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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma mea podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Quickie. Today we're looking into a new vaccine that

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Speaker 1: could dramatically shake up the numbers of Australians impacted by

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Speaker 1: skin cancer. Training your body to hunt down and destroy

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Speaker 1: cancer cells. But before we find out more about this

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Speaker 1: melanoma buster, here's the latest from the Quikie newsroom. Thursday

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Speaker 1: June twenty, Police have tracked down and arrested a man

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Speaker 1: who went on the run after allegedly shooting two people

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Speaker 1: in the Queensland city of Mackay. The thirty one year

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Speaker 1: old was taken into custody outside a fast food restaurant

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Speaker 1: hours after the incident, where a thirty four year old

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Speaker 1: woman who'd been driven to a home in South MacKaye

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Speaker 1: was approached by a man while she was still in

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Speaker 1: the car, who then opened fire, hitting the woman. Two

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Speaker 1: young teenagers who were also in the vehicle ran to

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Speaker 1: a nearby house, while a man in his sixties came

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Speaker 1: to the woman's aid and was shot in the chest.

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Speaker 1: The woman died at the scene, but the man remains

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Speaker 1: in hospital in a serious but stable condition. Police say

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Speaker 1: they don't know if the women and two men are

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Speaker 1: known to each other, but they believe they all live

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Speaker 1: in close proximity. Opposition leader Peter Dutton has come under

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Speaker 1: fire for not including any costing in his plan to

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Speaker 1: build seven new nuclear power sites across Australia and for

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Speaker 1: predicting it could be achieved by twenty thirty five, many

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Speaker 1: experts saying it's just not possible. The sites nominated for

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Speaker 1: nuclear plants are all former coal fired power station locations

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Speaker 1: like loy Yang in Victoria, Callide and Terong in Queensland,

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Speaker 1: Mount Piper at Lithgow in Central West, New South Wales

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Speaker 1: and Laddell in the New South Wales Hunter Valley. Small

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Speaker 1: modular reactors would also be built at Northern Power Station

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Speaker 1: in Portugusta and South Australia and Mudja Power Stations southeast

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Speaker 1: of Perth. Mister Dutton mentioned that the type of reactor

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Speaker 1: they're considering would be the Westinghouse AP one thousand reactor,

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Speaker 1: which Curtin University Sustainable Engineering Group are so. Professor Liam

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Speaker 1: Wagner says are consistently late in their bill times and

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Speaker 1: come in over budget, saying it would essentially be like

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Speaker 1: ripping up one hundred dollar bills. Other experts say the

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Speaker 1: claim that nuclear power would make electricity prices cheaper was

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Speaker 1: not backed by evidence from anywhere else in the developed world.

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Speaker 1: A lack of competition is being blamed for shoppers in

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Speaker 1: Tasmania and the Northern Territory paying more for their grocery

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Speaker 1: bill each week. Research from consumer group Choice found that

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Speaker 1: of the major supermarket chains, Aldi has the lowest per

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Speaker 1: basket price, the average of fourteen common household items at

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Speaker 1: Aldi costing on average fifty one dollars fifty one, compared

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Speaker 1: to Woolly's which is sixty eight dollars fifty eight, and

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Speaker 1: Coal's sixty nine dollars thirty three. The report pointing to

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Speaker 1: the lack of Aldi's stores in Tasmania and the NT

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Speaker 1: as factors in higher grocery prices. The federal government has

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Speaker 1: given Choice more than one million dollars in funding to

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Speaker 1: carry out these reports over the next three years, Competition

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Speaker 1: Minister Andrew Lee saying it would put pressure on suit

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Speaker 1: market giants to lower their prices. Russian President Vladimir Putin

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Speaker 1: and North Korean leader Kim Jong un have taken turns

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Speaker 1: driving each other around in a Russian built limousine after

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Speaker 1: the Kremlin gifted one to Kim on Putin's visit to

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Speaker 1: his country. It's the first time Putin has headed to

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Speaker 1: Pyongyang in twenty four years. The driving pr stunt coming

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Speaker 1: after the duo signed a deal that included a mutual

