Speaker 1: I've never heard of somebody on their death bed saying
Speaker 1: I wish I'd spent more time at my desk. So
Speaker 1: this day, as I sit here now, I still really
Speaker 1: can't believe that we got away with it, to have
Speaker 1: been in charge of a little living, breathing human and
Speaker 1: trying to keep them alive. And then you're adding the
Speaker 1: aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well,
Speaker 1: and that's mad stuff.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Seas the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing we work, then we rest, but
Speaker 2: rarely we play, and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,
Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
Speaker 2: fuentrepreneur who's walked the suits and heels to co found
Speaker 2: matcha Maiden and matcha Milk. CZA is a series of
Speaker 2: conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the
Speaker 2: self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. It's
Speaker 2: not the first time we've touched on this week's topic
Speaker 2: or guest on the show, but you'll all remember how
Speaker 2: absolutely captivated I was and still am by the Tai
Speaker 2: cave rescue since I read the book Against ol Odds
Speaker 2: by two of the incredible cave rescue divers that details
Speaker 2: just how much more impossible the mission actually was than
Speaker 2: I understood it through the media at the time, and
Speaker 2: I've been yapping about it to anyone who listened. I
Speaker 2: think is one of the most incredible stories to come
Speaker 2: out of humanity and have really been looking for an
Speaker 2: excuse to revisit it again on the show. Our conversation
Speaker 2: with doctor Richard Harris a few years ago is still
Speaker 2: one of our most popular episodes ever, and I've been
Speaker 2: hoping for a long time to get his diving partner, friend,
Speaker 2: co author and co Australian of the Year on the
Speaker 2: show for a while, and I'm so thrilled to finally
Speaker 2: have Craig Chalon here on the show today. Just as
Speaker 2: Harry was, Craig is wildly humble about his pivotal role
Speaker 2: in one of the most incredible stories in recent human history.
Speaker 2: It's as mind blowing as every hearing the details of
Speaker 2: how the unique combination of his passion for technical cave
Speaker 2: diving and his profession as a vet was just what
Speaker 2: the world needed to pull off the impossible. I don't
Speaker 2: think you can ever hear this story enough times or
Speaker 2: be any less inspired by its details. I mean, I've
Speaker 2: read so exhaustively about the facts, and they blow my
Speaker 2: mind every time. Coffee colored water, five hour dives, like,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, the fact that you are literally diving
Speaker 2: through space is so narrow that your shoulders and back
Speaker 2: at touching that, Oh, oh my gosh. I'll let you
Speaker 2: guys listen and enjoy as always. Well, many of us
Speaker 2: have met Craig through the media, you know, during this time,
Speaker 2: we kind of walked into a chapter of his life
Speaker 2: where it seems like he's the hero of humanity.
Speaker 3: I also loved.
Speaker 2: Going through the journey that it took him to get there,
Speaker 2: from country wa through his career as a vet before
Speaker 2: finally finding his love for technical cave diving. As you'll hear,
Speaker 2: Craig epitomizes many of the themes we love to explore
Speaker 2: and seize the a with such an interesting perspective on
Speaker 2: what he thinks is a necessary divide between your work
Speaker 2: and your hobbies, and the idea that you don't necessarily
Speaker 2: need to love your job. You can find your AA elsewhere.
Speaker 2: I found this one so fascinating and I hope you
Speaker 2: guys enjoy as much as I did.
Speaker 3: Craig Challon, Welcome to Seize the A.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 2: I'm so excited to have you here today and so
Speaker 2: grateful for your time because we get to talk about
Speaker 2: one of humanity's greatest stories and I think one of
Speaker 2: my favorite topics ever.
Speaker 1: No points for guessing what that is, but it is
Speaker 1: a pretty good story.
Speaker 2: I was actually listening to you on another show and
Speaker 2: the interviewer said, people will always remember where they were
Speaker 2: when man landed on the moon or JFK was assassinated.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of Australians remember where they
Speaker 2: were when they heard about the Tie Cave rescue. But
Speaker 2: I do think many of us didn't fully understand just
Speaker 2: how extraordinary the odds were at the time. The news
Speaker 2: brushed over so many of the details. Hence the name
Speaker 2: of You or Incredible Book Against All Odds co authored
Speaker 2: with doctor Richard Harris, who we have had the pleasure
Speaker 2: of also having on the show. It wasn't until I
Speaker 2: read your book that I fully grasped just how impossibly
Speaker 2: unlikely a successful rescue was and became totally obsessed with
Speaker 2: the details. So I'm really excited to revisit those today
Speaker 2: and the crazy intersection of your profession with your passion,
Speaker 2: as we did with Harry. But first I love to
Speaker 2: trace back through all the chapters that came before this one,
Speaker 2: the one that people meet you in now Australian of
Speaker 2: the Year. You have an Order of Australia Medal, lots
Speaker 2: of letters at the end of your name. You're a
Speaker 2: global hero. So can you take us back to the beginning?
Speaker 2: Who you started as in Thornleigh, Perth. What were you
Speaker 2: like growing up?
Speaker 1: Well? I think on reflection, I probably was born at
Speaker 1: the best time and place in the entirety of human history, really,
Speaker 1: Queen's sixty five in Australia, most particularly Western Australia. It's
Speaker 1: hard to imagine how it could get much better than that, really,
Speaker 1: So I guess I had a pretty ordinary, really childhood
Speaker 1: that was great, you know, I had a fantastic family environment.
Speaker 1: There were four kids in the family. I was the oldest.
Speaker 1: Great deal of encouragement from my parents to seek opportunities
Speaker 1: and to project the idea that there was so much
Speaker 1: out there to do. Lived in the city for the
Speaker 1: first part of my childhood, but in the latter part
Speaker 1: moved out to the country, and that was really the
Speaker 1: most fantastic thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds absolutely idyllic. Western Australia is one
Speaker 2: of the most beautiful parts of the world, and a
Speaker 2: country upbringing is so grounding. But I don't necessarily think
Speaker 2: it foreshadows that you will grow up and become a
Speaker 2: global hero and be welcomed with open arms by the
Speaker 2: King of Thailand and treated by royalty like royalty. It's
Speaker 2: not necessarily what you would expect from your pathway.
Speaker 3: Let alone the sort of unique combination of technical cave
Speaker 3: diving and veterinaries and that led you there. So what
Speaker 3: did you actually think you would be when you grow up?
Speaker 3: Did you have any idea? Do you dreamk this up?
Speaker 1: I don't know that I over did. It's as funny
Speaker 1: how everybody always wants you to have had a grand
Speaker 1: plan fear life, and life is not actually like that.
Speaker 1: Most of us are just doing what seems like the
Speaker 1: next logical thing. People respond to incentives and respond to
Speaker 1: their environment. I was just an ordinary kid, later on,
Speaker 1: an ordinary person doing my job, getting an education, and
Speaker 1: admittedly a hobby of cave diving is a little bit unusual.
Speaker 1: Most people have never really heard of it before the
Speaker 1: Ika rescue. But it was just a thing that I
Speaker 1: fell into. I'd always been interested in adventure sports, parachuting
Speaker 1: and climbing, and had a brief and unspectacular career in
Speaker 1: mountaineering and a few other things, as you do, and
Speaker 1: none of them really cold that much. And I did
Speaker 1: scuba diving as part of that course, but looking at
Speaker 1: fish was a bit boring. Really can only take so
Speaker 1: much of that. But like so many things in life,
Speaker 1: just right place, right time. I met someone that was
Speaker 1: a cave diving instructor. As soon as I heard about
Speaker 1: cave diving, I thought that is the thing for me.
Speaker 1: That was twenty seven years ago. Now that's been good.
