WEBVTT - Kerry Tucker Loved Being In Prison [re-release] 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:21.045 is recorded on. I'm MEA Friedman and the team at 0:00:21.045 --> 0:00:24.045 Mama and MEA are bringing you over one hundred hours 0:00:24.605 --> 0:00:27.885 of the very best of the podcasts that we've made 0:00:27.925 --> 0:00:31.365 from across our podcast network. Do you know that we 0:00:31.445 --> 0:00:34.845 have something like fifty six different podcasts here at Mamma Mia. 0:00:35.405 --> 0:00:39.085 And if you follow this one, we have selected some 0:00:39.245 --> 0:00:41.645 others that you might like to listen to as well, 0:00:42.005 --> 0:00:44.445 and we've also brought back some of our most popular 0:00:44.885 --> 0:00:49.365 and most riveting stories from No Filter. Kerry Tucker's story 0:00:49.405 --> 0:00:51.525 is one of those stories that really sticks with you. 0:00:51.805 --> 0:00:54.845 And maybe it's because she experienced something that most of 0:00:54.925 --> 0:00:58.845 us would consider our worst nightmare. She was in prison 0:00:58.925 --> 0:01:01.925 for four and a half years. But the funny part 0:01:02.085 --> 0:01:06.085 is she loved it. She actually loved being in prison. 0:01:06.325 --> 0:01:09.085 I interviewed Kerrie in twenty eighteen, and in the years 0:01:09.085 --> 0:01:11.605 since and then she's continued to be an advocate for women, 0:01:11.685 --> 0:01:15.285 both women who were in prison and those women after 0:01:15.325 --> 0:01:18.325 their release. And I know that her story is going 0:01:18.365 --> 0:01:21.285 to stay with you like it did with me. I 0:01:21.485 --> 0:01:23.685 was just I had so many questions you'll be shocked 0:01:23.685 --> 0:01:27.245 to hear, and Kerrie answered all of them. 0:01:27.405 --> 0:01:29.565 Even though you've gotten out of prison, you still have 0:01:29.645 --> 0:01:31.845 to serve time. You know that you're still going to 0:01:31.845 --> 0:01:33.725 be judge. You're going to be held accountable for that 0:01:33.765 --> 0:01:35.605 crime for your rest of your life. And I'm the 0:01:35.605 --> 0:01:37.045 first one to say absolutely not. 0:01:37.805 --> 0:01:40.685 From the mom of mea podcast network, I'm Meya Friedman 0:01:40.965 --> 0:01:45.005 and this is no filter, real stories that will make 0:01:45.085 --> 0:01:47.885 you lean in. How do you prepare to go to 0:01:48.045 --> 0:01:50.965 prison and what's life like when you get there? How 0:01:51.085 --> 0:01:53.565 is a mother do you tell your two little girls 0:01:54.245 --> 0:01:56.405 that they aren't going to see you for anywhere up 0:01:56.445 --> 0:02:00.525 to seven years. Carrie Tucker was jailed in two thousand 0:02:00.565 --> 0:02:03.205 and four for one of the biggest white collar crimes 0:02:03.245 --> 0:02:07.605 committed by a female in Victoria. She'd been stealing money 0:02:07.685 --> 0:02:11.245 from her employers, and she owned up to it, was 0:02:11.245 --> 0:02:14.765 found guilty, and she spent four and a half years 0:02:14.765 --> 0:02:19.485 behind bars in a maximum security prison. When Carrie arrived 0:02:19.525 --> 0:02:25.365 in jail, she was utterly terrified and totally clueless about 0:02:25.405 --> 0:02:28.205 what was going to happen to her next. From sex 0:02:28.605 --> 0:02:34.325 to violence, friendships and babies. And drug addiction and making 0:02:34.365 --> 0:02:39.485 cups of tea for murderers. Life is very big and 0:02:39.765 --> 0:02:43.525 very complicated on the inside, and it's also very different 0:02:43.565 --> 0:02:46.205 to the way you might imagine it to be. In fact, 0:02:46.525 --> 0:02:49.405 the most surprising part of this story is that at 0:02:49.405 --> 0:02:53.365 the end of her sentence, Kerry Tucker actually asked if 0:02:53.405 --> 0:02:56.605 she could stay in prison. This story is so interesting 0:02:57.005 --> 0:02:59.645 and you're gonna love it. Carrie, tell me about the 0:02:59.725 --> 0:03:00.765 day you got arrested. 0:03:01.125 --> 0:03:03.685 It's funny when I get asked that question, because there's 0:03:03.685 --> 0:03:06.205 two different memories. I knew that I was about to 0:03:06.245 --> 0:03:09.125 be arrested, you know, I just didn't know when That 0:03:09.405 --> 0:03:12.205 waiting was just terrific. I didn't know that they'd had 0:03:12.285 --> 0:03:15.045 me under surveillance for a week. One must remember that 0:03:15.125 --> 0:03:17.925 this was a really big crime in a very small town. 0:03:17.965 --> 0:03:20.405 Anywhere else, they wouldn't have put me under surveillance because 0:03:20.925 --> 0:03:23.045 you know, I wasn't a violent offender and I was 0:03:23.045 --> 0:03:25.605 sitting at home with my daughters. I went to the gym, 0:03:25.685 --> 0:03:28.165 and they arrested me at the gym, so that was 0:03:28.245 --> 0:03:32.045 really good. So that day, you know, being arrested, you know, 0:03:32.205 --> 0:03:33.925 there's a couple of things that I learned from that, 0:03:34.005 --> 0:03:36.485 because I was very compliant, I knew that I'd done 0:03:36.525 --> 0:03:39.325 the wrong thing. I wanted to own up to it. 0:03:39.965 --> 0:03:41.405 I felt, if you're going to be big enough to 0:03:41.685 --> 0:03:43.245 do this sort of stuff, then own up to it 0:03:43.325 --> 0:03:45.725 and just go through the process and whatnot. But there 0:03:45.725 --> 0:03:47.805 are a lot of things that people need to realize 0:03:47.925 --> 0:03:50.845 that in that as soon as I was taken back 0:03:50.845 --> 0:03:53.405 to the station, they actually said to me, you know, 0:03:54.285 --> 0:03:57.445 if you don't confess, we're going to get too uniformed 0:03:57.445 --> 0:04:02.005 officers to go up to the children's school and preschool 0:04:02.205 --> 0:04:05.485 and put them in foster care. Now, there were two 0:04:05.485 --> 0:04:08.005 things about that was that I didn't know they couldn't 0:04:08.045 --> 0:04:10.045 do that, so it was a bluff. And I sang 0:04:10.085 --> 0:04:13.045 like a bird anyway, so I had full intentions of it. 0:04:13.085 --> 0:04:14.805 So it was sort of a mute point. But what 0:04:14.845 --> 0:04:17.085 it did made me realize is that, you know, a 0:04:17.085 --> 0:04:19.045 lot of times when I used to sit back and think, well, 0:04:19.165 --> 0:04:21.725 police don't use these sort of tactics, you know, I 0:04:21.765 --> 0:04:23.965 actually saw firsthand. So a lot of women that say 0:04:24.125 --> 0:04:26.685 they were treated certain ways, I can say, you know, 0:04:26.965 --> 0:04:28.565 but that's not everyone in the police force. 0:04:28.565 --> 0:04:33.685 Obviously, where did they take you from the gym. 0:04:32.245 --> 0:04:35.085 Back to the police station and then back out to 0:04:35.125 --> 0:04:37.485 my house. When we got out to the house, there 0:04:37.525 --> 0:04:40.245 was this great, big truck and about eight or nine 0:04:40.285 --> 0:04:43.605 police cars. It looked like a crime scene. As they 0:04:43.645 --> 0:04:46.005 were searching your house, they were removing every no, no, no, 0:04:46.045 --> 0:04:48.365 they just removed everything. They gutted it. They took everything 0:04:48.405 --> 0:04:53.245 that I had as restitution. I hadn't ever been charged yet, 0:04:53.365 --> 0:04:57.085 let alone tried or found guilty or whatnot. I hadn't 0:04:57.085 --> 0:05:00.765 even been interviewed. So I literally was back out there. 0:05:00.805 --> 0:05:01.965 They were gutting the house. 0:05:02.245 --> 0:05:04.805 So they took everything because they thought they might have 0:05:04.885 --> 0:05:08.445 been bought with the proceeds. Yes, crimes, because you'd embezzled 0:05:08.445 --> 0:05:09.245 money from your employe. 0:05:09.405 --> 0:05:10.205 Absolutely. Yeah. 0:05:10.245 --> 0:05:13.165 So at the time of your arrest, you had two 0:05:13.245 --> 0:05:14.605 little girls. How old were they? 0:05:14.685 --> 0:05:17.045 They were five and seven? 0:05:17.405 --> 0:05:20.885 And you talked about the time between knowing you'd been 0:05:20.965 --> 0:05:23.445 caught and then being arrested. 0:05:23.765 --> 0:05:23.965 Yep. 0:05:24.885 --> 0:05:27.725 I've always wondered what that time is like in terms 0:05:27.725 --> 0:05:31.205 of preparing. Essentially, you knew you were going to jail. 0:05:32.325 --> 0:05:36.245 Yes, but but knowing that and actually having it happen 0:05:36.365 --> 0:05:39.965 are two different things. You know, that time, I was 0:05:40.045 --> 0:05:42.645 just waiting. I can remember. It was like I was 0:05:42.685 --> 0:05:45.245 watching myself in the land room. You know, I can 0:05:45.725 --> 0:05:48.365 still see it now if I look into my memory, 0:05:48.565 --> 0:05:51.005 someone was watching me, just sitting and waiting and going 0:05:51.045 --> 0:05:53.045 through the motions. You know. I'd tuck the kids away 0:05:53.085 --> 0:05:55.325 with their dad sort of things so that, you know, 0:05:55.405 --> 0:05:57.765 if anything happened, they were with their dad. So I 0:05:57.765 --> 0:06:00.605 didn't want that used against me or to have to 0:06:00.645 --> 0:06:04.205 worry about that. The one thing that I couldn't do, 0:06:06.005 --> 0:06:08.285 And to this day it's still sort of, you know, 0:06:09.085 --> 0:06:11.765 make makes me sort of a little uneasy. As I 0:06:11.805 --> 0:06:14.845 couldn't tell the girls that I was leaving them. It 0:06:14.925 --> 0:06:16.965 didn't matter how I tried to gloss it up, It 0:06:17.005 --> 0:06:20.045 didn't matter how I tried to approach it. I couldn't 0:06:20.045 --> 0:06:25.125 do it. As and as fearless as I am, not, No, 0:06:25.645 --> 0:06:28.045 I absolutely couldn't. I left that up to you know, 0:06:28.085 --> 0:06:29.045 their father makes. 0:06:28.925 --> 0:06:30.765 You couldn't because it was too confronting for you. 0:06:31.125 --> 0:06:35.885 Yeah, and then yep, I can't even talk about it. 0:06:35.885 --> 0:06:38.845 It was just so difficult. So it was it was 0:06:39.125 --> 0:06:41.805 that I unfortunately left up to my ex husband, so 0:06:42.725 --> 0:06:45.045 it was easier, and I think it worked out that 0:06:45.085 --> 0:06:47.925 way better anyway, because they were eased into the thought 0:06:47.965 --> 0:06:50.285 process that I'd gone to More Durid to see the 0:06:50.325 --> 0:06:53.085 family and then something had happened, and something had happened, 0:06:53.125 --> 0:06:55.245 and so you know, it sort of dragged out for 0:06:55.285 --> 0:06:58.885 a little while before while mummy was gone, and then 0:06:59.085 --> 0:07:01.405 we sort of moved into that that having to tell 0:07:01.405 --> 0:07:02.685 them that I'm actually in prison. 0:07:03.485 --> 0:07:06.485 You were actually at the gym to try to build 0:07:06.565 --> 0:07:09.125 up your strength to prepare for prison. 0:07:09.605 --> 0:07:11.525 And again, you know, this is what I go to 0:07:11.565 --> 0:07:14.645 a lot of pains to talk about. You know about prison? 0:07:14.725 --> 0:07:14.925 Is it? 0:07:15.245 --> 0:07:17.525 In my mind? It was everything from the movie. 0:07:17.605 --> 0:07:19.765 So I, yes, did you watch Prisoner? 0:07:19.885 --> 0:07:20.845 No amazing? 0:07:21.885 --> 0:07:23.085 How old are you at this stage? 0:07:23.245 --> 0:07:27.245 Forty? Real life begins at forty, So in one way, 0:07:27.645 --> 0:07:29.565 I was just about to turn forty. I had my 0:07:29.645 --> 0:07:30.645 forties in prison. 0:07:31.165 --> 0:07:33.485 I've jumped ahead. I want to ask you about your 0:07:33.845 --> 0:07:38.605 first day arriving at prison. Were you so scared? No? 0:07:38.925 --> 0:07:41.965 But one of the reasons is with the women. It 0:07:42.005 --> 0:07:45.085 backs up and you go into police holding cells around Melbourne, 0:07:45.765 --> 0:07:49.045 and as one woman is released from prison, someone from 0:07:49.085 --> 0:07:51.365 the police holding cells in the order that they arrived 0:07:51.445 --> 0:07:53.245 goes out to the prison. So I was there for 0:07:53.325 --> 0:07:56.245 NELLI so the women's prisons are full always. 0:07:57.005 --> 0:07:58.605 In fact, they've just probably a whole up. 0:08:00.525 --> 0:08:06.325 They've just built another another block of cells out there 0:08:06.365 --> 0:08:06.805 as well. 0:08:06.965 --> 0:08:08.925 So you spent how long in the holding cells? 0:08:09.445 --> 0:08:12.965 Three weeks? You know, at least that was horrific. Because 0:08:13.445 --> 0:08:15.605 the police holding cells are run by the police. Now 0:08:16.325 --> 0:08:19.205 there's a big difference between police and corrections officers because 0:08:19.205 --> 0:08:21.325 the police are the police and the corrections officers are 0:08:21.365 --> 0:08:24.365 civilians that have done a six week training course. The 0:08:24.365 --> 0:08:27.605 police's job is thankless and I absolutely understand that and 0:08:27.645 --> 0:08:29.645 respect it. And in the Maraban holding cells, I was 0:08:29.685 --> 0:08:34.285 treated very very well, except for a female officer there. 0:08:34.845 --> 0:08:38.605 But you know, it's a really hard place. It's all concrete. 0:08:38.645 --> 0:08:41.325 You can't wear, you know, socks, you can't wear shoes. 