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Speaker 1: defense pledge, agreeing to come to each other's aid if

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Speaker 1: they're ever shown aggression by a foreign power. One of

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Speaker 1: Russia's most significant moves in Asia for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and one that Kim says amounts to an alliance. Kim

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Speaker 1: is reportedly a big luxury car fan, owning many already,

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Speaker 1: including a Rolls Royce Phantom, which many believe was probably

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Speaker 1: smuggled into the country. With a ban on the export

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Speaker 1: of luxury goods to North Korea, Putin gifted the North

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Speaker 1: Korean leader with the same model of limousine that he's

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Speaker 1: driven around in when he's home in Russia. That's what's

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Speaker 1: happening in the world today. Next, could a jab end

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Speaker 1: Australia's unhealthy relationship with skin cancer? And what does that

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Speaker 1: mean for us? Being some safe into the future. In

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, melanoma accounted for eleven percent of all

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Speaker 1: cancer cases in Australia. That's around eighteen thousand, two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty seven of us nearly eleven thousand men and

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Speaker 1: almost eight thousand women finding out that they had a

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Speaker 1: cancerous skin issue that needed to be treated. Of those people,

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Speaker 1: it's estimated that thirteen hundred and fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Of them will die.

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Speaker 1: Australia has the highest melanoma rates in the world, but

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Speaker 1: a recent medical breakthrough might just see the number of

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Speaker 1: us surviving it grow. First, though, what's it like to

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Speaker 1: be on the receiving end of a melanoma diagnosis. When

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Speaker 1: Katie was twenty six, she decided to get her skin checked.

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Speaker 3: So I'm originally from the UK, where skin checks aren't

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Speaker 3: really a normal habit, But then since gamesterist Astralia, I

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Speaker 3: had a few friends who'd been dealing with melanoma issues

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Speaker 3: or scares themselves, and so I thought I might as

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Speaker 3: well go get a skin check and get the all clear,

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Speaker 3: and then it's a job done, ticked off.

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Speaker 2: It's not exactly how it ends up going.

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Speaker 1: Her GP referred her to a dermatologist who found two

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Speaker 1: areas of concern on her skin.

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Speaker 3: They took a biopsy from what I thought was like

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Speaker 3: a freckle, but it obviously wasn't from both my left

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Speaker 3: boob and my left cheeks, so clearly I've been laying

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Speaker 3: on one side in the sun. If anything, I was

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Speaker 3: more worried about the one on my boob. But it

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Speaker 3: turns out that I actually had melanoma.

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Speaker 1: In my faith, Katie researched her options to have the

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Speaker 1: melanoma removed and opted to go private to get it

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Speaker 1: out sooner. Rather than put herself on a wait list.

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Speaker 3: To make it cheaper, I opted for not being put

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Speaker 3: under or having it done in hospital, because then it

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Speaker 3: cut like a couple ground off the price. So I

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Speaker 3: actually had my surgery done in the equivalent of a

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Speaker 3: dentist's chair, with a light painkiller and a boatload of

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Speaker 3: local anesthetic in my face.

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Speaker 1: The procedure was a strange experience, and while she was

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Speaker 1: relieved to get the cancer out, she knew it would

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Speaker 1: leave behind a pretty stark reminder.

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Speaker 3: The whole surgery was like an hour and a bit

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Speaker 3: of just like poking and prodding. I couldn't feel cuts

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Speaker 3: exactly because I had local anesthetic in it felt like

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Speaker 3: he was moving my face around with wooden spoons, like

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Speaker 3: it was a really weird, like push and pull feel.

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Speaker 2: It was all fine and dandy in the end.

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Speaker 3: It was just a bit of a grim process, and

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Speaker 3: although I was scared I had cancer growing in my face, I.

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Speaker 2: Wanted it gone. He also couldn't really tell me what.

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Speaker 3: Size the scar was going to be because of where

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Speaker 3: it was on my cheek. When you make the first incision,

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Speaker 3: it kind of dictates whether you're going to have one

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Speaker 3: that goes like up and down your face or left

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Speaker 3: and right on your face.

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Speaker 2: So it turned out to be.

