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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. On a quiet

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Speaker 1: street in Sydney in two thousand and one, twenty year

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Speaker 1: old Sef Gonzales would return to his family home to

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Speaker 1: find his father, mother, and sister all dead, stabbed, beaten,

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Speaker 1: and strangled. In his panicked call to Tribouleau, he would

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Speaker 1: mistakenly believe that they'd all been shot. There was so

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Speaker 1: much blood at the scene he couldn't initially tell what

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Speaker 1: had really happened to his family. What actually occurred in

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Speaker 1: the Gonzalez family home that day would be followed by

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Speaker 1: a nearly year long investigation that would see accusations of

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Speaker 1: dodgy business deals, hit men, gangland, retaliation, bribery, revenge, and poison.

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Speaker 1: But while this sounds like the plot line for a

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Speaker 1: season of Underbelly, in reality, the truth about the Gonzales

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Speaker 1: family murders was much simpler, much more sinister, and much

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Speaker 1: closer to home. I'm Claire Murphy and this is True

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Speaker 1: Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes

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Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them.

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Speaker 1: When New South Wales police stepped into the investigation into

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Speaker 1: the murder of Teddy Gonzales, his wife, loev and daughter

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Speaker 1: Claudine in the Sydney suburb of North Ryde in July

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Speaker 1: two thousand and one. They would find the only surviving

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Speaker 1: family member, Sef, seemingly devastated over the brutal debts of

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Speaker 1: his father, mother, and sister. He'd been out with a

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Speaker 1: friend on the night his family died, captured on CCTV

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Speaker 1: footage out at dinner and then at an arcade playing

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Speaker 1: video games. He arrived home to the confrontational scene, telling

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Speaker 1: police that he'd try to revive them using CPR. He

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Speaker 1: said he also tended to the wounds on his sister's body,

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Speaker 1: But why was there only a tiny bit of blood

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Speaker 1: on his clothing. Sef also said that he wasn't home

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Speaker 1: that afternoon. Why was his distinct green Ford Fiesta in

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Speaker 1: the driveway, Who were the men Sef had seen running

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Speaker 1: from the house, and was the racist graffiti on a

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Speaker 1: wall inside the home the real reason his family was targeted.

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Speaker 1: With all these questions adding up, investigators had to unravel

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Speaker 1: the Gonzales family murders with a nearly twelve months investigation

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Speaker 1: using tactics that would normally be used in organized crime investigations.

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Speaker 1: So what did the undercover operatives and bug phones discover

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Speaker 1: and why would one statement from Seph make his auntie

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Speaker 1: finally realize what went down that day. Nick Caldas has

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Speaker 1: had a long career with the New South Wales Police.

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Speaker 1: Arriving from Egypt as a child, he would grow up

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Speaker 1: wanting to be a police officer. At age twenty one,

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Speaker 1: that became his reality, working as a hostage negotiator and

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Speaker 1: an undercover cop before becoming one of the most senior

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Speaker 1: officers here in Australia as the New South Wales Deputy Commissioner.

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Speaker 1: During his time on the force, he led some of

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Speaker 1: New South Wales's biggest criminal investigations, from the murder of

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Speaker 1: MP John Newman to the disappearance of Samountha Knight. He

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Speaker 1: would also oversee the investigation into the murder of the

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Speaker 1: Gonzales family. Could the baby face surviving member of the

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Speaker 1: Gonzales family really have killed his entire family? He sat

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Speaker 1: down with us to remember his time on the force

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Speaker 1: and explain how they finally caught the real killer of

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Speaker 1: Teddy Leeuver and clothing Gonzales. So you join the New

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Speaker 1: South Wales Police at the tender age of twenty four,

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Speaker 1: but you've grown up on the force during what would

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Speaker 1: be quite a tumultuous time for New South Wales Police.

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Speaker 1: There's been a fair bit of scandal which we've seen

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Speaker 1: play out on TV shows across Australia in recent years.

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Speaker 1: What was it like for you as a young officer

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Speaker 1: being surrounded by that.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I was surrounded by controversy or corruption,

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Speaker 2: and I think on by and large, I think probably

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Speaker 2: ninety something percent of police in New South Wales went

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Speaker 2: out their work and we're doing a good job. Was

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Speaker 2: a minority obviously that was up to no good and

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Speaker 2: that all came out later on, But I didn't think

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Speaker 2: it was visible to anyway. Men and people who are

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Speaker 2: doing bad things, corrupt things that discuss it. That It's

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Speaker 2: not something that comes out on a daily basis in

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Speaker 2: the meal room.

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Speaker 1: So that I'm sitting in the lunch room going, hey,

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Speaker 1: how's about this bridebite just received?

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Speaker 3: No no, no.

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Speaker 2: I mean those who are up to no good would

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Speaker 2: talk to others who are up to no good. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I my strong sense and belief is that it was

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Speaker 2: a very small minority, but they obviously tainted everybody else

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Speaker 2: with that stench.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me how one ends up as a

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Speaker 1: hostage negotiator?

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Speaker 3: Sure, you have to apply.

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Speaker 2: Obviously you have to have a certain number of years

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Speaker 2: and I can't remember, but you certainly have to have

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Speaker 2: experience as a police officer before they take you. In

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Speaker 2: the metropolitan area, they tend to go for detectives, because

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Speaker 2: detectives are not if you're in uniform, you have a

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Speaker 2: shift and you're on the truck, and if an incident

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Speaker 2: happens and you get taken off the truck, obviously you've

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Speaker 2: got a shortage and stuff. Then on that shift. But

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Speaker 2: detectives you can put whatever statements you're taking or interviews

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Speaker 2: you're doing or whatever, and go to a siege or

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Speaker 2: whatever incidents has occurred. So they tend to gravitate towards detectives.

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Speaker 2: In the country, they tend to do that. They're not

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Speaker 2: as fussy. You have to apply. You have to have

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Speaker 2: people who will give your references to say this person

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Speaker 2: is a good communicator, he connects with people well, and

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Speaker 2: so on. So you're a detective, you have the time

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Speaker 2: and then you have to go through a fairly strenuous

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Speaker 2: selection process. In particular, it includes a lot of psychological

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Speaker 2: testing to make sure that you're not someone who's going

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Speaker 2: to fly off the handle. And the motto is that

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Speaker 2: if you can't control yourself, how are you going to

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Speaker 2: control anyone else. So you go through a two week

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Speaker 2: course and you can fail, but if you pass, you

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Speaker 2: go on a team, and there's a team of fourth

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Speaker 2: the Negasiators, and it's pretty much your way across the

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Speaker 2: Western world, the Indians speaking world, at least, there's a

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Speaker 2: team of four usually, so there's a team leader, the

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Speaker 2: primary who primary negastiat who does all the talking, the

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Speaker 2: secondary who sticks with and backs up and takes notes

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Speaker 2: for the primary, and then the gopher as they call it,

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Speaker 2: which is the starting point. If you come on a team,

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Speaker 2: you usually start as a gopher. You get the coffee.

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Speaker 2: You go back and forth between the team leader and

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Speaker 2: so on, and then negotiat us and the eventually you

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Speaker 2: go from gopher to secondary to first and then if

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Speaker 2: you're lucky, you get the team leader.

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Speaker 3: I was lucky.

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Speaker 2: I got the team leader, but I had a lot

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Speaker 2: of years as a primary, which is good. The other

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Speaker 2: thing is you're not on call all the time because

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Speaker 2: that would obviously be draining. So there's usually five or

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Speaker 2: six and I think there's more now teams, and so

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Speaker 2: every fifth or sixth week, your team is on call

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Speaker 2: for that week and you have to be on standby.

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Speaker 2: In those days, we had pages. I don't know where

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Speaker 2: the young kids today know what pages are, but.

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Speaker 1: This I think maybe drug dealers do, but not so many.

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Speaker 1: Just average people though.

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Speaker 2: But your pager would go off to contact the duty

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Speaker 2: Operations inspector and you'd get writing instructions from wherever you

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Speaker 2: are about where you are, and then it's blue lights

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Speaker 2: and siren to get to a siege or whatever.

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Speaker 3: It is that they need you to go to.

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Speaker 1: We are going to focus in on the Gonzales murders shortly,

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Speaker 1: but other than that case, what are some of the

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Speaker 1: other high profile cases that you ended up working on

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Speaker 1: in New South Wales.

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Speaker 3: Of course there's quite a few. So I had about

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Speaker 3: a dozen years and the homicide squad.

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Speaker 2: In the last four or so I was actually the commander,

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Speaker 2: and I just clarify that I was not the officer

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Speaker 2: in charge of the Gonzales case. I was the quander

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Speaker 2: of the homicide squad and therefore was briefed and consulted

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Speaker 2: and we discussed the lines of investigation and so on.

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Speaker 2: The officer in charge who did a very good job

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Speaker 2: as a detective sergeant at that stage. He's now Chief

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Speaker 2: Superintendent Mick she who's legendary homicide detective.

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Speaker 3: He's done a lot of really good work.

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Speaker 2: Some of the other cases, probably the most prominent one

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Speaker 2: that sticks out in my mind is the murder of

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Speaker 2: John Newman, the member of Parliament nineteen ninety four. I

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Speaker 2: started off as one of the team on it, but

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Speaker 2: then eventually a short time later I became the commander

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Speaker 2: of it and I stuck with it obviously after that,

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Speaker 2: and it was a seven year investigation between murder and conviction,

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Speaker 2: and it's been torturous, I have to say so. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: John Newman was killed by a political opponent who's now

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Speaker 2: been convicted and sentenced to life released, a fellow called

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Speaker 2: fum Can. We had a series of hearings at the

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Speaker 2: Crime Commission where we grilled people. Basically, he had approached

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Speaker 2: a number of criminal groups to do the murder who had.

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Speaker 1: Rejected the offer, so essentially like looking for hit man, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And we managed to get those people who were approached

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Speaker 2: who had rejected and not done anything to roll as

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Speaker 2: they say and actually tell us what happened and then

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Speaker 2: give evidence of that. Later on, we tracked his movements

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Speaker 2: on the mobile phone. We probably one of the first

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Speaker 2: cases to investigate using mobile phone data ninety four. It

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Speaker 2: was revolutionary and we proved that he was at the

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Speaker 2: scene of the murder at the time of the murder,

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Speaker 2: and then later on he goes to Voyager Point footbridge

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Speaker 2: in George's River and he makes a number of course

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Speaker 2: from there an attempt to alibi himself after the murder,

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Speaker 2: and drops the gun into the river. We dredged the

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Speaker 2: river sometime later and found the gun and it was

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Speaker 2: matched ballistically. We had the hearings that the crime commissioned.

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Speaker 2: Then we had a kurenter's inquest because the DPP didn't

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Speaker 2: feel we had enoughter charge, and then we had a

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Speaker 2: committal hearing. Then we had three Supreme Court trials. One

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Speaker 2: was aboarded, one was a hung jury eleven to one,

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Speaker 2: and the third time he was convicted. The other guys

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Speaker 2: involved were acquitted. That was a hard fought one. It

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Speaker 2: was very much under the intense glare of media and

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Speaker 2: public attention.