0:08:41.365 --> 0:08:43.405 They used to just hose it out with a fire 0:08:43.405 --> 0:08:45.925 hose at six o'clock in the morning. This was winter 0:08:46.005 --> 0:08:48.165 and it was you know that the blankets all had 0:08:48.485 --> 0:08:50.845 women had lice, everyone was menstruating. 0:08:51.365 --> 0:08:51.405 It. 0:08:51.805 --> 0:08:54.485 It was just dreadful and if you needed pads or 0:08:54.525 --> 0:08:57.165 tampons whatever, you had to ask an officer and they 0:08:57.245 --> 0:08:59.805 bring you one. You know, they didn't just put it 0:08:59.845 --> 0:09:01.605 in the cell for you know, it was just. 0:09:01.605 --> 0:09:03.645 Horrible, so quite dehumanizing. 0:09:03.845 --> 0:09:05.725 Yep, yep. And I was in there with some old 0:09:05.765 --> 0:09:08.805 school heavies. You know, what does that mean? They'd been 0:09:08.845 --> 0:09:10.685 in prison hard times, and they knew all the people 0:09:10.685 --> 0:09:13.365 that needed to be known. You know. They were movies 0:09:13.445 --> 0:09:15.485 and shakers, you know, they you know, and sort of 0:09:15.525 --> 0:09:17.405 mucked with a lot of these you know. 0:09:18.165 --> 0:09:20.485 Did they look as scary as you're making them sound. 0:09:20.885 --> 0:09:26.685 Ah, No, because it's hard because there were some of 0:09:26.725 --> 0:09:28.445 them had you know, lots of tacts and whatever else. 0:09:28.485 --> 0:09:30.245 So that was a bit confronting to me, which I 0:09:30.325 --> 0:09:33.045 always assigned it as being tough. But they're also going 0:09:33.045 --> 0:09:35.805 through withdrawal, so I saw their vulnerabilities as well. 0:09:35.605 --> 0:09:37.845 You know, because a lot of them were taking drugs. 0:09:37.965 --> 0:09:40.685 Yeah. Yeah, they were all heroin addicts, you know, so 0:09:40.685 --> 0:09:42.605 so then they were going through withdraw so there was 0:09:42.925 --> 0:09:45.525 about as sick as you can be, you know. And 0:09:45.605 --> 0:09:48.325 so I saw both sides of that. And I've and 0:09:48.365 --> 0:09:51.685 I've always wondered, always wondered when I was in there 0:09:52.405 --> 0:09:56.685 that they could be so so weak and so sick 0:09:56.805 --> 0:09:59.245 yet still worry about how I was going, you know, 0:09:59.325 --> 0:10:01.965 because I was a newbie. I was you know, and 0:10:02.005 --> 0:10:04.845 that showed me a lot about the women and how 0:10:04.885 --> 0:10:06.405 women tend to look after each other. 0:10:06.645 --> 0:10:09.725 Were you the only white collar criminal in those holding sound? Yes? 0:10:09.845 --> 0:10:13.165 Yeah, And they knew straight away, you know, the nails 0:10:13.165 --> 0:10:16.565 gave it away well, you know, and I just didn't 0:10:16.605 --> 0:10:19.725 have the appearance of being a street criminal, so to speak. 0:10:20.485 --> 0:10:22.245 And are you still in your active car? 0:10:22.845 --> 0:10:27.445 I was, actually yes, I was. They thought I'd been 0:10:27.445 --> 0:10:30.405 done for shoplifting, you know. I was one of these 0:10:30.485 --> 0:10:33.845 you know, privileged women that you know, still needed something 0:10:33.845 --> 0:10:36.085 in their life. And I was like, no, No. 0:10:36.965 --> 0:10:38.565 The women that you were in the holding cell with, 0:10:38.605 --> 0:10:40.365 what kinds of things were they there for? 0:10:40.645 --> 0:10:44.085 Or on drugs? Drug charges? One was on a violent 0:10:44.165 --> 0:10:47.325 you know, a road rage thing, I think, but they 0:10:47.325 --> 0:10:50.005 were all related to being addicted to drugs, you know. 0:10:50.125 --> 0:10:53.405 So whether it be robbery, there was a fight on 0:10:53.485 --> 0:10:58.765 a platform or something over drugs and whatever, generally drugs. 0:10:59.125 --> 0:11:02.605 And you'll find that with most women, in the greater 0:11:02.725 --> 0:11:06.245 majority of women in prison, and it's such a sad 0:11:06.285 --> 0:11:09.645 thing because they don't want to be drug addicts, you know. 0:11:09.845 --> 0:11:13.325 But I would I've put this question a lot out 0:11:13.365 --> 0:11:15.525 there in the sense that if you've lived the lives 0:11:15.565 --> 0:11:17.725 that they have lived and then they end up being 0:11:17.805 --> 0:11:21.365 drug addicts. They're victims before they become perpetrators. And that's 0:11:21.405 --> 0:11:24.365 not an excuse, it's a fact. It's a research fact. 0:11:24.805 --> 0:11:28.485 And most you know, as opposed to men men men men, 0:11:28.605 --> 0:11:31.365 you know, they don't know their aggressives. You know, they'll 0:11:31.405 --> 0:11:33.805 get into a drug feud or you know, a turf 0:11:33.885 --> 0:11:35.925 war or something like that. You know, and they don't 0:11:36.045 --> 0:11:39.645 generally have an intimate relationship, whereas women, you know, they 0:11:40.365 --> 0:11:42.885 more often than not have an or had a relationship 0:11:42.885 --> 0:11:46.445 with their aggressors. They're violent, you know, perpetrator, and that 0:11:46.485 --> 0:11:48.925 person's probably told them I love you at least once 0:11:48.965 --> 0:11:51.565 in their life. And that could be the rapist father, 0:11:51.725 --> 0:11:54.525 it could be the domestic violence husband or partner. It 0:11:54.525 --> 0:11:57.645 could be you know, the brother, the priest, this, that 0:11:57.685 --> 0:11:59.125 and the other, you know, and a lot of the 0:11:59.165 --> 0:12:03.165 girls are then you know, they're victims of incest or 0:12:03.245 --> 0:12:05.925 rape or sexual abuse. Then they're turfed out on the 0:12:05.925 --> 0:12:07.805 street as soon as they start talking about it. They 0:12:07.845 --> 0:12:10.725 get onto drugs, then they have to commit crime. And 0:12:10.725 --> 0:12:12.925 they're more of a nuisance to society than they are 0:12:13.325 --> 0:12:15.885 a threat to society. And while I was in prison. 0:12:15.925 --> 0:12:20.645 There were no specialist programs for individual rape incest. There 0:12:20.685 --> 0:12:23.565 wasn't even domestic violence programs when I was there. 0:12:23.725 --> 0:12:26.405 I can't imagine how many women in prison, just about 0:12:26.485 --> 0:12:29.165 everyone sexual abuse or domestic violence. 0:12:29.805 --> 0:12:33.645 A very small minority aren't and they're the true criminals 0:12:33.845 --> 0:12:34.485 in my mind. 0:12:34.925 --> 0:12:38.685 When you arrived in prison, what was your experience, I mean, 0:12:38.685 --> 0:12:41.365 after the holding cells, it must have. Was it like 0:12:41.605 --> 0:12:43.285 arriving at a balley resort. 0:12:43.045 --> 0:12:48.725 Totally totally, except except I it was a prison had 0:12:48.765 --> 0:12:51.325 been locked down, and it was and then by the 0:12:51.365 --> 0:12:53.485 time we got you know, it takes a long time 0:12:53.525 --> 0:12:56.645 to be processed into a prison, so it was dark 0:12:57.605 --> 0:13:00.125 and we were escorted over to this unit. Now at 0:13:00.165 --> 0:13:02.045 the time, I don't know what unit was what, And 0:13:02.085 --> 0:13:05.805 I was put into a disabled celt because again the 0:13:05.805 --> 0:13:08.205 prison was full. It had a dinner, and it had 0:13:08.245 --> 0:13:10.245 a pillow, and it had shower. We didn't have to 0:13:10.285 --> 0:13:12.765 keep pushing the button and it has shampoo. And I 0:13:12.845 --> 0:13:15.085 was like, oh my god, this is this is what 0:13:15.205 --> 0:13:18.005 heaven is going to be like, you know. And then 0:13:18.085 --> 0:13:21.285 next morning, the next morning, the most terrifying thing you 0:13:21.325 --> 0:13:23.325 can do is when they come around and they open 0:13:23.405 --> 0:13:25.245 the doors to let you out. They let everyone in 0:13:25.325 --> 0:13:27.525 the prison out. I had no idea what was on 0:13:27.565 --> 0:13:29.845 the other side of that door. I didn't know what 0:13:30.445 --> 0:13:32.645 was prison as much as I come from the police 0:13:32.645 --> 0:13:34.285 holding cells, and I was sort of rough and ready, 0:13:34.485 --> 0:13:36.325 you know. Now, I didn't know what the big girls' 0:13:36.325 --> 0:13:39.645 school was like. And as I opened that door, I 0:13:39.725 --> 0:13:41.885 was I can remember standing at the door, going, just 0:13:41.965 --> 0:13:45.125 do it, you know this, just do it. And so 0:13:45.685 --> 0:13:49.085 I pushed it open a little bit and this giant 0:13:49.125 --> 0:13:52.165 woman just just pulled the doors off their hinges and said, 0:13:52.205 --> 0:13:54.765 you know good, I my name is Robin. Let's go 0:13:54.805 --> 0:13:56.605 for a walk. And I was like, and she was 0:13:56.605 --> 0:13:58.445 twice or so, and I'm like, yeah, I was, you know, 0:13:58.525 --> 0:14:00.725 I agreed with it. I was a very agreeable person 0:14:00.765 --> 0:14:02.925 all of a sudden, and I said, off we go. 0:14:03.885 --> 0:14:05.885 And we walked outside and she said, this is Bomber 0:14:06.365 --> 0:14:09.285 and I looked at Bomber and I realized it was 0:14:09.525 --> 0:14:13.165 because she followed Essendon and then there was Sparky, and 0:14:13.245 --> 0:14:16.525 Sparky wasn't an electrician. So she turned around. She said, 0:14:16.565 --> 0:14:19.085 you know, Bombers threatened, you know, she blows up airports 0:14:19.085 --> 0:14:22.565 and things like that, and judges and things and sparky lights, 0:14:22.605 --> 0:14:24.565 big fires and things like that, and I was like, 0:14:25.285 --> 0:14:26.685 and I was onder the fact that I went up 0:14:26.685 --> 0:14:29.085 to one of the offices and I said, I'm not sure. 0:14:29.685 --> 0:14:32.965 Call me old fashion, but I'm starting to suspect that 0:14:33.005 --> 0:14:36.125 I'm in the unit for the criminally insane. And she 0:14:36.205 --> 0:14:37.765 said she just sawt of looked at me, and she said, 0:14:37.765 --> 0:14:39.125 what makes you think that? And I looked over and 0:14:39.205 --> 0:14:41.805 I said, I said, that woman over there is drawing 0:14:41.805 --> 0:14:44.165 a face on her pillow and she's talking to her. 0:14:44.365 --> 0:14:47.165 And I said, I don't know, I'm just suspicious. Call me, 0:14:47.285 --> 0:14:50.005 call me old fashion, and she said, yeah, no you are. 0:14:50.325 --> 0:14:52.925 She said, it's just that, you know, am I insane? 0:14:53.605 --> 0:14:56.245 Because apparently only the insane people don't know they're insane? 0:14:56.285 --> 0:14:57.325 So I thought, am I one of them? 0:14:57.365 --> 0:14:58.245 My goodness? 0:14:58.285 --> 0:15:01.645 And they said they said no, look, the other place 0:15:01.725 --> 0:15:03.085 is full. You're just going to be here for a 0:15:03.165 --> 0:15:08.925 couple of days. And so that was my introduction to prison. 0:15:09.805 --> 0:15:12.845 And again, you know, after that, working that out and 0:15:13.085 --> 0:15:14.925 sort of getting to know people and putting your face 0:15:14.965 --> 0:15:18.005 out there as the new person, you know, then the 0:15:18.085 --> 0:15:20.925 wonder because it's such a place that doesn't change, so 0:15:20.965 --> 0:15:23.485 as soon as you see new faces. That's the only 0:15:23.525 --> 0:15:26.605 thing in your world that changes. So you've got to 0:15:26.645 --> 0:15:27.725 just get in amongst it. 0:15:28.125 --> 0:15:34.165 You're in a high maximum security women's prison. Why maximum security, because. 0:15:33.925 --> 0:15:36.245 Where there's such a small population of women in prison 0:15:36.645 --> 0:15:40.365 in Victoria anyway, there's a maximum security prison. You only 0:15:40.405 --> 0:15:43.845 need the prison, you only need one prisoner in there 0:15:43.845 --> 0:15:46.005 to be maximum security, for the whole place to be 0:15:46.085 --> 0:15:48.925 maximum security. The only other place we have is Taran 0:15:48.965 --> 0:15:52.005 Gauer and it's minimum. It's not medium, it's minimum, and 0:15:52.045 --> 0:15:54.445 it's right out towards Bendigos. 0:15:54.445 --> 0:15:57.805 But I would have thought you would have been minimum security. 0:15:57.885 --> 0:16:00.565 I mean it was you have to be sentenced first 0:16:00.685 --> 0:16:03.525 a white collar crime, but you have to be sentenced first. 0:16:03.685 --> 0:16:06.805 So I was on remand for eighteen months. So while 0:16:06.845 --> 0:16:09.365 you're on remand, your maximum security and it's only you. 0:16:09.445 --> 0:16:12.525 Remind me the part between being charged and being sentenced. 0:16:12.605 --> 0:16:14.485 Yeah, you're in prison awaiting your trial. 0:16:14.645 --> 0:16:19.165 Okay, So no bail for you, no. 0:16:18.285 --> 0:16:21.485 No, And so they hold you because they have enough 0:16:21.845 --> 0:16:24.845 evidence to support going to trial. It's how long your 0:16:25.445 --> 0:16:28.205 trial gets to go to court, and on the bigger 0:16:28.245 --> 0:16:30.685 cases it's usually out in months to two years. So 0:16:31.565 --> 0:16:36.365 your maximum security. The minimum security prison has no fences, 0:16:36.565 --> 0:16:39.925 so only people on very short sentences that if they 0:16:40.165 --> 0:16:42.685 know they're not going to run the risk of running away. 0:16:42.765 --> 0:16:44.765 You wouldn't put someone up there on murder, you know, 0:16:44.805 --> 0:16:48.365 in twenty years, because they'll run. So you've only got 0:16:48.765 --> 0:16:51.685 this one prison that holds everyone, So everyone in it 0:16:51.685 --> 0:16:54.645 is maximum security. Even though once I was sentenced, I 0:16:54.645 --> 0:16:56.925 could have gone to Tarangouer, but I didn't want to. 0:16:57.085 --> 0:17:00.045 I had a really important role at the maximum security prison, 0:17:00.125 --> 0:17:02.525 and to me, it wasn't maximum. It was just my prison. 