1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: I've never heard of somebody on their death bed saying 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: I wish I'd spent more time at my desk. So 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: this day, as I sit here now, I still really 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: can't believe that we got away with it, to have 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: been in charge of a little living, breathing human and 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: trying to keep them alive. And then you're adding the 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well, 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: and that's mad stuff. 9 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Seas the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what 11 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing we work, then we rest, but 12 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: rarely we play, and often don't realize there's more than 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and 14 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore, 15 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days 16 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm 17 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned 18 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: fuentrepreneur who's walked the suits and heels to co found 19 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: matcha Maiden and matcha Milk. CZA is a series of 20 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 2: conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. It's 22 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: not the first time we've touched on this week's topic 23 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: or guest on the show, but you'll all remember how 24 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: absolutely captivated I was and still am by the Tai 25 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: cave rescue since I read the book Against ol Odds 26 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: by two of the incredible cave rescue divers that details 27 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: just how much more impossible the mission actually was than 28 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: I understood it through the media at the time, and 29 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: I've been yapping about it to anyone who listened. I 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: think is one of the most incredible stories to come 31 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: out of humanity and have really been looking for an 32 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: excuse to revisit it again on the show. Our conversation 33 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: with doctor Richard Harris a few years ago is still 34 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: one of our most popular episodes ever, and I've been 35 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: hoping for a long time to get his diving partner, friend, 36 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: co author and co Australian of the Year on the 37 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 2: show for a while, and I'm so thrilled to finally 38 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: have Craig Chalon here on the show today. Just as 39 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: Harry was, Craig is wildly humble about his pivotal role 40 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: in one of the most incredible stories in recent human history. 41 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: It's as mind blowing as every hearing the details of 42 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: how the unique combination of his passion for technical cave 43 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: diving and his profession as a vet was just what 44 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: the world needed to pull off the impossible. I don't 45 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: think you can ever hear this story enough times or 46 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 2: be any less inspired by its details. I mean, I've 47 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: read so exhaustively about the facts, and they blow my 48 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: mind every time. Coffee colored water, five hour dives, like, 49 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, the fact that you are literally diving 50 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: through space is so narrow that your shoulders and back 51 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: at touching that, Oh, oh my gosh. I'll let you 52 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: guys listen and enjoy as always. Well, many of us 53 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: have met Craig through the media, you know, during this time, 54 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: we kind of walked into a chapter of his life 55 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 2: where it seems like he's the hero of humanity. 56 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: I also loved. 57 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: Going through the journey that it took him to get there, 58 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: from country wa through his career as a vet before 59 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 2: finally finding his love for technical cave diving. As you'll hear, 60 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: Craig epitomizes many of the themes we love to explore 61 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: and seize the a with such an interesting perspective on 62 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 2: what he thinks is a necessary divide between your work 63 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,119 Speaker 2: and your hobbies, and the idea that you don't necessarily 64 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: need to love your job. You can find your AA elsewhere. 65 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: I found this one so fascinating and I hope you 66 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: guys enjoy as much as I did. 67 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 3: Craig Challon, Welcome to Seize the A. 68 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It's great to be with you. 69 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: I'm so excited to have you here today and so 70 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: grateful for your time because we get to talk about 71 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: one of humanity's greatest stories and I think one of 72 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: my favorite topics ever. 73 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: No points for guessing what that is, but it is 74 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: a pretty good story. 75 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 2: I was actually listening to you on another show and 76 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: the interviewer said, people will always remember where they were 77 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: when man landed on the moon or JFK was assassinated. 78 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: And I think a lot of Australians remember where they 79 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: were when they heard about the Tie Cave rescue. But 80 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: I do think many of us didn't fully understand just 81 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: how extraordinary the odds were at the time. The news 82 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: brushed over so many of the details. Hence the name 83 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: of You or Incredible Book Against All Odds co authored 84 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: with doctor Richard Harris, who we have had the pleasure 85 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 2: of also having on the show. It wasn't until I 86 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: read your book that I fully grasped just how impossibly 87 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 2: unlikely a successful rescue was and became totally obsessed with 88 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: the details. So I'm really excited to revisit those today 89 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: and the crazy intersection of your profession with your passion, 90 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: as we did with Harry. But first I love to 91 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: trace back through all the chapters that came before this one, 92 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 2: the one that people meet you in now Australian of 93 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: the Year. You have an Order of Australia Medal, lots 94 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: of letters at the end of your name. You're a 95 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: global hero. So can you take us back to the beginning? 96 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: Who you started as in Thornleigh, Perth. What were you 97 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: like growing up? 98 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: Well? I think on reflection, I probably was born at 99 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: the best time and place in the entirety of human history, really, 100 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: Queen's sixty five in Australia, most particularly Western Australia. It's 101 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: hard to imagine how it could get much better than that, really, 102 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: So I guess I had a pretty ordinary, really childhood 103 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: that was great, you know, I had a fantastic family environment. 104 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: There were four kids in the family. I was the oldest. 105 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: Great deal of encouragement from my parents to seek opportunities 106 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: and to project the idea that there was so much 107 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: out there to do. Lived in the city for the 108 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: first part of my childhood, but in the latter part 109 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: moved out to the country, and that was really the 110 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: most fantastic thing. 111 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds absolutely idyllic. Western Australia is one 112 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 2: of the most beautiful parts of the world, and a 113 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: country upbringing is so grounding. But I don't necessarily think 114 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: it foreshadows that you will grow up and become a 115 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: global hero and be welcomed with open arms by the 116 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: King of Thailand and treated by royalty like royalty. It's 117 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: not necessarily what you would expect from your pathway. 118 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 3: Let alone the sort of unique combination of technical cave 119 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 3: diving and veterinaries and that led you there. So what 120 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: did you actually think you would be when you grow up? 121 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 3: Did you have any idea? Do you dreamk this up? 122 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that I over did. It's as funny 123 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: how everybody always wants you to have had a grand 124 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: plan fear life, and life is not actually like that. 125 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: Most of us are just doing what seems like the 126 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: next logical thing. People respond to incentives and respond to 127 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: their environment. I was just an ordinary kid, later on, 128 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: an ordinary person doing my job, getting an education, and 129 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: admittedly a hobby of cave diving is a little bit unusual. 130 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: Most people have never really heard of it before the 131 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: Ika rescue. But it was just a thing that I 132 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: fell into. I'd always been interested in adventure sports, parachuting 133 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: and climbing, and had a brief and unspectacular career in 134 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: mountaineering and a few other things, as you do, and 135 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: none of them really cold that much. And I did 136 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: scuba diving as part of that course, but looking at 137 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: fish was a bit boring. Really can only take so 138 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: much of that. But like so many things in life, 139 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: just right place, right time. I met someone that was 140 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,119 Speaker 1: a cave diving instructor. As soon as I heard about 141 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: cave diving, I thought that is the thing for me. 142 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: That was twenty seven years ago. Now that's been good. 143 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: I'm a fantastic opportunity. I've now been all around the 144 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: world and been to places that nobody has ever been before, 145 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: and seen things that have never had human eyes laid 146 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: on them. And of all the reasons that I really 147 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: like cave diving, that is the one that really gets me. 148 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: You never get tired of that. 149 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: I mean, that sounds incredible and you're kind of selling 150 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: it to me, but there are still lots of parts 151 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: that terrify me, which we will get to. But I mean, 152 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: this show is called CZZA because I think we do 153 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: in society spend so much time looking for things like 154 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: success and prestige, but then eventually often realize that all 155 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: we're really looking for is yay. It's fulfillment, happiness and contentment. 