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Speaker 1: You would think after you leave the New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Police Force you would live a much quieter, sedate life.

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Speaker 1: But that seems that is not in your DNA because

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Speaker 1: you've done so many things. You've led investigations into chemical

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Speaker 1: weapons use in Syria, you did an independent review of

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Speaker 1: the christ Church shootings. How do you think these roles

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Speaker 1: after leaving the police force have shaped you? And that

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Speaker 1: whole perspective on global justice and accountability.

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Speaker 3: That notes for others to judge.

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Speaker 2: But I had a bit of a policy, if you

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Speaker 2: like that, if something came up and I thought it

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Speaker 2: was worthwhile, I found it difficult to say. No. I

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Speaker 2: probably was not ready and I'm probably not quite ready

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Speaker 2: yet to sit at home in my pajamas.

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Speaker 3: I might get to that, but I'm not there. And

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Speaker 3: obviously the thing that took.

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Speaker 2: Up three years of my life was the Royal Commission

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Speaker 2: into Defense and Veteran Suicide, which was I think quite

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Speaker 2: a It was certainly a noble cause and I'm honored

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Speaker 2: that I was asked to serve in that role. But

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Speaker 2: a lot of the roles you've said, and I was

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Speaker 2: also the Director of Internal Overside in UN the United

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Speaker 2: Nations Relief Works Agency, which is the United Nations agency

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Speaker 2: that deals with all the Palestine refugee issues in five

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Speaker 2: countries eleven On, Syria, Jordan, Gaza, and the West Bank.

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Speaker 2: And I had offices and staff in each of the locations,

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Speaker 2: and we lived in Jordan for three years headquarters.

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Speaker 3: Well, I carried that out.

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Speaker 2: If something comes up and I think I can do

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Speaker 2: some good in it, and I'm not going to stuff

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Speaker 2: it up, you know, like Mace Cops.

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Speaker 3: I operate on the basis of buy it off more

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Speaker 3: than you can chew and.

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Speaker 1: Chew like hell m which then leads you to write

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Speaker 1: an entire book on top of all of that too.

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Speaker 4: So you still have not sat still for a minute, have.

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Speaker 3: You not quite mad?

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Speaker 2: The book was a torture us brasis as well, where

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Speaker 2: I have to say, I've not done this before. I'm

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Speaker 2: certainly not an author. What I've There's a few things

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Speaker 2: that sort of convinced me to do it. One is

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Speaker 2: an encouragement from friends in particularly Gary Jubilin. He's written

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Speaker 2: a couple of books himself and we worked together in

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Speaker 2: homicide for many many years. But the other fellow who

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Speaker 2: sort of convinced me to do this is a fellow

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Speaker 2: called Bob Bear. It's Baer. He's an American fellow x CIA.

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Speaker 2: He was in the CIA and living on throughout the

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Speaker 2: Lebanese Civil War. He's certainly got some stories to tell.

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Speaker 2: So he read his book. It's called The Company We Keep.

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Speaker 2: In America, they tend to refer collocally to the CIA

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Speaker 2: as the Company. And it's a really good book, The

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Speaker 2: Company We Keep.

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Speaker 3: He dedicated his book.

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Speaker 2: To his kids, and he opens the book up by saying,

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Speaker 2: I hope this is this goes some way towards explaining

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Speaker 2: where the hell I was.

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Speaker 3: And he said to me, you do it. You don't

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Speaker 3: do it for yourself.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you do it for your family, your kids, grandkids,

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Speaker 2: great grandkids. I mean, we've been on a bit of

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Speaker 2: a journey out of Upper Egypt in the south to Cairo,

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Speaker 2: and then from Cairo to Sydney, and then for me,

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Speaker 2: I've gone to a lot of other places obviously, and

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Speaker 2: I felt it would be good to have a record

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Speaker 2: of that for the family and for the kids, and

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Speaker 2: for my community, the Egyptian community, the Coptic community, the

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Speaker 2: Arabic community, the migrant community in Australia. I hope I've

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Speaker 2: done my best to be a somewhat positive role model.

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Speaker 2: And I used to try and attend all the recruitment days,

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Speaker 2: particularly in Southwest Sydney, where we talked to the communities.

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Speaker 2: Not that I was sort of exhibit A, but they

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Speaker 2: would say, look here is someone who is just a

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Speaker 2: kid from Marrickville and.

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Speaker 4: This migrant boy he's achieved.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if I can do it, I'm very ordinary. So

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Speaker 2: if I can do it, I think anyone can. And

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Speaker 2: that was my message, you know you can do this.

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Speaker 2: There shouldn't be no glass ceilings. I'm happy to have

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Speaker 2: breaken through a couple of glass ceilings. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: a lawyer, and I'm certainly not a judge, and I'm

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Speaker 2: maybe the first one to head up a federal royal

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Speaker 2: commission without being a lawyer. My two co commissioners one

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Speaker 2: was a Supreme Court judge, former Supreme Court Judge James Douglass,

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Speaker 2: and the other one was a psychiatrist and pharmacy of

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Speaker 2: National Mental Health Commission. So I think the three of

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Speaker 2: us brought really good perspectives to that problem and it

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Speaker 2: worked quite well.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with former Deputy Commissioner of the New South

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Speaker 1: Wales Police Force, Nick called us up. Next, Nick tells

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Speaker 1: us about the Gonzales family murders and how Seph Gonzales

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Speaker 1: reported his family's death to police. Let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: Gonzales murders and look at the Gonzales family themselves. What

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Speaker 1: do we know about their lives and who they were

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Speaker 1: before they immigrated to Australia from the Philippines.

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Speaker 3: They're a religious family.

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Speaker 2: They were Catholic, quite quite law abiding and hard working

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Speaker 2: mum and dad and the daughter obviously, and the son

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Speaker 2: and somewhere along the line. And I'm not a psychologist,

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Speaker 2: but the son obviously sEH lost his way emotionally or

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Speaker 2: ethically morally. To kill your own family because you want

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Speaker 2: the inheritance, it's pretty bad. But he was failing, and

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Speaker 2: there were very high expectations. I think, as mass migrant

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Speaker 2: firmary's experience, his dad had very high expectations expecting him

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Speaker 2: to go to UNI and to study and to do

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Speaker 2: all these things which he simply wasn't up to doing.

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Speaker 2: And he couldn't in my view, he couldn't admit that.

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Speaker 2: So the answer was he wanted the lifestyle and the

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Speaker 2: car and the house and the money and whatever, and

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Speaker 2: this thing stood in his way, with his father insisting

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Speaker 2: that he actually do well at studying and graduating and

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Speaker 2: so on, so he took the ultimate step of killing them.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that family dynamic for a moment,

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Speaker 1: because they did immigrate after a major earthquake in the

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Speaker 1: Philippines destroyed dad's business, and apparently Seth was pulled from

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Speaker 1: the rubble by his dad, Teddy, So he saved his

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Speaker 1: life back then, which is ironic seeing as he would

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Speaker 1: take his life later.

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Speaker 4: But you're right.

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Speaker 1: Seth started a medical degree, failed it, then shifted to law,

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Speaker 1: and from what his parents thought at the time, he

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Speaker 1: was actually doing remarkably well. He joined the family firm

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Speaker 1: as a paralegal and it specialist. So for a while

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Speaker 1: there looked like things were going really well. But then

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Speaker 1: it seems that wills were starting to fall off because

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Speaker 1: Seph wanted to be a musician. He was in a

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Speaker 1: boy band that played at some nightclubs, etc. He'd gotten

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Speaker 1: a girlfriend, and I'm guessing that family dynamic, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: which does run through quite a lot of migrant families,

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Speaker 1: is a real high expectation that you will be academic

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Speaker 1: and that you will deliver a really satisfying career result

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Speaker 1: as a result of that academic.

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Speaker 4: Was that what we think? I mean?

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Speaker 1: He said he did this for the inheritance, But was

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Speaker 1: that the beginning of where the will started to fall off?

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Speaker 1: That pressure on him to become something that he didn't

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Speaker 1: want to be.

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Speaker 3: And he was failing.

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Speaker 2: He was actually in you and he was never going

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Speaker 2: to be able to live up to I don't think

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Speaker 2: he was ever going to finish and graduate and whatever.

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Speaker 3: He simply wasn't up to it.

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Speaker 1: How did he then make his parents think he was

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Speaker 1: being successful.

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Speaker 2: Well, he didn't tell him where he was and what

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Speaker 2: he was doing. Basically, there's an old story. Actually it's

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Speaker 2: probably illustrates the point you're making among migrant communities. A

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Speaker 2: fellow called Rami Mallick, who's an actor who played Freddie

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Speaker 2: Mercury in the movie About Queen His Egyptian like me,

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Speaker 2: and he won the Best Actor Oscar Award. So he

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Speaker 2: rang his mom allegedly and said to her mom, I've

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Speaker 2: won the Best Actor Oscar Award. And she said to him,

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Speaker 2: that's nice, son, but you're not a doctor. So that's

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Speaker 2: the expectation that if you're not a doctor. I'm a

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Speaker 2: bit of a failure in many ways. But I think

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Speaker 2: reality sort of was surrounding him and haunting him, and

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Speaker 2: he got to a point where he simply would have

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Speaker 2: had to admit to his father and family at some

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Speaker 2: stays and I'm failing. I'm not going to do what

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Speaker 2: you think I'm up to. And he didn't know how

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Speaker 2: they take that. They probably desame him and whatever, and

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Speaker 2: so his answer was to not confront the problem and

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Speaker 2: talk to them about it is to kill him. Now,

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Speaker 2: how he went from that to killing his parents and

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Speaker 2: sister and so on, I really don't know. I can't

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Speaker 2: comprehend that mentality of going to that really extreme, horrible

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Speaker 2: evil conclusion, but he certainly did that.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the crime itself. It's the tenth

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Speaker 1: of July two thousand and one. So Teddy, his dad,

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Speaker 1: Loiver mum have gone off to work in separate cars.

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Speaker 1: His sister Claudine is home from school for school holidays.

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Speaker 1: She's been shifted down to Melbourne because in this strict

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Speaker 1: parenting style that they have, she got a boyfriend in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: so they shifted her away to live somewhere else in

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Speaker 1: order for her to focus on her studies. Right, So

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Speaker 1: she's back, she's a couple of days away from returning

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Speaker 1: to Melbourne, so she's getting some study and she stayed

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Speaker 1: at home. What do we know of Seth's movements or

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Speaker 1: what Seth said his movements were that day.

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Speaker 2: There were a lot of inconsistencies in what he said,

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Speaker 2: which were proven in the evidence and produced in court,

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Speaker 2: and it was one of the things that brought him

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Speaker 2: undone is that he lied. He tried to change his

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Speaker 2: version a number of times, and it's just got worse

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Speaker 2: and worse for him. He could not account for his

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Speaker 2: whereabouts at the time of the murder, and there were

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Speaker 2: neighbors who had seen the car and the driveway and

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Speaker 2: so on. I can't recall exact details, but I do

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Speaker 2: recall that it was a critical factor in the case

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Speaker 2: against him.