0:17:03.165 --> 0:17:05.165 How is it different from what you expected? 0:17:05.485 --> 0:17:08.165 Because it's a funny place as well. Once you settle 0:17:08.245 --> 0:17:10.485 in and you know where you stand, I suss that 0:17:10.565 --> 0:17:16.285 out very very quickly. I have a good intuition and whatnot. 0:17:16.325 --> 0:17:19.925 I'm also very interested in women. I was also very 0:17:20.045 --> 0:17:22.685 much one of them. I never set myself aside from them. 0:17:22.965 --> 0:17:24.765 Whether it was a drug crime, whether it was murder, 0:17:24.805 --> 0:17:26.925 whether it was whatever. I was right in there with them, 0:17:27.005 --> 0:17:30.005 you know. So I didn't Sometimes in prison, white collar 0:17:30.045 --> 0:17:33.205 people contend to separate themselves and go, well, you know, 0:17:33.365 --> 0:17:35.085 I didn't harm anyone, and I didn't do this and 0:17:35.125 --> 0:17:37.005 that the other and because you don't actually get your 0:17:37.045 --> 0:17:41.525 hands dirty. That's that's today's nail. That's a sure fire 0:17:41.645 --> 0:17:44.885 way of getting the compound to turn against you. You know. 0:17:45.045 --> 0:17:47.645 So I was very much a part of them, and 0:17:47.725 --> 0:17:51.005 I you know, I liked a great deal of the women. 0:17:51.045 --> 0:17:53.965 Some of them I couldn't stand, but like any group 0:17:54.005 --> 0:17:57.245 of yeah, exactly, that's that's my point. But it's it's 0:17:57.365 --> 0:18:00.765 I liked the vast majority of women. Once they come 0:18:00.805 --> 0:18:03.005 off there withdrawals and they come off their drugs and 0:18:03.045 --> 0:18:06.125 whatever else, that's when they really need help, because that's 0:18:06.125 --> 0:18:08.805 when reality for them really sort of settles in. And 0:18:09.405 --> 0:18:11.205 you know, so I liked the woman. 0:18:12.805 --> 0:18:15.605 Did you have to suspend judgment? 0:18:17.925 --> 0:18:21.605 That's a good question because sometimes yes and sometimes no. 0:18:22.365 --> 0:18:24.805 You know, the amount of women that come in that 0:18:25.045 --> 0:18:27.965 you know of a crime, and a big crime, whether 0:18:27.965 --> 0:18:30.245 it be murder or attempted murder, you know, on partners, 0:18:30.405 --> 0:18:34.445 you know, that to me just was water off a 0:18:34.525 --> 0:18:36.765 ducks back. You describe. 0:18:37.925 --> 0:18:40.245 Tending to one person who arrives because you sort of 0:18:40.285 --> 0:18:45.325 greeted the new arts. Yeah, and she just stabbed her 0:18:45.325 --> 0:18:48.605 partner like twenty times, and as you were just sort 0:18:48.645 --> 0:18:52.085 of not processing her but kind of easing her into 0:18:52.165 --> 0:18:54.325 and making sure she was okay and settling her in. 0:18:55.605 --> 0:18:57.845 She was just telling you about her crimes, and you 0:18:57.885 --> 0:18:58.565 were just like. 0:18:59.365 --> 0:19:00.765 I remember that I was. I was trying to make 0:19:00.765 --> 0:19:04.405 her a cup of coffee and she and you know, 0:19:04.565 --> 0:19:06.165 and she was sort of like she was just sitting 0:19:06.485 --> 0:19:08.885 And this is what tended to happen, is that it'll 0:19:08.925 --> 0:19:11.285 be the first that they can confess about something or 0:19:11.325 --> 0:19:12.965 get it off their chests. Not so much confess, but 0:19:13.005 --> 0:19:14.565 get it off their chest. It's probably a better way 0:19:14.565 --> 0:19:17.245 of saying it because they know they're around someone who cares. 0:19:17.285 --> 0:19:20.405 I've made that very upfront. They also know that I'm 0:19:20.445 --> 0:19:22.365 not going to say anything. I'm one of them. I'm not, 0:19:22.605 --> 0:19:24.445 you know, and no one will listen to me anyway, 0:19:24.645 --> 0:19:27.085 And I don't care. They've got a due process that 0:19:27.125 --> 0:19:30.165 they can go through. But sometimes people want to do that, 0:19:30.205 --> 0:19:32.045 you know. They feel the need that they can talk 0:19:32.085 --> 0:19:33.685 to someone that they can trust. They don't even know 0:19:33.725 --> 0:19:37.245 their lawyers by that stage. So and I remember she 0:19:37.285 --> 0:19:39.565 was sitting there, and I think it's the first time 0:19:39.765 --> 0:19:44.125 because the crime of stabbing him was only about five 0:19:44.165 --> 0:19:48.445 hours old, so she'd been caught taken through the police system, 0:19:48.485 --> 0:19:51.525 which is very non individual sort of you know, and 0:19:51.565 --> 0:19:53.365 then brought out here. So I was the first person, 0:19:53.325 --> 0:19:55.245 and when she sat down next to me, I said 0:19:55.285 --> 0:19:59.325 to her, sweetheart, you're fine, You're safe. You're safe here. 0:19:59.365 --> 0:20:02.165 We women are going to look after you. And it's okay. 0:20:02.325 --> 0:20:03.965 I need you to know that so that you can 0:20:04.125 --> 0:20:06.325 then relax and we can start working on where you're 0:20:06.325 --> 0:20:09.325 going to go. Have you got kids, tell me about 0:20:09.445 --> 0:20:12.045 your kids, that sort of stuff, And that's that can 0:20:12.085 --> 0:20:16.165 bring a whole new wave of safety, because sometimes it's 0:20:16.205 --> 0:20:18.165 safer on the inside than it is on the outside, 0:20:18.285 --> 0:20:20.765 you know, because the outside is where the crimes are committed. 0:20:21.245 --> 0:20:24.165 On the inside, we're dealing with broken people themselves. But 0:20:24.205 --> 0:20:27.125 I'd heard it so many times, you know, And I 0:20:27.165 --> 0:20:30.605 remember I was trying to she just wasn't cooperating and 0:20:31.045 --> 0:20:35.365 getting this coffee made for her and she wants your girls, 0:20:35.405 --> 0:20:37.565 and she's like, she's like, then I stabbed in, you know, 0:20:37.765 --> 0:20:40.165 and and and you know, I could I could hear 0:20:40.245 --> 0:20:43.365 this noise in his chest and then I'd be like, right, sorry, 0:20:43.525 --> 0:20:46.165 you know, did you want milk in that? In that coffee? 0:20:46.365 --> 0:20:48.725 She's said, yeah, yeah, I have to milk. I said, 0:20:48.765 --> 0:20:50.805 to her, Oh okay, so sorry, sorry you were stabbing 0:20:50.885 --> 0:20:52.805 him and you heard noises like you just pick up 0:20:52.805 --> 0:20:54.805 from there and off we go. And it wasn't until 0:20:54.805 --> 0:20:57.205 one of the officers said to me, you know, Jesus, 0:20:57.645 --> 0:21:00.565 you know, and then I started thinking, okay, maybe this 0:21:00.685 --> 0:21:05.045 is becoming just too common. It's becoming too common for me. 0:21:05.165 --> 0:21:07.605 So those sort of crimes I never you know, I 0:21:07.645 --> 0:21:09.885 never ever had any judgment there. There are a couple 0:21:09.925 --> 0:21:12.325 of people that I did have judgment on absolutely, but 0:21:12.365 --> 0:21:16.205 that was because I absolutely did not like them their heart, 0:21:16.245 --> 0:21:19.765 their soul or whatever, and that's just part and parcel 0:21:19.765 --> 0:21:24.085 of a community of women. But you know, yeah, I 0:21:24.085 --> 0:21:26.485 didn't have any any judgment at all. 0:21:26.525 --> 0:21:29.205 What about the place in prison of women who are 0:21:29.205 --> 0:21:31.525 there for her harming or killing their kids. 0:21:32.725 --> 0:21:36.485 That's in protection from protection from protection. So you've got protection, 0:21:36.805 --> 0:21:40.885 which is which is generally where women go if they 0:21:41.125 --> 0:21:44.685 are if someone on the compound, on the main part 0:21:44.685 --> 0:21:46.925 of the prison is a threat to them, and it 0:21:46.965 --> 0:21:50.325 will always be if someone has testified against another prisoner. 0:21:50.365 --> 0:21:52.325 So you might have two women that have done the 0:21:52.325 --> 0:21:55.565 same crime and one is staying, you know, quiet, and 0:21:55.565 --> 0:21:58.005 the other one goes. It was her. So that's the 0:21:58.005 --> 0:21:59.925 worst thing that can happen in a criminal world. So 0:21:59.965 --> 0:22:02.485 they'll go to the protection or what they call the boner, 0:22:04.045 --> 0:22:06.445 so they'll go to protection for that. People that have 0:22:07.325 --> 0:22:09.485 that have sexually abused their kids and want to go 0:22:09.525 --> 0:22:12.805 to another area that's within that and even smaller, and 0:22:12.805 --> 0:22:17.285 that's protection from protection because the women that have sexually abused. 0:22:16.925 --> 0:22:19.125 Their kids or harmed there. 0:22:19.205 --> 0:22:22.805 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the women that are in protection anyway, 0:22:22.965 --> 0:22:25.805 they're still just normal creams that have given somebody else up. 0:22:25.805 --> 0:22:29.365 But they still have opinions about women harming children, so 0:22:29.405 --> 0:22:32.005 they need to and I don't understand. Let's just go back. 0:22:32.365 --> 0:22:36.845 So the women who've harmed their children, they they in 0:22:36.885 --> 0:22:37.765 a separate place. 0:22:37.925 --> 0:22:40.725 But there in where we were there there's a protection 0:22:40.885 --> 0:22:44.325 building and there's the protection prisoners off to the right 0:22:44.445 --> 0:22:48.925 and then off to the left. They're segregated again, they 0:22:49.165 --> 0:22:52.165 because the women in protection still have issues with them, 0:22:52.245 --> 0:22:52.685 let alone. 0:22:52.845 --> 0:22:57.045 So they're the lowest of the absolutely in pretty much everybody. 0:22:57.245 --> 0:23:00.485 And particularly in women as well, because because all of 0:23:00.485 --> 0:23:04.245 the women see themselves in those tormented kids. You know, 0:23:04.645 --> 0:23:08.805 they've all been sexually abused, you know, ninety percent probably 0:23:08.845 --> 0:23:11.045 more have been sexually abused as a child, so they 0:23:11.085 --> 0:23:13.085 know what it's like. And then this woman comes in 0:23:13.165 --> 0:23:14.805 saying that this is what they've done to their child. 0:23:14.965 --> 0:23:17.085 They see themselves in those children, and. 0:23:17.005 --> 0:23:21.205 It's just you know, it's just quarantine and population. 0:23:21.325 --> 0:23:24.885 Oh yes, And and when they're moved, the entire prison 0:23:24.925 --> 0:23:27.205 will be locked down. Everyone will be taken back to 0:23:27.245 --> 0:23:30.205 their cells or to their cottages and whatnot and lockdown 0:23:30.645 --> 0:23:33.885 because if they're you know, if if there's any prisoners 0:23:33.885 --> 0:23:36.685 out on the compound. When these women are on the compound. 0:23:36.965 --> 0:23:38.805 Film, what do you do for sex? 0:23:39.445 --> 0:23:42.365 Well, it depends. You know, I'm heterosexual, and I wasn't 0:23:42.365 --> 0:23:45.445 about to. It didn't interest me. You know, I can 0:23:45.565 --> 0:23:49.005 women can go without if they need to. Young younger women, 0:23:49.805 --> 0:23:51.925 of course, there were the ones that had you know, 0:23:51.965 --> 0:23:56.005 that come in that were gay and got into relationships 0:23:56.005 --> 0:23:58.805 with other women that were gay, which is which is fabulous, 0:23:58.845 --> 0:24:01.085 but that always ends in tears because someone gets released 0:24:01.125 --> 0:24:04.885 before somebody else, and then there's those expectations the younger girls. 0:24:04.885 --> 0:24:06.405 You know, it was just a it was just a 0:24:06.485 --> 0:24:10.325 sex sex word yep, gate gay gay cat. But you know, 0:24:10.365 --> 0:24:12.485 and that's and that's because women a lot of the 0:24:12.525 --> 0:24:15.965 women that were having sully, older women from say thirty on, 0:24:16.045 --> 0:24:19.645 that were having relationships with other women. It was more 0:24:19.725 --> 0:24:22.165 about the companionship, about the affection. 0:24:22.325 --> 0:24:22.525 You know. 0:24:22.565 --> 0:24:24.405 It was the first time that they had actually because 0:24:24.445 --> 0:24:27.365 I used to say, why change why, you know, And 0:24:27.685 --> 0:24:29.925 that's what it was about. Wasn't the companionship and that, 0:24:30.405 --> 0:24:32.085 you know, not having the crap belt out of you? 0:24:32.125 --> 0:24:35.125 I guess. So, you know, it's very complex situations when 0:24:35.165 --> 0:24:37.005 it comes to you know, you get it. You get 0:24:37.005 --> 0:24:39.485 a lot of girls that come in that are you know, 0:24:39.605 --> 0:24:41.725 twenty one, twenty two, you know, and they come and 0:24:41.805 --> 0:24:45.965 upset the balance of stable gay relationships in there. You know, 0:24:46.165 --> 0:24:47.725 they come in and just blow and put a hand 0:24:47.765 --> 0:24:50.525 grenade amongst it, and that causes a lot of issues, 0:24:50.725 --> 0:24:50.965 you know. 0:24:51.165 --> 0:24:55.085 So there are no conjugal visits with no no, no, 0:24:55.205 --> 0:24:56.565 and no sleeping with guards. 0:24:56.805 --> 0:24:56.965 No. 0:24:57.445 --> 0:24:59.525 I've been watching too much Orange in your Black. 0:24:59.805 --> 0:25:03.325 Yes. Yes, the American prisons are quite different, you know, 0:25:03.485 --> 0:25:07.205 but no at Taran Gower, there are you know you 0:25:07.245 --> 0:25:09.165 because they have the little family units and that's what 0:25:09.805 --> 0:25:12.565 four it's all. Tarang I was also good for women 0:25:12.605 --> 0:25:15.085 that are coming off twenty years sentences. They'll send them 0:25:15.125 --> 0:25:16.765 up there for the last three years, you know, or 0:25:16.805 --> 0:25:19.045 two years, you know, so that they can slowly because 0:25:19.085 --> 0:25:23.085 reintegrading back into the community is a huge, huge thing 0:25:23.205 --> 0:25:25.965 to be faced with. But you know, I know I was. 0:25:27.005 --> 0:25:29.885 I can't imagine after fifteen, sixteen, seven, eight years, you know, 0:25:29.965 --> 0:25:33.565 particularly is an older woman, you know, so, but we 0:25:33.605 --> 0:25:36.245 certainly didn't have no. This is a maximum security prison, 0:25:36.365 --> 0:25:38.885 so you know, maximum everything. 0:25:47.005 --> 0:25:50.005 Early on, you describe a conversation you had to have 0:25:50.045 --> 0:25:51.925 with your daughters on the phone when you had to 0:25:51.965 --> 0:25:55.125 tell them you couldn't come home and they couldn't understand why, 0:25:55.405 --> 0:25:57.925 and they were very distressed. They were five and seven 0:25:58.165 --> 0:26:04.085 when you were initially arrested. Yeah, how do you stay 0:26:04.165 --> 0:26:07.285 being a mum and stay connected to your children for 0:26:07.365 --> 0:26:09.205 those formative years when you're in prison. 0:26:09.605 --> 0:26:12.845 Look, it's the hardest thing ever, you know. I think 0:26:12.845 --> 0:26:14.365 that might have been when I was in the visit 0:26:14.445 --> 0:26:18.045 center when you know, I'm watching the first visit I 0:26:18.085 --> 0:26:20.285 had with the girls and they come racing in and 0:26:20.365 --> 0:26:23.245 you know, their little little arms and legs, you know, 0:26:23.365 --> 0:26:26.005 just hang off you. And then seeing them walked out 0:26:26.045 --> 0:26:30.805 of the visit center with two burly corrections officers you know, 0:26:30.965 --> 0:26:32.765 and to them, they were like policemen, you know, and 0:26:32.805 --> 0:26:35.245 they're yelling out, come with us, mummy, come with it. 0:26:35.245 --> 0:26:39.645 It still breaks my heart today, It just yeah, it 0:26:39.725 --> 0:26:43.365 just breaks my heart. So trying to remain relevant in 0:26:43.405 --> 0:26:48.885 their life was the thing that fuelled me because I 0:26:48.885 --> 0:26:52.165 always knew that I was going to get over the 0:26:52.285 --> 0:26:54.885 crime in a sense, you know, and I don't mean 0:26:54.925 --> 0:26:56.925 that in any disrespectful way, but I knew that I 0:26:56.965 --> 0:27:00.965 would be able to move through that. But to get 0:27:00.965 --> 0:27:03.885 my daughter's respect back and whatnot, I knew I had 0:27:03.925 --> 0:27:06.605 to do something much bigger than my sentence, you know, 0:27:06.725 --> 0:27:09.445 so that I could eclipse all of that and for 0:27:09.485 --> 0:27:11.325 them to say that they're proud of me from that 0:27:11.485 --> 0:27:15.245 moment to that moment, I had to do something major 0:27:15.525 --> 0:27:18.165 because you know, for the girls to be able to 0:27:18.205 --> 0:27:22.965 do that, we had six minute phone calls, you know, 0:27:23.365 --> 0:27:25.605 so six minutes with each child. Twelve minute phone calls 0:27:25.605 --> 0:27:28.085 and it cuts off. There are automated phones out there, 0:27:28.085 --> 0:27:30.925 and I had two a week, so when there's six 0:27:31.005 --> 0:27:34.325 and seven, you know, i'd have six minutes with its 0:27:34.405 --> 0:27:37.125 child and you know, three minutes into it, they still 0:27:37.165 --> 0:27:40.405 haven't said a word. You're there you're okay, sweetheart, or this. 0:27:40.605 --> 0:27:43.525 They might be crying and then they'll just start to 0:27:43.565 --> 0:27:47.325 open up, and you've got to say, put Channing on, 0:27:47.365 --> 0:27:49.645 put Channing on Sarah, puts Sarah's crying. 0:27:49.685 --> 0:27:49.845 You know. 0:27:50.285 --> 0:27:53.925 It's it's just I would have I didn't do anything 0:27:53.965 --> 0:27:57.685 wrong in prison, but I would have absolutely sold my 0:27:57.805 --> 0:28:00.885 soul for a mobile phone because I would have done anything. 0:28:01.485 --> 0:28:06.245 Decide women have them No, No, some women silly, stupidly enough, 0:28:06.485 --> 0:28:08.845 you know, brought brought them in. And they bring them 0:28:08.845 --> 0:28:13.245 in vaginally. Yeah, so I'll never forget. One day we 0:28:13.485 --> 0:28:17.405 didn't end up putting this book, but one woman had 0:28:17.485 --> 0:28:19.845 just arrived, and then we had dog squad raid, you know, 0:28:19.845 --> 0:28:21.965 from the police, and we were standing out in line. 0:28:22.245 --> 0:28:23.725 You know that they run the dogs over you to 0:28:23.765 --> 0:28:24.005 see that. 0:28:24.285 --> 0:28:25.205 How did that happen? Often? 0:28:25.365 --> 0:28:25.565 Yeah? 0:28:26.405 --> 0:28:27.285 What were they looking for? 0:28:27.405 --> 0:28:31.205 Drugs? Anything? They just it was a routine sort of thing. 0:28:31.125 --> 0:28:33.525 You know. So vagina is the way people would smuggle 0:28:33.565 --> 0:28:34.885 things in and out of the prison. 0:28:34.805 --> 0:28:38.125 Yep, yep. And and one woman can can bring in 0:28:38.125 --> 0:28:43.805 a ship loaded drugs really vaginally. I didn't, Yes, that's 0:28:43.885 --> 0:28:48.325 exactly totally so, you know, and this woman had brought 0:28:48.325 --> 0:28:50.445 in the tiny little mobile phone hadn't thought it through 0:28:50.685 --> 0:28:56.285 because it started ringing in her vagina. The dogs got 0:28:56.325 --> 0:28:58.205 of walking along with the dogs, you know, seeing if 0:28:58.205 --> 0:29:00.325 we've got drugged. And next to it there's this mobile phone. 0:29:00.365 --> 0:29:01.805 We could houst hear it and it was like and 0:29:01.845 --> 0:29:03.805 I'm like, oh my god, I looked at us. You 0:29:03.845 --> 0:29:04.925 said you're vagina ringing. 0:29:06.045 --> 0:29:09.645 It was yeah, and put it on flatious. 0:29:09.765 --> 0:29:11.525 It was hilarious. It was like you didn't think that 0:29:11.565 --> 0:29:16.005 one's really you know, some of those things were just 0:29:16.205 --> 0:29:19.005 you know, there are some really funny funny times in 0:29:19.085 --> 0:29:21.925 there as well. But yeah, so most of the most 0:29:21.925 --> 0:29:24.605 of the drugs. Because you're going to prison doesn't mean 0:29:24.605 --> 0:29:26.525 that you're going to stop taking drugs. You're an adict, 0:29:26.645 --> 0:29:28.485 and an addict is an addict is an addict. You 0:29:28.565 --> 0:29:30.925 get more drugs in prison than anywhere else, you know, 0:29:31.285 --> 0:29:33.845 because that's how it is. That's that's how it works. 0:29:33.965 --> 0:29:36.565 Everyone's an addict. They don't want to go through withdrawal, 0:29:37.125 --> 0:29:39.485 you know, and also being in prison is enough to 0:29:39.525 --> 0:29:40.765 probably take drugs as well. 0:29:41.005 --> 0:29:43.165 You've sat with a lot of people going through withdraw. 0:29:43.005 --> 0:29:47.085 Absolutely, yeah, and like horrific. It's it's it's terrific. They 0:29:47.085 --> 0:29:49.405 have diarrhea, they can't get off their beds. So the obvious, 0:29:49.565 --> 0:29:52.605 you know, happened to the sweating. The you know, some 0:29:52.645 --> 0:29:54.125 of them I thought were going to have a heart attack, 0:29:54.165 --> 0:29:56.005 you know that, and they were so some of them 0:29:56.005 --> 0:29:58.285 were like forty five, forty six, forty seven kilos, you 0:29:58.285 --> 0:30:01.365 know they were, And it was just wretched. It breaks 0:30:01.445 --> 0:30:03.685 your heart, you know. And one of the first things 0:30:03.725 --> 0:30:07.725 I did was able to get cordial. You know, I'd 0:30:07.725 --> 0:30:11.405 go up because everything's rat you know, so I'd sneak 0:30:11.485 --> 0:30:13.165 up to the kitchen and get the girls up there 0:30:13.805 --> 0:30:17.125 and would steal extra cordial to take another scamper back 0:30:17.165 --> 0:30:20.005 down to you know, the remanding unit with mo Hall, 0:30:20.245 --> 0:30:23.525 you know, and give them you know, generally straight cordial, 0:30:23.605 --> 0:30:25.205 just to get some sugar into their system. You know. 0:30:25.285 --> 0:30:29.765 It was just terrific. It's people really don't understand that, 0:30:29.805 --> 0:30:31.925 you know, why they would want to not go through 0:30:31.965 --> 0:30:32.485 a withdrawal. 0:30:33.125 --> 0:30:35.325 It sounds like you had such purpose. 0:30:35.965 --> 0:30:38.365 I did. I knew your own prison, Yeah, I did, 0:30:38.405 --> 0:30:40.725 you know, And I think I think it also too, 0:30:40.845 --> 0:30:44.565 was it It was also a distraction from me from 0:30:44.605 --> 0:30:47.645 my children, you know, trying to trying to. 0:30:47.565 --> 0:30:49.205 Just Sue, a mother and other women. 0:30:49.445 --> 0:30:51.765 Yeah, you know, and I was one of the healthiest there, 0:30:51.765 --> 0:30:55.005 and I could do this. Other girls, you know, they 0:30:55.085 --> 0:30:57.085 might have wanted to have but they couldn't. Either they 0:30:57.085 --> 0:31:00.325 didn't have the vocabulary or the education, or they were sick, 0:31:00.445 --> 0:31:03.045 or for whatever reason, it just happened to be there 0:31:03.085 --> 0:31:05.365 was a gap, and I happened to be there. One 0:31:05.405 --> 0:31:07.045 of the other things I did with the girls, too, 0:31:07.205 --> 0:31:10.965 was that we've all got good sense of humor, the 0:31:10.965 --> 0:31:13.405 girls as well. And so I'd get a card each 0:31:13.485 --> 0:31:17.365 day from the canteen, and I got the programs officers 0:31:17.365 --> 0:31:19.485 to get me some joke books, kids joke books, and 0:31:20.325 --> 0:31:23.525 each day I'd write in the card, you know, and 0:31:23.565 --> 0:31:26.765 I sequenced them so that you know, there was this 0:31:26.925 --> 0:31:31.525 ongoing fluid connection. So I'd say, you know, one card 0:31:31.525 --> 0:31:33.485 each I'll go dish and today I thought of you 0:31:33.765 --> 0:31:36.525 a hundred times, and then I'd put a joke in it, 0:31:37.085 --> 0:31:39.965 and then i'd do the same for Sarah. And then 0:31:40.005 --> 0:31:42.325 the next day i'd tell them what the answer to 0:31:42.365 --> 0:31:44.245 the joke was. And I thought of more one hundred 0:31:44.285 --> 0:31:46.965 and one times, right up until it was sixteen hundred 0:31:46.965 --> 0:31:49.245 times a day that I was thinking of them, and 0:31:49.485 --> 0:31:51.845 they've still got all those all of those you know, 0:31:51.885 --> 0:31:54.525 I didn't realize it until about twelve months ago. They've 0:31:54.525 --> 0:31:55.845 still got all the books of cards. 0:31:55.925 --> 0:32:00.125 Yeah, So it was that really like trying to parent, yeah, 0:32:00.165 --> 0:32:02.565 try trying to stay in their lives. 0:32:02.285 --> 0:32:05.565 Trying to stay in their lives. I couldn't parent. And 0:32:05.645 --> 0:32:07.245 it got to the point too where you know, they 0:32:07.245 --> 0:32:10.485 were talking, their lives were moving on and so naturally, 0:32:10.565 --> 0:32:12.565 so when they would come and talk to me about 0:32:13.485 --> 0:32:15.925 people I didn't know them, they were new friends, they 0:32:15.965 --> 0:32:19.965 were knew. So I just wasn't interested in that side 0:32:19.965 --> 0:32:24.885 of things because in prison, it's about the actual tangible connection, 0:32:25.045 --> 0:32:27.725 physical connection with me and my girls. When they started 0:32:27.725 --> 0:32:30.845 talking about stuff on the outside, I couldn't even visualize 0:32:30.965 --> 0:32:32.525 who they were or what they were or where they 0:32:32.525 --> 0:32:35.085 come from or whatever. So to me, they just weren't relevant. 0:32:35.605 --> 0:32:38.405 And it also showed how much I was missing out on, 0:32:38.885 --> 0:32:40.205 you know, So when they come to see me, I 0:32:40.285 --> 0:32:41.685 just wanted to sit and talk to them and just 0:32:41.765 --> 0:32:44.525 be with them and you know, be in that moment 0:32:44.645 --> 0:32:47.565 with them. So it was there's a disconnection there as well, 0:32:47.565 --> 0:32:49.445 because I just know who they'll talk about, you. 0:32:49.365 --> 0:32:53.085 Know, some of the women in there have arrived pregnant. 0:32:53.925 --> 0:32:56.045 And what happens if you give birth in jail? How 0:32:56.045 --> 0:32:56.565 does that go? 0:32:56.925 --> 0:32:58.725 Well, it depends. You know, most of the women that 0:32:58.805 --> 0:33:03.165 arrive that are pregnant, the fair majority when I was 0:33:03.165 --> 0:33:06.285 there anyway, were drug users. So the child was born addicted. 0:33:07.525 --> 0:33:11.125 Where possible, the child will be kept with the mother, 0:33:11.925 --> 0:33:12.885 and so the mother. 0:33:12.805 --> 0:33:14.485 Even if they were an addicted Yep. 0:33:14.605 --> 0:33:16.885 Absolutely, the mother will be taken into the hospital, she'll 0:33:16.925 --> 0:33:19.405 give birth, she'll come back out, and then she'll go 0:33:19.525 --> 0:33:21.725 back in each day to see the child where needed, 0:33:21.965 --> 0:33:24.845 or stay in there with them once she's okay. Bubb 0:33:24.885 --> 0:33:27.205 will usually stay on a little bit longer because they're addicted. 0:33:27.925 --> 0:33:29.685 But the prison will take the mother in and out 0:33:30.005 --> 0:33:32.365 and whatnot, and then the baby will come back. Unless 0:33:32.405 --> 0:33:35.805 there's any unless she's been convicted of a violent crime, 0:33:36.005 --> 0:33:39.845 unless there's been child offenses beforehand, unless DHS are involved, 0:33:39.965 --> 0:33:42.845 you know that sort of stuff, taking it out. All 0:33:42.885 --> 0:33:44.445 of that, the child will come back to the prison 0:33:44.445 --> 0:33:47.965 with the mother. And in my mind, I still stand 0:33:48.005 --> 0:33:50.925 by the fact that a child should be with its mother. 0:33:51.165 --> 0:33:53.405 So long was it safe a child shall be with 0:33:53.405 --> 0:33:55.685 this mother, Because I know with my daughters. You know, 0:33:56.365 --> 0:33:58.285 the love of a child, as you know, can never 0:33:58.365 --> 0:34:01.445 ever be touched, but the bond can absolutely be broken. 0:34:01.605 --> 0:34:04.285 And that's never good for anybody because you know, the 0:34:04.405 --> 0:34:07.605 particularly for the child. So the child needs to know 0:34:07.725 --> 0:34:10.605 that and have that connection with it for the whole time. 0:34:11.085 --> 0:34:13.565 The hidden victims of all of these are children that 0:34:13.605 --> 0:34:15.765 think that their mother's abandoned them, and that's worse than 0:34:15.765 --> 0:34:19.725 their father abandoned them, I believe, you know, because that 0:34:19.845 --> 0:34:23.925 mothering nurturing side, if it's lost when they're younger, it 0:34:23.965 --> 0:34:27.445 gives them the opportunity and the vulnerability to then enter 0:34:27.485 --> 0:34:30.365 into relationships like that where they feel rejected, you know, 0:34:30.485 --> 0:34:32.165 where they're not worth it. 0:34:32.445 --> 0:34:35.645 What was the narrative your girls were told about where 0:34:35.685 --> 0:34:36.805 you were and why you were there. 0:34:37.845 --> 0:34:41.005 We were honest with with where they were and with 0:34:41.205 --> 0:34:46.805 worth while I was there, and they started visiting me 0:34:46.845 --> 0:34:49.965 at the prison pretty early on. After a while they 0:34:49.965 --> 0:34:52.605 got used to it, and I don't think the funny 0:34:52.605 --> 0:34:54.805 thing is now yeah, so they got used to it. 0:34:54.885 --> 0:34:55.085 You know. 0:34:56.045 --> 0:34:59.445 The hard part was was was, as I said, I 0:34:59.485 --> 0:35:01.805 couldn't you know, say I'm not coming home next week. 0:35:01.845 --> 0:35:04.445 I'm not coming home next month, I'm not coming home 0:35:04.485 --> 0:35:05.605 for years, you know. 0:35:06.405 --> 0:35:08.325 Oh, that's impossible for kids to think. 0:35:09.765 --> 0:35:12.805 So what I do and it was just by default, 0:35:12.805 --> 0:35:15.005 but because I didn't master plan this sort of thing, 0:35:15.045 --> 0:35:17.445 but it worked out better was drip feed them a 0:35:17.445 --> 0:35:20.285 little bit at a time, hopefully after Christmas, the judge 0:35:20.045 --> 0:35:22.285 will tell him when Mommy can come home, you know, 0:35:22.605 --> 0:35:24.125 even though I knew it was going to be, you know, 0:35:24.445 --> 0:35:27.205 i'd do it in six months since you know. And 0:35:27.485 --> 0:35:29.565 at the same time, they were sort of moving along 0:35:29.605 --> 0:35:31.685 a little bit as well. It was so living with 0:35:31.685 --> 0:35:34.325 their dad, yeah, and it was so different, and he 0:35:34.405 --> 0:35:36.805 was terrific. You know. I was so fortunate that they 0:35:36.885 --> 0:35:39.805 had a father that they could live with that tended 0:35:39.845 --> 0:35:43.645 to them where the mother was away, you know. So 0:35:43.685 --> 0:35:47.485 it was it was really quite It was really quite 0:35:47.485 --> 0:35:51.525 difficult for them to understand, particularly why Mum isn't there. 0:35:51.605 --> 0:35:53.685 But after a while they just got used to it. 0:35:54.005 --> 0:35:56.565 And I was only talking to Sarah, who's twenty one tomorrow, 0:35:56.725 --> 0:35:58.605 about this the other day and she said, you know, 0:35:58.765 --> 0:36:02.125 she just doesn't remember, and I think that's just that's 0:36:02.125 --> 0:36:05.085 something that she just probably doesn't want to remember, because 0:36:05.085 --> 0:36:08.325 she remembers things prior to that, so, you know, but 0:36:08.685 --> 0:36:11.645 it's nice to know that. You know, these are two 0:36:11.845 --> 0:36:17.525 very strong, really well you know, disciplined, really well organized, 0:36:17.725 --> 0:36:20.885 really responsible young women. You know, I'm very, very very 0:36:20.965 --> 0:36:22.405 lucky that it hasn't been generation. 0:36:23.525 --> 0:36:24.845 You've got a lot downe in the prison. 0:36:24.925 --> 0:36:29.045 You wrote a book, the children's book was I noticed 0:36:29.045 --> 0:36:31.125 a lot of women weren't seeing their kids. And again 0:36:31.285 --> 0:36:33.205 I go to great pains to say that women in 0:36:33.245 --> 0:36:36.725 prison do it tough, you know, and anybody that says 0:36:36.725 --> 0:36:40.765 anything different, it doesn't know. And they're not an authority 0:36:40.805 --> 0:36:44.045 on it, because they absolutely do. And you know, women 0:36:44.125 --> 0:36:46.885 from domestic violence are used to accepting blame. You know, 0:36:46.965 --> 0:36:49.925 it's always their fault, so you know that's they just 0:36:49.965 --> 0:36:51.645 get on with it. They're tough and they just get 0:36:51.685 --> 0:36:53.405 on with it. But they weren't seeing you know, a 0:36:53.405 --> 0:36:55.605 lot of them weren't seeing their kids, you know. And 0:36:55.645 --> 0:36:58.645 again it's not the women saying I'm their mother, I 0:36:58.645 --> 0:37:00.565 should be I've got every right so my kids blah 0:37:00.605 --> 0:37:03.085 blah blah. I've heard it all before. It's the children's 0:37:03.125 --> 0:37:04.925 right to see their mother. A child will visit their 0:37:04.925 --> 0:37:07.205 mother wherever they are and still love them. You know, 0:37:07.245 --> 0:37:10.445 they'll usually be you know, I won't even know what's 0:37:10.485 --> 0:37:12.925 around them. So that was what it was about, was 0:37:12.965 --> 0:37:15.285 it was trying to let everybody know that the prison 0:37:15.525 --> 0:37:18.685 is a safe place to visit, you know, for children 0:37:18.725 --> 0:37:22.365 to come to. The offices are fantastic, you know. They 0:37:22.445 --> 0:37:24.165 talked to the kids in her eyes, I was talking 0:37:24.165 --> 0:37:26.045 to your mummy the other day, you know. So it 0:37:26.085 --> 0:37:28.205 gives the kids this thought that they're in a mummy 0:37:28.285 --> 0:37:30.525 safe and she's in another community just for a little while. 0:37:30.605 --> 0:37:33.885 It's not necessarily a prison, so to speak. The visit 0:37:33.965 --> 0:37:36.805 center brand of Money was the general manager when I 0:37:36.885 --> 0:37:38.845 was there. He went to great pains to make sure 0:37:38.845 --> 0:37:42.245 that it was brightly colored, it had games, it had toys. 0:37:42.285 --> 0:37:44.805 You know, we could get photos taken with the kids, 0:37:44.845 --> 0:37:47.485 you know. So it was a really vibrant, you know, 0:37:48.165 --> 0:37:52.085 place to be. And I and my ex husband had 0:37:52.085 --> 0:37:55.525 issues as well, because, and understandably so, we had never 0:37:55.565 --> 0:37:58.805 been involved in the prison system before. He thought that 0:37:58.845 --> 0:38:01.445 the kids would come into the main compound and wander 0:38:01.485 --> 0:38:04.565 around and have barbecues with the arm robbers, and that 0:38:04.645 --> 0:38:07.165 I took offense with because everyone knew that you didn't 0:38:07.325 --> 0:38:10.045 invite the armed robbers for the barbecues as they always 0:38:10.085 --> 0:38:15.245 knocked off the meat. They seriously, so I wasn't having 0:38:15.285 --> 0:38:16.885 a part of that. So I thought, we'll have to 0:38:16.885 --> 0:38:20.405 write a book and educate people so that when, for instance, 0:38:20.445 --> 0:38:23.485 my or someone that's going to prison, we can get 0:38:23.525 --> 0:38:27.205 the book. Lawyers can give the book to the you know, 0:38:27.245 --> 0:38:28.845 the mum or the dad. And it's a color reading 0:38:28.885 --> 0:38:31.325 book and it steps through a visit that Shannon and 0:38:31.325 --> 0:38:34.085 Sarah have with me, and it'll say the dog squads 0:38:34.085 --> 0:38:37.125 come in, and the dogs are really friendly, but they're working, 0:38:37.165 --> 0:38:39.805 so you can't touch them, so that when the children 0:38:39.925 --> 0:38:42.885 come in they know what to expect. And then you know, 0:38:42.965 --> 0:38:45.565 Shannon took five dollars in coins and went and got 0:38:45.565 --> 0:38:47.925 some drinks from the drink machine, so we can let 0:38:48.005 --> 0:38:50.885 them know what to expect, what's available, but in a 0:38:51.005 --> 0:38:53.845 very friendly, in a very friendly way, and that and 0:38:53.885 --> 0:38:56.045 color it in so the kids are part of this 0:38:56.365 --> 0:38:59.165 interacting before they even get you know, get there. So 0:38:59.445 --> 0:39:01.285 and it was one that was still in operation today. 0:39:01.965 --> 0:39:05.325 It's in all the law firms and legal aids and whatnot. 0:39:05.325 --> 0:39:07.765 It was a really, really really good thing to do. 0:39:08.045 --> 0:39:09.045 I enjoyed it. 0:39:09.485 --> 0:39:12.525 One of the photos that I liked most in your 0:39:12.525 --> 0:39:16.885 book that I poured over was of your cell. Oh yeah, 0:39:17.165 --> 0:39:21.085 can you just describe that because there's so much I 0:39:21.085 --> 0:39:24.325 don't know myth around what a prisoner's cell might look like. 0:39:24.845 --> 0:39:27.885 Well, the one that's in the book is in the Cottages, 0:39:27.925 --> 0:39:30.565 but initially I was in the Romanian, which is a 0:39:30.565 --> 0:39:34.605 single cell. Now, if I stood, I did it many times. 0:39:34.645 --> 0:39:37.445 If I stood and walked to the length of my cell, 0:39:37.565 --> 0:39:40.485 it's fifteen and a half of my feet long, and 0:39:40.605 --> 0:39:42.645 I'm about a seven and a half shoe of. 0:39:42.645 --> 0:39:45.205 Your feet, but not in the steps. Fifteen and a 0:39:45.245 --> 0:39:47.605 half feet to heel. 0:39:47.685 --> 0:39:50.405 Yep, So fifteen and a half long. And if I 0:39:50.405 --> 0:39:52.725 stood in the middle of the cell and outstretched my 0:39:52.845 --> 0:39:54.885 arms and just moved a little to the right and 0:39:54.925 --> 0:39:56.685 the left, I could touch the walls on outher side. 0:39:56.765 --> 0:39:57.925 Is it one person personal? 0:39:58.045 --> 0:40:01.245 Yep, yep. Now in that room, you've then got a 0:40:01.285 --> 0:40:03.845 bed on a slab of concrete, You've got a shower, 0:40:03.925 --> 0:40:05.845 you've got a toilet, and you've got a desk. So 0:40:06.405 --> 0:40:10.085 there's only about you know, three or four feet of 0:40:10.245 --> 0:40:13.005 width that you can walk and then you've got you know, 0:40:13.925 --> 0:40:16.405 you've got barred window, not barred so to speak. But 0:40:16.445 --> 0:40:21.245 you know, reinforced windows that look out onto the razor wire. 0:40:21.285 --> 0:40:24.805 It's quite a treat in the book when you move 0:40:24.885 --> 0:40:27.405 up to the cabins, and therefore, because you can't I 0:40:27.445 --> 0:40:29.525 was in that cell. Usually you're in that cell for 0:40:29.565 --> 0:40:32.045 about two to three months. It's a settling cell. But 0:40:32.085 --> 0:40:33.805 it was in the reminding. I was in it for 0:40:33.805 --> 0:40:36.725 four day months because I was doing my work down 0:40:36.805 --> 0:40:40.885 at the greeting, so I decided to stay there. I 0:40:40.885 --> 0:40:42.445 was quite comfortable. I didn't need anything. 0:40:42.525 --> 0:40:42.805 I was. 0:40:43.005 --> 0:40:45.805 You know, when you move up to the cabins, because 0:40:45.845 --> 0:40:47.725 you can't have a woman in a single cell for 0:40:47.725 --> 0:40:50.765 twenty years. You know they'll go insane. You just can't 0:40:50.805 --> 0:40:53.005 do it. So the cottages up on the top end 0:40:53.085 --> 0:40:55.965 of the prison are for women doing long, long sentences. 0:40:56.605 --> 0:40:59.165 And because I was a peer educator, and you know, 0:40:59.205 --> 0:41:01.685 I was the youngest sort of nearly five years in 0:41:01.805 --> 0:41:03.165 sentences up there. 0:41:04.205 --> 0:41:06.725 You talk about the age of your sentence. So you're 0:41:06.805 --> 0:41:09.845 four or five, so you're young and someone old if 0:41:09.845 --> 0:41:10.725 they're twenty or third. 0:41:11.085 --> 0:41:12.845 Yeah, you know. So what happens is you go up 0:41:12.885 --> 0:41:16.285 to the cabins and you'll have five bedrooms, three showers, 0:41:16.285 --> 0:41:19.845 and a toilets at the back of the it's still 0:41:19.885 --> 0:41:21.085 within the cabin, the cottage. 0:41:21.085 --> 0:41:22.165 It's like a share house. 0:41:22.485 --> 0:41:25.485 It's like a it's yeah, absolutely, but it's built out 0:41:25.525 --> 0:41:28.285 a big best of blocks, concrete, best of blocks, and 0:41:28.325 --> 0:41:30.885 the front and the back door are all that's locked 0:41:30.885 --> 0:41:33.285 at night because you don't have toilets in your cells now, 0:41:34.285 --> 0:41:36.645 so we're free to walk around the unit as much 0:41:36.685 --> 0:41:39.245 as we want. And your cell look tiny, Yeah, it's 0:41:39.325 --> 0:41:40.925 very ear but it was bigger than the one in 0:41:40.925 --> 0:41:41.685 the reminding units. 0:41:41.725 --> 0:41:43.805 So when you say you were free to walk around, 0:41:43.925 --> 0:41:46.525 like I could not a slumber party though. 0:41:46.405 --> 0:41:48.245 Oh no, I could walk out of my unit and 0:41:48.965 --> 0:41:51.045 out of my cell and go out into the lounge 0:41:51.085 --> 0:41:52.845 area or make a cup of coffee or whatnot. But 0:41:52.885 --> 0:41:55.445 in a lockdown, so you can't. You'll make a coffee 0:41:55.485 --> 0:41:57.605 in your cell and that door shut until the next morning, 0:41:57.685 --> 0:41:59.925 you know. So there's a lot more movement up in 0:41:59.925 --> 0:42:02.165 the cabins, but they have to be because you know, 0:42:02.405 --> 0:42:04.405 you're up there for twenty years sort of thing. But 0:42:04.645 --> 0:42:07.605 that brings its own set of complexities as well, because 0:42:08.085 --> 0:42:10.485 women that are up there for two twenty years often 0:42:10.645 --> 0:42:13.005 like to take over the cabin because you know, my 0:42:13.125 --> 0:42:14.965 sentence is the longest start. You know, this is the 0:42:14.965 --> 0:42:17.165 way I like the cabin to be run, and this 0:42:17.165 --> 0:42:19.445 that and the other and blah blah blah. So and 0:42:19.485 --> 0:42:22.045 then there's who do you live with? You know, you 0:42:22.045 --> 0:42:24.445 you can't have someone in there that's incompatible because you 0:42:25.045 --> 0:42:28.085 hopefully you'll be living with this person for maybe five years. 0:42:28.165 --> 0:42:29.565 So who makes those decisions? 0:42:29.565 --> 0:42:32.885 The women in the unit. Generally the officers will come 0:42:32.925 --> 0:42:34.885 on board if we need that to do, but we 0:42:34.925 --> 0:42:36.365 would generally scout our own. 0:42:36.645 --> 0:42:38.245 Tell me about a day in the life. 0:42:38.485 --> 0:42:42.525 Well, it's Groundhog Day. Every day seven forty five, the 0:42:42.565 --> 0:42:45.325 compound puts out announcements to be up and ready dressed 0:42:45.325 --> 0:42:47.885 and ready for muster. And muster is where the officers 0:42:47.925 --> 0:42:51.605 go around every single cell or door or unit. I'll 0:42:51.645 --> 0:42:53.165 open up the front door and come in, and you've 0:42:53.165 --> 0:42:54.485 got to be standing by the door and they'll count 0:42:54.525 --> 0:42:56.405 you one, two, three, four, five, one to three fo 0:42:56.685 --> 0:42:59.085 and just to make sure no one's escaped. To a 0:42:59.125 --> 0:43:03.485 head count. Every morning, every lunchtime, every middle of the afternoon, 0:43:03.565 --> 0:43:07.605 and at night. There's four counts every day without fail. 0:43:08.405 --> 0:43:11.605 Doesn't matter what's happen. There's a count at those. 0:43:11.605 --> 0:43:13.445 Time, so you have to be up at seven forty five. 0:43:13.645 --> 0:43:14.525 Where's breakfast? 0:43:15.245 --> 0:43:17.325 Well, it depends, you know, if you're in the reminding 0:43:17.525 --> 0:43:19.685 the girls will you know, from the kitchen, will bring 0:43:19.725 --> 0:43:21.605 it down because you can't cook for yourself, so they'll 0:43:21.605 --> 0:43:24.205 bring it down to the units. We could cook for 0:43:24.245 --> 0:43:26.685 ourselves because it's a cabin so we'd order the food 0:43:26.685 --> 0:43:28.725 from the kitchen on I think it was at the 0:43:28.765 --> 0:43:32.365 time thirty three dollars per woman a week, and then 0:43:32.405 --> 0:43:34.765 someone in the cottage does all the ordering. What's the 0:43:34.805 --> 0:43:38.845 food like in jail, Well, the women, you know, I 0:43:38.845 --> 0:43:41.325 think it's pretty cheap. You can do your own cooking 0:43:41.405 --> 0:43:44.685 in the cabins, you can, yeah, but the women in 0:43:44.725 --> 0:43:47.405 the kitchen prisoners as well, they do all the cooking 0:43:47.445 --> 0:43:49.285 there as well, so they look after their own. And 0:43:49.565 --> 0:43:52.165 it's actually pretty good. It's the meat and sort of 0:43:52.165 --> 0:43:54.085 stuff that I think would be fairly cheap. It's not, 0:43:54.645 --> 0:43:57.325 you know, but you get used to that. I wouldn't. 0:43:57.365 --> 0:44:00.925 I would not. It wasn't bad food. And because it's 0:44:01.685 --> 0:44:05.925 cooked by the girls who have at them, you know 0:44:05.925 --> 0:44:07.765 at one stage been in the remand unit who are 0:44:07.765 --> 0:44:12.125 being cooked for you know, it's damn good, I think, yeah. 0:44:11.285 --> 0:44:13.365 And so you have breakfast, then. 0:44:13.245 --> 0:44:15.485 What do you have? And then it's medication time. So 0:44:15.765 --> 0:44:19.005 because so many women are on medication, whether it be 0:44:19.445 --> 0:44:25.525 to ease their withdrawal from anxiety, depression, bipolar, you name it, 0:44:25.605 --> 0:44:29.565 you know, just mental health issues, you know, for a. 0:44:29.525 --> 0:44:33.085 Stasteril, medication, heart mads for that, older women, all kinds 0:44:33.085 --> 0:44:33.885 of things, everything. 0:44:34.285 --> 0:44:37.525 So you line up at that and you line up, 0:44:37.565 --> 0:44:40.285 the nurse has your file, they'll give you the medication. 0:44:40.805 --> 0:44:43.285 The officers check your mouth so that you haven't stored 0:44:43.325 --> 0:44:46.165 it to sell to somebody else, which is often the case. 0:44:47.365 --> 0:44:49.205 And that could go for quite some time. And then 0:44:49.245 --> 0:44:51.805 you've got to go to work. And this is something 0:44:51.885 --> 0:44:58.085 that I object to because prison and your sentence. One 0:44:58.125 --> 0:45:01.365 can never ever trivialize a prison sentence. So I hear 0:45:01.405 --> 0:45:03.165 people say, oh, she just got two years or she's 0:45:03.165 --> 0:45:06.085 got three years. That is two or three years. But 0:45:06.205 --> 0:45:10.685 what comes with that is huge. Everything else around you 0:45:10.765 --> 0:45:15.685 becomes this big black hole that everything falls into relationships, children, family, 0:45:15.845 --> 0:45:19.045 you know, careers, all that sort of stuff. So it's 0:45:19.125 --> 0:45:23.925 not just plus you are exiled totally from the outside world, 0:45:24.085 --> 0:45:27.605 you know, so that's fair enough. You know, and I think, 0:45:27.965 --> 0:45:30.325 you know, you've got to sort of understand that that's 0:45:30.885 --> 0:45:33.805 there's so much more than just a sentence, you know, 0:45:34.365 --> 0:45:36.365 so when you're in prison, then I don't think it 0:45:36.605 --> 0:45:38.645 should be a double sentence where you've got to work 0:45:38.765 --> 0:45:44.885 for five dollars a day on menial silly tasks. To me, 0:45:45.285 --> 0:45:47.805 it should be a program prison. As soon as that 0:45:47.845 --> 0:45:51.365 women get their medication, they then go to a cooking 0:45:51.405 --> 0:45:54.765 class because most women can't cook for their children, you know, 0:45:55.085 --> 0:45:56.645 they've never cooked because they're drug addicts. 0:45:56.685 --> 0:45:59.405 You know, so you're I want to ask you what 0:45:59.445 --> 0:46:00.925 the menial silly tasks are. 0:46:01.485 --> 0:46:04.205 Well, the first thing I think of was when when 0:46:04.205 --> 0:46:05.445 I first got there, and I don't think they do 0:46:05.525 --> 0:46:07.205 it now, but when I first got there, it was 0:46:07.245 --> 0:46:10.125 sand in chairs. It was it was chairs that were 0:46:10.125 --> 0:46:12.605 made from wood and we'd have to hand sand them 0:46:12.765 --> 0:46:14.525 so that they could be sent off to Ikea or 0:46:14.525 --> 0:46:18.285 whatever else. You know, you spend hours, you spend eight 0:46:18.325 --> 0:46:23.285 hours handstanding a chair, you know, you know, stinking hot 0:46:23.325 --> 0:46:27.125 shed for Ikea or whatever. You know, when you could 0:46:27.165 --> 0:46:31.005 have all of these women instead doing a program on 0:46:31.605 --> 0:46:36.805 sexual abuse, domestic violence, you know, parenting programs, how to 0:46:36.885 --> 0:46:39.885 look after nutrition for themselves and their children that they've 0:46:39.925 --> 0:46:42.645 never had and all that sort of stuff. Education, you 0:46:42.765 --> 0:46:45.445 name it, so you know, but no, this is what 0:46:45.485 --> 0:46:49.485 they do. The Anzac Day badges all women prisoners, all 0:46:49.485 --> 0:46:52.325 female prisoners. So whenever you see an Anzac Day badge, 0:46:52.965 --> 0:46:57.125 women sit in sheds that are about forty five degrees, 0:46:57.645 --> 0:47:00.325 you know, because it's done over January. It starts in January, 0:47:00.445 --> 0:47:02.805 the hottest time of the day. And all they do 0:47:03.005 --> 0:47:05.765 is get the little cards, they get the pin and 0:47:05.805 --> 0:47:08.045 they just pin it onto that card. That's all they 0:47:08.045 --> 0:47:10.645 do for eight hours in the whole hottest temperatures possible. 0:47:11.045 --> 0:47:14.365 It's it's great for the Anzac Day legacy, don't get 0:47:14.405 --> 0:47:16.925 me wrong. I get that, but it's such a waste 0:47:16.925 --> 0:47:20.045 when we have broken people in there, you know. You know, 0:47:20.165 --> 0:47:24.045 even so you know, just just gardening jobs such as gardening, 0:47:24.125 --> 0:47:28.325 you know, when there's there is any grass. 0:47:28.005 --> 0:47:29.565 You could a degree. How did you do that? 0:47:30.525 --> 0:47:33.165 My Master of Arts I did in prison. There was 0:47:34.205 --> 0:47:39.725 a Japanese woman come in and she was doing her 0:47:39.765 --> 0:47:42.325 Master of Arts through swimber And University and she said, well, 0:47:42.605 --> 0:47:44.565 I want I want to continue to do it, and 0:47:44.645 --> 0:47:46.885 she sort of fought her own little fight, and then 0:47:47.165 --> 0:47:49.765 they agreed and said, well, okay, well why don't we 0:47:50.525 --> 0:47:52.445 you know, why can't she do it? You know, let's 0:47:52.565 --> 0:47:54.085 let's and we thought she was going to be there 0:47:54.125 --> 0:47:56.285 a lot longer. So they came out and said, well, 0:47:56.325 --> 0:47:57.845 you know, and then they picked four of us that 0:47:57.965 --> 0:48:00.485 was sort of had a reasonable education and said, you know, 0:48:00.525 --> 0:48:02.045 do you want to do it as well? It looked 0:48:02.045 --> 0:48:05.605 like yep. So there were five of us. One sort 0:48:05.605 --> 0:48:10.085 of did a year and got her had served I think, 0:48:10.125 --> 0:48:11.725 you know. The rest of us went through and did 0:48:11.725 --> 0:48:15.205 the full masters, and it was the first no one 0:48:15.245 --> 0:48:15.845 thought we'd do it. 0:48:16.725 --> 0:48:18.565 When did you study? When did you do all of that? 0:48:18.605 --> 0:48:19.005 At night? 0:48:19.725 --> 0:48:19.885 You know? 0:48:19.965 --> 0:48:22.045 That was the only time I could study because during 0:48:22.045 --> 0:48:24.765 the day I was I was literally my job was 0:48:25.085 --> 0:48:28.525 going from place, settling people in and you know, getting 0:48:28.525 --> 0:48:31.645 them clicked in with programs and writing their kids and 0:48:31.645 --> 0:48:34.165 all that sort of stuff. So and I really enjoyed that, 0:48:34.325 --> 0:48:35.645 you know, And so I do it at night or 0:48:35.685 --> 0:48:39.285 on the weekends, because because prison is a is it 0:48:39.285 --> 0:48:42.285 an operational sort of thing where where weekends it sort 0:48:42.325 --> 0:48:45.325 of closes down as well, all the programs, education, everything shut. 0:48:45.405 --> 0:48:47.245 So weekends you have a lot more time to be 0:48:47.245 --> 0:48:49.125 able to do that sort of stuff, you know. Plus 0:48:49.245 --> 0:48:53.205 you know when people say, you know, you know, prisoners 0:48:53.245 --> 0:48:56.285 get these benefits and whatnot, it's absolutely not. You know, 0:48:56.525 --> 0:48:58.885 I've got a hex step from my master's I did 0:48:58.885 --> 0:49:01.325 it exactly the same way as any other person out 0:49:01.325 --> 0:49:03.885 in the community. I didn't take anyone's position there. And 0:49:03.925 --> 0:49:05.645 I'll go as far as to say that we did it, 0:49:06.045 --> 0:49:07.445 you know, we did it Dan. Well, we didn't have 0:49:07.485 --> 0:49:10.285 the internet, you know, we were allowed to use the internet, 0:49:10.365 --> 0:49:13.605 so so our tutor used to bring out reams and 0:49:13.685 --> 0:49:16.445 rooms and rooms and rooms of paper. The problem with 0:49:16.485 --> 0:49:18.365 that was that we couldn't keep it in our cell 0:49:18.445 --> 0:49:20.245 for more than a week because it become a fire. 0:49:20.285 --> 0:49:23.005 Hasn't if that caught fire, the doors of double locked, 0:49:23.045 --> 0:49:26.085 you know. So so we had we had a great 0:49:26.165 --> 0:49:28.645 incentive to to to make sure that our homework was down. 0:49:28.725 --> 0:49:31.965 Each week we'd just miss out. So Swimberin brought the 0:49:32.125 --> 0:49:36.365 entire course to you. Yeah, absolutely, and we all passed 0:49:36.405 --> 0:49:39.405 and passed it very well actually, And then they brought 0:49:39.445 --> 0:49:43.765 the first graduation out to a prison photo of yes 0:49:43.925 --> 0:49:46.325 there was and look and they were humble enough to 0:49:46.325 --> 0:49:50.805 come out and so and so respectful of the fact 0:49:50.805 --> 0:49:52.805 that they come out. They were searched, they went through 0:49:52.845 --> 0:49:55.685 the whole procedure. You know, these are professors and vice 0:49:55.725 --> 0:49:58.965 chancellors and whatnot. They brought all the regalia out for us, 0:49:59.005 --> 0:50:02.125 like at the robes, and yes, a lot of officers 0:50:02.165 --> 0:50:03.365 came in on their days off. 0:50:03.405 --> 0:50:03.565 You know. 0:50:03.645 --> 0:50:06.565 It was fantastic. The women in prison were just were 0:50:06.645 --> 0:50:08.405 just over the moon for us because it was like, 0:50:08.445 --> 0:50:11.685 you know, someone succeeded. You know that that's what they want, 0:50:11.805 --> 0:50:13.805 you know, they want to see that people can actually 0:50:14.725 --> 0:50:17.885 really make a difference. You know, maybe it'll be them. 0:50:18.045 --> 0:50:20.285 So it was, it was, It was fantastic. It was 0:50:20.325 --> 0:50:23.165 really good. The Japanese woman was released not long after 0:50:23.205 --> 0:50:26.725 we all got this going anyway, But and I think 0:50:26.725 --> 0:50:29.525 she can finish hers as well. I'm not quite sure. 0:50:30.605 --> 0:50:33.685 So you spent almost five years in prison, Your girls 0:50:33.685 --> 0:50:37.805 were now ten and twelve, Yeah, something around that age. 0:50:38.325 --> 0:50:41.205 It was time to get out. You must have been elated. 0:50:41.605 --> 0:50:43.525 No, No, I wasn't. 0:50:43.685 --> 0:50:43.845 No. 0:50:44.325 --> 0:50:46.885 In fact, I cried the closer I got to leaving, 0:50:47.605 --> 0:50:49.245 the more frightened I got. And I didn't. I actually 0:50:49.245 --> 0:50:51.805 went to the general manager and said, can you stop this, 0:50:52.685 --> 0:50:54.285 can you can you just keep me here, you know? 0:50:54.405 --> 0:50:56.965 And he was like, what never, No one has ever 0:50:57.005 --> 0:50:59.725 said that to you before. And I burst into tears 0:50:59.765 --> 0:51:05.325 because he'd invested so much in me that I felt 0:51:05.365 --> 0:51:08.485 like I was betraying him by leaving, and I'd miss him. 0:51:08.525 --> 0:51:11.285 He was a genuinely lovely man that had a really 0:51:11.325 --> 0:51:14.285 good heart, was a good leader, and I just didn't 0:51:14.325 --> 0:51:15.925 want to go. You know, how was the place going 0:51:16.005 --> 0:51:17.005 to survive without me? 0:51:17.205 --> 0:51:17.405 You know? 0:51:17.645 --> 0:51:20.325 It was literally that's how I felt, you know. And 0:51:20.365 --> 0:51:22.765 I was in a place where I was respected, I had, 0:51:23.965 --> 0:51:26.445 I earned a lot of my integrity back. I matted, 0:51:26.605 --> 0:51:29.765 I had statue, and then I was going, yeah, and 0:51:30.005 --> 0:51:32.445 I was going out, you know, because just before I 0:51:32.485 --> 0:51:35.085 got out, the girls came out and visited it. Because 0:51:35.125 --> 0:51:37.725 I was sort of like, Mumy's going home, thinking, you 0:51:37.765 --> 0:51:40.485 know the world and yeah, the world had stopped for 0:51:40.565 --> 0:51:42.085 me in there, but it had gone on for them. 0:51:42.605 --> 0:51:44.685 I just thought that they were just sitting doing the 0:51:44.685 --> 0:51:47.085 same thing. Can't wait, can't wait. They came out and went, 0:51:47.805 --> 0:51:50.725 we don't get mad, mum. You know, I'm like and 0:51:50.805 --> 0:51:53.005 they said, now we don't want to live with you 0:51:53.525 --> 0:51:59.805 when you come home and and I actually literally physically 0:51:59.805 --> 0:52:01.245 felt i'd been kicked in the stomach. 0:52:01.325 --> 0:52:02.405 I feel like I just got. 0:52:03.845 --> 0:52:05.405 And I was like, and I but I had to 0:52:05.405 --> 0:52:08.405 hold it together because I had to not just I 0:52:08.445 --> 0:52:11.205 had to really really listen to what they were saying. 0:52:11.285 --> 0:52:13.885 You know, this is huge for them. And then I 0:52:13.925 --> 0:52:17.725 realized they're frightened that I'm coming home, you know, And 0:52:17.765 --> 0:52:19.845 it was it was this so I didn't want to 0:52:19.885 --> 0:52:20.725 go home even more. 0:52:21.245 --> 0:52:24.285 You know when you say frightened, frightened of the unknown, 0:52:24.605 --> 0:52:25.765 of well. 0:52:25.605 --> 0:52:28.245 Of the of the instability. Is m I'm going to 0:52:28.285 --> 0:52:30.725 do this again? Is she going to you know, end 0:52:30.805 --> 0:52:33.445 up in prison and away from our lives again? You know? 0:52:33.925 --> 0:52:36.205 God knows what their father was saying, I don't know, you. 0:52:36.165 --> 0:52:39.125 Know, it was it's split up by this, oh yep. 0:52:40.205 --> 0:52:42.845 And you know, so I didn't know, but I just 0:52:42.885 --> 0:52:45.445 had to understand that, you know, they were frightened because 0:52:45.445 --> 0:52:48.925 they didn't trust me, and and I was just you know, 0:52:49.085 --> 0:52:51.205 going along thinking here we are, you know, and then 0:52:51.285 --> 0:52:54.045 and then boom, and I was like, okay, all right, 0:52:54.285 --> 0:52:56.925 I've got to I've got to actually find a place 0:52:56.965 --> 0:52:59.445 for this to sit. Because when I got out, the 0:52:59.445 --> 0:53:01.965 biggest problem of getting out is where do I fit now? 0:53:02.445 --> 0:53:05.845 Where do I you know? And unfortunately the community still 0:53:05.885 --> 0:53:08.005 believe that a lot of people in the community still 0:53:08.005 --> 0:53:10.485 believe that even though you've gotten out of prison, you 0:53:10.605 --> 0:53:13.205 still have to serve time. You know, you're still going 0:53:13.245 --> 0:53:15.125 to be judge. You're going to be held accountable for 0:53:15.165 --> 0:53:16.925 that crime for your rest of your life. And I'm 0:53:16.965 --> 0:53:20.525 the first one to say absolutely not. You know, you pay. 0:53:21.005 --> 0:53:23.365 We have to have a judicial system in our community 0:53:23.365 --> 0:53:25.205 where you pay for your crime and then you move on, 0:53:25.725 --> 0:53:28.325 you know, And that's how it has to be. Otherwise 0:53:28.805 --> 0:53:30.685 we need to just get people to go before the 0:53:30.765 --> 0:53:32.525 judge get tried and take them at the back of 0:53:32.565 --> 0:53:33.365 the court and shoot them. 0:53:33.765 --> 0:53:36.485 I would have thought straight away, Okay, come on, carry 0:53:36.525 --> 0:53:38.485 be a corrections officer and get back in there. 0:53:38.805 --> 0:53:41.765 I've got a criminal record. I'd love to do that. No. 0:53:42.285 --> 0:53:43.965 And the other thing too, Can you work in the 0:53:44.005 --> 0:53:45.245 prison in any capacity? 0:53:45.325 --> 0:53:46.845 No? No, not with a criminal record? 0:53:47.205 --> 0:53:48.165 But that's crazy. 0:53:48.325 --> 0:53:51.205 Yeah, yeah, I know I would. I would love to, 0:53:51.445 --> 0:53:55.285 there's no doubt about that. But there's also different levels 0:53:55.285 --> 0:53:57.845 of that as well, you know, because because what I 0:53:57.925 --> 0:54:00.605 was doing, I was one of them. When we went 0:54:00.645 --> 0:54:03.285 back and filmed Australian story. We actually went into the 0:54:03.325 --> 0:54:05.485 prison and as soon as I appeared, some of the 0:54:05.485 --> 0:54:07.445 girls in the in the medical center, we're going carry 0:54:07.485 --> 0:54:09.565 Can you pop down at a five and see me? Can you? 0:54:09.925 --> 0:54:12.165 And I couldn't even go near them because I'm now 0:54:12.165 --> 0:54:15.085 a civilian, So I and they're looking thinking why are 0:54:15.125 --> 0:54:16.445 you coming down the end of the hold of time 0:54:17.645 --> 0:54:19.805 because I was now not one of them. So I'm 0:54:19.845 --> 0:54:22.165 sort of trying to go and I'm thinking, he's God, 0:54:22.245 --> 0:54:24.005 she doesn't even know that I'm not even here. I'm 0:54:24.045 --> 0:54:26.485 not even a prisoner anymore. So it was there's that 0:54:26.565 --> 0:54:30.325 disconnection again. But that wouldn't take that wouldn't take long. 0:54:30.605 --> 0:54:33.645 You know, it just depends that corrections might see that, 0:54:33.685 --> 0:54:35.885 you know, am I on their side or on my 0:54:36.005 --> 0:54:39.125 own correction side sort of thing? You know, there's an 0:54:39.205 --> 0:54:40.085 allegiance there. 0:54:40.445 --> 0:54:42.725 So I don't know what happened after you got out. 0:54:43.485 --> 0:54:47.405 I had the world changed much? 0:54:48.085 --> 0:54:52.885 Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. It was. We 0:54:53.045 --> 0:54:56.245 had the barbecue the day before, you know, that's that's 0:54:56.285 --> 0:54:58.365 what you do when you leave prison and everyone gets together. 0:54:58.405 --> 0:54:59.925 And I'd made a point of making sure that the 0:54:59.965 --> 0:55:03.765 officers were invited as well, because and and of course 0:55:03.805 --> 0:55:05.925 people are, well, I'm not going, and I'm like, fair enough, 0:55:05.965 --> 0:55:09.085 but you know, they've been here longer than you have, sweetheart, 0:55:09.125 --> 0:55:12.405 so they're coming, you know. And and then we walked 0:55:12.445 --> 0:55:15.245 to the gate and off you go. So you walk 0:55:15.325 --> 0:55:19.845 to the gate, you know, crying of leaving this community. 0:55:19.885 --> 0:55:21.725 You walk through and get into your civilian clothes and 0:55:21.725 --> 0:55:24.045 outside into your family's arms and you and you're smiling. 0:55:24.085 --> 0:55:24.205 You know. 0:55:24.325 --> 0:55:26.965 It's it's a very difficult thing. And has that had 0:55:26.965 --> 0:55:29.765 a great year most a couple of my sisters and 0:55:29.885 --> 0:55:33.485 nephews and odds and odds, you know, not your girls. 0:55:34.525 --> 0:55:36.725 We'd had issues with that. Marke's husband and I and 0:55:36.885 --> 0:55:38.925 and I'd waited, you know, they were the pot of 0:55:39.045 --> 0:55:40.565 gold at the end of the rainbow, and here I 0:55:40.605 --> 0:55:42.165 was at the end of the rainbow and they weren't there. 0:55:43.005 --> 0:55:45.645 He felt that it would be best that I saw 0:55:45.645 --> 0:55:48.045 them a couple of days after I got out, and 0:55:48.365 --> 0:55:51.845 you know, again I had no input into that, so 0:55:51.845 --> 0:55:54.085 so fitting in with them was a was a big thing. 0:55:54.125 --> 0:55:57.725 I remember going uh and seeing them day three. The 0:55:57.805 --> 0:55:59.085 other thing, too, is that when I met all of 0:55:59.125 --> 0:56:02.565 my family too, there were a lot of people that that, 0:56:04.285 --> 0:56:06.205 you know, I hadn't seen for a little while. I 0:56:06.325 --> 0:56:09.005 wasn't so much to that, but they all had people 0:56:09.045 --> 0:56:11.205 were talking talking about these people and these kids and 0:56:11.245 --> 0:56:13.525 these and these there were new members of the family, 0:56:13.565 --> 0:56:15.965 Like I was the I was the odd one out 0:56:15.965 --> 0:56:17.365 of my own family. I didn't even know who they 0:56:17.365 --> 0:56:20.365 were talking about. She married, she married, you know, your nephew, 0:56:20.685 --> 0:56:24.445 you know, and yeah, and that's then they had a baby. Yeah, 0:56:24.445 --> 0:56:27.565 and you know, so the dynamics of the family had 0:56:27.645 --> 0:56:29.885 changed as well. You know. So then when I saw 0:56:29.885 --> 0:56:33.325 the girls, I remember thinking, we went to Chanside Park 0:56:33.605 --> 0:56:35.965 shopping center, and the girls were like, they were excited, 0:56:35.965 --> 0:56:37.365 but they were nervous and they were you know, and 0:56:37.405 --> 0:56:40.125 I didn't want to I didn't know how to act. Actually, 0:56:40.325 --> 0:56:42.965 I'd lost on my parenting skills. I wasn't an authority 0:56:42.965 --> 0:56:45.485 in their life by any streage. So when we when 0:56:45.525 --> 0:56:49.765 we got there, you know, they started they started arguing, 0:56:49.925 --> 0:56:52.085 and I did not know, for the life of me, 0:56:52.285 --> 0:56:53.885 how to handle this. I didn't know what to do. 0:56:53.925 --> 0:56:56.085 They were annoying the hell out of me because I 0:56:56.165 --> 0:56:58.365 wasn't used to little kids arguing around me. I was 0:56:58.445 --> 0:57:01.085 used to this tough, you know environment where you turn 0:57:01.085 --> 0:57:04.885 around and go shut up, go away, you know. So 0:57:04.885 --> 0:57:06.605 so it was just so it was. And when they 0:57:06.685 --> 0:57:08.085 used to come and see me on a visit, it 0:57:08.085 --> 0:57:10.205 was always best behavior because all loved each other. And 0:57:10.805 --> 0:57:12.525 this was so different, and I didn't know what to do. 0:57:13.125 --> 0:57:15.765 I couldn't be I've been out four hours or something 0:57:16.005 --> 0:57:18.245 with the girls anyway, you know, start yelling at them 0:57:18.365 --> 0:57:21.565 or it was just horrible. I didn't know what to do. 0:57:21.645 --> 0:57:25.365 And then then, you know, I remember there were people 0:57:26.165 --> 0:57:29.285 sitting around this table and they were talking about things like, 0:57:29.725 --> 0:57:31.405 you know, don't forget we're going to have that barbecue 0:57:31.405 --> 0:57:33.485 on Wednesday, don't stop at Bunnings and pick up the 0:57:33.485 --> 0:57:36.485 stuff for the law mar and and I remember sitting 0:57:36.485 --> 0:57:40.245 there thinking, God, I don't even I don't. That's that's 0:57:40.245 --> 0:57:42.445 someone living a life. I don't have that anymore. I 0:57:42.485 --> 0:57:46.125 don't I don't have friends, and I don't know anyone 0:57:46.165 --> 0:57:47.765 that will go to a barbecue. I've got no need 0:57:47.805 --> 0:57:49.605 to go to Bunnings because I've got nothing, you know. 0:57:49.925 --> 0:57:51.845 And I remembered how and I remember thinking I was 0:57:51.925 --> 0:57:55.165 like a ghost walking around this the outside of this place, 0:57:55.205 --> 0:57:57.125 because I didn't fit in anywhere. 