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Speaker 3: Pretty piraty in the end, which I grew to love.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, it was a pretty massive cut.

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Speaker 1: Getting a cancer cut out from anywhere in your body

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Speaker 1: is a tough experience. Katie asking the one question everybody

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Speaker 1: does as soon as it was.

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Speaker 2: All over, and I was like, is it all gone?

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Speaker 2: Did you get it all?

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Speaker 3: And they can't really know for sure because in part

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Speaker 3: of the surgery they take more samples and send that

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Speaker 3: off for testing, but they go much further and wider

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Speaker 3: than they think they're going to need to to make

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Speaker 3: sure that they get everything out.

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Speaker 2: So he was pretty confident that we'd all got it.

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Speaker 3: But the thing that I was freaking out about was

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Speaker 3: because the dermatologists had told me when I first got diagnosed.

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Speaker 3: She was like, it can be years, months, weeks, days,

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Speaker 3: minutes for something that's surface level to sink deeper and

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Speaker 3: cause havoc elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Now that the cancer is out and she's been told

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Speaker 1: they got it all, Katie knows it now she's in

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Speaker 1: a group of people who are at very high risk

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Speaker 1: of the cancer returning.

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Speaker 3: They said that it's high in my skin type. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: I'm very pale, but because I've had it, they are

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Speaker 3: more diligent, So I think I'm still at the same

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Speaker 3: risk level as I was before I had my first

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Speaker 3: bout of it, but it's more likely to be caught

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Speaker 3: now because I get tested so much more frequently, which

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Speaker 3: I'm kind of glad for. Like I think if they

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Speaker 3: told me that I was back to just yearly skin checks,

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Speaker 3: I would be going more often. You just freak out

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Speaker 3: about it way more once you've had it. It's not

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Speaker 3: my feeling.

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Speaker 1: Since Katie's experience, which happened at the height of the

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Speaker 1: COVID pandemic. Maderna, the company who created one of the

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen vaccines, has now revealed that they are in

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Speaker 1: the human trial phase of a melanoma vaccine. A drug

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Speaker 1: that paired with an immunotherapy drug has been found to

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Speaker 1: reduce the risk of cancer reoccurrence or death by forty

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Speaker 1: nine percent over three years. So what does a vaccine

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Speaker 1: for melanoma do? Is it something we'll all line up

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Speaker 1: for COVID jab style or is this more of a

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Speaker 1: treatment than a preventative? Professor Georgina Long is a comedical

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Speaker 1: director of the Melanoma Institute Australia and the University of Sydney.

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Speaker 4: Georgina.

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Speaker 1: This melanoma vaccine we've been hearing about is an mRNA

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Speaker 1: vaccine similar to what was used to create the COVID vaccine.

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Speaker 1: Would the acceleration in the science around creating the COVID

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Speaker 1: version during the pandemic have helped get this melanoma vaccine

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Speaker 1: to where it is now.

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Speaker 4: Actually it's the reverse, but it does tell us that

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Speaker 4: things we discover.

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Speaker 5: In one area can help another.

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Speaker 4: So this melanoma vaccine, it's a personalized melanoma vaccine.

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Speaker 5: It is for people who already have melanoma.

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Speaker 4: Because we create the vaccine based on the melanoma that

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Speaker 4: a person has already developed, and it's to prevent the

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Speaker 4: melanoma from coming back after we have surgically removed the melanoma.

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Speaker 4: But that study was actually started way before COVID. Maderna,

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Speaker 4: which is the company that's doing this particular mRNA personalized vaccine,

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Speaker 4: there are others, was working in cancer, and then when

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Speaker 4: COVID came along, many of the mRNA companies who were

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Speaker 4: doing this research pivoted and used that technology for COVID.

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Speaker 2: We got through COVID through the.

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Speaker 4: Other side, and then we've come back to working in cancer.

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Speaker 4: So the mRNA vaccines were first really tested in cancer,

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Speaker 4: and then we're utilized in COVID, which was marvelous. And

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Speaker 4: this is how medicine works. We try to cross fertilize.