Speaker 1: I'm a fantastic opportunity. I've now been all around the
Speaker 1: world and been to places that nobody has ever been before,
Speaker 1: and seen things that have never had human eyes laid
Speaker 1: on them. And of all the reasons that I really
Speaker 1: like cave diving, that is the one that really gets me.
Speaker 1: You never get tired of that.
Speaker 2: I mean, that sounds incredible and you're kind of selling
Speaker 2: it to me, but there are still lots of parts
Speaker 2: that terrify me, which we will get to. But I mean,
Speaker 2: this show is called CZZA because I think we do
Speaker 2: in society spend so much time looking for things like
Speaker 2: success and prestige, but then eventually often realize that all
Speaker 2: we're really looking for is yay. It's fulfillment, happiness and contentment.
Speaker 2: But it eludes people for so long because so few
Speaker 2: of us wake up knowing what we want to be
Speaker 2: and then become that and then you live happily ever after.
Speaker 3: It just so rarely happens that way.
Speaker 2: And when you don't know what you want to be,
Speaker 2: I mean, how do you even find out what you're
Speaker 2: passionate about? Like, how would you ever work out that
Speaker 2: you loved technical cave diving without meeting someone? It just
Speaker 2: seems so unlikely, and particularly as a VET, that doesn't
Speaker 2: really seem to connect with what you were already doing.
Speaker 2: But that's why I love your story so much. It's
Speaker 2: not only to tell people about hobbies and pursuits they
Speaker 2: might not have otherwise heard of in case it sparks
Speaker 2: something for them. But also because you can have a
Speaker 2: really unlikely combination of your passion and your profession. You
Speaker 2: can be a veterinary surgeon who loves technical cave diving,
Speaker 2: and that can lead you to be, you know, the
Speaker 2: only person that can help globally in a particular situation.
Speaker 3: So, I mean, how did the combination come about for you?
Speaker 3: Were you already a vet when you started cave diving?
Speaker 3: How did it all work?
Speaker 1: No, I know it'd be pretty sad existence as a job. Really.
Speaker 1: I think I'm a pretty firm believer in keep your
Speaker 1: work you work, and your hobbies your hobbies, and in
Speaker 1: my observation, people that try and mix the two it
Speaker 1: doesn't really go well. And I can particularly it's because
Speaker 1: I know a lot of diving instructors and cave diving instructors.
Speaker 1: To my mind, when they start doing that, it just
Speaker 1: spoils the whole thing because you never get to go
Speaker 1: out and do your own stuff. You're too mixed up
Speaker 1: in making a living, and it's not a particularly good
Speaker 1: living anyway. So you're better off to do what you do,
Speaker 1: and I do think that most people's lives there's probably
Speaker 1: room enough to be good at two things. It's really hard.
Speaker 1: You certainly have to have a great deal more talent
Speaker 1: and gents that I've got to do more than that
Speaker 1: and haven't really got the time. So hopefully your work
Speaker 1: is one of them those of us that are afflicted
Speaker 1: with having to work for a living, which is the
Speaker 1: greater part of the population. And then there's something else
Speaker 1: as well, and you know, whatever it is, your hobby
Speaker 1: or your sport or an alternative occupation or whatever. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's completely up to the individual, but it's really worthwhile
Speaker 1: devoting yourself to developing skills that are not something that
Speaker 1: you are then are living from, just for fun and
Speaker 1: satisfaction and challenge.
Speaker 2: That's such a great SoundBite for this show, because I
Speaker 2: think there is, you know, in the pursuit of your yay,
Speaker 2: a lot of narrative around loving your job, and lots
Speaker 2: of people do love their job, but it's discouraging for
Speaker 2: those who maybe don't and find their passion in their
Speaker 2: hobbies instead. And I think you're a wonderful example and
Speaker 2: that's a great encouragement that they can be kept separate,
Speaker 2: and sometimes there is a great benefit in doing so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you've been passionate in love with your work.
Speaker 1: It's a nice sounding idea, and you're on you or
Speaker 1: anybody else. I'm very happy for you. But there's a
Speaker 1: lot of pretty mundane jobs out there and somebody has
Speaker 1: to do them. The other thing is that, no matter
Speaker 1: how much you like it, if you're facing up to
Speaker 1: thirty or forty or more years of doing that, then
Speaker 1: there's going to really come a time where you want
Speaker 1: to move on to something else. So you should leave
Speaker 1: an opening in your life. People say I don't know
Speaker 1: what I'd do if I retired, and that just seems
Speaker 1: crazy to me. I mean, what have you been going
Speaker 1: to work for your whole life for. I've never heard
Speaker 1: of somebody on their deathbed saying I wish I'd spent
Speaker 1: more time at my desk.
Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred percent. I say that all the time.
Speaker 2: I've never met someone who thinks I wish I worked more.
Speaker 2: I wish I did less of my hobbies. I wish
Speaker 2: I made less time for my family and for joy
Speaker 2: and for the things that really light you up. What
Speaker 2: I think is the greatest shame is when people do
Speaker 2: get to sort of that chapter in their lives, like retirement,
Speaker 2: and they don't know what their passions are. It's not
Speaker 2: that they haven't made time for them, but they've never
Speaker 2: even explored who they are enough, because their profession does become.
Speaker 3: The entirety of their identity.
Speaker 2: So speaking to Harry and now speaking to you is
Speaker 2: wonderful because you have dedicated so much time resources, Like
Speaker 2: it's expensive. You know, it's not just sort of a
Speaker 2: hobby where you go and do fingerpainting whatever, Like, it's
Speaker 2: a big undertaking to travel the world to go and
Speaker 2: find these places, and there's a lot of training and equipment.
Speaker 2: I love that that is all for something that isn't
Speaker 2: your job. It's purely because you enjoy it. But before
Speaker 2: we get to the story, I do want to touch
Speaker 2: quickly on your time as a vet, which, even though
Speaker 2: it wasn't necessarily.
Speaker 3: Your passion, did you enjoy it.
Speaker 2: In my mind, it's one of the best jobs in
Speaker 2: the world because you get to work with animals. But
Speaker 2: I actually had a couple of followers mentioned and sort
Speaker 2: of point out to me that it can be incredibly
Speaker 2: tough and there are often some tough mental healths around
Speaker 2: the profession.
Speaker 3: So what was your experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's well, it's a complicated situation. We could
Speaker 1: talk for a whole day on this. I should open
Speaker 1: by saying I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so
Speaker 1: I can only speak for what I've seen with my
Speaker 1: own eyes. I don't know that it's really any worth
Speaker 1: in the vetory profession than in society generally. There is
Speaker 1: some information around the suicide rates are higher amongst vets,
Speaker 1: but there's no real supporting evidence as to why that is.
Speaker 1: And it seems the most obvious explanation to me is
Speaker 1: that vets have got means to do it. Thats are
Speaker 1: They're privileged members of a privileged society here in Australia.
Speaker 1: I mean, you get to do work that is meaningful.
Speaker 1: Can't really top looking after animals, can you. That's the
Speaker 1: trump card of everything than helping people as well, with
Speaker 1: professions full of nice people. So I don't really get it.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying shouldn't be taken to display any lack
Speaker 1: of sympathy for people that have had problems. But why
Speaker 1: that should be and whether it is any worse in
Speaker 1: the veteran profession, I don't really know, just trying to
Speaker 1: give you an honest opinion, But I don't want to
Speaker 1: look insensitive, because I'm not insensitive to people suffering.
Speaker 2: No, I really appreciate the honesty of that perspective and
Speaker 2: think it's really positive that you haven't had that experience
Speaker 2: of the industry and it has felt like a privilege.