0:57:57.125 --> 0:58:00.485 I knew, had every chance, Like you absolutely educated, you 0:58:00.525 --> 0:58:02.045 weren't on drugs, you weren't. 0:58:02.445 --> 0:58:04.125 I walked out to the job in the university. 0:58:04.205 --> 0:58:07.565 Were educated, you're white, you were all of those things. 0:58:08.165 --> 0:58:10.805 And I walked out to job in university, you know, 0:58:11.045 --> 0:58:13.965 which is yeah, you know, I had I had a job. 0:58:14.765 --> 0:58:15.925 I was off at a job while I was in 0:58:15.925 --> 0:58:18.765 prison from swim Burn after I did my masters. So 0:58:18.765 --> 0:58:21.445 so I had everything, but I just couldn't find where 0:58:21.485 --> 0:58:23.725 I fit. Where do I fit? And if you don't fit, 0:58:23.765 --> 0:58:29.325 it's just fundamentally the the who you are, where do 0:58:29.325 --> 0:58:33.365 you belong? You know. It was just so so goddamn 0:58:33.405 --> 0:58:36.565 difficult trying to try trying to work that out. And then, 0:58:36.645 --> 0:58:39.125 you know, the f POS machines, I've got a lot 0:58:39.125 --> 0:58:42.285 of pride, the f POS machines were different. So I 0:58:42.365 --> 0:58:45.805 was looking over this woman's shoulder trying to see how 0:58:45.845 --> 0:58:48.205 she was doing it, and she actually turned around and 0:58:48.605 --> 0:58:50.005 sort of had to go with me because she thought 0:58:50.045 --> 0:58:53.045 I was trying. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, terrific. 0:58:53.085 --> 0:58:54.965 I didn't even think of that. You know, I'm going 0:58:55.045 --> 0:58:57.325 to be back into prison within three days, you know. 0:58:58.525 --> 0:59:00.525 And I was like no, I didn't want to say 0:59:00.605 --> 0:59:04.885 I don't know how to use it, because totally it 0:59:04.925 --> 0:59:07.325 was just so it was it was just it was 0:59:07.405 --> 0:59:09.605 so good of Harden. The one time I did was 0:59:09.605 --> 0:59:13.805 able to assert myself or who I'd become was when 0:59:13.805 --> 0:59:16.205 we were sitting down having lunch with the kids and 0:59:16.245 --> 0:59:18.245 we're just sitting having great time, and this woman walked 0:59:18.325 --> 0:59:21.925 up and said, yeah, no, there are you know, here 0:59:21.925 --> 0:59:23.925 are you going, and then made a point of just 0:59:23.965 --> 0:59:26.285 ignoring me, even though she knew who I was. Because 0:59:26.325 --> 0:59:28.085 everyone knew that I was obviously out of prison. It 0:59:28.125 --> 0:59:29.845 was a big deal and everyone wanted a part of 0:59:29.845 --> 0:59:32.285 the show. And she went to walk off, so I 0:59:32.725 --> 0:59:36.165 sort of said the just there from when I went 0:59:36.205 --> 0:59:37.965 over to it, and I said to her, I don't 0:59:38.005 --> 0:59:40.445 know who you are, I said, and more of the point, 0:59:40.445 --> 0:59:43.405 I don't care, I said, but they are my daughters 0:59:43.445 --> 0:59:45.205 and I am their mother, and you won't change it. 0:59:45.245 --> 0:59:47.085 So next time I do see you, if you want 0:59:47.125 --> 0:59:49.085 to speak to my children, you will speak to me first, 0:59:49.485 --> 0:59:52.005 or don't approach us at all. And that's one thing 0:59:52.885 --> 0:59:54.405 that I have an issue with is that if you 0:59:54.645 --> 0:59:56.125 have been to prison and you've done your time and 0:59:56.205 --> 0:59:58.085 you've done, you know, and I've spoken it over three 0:59:58.205 --> 1:00:01.645 hundred maybe four hundred events in the community raising awareness. 1:00:01.685 --> 1:00:05.005 I've never changed, you know, it's my being able to 1:00:05.005 --> 1:00:07.645 give back to the community and whatnot. I didn't appeal 1:00:07.725 --> 1:00:10.445 my sentence. I did it all in maximum security, I did, 1:00:10.645 --> 1:00:13.445 you know, I assisted the community there, so I think 1:00:13.445 --> 1:00:15.725 that I've done what I needed to do. So to 1:00:15.765 --> 1:00:19.845 have then people feel that they can actually take ownership 1:00:19.845 --> 1:00:25.725 over my daughters is a huge trigger for me. So 1:00:26.085 --> 1:00:28.365 you know, I needed to set that straight, you know, 1:00:28.685 --> 1:00:30.925 because while I'm wandering through trying to work out where 1:00:30.965 --> 1:00:32.525 I fit in life, the one thing I do know 1:00:32.645 --> 1:00:34.605 is that they are my daughters and someone I've never 1:00:34.645 --> 1:00:38.605 met before. You know, I don't how long did. 1:00:38.525 --> 1:00:41.445 It take to re establish your relationship with the girls? 1:00:41.685 --> 1:00:42.885 Five years? 1:00:43.525 --> 1:00:46.325 Wow? Yeah, as long as you were aware it took 1:00:46.365 --> 1:00:47.325 that long again. 1:00:47.365 --> 1:00:51.125 And you know, and sometimes, you know, sometimes just to 1:00:51.165 --> 1:00:54.365 get settled back into the community is the same amount 1:00:54.405 --> 1:00:56.125 of time that you've been in prison. It takes that. 1:00:56.485 --> 1:00:59.685 It's such a big thing to you know, particular when 1:00:59.685 --> 1:01:01.245 you know that most people don't want you to be 1:01:01.325 --> 1:01:03.845 part of the community, you know, just buying large not 1:01:03.885 --> 1:01:06.725 maybe individually, but buy in large, you know. So, and 1:01:06.765 --> 1:01:09.205 that's what I always say, is the more the community, 1:01:09.485 --> 1:01:13.045 every woman gets out of prison, you know. And and 1:01:13.085 --> 1:01:15.525 again they're broken women, you know. My idea is that 1:01:15.565 --> 1:01:19.205 they come into prison, we work on them because they're 1:01:19.245 --> 1:01:21.685 doing their sentence, they're doing what has been told by 1:01:21.725 --> 1:01:25.205 the judge, by the community, by the judicial system. They're 1:01:25.205 --> 1:01:27.805 doing exactly that. So while they're in there, let's make 1:01:27.805 --> 1:01:30.005 it a win win situation and start working on these 1:01:30.005 --> 1:01:33.245 women so that when they leave, they come out better 1:01:33.285 --> 1:01:35.445 people than when they went in, and maybe a little 1:01:35.445 --> 1:01:36.965 bit more healed because they're going to come and live 1:01:37.005 --> 1:01:40.245 next door to you or you know, somebody else or whatnot, 1:01:40.245 --> 1:01:43.325 and then they can become productive members of the community. 1:01:43.685 --> 1:01:45.965 It's a win win situation as far as I'm concerned. 1:01:46.005 --> 1:01:48.445 And you invest in these people because they're not most 1:01:48.485 --> 1:01:52.125 of them are not master criminals, you know, because when 1:01:52.125 --> 1:01:56.165 they come out, if the community says, actually, we don't 1:01:56.205 --> 1:01:58.725 want you, even though you've done your time, why on 1:01:58.805 --> 1:02:02.485 earth would they bother abiding by the community's laws. If 1:02:02.485 --> 1:02:05.445 they're not part of that community. Why feel an allegiance 1:02:05.485 --> 1:02:07.765 to do the right thing? And that, you know, it's 1:02:07.885 --> 1:02:11.965 just such a simple, a simple process about particularly about 1:02:12.005 --> 1:02:15.245 women in prison, because you know, most of them, you know, 1:02:15.925 --> 1:02:19.525 just need you know, there's no point putting people in 1:02:19.565 --> 1:02:22.205 prison and then just letting them sit there and then 1:02:22.365 --> 1:02:25.045 expect a different outcome when they come out. That's just ludicrous. 1:02:25.085 --> 1:02:29.485 That is just stupid. And unfortunately politics is that way 1:02:29.525 --> 1:02:32.125 a lot. You know, no one wants to invest, will 1:02:32.165 --> 1:02:34.365 just build more prisons. Well, that's just ridiculous. 1:02:34.685 --> 1:02:36.685 Your girls are in their twenties now. 1:02:36.565 --> 1:02:41.405 Sarah's twenty one tomorrow and Channel's twenty two. Fabulous, absolutely fabulous. 1:02:41.445 --> 1:02:44.245 I'm very very proud of the girls and they you know, 1:02:44.365 --> 1:02:46.405 and they're very proud of me. You know, they've told 1:02:46.445 --> 1:02:50.045 me so. And that's the one thing that I that's 1:02:50.085 --> 1:02:51.645 the one thing that I wanted. You know what, other 1:02:51.685 --> 1:02:53.965 people and and other people are going to have their opinions, 1:02:54.005 --> 1:02:56.885 and I absolutely respect that that's not an issue. But 1:02:56.925 --> 1:02:58.845 that's the girls that I care about, you know, so, 1:03:00.085 --> 1:03:02.885 you know, so it's been a long hard you know, 1:03:02.965 --> 1:03:07.365 I've had to be really really patient with with finding 1:03:07.405 --> 1:03:11.245 a place with them again enforcing you know this, you know, 1:03:11.365 --> 1:03:14.845 mummy's time. Let's just disrupt their whole entire life so 1:03:15.405 --> 1:03:18.045 I couldn't be prouder of the girls. You know, they're 1:03:18.125 --> 1:03:21.165 just they're wonderful, good hearted, law abiding citizens. 1:03:22.285 --> 1:03:24.845 Carry They're so lucky to have you, as we're all 1:03:24.885 --> 1:03:28.565 the women in prison who benefited from your attention when 1:03:28.565 --> 1:03:32.405 you were there. What an extraordinary story, and I feel 1:03:32.405 --> 1:03:33.445 like I've learned so much. 1:03:33.805 --> 1:03:36.725 Thank you. Well that's much that's important, you know, and 1:03:36.765 --> 1:03:39.165 I think people can change the way they think about 1:03:39.165 --> 1:03:41.685 things if they know how it actually works. 1:03:42.405 --> 1:03:44.965 Thank you for listening to this episode of No Filter. 1:03:45.485 --> 1:03:49.045 Next week for a complete change of pace, I am 1:03:49.085 --> 1:03:53.005 going to speak to a woman who life hacks her period. 1:03:53.645 --> 1:03:57.045 Oh my god, this will actually change your life. If 1:03:57.085 --> 1:04:00.085 you enjoyed this story and you are looking for what 1:04:00.205 --> 1:04:02.645 to listen to you next, I have a suggestion for you. 1:04:03.205 --> 1:04:06.565 It's actually an episode of our family life podcast called 1:04:06.645 --> 1:04:09.685 This Glorious Mess, and this episode is actually called When 1:04:09.805 --> 1:04:15.445 Daddy Goes to Prison, and it's the most fascinating episode 1:04:15.445 --> 1:04:18.205 of the show. It's hosted by Holly Wainwright and Andrew Daddo, 1:04:18.285 --> 1:04:20.485 who hosts the show every week, and they speak to 1:04:20.525 --> 1:04:23.405 a guy called Scott Williams about the time that he 1:04:23.485 --> 1:04:26.045 had to tell his young son that he was going 1:04:26.085 --> 1:04:29.885 to prison, and I didn't get to talk to Carry 1:04:30.045 --> 1:04:34.805 enough about her relationship with her daughters and what that 1:04:34.965 --> 1:04:38.645 was like having that conversation so much. But oh, the 1:04:38.645 --> 1:04:41.125 interview with Scott Williams is really interesting. You can find 1:04:41.165 --> 1:04:44.085 it in the Muma Mea podcast app or wherever you 1:04:44.125 --> 1:04:46.365 listen to this show. We will also put a link 1:04:46.525 --> 1:04:50.005 in our show notes to this and to the extract 1:04:50.725 --> 1:04:53.845 from Kerry Tucker's book. This show has been produced by 1:04:53.845 --> 1:04:56.885 Eliza Ratliffe. I am Maya Friedman and I will see 1:04:56.925 --> 1:05:00.245 you on Mama Mia dot com dot au. If you're 1:05:00.245 --> 1:05:02.925 looking for something else to listen to, like and follow 1:05:03.125 --> 1:05:05.645 all of our Muma Mea podcasts, which are currently bringing 1:05:05.685 --> 1:05:08.805 you hot pod Summer one hundred hours of summer listens. 1:05:09.325 --> 1:05:13.765 I see conversations to incredible stories, fashion, beauty, where the 1:05:13.805 --> 1:05:15.445 Friends in your Ear is over Summer