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Speaker 1: Why do we call it a vaccine, because, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: it's not to prevent you from ever developing a melanoma,

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Speaker 1: it's to treat someone who already has it. Why do

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Speaker 1: we call it a vaccine rather than a treatment.

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Speaker 4: The concept of vaccine to the lay person are the

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Speaker 4: vaccines that we get in childhood and that we understand,

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Speaker 4: you know, trying to prevent infectious diseases, so mass months rebella.

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Speaker 2: And they're very effective.

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Speaker 4: I mean, some of our grandparents and great grandparents can

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Speaker 4: tell you what it was like living with polio.

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Speaker 2: It was horrible.

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Speaker 4: Infection to get and when the polio vaccine came out

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Speaker 4: in early twentieth century, it just revolutionized life for.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people.

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Speaker 4: So we think of it as a prevention for infection,

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Speaker 4: but the word vaccine is really about mounting an immune response.

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Speaker 4: So when we think of it with measles months rebella, polio,

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Speaker 4: what we're doing is we're exposing the human body to

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Speaker 4: a little bit of the actual infection to the body

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Speaker 4: so that our body can mount an immune response so

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Speaker 4: that if we actually do come in contact with the infection,

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Speaker 4: our immune system has already seen it and then can

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Speaker 4: eradicate it before it becomes a problem for us and

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Speaker 4: makes us sick. So that's the concept of vaccine. But

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Speaker 4: what we're trying to do with cancer is we're not

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Speaker 4: preventing the melanoma. In this case, we're taking someone who

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Speaker 4: already has the melanoma, but we're mounting an immune response

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Speaker 4: against that melanoma so that that stops that melanoma from

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Speaker 4: coming back. So the word vaccine is very broad, and

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Speaker 4: what we're really talking about is training the human body

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Speaker 4: to make an immune response against something.

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Speaker 1: So this isn't permission for us to throw out the

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Speaker 1: sunscreen because we can get a job to prevent us

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Speaker 1: from getting melanoma. This is treating it once you actually

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Speaker 1: have it.

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Speaker 4: Correct And that's an important point, Claire. I would prefer

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Speaker 4: to put myself and every other melanomoologist, as in an

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Speaker 4: expert in melanoma or oncologist like myself out of a job.

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Speaker 4: I'd prefer not to have to deal with the melanoma

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Speaker 4: in the first place. So absolutely be aware that in

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Speaker 4: this country, Australia, we have the highest incidence of melanoma

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Speaker 4: in the world because of our beautiful climate. The majority

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Speaker 4: of melanomas are caused by the sun, and we can

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Speaker 4: prevent it by being sun safe.

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Speaker 1: When we're talking about a vaccine being in human trials

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Speaker 1: at that point in its research, how long does it

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Speaker 1: normally take for something else at human trial level to

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Speaker 1: actually be something that can be utilized by us the public.

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Speaker 4: That can take a variable amount of time, I mean

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Speaker 4: the fastest we've done, to be honest, a trial from

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Speaker 4: what we call first in humans to being available is

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Speaker 4: about four five years in cancer, but on average it

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Speaker 4: can take anywhere between.

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Speaker 5: Five to twelve years.

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Speaker 4: The steps are, first you've got all the research before

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Speaker 4: it even hits humans. Then you test it in animals,

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Speaker 4: and then it gets tested first in humans, where we're

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Speaker 4: testing tiny doses and we escalate the dose slowly, so

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Speaker 4: we're not actually at the first in humans point looking

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Speaker 4: for whether it works in the cancer.

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Speaker 2: We're just checking whether it's safe in humans.

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Speaker 4: We then do what we call a phase two trial,

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Speaker 4: and that's looking for efficacy, whether it actually works or

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Speaker 4: that they are a signal that it can control the cancer.

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Speaker 4: And then the third step is what we call phase

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Speaker 4: three randomized trials, where we compare the new novel treatment

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Speaker 4: to our current standard. And that's where patients are randomized

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Speaker 4: to either the novel treatment or the standard. And it

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Speaker 4: is about the patients on the trial. So when a

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Speaker 4: novel treatment is being tested and if we start to

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Speaker 4: see the signals in that even phase one, that early

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Speaker 4: part the safety signal, but we do start seeing an

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Speaker 4: anti cancer effect and then we prove it in the

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Speaker 4: phase two. Often the phase three trial will happen very rapidly.