156 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 2: But it eludes people for so long because so few 157 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: of us wake up knowing what we want to be 158 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: and then become that and then you live happily ever after. 159 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: It just so rarely happens that way. 160 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: And when you don't know what you want to be, 161 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: I mean, how do you even find out what you're 162 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: passionate about? Like, how would you ever work out that 163 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: you loved technical cave diving without meeting someone? It just 164 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: seems so unlikely, and particularly as a VET, that doesn't 165 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: really seem to connect with what you were already doing. 166 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: But that's why I love your story so much. It's 167 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: not only to tell people about hobbies and pursuits they 168 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: might not have otherwise heard of in case it sparks 169 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: something for them. But also because you can have a 170 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: really unlikely combination of your passion and your profession. You 171 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 2: can be a veterinary surgeon who loves technical cave diving, 172 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 2: and that can lead you to be, you know, the 173 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: only person that can help globally in a particular situation. 174 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 3: So, I mean, how did the combination come about for you? 175 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: Were you already a vet when you started cave diving? 176 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: How did it all work? 177 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: No, I know it'd be pretty sad existence as a job. Really. 178 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: I think I'm a pretty firm believer in keep your 179 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: work you work, and your hobbies your hobbies, and in 180 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: my observation, people that try and mix the two it 181 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: doesn't really go well. And I can particularly it's because 182 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: I know a lot of diving instructors and cave diving instructors. 183 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: To my mind, when they start doing that, it just 184 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: spoils the whole thing because you never get to go 185 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: out and do your own stuff. You're too mixed up 186 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: in making a living, and it's not a particularly good 187 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: living anyway. So you're better off to do what you do, 188 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 1: and I do think that most people's lives there's probably 189 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: room enough to be good at two things. It's really hard. 190 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: You certainly have to have a great deal more talent 191 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: and gents that I've got to do more than that 192 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: and haven't really got the time. So hopefully your work 193 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: is one of them those of us that are afflicted 194 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: with having to work for a living, which is the 195 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: greater part of the population. And then there's something else 196 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: as well, and you know, whatever it is, your hobby 197 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: or your sport or an alternative occupation or whatever. I mean, 198 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: that's completely up to the individual, but it's really worthwhile 199 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: devoting yourself to developing skills that are not something that 200 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: you are then are living from, just for fun and 201 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: satisfaction and challenge. 202 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: That's such a great SoundBite for this show, because I 203 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: think there is, you know, in the pursuit of your yay, 204 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: a lot of narrative around loving your job, and lots 205 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: of people do love their job, but it's discouraging for 206 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: those who maybe don't and find their passion in their 207 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: hobbies instead. And I think you're a wonderful example and 208 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 2: that's a great encouragement that they can be kept separate, 209 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: and sometimes there is a great benefit in doing so. 210 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you've been passionate in love with your work. 211 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: It's a nice sounding idea, and you're on you or 212 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: anybody else. I'm very happy for you. But there's a 213 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: lot of pretty mundane jobs out there and somebody has 214 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: to do them. The other thing is that, no matter 215 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: how much you like it, if you're facing up to 216 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: thirty or forty or more years of doing that, then 217 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: there's going to really come a time where you want 218 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: to move on to something else. So you should leave 219 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: an opening in your life. People say I don't know 220 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: what I'd do if I retired, and that just seems 221 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: crazy to me. I mean, what have you been going 222 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: to work for your whole life for. I've never heard 223 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: of somebody on their deathbed saying I wish I'd spent 224 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: more time at my desk. 225 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred percent. I say that all the time. 226 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 2: I've never met someone who thinks I wish I worked more. 227 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: I wish I did less of my hobbies. I wish 228 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: I made less time for my family and for joy 229 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 2: and for the things that really light you up. What 230 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: I think is the greatest shame is when people do 231 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: get to sort of that chapter in their lives, like retirement, 232 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: and they don't know what their passions are. It's not 233 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: that they haven't made time for them, but they've never 234 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 2: even explored who they are enough, because their profession does become. 235 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 3: The entirety of their identity. 236 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 2: So speaking to Harry and now speaking to you is 237 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: wonderful because you have dedicated so much time resources, Like 238 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: it's expensive. You know, it's not just sort of a 239 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: hobby where you go and do fingerpainting whatever, Like, it's 240 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: a big undertaking to travel the world to go and 241 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,479 Speaker 2: find these places, and there's a lot of training and equipment. 242 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: I love that that is all for something that isn't 243 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: your job. It's purely because you enjoy it. But before 244 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: we get to the story, I do want to touch 245 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 2: quickly on your time as a vet, which, even though 246 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: it wasn't necessarily. 247 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: Your passion, did you enjoy it. 248 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 2: In my mind, it's one of the best jobs in 249 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 2: the world because you get to work with animals. But 250 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: I actually had a couple of followers mentioned and sort 251 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: of point out to me that it can be incredibly 252 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: tough and there are often some tough mental healths around 253 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 2: the profession. 254 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 3: So what was your experience. 255 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's well, it's a complicated situation. We could 256 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: talk for a whole day on this. I should open 257 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: by saying I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so 258 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: I can only speak for what I've seen with my 259 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: own eyes. I don't know that it's really any worth 260 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: in the vetory profession than in society generally. There is 261 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: some information around the suicide rates are higher amongst vets, 262 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: but there's no real supporting evidence as to why that is. 263 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: And it seems the most obvious explanation to me is 264 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: that vets have got means to do it. Thats are 265 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: They're privileged members of a privileged society here in Australia. 266 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you get to do work that is meaningful. 267 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: Can't really top looking after animals, can you. That's the 268 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: trump card of everything than helping people as well, with 269 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: professions full of nice people. So I don't really get it. 270 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: What I'm saying shouldn't be taken to display any lack 271 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: of sympathy for people that have had problems. But why 272 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: that should be and whether it is any worse in 273 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: the veteran profession, I don't really know, just trying to 274 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: give you an honest opinion, But I don't want to 275 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: look insensitive, because I'm not insensitive to people suffering. 276 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: No, I really appreciate the honesty of that perspective and 277 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: think it's really positive that you haven't had that experience 278 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: of the industry and it has felt like a privilege. 279 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: Did you enjoy your time as a vet? 280 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: I did? It was great. I had a couple of 281 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: careers in one I started out doing clinical work, then 282 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: as I progressed, I built quite a large group of practices, 283 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: and so in the latter part of my career, for 284 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: probably the last ten years or so, I was really 285 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: more of a management VET than a clinic I mean, 286 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: as a clinician, I was okay. I was a passable VET. 287 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: I wasn't the most fantastic fit in the world. Probably 288 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: my talents lay more in managing other vets and providing 289 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: an environment for them to be the best that they could. 