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Speaker 3: Lying is never good.

380
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Speaker 2: For someone who's accused of murder. Being caught out is

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Speaker 2: obviously very bad. And then when you put your foot

382
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Speaker 2: in it further and create concoct more lies that you

383
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Speaker 2: caught out about. And there were records of his movements

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Speaker 2: through entry into buildings and other things that were produced

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Speaker 2: as well. It was a very thorough methodical sort of

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Speaker 2: gathering and timeline that was put together by Mikshi and Esteem,

387
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Speaker 2: and ultimately the jury was convinced that is they were right.

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Speaker 1: Soliver's sister is supporting her nephew through this. She thinks

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Speaker 1: that he's devastated by the murder of his family members.

390
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Speaker 1: So she's sitting with him while he's being interviewed by police,

391
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Speaker 1: and he said that he had popped home, but he'd

392
00:19:18,111 --> 00:19:20,232
Speaker 1: sat in the car in the driveway because it was

393
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Speaker 1: raining at around six pm, And she recalls like snatching

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Speaker 1: her hand away from him because in that moment, she

395
00:19:27,512 --> 00:19:30,792
Speaker 1: realizes that he's lying because she had gone to the

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Speaker 1: house at six pm and she knew full well it

397
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Speaker 1: wasn't raining, and she had seen his car in the

398
00:19:36,111 --> 00:19:39,672
Speaker 1: driveway and knew that he wasn't in it. But police

399
00:19:40,712 --> 00:19:43,311
Speaker 1: realized that she realizes that he's lying, and then they

400
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Speaker 1: recruit her to try and get his confession. Yep, that's

401
00:19:48,391 --> 00:19:50,111
Speaker 1: really clever. Did that work though?

402
00:19:50,631 --> 00:19:52,792
Speaker 2: After some extent that did He told her things that

403
00:19:52,831 --> 00:19:55,711
Speaker 2: he probably didn't mean to and particularly didn't want the

404
00:19:55,712 --> 00:19:59,831
Speaker 2: police to sort of hear. But it sat human dynamic

405
00:20:00,111 --> 00:20:03,351
Speaker 2: where you see and the Lynka family murders was the

406
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Speaker 2: other case where a lot of people stuck with the offenda,

407
00:20:05,472 --> 00:20:08,231
Speaker 2: thinking the guy, he's lost his loved ones. You know,

408
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Speaker 2: we've got to try and support him and what have you.

409
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Speaker 2: You might recall that famous moment was Sep Gonzales sang

410
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Speaker 2: a hymn at the funeral for his parents, and.

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Speaker 1: There washing some of the Mariah Carey song, didn't he

412
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Speaker 1: it was one fine day or something, if I remember.

413
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Speaker 2: Rightly, There wasn't a dry eye in the house. It

414
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Speaker 2: was this terrible story about this kid who'd lost his

415
00:20:26,272 --> 00:20:30,151
Speaker 2: family and we must all feel sorry for him, which

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Speaker 2: makes it even more evil. I have to say, I

417
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Speaker 2: mean to do something as horrible as that and then

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Speaker 2: soak up the adulation and sympathies in itself pretty bad.

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Speaker 1: What was interesting, too, is police said that they kind

420
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Speaker 1: of knew from the Triple O call onwards that something

421
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Speaker 1: wasn't right with Seph, because while he seemed to be

422
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Speaker 1: very distraught and he seemed to be sobbing when they

423
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Speaker 1: arrived at the scene, he wasn't actually crying and he

424
00:21:01,591 --> 00:21:05,111
Speaker 1: gave very clear answers to directives and questions. Is that

425
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Speaker 1: a bit of a give way when someone is a

426
00:21:07,391 --> 00:21:09,552
Speaker 1: little bit too on the ball.

427
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and my memory is that there were no tears.

428
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Speaker 2: But yeah, I think call it the gut feeling, and

429
00:21:16,192 --> 00:21:19,752
Speaker 2: certainly most homicide investigators would have this. Within the first

430
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Speaker 2: few hours. You tend to get a bit of a

431
00:21:21,431 --> 00:21:25,272
Speaker 2: gut feeling. And my belief is that it's usually right.

432
00:21:25,831 --> 00:21:29,111
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's wrong. It's not one hundred percent, but I

433
00:21:29,192 --> 00:21:31,552
Speaker 2: know in the Newman murder, literally within a few hours

434
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Speaker 2: we were thinking the murderer was our man. In that one,

435
00:21:34,911 --> 00:21:36,751
Speaker 2: we had ninety seven lines of inquiry and we had

436
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Speaker 2: to eliminate all of them before we could charge anyone,

437
00:21:38,992 --> 00:21:41,831
Speaker 2: which we did. But you eventually land on the one,

438
00:21:41,871 --> 00:21:44,951
Speaker 2: and certainly in the Seth Gonzales murder, they very quickly

439
00:21:44,992 --> 00:21:49,831
Speaker 2: landed on belief that he one was not being truthful.

440
00:21:49,871 --> 00:21:54,591
Speaker 2: The body language is really important, nonverbal communications, inconsistencies in

441
00:21:54,631 --> 00:21:57,751
Speaker 2: the stories, lies that were able to be proved as lies,

442
00:21:58,111 --> 00:22:01,392
Speaker 2: deliberate lies that couldn't possibly be a mistake, and quite

443
00:22:01,391 --> 00:22:03,552
Speaker 2: a large number of those, and then if you add

444
00:22:03,591 --> 00:22:06,232
Speaker 2: all that up together, it becomes a very compelling circum

445
00:22:06,311 --> 00:22:07,032
Speaker 2: stential case.

446
00:22:07,792 --> 00:22:10,431
Speaker 1: They did have to rule out some other lines of

447
00:22:10,472 --> 00:22:13,831
Speaker 1: inquiry though, because there is the potential racial hate crime

448
00:22:13,911 --> 00:22:16,552
Speaker 1: because of the graffiti. There's also a lot of conversation

449
00:22:16,591 --> 00:22:20,272
Speaker 1: about Teddy's business. He worked as a lawyer helping Filipino

450
00:22:20,351 --> 00:22:23,191
Speaker 1: immigrants come into Australia and do their documentation, and he

451
00:22:23,272 --> 00:22:26,351
Speaker 1: had been charged with falsifying some documents. He was later

452
00:22:26,391 --> 00:22:28,992
Speaker 1: cleared of that, but there was this phone call that

453
00:22:29,032 --> 00:22:31,472
Speaker 1: a colleague overheard that he was arguing with somebody back

454
00:22:31,472 --> 00:22:33,992
Speaker 1: in the Philippines over some property and that there was

455
00:22:33,992 --> 00:22:35,711
Speaker 1: a threat to kill his family. So there was a

456
00:22:35,712 --> 00:22:38,391
Speaker 1: lot of other lines of inquiry that were followed. Seph

457
00:22:38,552 --> 00:22:39,592
Speaker 1: wasn't the only.

458
00:22:39,311 --> 00:22:43,672
Speaker 2: One right now, And to be fair and any murder investigation,

459
00:22:44,192 --> 00:22:46,951
Speaker 2: you absolutely have to follow all those other lines of

460
00:22:46,952 --> 00:22:50,232
Speaker 2: inquiries to the nth degree and rule them out because

461
00:22:50,272 --> 00:22:52,552
Speaker 2: if you don't, they will be brought up in court

462
00:22:52,631 --> 00:22:54,792
Speaker 2: and the defense will say you haven't done your job.

463
00:22:55,032 --> 00:22:58,751
Speaker 2: There are other possibilities, our client is innocent, etc. So

464
00:22:59,032 --> 00:23:03,071
Speaker 2: it's really crucial in any murder investigation to actually listen

465
00:23:03,111 --> 00:23:07,152
Speaker 2: to and follow up on any other possibility really other

466
00:23:07,192 --> 00:23:09,951
Speaker 2: than the person you ultimately charge, to make sure that

467
00:23:09,992 --> 00:23:11,032
Speaker 2: there is nothing there.

468
00:23:11,311 --> 00:23:14,752
Speaker 3: And certainly that was the case in the Seth Gonzales case.

469
00:23:15,591 --> 00:23:20,351
Speaker 1: Can we talk about the injuries to the victims, because

470
00:23:21,591 --> 00:23:24,831
Speaker 1: it's interesting when you look at the three different victims.

471
00:23:24,831 --> 00:23:28,191
Speaker 1: So Claudine, his younger sister, was the first to be killed.

472
00:23:28,952 --> 00:23:30,391
Speaker 1: What do we know about her death?

473
00:23:31,351 --> 00:23:32,992
Speaker 3: I think it was quite horrible, obviously.

474
00:23:33,032 --> 00:23:35,552
Speaker 2: I mean this might be distressing for some of the listeners,

475
00:23:35,591 --> 00:23:38,792
Speaker 2: but I wasn't at the scene, but I'm told there

476
00:23:38,792 --> 00:23:42,591
Speaker 2: are metal grids that police use in a crime scene

477
00:23:43,391 --> 00:23:45,711
Speaker 2: that are off the ground, lifted off the ground about

478
00:23:46,071 --> 00:23:48,751
Speaker 2: four or five inches, and there was so much blood

479
00:23:49,071 --> 00:23:52,511
Speaker 2: both with Claudine's murder and the parents' murder, that they

480
00:23:52,552 --> 00:23:54,351
Speaker 2: had to put a number of those to step on

481
00:23:54,472 --> 00:23:59,751
Speaker 2: so that an't disturbed the scene until it's photographed and captured. Fully,

482
00:24:00,192 --> 00:24:04,951
Speaker 2: there's a huge amount of blood everywhere. Really, and sorry

483
00:24:04,992 --> 00:24:08,391
Speaker 2: they digress lightly. One of the things I and the

484
00:24:08,431 --> 00:24:10,552
Speaker 2: senior police really have to worry about in these sorts

485
00:24:10,552 --> 00:24:13,231
Speaker 2: of cases is the mental health and well being of

486
00:24:13,311 --> 00:24:16,191
Speaker 2: the homicide investigator seeing the worst of humanity in that

487
00:24:16,232 --> 00:24:19,392
Speaker 2: sort of situation, which I think we do reasonably well.

488
00:24:19,391 --> 00:24:19,471
Speaker 3: Now.

489
00:24:19,512 --> 00:24:21,551
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say it was perfect always, but

490
00:24:21,871 --> 00:24:22,911
Speaker 2: it certainly is now.

491
00:24:23,351 --> 00:24:25,912
Speaker 3: But one of the things that I was briefed on.