Speaker 2: Did you enjoy your time as a vet?
Speaker 1: I did? It was great. I had a couple of
Speaker 1: careers in one I started out doing clinical work, then
Speaker 1: as I progressed, I built quite a large group of practices,
Speaker 1: and so in the latter part of my career, for
Speaker 1: probably the last ten years or so, I was really
Speaker 1: more of a management VET than a clinic I mean,
Speaker 1: as a clinician, I was okay. I was a passable VET.
Speaker 1: I wasn't the most fantastic fit in the world. Probably
Speaker 1: my talents lay more in managing other vets and providing
Speaker 1: an environment for them to be the best that they could.
Speaker 1: In my own humble opinion, I was fairly handy at
Speaker 1: that I met with some success.
Speaker 2: So I was lucky, well wonderful though that you did
Speaker 2: have a great career, but that alongside in this parallel world,
Speaker 2: you were able to excel extraordinarily at being a cave diver.
Speaker 2: So let's turn to the passion because obviously this is
Speaker 2: such a yay for you and has remained that, like
Speaker 2: you said, many people don't even know what cave diving is,
Speaker 2: just assuming and I think it was the same in
Speaker 2: the case of a Thaire cave rescue, just assuming that
Speaker 2: generally skilled qualified divers can do cave dives. But it's
Speaker 2: quite a specific technical kind of diving. So when you
Speaker 2: first discovered what it was, what was your first dive? Like,
Speaker 2: where do you go from there? Is there a universe?
Speaker 2: Like you can you know, you can do your scuba
Speaker 2: diving certification. Is it like that where you find a
Speaker 2: school and you get a teacher and you get a
Speaker 2: certificate and then you can just go and do all
Speaker 2: these places? They sound very hard to access. Is there
Speaker 2: like a association that allocates you dives you're allowed to do?
Speaker 2: Are they ranked?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: How does it all work when you first get into it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when I began, there was a lot more informal, really,
Speaker 1: and there was an association there would defined courses that
Speaker 1: you did, and that that's how you start out. I mean,
Speaker 1: it can be quite a good diver in open water,
Speaker 1: but that does not qualify you anyway, and it's highly
Speaker 1: dangerous to just decide to give it a go. There's
Speaker 1: a few obvious things. The most important one, of course,
Speaker 1: is that if something goes wrong, you can't just hit
Speaker 1: the up button and go back to the surface because
Speaker 1: there is no surface. There's rock above you, and so
Speaker 1: you have to be able to deal with any contingency
Speaker 1: not being able to see. If you get lost, you
Speaker 1: need to get unlost again and find your way out.
Speaker 1: Any equipment failures, you need to have a plan and
Speaker 1: skills and the cool head to deal with them.
Speaker 3: I do not have that.
Speaker 1: It's not for everyone. A lot of people temperamentally aren't
Speaker 1: suited to it, but it certainly doesn't require any special powers.
Speaker 1: All the people that do it just ordinary people. Really,
Speaker 1: you need to go out and get the training. First
Speaker 1: of all. There's a long history of people that have
Speaker 1: come unstuck when they've just decided to give it a
Speaker 1: bit of a go, So I cannot emphasize that enough.
Speaker 1: But I was really lucky in that I met someone
Speaker 1: who was an instructor but also became a bit of
Speaker 1: a mentor to me. Took me on some expeditions way
Speaker 1: before I was probably ready to be doing that. Within
Speaker 1: a few months really of starting cave diving, I was
Speaker 1: doing exploration and laying line, as we call it home,
Speaker 1: putting guideline in a new cave. When you have that
Speaker 1: sort of beginning, it's really to not have enthusiasm for
Speaker 1: more of it.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: I love watching people on the show go from talking
Speaker 2: about just normal questions like their childhood and whatever to
Speaker 2: the thing they really love.
Speaker 3: And the whole facial expression changes.
Speaker 2: It's like this light that you get when you talk
Speaker 2: about something you're really passionate about it, particularly when you're
Speaker 2: thinking about kind of the early days. I love watching
Speaker 2: that transformation in your body language getting excited about it.
Speaker 1: I'm so transparent, Sarah.
Speaker 2: It's wonderful to see the joy that you get from this.
Speaker 2: And what fascinates me so much is that coming back
Speaker 2: to that kind of societal pressure, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: not just pressure within people's careers about certain jobs that
Speaker 2: are worth more than others, or that look more successful
Speaker 2: than others. I think in the realm of hobbies and
Speaker 2: passions and just general interests, there are things that you know,
Speaker 2: people think are like normal and things that people think
Speaker 2: aren't normal, and we spend a lot of time trying
Speaker 2: to be like other people. I love that if you
Speaker 2: like cave diving, you like or really you spend a
Speaker 2: lot of effort going to do a pursuit that most
Speaker 2: people would describe as their nightmare. And that's the best part. Like,
Speaker 2: I think it's such a good reminder that everyone enjoys
Speaker 2: different things. Something that would make someone else crumble into
Speaker 2: a ball of fear is someone else's joy, Like it's
Speaker 2: meant to be like that. We're all composed of different things.
Speaker 2: Like you said, you don't think of yourself as particularly special,
Speaker 2: but you must be wide in a way where you
Speaker 2: can be cool, not just cool and calm in water
Speaker 2: that you can't see through, in tunnels that like are
Speaker 2: so claustrophobic to the average person, and not just.
Speaker 3: Calm, but you enjoy that. I love that it's possible
Speaker 3: for us to have.
Speaker 2: Such a broad range of interest as humanity, and your
Speaker 2: hobbies don't need to look like anyone else's. I think
Speaker 2: it's the point I'm trying to make.
Speaker 3: I love that, Well, it.
Speaker 1: Would be a pretty boring old world if we were
Speaker 1: all the same, wouldn't it. And what I don't get
Speaker 1: is people that don't really try anything. Just get out
Speaker 1: there and you don't know what it is that where
Speaker 1: your destiny lies, then just do something. Get started. At
Speaker 1: least you'll require some skills and knowledge and meet some
Speaker 1: new people. If it's not really for you, then go
Speaker 1: and do something else. Nobody's got a lifetime long enough
Speaker 1: to try it, or so if someone sets out to
Speaker 1: be World crochet Champion, you know, good luck to them. Really,
Speaker 1: I admire that it just be the best that you
Speaker 1: can be.
Speaker 2: I love that I was a corporate lawyer beforehand, and
Speaker 2: when I sort of was asked, you know, what would
Speaker 2: you do instead? Like, you know, at times when i'd
Speaker 2: express it, I wasn't particularly happy doing what I would do.
Speaker 2: They'd be like, well, what are your passions and what
Speaker 2: are your interest and I'd say, well, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't know what my passions are. And I think
Speaker 2: someone one day sat.
Speaker 3: Me down and said, well, like what are you trying?
Speaker 3: Like what are you signed up for? And I was like,
Speaker 3: oh nothing, and so that well.
Speaker 2: How are you going to figure out what you're passionate
Speaker 2: about if you're not going out and trying something like
Speaker 2: you need to be actively exploring who you are to.
Speaker 3: Figure out what you like and what you don't like.