290 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: In my own humble opinion, I was fairly handy at 291 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: that I met with some success. 292 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: So I was lucky, well wonderful though that you did 293 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: have a great career, but that alongside in this parallel world, 294 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: you were able to excel extraordinarily at being a cave diver. 295 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: So let's turn to the passion because obviously this is 296 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: such a yay for you and has remained that, like 297 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: you said, many people don't even know what cave diving is, 298 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: just assuming and I think it was the same in 299 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: the case of a Thaire cave rescue, just assuming that 300 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: generally skilled qualified divers can do cave dives. But it's 301 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: quite a specific technical kind of diving. So when you 302 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: first discovered what it was, what was your first dive? Like, 303 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: where do you go from there? Is there a universe? 304 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: Like you can you know, you can do your scuba 305 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 2: diving certification. Is it like that where you find a 306 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: school and you get a teacher and you get a 307 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: certificate and then you can just go and do all 308 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: these places? They sound very hard to access. Is there 309 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: like a association that allocates you dives you're allowed to do? 310 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: Are they ranked? 311 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: Like? 312 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: How does it all work when you first get into it? 313 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So when I began, there was a lot more informal, really, 314 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: and there was an association there would defined courses that 315 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: you did, and that that's how you start out. I mean, 316 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: it can be quite a good diver in open water, 317 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: but that does not qualify you anyway, and it's highly 318 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: dangerous to just decide to give it a go. There's 319 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: a few obvious things. The most important one, of course, 320 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: is that if something goes wrong, you can't just hit 321 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: the up button and go back to the surface because 322 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: there is no surface. There's rock above you, and so 323 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: you have to be able to deal with any contingency 324 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: not being able to see. If you get lost, you 325 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: need to get unlost again and find your way out. 326 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: Any equipment failures, you need to have a plan and 327 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: skills and the cool head to deal with them. 328 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 3: I do not have that. 329 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: It's not for everyone. A lot of people temperamentally aren't 330 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: suited to it, but it certainly doesn't require any special powers. 331 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: All the people that do it just ordinary people. Really, 332 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: you need to go out and get the training. First 333 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: of all. There's a long history of people that have 334 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: come unstuck when they've just decided to give it a 335 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: bit of a go, So I cannot emphasize that enough. 336 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: But I was really lucky in that I met someone 337 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: who was an instructor but also became a bit of 338 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: a mentor to me. Took me on some expeditions way 339 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: before I was probably ready to be doing that. Within 340 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: a few months really of starting cave diving, I was 341 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: doing exploration and laying line, as we call it home, 342 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: putting guideline in a new cave. When you have that 343 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: sort of beginning, it's really to not have enthusiasm for 344 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: more of it. 345 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. 346 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: I love watching people on the show go from talking 347 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: about just normal questions like their childhood and whatever to 348 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 2: the thing they really love. 349 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 3: And the whole facial expression changes. 350 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 2: It's like this light that you get when you talk 351 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 2: about something you're really passionate about it, particularly when you're 352 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 2: thinking about kind of the early days. I love watching 353 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: that transformation in your body language getting excited about it. 354 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: I'm so transparent, Sarah. 355 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: It's wonderful to see the joy that you get from this. 356 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: And what fascinates me so much is that coming back 357 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: to that kind of societal pressure, there's a lot of 358 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: not just pressure within people's careers about certain jobs that 359 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: are worth more than others, or that look more successful 360 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: than others. I think in the realm of hobbies and 361 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: passions and just general interests, there are things that you know, 362 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: people think are like normal and things that people think 363 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 2: aren't normal, and we spend a lot of time trying 364 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,959 Speaker 2: to be like other people. I love that if you 365 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: like cave diving, you like or really you spend a 366 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: lot of effort going to do a pursuit that most 367 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 2: people would describe as their nightmare. And that's the best part. Like, 368 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 2: I think it's such a good reminder that everyone enjoys 369 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: different things. Something that would make someone else crumble into 370 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: a ball of fear is someone else's joy, Like it's 371 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 2: meant to be like that. We're all composed of different things. 372 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: Like you said, you don't think of yourself as particularly special, 373 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: but you must be wide in a way where you 374 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 2: can be cool, not just cool and calm in water 375 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 2: that you can't see through, in tunnels that like are 376 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: so claustrophobic to the average person, and not just. 377 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 3: Calm, but you enjoy that. I love that it's possible 378 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 3: for us to have. 379 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,239 Speaker 2: Such a broad range of interest as humanity, and your 380 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 2: hobbies don't need to look like anyone else's. I think 381 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 2: it's the point I'm trying to make. 382 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 3: I love that, Well, it. 383 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: Would be a pretty boring old world if we were 384 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: all the same, wouldn't it. And what I don't get 385 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: is people that don't really try anything. Just get out 386 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: there and you don't know what it is that where 387 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: your destiny lies, then just do something. Get started. At 388 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: least you'll require some skills and knowledge and meet some 389 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: new people. If it's not really for you, then go 390 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: and do something else. Nobody's got a lifetime long enough 391 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: to try it, or so if someone sets out to 392 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: be World crochet Champion, you know, good luck to them. Really, 393 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: I admire that it just be the best that you 394 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: can be. 395 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 2: I love that I was a corporate lawyer beforehand, and 396 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: when I sort of was asked, you know, what would 397 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: you do instead? Like, you know, at times when i'd 398 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: express it, I wasn't particularly happy doing what I would do. 399 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 2: They'd be like, well, what are your passions and what 400 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 2: are your interest and I'd say, well, I don't know, 401 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 2: I don't know what my passions are. And I think 402 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 2: someone one day sat. 403 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 3: Me down and said, well, like what are you trying? 404 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 3: Like what are you signed up for? And I was like, 405 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 3: oh nothing, and so that well. 406 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: How are you going to figure out what you're passionate 407 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: about if you're not going out and trying something like 408 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 2: you need to be actively exploring who you are to. 409 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 3: Figure out what you like and what you don't like. 410 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 2: And even finding out that you don't like something, I 411 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: think is a good amount of data to help you 412 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 2: get closer to the things that you do like. So 413 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 2: I love that advice to just go crochet, go and 414 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: do pottery, like figure out what it is. 415 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, when I look back, I mean, 416 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: I'm not a person for regrets at all. I think 417 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: that regret is the most destructive human emotion. You just 418 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: do what you do at the time and make the 419 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: best decisions that you can based on the information that 420 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: you've got. But you know, if I was going to 421 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: regret one thing, it would be that when I was younger, 422 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: I just wasted so much time. You think that you've 423 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: got all the time in the world and that it'll 424 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: never catch up with you. And I'm fifty nine years 425 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: old now, so I'm not done yet. I've still had 426 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: a few more dives left in me. But I look 427 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: back and I think I could have achieved so much 428 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: more if I hadn't just pissed time up against the wall. Really, 429 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: you're not going to have big regretting having done too much. 430 00:21:59,000 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 3: I love that. 431 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 2: Often said, I make decisions based on a future regret 432 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: management matrix more than