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Speaker 1: Now, the numbers that we are reading about this melanoma

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Speaker 1: vaccine where it is currently ad in its human trials,

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Speaker 1: all seem very positive and that the numbers are looking

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Speaker 1: good for reducing the survival rate for melanoma and the

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Speaker 1: reoccurren survival rate for melanoma. But you've recently been at

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Speaker 1: a conference where you were hearing about other trials that

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Speaker 1: are actually even more successful than this current vaccine at

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Speaker 1: human trial.

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Speaker 4: We certainly have, and in cancer it's a multi pronged

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Speaker 4: approach because not every drug treatment we develop is going

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Speaker 4: to work in everybody. We know that already from the

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Speaker 4: data we have, but just to close off the vaccine story,

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Speaker 4: so we did a phase two trial which was very exciting.

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Speaker 5: That's where you're looking for that signal.

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Speaker 4: This is for the mRNA vaccine, and we presented updated

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Speaker 4: results at our recent very large in fact, it's the

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Speaker 4: largest cancer conference we have each year, and it shows

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Speaker 4: the benefit of adding the personalized vaccine over our current

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Speaker 4: standard immune treatment which we use after we've removed the

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Speaker 4: melanoma to try and mop up any escaped tiny melanoma

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Speaker 4: cancer cells helps prevent that melanoma coming back.

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Speaker 5: A near fifty percent reduction. So that's that data.

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Speaker 4: We're now doing what we call that phase three trial

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Speaker 4: and we've almost finished that. So then at this conference

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Speaker 4: we had another trial called the Nadina trial.

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Speaker 5: This is really really exciting.

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Speaker 4: In fact, it's the first what we call phase three Again,

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Speaker 4: it's that.

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Speaker 2: End part of the development of the.

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Speaker 4: Drug, which showed when we use combination immunotherapy simply two

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Speaker 4: doses before surgery and then remove the tumor, we found

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Speaker 4: we could reduce the chance of the melanoma coming back

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Speaker 4: by a near seventy percent when we compared it to

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Speaker 4: the standard, which is surgery first and then followed by

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Speaker 4: a year of drug therapy.

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Speaker 1: Katie says she would always want to have a cancer

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Speaker 1: removed by a surgeon to know that it's actually gone.

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Speaker 1: That says she'd be keen to explore the vaccine in

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Speaker 1: partnership in the treatment afterward, especially if it decreases her

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Speaker 1: risk of it coming back again. But before that, she

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Speaker 1: has this message for anyone who takes their skin for grunted.

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Speaker 2: Don't be an idiot.

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Speaker 3: I definitely was when I first got to Australia, like

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Speaker 3: I would burn in the sun because I would just

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Speaker 3: you know, spend a little bit too long out on

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Speaker 3: the beach. It wasn't really for the sake of a tan,

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Speaker 3: because that's something that's like physically impossible for me to achieve.

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Speaker 2: It's just so not worth it.

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Speaker 3: Your skin is hurting when you're damaging it in the sun.

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Speaker 2: He skin's doing You're solid every day. Don't be an

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Speaker 2: asshole to it back.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in today. Friends. Hey guess what this month,

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Speaker 1: Mamma Mia turned seventeen. I know, only one more year two,

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Speaker 1: we're officially a grown up. Well, we already have the

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Speaker 1: gift of you being here with us and listening to

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Speaker 1: this show. So instead we're giving you a pressie as

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Speaker 1: a thank you for being on the ride with us.

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Speaker 1: Right now, you can get twenty dollars off a yearly

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Speaker 1: mum mey a subscription with the code TQ birthday. The

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Speaker 1: offer is valid till the end of June and you

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Speaker 1: can find all the details in the show notes. Enjoy

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Speaker 1: the Quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy and our

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Speaker 1: senior producer Taylor Strano, with audio production by Tom Lyin.