492
00:24:26,111 --> 00:24:29,071
Speaker 2: Is the sheer quantity of blood that had been spilled

493
00:24:29,671 --> 00:24:34,071
Speaker 2: Beth in Claudine's murder and their parents' murder, there's quite

494
00:24:34,071 --> 00:24:34,912
Speaker 2: savage stabbing.

495
00:24:36,032 --> 00:24:39,712
Speaker 1: She was also hit with some kind of lune tob

496
00:24:39,792 --> 00:24:46,512
Speaker 1: jot too, Yeah, and strangled like that feels very personal.

497
00:24:47,351 --> 00:24:50,151
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think there's some evidence given at the

498
00:24:50,151 --> 00:24:53,431
Speaker 2: time about the mode if you like the method of

499
00:24:54,071 --> 00:24:57,991
Speaker 2: operation and how savage it was. I can't, I honestly

500
00:24:58,032 --> 00:25:00,751
Speaker 2: can't explain that. I can't rationalize it for someone to

501
00:25:00,752 --> 00:25:03,552
Speaker 2: do that to their sister. I know there's a move

502
00:25:03,591 --> 00:25:06,512
Speaker 2: at the moment by those who support Seth Gonzale to

503
00:25:06,591 --> 00:25:10,192
Speaker 2: having released I think those who are thinking of that

504
00:25:10,792 --> 00:25:12,951
Speaker 2: need to look at what you've just said and the

505
00:25:12,992 --> 00:25:16,711
Speaker 2: savagery that had occurred in that house before they support.

506
00:25:16,351 --> 00:25:17,111
Speaker 3: Someone like him.

507
00:25:17,552 --> 00:25:22,792
Speaker 1: In Claudine's case, there was this theory that she had

508
00:25:23,151 --> 00:25:26,912
Speaker 1: found out that he was falsifying his university records and

509
00:25:26,992 --> 00:25:30,471
Speaker 1: had maybe dabbed him in to his parents, which is

510
00:25:30,512 --> 00:25:34,111
Speaker 1: why there was a motive here potentially for him to

511
00:25:34,192 --> 00:25:36,711
Speaker 1: be so savage towards her. Do you remember if that

512
00:25:36,911 --> 00:25:38,471
Speaker 1: was ever proven.

513
00:25:38,792 --> 00:25:41,071
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't proven, but that was certainly a very

514
00:25:41,071 --> 00:25:44,671
Speaker 2: strong suspicion that police held, and unless he begins to

515
00:25:44,712 --> 00:25:47,551
Speaker 2: tell the truth, which will never happen, I don't think

516
00:25:47,591 --> 00:25:49,071
Speaker 2: we'll ever get to the bottom of that. But that

517
00:25:49,192 --> 00:25:51,552
Speaker 2: is the logical conclusion from everything we've heard.

518
00:25:52,151 --> 00:25:55,311
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the deaths of Teddy and LLOIV because

519
00:25:56,111 --> 00:26:01,512
Speaker 1: in Loyver's case, police in the autopsy report found neck

520
00:26:01,552 --> 00:26:06,831
Speaker 1: wounds from a knife that were done post mortem, suggests

521
00:26:06,831 --> 00:26:10,151
Speaker 1: that her killer stabbed so many times he kept going

522
00:26:10,232 --> 00:26:13,192
Speaker 1: even after she was dead. Like, what does that tell

523
00:26:13,232 --> 00:26:17,991
Speaker 1: you about somebody when they just are obviously full of

524
00:26:18,032 --> 00:26:20,231
Speaker 1: so much rage that they don't even stop when their

525
00:26:20,272 --> 00:26:20,952
Speaker 1: victim is dead.

526
00:26:21,952 --> 00:26:25,232
Speaker 2: I think we'll never know, but my belief is that

527
00:26:25,272 --> 00:26:27,591
Speaker 2: he wanted to make sure that the job was done.

528
00:26:27,752 --> 00:26:30,032
Speaker 2: He didn't want to take any chance that they may recover.

529
00:26:30,631 --> 00:26:34,671
Speaker 2: It's truly savage. I mean on any level that alone

530
00:26:34,671 --> 00:26:36,672
Speaker 2: was a loved one. To do that to a loved one.

531
00:26:37,992 --> 00:26:41,232
Speaker 1: There did seem to be some kind of attempt to

532
00:26:41,232 --> 00:26:43,631
Speaker 1: make it look like a burglary, like there were some

533
00:26:43,792 --> 00:26:49,192
Speaker 1: things placed around, some wardrobes opened, but police did notice

534
00:26:49,192 --> 00:26:52,751
Speaker 1: that the house was pretty impeccable. Other than those bits

535
00:26:53,792 --> 00:26:55,951
Speaker 1: would it have been for police like super obvious that

536
00:26:56,032 --> 00:26:57,232
Speaker 1: this was not a robbery.

537
00:26:58,232 --> 00:27:00,511
Speaker 2: I think I wouldn't say super obvious, but it was

538
00:27:00,512 --> 00:27:03,352
Speaker 2: certainly a conclusion that you would reach once you examined

539
00:27:03,351 --> 00:27:07,791
Speaker 2: the house properly and worked out I mean, there's it

540
00:27:07,831 --> 00:27:11,111
Speaker 2: was sort of an attempt to lead police to thinking

541
00:27:11,151 --> 00:27:13,472
Speaker 2: that it was a racist attack. It doesn't quite fit

542
00:27:13,512 --> 00:27:16,111
Speaker 2: in with a robbery. The two separate sort of sets

543
00:27:16,111 --> 00:27:18,071
Speaker 2: of motivations. If you're a racist, you're not going to

544
00:27:18,071 --> 00:27:20,551
Speaker 2: be there for monetary gain, and if you're there from

545
00:27:20,552 --> 00:27:22,512
Speaker 2: monetary gain, you're not going to scrawl all that stuff

546
00:27:22,512 --> 00:27:25,352
Speaker 2: on the walls calling them names. So it was just

547
00:27:25,431 --> 00:27:28,311
Speaker 2: it was incongruous. Really, it didn't fit. It just didn't fit,

548
00:27:28,591 --> 00:27:30,191
Speaker 2: as was most things in that case.

549
00:27:30,631 --> 00:27:33,831
Speaker 1: Well, another thing that doesn't fit, which police reenacted was

550
00:27:33,871 --> 00:27:36,591
Speaker 1: sef did say that he saw someone that night run

551
00:27:36,591 --> 00:27:40,392
Speaker 1: away from the house, one maybe two men. But what's

552
00:27:40,431 --> 00:27:42,711
Speaker 1: interesting is how much detailed police have to go into

553
00:27:42,871 --> 00:27:48,111
Speaker 1: in reenacting what a suspect tells them happened, because they

554
00:27:48,151 --> 00:27:50,992
Speaker 1: actually stepped through everything that he told them and found

555
00:27:50,992 --> 00:27:53,231
Speaker 1: out that it just was not physically possible for him

556
00:27:53,272 --> 00:27:55,632
Speaker 1: to have gotten downstairs, opened roll the door, got out

557
00:27:55,631 --> 00:27:57,552
Speaker 1: onto the road and seen someone run off.

558
00:27:57,631 --> 00:28:00,152
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, you're absolutely right.

559
00:28:00,151 --> 00:28:04,551
Speaker 2: But reenactments are really important, and usually they're filmed so

560
00:28:04,631 --> 00:28:06,151
Speaker 2: that they can be shown to a jury or a

561
00:28:06,351 --> 00:28:09,712
Speaker 2: judge later on. Obviously, but again it was just these

562
00:28:10,631 --> 00:28:14,391
Speaker 2: really significant inconsistencies in what he was saying, and the

563
00:28:14,431 --> 00:28:17,151
Speaker 2: fact that you could prove that it's not right. What

564
00:28:17,151 --> 00:28:19,911
Speaker 2: he's saying is not right, and then the logical conclusion

565
00:28:19,952 --> 00:28:22,871
Speaker 2: is it's not an accident, it's not a mistake. This

566
00:28:22,911 --> 00:28:26,191
Speaker 2: is a deliberate lie in an attempt to lead police

567
00:28:26,192 --> 00:28:27,831
Speaker 2: in a different direction to reality.

568
00:28:28,752 --> 00:28:31,071
Speaker 1: There's also a couple of other bits that no one

569
00:28:31,071 --> 00:28:34,591
Speaker 1: could quite explain, although Sef did try to explain them,

570
00:28:34,591 --> 00:28:36,351
Speaker 1: which is why because he said he went in and

571
00:28:36,431 --> 00:28:39,152
Speaker 1: attempted CPR on his family members and he tried to

572
00:28:39,232 --> 00:28:42,191
Speaker 1: tend to his sister's wounds. But he had very little

573
00:28:42,232 --> 00:28:46,232
Speaker 1: blood on him, and as you mentioned, like police had

574
00:28:46,272 --> 00:28:48,392
Speaker 1: to put in measures to make sure they didn't contaminate

575
00:28:48,392 --> 00:28:51,432
Speaker 1: the scene due to the sheer amount of blood at

576
00:28:51,431 --> 00:28:54,191
Speaker 1: the scene. And also he had a tiny blue stain

577
00:28:54,952 --> 00:28:58,152
Speaker 1: on his jumper which suspiciously matched the shade of blue

578
00:28:58,152 --> 00:29:03,191
Speaker 1: that that racist graffiti was sprayed on. He then mentions

579
00:29:03,232 --> 00:29:05,712
Speaker 1: that it was raining, so the rain would have washed

580
00:29:05,712 --> 00:29:09,511
Speaker 1: the blood away. Like how do investigators in that moment,

581
00:29:10,312 --> 00:29:14,032
Speaker 1: noticing these inconsistencies and then hearing those explanations not kind

582
00:29:14,032 --> 00:29:16,832
Speaker 1: of roll their eyes and say like sure, mate, Like

583
00:29:16,872 --> 00:29:18,952
Speaker 1: how do you handle that and still try and get

584
00:29:19,032 --> 00:29:21,432
Speaker 1: him to reveal himself.

585
00:29:21,952 --> 00:29:24,911
Speaker 2: The thing is, when you know you're being fat in

586
00:29:24,992 --> 00:29:27,832
Speaker 2: line and it's not true, the worst thing you can

587
00:29:27,872 --> 00:29:29,912
Speaker 2: do is to roll your eyes or sort of lose

588
00:29:30,792 --> 00:29:34,872
Speaker 2: control or whatever. Obviously the professionalism kicks in, but you

589
00:29:34,911 --> 00:29:37,952
Speaker 2: would continue to probe in an effort to get them

590
00:29:37,992 --> 00:29:40,031
Speaker 2: to say, you know, And that's what happens. I think

591
00:29:40,072 --> 00:29:42,872
Speaker 2: that's what happened with Seth. He was lying about things,

592
00:29:42,911 --> 00:29:45,152
Speaker 2: and when he got caught out on things, he dug

593
00:29:45,232 --> 00:29:48,112
Speaker 2: himself deeper and deeper into a hole. And that's really

594
00:29:48,192 --> 00:29:52,112
Speaker 2: I mean when police are interviewing, the ideal situation, if

595
00:29:52,112 --> 00:29:55,152
Speaker 2: you have a transcript of the interview, which is recorded,

596
00:29:55,632 --> 00:29:57,992
Speaker 2: you would have one or two lines from the investigator

597
00:29:57,992 --> 00:30:01,432
Speaker 2: asking questions, and then a big piece or a big

598
00:30:01,512 --> 00:30:04,911
Speaker 2: chunk from the suspect who's answering the questions. What you

599
00:30:04,952 --> 00:30:07,192
Speaker 2: don't want is for the investigat to be doing mast

600
00:30:07,192 --> 00:30:09,711
Speaker 2: of the talking. You want to draw them out, You

601
00:30:09,752 --> 00:30:11,832
Speaker 2: want them to do the master of the talking. You

602
00:30:11,911 --> 00:30:14,592
Speaker 2: want them to not dig a hole for themselves. If

603
00:30:14,592 --> 00:30:16,592
Speaker 2: they're telling the truth, then there would be no problem.