anything else, and like, will future 433 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: me regret this even if current me is like, fuck no, 434 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: I don't want to do that. Like future me would 435 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: rather regret doing it than having not done it and 436 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: letting the time pass anyway, because like the clock is 437 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: ticking no matter what, so you might as well have 438 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: done the experience. It'd rather regret having done it. And 439 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: it is always such a random sequence of decisions like 440 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 2: that that lead you to the pivotal moments in your life. 441 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: Which brings me back to the story I've been so 442 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 2: excited to chat to you about, and I mean one 443 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 2: of the parts I love the most. There are so 444 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 2: many parts, but it is that unique intersection of your 445 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: passion for technical cave diving and your job as a vet. 446 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 2: Like in all the world, the entire world of people 447 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: and all the different combinations of skills that exist, with 448 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 2: so many different options of how to solve this problem 449 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: that seemed impossible, that it was you and Harry who 450 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: got brought in from somewhere like I don't even know 451 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: how they even found you. I love that it wasn't 452 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 2: necessarily your professions, but it was your hobbies that made 453 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: you the perfect people for this one thing that happened 454 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: during your lifetimes. Like that, just it blows my mind 455 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 2: that they know, they called navy seals, they called other governments, 456 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 2: they called blah blah, and it was these two lads 457 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 2: from Australia. 458 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: Doing something that they loved. 459 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: It isn't even their job that could do the dive 460 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: technically enough like that, just it just blows my mind, 461 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: still blows my mind. 462 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: Well, I should hasten to say that there are other 463 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: people involved as well, it wasn't just me and Harry 464 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: really to how they found us is as you get 465 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: higher up the food chain and cave diving, it's a 466 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: pretty small group of people. Really. Everybody knows each other 467 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: or knows of each other at least, and so it 468 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: doesn't really take long to make a list of who 469 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: you would really want on a mission like that. Two 470 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: British guys were Extanton and John Balanthon were the first 471 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: people on side of the first recognized cave divers on site, 472 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: and Harry and I know them quite well, particularly Rick. 473 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: I've done a lot of diving with him over the years, 474 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: and yeah, I wouldn't have taken too much imagination. 475 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 2: And yet it did take a lot of imagination to 476 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 2: come up with the solution that you did end up 477 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: coming up with. So I think what I find so 478 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: fascinating about this whole thing is that in the media, 479 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 2: it did appear this whole thing has happened. These boys 480 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: entered a cave, we don't know the cave got flooded out, 481 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: we don't know if they're alive, and it was all 482 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: you know for a couple of days. Kind of it 483 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: felt like a blip on the radar. Then suddenly they 484 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: were out. Like in our media, that's kind of how 485 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: it seemed. It was like big problem holding breath, people 486 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 2: have gone over, experts of debt with it. 487 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 3: They're out. 488 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: And then when I read the book, the subtleties of 489 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 2: everyone involved had moments of thinking it was over. It 490 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: was impossible, Like I don't think it was conveyed to 491 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: the lay person in Australia, how touch and go the 492 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: situation was, how impossible and unlike you said, like the 493 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 2: book is called against all odds, Like I just didn't 494 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 2: understand that at the time. So hearing the details has 495 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 2: been my favorite story. 496 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 3: Ever to hear. 497 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: So can you talk us through You didn't even get 498 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: there till day thirteen. Elon Musk had already been and 499 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 2: gone talk us through the situation. 500 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's I mean, it didn't seem all that 501 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: different to us either. I developed slowly and we didn't 502 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: know what was going to happen. And I mean so 503 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: this day, as I sit here now, I still really 504 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: can't believe that we got away with it. Wow, it 505 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: was pretty radical stuff to be bringing these kids out 506 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 1: when it was first suggested that there would be a 507 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: cave diving rescue through two point two kilometers of a 508 00:25:54,520 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: fairly gnally dive. Really, for us doing it just by ourselves, 509 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: without taking patience out and rescuing someone, it still would 510 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: have been a pretty sporting afternoon out really. But to 511 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: have be in charge of a little living, breathing human 512 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: and trying to keep them alive, and then you're adding 513 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: the aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well, 514 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just that's mad stuff. If somebody had 515 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: come up with this as a script and given it 516 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: to me to read, I would have thought, nah, mate, 517 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: it's too far fetched, going to tone it down a 518 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 1: little bit, but that's the way it was, and to 519 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: have gotten all thirteen of them out just still seems unbelievable. 520 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: We were one hundred percent prepared for casualties. It just 521 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: seemed fanciful for me me that we'd get them all out. 522 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: The only thing that really motivated us was that we knew, 523 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: we were convinced that if they stayed in the cave, 524 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: they were doomed. There was no chance of survival. It 525 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: was going to be months for the cave dried out 526 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: and the water stop flowing. So we had to give 527 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: it a go. And even if we just got one 528 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: out alive, that still would have been an improvement on 529 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: none of them surviving, so that was worth it. But 530 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: it's still weighs fairly heavily upon your shoulders at the time, 531 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: thinking that we might end up dragging them all out 532 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: of the cave in body bags would not have been 533 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: a really very cool scenario. 534 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: So again, I think it did seem like we called 535 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 2: in the experts. The experts did their thing. You brought 536 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 2: them out amazing, But I mean, I didn't even know 537 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 2: that before you guys had had the call up. Like first, 538 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 2: there was a big period of time where they hadn't 539 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: even found the boys. So, you know, so for everyone listening, 540 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 2: if you didn't know, the boys went in when the 541 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 2: cave was dry, so they were able to walk in, 542 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: and there was you know, obviously wasn't flooded at the 543 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 2: time they went in, and then it flooded and the 544 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: chambers sort of all filled up, So they were a 545 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 2: very very long way in from the entrance where they started, 546 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 2: and they obviously got stuck there and couldn't get out. 547 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 2: It took you know, a lot of days to even 548 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 2: figure out that where they were if they were alive, 549 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 2: and then there was a scram or just sort of 550 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 2: figure out how you would ever get them out. I 551 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: read or I think I heard you on a different 552 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 2: podcast saying that, I mean, you got the call with 553 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 2: two hours before. 554 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 3: You had to get on the plane. 555 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 2: Had you been waiting for the call? Did you know 556 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 2: that they were thinking about because their initial plans weren't 557 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 2: to do a cave dive. Were they was there a 558 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 2: submarine plan? 559 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: There were heaps of plans. It seemed like people from 560 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: all over the world were just popping their heads up 561 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: with bright ideas, and it was pretty easy to present 562 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: yourself as an expert in that environment at the time, 563 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: so there was all sorts of stuff going on, but 564 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: all those other plans just one by one they fell away, 565 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: were eliminated as implausible, are going to take too much time, 566 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: and it just more and more looked like cave diving. 567 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: But days were ticking by. Harry and I are still 568 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: sitting here in Australia, and even on the day before 569 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: we left, it looked like we weren't going to get 570 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: a guernsey and that we weren't really wanted. Up there 571 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: just seemed to be drifting, and it was pretty chaotic 572 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: up there as well, because nobody knew what to do. 573 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: The taie authorities were a bit lost about what the 574 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: best course of action was, and I can't really blame 575 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: them for that because there's not really any precedent for 576 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: this situation. Of all the things that the governance might 577 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: have thought of, this was not really on the list, 578 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: so I certainly can't hold that against them. But it 579 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: all just really came together over a few hours, and yeah, 580 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: you're quite right. We got the call to get yourself 581 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: to the airport, so it had to very hastily because 582 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: we were all packed up for another dive trip. So 583 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: I had to unpack, reconfigure, throw some stuff in a bag, 584 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: and just go. It was pretty frantic at the time. 585 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: Do you put your hand up? Like, because I think, 586 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: you know, normal channels of governments and militaries, you'd kind 587 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: of be looking at seals and all that kind of stuff. 588 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: But that having not been successful, how do you guys 589 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 2: put your hand up and use the channels? Or were 590 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 2: you just waiting for someone to suggest you, like, do. 591 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 3: You know what I mean? How did the kind of 592 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 3: logistics work? 593 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: Yeah? I know. We were totally volunteered. We were super cane. 594 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: We've been interested in cave rescue for quite a long time, 595 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: and the cave diving rescues that don't come around very often. 596 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: There's only three or depending on how you define it, 597 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: for cave diving rescues ever occurred, including this one in Wow. 598 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: And so I was prepared in my own mind to 599 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: go a whole lifetime without ever going getting to do one. 600 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: So when opportunity knocks, your best answer the door. Really Wow. Yeah, 601 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: we didn't have to be talked into it. 602 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: So you took all your own equipment. This was all 603 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: stuff you had for your own pursues. And you just 604 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: had to kind of neck it all on over there. 605 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, somewhat. I took what we thought we would need. 606 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: As it turned out, we start, we use slightly different equipment, 607 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: so gathered a bit up when we're over there, but 608 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: essentially it was our stuff. Yeah, wow, and throw it in. 609 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 1: I'm pretty used to packing for trips by now after 610 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: twenty seven years, so that didn't take very long. 611 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, although I imagine it's never been such a quite 612 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: high stakes environment. So can you talk us through the 613 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 2: actual nitty gritty of the dive itself? Because again, when 614 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 2: I heard that there were divers, I kind of just 615 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 2: thought you were going down and that your water is 616 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,479 Speaker 2: clear in most cases, you know. I was like, oh, 617 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: you're swimming and look at the fishes, but you know 618 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: it was coffee colored water. You said two point two 619 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: k's in and obviously then you have to come back out. 620 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 3: So someone had. 621 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,959 Speaker 2: Gone all the way in, and are they laying like 622 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: a guy for like, how you know where you're going? 623 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: How tight were the kind of holes that you need 624 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: to get through? How long was it in and out? 625 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: Like for us two k's in and out? I don't 626 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: sort of know what that translates. 627 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: To like, yeah, to talk us through the stats of 628 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 3: the dive. 629 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: So I think the most pertinent thing for people to 630 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: realize is that we couldn't really see anything at all. 631 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: The water is filled with silt and mud, and occasionally 632 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: you just get a bit of a glimpse of some 633 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: clear water. There were a couple of side passages that 634 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: were bringing in clear water, but the main river channel 635 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: everything was done by feel, and so we always place 636 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: a guideline to follow in cave diving. That is the 637 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: number one absolute cast iron rule of cave diving. That 638 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: you have a continuous guideline from the surface, so you 639 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: can follow that and that's enough information to get you 640 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: in and get you out again. And so it just 641 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: start at the beginning. I mean, it was two point 642 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: two kilometers in, but that's not for what we do normally. 643 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: That's not that big a deal. I've been far further 644 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: than that. So the day before the rescue started, Harry 645 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: and I did a WRECKI dive in there just so 646 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: we could experience the cave for ourselves and see how 647 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: difficult was going to be, and also to suss the 648 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: kids out, see how they were going as well, and 649 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: just what sort of condition that they were in. And 650 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: it took us about two hours to get in there 651 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: the first time. 652 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 3: Two hours one way, that's one way to get in. 653 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: We had a couple of hours with the kids there 654 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: and just chatting to them, telling them what was well. 655 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: We had a letter written in tie with us that 656 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: explained what was going to happen, and the course was 657 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: pretty much set for the next day by then, and 658 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: so that was read out to the kids. They are 659 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: just oh, yeah, right, you're going to have an anesthetic 660 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: and dive through the cave whatevers needed. And they were 661 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: really cool. These kids, they get ten out of ten 662 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: from me, no doubt. They were tough little customers. They 663 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: get a lot of credit. You know, with survival, A 664 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: big part of it and when you're going to survive 665 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: or not is just being equal to the task and 666 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: making the decision that you are going to survive. The 667 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: rest follows from that. And you hear these stories about 668 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: people just giving up and the end is inevitable in 669 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: that case, but I think those kids were pretty determined 670 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: that wasn't going to happen to them. That was the 671 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: trip in and when we're coming out, when had kids 672 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: with us. Our estimate, which turned out to be pretty accurate, 673 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: was that it was going to take three hours to 674 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 1: get out with them, given that they had to have 675 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: top ups of anesthetic on the way out, and just 676 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: you generally looked after. 677 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. 678 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 2: So, I mean, there's so many I mean, I already 679 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 2: know all this, but it just it still gets me 680 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: every time. It's just so so fascinating that, I mean, 681 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 2: the whole thing that the sedation idea, because so if 682 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 2: I remember correctly, it was ketamine, and in my brain, 683 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 2: this is such a you're not going to think this. 684 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 3: Is such an amateur jump to make intellectually. 685 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: But my brain went, oh, that must have been a 686 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 2: vet because ketomene is a horse trank closer. 687 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 3: What's that your idea? 688 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: No, so it actually, I mean it is pretty pretty 689 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: widely used in human field medicine. It's okay, like if 690 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: you're in a car crash or have some sort of accident, 691 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: they need to do a field procedure on you straighten 692 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,479 Speaker 1: out your leg or put your shoulder back in after 693 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: it's just like haded or something like that. There's a 694 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 1: fair chance you're going to get kedek in because it's 695 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: really safe and easy to administer in the field, so 696 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: it was perfect. But the actual idea came from the 697 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: sort of powa veterinary source, a friend of Harry's who's 698 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: a doctor, but he'd been doing some fieldwork on seals 699 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: in Antarctica and they were using ketamine to slow the 700 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: seals down a bit so they can take blood from them, 701 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: and that was the origin of the suggestion. 702 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm in the much as I'd like. 703 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: To take credit for it, but I can't really. 704 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 2: I mean, then you had to administer it, so you 705 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 2: could definitely take credit for that. 706 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: It would be easy. I know my way around a 707 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: sy engine needle by now. 708 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, the fact that you and Harry do I 709 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: mean Harry being an an nethetist, but the other divers, 710 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 2: their intersection of skills was not necessarily inclusive of administering injections. 711 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 2: So was it them who was practicing in like bottles? 712 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, So there were some when it was pointed 713 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: out to these guys that were going to be administering 714 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: the anesthetic underwater in a cave, there were some pretty 715 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: apprehensive faces around the table. Fair enough, but you know, 716 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: these are the world's best cave divers they can do 717 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: sort of people, especially since they weren't given much choice 718 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: in the matter, they eventually decided they were up for 719 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: it and decided to give it a go. So, yeah, 720 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: they had a quick lecture and then they all had 721 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: a practice because some of them had never given an 722 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: injection before at all, and so they all injected some 723 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: water into some plastic coat poddles and that was it. 724 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: They were good to go. Oh my gosh, seems like 725 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: a pretty big deal, but in principle, it's pretty simple. 726 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 1: You just put the drugs in, the patient goes to sleep, 727 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: where you go. 728 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 2: Was that to control the sort of panic and disorientation, 729 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 2: because obviously they'd never die like normal adults probably would 730 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 2: lose their call in that situation having never done it 731 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 2: before a little on a small child. 732 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 3: Was that where the idea came from. 733 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: Oh totally yeah. I mean, I imagine the situation that 734 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: these kids were in. They would have to be completely 735 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: trusting of the diver though were with they wouldn't be 736 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: able to see anything for it up to three hours. 737 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: It was going to be a pretty rough old journey 738 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: going out of this cave. It's not just like swimming 739 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: down the inside of the pipe of a pipe, there's 740 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: twists and turns and all sorts of projections and obstacles 741 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: which I certainly kept swimming into. And they were going 742 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: to take a bit of a beating. They were going 743 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: to get really cold. It was not going to be 744 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: a fun time for them. And for a lot of people, 745 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: breathing off scuba underwater is a quite disconcerting experience when 746 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: they first try it as well. There's a lot of 747 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: people that don't really take to it straight away. But 748 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: they weren't going to get any practice. They were just 749 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: going to be straight into it, and if any of 750 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: them did panic underwater, then there was pretty much all 751 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: over just threshing around uncontrollably under the water. There was 752 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: not much chance of survival from that. And they could 753 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: also take a diver out with them as well, because 754 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: the divers would have compelled to make the best efforts 755 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: to save these kids. So, as crazy as it seems, 756 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: we decided that maybe the anesthetic was the best way forward. 757 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, anesthetizing someone and then putting their head 758 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: underwater for three hours, that is it's not really cool. 759 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: It's not something that you do. So it's a little 760 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: bit dangerous. Yeah. 761 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's when you really appreciate how 762 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 2: dire the situation was otherwise, that that was still the 763 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: best option, even given how unusual that is. It's interesting 764 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 2: to me and I loved hearing that even now you 765 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,359 Speaker 2: still are surprised that it all worked out, like that's 766 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 2: how unlikely it truly was. 767 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, look, if we were in the same 768 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: situation now, I would still be very apprehensive about doing this, 769 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: and you've looked for any other way of achieving the 770 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: outcome if you could. But sometimes you've just got to 771 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 1: make a choice and get into it. 772 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,479 Speaker 2: So my biggest thing that I find really fascinating about 773 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: the human brain is how, especially now, we are so 774 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 2: unaccustomed to stillness or quiet or boredom. It's very like 775 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 2: instant gratuity. How can I be stimulated all the time, 776 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 2: and like a lot of I think attention issues coming 777 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 2: out of the fact that we all need to be 778 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 2: stimulated all the time. I imagine that you know, underwater and 779 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 2: without any visual stimulation for long periods of time, that 780 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 2: it's a scenario that most people don't get an equivalent 781 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 2: of during daily life. We don't have to sit with 782 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 2: our thoughts in complete quiet like that very often? What 783 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 2: do you think about when you're doing a dive, a 784 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 2: normal dive, and then what were you thinking about in 785 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 2: Thailand when you're on the way in on the way out? 786 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 3: Like how do you steal the chaos for three hours? 787 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not really like that. Like when you're 788 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,919 Speaker 1: doing the dive self, then it's got your attention. There's 789 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: always something to think about. Are where you're going, is 790 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: the equipment? Okay? Where are the other people that are 791 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,919 Speaker 1: around you? If there are any around you? It's not 792 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: just boring empty time that does come. So that doesn't 793 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: really apply to Thailand. But some of the big deep 794 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: dives that we do, we do hours and hours. I've 795 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: done some dives we're doing up to sixteen hours of 796 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: decompression and they sitting waiting really, so you get to 797 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: get plenty of time to consider your place in the 798 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: universe and just think about things. 799 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 3: What do you think of that? 800 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 2: Can you evolution into music underwater or do you use 801 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 2: it literally just you and yourself. 802 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: I'm not really so much into that. Some people do that. 803 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: It has its little logistical problems, but they're not insurmountable. 804 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: That's not a real big thing for me. I don't know, 805 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:08,320 Speaker 1: just getting the zone and plan the next start of 806 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: something like that. Bit of working out any problems in 807 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 1: your life, you get the opportunity to reflect on them. Wow, 808 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: just do what you've got to do. You've done the crime. 809 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: Just sit there and do the time. 810 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 2: What about in Thailand? Were there any moments even during 811 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 2: the dive where, like, apart from the kids, were there 812 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 2: any moments where you were sort of like fearful or worried, 813 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 2: like for your own safety. I know there was a 814 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 2: Thai Navy seal diver who didn't make it. Was it 815 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:42,919 Speaker 2: ever sort of dicey for you? 816 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: Yeah? No, there was not really, I mean for us. 817 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: This is not not, by a long shot, the narhlist 818 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: dive that we've ever done. So I was pretty confident, 819 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: I mean, happily in a cave, I am invincible and 820 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 1: cannot be killed anyway, so I have to worry too 821 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,240 Speaker 1: much about that. It was all sort of okay from 822 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: that point of view, which is much. There was one 823 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: incident where on the first day of the rescue and 824 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: there was a problem with the compressor that had been 825 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: filling our cylinders and we had really bad air and 826 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: so a few of us were getting getting headaches and 827 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: getting sick and stuff like that that was not really good. 828 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,839 Speaker 1: And this was on the dive into the cave to 829 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,720 Speaker 1: rescue the boys on the first day, so we didn't 830 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: really need that very much. So when we had a chance, 831 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 1: we sort of marshaled all the cylinders we had and 832 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: tasted the air out of them as best we could, 833 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,720 Speaker 1: and I managed to come up with some that weren't 834 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: going to kill us. But there were some harsh words 835 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 1: spoken at the end of that day about the quality 836 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: of the breathing gas that we were being given. But anyway, 837 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: that everything always turns out okay in the end, and 838 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: so did that. One. The concern that we had was 839 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: just for the kids that they weren't going to make 840 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: it through. I mean, at least we were in control 841 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: of our own destiny, and if something went wrong for us, 842 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 1: it was because we'd made a mistake, so we can 843 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: take responsibility for that. We do it every time we 844 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: go diving. But those kids, they just had to take 845 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: what was coming to them. So, you know, I don't know, 846 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: like you try and think, well, we were doing the 847 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,919 Speaker 1: best that we could, and nobody can ask for any 848 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: more than that, but it still would have been pretty 849 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 1: upsetting if we'd started to lose these kids. I don't know, 850 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 1: never really came to find out about it. 851 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 3: Well you didn't have to, which is wonderful. 852 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't even imagine, like over it was 853 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 2: what three days, I think it dives in and out, 854 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 2: in and out and alternating between. Were there four of you, 855 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 2: five of you that were sort of alternating going in 856 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 2: and out? 857 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: Six of us in the yeah, yep, I mean Harry 858 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,800 Speaker 1: and I had stations. So Harry was in a chamber 859 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: nine with the boys and he was doing the inductions 860 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: of the anesthetic and sending them on their way, and 861 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: I was downstream a bit. So after they had their 862 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: first dive, which was about three hundred meters so maybe 863 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 1: twenty minutes or so, I can't remember exactly, and then 864 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: they'd come out, there was another dry chamber there, so 865 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: the boys all had to come out of the water. 866 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 1: It carried across this dry chamber, which was a few 867 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,479 Speaker 1: hundred meters long, have all their gear taken across, put 868 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: them back in the water again, and send them on 869 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: their way. So that was my station. So that was. Yeah, 870 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: they were tough. Long days and the other four British 871 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,280 Speaker 1: divers were actually diving them out, or other five British 872 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:51,399 Speaker 1: divers on the last day, so you know, probably like emotionally, 873 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: the toughest part of it was at the end of 874 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:58,279 Speaker 1: that first day when we were bringing four boys out 875 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: on the first day, so that all gone and we 876 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 1: just had to dive ourselves out following them. We gave 877 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,959 Speaker 1: them a bit of a head start so we didn't 878 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: catch up to them and just headed out, and of 879 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,799 Speaker 1: course we had no idea how things had gone. Harry 880 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: and I didn't know if we were going to arrive 881 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: back at dive Base and find four corpses there that 882 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,359 Speaker 1: hadn't made it. No idea, so the pressure was off 883 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,919 Speaker 1: us at that stage, but that was all I could 884 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: really think about, just a bit apprehensive about what the 885 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: result was going to be. I can clearly remember. I mean, 886 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: it's one of my outstanding memories is getting back to 887 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: dive Base on that first day and I just stuck 888 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: my head out of the water and I said, did 889 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: anyone survive? And the guys that were there said, yep, 890 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,879 Speaker 1: all good, four out of four, no problems. And I'll 891 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: never really forget that moment, it was just like the 892 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: weight of the world had been lifted off my shoulders, 893 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 1: and you start to think, maybe this crazy plan can 894 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,280 Speaker 1: actually work against all expectations. 895 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 2: I mean, what an extraordinary an extraordinary thing for humanity, 896 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,720 Speaker 2: Like it's just it stands out as one of these Yeah, 897 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 2: like everyone remembers where they were when they first heard this. 898 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 3: Story, like it's it's absolutely crazy. 899 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 2: And I mean, you know I said to you when 900 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 2: I first emailed you, I just think you too a 901 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 2: legendary And I know you continue to refer to yourself 902 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 2: as just a normal person, but most normal people haven't 903 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,279 Speaker 2: literally saved sort of the lives of thirteen other human 904 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 2: beings and all their extended families and everyone in their 905 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 2: lives who you've given you the gift of their future. 906 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 2: So just extraordinary blows my mind. 907 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: Well, it is a pretty good story. I'm going to 908 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 1: admit that. 909 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 3: I mean, you should admit it. It's an amazing story. 910 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 2: What has it been, I mean it's been what four 911 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen six years? 912 00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:58,359 Speaker 1: Six years? Yeah? 913 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you feel? How is your relationship to 914 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 2: diving now afterwards? Did it change after that? Did you 915 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,359 Speaker 2: not dive for a little while, like how did How 916 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 2: did things feel afterwards? 917 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 1: Oh, I had a bit of catching up to do. 918 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: That that was a little trip, so it put us behigh. 919 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: I mean, that was that was pretty good. We had 920 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,319 Speaker 1: no idea at the time that this was such a 921 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: huge story around the world because we're just there. It 922 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,000 Speaker 1: was somewhat isolated, pretty busy. 923 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, you were busy. You had enough to do. 924 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: We weren't watching TV or anything like that. Had a 925 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,359 Speaker 1: little bit of feedback from home, but that was about it, 926 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: but just didn't have any comprehension that this was occupying 927 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: so much attention. And it was really only once we 928 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: got back to Australia that it became clear to us 929 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 1: that we had got a bit of attention and some 930 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,000 Speaker 1: notoriety I suppose. I mean, it was all all in 931 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 1: a good way. But when you're just an ordinary bloke 932 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: and then living your life and then all all of 933 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: a sudden you find yourself at the center of that, 934 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: having reporters show up at your front door and just 935 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: continual attention and requests for interviews and stuff like that, 936 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: just think, well, I didn't really see this one coming. 937 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 1: So the rest of you happened in July. We already 938 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,759 Speaker 1: had a trip to Canada organized for September October, so 939 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:29,480 Speaker 1: we disappeared on that for a month or so, and 940 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: we thought, well, by the time we come back, we 941 00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: will be forgotten about and all the fussle of died down. 942 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: We can just get back on with normal life. But 943 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,239 Speaker 1: it turned out that it was not quite that way, 944 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 1: and it's just been going on ever since. I mean, 945 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: even six years later, there's still a hunger for this story. 946 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a great story where everybody's a winner, 947 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:56,279 Speaker 1: apart from Saman Gunan, who was the one Thai guy 948 00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 1: that died diving in the cave. But apart from that, 949 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:05,760 Speaker 1: it's just like a one hundred percent great story for everyone, 950 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: and everybody seems to have some angle. It doesn't matter 951 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,760 Speaker 1: who you are, but if you're a kid or a parent, 952 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: or you're interested in rescue or emergency services, or there's 953 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,480 Speaker 1: a medical aspect to it, or a diver or an adventurer, 954 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:29,040 Speaker 1: everybody's got some point of connection with this story. And 955 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,760 Speaker 1: you don't get that. I can't really think of another 956 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: example where everybody's got such a direct point of connection 957 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,400 Speaker 1: to it. And it's just a fantastic outcome where really 958 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: victory is snatched from the jaws of defeat at the 959 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,040 Speaker 1: last minute. So I guess it makes sense that people 960 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,320 Speaker 1: are so okay on the story. 961 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I just yeah, I love it. Like I said, 962 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 2: it's like my favorite story ever. And if anyone I 963 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,959 Speaker 2: come across hasn't heard of it, I insist on telling 964 00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,799 Speaker 2: them the entire thing because I think it is. 965 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:00,839 Speaker 1: Yeah. 966 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,960 Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many bad news stories that 967 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,880 Speaker 2: you continually hear, and yet you want these ones to 968 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,680 Speaker 2: win in people's attention because it's an amazing Yeah, it's 969 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 2: an amazing story to tell. It's so uplifting, and yeah, 970 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 2: everyone does have a point of connection what they don't 971 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 2: all have a point of connection with is I think 972 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 2: even if you aren't interested in cave diving or rescue 973 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 2: or Thailand or anything, it's still a story that everyone 974 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 2: can find or in. But even if you aren't interested 975 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,600 Speaker 2: in cave diving, I also think that finding out about 976 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 2: the niche community that it is is still fascinating because 977 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,360 Speaker 2: before we finish off the tie rescue, but just diving 978 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 2: in general, Like I would love to know what's the 979 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,719 Speaker 2: longest you've ever dived and what's the coolest place you've 980 00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:44,839 Speaker 2: been what's the place that you want to go in 981 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 2: your lifetime that no one else has gone? And specifically 982 00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,080 Speaker 2: because I'm all my brain ticks over logistics of stuff. 983 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,680 Speaker 2: How do you go to the bathroom when you're doing 984 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:54,719 Speaker 2: a sixteen hour dive? 985 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:55,400 Speaker 1: Like? 986 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:56,960 Speaker 3: How do you do because you don't reservice? 987 00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:57,319 Speaker 1: Right? Like? 988 00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 3: How do you like, you know, talk us through it. 989 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,920 Speaker 1: There's a lot of questions there as far as longest dives. 990 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 1: Depends which way you look on, So I'll give you 991 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:11,560 Speaker 1: three different answers to that question. So the longest diving 992 00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:16,880 Speaker 1: time is just about just over seventeen hours. Longest dive 993 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,279 Speaker 1: in distance is eleven. 994 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,239 Speaker 3: Kilometers down or sideways or every. 995 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: Waste, yeah, alongside distance from the entrance and deepest dive 996 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,279 Speaker 1: two hundred and eighty four meters So that site. That's 997 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 1: a site in South Africa that Harry and I dived 998 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:40,919 Speaker 1: earlier this year and it was until a few years 999 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: ago the deepest cave dive in the world. But there's 1000 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,439 Speaker 1: a couple of deeper dives that have been done. 1001 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, how do you eat? Do you get starving 1002 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,160 Speaker 2: over seventeen hours? And yeah, bathroom like what do you 1003 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:55,600 Speaker 2: do thirsty as well? 1004 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if you're in fresh water, you can drink 1005 00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,759 Speaker 1: the water, so that's not really a problem. But let's 1006 00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,520 Speaker 1: see easier solution of all that. One don't even have 1007 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,440 Speaker 1: to take a drink with you. If you're in the 1008 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,640 Speaker 1: ocean or in salt water, then that's not the case 1009 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,600 Speaker 1: you but you can drink out of a drink bottle, 1010 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,279 Speaker 1: just like a squeezy bottle. That's no problem as far 1011 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 1: as food goes. So sometimes we have habitats underwater, particularly 1012 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:24,480 Speaker 1: when it's really cold water, and so we just have 1013 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 1: a little inverted bag basically that we'll fill up with air, 1014 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,080 Speaker 1: and you can climb up into that and sit there 1015 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:31,880 Speaker 1: and you can have a bit of a feed, so 1016 00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,840 Speaker 1: your friends and support divers will bring you down something 1017 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 1: to eat and drink in there. It's quite a pleasant 1018 00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:43,000 Speaker 1: environment compared to actually being in the water. But at 1019 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,759 Speaker 1: other times, if you're doing all of the decompression in 1020 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:52,080 Speaker 1: the water, then you can still eat, particularly like something 1021 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,719 Speaker 1: like a chocolate bar or something like that. You just 1022 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,280 Speaker 1: have to make sure that you take small bites because 1023 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: once you take a bite, you have to eat all 1024 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,400 Speaker 1: of that and swallow it before you can take another breath, 1025 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,360 Speaker 1: and you don't Oh yeah, that's the track for young players. 1026 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,439 Speaker 1: We all learn when we first start, but get used 1027 00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: to that. As far as going to the toilet, so 1028 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: number one is not really any problem or particularly for 1029 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:22,400 Speaker 1: boys anyway. Just a bit of plumbing, a little raincoat 1030 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,480 Speaker 1: on the old fellow with a tube coming out at 1031 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:31,839 Speaker 1: the end and that's easily achieved. But yeah, number two 1032 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,879 Speaker 1: has just got to plan ahead and wow, time bit 1033 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:37,400 Speaker 1: of a bit of a low fiber diet for a 1034 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,239 Speaker 1: day or two events is advisable. 1035 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,719 Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so you actually do have to like, yeah, 1036 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,479 Speaker 2: do your prayers like the reverse card loading that people 1037 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:46,720 Speaker 2: don't marathons and stuff. 1038 00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: That's okay, We've been doing all this stuff for a 1039 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,040 Speaker 1: long time. We're aware of all the issues. 1040 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,120 Speaker 3: And is there a dive that you have yet? 1041 00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:57,840 Speaker 2: Do you have like kind of a list of dives 1042 00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,239 Speaker 2: in your lifetime that you want to conquer and is 1043 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 2: there one that you're just like can't not have done 1044 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,160 Speaker 2: or is there one that you're planning to do? 1045 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,239 Speaker 1: Well, it's not really like that because it's exploration is 1046 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,719 Speaker 1: really the name of the game. So the dives you 1047 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 1: want to do are the ones that haven't been done yet. Ah, 1048 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:20,160 Speaker 1: So always looking really, but I've got a few projects 1049 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,799 Speaker 1: on the go, and so this year I've been to 1050 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:29,080 Speaker 1: China and there is so much to do up there 1051 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,759 Speaker 1: and it's virtually untouched. Really, there are lifetimes of exploration. 1052 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 1: So I've hooked up with a few of the Chinese 1053 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,640 Speaker 1: divers up there and looking forward to going back there. 1054 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:45,400 Speaker 1: There's lots to do. Spain is another big place. I'm 1055 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,320 Speaker 1: involved in a project over there that's the longest cave 1056 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,960 Speaker 1: divers in furthest distance from the entrance. So I was 1057 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,160 Speaker 1: there with Jason Mallinson, another one of the divers from 1058 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,800 Speaker 1: the Cave Rescue, and going back there next year again 1059 00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:07,440 Speaker 1: in August and September, so hopefully extend that one as well. 1060 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:12,239 Speaker 1: I mean, probably my career defining dive has been this 1061 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,680 Speaker 1: cave in New Zealand that we've been going to called 1062 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:21,120 Speaker 1: the Pierce Resurgence, and that's been going there for so 1063 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,200 Speaker 1: Harry first went there in two thousand and seven. I 1064 00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,799 Speaker 1: came along a little bit later twenty ten, but I've 1065 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:31,800 Speaker 1: been on eight expeditions there now and keeps getting deeper 1066 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,080 Speaker 1: and going further and that's really cold water too, just 1067 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,919 Speaker 1: to make it even more unpleasant. So just organizing now 1068 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,080 Speaker 1: for another trip up there, going there in February and 1069 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,040 Speaker 1: getting ready to lay a bit more light. 1070 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,480 Speaker 2: Amazing. Oh well, that's so exciting. I just yeah, I 1071 00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:53,720 Speaker 2: can't even imagine. I mean, like, I hate being cold 1072 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,440 Speaker 2: and don't love being well like I love Yeah, I 1073 00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,319 Speaker 2: just can't imagine it. But I love how much you 1074 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 2: love doing it, and I hope that February's dive goes 1075 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,960 Speaker 2: really well. I'm so so grateful for your time. And 1076 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,720 Speaker 2: I know you've probably rehashed this story a million times, 1077 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,279 Speaker 2: but I don't think it will ever get old. 1078 00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,120 Speaker 3: It is just such a good one and spark so 1079 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:12,800 Speaker 3: much joy. 1080 00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, there's still plenty more dives to do, so 1081 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:21,280 Speaker 1: if anybody listening is Keane, I really recommend it to you. 1082 00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,840 Speaker 1: There's stuff out there. There's still so much exploration to do, 1083 00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:29,320 Speaker 1: and just go out get yourself the training first, listen 1084 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 1: to me on that one. Yeah, then get into it. 1085 00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,400 Speaker 1: There's a lot of excitement to be had. 1086 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,800 Speaker 2: Well, I really do hope that across these two episodes 1087 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,000 Speaker 2: there is an aspiring cave diver out there who might 1088 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,000 Speaker 2: not have otherwise done it, but who now that they 1089 00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,440 Speaker 2: know that there is so there are so many things 1090 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,000 Speaker 2: that you can do and that you can make a 1091 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,680 Speaker 2: twenty seven year career out of it if you want 1092 00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,520 Speaker 2: to and going and counting, and you can do it, 1093 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:54,440 Speaker 2: you know, all over the world. I hope that there 1094 00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,400 Speaker 2: is at least one who's been listening who chooses to 1095 00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 2: continue pursuing it because. 1096 00:57:58,680 --> 00:57:59,480 Speaker 3: Of you, guys. 1097 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:00,720 Speaker 1: I hope so too. 1098 00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,040 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Craig. It's been an absolute pleasure. 1099 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:06,720 Speaker 2: For those who haven't read the book. I'll make sure 1100 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,440 Speaker 2: to include Aleek in the show notes because still one 1101 00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,840 Speaker 2: of my favorite books ever. There's much more detail if 1102 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,200 Speaker 2: you've enjoyed the detail we're listening to that you've listened 1103 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,720 Speaker 2: to in this and thank you so much for joining it. 1104 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:18,960 Speaker 1: Was really enjoyed it. Thanks Sarah. 1105 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,000 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. I mean I've already read their book 1106 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,480 Speaker 2: against all odds many times. I've watched the documentaries, I've 1107 00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,840 Speaker 2: watched the movies, but I'm never any less blown away. 1108 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:27,520 Speaker 3: What an incredible feat. 1109 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:29,560 Speaker 2: I wish I could have kept chatting for hours or 1110 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,680 Speaker 2: crawled into Craig's brain to understand more. It really makes 1111 00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,240 Speaker 2: me so enthusiastic about humanity, and I hope you guys 1112 00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,760 Speaker 2: found some inspiration too. If you enjoyed, please do share 1113 00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,360 Speaker 2: the episode on socials or take a minute to leave 1114 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,800 Speaker 2: us a review. I always forget to ask. I mean, 1115 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,000 Speaker 2: in seven years, we've only amassed I think less than 1116 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,480 Speaker 2: a thousand, and that's because I'm so bad at asking. 1117 00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,760 Speaker 2: But it really does mean so much to keep growing 1118 00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,640 Speaker 2: the neighborhood, even now in what. 1119 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,560 Speaker 3: Is our eighth year, which blows me away. It means 1120 00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:56,920 Speaker 3: a lot to keep us going. 1121 00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,240 Speaker 2: So if you haven't subscribed or left a review, I'd 1122 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,600 Speaker 2: so appreciate you taking the time. And in the meantime, 1123 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:04,880 Speaker 2: I hope your February is off to a great start 1124 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:06,560 Speaker 2: and you're seizing your yay