Speaker 2: And even finding out that you don't like something, I
Speaker 2: think is a good amount of data to help you
Speaker 2: get closer to the things that you do like. So
Speaker 2: I love that advice to just go crochet, go and
Speaker 2: do pottery, like figure out what it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, when I look back, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not a person for regrets at all. I think
Speaker 1: that regret is the most destructive human emotion. You just
Speaker 1: do what you do at the time and make the
Speaker 1: best decisions that you can based on the information that
Speaker 1: you've got. But you know, if I was going to
Speaker 1: regret one thing, it would be that when I was younger,
Speaker 1: I just wasted so much time. You think that you've
Speaker 1: got all the time in the world and that it'll
Speaker 1: never catch up with you. And I'm fifty nine years
Speaker 1: old now, so I'm not done yet. I've still had
Speaker 1: a few more dives left in me. But I look
Speaker 1: back and I think I could have achieved so much
Speaker 1: more if I hadn't just pissed time up against the wall. Really,
Speaker 1: you're not going to have big regretting having done too much.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: Often said, I make decisions based on a future regret
Speaker 2: management matrix more than anything else, and like, will future
Speaker 2: me regret this even if current me is like, fuck no,
Speaker 2: I don't want to do that. Like future me would
Speaker 2: rather regret doing it than having not done it and
Speaker 2: letting the time pass anyway, because like the clock is
Speaker 2: ticking no matter what, so you might as well have
Speaker 2: done the experience. It'd rather regret having done it. And
Speaker 2: it is always such a random sequence of decisions like
Speaker 2: that that lead you to the pivotal moments in your life.
Speaker 2: Which brings me back to the story I've been so
Speaker 2: excited to chat to you about, and I mean one
Speaker 2: of the parts I love the most. There are so
Speaker 2: many parts, but it is that unique intersection of your
Speaker 2: passion for technical cave diving and your job as a vet.
Speaker 2: Like in all the world, the entire world of people
Speaker 2: and all the different combinations of skills that exist, with
Speaker 2: so many different options of how to solve this problem
Speaker 2: that seemed impossible, that it was you and Harry who
Speaker 2: got brought in from somewhere like I don't even know
Speaker 2: how they even found you. I love that it wasn't
Speaker 2: necessarily your professions, but it was your hobbies that made
Speaker 2: you the perfect people for this one thing that happened
Speaker 2: during your lifetimes. Like that, just it blows my mind
Speaker 2: that they know, they called navy seals, they called other governments,
Speaker 2: they called blah blah, and it was these two lads
Speaker 2: from Australia.
Speaker 3: Doing something that they loved.
Speaker 2: It isn't even their job that could do the dive
Speaker 2: technically enough like that, just it just blows my mind,
Speaker 2: still blows my mind.
Speaker 1: Well, I should hasten to say that there are other
Speaker 1: people involved as well, it wasn't just me and Harry
Speaker 1: really to how they found us is as you get
Speaker 1: higher up the food chain and cave diving, it's a
Speaker 1: pretty small group of people. Really. Everybody knows each other
Speaker 1: or knows of each other at least, and so it
Speaker 1: doesn't really take long to make a list of who
Speaker 1: you would really want on a mission like that. Two
Speaker 1: British guys were Extanton and John Balanthon were the first
Speaker 1: people on side of the first recognized cave divers on site,
Speaker 1: and Harry and I know them quite well, particularly Rick.
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of diving with him over the years,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I wouldn't have taken too much imagination.
Speaker 2: And yet it did take a lot of imagination to
Speaker 2: come up with the solution that you did end up
Speaker 2: coming up with. So I think what I find so
Speaker 2: fascinating about this whole thing is that in the media,
Speaker 2: it did appear this whole thing has happened. These boys
Speaker 2: entered a cave, we don't know the cave got flooded out,
Speaker 2: we don't know if they're alive, and it was all
Speaker 2: you know for a couple of days. Kind of it
Speaker 2: felt like a blip on the radar. Then suddenly they
Speaker 2: were out. Like in our media, that's kind of how
Speaker 2: it seemed. It was like big problem holding breath, people
Speaker 2: have gone over, experts of debt with it.
Speaker 3: They're out.
Speaker 2: And then when I read the book, the subtleties of
Speaker 2: everyone involved had moments of thinking it was over. It
Speaker 2: was impossible, Like I don't think it was conveyed to
Speaker 2: the lay person in Australia, how touch and go the
Speaker 2: situation was, how impossible and unlike you said, like the
Speaker 2: book is called against all odds, Like I just didn't
Speaker 2: understand that at the time. So hearing the details has
Speaker 2: been my favorite story.
Speaker 3: Ever to hear.
Speaker 2: So can you talk us through You didn't even get
Speaker 2: there till day thirteen. Elon Musk had already been and
Speaker 2: gone talk us through the situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's I mean, it didn't seem all that
Speaker 1: different to us either. I developed slowly and we didn't
Speaker 1: know what was going to happen. And I mean so
Speaker 1: this day, as I sit here now, I still really
Speaker 1: can't believe that we got away with it. Wow, it
Speaker 1: was pretty radical stuff to be bringing these kids out
Speaker 1: when it was first suggested that there would be a
Speaker 1: cave diving rescue through two point two kilometers of a
Speaker 1: fairly gnally dive. Really, for us doing it just by ourselves,
Speaker 1: without taking patience out and rescuing someone, it still would
Speaker 1: have been a pretty sporting afternoon out really. But to
Speaker 1: have be in charge of a little living, breathing human
Speaker 1: and trying to keep them alive, and then you're adding
Speaker 1: the aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just that's mad stuff. If somebody had
Speaker 1: come up with this as a script and given it
Speaker 1: to me to read, I would have thought, nah, mate,
Speaker 1: it's too far fetched, going to tone it down a
Speaker 1: little bit, but that's the way it was, and to
Speaker 1: have gotten all thirteen of them out just still seems unbelievable.
Speaker 1: We were one hundred percent prepared for casualties. It just
Speaker 1: seemed fanciful for me me that we'd get them all out.
Speaker 1: The only thing that really motivated us was that we knew,
Speaker 1: we were convinced that if they stayed in the cave,
Speaker 1: they were doomed. There was no chance of survival. It
Speaker 1: was going to be months for the cave dried out
Speaker 1: and the water stop flowing. So we had to give
Speaker 1: it a go. And even if we just got one
Speaker 1: out alive, that still would have been an improvement on
Speaker 1: none of them surviving, so that was worth it. But
Speaker 1: it's still weighs fairly heavily upon your shoulders at the time,
Speaker 1: thinking that we might end up dragging them all out
Speaker 1: of the cave in body bags would not have been
Speaker 1: a really very cool scenario.
Speaker 2: So again, I think it did seem like we called
Speaker 2: in the experts. The experts did their thing. You brought
Speaker 2: them out amazing, But I mean, I didn't even know
Speaker 2: that before you guys had had the call up. Like first,
Speaker 2: there was a big period of time where they hadn't
Speaker 2: even found the boys. So, you know, so for everyone listening,
Speaker 2: if you didn't know, the boys went in when the
Speaker 2: cave was dry, so they were able to walk in,
Speaker 2: and there was you know, obviously wasn't flooded at the
Speaker 2: time they went in, and then it flooded and the
Speaker 2: chambers sort of all filled up, So they were a
Speaker 2: very very long way in from the entrance where they started,
Speaker 2: and they obviously got stuck there and couldn't get out.
Speaker 2: It took you know, a lot of days to even
Speaker 2: figure out that where they were if they were alive,
Speaker 2: and then there was a scram or just sort of
Speaker 2: figure out how you would ever get them out. I
Speaker 2: read or I think I heard you on a different
Speaker 2: podcast saying that, I mean, you got the call with
Speaker 2: two hours before.
Speaker 3: You had to get on the plane.
Speaker 2: Had you been waiting for the call? Did you know
Speaker 2: that they were thinking about because their initial plans weren't
Speaker 2: to do a cave dive. Were they was there a
Speaker 2: submarine plan?
Speaker 1: There were heaps of plans. It seemed like people from
Speaker 1: all over the world were just popping their heads up
Speaker 1: with bright ideas, and it was pretty easy to present
Speaker 1: yourself as an expert in that environment at the time,
Speaker 1: so there was all sorts of stuff going on, but
Speaker 1: all those other plans just one by one they fell away,
Speaker 1: were eliminated as implausible, are going to take too much time,
Speaker 1: and it just more and more looked like cave diving.
Speaker 1: But days were ticking by. Harry and I are still
Speaker 1: sitting here in Australia, and even on the day before
Speaker 1: we left, it looked like we weren't going to get
Speaker 1: a guernsey and that we weren't really wanted. Up there
Speaker 1: just seemed to be drifting, and it was pretty chaotic
Speaker 1: up there as well, because nobody knew what to do.
Speaker 1: The taie authorities were a bit lost about what the
Speaker 1: best course of action was, and I can't really blame
Speaker 1: them for that because there's not really any precedent for
Speaker 1: this situation. Of all the things that the governance might
Speaker 1: have thought of, this was not really on the list,
Speaker 1: so I certainly can't hold that against them. But it
Speaker 1: all just really came together over a few hours, and yeah,
Speaker 1: you're quite right. We got the call to get yourself
Speaker 1: to the airport, so it had to very hastily because
Speaker 1: we were all packed up for another dive trip. So
Speaker 1: I had to unpack, reconfigure, throw some stuff in a bag,
Speaker 1: and just go. It was pretty frantic at the time.
Speaker 2: Do you put your hand up? Like, because I think,
Speaker 2: you know, normal channels of governments and militaries, you'd kind
Speaker 2: of be looking at seals and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: But that having not been successful, how do you guys
Speaker 2: put your hand up and use the channels? Or were
Speaker 2: you just waiting for someone to suggest you, like, do.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? How did the kind of
Speaker 3: logistics work?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I know. We were totally volunteered. We were super cane.
Speaker 1: We've been interested in cave rescue for quite a long time,
Speaker 1: and the cave diving rescues that don't come around very often.
Speaker 1: There's only three or depending on how you define it,
Speaker 1: for cave diving rescues ever occurred, including this one in Wow.
Speaker 1: And so I was prepared in my own mind to
Speaker 1: go a whole lifetime without ever going getting to do one.
Speaker 1: So when opportunity knocks, your best answer the door. Really Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we didn't have to be talked into it.
Speaker 2: So you took all your own equipment. This was all
Speaker 2: stuff you had for your own pursues. And you just
Speaker 2: had to kind of neck it all on over there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, somewhat. I took what we thought we would need.
Speaker 1: As it turned out, we start, we use slightly different equipment,
Speaker 1: so gathered a bit up when we're over there, but
Speaker 1: essentially it was our stuff. Yeah, wow, and throw it in.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty used to packing for trips by now after
Speaker 1: twenty seven years, so that didn't take very long.
Speaker 2: Yeah, although I imagine it's never been such a quite
Speaker 2: high stakes environment. So can you talk us through the
Speaker 2: actual nitty gritty of the dive itself? Because again, when
Speaker 2: I heard that there were divers, I kind of just
Speaker 2: thought you were going down and that your water is
Speaker 2: clear in most cases, you know. I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're swimming and look at the fishes, but you know
Speaker 2: it was coffee colored water. You said two point two
Speaker 2: k's in and obviously then you have to come back out.
Speaker 3: So someone had.
Speaker 2: Gone all the way in, and are they laying like
Speaker 2: a guy for like, how you know where you're going?
Speaker 2: How tight were the kind of holes that you need
Speaker 2: to get through? How long was it in and out?
Speaker 2: Like for us two k's in and out? I don't
Speaker 2: sort of know what that translates.
Speaker 3: To like, yeah, to talk us through the stats of
Speaker 3: the dive.
Speaker 1: So I think the most pertinent thing for people to
Speaker 1: realize is that we couldn't really see anything at all.
Speaker 1: The water is filled with silt and mud, and occasionally
Speaker 1: you just get a bit of a glimpse of some
Speaker 1: clear water. There were a couple of side passages that
Speaker 1: were bringing in clear water, but the main river channel
Speaker 1: everything was done by feel, and so we always place
Speaker 1: a guideline to follow in cave diving. That is the
Speaker 1: number one absolute cast iron rule of cave diving. That
Speaker 1: you have a continuous guideline from the surface, so you
Speaker 1: can follow that and that's enough information to get you
Speaker 1: in and get you out again. And so it just
Speaker 1: start at the beginning. I mean, it was two point
Speaker 1: two kilometers in, but that's not for what we do normally.
Speaker 1: That's not that big a deal. I've been far further
Speaker 1: than that. So the day before the rescue started, Harry
Speaker 1: and I did a WRECKI dive in there just so
Speaker 1: we could experience the cave for ourselves and see how
Speaker 1: difficult was going to be, and also to suss the
Speaker 1: kids out, see how they were going as well, and
Speaker 1: just what sort of condition that they were in. And
Speaker 1: it took us about two hours to get in there
Speaker 1: the first time.
Speaker 3: Two hours one way, that's one way to get in.
Speaker 1: We had a couple of hours with the kids there
Speaker 1: and just chatting to them, telling them what was well.
Speaker 1: We had a letter written in tie with us that
Speaker 1: explained what was going to happen, and the course was
Speaker 1: pretty much set for the next day by then, and
Speaker 1: so that was read out to the kids. They are
Speaker 1: just oh, yeah, right, you're going to have an anesthetic
Speaker 1: and dive through the cave whatevers needed. And they were
Speaker 1: really cool. These kids, they get ten out of ten
Speaker 1: from me, no doubt. They were tough little customers. They
Speaker 1: get a lot of credit. You know, with survival, A
Speaker 1: big part of it and when you're going to survive
Speaker 1: or not is just being equal to the task and
Speaker 1: making the decision that you are going to survive. The
Speaker 1: rest follows from that. And you hear these stories about
Speaker 1: people just giving up and the end is inevitable in
Speaker 1: that case, but I think those kids were pretty determined
Speaker 1: that wasn't going to happen to them. That was the
Speaker 1: trip in and when we're coming out, when had kids
Speaker 1: with us. Our estimate, which turned out to be pretty accurate,
Speaker 1: was that it was going to take three hours to
Speaker 1: get out with them, given that they had to have
Speaker 1: top ups of anesthetic on the way out, and just
Speaker 1: you generally looked after.
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, there's so many I mean, I already
Speaker 2: know all this, but it just it still gets me
Speaker 2: every time. It's just so so fascinating that, I mean,
Speaker 2: the whole thing that the sedation idea, because so if
Speaker 2: I remember correctly, it was ketamine, and in my brain,
Speaker 2: this is such a you're not going to think this.
Speaker 3: Is such an amateur jump to make intellectually.
Speaker 2: But my brain went, oh, that must have been a
Speaker 2: vet because ketomene is a horse trank closer.
Speaker 3: What's that your idea?
Speaker 1: No, so it actually, I mean it is pretty pretty
Speaker 1: widely used in human field medicine. It's okay, like if
Speaker 1: you're in a car crash or have some sort of accident,
Speaker 1: they need to do a field procedure on you straighten
Speaker 1: out your leg or put your shoulder back in after
Speaker 1: it's just like haded or something like that. There's a
Speaker 1: fair chance you're going to get kedek in because it's
Speaker 1: really safe and easy to administer in the field, so
Speaker 1: it was perfect. But the actual idea came from the
Speaker 1: sort of powa veterinary source, a friend of Harry's who's
Speaker 1: a doctor, but he'd been doing some fieldwork on seals
Speaker 1: in Antarctica and they were using ketamine to slow the
Speaker 1: seals down a bit so they can take blood from them,
Speaker 1: and that was the origin of the suggestion.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm in the much as I'd like.
Speaker 1: To take credit for it, but I can't really.
Speaker 2: I mean, then you had to administer it, so you
Speaker 2: could definitely take credit for that.
Speaker 1: It would be easy. I know my way around a
Speaker 1: sy engine needle by now.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, the fact that you and Harry do I
Speaker 2: mean Harry being an an nethetist, but the other divers,
Speaker 2: their intersection of skills was not necessarily inclusive of administering injections.
Speaker 2: So was it them who was practicing in like bottles?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, So there were some when it was pointed
Speaker 1: out to these guys that were going to be administering
Speaker 1: the anesthetic underwater in a cave, there were some pretty
Speaker 1: apprehensive faces around the table. Fair enough, but you know,
Speaker 1: these are the world's best cave divers they can do
Speaker 1: sort of people, especially since they weren't given much choice
Speaker 1: in the matter, they eventually decided they were up for
Speaker 1: it and decided to give it a go. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: they had a quick lecture and then they all had
Speaker 1: a practice because some of them had never given an
Speaker 1: injection before at all, and so they all injected some
Speaker 1: water into some plastic coat poddles and that was it.
Speaker 1: They were good to go. Oh my gosh, seems like
Speaker 1: a pretty big deal, but in principle, it's pretty simple.
Speaker 1: You just put the drugs in, the patient goes to sleep,
Speaker 1: where you go.
Speaker 2: Was that to control the sort of panic and disorientation,
Speaker 2: because obviously they'd never die like normal adults probably would
Speaker 2: lose their call in that situation having never done it
Speaker 2: before a little on a small child.
Speaker 3: Was that where the idea came from.
Speaker 1: Oh totally yeah. I mean, I imagine the situation that
Speaker 1: these kids were in. They would have to be completely
Speaker 1: trusting of the diver though were with they wouldn't be
Speaker 1: able to see anything for it up to three hours.
Speaker 1: It was going to be a pretty rough old journey
Speaker 1: going out of this cave. It's not just like swimming
Speaker 1: down the inside of the pipe of a pipe, there's
Speaker 1: twists and turns and all sorts of projections and obstacles
Speaker 1: which I certainly kept swimming into. And they were going
Speaker 1: to take a bit of a beating. They were going
Speaker 1: to get really cold. It was not going to be
Speaker 1: a fun time for them. And for a lot of people,
Speaker 1: breathing off scuba underwater is a quite disconcerting experience when
Speaker 1: they first try it as well. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: people that don't really take to it straight away. But
Speaker 1: they weren't going to get any practice. They were just
Speaker 1: going to be straight into it, and if any of
Speaker 1: them did panic underwater, then there was pretty much all
Speaker 1: over just threshing around uncontrollably under the water. There was
Speaker 1: not much chance of survival from that. And they could
Speaker 1: also take a diver out with them as well, because
Speaker 1: the divers would have compelled to make the best efforts
Speaker 1: to save these kids. So, as crazy as it seems,
Speaker 1: we decided that maybe the anesthetic was the best way forward.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, anesthetizing someone and then putting their head
Speaker 1: underwater for three hours, that is it's not really cool.
Speaker 1: It's not something that you do. So it's a little
Speaker 1: bit dangerous. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's when you really appreciate how
Speaker 2: dire the situation was otherwise, that that was still the
Speaker 2: best option, even given how unusual that is. It's interesting
Speaker 2: to me and I loved hearing that even now you
Speaker 2: still are surprised that it all worked out, like that's
Speaker 2: how unlikely it truly was.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, look, if we were in the same
Speaker 1: situation now, I would still be very apprehensive about doing this,
Speaker 1: and you've looked for any other way of achieving the
Speaker 1: outcome if you could. But sometimes you've just got to
Speaker 1: make a choice and get into it.
Speaker 2: So my biggest thing that I find really fascinating about
Speaker 2: the human brain is how, especially now, we are so
Speaker 2: unaccustomed to stillness or quiet or boredom. It's very like
Speaker 2: instant gratuity. How can I be stimulated all the time,
Speaker 2: and like a lot of I think attention issues coming
Speaker 2: out of the fact that we all need to be
Speaker 2: stimulated all the time. I imagine that you know, underwater and
Speaker 2: without any visual stimulation for long periods of time, that
Speaker 2: it's a scenario that most people don't get an equivalent
Speaker 2: of during daily life. We don't have to sit with
Speaker 2: our thoughts in complete quiet like that very often? What
Speaker 2: do you think about when you're doing a dive, a
Speaker 2: normal dive, and then what were you thinking about in
Speaker 2: Thailand when you're on the way in on the way out?
Speaker 3: Like how do you steal the chaos for three hours?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not really like that. Like when you're
Speaker 1: doing the dive self, then it's got your attention. There's
Speaker 1: always something to think about. Are where you're going, is
Speaker 1: the equipment? Okay? Where are the other people that are
Speaker 1: around you? If there are any around you? It's not
Speaker 1: just boring empty time that does come. So that doesn't
Speaker 1: really apply to Thailand. But some of the big deep
Speaker 1: dives that we do, we do hours and hours. I've
Speaker 1: done some dives we're doing up to sixteen hours of
Speaker 1: decompression and they sitting waiting really, so you get to
Speaker 1: get plenty of time to consider your place in the
Speaker 1: universe and just think about things.
Speaker 3: What do you think of that?
Speaker 2: Can you evolution into music underwater or do you use
Speaker 2: it literally just you and yourself.
Speaker 1: I'm not really so much into that. Some people do that.
Speaker 1: It has its little logistical problems, but they're not insurmountable.
Speaker 1: That's not a real big thing for me. I don't know,
Speaker 1: just getting the zone and plan the next start of
Speaker 1: something like that. Bit of working out any problems in
Speaker 1: your life, you get the opportunity to reflect on them. Wow,
Speaker 1: just do what you've got to do. You've done the crime.
Speaker 1: Just sit there and do the time.
Speaker 2: What about in Thailand? Were there any moments even during
Speaker 2: the dive where, like, apart from the kids, were there
Speaker 2: any moments where you were sort of like fearful or worried,
Speaker 2: like for your own safety. I know there was a
Speaker 2: Thai Navy seal diver who didn't make it. Was it
Speaker 2: ever sort of dicey for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, there was not really, I mean for us.
Speaker 1: This is not not, by a long shot, the narhlist
Speaker 1: dive that we've ever done. So I was pretty confident,
Speaker 1: I mean, happily in a cave, I am invincible and
Speaker 1: cannot be killed anyway, so I have to worry too
Speaker 1: much about that. It was all sort of okay from
Speaker 1: that point of view, which is much. There was one
Speaker 1: incident where on the first day of the rescue and
Speaker 1: there was a problem with the compressor that had been
Speaker 1: filling our cylinders and we had really bad air and
Speaker 1: so a few of us were getting getting headaches and
Speaker 1: getting sick and stuff like that that was not really good.
Speaker 1: And this was on the dive into the cave to
Speaker 1: rescue the boys on the first day, so we didn't
Speaker 1: really need that very much. So when we had a chance,
Speaker 1: we sort of marshaled all the cylinders we had and
Speaker 1: tasted the air out of them as best we could,
Speaker 1: and I managed to come up with some that weren't
Speaker 1: going to kill us. But there were some harsh words
Speaker 1: spoken at the end of that day about the quality
Speaker 1: of the breathing gas that we were being given. But anyway,
Speaker 1: that everything always turns out okay in the end, and
Speaker 1: so did that. One. The concern that we had was
Speaker 1: just for the kids that they weren't going to make
Speaker 1: it through. I mean, at least we were in control
Speaker 1: of our own destiny, and if something went wrong for us,
Speaker 1: it was because we'd made a mistake, so we can
Speaker 1: take responsibility for that. We do it every time we
Speaker 1: go diving. But those kids, they just had to take
Speaker 1: what was coming to them. So, you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like you try and think, well, we were doing the
Speaker 1: best that we could, and nobody can ask for any
Speaker 1: more than that, but it still would have been pretty
Speaker 1: upsetting if we'd started to lose these kids. I don't know,
Speaker 1: never really came to find out about it.
