim Watson, Munro, Motive and Method at the link 842 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: in our show notes. If you want to see visuals 843 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: from this episode, head over to our Instagram page at 844 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,920 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations, and for in depth case explainers, follow 845 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: us on TikTok under the same name.