604
00:30:17,152 --> 00:30:19,312
Speaker 2: But the idea is it's not to roll your eyes

605
00:30:19,392 --> 00:30:22,352
Speaker 2: or act centicals, to simply plow on and get them

606
00:30:22,392 --> 00:30:23,072
Speaker 2: to keep talking.

607
00:30:23,911 --> 00:30:29,672
Speaker 1: With Seph, was it harder to grasp that he could

608
00:30:29,712 --> 00:30:33,191
Speaker 1: have done this just from the way he looks? And

609
00:30:33,232 --> 00:30:35,072
Speaker 1: we talk about this with victims a lot of the time,

610
00:30:35,152 --> 00:30:37,832
Speaker 1: that there is this idea of the perfect victim, how

611
00:30:37,872 --> 00:30:39,632
Speaker 1: they look and how they react and how they act

612
00:30:39,671 --> 00:30:43,671
Speaker 1: in those times of stressful situations. But in Seph's case,

613
00:30:44,352 --> 00:30:46,872
Speaker 1: he was in his twenties, but he looked about twelve.

614
00:30:46,911 --> 00:30:50,272
Speaker 1: He looked really, really young, such a babyface.

615
00:30:50,632 --> 00:30:51,952
Speaker 4: He looked really innocent.

616
00:30:52,352 --> 00:30:54,352
Speaker 1: Was it hard to look at him like a potential

617
00:30:54,392 --> 00:30:56,432
Speaker 1: suspect when he looked like a little boy?

618
00:30:58,232 --> 00:30:58,432
Speaker 3: Look.

619
00:30:58,472 --> 00:31:00,352
Speaker 2: I can't speak for the investigators, but I think I

620
00:31:00,392 --> 00:31:03,672
Speaker 2: certainly thought, Jesus, you know, where did this go wrong?

621
00:31:03,712 --> 00:31:06,471
Speaker 2: Where did this kid go wrong? And he clearly had

622
00:31:06,512 --> 00:31:08,112
Speaker 2: gone wrong? And then as time went by and the

623
00:31:08,152 --> 00:31:12,312
Speaker 2: evidence mounted, I think they just accepted that this is

624
00:31:12,312 --> 00:31:15,472
Speaker 2: what happened, that he had this evil streak in him obviously,

625
00:31:15,512 --> 00:31:18,032
Speaker 2: and he had done this terrible thing. You have to

626
00:31:18,032 --> 00:31:20,552
Speaker 2: put your personal feelings aside sometimes. I mean, I've seen

627
00:31:20,712 --> 00:31:23,832
Speaker 2: murder cases where the police may have some sympathy for

628
00:31:24,272 --> 00:31:27,312
Speaker 2: the murder of domestic violence, for instance, where the victim

629
00:31:27,352 --> 00:31:31,672
Speaker 2: may eventually lash out and do something to the offender,

630
00:31:31,752 --> 00:31:34,751
Speaker 2: to the person that's hurting them. You have sympathy, but

631
00:31:34,792 --> 00:31:37,352
Speaker 2: you can't let it stop you from doing and you

632
00:31:38,072 --> 00:31:40,352
Speaker 2: can't let that thinking hold you up.

633
00:31:40,392 --> 00:31:41,511
Speaker 3: You've got to do what you've got to do.

634
00:31:44,671 --> 00:31:47,911
Speaker 1: After the break, Nick reveals how investigators began to catch

635
00:31:47,952 --> 00:31:51,032
Speaker 1: on to Seth's lives, ultimately leading to his unraveling.

636
00:31:51,272 --> 00:31:51,912
Speaker 4: Stay with us.

637
00:31:54,911 --> 00:31:58,112
Speaker 1: Do you remember what police uncovered when they started speaking

638
00:31:58,152 --> 00:32:01,872
Speaker 1: to Seth's sort of extended circle his friends and colleagues,

639
00:32:01,911 --> 00:32:05,632
Speaker 1: because there was some wild claims made by him as

640
00:32:05,671 --> 00:32:07,392
Speaker 1: to sort of what he did for a living and

641
00:32:08,192 --> 00:32:09,751
Speaker 1: who he was in the world. Do you remember some

642
00:32:09,792 --> 00:32:10,992
Speaker 1: of the things he was telling people?

643
00:32:11,112 --> 00:32:11,911
Speaker 3: Yeah? I do.

644
00:32:12,032 --> 00:32:15,152
Speaker 2: Recall that he lived a sort of fantasy life, if

645
00:32:15,192 --> 00:32:17,711
Speaker 2: you like, where he bragged about things and claim things

646
00:32:17,752 --> 00:32:20,431
Speaker 2: and simply went true and all of that came back

647
00:32:20,472 --> 00:32:22,872
Speaker 2: to haunt him, obviously, once the police started interviewing all

648
00:32:22,911 --> 00:32:26,352
Speaker 2: these associates and fellow students and all of that sort

649
00:32:26,392 --> 00:32:29,832
Speaker 2: of stuff. It's yet another motive in my view, that

650
00:32:29,952 --> 00:32:32,952
Speaker 2: he had said all these things to people, and if

651
00:32:32,992 --> 00:32:35,872
Speaker 2: he had not completed you and he dropped out because

652
00:32:35,872 --> 00:32:38,632
Speaker 2: he was failing and not and got cut off by

653
00:32:38,632 --> 00:32:40,432
Speaker 2: the family in some way, it would have all sort

654
00:32:40,431 --> 00:32:43,192
Speaker 2: of collapsed around him. One of the things that I

655
00:32:43,232 --> 00:32:46,152
Speaker 2: think he would have wanted to achieve with the murders

656
00:32:46,592 --> 00:32:49,632
Speaker 2: is to have this instant sympathy and empathy from all

657
00:32:49,671 --> 00:32:53,432
Speaker 2: his associates, friends, family, and so on, and that they

658
00:32:54,072 --> 00:32:56,312
Speaker 2: would not be questioning about some of the crap he

659
00:32:56,392 --> 00:32:58,872
Speaker 2: said and dished out. I don't recall much about what

660
00:32:58,911 --> 00:33:01,312
Speaker 2: he actually said, but I do remember that once the

661
00:33:01,352 --> 00:33:03,671
Speaker 2: police came back about from some of these interviews, they

662
00:33:03,712 --> 00:33:06,231
Speaker 2: just said, he's lived. I can't think of the character

663
00:33:06,352 --> 00:33:08,671
Speaker 2: in that movie where it's all it's all basically a

664
00:33:08,712 --> 00:33:09,632
Speaker 2: facaded lights.

665
00:33:10,671 --> 00:33:13,552
Speaker 1: What's really interesting and I want to get your take

666
00:33:13,592 --> 00:33:18,431
Speaker 1: on this is how he may have tried to plan

667
00:33:18,552 --> 00:33:22,911
Speaker 1: this murder before that day, Because there was quite a

668
00:33:22,952 --> 00:33:26,431
Speaker 1: few fines in his Internet search history to do with

669
00:33:26,671 --> 00:33:30,032
Speaker 1: dangerous plants. There was a vial of liquid found taped

670
00:33:30,112 --> 00:33:33,712
Speaker 1: underneath a desk, and a suspicious case of food poisoning

671
00:33:33,752 --> 00:33:35,752
Speaker 1: that his mum had experience. It did land her in

672
00:33:35,832 --> 00:33:40,152
Speaker 1: hospital for a couple of days. Was that used as

673
00:33:40,352 --> 00:33:43,152
Speaker 1: evidence in court, the fact that he'd actually planned to

674
00:33:43,232 --> 00:33:44,911
Speaker 1: do this another way previously?

675
00:33:45,392 --> 00:33:48,632
Speaker 2: Yes, what had showed, that's absolutely right. And what it

676
00:33:48,712 --> 00:33:51,472
Speaker 2: did show is that he was exploring ways of doing

677
00:33:51,512 --> 00:33:54,592
Speaker 2: it without getting caught. I don't think your listeners would.

678
00:33:54,832 --> 00:33:57,272
Speaker 2: I'm sure they would appreciate the fact that even if

679
00:33:57,272 --> 00:34:00,592
Speaker 2: you wipe the search history off your laptop is still there.

680
00:34:00,632 --> 00:34:02,392
Speaker 4: You go, criminals. Make sure you know that.

681
00:34:02,911 --> 00:34:06,392
Speaker 3: I think everyone knows that. I mean, you can't. This

682
00:34:06,192 --> 00:34:06,792
Speaker 3: is the thing.

683
00:34:07,032 --> 00:34:11,712
Speaker 2: Technology now is so pervasive, there's almost no privacy. So

684
00:34:11,952 --> 00:34:15,111
Speaker 2: what you do is usually you know, you can dig

685
00:34:15,152 --> 00:34:17,152
Speaker 2: it up again later on if the authorities come in,

686
00:34:17,192 --> 00:34:18,232
Speaker 2: and they can dig it up later on.

687
00:34:18,272 --> 00:34:21,071
Speaker 1: So even back in two thousand and one, and it's

688
00:34:21,112 --> 00:34:22,671
Speaker 1: still a possibility.

689
00:34:22,232 --> 00:34:23,112
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

690
00:34:23,152 --> 00:34:27,112
Speaker 2: But the thing is, it is a fairly key finding

691
00:34:27,152 --> 00:34:30,071
Speaker 2: that he was exploring ways to kill people and then

692
00:34:30,232 --> 00:34:32,991
Speaker 2: this happens obviously, Well, the only conclusion that can be

693
00:34:33,072 --> 00:34:35,671
Speaker 2: drawn is that he was exploring ways to do it

694
00:34:35,712 --> 00:34:38,111
Speaker 2: in a way that where he wouldn't get caught if

695
00:34:38,152 --> 00:34:41,312
Speaker 2: it was done by stealth. It didn't work out for him,

696
00:34:41,312 --> 00:34:44,951
Speaker 2: obviously a new resorted to the more physical approach, but

697
00:34:45,991 --> 00:34:48,072
Speaker 2: it certainly was very much a part of the evidence

698
00:34:48,112 --> 00:34:48,911
Speaker 2: against him.