Speaker 3: Well you didn't have to, which is wonderful.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't even imagine, like over it was
Speaker 2: what three days, I think it dives in and out,
Speaker 2: in and out and alternating between. Were there four of you,
Speaker 2: five of you that were sort of alternating going in
Speaker 2: and out?
Speaker 1: Six of us in the yeah, yep, I mean Harry
Speaker 1: and I had stations. So Harry was in a chamber
Speaker 1: nine with the boys and he was doing the inductions
Speaker 1: of the anesthetic and sending them on their way, and
Speaker 1: I was downstream a bit. So after they had their
Speaker 1: first dive, which was about three hundred meters so maybe
Speaker 1: twenty minutes or so, I can't remember exactly, and then
Speaker 1: they'd come out, there was another dry chamber there, so
Speaker 1: the boys all had to come out of the water.
Speaker 1: It carried across this dry chamber, which was a few
Speaker 1: hundred meters long, have all their gear taken across, put
Speaker 1: them back in the water again, and send them on
Speaker 1: their way. So that was my station. So that was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were tough. Long days and the other four British
Speaker 1: divers were actually diving them out, or other five British
Speaker 1: divers on the last day, so you know, probably like emotionally,
Speaker 1: the toughest part of it was at the end of
Speaker 1: that first day when we were bringing four boys out
Speaker 1: on the first day, so that all gone and we
Speaker 1: just had to dive ourselves out following them. We gave
Speaker 1: them a bit of a head start so we didn't
Speaker 1: catch up to them and just headed out, and of
Speaker 1: course we had no idea how things had gone. Harry
Speaker 1: and I didn't know if we were going to arrive
Speaker 1: back at dive Base and find four corpses there that
Speaker 1: hadn't made it. No idea, so the pressure was off
Speaker 1: us at that stage, but that was all I could
Speaker 1: really think about, just a bit apprehensive about what the
Speaker 1: result was going to be. I can clearly remember. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's one of my outstanding memories is getting back to
Speaker 1: dive Base on that first day and I just stuck
Speaker 1: my head out of the water and I said, did
Speaker 1: anyone survive? And the guys that were there said, yep,
Speaker 1: all good, four out of four, no problems. And I'll
Speaker 1: never really forget that moment, it was just like the
Speaker 1: weight of the world had been lifted off my shoulders,
Speaker 1: and you start to think, maybe this crazy plan can
Speaker 1: actually work against all expectations.
Speaker 2: I mean, what an extraordinary an extraordinary thing for humanity,
Speaker 2: Like it's just it stands out as one of these Yeah,
Speaker 2: like everyone remembers where they were when they first heard this.
Speaker 3: Story, like it's it's absolutely crazy.
Speaker 2: And I mean, you know I said to you when
Speaker 2: I first emailed you, I just think you too a
Speaker 2: legendary And I know you continue to refer to yourself
Speaker 2: as just a normal person, but most normal people haven't
Speaker 2: literally saved sort of the lives of thirteen other human
Speaker 2: beings and all their extended families and everyone in their
Speaker 2: lives who you've given you the gift of their future.
Speaker 2: So just extraordinary blows my mind.
Speaker 1: Well, it is a pretty good story. I'm going to
Speaker 1: admit that.
Speaker 3: I mean, you should admit it. It's an amazing story.
Speaker 2: What has it been, I mean it's been what four
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen six years?
Speaker 1: Six years? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you feel? How is your relationship to
Speaker 2: diving now afterwards? Did it change after that? Did you
Speaker 2: not dive for a little while, like how did How
Speaker 2: did things feel afterwards?
Speaker 1: Oh, I had a bit of catching up to do.
Speaker 1: That that was a little trip, so it put us behigh.
Speaker 1: I mean, that was that was pretty good. We had
Speaker 1: no idea at the time that this was such a
Speaker 1: huge story around the world because we're just there. It
Speaker 1: was somewhat isolated, pretty busy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you were busy. You had enough to do.
Speaker 1: We weren't watching TV or anything like that. Had a
Speaker 1: little bit of feedback from home, but that was about it,
Speaker 1: but just didn't have any comprehension that this was occupying
Speaker 1: so much attention. And it was really only once we
Speaker 1: got back to Australia that it became clear to us
Speaker 1: that we had got a bit of attention and some
Speaker 1: notoriety I suppose. I mean, it was all all in
Speaker 1: a good way. But when you're just an ordinary bloke
Speaker 1: and then living your life and then all all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you find yourself at the center of that,
Speaker 1: having reporters show up at your front door and just
Speaker 1: continual attention and requests for interviews and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: just think, well, I didn't really see this one coming.
Speaker 1: So the rest of you happened in July. We already
Speaker 1: had a trip to Canada organized for September October, so
Speaker 1: we disappeared on that for a month or so, and
Speaker 1: we thought, well, by the time we come back, we
Speaker 1: will be forgotten about and all the fussle of died down.
Speaker 1: We can just get back on with normal life. But
Speaker 1: it turned out that it was not quite that way,
Speaker 1: and it's just been going on ever since. I mean,
Speaker 1: even six years later, there's still a hunger for this story.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a great story where everybody's a winner,
Speaker 1: apart from Saman Gunan, who was the one Thai guy
Speaker 1: that died diving in the cave. But apart from that,
Speaker 1: it's just like a one hundred percent great story for everyone,
Speaker 1: and everybody seems to have some angle. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: who you are, but if you're a kid or a parent,
Speaker 1: or you're interested in rescue or emergency services, or there's
Speaker 1: a medical aspect to it, or a diver or an adventurer,
Speaker 1: everybody's got some point of connection with this story. And
Speaker 1: you don't get that. I can't really think of another
Speaker 1: example where everybody's got such a direct point of connection
Speaker 1: to it. And it's just a fantastic outcome where really
Speaker 1: victory is snatched from the jaws of defeat at the
Speaker 1: last minute. So I guess it makes sense that people
Speaker 1: are so okay on the story.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I just yeah, I love it. Like I said,
Speaker 2: it's like my favorite story ever. And if anyone I
Speaker 2: come across hasn't heard of it, I insist on telling
Speaker 2: them the entire thing because I think it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many bad news stories that
Speaker 2: you continually hear, and yet you want these ones to
Speaker 2: win in people's attention because it's an amazing Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: an amazing story to tell. It's so uplifting, and yeah,
Speaker 2: everyone does have a point of connection what they don't
Speaker 2: all have a point of connection with is I think
Speaker 2: even if you aren't interested in cave diving or rescue
Speaker 2: or Thailand or anything, it's still a story that everyone
Speaker 2: can find or in. But even if you aren't interested
Speaker 2: in cave diving, I also think that finding out about
Speaker 2: the niche community that it is is still fascinating because
Speaker 2: before we finish off the tie rescue, but just diving
Speaker 2: in general, Like I would love to know what's the
Speaker 2: longest you've ever dived and what's the coolest place you've
Speaker 2: been what's the place that you want to go in
Speaker 2: your lifetime that no one else has gone? And specifically
Speaker 2: because I'm all my brain ticks over logistics of stuff.
Speaker 2: How do you go to the bathroom when you're doing
Speaker 2: a sixteen hour dive?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: How do you do because you don't reservice?
Speaker 1: Right? Like?
Speaker 3: How do you like, you know, talk us through it.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of questions there as far as longest dives.
Speaker 1: Depends which way you look on, So I'll give you
Speaker 1: three different answers to that question. So the longest diving
Speaker 1: time is just about just over seventeen hours. Longest dive
Speaker 1: in distance is eleven.
Speaker 3: Kilometers down or sideways or every.
Speaker 1: Waste, yeah, alongside distance from the entrance and deepest dive
Speaker 1: two hundred and eighty four meters So that site. That's
Speaker 1: a site in South Africa that Harry and I dived
Speaker 1: earlier this year and it was until a few years
Speaker 1: ago the deepest cave dive in the world. But there's
Speaker 1: a couple of deeper dives that have been done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, how do you eat? Do you get starving
Speaker 2: over seventeen hours? And yeah, bathroom like what do you
Speaker 2: do thirsty as well?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if you're in fresh water, you can drink
Speaker 1: the water, so that's not really a problem. But let's
Speaker 1: see easier solution of all that. One don't even have
Speaker 1: to take a drink with you. If you're in the
Speaker 1: ocean or in salt water, then that's not the case
Speaker 1: you but you can drink out of a drink bottle,
Speaker 1: just like a squeezy bottle. That's no problem as far
Speaker 1: as food goes. So sometimes we have habitats underwater, particularly
Speaker 1: when it's really cold water, and so we just have
Speaker 1: a little inverted bag basically that we'll fill up with air,
Speaker 1: and you can climb up into that and sit there
Speaker 1: and you can have a bit of a feed, so
Speaker 1: your friends and support divers will bring you down something
Speaker 1: to eat and drink in there. It's quite a pleasant
Speaker 1: environment compared to actually being in the water. But at
Speaker 1: other times, if you're doing all of the decompression in
Speaker 1: the water, then you can still eat, particularly like something
Speaker 1: like a chocolate bar or something like that. You just
Speaker 1: have to make sure that you take small bites because
Speaker 1: once you take a bite, you have to eat all
Speaker 1: of that and swallow it before you can take another breath,
Speaker 1: and you don't Oh yeah, that's the track for young players.
Speaker 1: We all learn when we first start, but get used
Speaker 1: to that. As far as going to the toilet, so
Speaker 1: number one is not really any problem or particularly for
Speaker 1: boys anyway. Just a bit of plumbing, a little raincoat
Speaker 1: on the old fellow with a tube coming out at
Speaker 1: the end and that's easily achieved. But yeah, number two
Speaker 1: has just got to plan ahead and wow, time bit
Speaker 1: of a bit of a low fiber diet for a
Speaker 1: day or two events is advisable.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so you actually do have to like, yeah,
Speaker 2: do your prayers like the reverse card loading that people
Speaker 2: don't marathons and stuff.
Speaker 1: That's okay, We've been doing all this stuff for a
Speaker 1: long time. We're aware of all the issues.
Speaker 3: And is there a dive that you have yet?
Speaker 2: Do you have like kind of a list of dives
Speaker 2: in your lifetime that you want to conquer and is
Speaker 2: there one that you're just like can't not have done
Speaker 2: or is there one that you're planning to do?
Speaker 1: Well, it's not really like that because it's exploration is
Speaker 1: really the name of the game. So the dives you
Speaker 1: want to do are the ones that haven't been done yet. Ah,
Speaker 1: So always looking really, but I've got a few projects
Speaker 1: on the go, and so this year I've been to
Speaker 1: China and there is so much to do up there
Speaker 1: and it's virtually untouched. Really, there are lifetimes of exploration.
Speaker 1: So I've hooked up with a few of the Chinese
Speaker 1: divers up there and looking forward to going back there.
Speaker 1: There's lots to do. Spain is another big place. I'm
Speaker 1: involved in a project over there that's the longest cave
Speaker 1: divers in furthest distance from the entrance. So I was
Speaker 1: there with Jason Mallinson, another one of the divers from
Speaker 1: the Cave Rescue, and going back there next year again
Speaker 1: in August and September, so hopefully extend that one as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, probably my career defining dive has been this
Speaker 1: cave in New Zealand that we've been going to called
Speaker 1: the Pierce Resurgence, and that's been going there for so
Speaker 1: Harry first went there in two thousand and seven. I
Speaker 1: came along a little bit later twenty ten, but I've
Speaker 1: been on eight expeditions there now and keeps getting deeper
Speaker 1: and going further and that's really cold water too, just
Speaker 1: to make it even more unpleasant. So just organizing now
Speaker 1: for another trip up there, going there in February and
Speaker 1: getting ready to lay a bit more light.
Speaker 2: Amazing. Oh well, that's so exciting. I just yeah, I
Speaker 2: can't even imagine. I mean, like, I hate being cold
Speaker 2: and don't love being well like I love Yeah, I
Speaker 2: just can't imagine it. But I love how much you
Speaker 2: love doing it, and I hope that February's dive goes
Speaker 2: really well. I'm so so grateful for your time. And
Speaker 2: I know you've probably rehashed this story a million times,
Speaker 2: but I don't think it will ever get old.
Speaker 3: It is just such a good one and spark so
Speaker 3: much joy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, there's still plenty more dives to do, so
Speaker 1: if anybody listening is Keane, I really recommend it to you.
Speaker 1: There's stuff out there. There's still so much exploration to do,
Speaker 1: and just go out get yourself the training first, listen
Speaker 1: to me on that one. Yeah, then get into it.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of excitement to be had.
Speaker 2: Well, I really do hope that across these two episodes
Speaker 2: there is an aspiring cave diver out there who might
Speaker 2: not have otherwise done it, but who now that they
Speaker 2: know that there is so there are so many things
Speaker 2: that you can do and that you can make a
Speaker 2: twenty seven year career out of it if you want
Speaker 2: to and going and counting, and you can do it,
Speaker 2: you know, all over the world. I hope that there
Speaker 2: is at least one who's been listening who chooses to
Speaker 2: continue pursuing it because.
Speaker 3: Of you, guys.
Speaker 1: I hope so too.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Craig. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2: For those who haven't read the book. I'll make sure
Speaker 2: to include Aleek in the show notes because still one
Speaker 2: of my favorite books ever. There's much more detail if
Speaker 2: you've enjoyed the detail we're listening to that you've listened
Speaker 2: to in this and thank you so much for joining it.
Speaker 1: Was really enjoyed it. Thanks Sarah.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. I mean I've already read their book
Speaker 2: against all odds many times. I've watched the documentaries, I've
Speaker 2: watched the movies, but I'm never any less blown away.
Speaker 3: What an incredible feat.
Speaker 2: I wish I could have kept chatting for hours or
Speaker 2: crawled into Craig's brain to understand more. It really makes
Speaker 2: me so enthusiastic about humanity, and I hope you guys
Speaker 2: found some inspiration too. If you enjoyed, please do share
Speaker 2: the episode on socials or take a minute to leave
Speaker 2: us a review. I always forget to ask. I mean,
Speaker 2: in seven years, we've only amassed I think less than
Speaker 2: a thousand, and that's because I'm so bad at asking.
Speaker 2: But it really does mean so much to keep growing
Speaker 2: the neighborhood, even now in what.
Speaker 3: Is our eighth year, which blows me away. It means
Speaker 3: a lot to keep us going.
Speaker 2: So if you haven't subscribed or left a review, I'd
Speaker 2: so appreciate you taking the time. And in the meantime,
Speaker 2: I hope your February is off to a great start
Speaker 2: and you're seizing your yay