699
00:34:49,232 --> 00:34:52,992
Speaker 1: When police made it quite clear that Sef's alibi wasn't legit,

700
00:34:53,192 --> 00:34:56,631
Speaker 1: he did claim that he'd driven to find a friend

701
00:34:56,712 --> 00:34:59,392
Speaker 1: who just moved to Kingsgrove but didn't know his address

702
00:34:59,392 --> 00:35:01,232
Speaker 1: and only realized that when he got there, and so

703
00:35:01,352 --> 00:35:03,272
Speaker 1: drove around Kings Grove for a bit before he came

704
00:35:03,312 --> 00:35:04,832
Speaker 1: back to meet his friend to go out for dinner

705
00:35:04,832 --> 00:35:07,792
Speaker 1: a Planet Hollywood. That he just kind of came up

706
00:35:07,832 --> 00:35:11,992
Speaker 1: with another alibi and floated that with police about visiting

707
00:35:11,991 --> 00:35:15,712
Speaker 1: a sex worker via taxi, and that kind of explained

708
00:35:15,712 --> 00:35:17,832
Speaker 1: away why his car was in the driveway at the

709
00:35:17,872 --> 00:35:20,752
Speaker 1: time when his aunt had popped around. Like, what do

710
00:35:20,792 --> 00:35:23,071
Speaker 1: you do when someone comes back and says, oh, by

711
00:35:23,112 --> 00:35:26,312
Speaker 1: the way, that alibi isn't right, this is the real one.

712
00:35:26,431 --> 00:35:29,471
Speaker 2: You make sure you record it and get them to

713
00:35:29,471 --> 00:35:31,511
Speaker 2: commit to it, so it's not just him telling them.

714
00:35:32,112 --> 00:35:34,752
Speaker 3: It had to have been recorded in a proper interview.

715
00:35:34,632 --> 00:35:37,752
Speaker 2: And then each version that he gave that proved to

716
00:35:37,792 --> 00:35:41,272
Speaker 2: be untrue is yet another nail in the coffin. So

717
00:35:41,312 --> 00:35:43,471
Speaker 2: you need to get them to say it, document the

718
00:35:43,511 --> 00:35:45,352
Speaker 2: fact that they've said it, and how they said it,

719
00:35:45,352 --> 00:35:46,752
Speaker 2: and when they said it, and where they said it

720
00:35:46,792 --> 00:35:49,751
Speaker 2: and so on, and then go about proving that that

721
00:35:49,872 --> 00:35:53,192
Speaker 2: version is also not true, and again it's just another

722
00:35:53,272 --> 00:35:53,952
Speaker 2: nail in the coffin.

723
00:35:54,031 --> 00:35:55,072
Speaker 3: Unfortunately for him.

724
00:35:55,031 --> 00:35:57,271
Speaker 1: It's funny because he did try and bribe a taxi driver,

725
00:35:57,632 --> 00:35:59,552
Speaker 1: but it's pretty easy to find out where a taxi

726
00:35:59,632 --> 00:36:02,792
Speaker 1: driver has been on any given day in time, right.

727
00:36:02,792 --> 00:36:06,832
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Look, he wasn't a criminal genius. I think

728
00:36:06,832 --> 00:36:09,431
Speaker 2: a lot of what he did was silly really or

729
00:36:09,471 --> 00:36:11,392
Speaker 2: probably immature it might be the right word.

730
00:36:11,431 --> 00:36:11,832
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.

731
00:36:11,911 --> 00:36:13,671
Speaker 2: I mean, if he was a great man, I don't

732
00:36:13,712 --> 00:36:15,072
Speaker 2: know that he would have done some of these silly

733
00:36:15,112 --> 00:36:16,431
Speaker 2: things and thinking that he was going to pull the

734
00:36:16,471 --> 00:36:20,591
Speaker 2: all over the police eyes and so on. But look,

735
00:36:20,632 --> 00:36:22,232
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it was just a tragedy.

736
00:36:22,232 --> 00:36:23,552
Speaker 2: The whole thing was just a tragedy.

737
00:36:23,951 --> 00:36:26,631
Speaker 1: When was the decision made to bring in an undercover

738
00:36:26,752 --> 00:36:29,712
Speaker 1: police officer to try and catch him out because he

739
00:36:29,792 --> 00:36:32,472
Speaker 1: did he posted as a gang member, because apparently Sef

740
00:36:32,551 --> 00:36:35,431
Speaker 1: was quite intrigued by telling people that he was in

741
00:36:35,471 --> 00:36:39,431
Speaker 1: some kind of gang that was called White Dragon Asians

742
00:36:39,511 --> 00:36:42,352
Speaker 1: or something he'd made up, and that was a potential

743
00:36:42,352 --> 00:36:44,712
Speaker 1: line of inquiry at some stage that this might have

744
00:36:44,792 --> 00:36:47,511
Speaker 1: been a gang retaliation because he did mention it.

745
00:36:48,152 --> 00:36:49,392
Speaker 4: But when was the decision made to.

746
00:36:49,392 --> 00:36:53,392
Speaker 1: Bring in an undercover police officer to try and catch

747
00:36:53,431 --> 00:36:53,952
Speaker 1: him out.

748
00:36:54,112 --> 00:36:55,872
Speaker 2: Well, it was simply a way of probing him to

749
00:36:55,911 --> 00:36:58,912
Speaker 2: see whether he would react to that, which he didn't

750
00:36:58,911 --> 00:37:00,912
Speaker 2: go all that well, but it was worth a try

751
00:37:00,951 --> 00:37:03,272
Speaker 2: sort of thing. But I think the character I was

752
00:37:03,272 --> 00:37:05,552
Speaker 2: looking for, the life that he led was a Walter

753
00:37:05,672 --> 00:37:08,272
Speaker 2: Mitty type of life. It's about this person who lives

754
00:37:08,312 --> 00:37:12,072
Speaker 2: in a fantasy world and is very liberal with the truth,

755
00:37:12,471 --> 00:37:15,072
Speaker 2: telling people all sorts of things that simply aren't true.

756
00:37:15,592 --> 00:37:18,991
Speaker 2: And certainly in this case and in any murder case,

757
00:37:19,031 --> 00:37:21,272
Speaker 2: when you do come up someone who's a fantasist like that,

758
00:37:21,712 --> 00:37:24,911
Speaker 2: among other things, you simply have to take the story

759
00:37:25,031 --> 00:37:27,392
Speaker 2: and then tear it down. You have to follow up

760
00:37:27,592 --> 00:37:30,431
Speaker 2: and make sure that what has been said is in

761
00:37:30,471 --> 00:37:33,072
Speaker 2: fact not true and that it helps the case obviously

762
00:37:33,072 --> 00:37:33,671
Speaker 2: down the track.

763
00:37:34,112 --> 00:37:36,232
Speaker 1: What was interesting is that you said it wasn't overly successful,

764
00:37:36,232 --> 00:37:39,672
Speaker 1: but it did give police some clues because what that

765
00:37:39,752 --> 00:37:43,832
Speaker 1: undercover officer did was try and convince Seph to allow

766
00:37:43,872 --> 00:37:46,272
Speaker 1: someone who was already in prison to take the rap

767
00:37:46,551 --> 00:37:48,951
Speaker 1: for the murder. And so in doing that, he did

768
00:37:49,031 --> 00:37:52,312
Speaker 1: provide them with plans of the layout of the house.

769
00:37:53,112 --> 00:37:54,031
Speaker 4: And he did two things.

770
00:37:54,031 --> 00:37:56,792
Speaker 1: He wrote with his own handwriting on it and wrote

771
00:37:56,832 --> 00:37:59,792
Speaker 1: down the times of death of all three victims, something

772
00:37:59,832 --> 00:38:02,631
Speaker 1: the police had not released, and they managed to match

773
00:38:02,632 --> 00:38:05,951
Speaker 1: his handwriting to the graffiti on the wall. It's so

774
00:38:05,991 --> 00:38:08,632
Speaker 1: interesting how they have to pull all these ties together.

775
00:38:09,991 --> 00:38:12,712
Speaker 1: But still he did not admit to anything.

776
00:38:13,511 --> 00:38:16,752
Speaker 2: No, but I guess in a way, it's still really

777
00:38:16,911 --> 00:38:21,111
Speaker 2: really damning evidence. My sense when I reflected back on

778
00:38:21,192 --> 00:38:24,232
Speaker 2: it is that every time he opened his mouth, basically

779
00:38:24,232 --> 00:38:25,911
Speaker 2: he dug a deeper hole for himself.

780
00:38:26,632 --> 00:38:27,832
Speaker 3: He was never going to survive this.

781
00:38:28,392 --> 00:38:31,431
Speaker 2: But you know, I go back to the tragedy that

782
00:38:31,511 --> 00:38:34,552
Speaker 2: it was and the impact it's had on the family

783
00:38:34,592 --> 00:38:35,832
Speaker 2: and the community generally.

784
00:38:36,152 --> 00:38:37,312
Speaker 3: I think was really shocked.

785
00:38:37,312 --> 00:38:40,671
Speaker 2: In this nice suburban street where, on the face of it,

786
00:38:40,832 --> 00:38:44,792
Speaker 2: a lovely, loving family lived, there were Christians, and then

787
00:38:44,792 --> 00:38:45,832
Speaker 2: this terrible things happened.

788
00:38:45,872 --> 00:38:47,911
Speaker 3: Right now, Mets, It's just it was unfathomable.

789
00:38:48,392 --> 00:38:50,272
Speaker 1: Can we talk a little bit about his behavior with

790
00:38:50,392 --> 00:38:53,511
Speaker 1: money in the aftermath of the murders too, because that

791
00:38:53,551 --> 00:38:55,511
Speaker 1: can be quite telling. And this has been brought up

792
00:38:55,511 --> 00:38:58,152
Speaker 1: in the case of the Menendez brothers too in the

793
00:38:58,192 --> 00:39:01,911
Speaker 1: murder of their parents, in that he attempted to access

794
00:39:01,951 --> 00:39:05,272
Speaker 1: his inheritance as soon as possible. He sold off a

795
00:39:05,272 --> 00:39:07,951
Speaker 1: lot of his families item so that he could get

796
00:39:07,991 --> 00:39:11,072
Speaker 1: the money. He also got a victim of crime payout

797
00:39:11,112 --> 00:39:14,431
Speaker 1: at one stage, which he used to make upgrades to

798
00:39:14,471 --> 00:39:18,192
Speaker 1: his mum's car, which was interesting choice. And then he

799
00:39:18,232 --> 00:39:20,272
Speaker 1: also claimed to have a brain tumor and he asked

800
00:39:20,272 --> 00:39:22,392
Speaker 1: a family member to give him one hundred thousand dollars

801
00:39:22,471 --> 00:39:26,352
Speaker 1: to pay for life saving surgery. Behavior like that does

802
00:39:26,392 --> 00:39:29,631
Speaker 1: that set off warning signals to investigators?

803
00:39:30,152 --> 00:39:33,911
Speaker 2: I think it proved that for him not to realize

804
00:39:33,951 --> 00:39:35,991
Speaker 2: that one of the things that the police would want

805
00:39:36,031 --> 00:39:38,832
Speaker 2: to look at is what he does with money and

806
00:39:38,872 --> 00:39:43,071
Speaker 2: the inheritance and seeking it immediately after the event, it's

807
00:39:43,112 --> 00:39:47,471
Speaker 2: really dumb, actually just dumb, And obviously the result was

808
00:39:47,712 --> 00:39:50,431
Speaker 2: what he didn't want, which is that he was yet

809
00:39:50,471 --> 00:39:51,591
Speaker 2: more than that nails in the.

810
00:39:51,551 --> 00:39:52,272
Speaker 3: Coffin for him.

811
00:39:52,911 --> 00:39:55,592
Speaker 1: So he was eventually arrested. It's nearly a year later.

812
00:39:56,352 --> 00:39:59,392
Speaker 1: With all of this evidence gathered together, police obviously figure

813
00:39:59,392 --> 00:40:02,951
Speaker 1: they now have enough, yeah, to actually put him in

814
00:40:02,951 --> 00:40:05,591
Speaker 1: a court room. So at this point they then take

815
00:40:05,592 --> 00:40:09,151
Speaker 1: his fingerprints, Yeah, and this leads them to another discovery

816
00:40:09,192 --> 00:40:12,151
Speaker 1: which then kind of ties it back into this premeditated

817
00:40:12,152 --> 00:40:14,752
Speaker 1: plan to kill them with poison that we've talked about already,

818
00:40:15,312 --> 00:40:18,512
Speaker 1: because he'd been sending letters out to food manufacturers telling

819
00:40:18,551 --> 00:40:21,152
Speaker 1: them that some of their food was contaminated, and that

820
00:40:21,312 --> 00:40:23,512
Speaker 1: was a way he was going to try and tie

821
00:40:23,551 --> 00:40:24,991
Speaker 1: it back into his family's death.

822
00:40:25,312 --> 00:40:25,511
Speaker 3: Yeah.

823
00:40:26,152 --> 00:40:28,991
Speaker 2: Again, not smart at all. But the issue with the

824
00:40:28,991 --> 00:40:31,872
Speaker 2: fingerprints is my memory is that at the time he

825
00:40:31,991 --> 00:40:33,951
Speaker 2: was charged, he had not been in trouble with the

826
00:40:33,951 --> 00:40:34,752
Speaker 2: police before.

827
00:40:35,152 --> 00:40:37,112
Speaker 3: Therefore his fingerprints were not on record.

828
00:40:37,431 --> 00:40:39,872
Speaker 2: But even if they were, we would have to take

829
00:40:39,911 --> 00:40:42,832
Speaker 2: them again, obviously, because when you go before a jury,

830
00:40:42,951 --> 00:40:44,951
Speaker 2: you can't bring up the fact that someone had been

831
00:40:45,072 --> 00:40:48,032
Speaker 2: charged before and therefore we had the fingerprints on the file.

832
00:40:48,352 --> 00:40:49,712
Speaker 2: So you have to do it in a way that

833
00:40:49,712 --> 00:40:52,951
Speaker 2: does not disclosed to a jury that this person has

834
00:40:52,991 --> 00:40:55,031
Speaker 2: done something in the past because it may influence their

835
00:40:55,031 --> 00:40:58,872
Speaker 2: decision obviously their thoughts about the person. But again just

836
00:40:58,911 --> 00:41:01,392
Speaker 2: to really far fetched, dumb move.

837
00:41:02,672 --> 00:41:05,911
Speaker 1: What was Seph like during the court proceedings. Did he

838
00:41:06,031 --> 00:41:11,152
Speaker 1: any stage look remorseful? Did he try to explain anything

839
00:41:11,232 --> 00:41:14,352
Speaker 1: that had happened that sort of led police to further

840
00:41:15,072 --> 00:41:17,272
Speaker 1: question things that he'd done, Like what was his court

841
00:41:17,511 --> 00:41:18,232
Speaker 1: room behavior?

842
00:41:18,352 --> 00:41:21,032
Speaker 2: Like, I mean, I wasn't there, but there was certainly

843
00:41:21,112 --> 00:41:23,872
Speaker 2: it was discussed in the office and certainly with the investigators.

844
00:41:24,872 --> 00:41:27,872
Speaker 2: I don't recall anyone saying he was remorseful. If he was,

845
00:41:27,911 --> 00:41:30,352
Speaker 2: he would have pleaded guilty and not that there was

846
00:41:30,392 --> 00:41:35,392
Speaker 2: a certain amount of arrogance and sort of haughty behavior, thinking,

847
00:41:35,511 --> 00:41:37,511
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to beat this, nothing's going to

848
00:41:37,511 --> 00:41:40,911
Speaker 2: happen to me. And I think he's maintained that approach

849
00:41:41,192 --> 00:41:44,872
Speaker 2: pretty much throughout. There's still no contrition, and I think

850
00:41:44,911 --> 00:41:46,552
Speaker 2: the judge took that into account.

851
00:41:47,272 --> 00:41:49,352
Speaker 1: He even tried to access his inheritance to pay for

852
00:41:49,431 --> 00:41:52,112
Speaker 1: lawyers right, but ended up with a quart appointed lawyer

853
00:41:52,152 --> 00:41:52,511
Speaker 1: in the end.

854
00:41:52,551 --> 00:41:55,631
Speaker 3: Anyway, he did, Yeah, I.

855
00:41:55,592 --> 00:41:59,071
Speaker 2: Just I mean, it's sort of shameless, really it's the

856
00:41:59,112 --> 00:42:00,111
Speaker 2: only word I can think of.

857
00:42:00,872 --> 00:42:04,031
Speaker 1: So he's obviously appealed the sentence that was handed down

858
00:42:04,072 --> 00:42:09,111
Speaker 1: to him, and there's been attempts for special inquiries over

859
00:42:09,352 --> 00:42:12,352
Speaker 1: many years, the most recent one being twenty twenty one.

860
00:42:14,232 --> 00:42:17,911
Speaker 1: Where is Sef Gonzales now in that process? Can he

861
00:42:18,072 --> 00:42:21,272
Speaker 1: keep appealing? Can he potentially be released?

862
00:42:21,672 --> 00:42:23,272
Speaker 3: I think he's run out of options.

863
00:42:23,431 --> 00:42:26,631
Speaker 2: I don't think legally, just in the normal system with

864
00:42:26,752 --> 00:42:29,632
Speaker 2: appeals he can appeal anymore. He's failed in his appeals.

865
00:42:30,312 --> 00:42:32,511
Speaker 2: The only possible thing that may happen now is if

866
00:42:32,511 --> 00:42:34,192
Speaker 2: the government of the day says, well, we're going to

867
00:42:34,192 --> 00:42:36,192
Speaker 2: have an inquiry, but they would have to have a

868
00:42:36,232 --> 00:42:39,471
Speaker 2: bloody good reason to do that, and it simply doesn't exist.

869
00:42:40,392 --> 00:42:42,911
Speaker 2: My view is that, and as someone who's dealt in

870
00:42:43,112 --> 00:42:47,392
Speaker 2: with homicides for decades, it's a very strong case. It's

871
00:42:47,431 --> 00:42:51,792
Speaker 2: an exceptionally strong case, overwhelming evidence which is unable to

872
00:42:51,792 --> 00:42:54,671
Speaker 2: be rebutted. So at the end of the day, I mean,

873
00:42:55,991 --> 00:42:58,832
Speaker 2: maybe he may get an inquiry, but I'll be gobsmacked

874
00:42:58,832 --> 00:43:01,632
Speaker 2: if he did, because it would not be a rational decision.

875
00:43:01,872 --> 00:43:04,312
Speaker 1: What lessons do you think investigators might have learned from

876
00:43:04,312 --> 00:43:09,151
Speaker 1: this case when investigation subsequent murder cases. Do you think

877
00:43:09,192 --> 00:43:11,832
Speaker 1: there was a lesson in investigators from Sef Gonzales.

878
00:43:12,352 --> 00:43:14,392
Speaker 3: I mean they were two lessons.

879
00:43:14,471 --> 00:43:16,992
Speaker 2: Tenacity, certainly not giving up because there were some hurdles

880
00:43:16,991 --> 00:43:19,471
Speaker 2: along the way and he was never going.

881
00:43:19,352 --> 00:43:21,392
Speaker 3: To be cooperative or helpful or tell the truth in

882
00:43:21,431 --> 00:43:21,912
Speaker 3: any way.

883
00:43:22,272 --> 00:43:25,192
Speaker 2: But the second thing is that you can't sort of

884
00:43:25,392 --> 00:43:29,511
Speaker 2: draw conclusions and reach a position early on. You must

885
00:43:29,592 --> 00:43:34,631
Speaker 2: be methodical. You must be thorough, absolutely thorough, and go

886
00:43:34,752 --> 00:43:37,991
Speaker 2: through all the possibilities other than the person you suspect

887
00:43:38,272 --> 00:43:40,431
Speaker 2: and rule them out one by one, which is what

888
00:43:40,511 --> 00:43:42,872
Speaker 2: had to happen here. The idea of a gang, the

889
00:43:42,911 --> 00:43:45,631
Speaker 2: idea of overseas people sending someone to kill them, the

890
00:43:45,712 --> 00:43:48,031
Speaker 2: idea of a racist attack, the idea of a home

891
00:43:48,072 --> 00:43:49,392
Speaker 2: invasion with robbery.

892
00:43:49,072 --> 00:43:49,632
Speaker 3: As a motive.

893
00:43:50,031 --> 00:43:52,232
Speaker 2: All of those had to be ruled out logically and

894
00:43:52,352 --> 00:43:55,232
Speaker 2: rationally with all the evidence available to make sure that

895
00:43:55,272 --> 00:43:58,991
Speaker 2: the only option, as Sherlock Ames used to say, when

896
00:43:59,031 --> 00:44:03,272
Speaker 2: you rule out all the other improbable things, whatever's left

897
00:44:04,072 --> 00:44:06,352
Speaker 2: has to be the answer. I mean that was a

898
00:44:06,392 --> 00:44:08,832
Speaker 2: torturous prasis and very long pricess. That's why it took

899
00:44:08,872 --> 00:44:11,471
Speaker 2: twelve months or so for police to charge him, but

900
00:44:11,511 --> 00:44:14,072
Speaker 2: they did everything right. They actually went through the steps,

901
00:44:14,431 --> 00:44:16,551
Speaker 2: ruled everything out so that when they went to court

902
00:44:16,592 --> 00:44:17,992
Speaker 2: they were on very solid ground.

903
00:44:18,551 --> 00:44:20,872
Speaker 1: Just finally, I'd love to know how cases like the

904
00:44:20,872 --> 00:44:24,232
Speaker 1: Gonzales murders impacts you personally, because you see the worst

905
00:44:24,272 --> 00:44:26,432
Speaker 1: of the worst during your career. And when we find

906
00:44:26,431 --> 00:44:29,472
Speaker 1: out what Sef did in that time, his sister Claudine

907
00:44:29,551 --> 00:44:32,232
Speaker 1: died just after four pm, his mum more than an

908
00:44:32,232 --> 00:44:34,911
Speaker 1: hour later after she returned home from work, Dad sometime

909
00:44:34,951 --> 00:44:38,832
Speaker 1: after that. So this wasn't one fit of rage and passion.

910
00:44:39,352 --> 00:44:42,471
Speaker 1: This was over hours and in between he would have

911
00:44:42,551 --> 00:44:45,912
Speaker 1: stopped knowing what he's done and then done it again.

912
00:44:46,471 --> 00:44:47,511
Speaker 4: And then there's evidence that he.

913
00:44:47,431 --> 00:44:50,471
Speaker 1: Took a shower afterwards, got himself ready, went out to

914
00:44:50,511 --> 00:44:53,591
Speaker 1: dinner with a friend, explained away some other things about

915
00:44:53,592 --> 00:44:56,151
Speaker 1: why the phone was busy. Maybe it was them using

916
00:44:56,232 --> 00:44:58,591
Speaker 1: dial up internet when people couldn't contact.

917
00:44:58,272 --> 00:44:58,791
Speaker 4: Them at home.

918
00:44:58,872 --> 00:45:01,832
Speaker 1: Like he was really calm and collected, And that is

919
00:45:02,072 --> 00:45:05,832
Speaker 1: terrifying to know that someone can do those things and

920
00:45:05,872 --> 00:45:07,672
Speaker 1: then just walk back out into the world.

921
00:45:07,712 --> 00:45:10,392
Speaker 4: How do you feel knowing people like that exist?

922
00:45:10,792 --> 00:45:14,392
Speaker 2: Certainly, the impact on investigators is something that and as

923
00:45:14,431 --> 00:45:16,551
Speaker 2: time has gone by, I think we're much better at

924
00:45:17,112 --> 00:45:20,111
Speaker 2: recognizing that and doing something about it. One of the

925
00:45:20,152 --> 00:45:24,511
Speaker 2: things we brought in was mandatory sessions with the counseling.

926
00:45:25,112 --> 00:45:27,031
Speaker 2: At least I think my memory was either six months

927
00:45:27,112 --> 00:45:30,632
Speaker 2: or twelve months. They do see the worst of society,

928
00:45:30,752 --> 00:45:34,071
Speaker 2: human beings at their worst. They also see sometimes people

929
00:45:34,112 --> 00:45:36,031
Speaker 2: at their best, human beings at their best doing the

930
00:45:36,112 --> 00:45:39,352
Speaker 2: right thing, really taking risks to save others and so on.

931
00:45:39,872 --> 00:45:42,632
Speaker 2: But the important thing is to recognize that it's something

932
00:45:42,632 --> 00:45:45,511
Speaker 2: that has an impact on people, and therefore you must

933
00:45:45,511 --> 00:45:47,911
Speaker 2: make sure that you have a framework in place that

934
00:45:48,031 --> 00:45:52,832
Speaker 2: helps them deal with it adequately with professional help. I

935
00:45:52,872 --> 00:45:55,752
Speaker 2: spent three years as the chair of the Royal Commission

936
00:45:55,792 --> 00:45:58,991
Speaker 2: and the Defense and Military Suicide, as I said, and

937
00:45:59,551 --> 00:46:01,551
Speaker 2: we did that for the staff there. I made sure

938
00:46:01,551 --> 00:46:04,991
Speaker 2: that that was implemented and every two months all of

939
00:46:05,031 --> 00:46:06,991
Speaker 2: the staff had to have a session with the counselors,

940
00:46:06,991 --> 00:46:08,591
Speaker 2: and you had the same person all the way through

941
00:46:09,031 --> 00:46:10,872
Speaker 2: up to and including the three commissioners.

942
00:46:10,911 --> 00:46:12,511
Speaker 3: We agreed that we would do that as well.

943
00:46:13,192 --> 00:46:16,352
Speaker 2: So I guess while it's rough, and I must say

944
00:46:16,352 --> 00:46:19,152
Speaker 2: in my experience, particularly if I had to go to

945
00:46:19,152 --> 00:46:20,392
Speaker 2: a post mortem of a child.

946
00:46:20,551 --> 00:46:22,672
Speaker 3: It affected me a lot more than an adult. And

947
00:46:22,752 --> 00:46:23,431
Speaker 3: I don't know why.

948
00:46:23,592 --> 00:46:26,832
Speaker 2: I'm not a psychologist, but I mean I have kids.

949
00:46:26,872 --> 00:46:29,992
Speaker 2: Most of us do, and for some reason, post mortems

950
00:46:29,991 --> 00:46:33,712
Speaker 2: with children really affected me. But we recognized that and

951
00:46:33,752 --> 00:46:38,431
Speaker 2: we had things in place, such as regular account mandatory

952
00:46:38,471 --> 00:46:42,071
Speaker 2: counseling sessions that helped us to get through all of that,

953
00:46:42,832 --> 00:46:45,431
Speaker 2: and we did that also with the Royal Commission. But

954
00:46:45,592 --> 00:46:47,951
Speaker 2: the other thing that is very important is obviously the

955
00:46:49,272 --> 00:46:51,832
Speaker 2: feel in the office, if you like, of people being

956
00:46:51,832 --> 00:46:54,072
Speaker 2: there for each other, looking out for the person sitting

957
00:46:54,112 --> 00:46:57,272
Speaker 2: next to them, if they see signs of somebody who's struggling,

958
00:46:57,392 --> 00:46:59,392
Speaker 2: actually saying something and saying, look, do you want to

959
00:46:59,431 --> 00:47:01,951
Speaker 2: talk about it, Let's see what we can do to help,

960
00:47:01,991 --> 00:47:04,392
Speaker 2: and so on. And I know when the police and

961
00:47:04,431 --> 00:47:07,192
Speaker 2: it's a hard thing to say people have had mental

962
00:47:07,232 --> 00:47:09,872
Speaker 2: health issues because of all the badness that they've seen.

963
00:47:10,431 --> 00:47:14,112
Speaker 2: Even if they get better, it's still remembered by the colleagues.

964
00:47:14,471 --> 00:47:16,631
Speaker 2: This is a person who I struggled. Is not he

965
00:47:16,792 --> 00:47:20,432
Speaker 2: or she has once had a breakdown. It doesn't quite

966
00:47:20,911 --> 00:47:22,991
Speaker 2: go away. I don't know what the answer is to that,

967
00:47:23,031 --> 00:47:24,991
Speaker 2: but I think it's a societal problem. It's not just

968
00:47:25,031 --> 00:47:28,272
Speaker 2: in the uniform services. It's across society, and I hope

969
00:47:28,312 --> 00:47:30,751
Speaker 2: and pray that people take notice of some of the stuff.

970
00:47:30,792 --> 00:47:32,392
Speaker 2: They came out of the Royal Commission to try and

971
00:47:32,471 --> 00:47:34,272
Speaker 2: speak up more about this stuff and put their hand

972
00:47:34,352 --> 00:47:36,352
Speaker 2: up if they're not well and get help rather than

973
00:47:37,272 --> 00:47:37,991
Speaker 2: the alternative.

974
00:47:42,471 --> 00:47:45,511
Speaker 1: In August two thousand and four, the Gonzales family home

975
00:47:45,551 --> 00:47:48,431
Speaker 1: at six Collins Street, North Ride was finally sold for

976
00:47:48,511 --> 00:47:51,712
Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand dollars, but that wouldn't be the end

977
00:47:51,712 --> 00:47:55,471
Speaker 1: of its controversial life. The agents who sold the property

978
00:47:55,471 --> 00:47:58,671
Speaker 1: to the Lynn family, devout Buddhists who'd originally held from

979
00:47:58,672 --> 00:48:02,032
Speaker 1: Taiwan and who'd put down an eighty thousand dollars deposit

980
00:48:02,072 --> 00:48:05,192
Speaker 1: to secure their new home, didn't tell them about.

981
00:48:04,991 --> 00:48:05,992
Speaker 4: Its grizzly past.

982
00:48:06,712 --> 00:48:08,792
Speaker 1: The Lynn family did not want to live in a

983
00:48:08,792 --> 00:48:11,471
Speaker 1: home where three people had been brutally murdered, saying it

984
00:48:11,511 --> 00:48:14,711
Speaker 1: would be haunted and would bring the misfortune. They asked

985
00:48:14,712 --> 00:48:16,872
Speaker 1: to pull out of the deal, but the agents refused

986
00:48:16,872 --> 00:48:19,632
Speaker 1: to refund their deposits, saying they had done nothing wrong.

987
00:48:20,551 --> 00:48:23,152
Speaker 1: Those agents would be the first under new South Wales

988
00:48:23,232 --> 00:48:26,031
Speaker 1: law to be fined for misleading behavior in promoting the

989
00:48:26,072 --> 00:48:28,352
Speaker 1: property for sale, and they had to pay out more

990
00:48:28,352 --> 00:48:32,192
Speaker 1: than twenty thousand dollars in penalties. The home did eventually

991
00:48:32,192 --> 00:48:34,792
Speaker 1: sell again in two thousand and five for seven hundred

992
00:48:34,792 --> 00:48:37,872
Speaker 1: and twenty thousand dollars to pat Olivio and her partner.

993
00:48:37,632 --> 00:48:40,032
Speaker 4: Jeremy Mumford, who knew its dark story.

994
00:48:40,672 --> 00:48:43,312
Speaker 1: They told Women's Day in twenty seventeen that they still

995
00:48:43,312 --> 00:48:45,991
Speaker 1: get really annoyed when people constantly ask them about the

996
00:48:45,991 --> 00:48:49,152
Speaker 1: house's history, saying that all happened before their time and

997
00:48:49,192 --> 00:48:51,231
Speaker 1: that they've had nothing but a good feeling living there

998
00:48:51,911 --> 00:48:54,671
Speaker 1: to this day, though, true crime fanatics will still drive

999
00:48:54,712 --> 00:48:58,352
Speaker 1: past the address just to see the exact place that

1000
00:48:58,392 --> 00:49:02,752
Speaker 1: Sef Gonzalez decided to take the lives of his entire family.

1001
00:49:04,112 --> 00:49:06,431
Speaker 1: Thanks to Nick for telling us his story. True Rome

1002
00:49:06,511 --> 00:49:09,752
Speaker 1: Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy. The producer is

1003
00:49:09,872 --> 00:49:12,672
Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman, and we've had audio designed by Jacob Brown.

1004
00:49:13,031 --> 00:49:14,991
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

1005
00:49:15,072 --> 00:49:16,551
Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation.