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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on. I'm MEA Friedman and the team at

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Speaker 1: Mama and MEA are bringing you over one hundred hours

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Speaker 1: of the very best of the podcasts that we've made

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Speaker 1: from across our podcast network. Do you know that we

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Speaker 1: have something like fifty six different podcasts here at Mamma Mia.

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Speaker 1: And if you follow this one, we have selected some

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Speaker 1: others that you might like to listen to as well,

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Speaker 1: and we've also brought back some of our most popular

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Speaker 1: and most riveting stories from No Filter. Kerry Tucker's story

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Speaker 1: is one of those stories that really sticks with you.

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Speaker 1: And maybe it's because she experienced something that most of

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Speaker 1: us would consider our worst nightmare. She was in prison

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Speaker 1: for four and a half years. But the funny part

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Speaker 1: is she loved it. She actually loved being in prison.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Kerrie in twenty eighteen, and in the years

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Speaker 1: since and then she's continued to be an advocate for women,

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Speaker 1: both women who were in prison and those women after

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Speaker 1: their release. And I know that her story is going

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Speaker 1: to stay with you like it did with me. I

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Speaker 1: was just I had so many questions you'll be shocked

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Speaker 1: to hear, and Kerrie answered all of them.

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Speaker 2: Even though you've gotten out of prison, you still have

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Speaker 2: to serve time. You know that you're still going to

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Speaker 2: be judge. You're going to be held accountable for that

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Speaker 2: crime for your rest of your life. And I'm the

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Speaker 2: first one to say absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: From the mom of mea podcast network, I'm Meya Friedman

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Speaker 1: and this is no filter, real stories that will make

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Speaker 1: you lean in. How do you prepare to go to

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Speaker 1: prison and what's life like when you get there? How

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Speaker 1: is a mother do you tell your two little girls

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Speaker 1: that they aren't going to see you for anywhere up

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Speaker 1: to seven years. Carrie Tucker was jailed in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four for one of the biggest white collar crimes

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Speaker 1: committed by a female in Victoria. She'd been stealing money

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Speaker 1: from her employers, and she owned up to it, was

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Speaker 1: found guilty, and she spent four and a half years

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Speaker 1: behind bars in a maximum security prison. When Carrie arrived

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Speaker 1: in jail, she was utterly terrified and totally clueless about

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Speaker 1: what was going to happen to her next. From sex

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Speaker 1: to violence, friendships and babies. And drug addiction and making

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Speaker 1: cups of tea for murderers. Life is very big and

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Speaker 1: very complicated on the inside, and it's also very different

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Speaker 1: to the way you might imagine it to be. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the most surprising part of this story is that at

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Speaker 1: the end of her sentence, Kerry Tucker actually asked if

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Speaker 1: she could stay in prison. This story is so interesting

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna love it. Carrie, tell me about the

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Speaker 1: day you got arrested.

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Speaker 2: It's funny when I get asked that question, because there's

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Speaker 2: two different memories. I knew that I was about to

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Speaker 2: be arrested, you know, I just didn't know when That

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Speaker 2: waiting was just terrific. I didn't know that they'd had

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Speaker 2: me under surveillance for a week. One must remember that

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Speaker 2: this was a really big crime in a very small town.

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Speaker 2: Anywhere else, they wouldn't have put me under surveillance because

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Speaker 2: you know, I wasn't a violent offender and I was

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Speaker 2: sitting at home with my daughters. I went to the gym,

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Speaker 2: and they arrested me at the gym, so that was

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Speaker 2: really good. So that day, you know, being arrested, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a couple of things that I learned from that,

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Speaker 2: because I was very compliant, I knew that I'd done

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Speaker 2: the wrong thing. I wanted to own up to it.

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Speaker 2: I felt, if you're going to be big enough to

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Speaker 2: do this sort of stuff, then own up to it

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Speaker 2: and just go through the process and whatnot. But there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of things that people need to realize

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Speaker 2: that in that as soon as I was taken back

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Speaker 2: to the station, they actually said to me, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you don't confess, we're going to get too uniformed

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Speaker 2: officers to go up to the children's school and preschool

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Speaker 2: and put them in foster care. Now, there were two

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Speaker 2: things about that was that I didn't know they couldn't

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Speaker 2: do that, so it was a bluff. And I sang

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Speaker 2: like a bird anyway, so I had full intentions of it.

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Speaker 2: So it was sort of a mute point. But what

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Speaker 2: it did made me realize is that, you know, a

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Speaker 2: lot of times when I used to sit back and think, well,

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Speaker 2: police don't use these sort of tactics, you know, I

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Speaker 2: actually saw firsthand. So a lot of women that say

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Speaker 2: they were treated certain ways, I can say, you know,

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Speaker 2: but that's not everyone in the police force.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, where did they take you from the gym.

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Speaker 2: Back to the police station and then back out to

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Speaker 2: my house. When we got out to the house, there

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Speaker 2: was this great, big truck and about eight or nine

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Speaker 2: police cars. It looked like a crime scene. As they

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Speaker 2: were searching your house, they were removing every no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: they just removed everything. They gutted it. They took everything

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Speaker 2: that I had as restitution. I hadn't ever been charged yet,

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Speaker 2: let alone tried or found guilty or whatnot. I hadn't

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Speaker 2: even been interviewed. So I literally was back out there.

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Speaker 2: They were gutting the house.

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Speaker 1: So they took everything because they thought they might have

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Speaker 1: been bought with the proceeds. Yes, crimes, because you'd embezzled

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Speaker 1: money from your employe.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So at the time of your arrest, you had two

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Speaker 1: little girls. How old were they?

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Speaker 2: They were five and seven?

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Speaker 1: And you talked about the time between knowing you'd been

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Speaker 1: caught and then being arrested.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: I've always wondered what that time is like in terms

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Speaker 1: of preparing. Essentially, you knew you were going to jail.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but but knowing that and actually having it happen

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Speaker 2: are two different things. You know, that time, I was

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Speaker 2: just waiting. I can remember. It was like I was

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Speaker 2: watching myself in the land room. You know, I can

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Speaker 2: still see it now if I look into my memory,

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Speaker 2: someone was watching me, just sitting and waiting and going

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Speaker 2: through the motions. You know. I'd tuck the kids away

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Speaker 2: with their dad sort of things so that, you know,

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Speaker 2: if anything happened, they were with their dad. So I

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Speaker 2: didn't want that used against me or to have to

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Speaker 2: worry about that. The one thing that I couldn't do,

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Speaker 2: And to this day it's still sort of, you know,

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Speaker 2: make makes me sort of a little uneasy. As I

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Speaker 2: couldn't tell the girls that I was leaving them. It

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Speaker 2: didn't matter how I tried to gloss it up, It

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Speaker 2: didn't matter how I tried to approach it. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: do it. As and as fearless as I am, not, No,

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Speaker 2: I absolutely couldn't. I left that up to you know,

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Speaker 2: their father makes.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't because it was too confronting for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then yep, I can't even talk about it.

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Speaker 2: It was just so difficult. So it was it was

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Speaker 2: that I unfortunately left up to my ex husband, so

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Speaker 2: it was easier, and I think it worked out that

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Speaker 2: way better anyway, because they were eased into the thought

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Speaker 2: process that I'd gone to More Durid to see the

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Speaker 2: family and then something had happened, and something had happened,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, it sort of dragged out for

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Speaker 2: a little while before while mummy was gone, and then

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Speaker 2: we sort of moved into that that having to tell

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Speaker 2: them that I'm actually in prison.

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Speaker 1: You were actually at the gym to try to build

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Speaker 1: up your strength to prepare for prison.

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Speaker 2: And again, you know, this is what I go to

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Speaker 2: a lot of pains to talk about. You know about prison?

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Speaker 1: Is it?

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Speaker 2: In my mind? It was everything from the movie.

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Speaker 1: So I, yes, did you watch Prisoner?

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Speaker 2: No amazing?

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Speaker 1: How old are you at this stage?

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Speaker 2: Forty? Real life begins at forty, So in one way,

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Speaker 2: I was just about to turn forty. I had my

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Speaker 2: forties in prison.

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Speaker 1: I've jumped ahead. I want to ask you about your

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Speaker 1: first day arriving at prison. Were you so scared? No?

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Speaker 2: But one of the reasons is with the women. It

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Speaker 2: backs up and you go into police holding cells around Melbourne,

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Speaker 2: and as one woman is released from prison, someone from

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Speaker 2: the police holding cells in the order that they arrived

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Speaker 2: goes out to the prison. So I was there for

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Speaker 2: NELLI so the women's prisons are full always.

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Speaker 1: In fact, they've just probably a whole up.

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Speaker 2: They've just built another another block of cells out there

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: So you spent how long in the holding cells?

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Speaker 2: Three weeks? You know, at least that was horrific. Because

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Speaker 2: the police holding cells are run by the police. Now

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Speaker 2: there's a big difference between police and corrections officers because

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Speaker 2: the police are the police and the corrections officers are

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Speaker 2: civilians that have done a six week training course. The

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Speaker 2: police's job is thankless and I absolutely understand that and

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Speaker 2: respect it. And in the Maraban holding cells, I was

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Speaker 2: treated very very well, except for a female officer there.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it's a really hard place. It's all concrete.

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Speaker 2: You can't wear, you know, socks, you can't wear shoes.

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Speaker 2: They used to just hose it out with a fire

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Speaker 2: hose at six o'clock in the morning. This was winter

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Speaker 2: and it was you know that the blankets all had

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Speaker 2: women had lice, everyone was menstruating.

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Speaker 1: It.

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Speaker 2: It was just dreadful and if you needed pads or

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Speaker 2: tampons whatever, you had to ask an officer and they

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Speaker 2: bring you one. You know, they didn't just put it

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Speaker 2: in the cell for you know, it was just.

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Speaker 1: Horrible, so quite dehumanizing.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep. And I was in there with some old

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Speaker 2: school heavies. You know, what does that mean? They'd been

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Speaker 2: in prison hard times, and they knew all the people

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Speaker 2: that needed to be known. You know. They were movies

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Speaker 2: and shakers, you know, they you know, and sort of

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Speaker 2: mucked with a lot of these you know.

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Speaker 1: Did they look as scary as you're making them sound.

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Speaker 2: Ah, No, because it's hard because there were some of

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Speaker 2: them had you know, lots of tacts and whatever else.

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Speaker 2: So that was a bit confronting to me, which I

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Speaker 2: always assigned it as being tough. But they're also going

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Speaker 2: through withdrawal, so I saw their vulnerabilities as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, because a lot of them were taking drugs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they were all heroin addicts, you know, so

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Speaker 2: so then they were going through withdraw so there was

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Speaker 2: about as sick as you can be, you know. And

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Speaker 2: so I saw both sides of that. And I've and

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Speaker 2: I've always wondered, always wondered when I was in there

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Speaker 2: that they could be so so weak and so sick

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Speaker 2: yet still worry about how I was going, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I was a newbie. I was you know, and

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Speaker 2: that showed me a lot about the women and how

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Speaker 2: women tend to look after each other.

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Speaker 1: Were you the only white collar criminal in those holding sound? Yes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And they knew straight away, you know, the nails

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Speaker 2: gave it away well, you know, and I just didn't

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Speaker 2: have the appearance of being a street criminal, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: And are you still in your active car?

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Speaker 2: I was, actually yes, I was. They thought I'd been

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Speaker 2: done for shoplifting, you know. I was one of these

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Speaker 2: you know, privileged women that you know, still needed something

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Speaker 2: in their life. And I was like, no, No.

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Speaker 1: The women that you were in the holding cell with,

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Speaker 1: what kinds of things were they there for?

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Speaker 2: Or on drugs? Drug charges? One was on a violent

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Speaker 2: you know, a road rage thing, I think, but they

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Speaker 2: were all related to being addicted to drugs, you know.

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Speaker 2: So whether it be robbery, there was a fight on

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Speaker 2: a platform or something over drugs and whatever, generally drugs.

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Speaker 2: And you'll find that with most women, in the greater

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Speaker 2: majority of women in prison, and it's such a sad

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Speaker 2: thing because they don't want to be drug addicts, you know.

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Speaker 2: But I would I've put this question a lot out

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Speaker 2: there in the sense that if you've lived the lives

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Speaker 2: that they have lived and then they end up being

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Speaker 2: drug addicts. They're victims before they become perpetrators. And that's

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Speaker 2: not an excuse, it's a fact. It's a research fact.

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Speaker 2: And most you know, as opposed to men men men men,

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Speaker 2: you know, they don't know their aggressives. You know, they'll

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Speaker 2: get into a drug feud or you know, a turf

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Speaker 2: war or something like that. You know, and they don't

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Speaker 2: generally have an intimate relationship, whereas women, you know, they

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Speaker 2: more often than not have an or had a relationship

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Speaker 2: with their aggressors. They're violent, you know, perpetrator, and that

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Speaker 2: person's probably told them I love you at least once

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Speaker 2: in their life. And that could be the rapist father,

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Speaker 2: it could be the domestic violence husband or partner. It

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Speaker 2: could be you know, the brother, the priest, this, that

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Speaker 2: and the other, you know, and a lot of the

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Speaker 2: girls are then you know, they're victims of incest or

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Speaker 2: rape or sexual abuse. Then they're turfed out on the

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Speaker 2: street as soon as they start talking about it. They

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Speaker 2: get onto drugs, then they have to commit crime. And

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Speaker 2: they're more of a nuisance to society than they are

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Speaker 2: a threat to society. And while I was in prison.

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Speaker 2: There were no specialist programs for individual rape incest. There

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Speaker 2: wasn't even domestic violence programs when I was there.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine how many women in prison, just about

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Speaker 1: everyone sexual abuse or domestic violence.

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Speaker 2: A very small minority aren't and they're the true criminals

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Speaker 2: in my mind.

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Speaker 1: When you arrived in prison, what was your experience, I mean,

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Speaker 1: after the holding cells, it must have. Was it like

256
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Speaker 1: arriving at a balley resort.

257
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Speaker 2: Totally totally, except except I it was a prison had

258
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Speaker 2: been locked down, and it was and then by the

259
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Speaker 2: time we got you know, it takes a long time

260
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Speaker 2: to be processed into a prison, so it was dark

261
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Speaker 2: and we were escorted over to this unit. Now at

262
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Speaker 2: the time, I don't know what unit was what, And

263
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Speaker 2: I was put into a disabled celt because again the

264
00:13:05,805 --> 00:13:08,205
Speaker 2: prison was full. It had a dinner, and it had

265
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Speaker 2: a pillow, and it had shower. We didn't have to

266
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Speaker 2: keep pushing the button and it has shampoo. And I

267
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Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, this is this is what

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Speaker 2: heaven is going to be like, you know. And then

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Speaker 2: next morning, the next morning, the most terrifying thing you

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Speaker 2: can do is when they come around and they open

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Speaker 2: the doors to let you out. They let everyone in

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Speaker 2: the prison out. I had no idea what was on

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Speaker 2: the other side of that door. I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: was prison as much as I come from the police

275
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Speaker 2: holding cells, and I was sort of rough and ready,

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Speaker 2: you know. Now, I didn't know what the big girls'

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Speaker 2: school was like. And as I opened that door, I

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Speaker 2: was I can remember standing at the door, going, just

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Speaker 2: do it, you know this, just do it. And so

280
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Speaker 2: I pushed it open a little bit and this giant

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Speaker 2: woman just just pulled the doors off their hinges and said,

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Speaker 2: you know good, I my name is Robin. Let's go

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Speaker 2: for a walk. And I was like, and she was

284
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Speaker 2: twice or so, and I'm like, yeah, I was, you know,

285
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Speaker 2: I agreed with it. I was a very agreeable person

286
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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, and I said, off we go.

287
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Speaker 2: And we walked outside and she said, this is Bomber

288
00:14:06,365 --> 00:14:09,285
Speaker 2: and I looked at Bomber and I realized it was

289
00:14:09,525 --> 00:14:13,165
Speaker 2: because she followed Essendon and then there was Sparky, and

290
00:14:13,245 --> 00:14:16,525
Speaker 2: Sparky wasn't an electrician. So she turned around. She said,

291
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Speaker 2: you know, Bombers threatened, you know, she blows up airports

292
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Speaker 2: and things like that, and judges and things and sparky lights,

293
00:14:22,605 --> 00:14:24,565
Speaker 2: big fires and things like that, and I was like,

294
00:14:25,285 --> 00:14:26,685
Speaker 2: and I was onder the fact that I went up

295
00:14:26,685 --> 00:14:29,085
Speaker 2: to one of the offices and I said, I'm not sure.

296
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Speaker 2: Call me old fashion, but I'm starting to suspect that

297
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Speaker 2: I'm in the unit for the criminally insane. And she

298
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Speaker 2: said she just sawt of looked at me, and she said,

299
00:14:37,765 --> 00:14:39,125
Speaker 2: what makes you think that? And I looked over and

300
00:14:39,205 --> 00:14:41,805
Speaker 2: I said, I said, that woman over there is drawing

301
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Speaker 2: a face on her pillow and she's talking to her.

302
00:14:44,365 --> 00:14:47,165
Speaker 2: And I said, I don't know, I'm just suspicious. Call me,

303
00:14:47,285 --> 00:14:50,005
Speaker 2: call me old fashion, and she said, yeah, no you are.

304
00:14:50,325 --> 00:14:52,925
Speaker 2: She said, it's just that, you know, am I insane?

305
00:14:53,605 --> 00:14:56,245
Speaker 2: Because apparently only the insane people don't know they're insane?

306
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Speaker 2: So I thought, am I one of them?

307
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Speaker 1: My goodness?

308
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Speaker 2: And they said they said no, look, the other place

309
00:15:01,725 --> 00:15:03,085
Speaker 2: is full. You're just going to be here for a

310
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Speaker 2: couple of days. And so that was my introduction to prison.

311
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Speaker 2: And again, you know, after that, working that out and

312
00:15:13,085 --> 00:15:14,925
Speaker 2: sort of getting to know people and putting your face

313
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Speaker 2: out there as the new person, you know, then the

314
00:15:18,085 --> 00:15:20,925
Speaker 2: wonder because it's such a place that doesn't change, so

315
00:15:20,965 --> 00:15:23,485
Speaker 2: as soon as you see new faces. That's the only

316
00:15:23,525 --> 00:15:26,605
Speaker 2: thing in your world that changes. So you've got to

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Speaker 2: just get in amongst it.

318
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Speaker 1: You're in a high maximum security women's prison. Why maximum security, because.

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Speaker 2: Where there's such a small population of women in prison

320
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Speaker 2: in Victoria anyway, there's a maximum security prison. You only

321
00:15:40,405 --> 00:15:43,845
Speaker 2: need the prison, you only need one prisoner in there

322
00:15:43,845 --> 00:15:46,005
Speaker 2: to be maximum security, for the whole place to be

323
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Speaker 2: maximum security. The only other place we have is Taran

324
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Speaker 2: Gauer and it's minimum. It's not medium, it's minimum, and

325
00:15:52,045 --> 00:15:54,445
Speaker 2: it's right out towards Bendigos.

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Speaker 1: But I would have thought you would have been minimum security.

327
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Speaker 2: I mean it was you have to be sentenced first

328
00:16:00,685 --> 00:16:03,525
Speaker 2: a white collar crime, but you have to be sentenced first.

329
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Speaker 2: So I was on remand for eighteen months. So while

330
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Speaker 2: you're on remand, your maximum security and it's only you.

331
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Speaker 1: Remind me the part between being charged and being sentenced.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're in prison awaiting your trial.

333
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Speaker 1: Okay, So no bail for you, no.

334
00:16:18,285 --> 00:16:21,485
Speaker 2: No, And so they hold you because they have enough

335
00:16:21,845 --> 00:16:24,845
Speaker 2: evidence to support going to trial. It's how long your

336
00:16:25,445 --> 00:16:28,205
Speaker 2: trial gets to go to court, and on the bigger

337
00:16:28,245 --> 00:16:30,685
Speaker 2: cases it's usually out in months to two years. So

338
00:16:31,565 --> 00:16:36,365
Speaker 2: your maximum security. The minimum security prison has no fences,

339
00:16:36,565 --> 00:16:39,925
Speaker 2: so only people on very short sentences that if they

340
00:16:40,165 --> 00:16:42,685
Speaker 2: know they're not going to run the risk of running away.

341
00:16:42,765 --> 00:16:44,765
Speaker 2: You wouldn't put someone up there on murder, you know,

342
00:16:44,805 --> 00:16:48,365
Speaker 2: in twenty years, because they'll run. So you've only got

343
00:16:48,765 --> 00:16:51,685
Speaker 2: this one prison that holds everyone, So everyone in it

344
00:16:51,685 --> 00:16:54,645
Speaker 2: is maximum security. Even though once I was sentenced, I

345
00:16:54,645 --> 00:16:56,925
Speaker 2: could have gone to Tarangouer, but I didn't want to.

346
00:16:57,085 --> 00:17:00,045
Speaker 2: I had a really important role at the maximum security prison,

347
00:17:00,125 --> 00:17:02,525
Speaker 2: and to me, it wasn't maximum. It was just my prison.

348
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Speaker 1: How is it different from what you expected?

349
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Speaker 2: Because it's a funny place as well. Once you settle

350
00:17:08,245 --> 00:17:10,485
Speaker 2: in and you know where you stand, I suss that

351
00:17:10,565 --> 00:17:16,285
Speaker 2: out very very quickly. I have a good intuition and whatnot.

352
00:17:16,325 --> 00:17:19,925
Speaker 2: I'm also very interested in women. I was also very

353
00:17:20,045 --> 00:17:22,685
Speaker 2: much one of them. I never set myself aside from them.

354
00:17:22,965 --> 00:17:24,765
Speaker 2: Whether it was a drug crime, whether it was murder,

355
00:17:24,805 --> 00:17:26,925
Speaker 2: whether it was whatever. I was right in there with them,

356
00:17:27,005 --> 00:17:30,005
Speaker 2: you know. So I didn't Sometimes in prison, white collar

357
00:17:30,045 --> 00:17:33,205
Speaker 2: people contend to separate themselves and go, well, you know,

358
00:17:33,365 --> 00:17:35,085
Speaker 2: I didn't harm anyone, and I didn't do this and

359
00:17:35,125 --> 00:17:37,005
Speaker 2: that the other and because you don't actually get your

360
00:17:37,045 --> 00:17:41,525
Speaker 2: hands dirty. That's that's today's nail. That's a sure fire

361
00:17:41,645 --> 00:17:44,885
Speaker 2: way of getting the compound to turn against you. You know.

362
00:17:45,045 --> 00:17:47,645
Speaker 2: So I was very much a part of them, and

363
00:17:47,725 --> 00:17:51,005
Speaker 2: I you know, I liked a great deal of the women.

364
00:17:51,045 --> 00:17:53,965
Speaker 2: Some of them I couldn't stand, but like any group

365
00:17:54,005 --> 00:17:57,245
Speaker 2: of yeah, exactly, that's that's my point. But it's it's

366
00:17:57,365 --> 00:18:00,765
Speaker 2: I liked the vast majority of women. Once they come

367
00:18:00,805 --> 00:18:03,005
Speaker 2: off there withdrawals and they come off their drugs and

368
00:18:03,045 --> 00:18:06,125
Speaker 2: whatever else, that's when they really need help, because that's

369
00:18:06,125 --> 00:18:08,805
Speaker 2: when reality for them really sort of settles in. And

370
00:18:09,405 --> 00:18:11,205
Speaker 2: you know, so I liked the woman.

371
00:18:12,805 --> 00:18:15,605
Speaker 1: Did you have to suspend judgment?

372
00:18:17,925 --> 00:18:21,605
Speaker 2: That's a good question because sometimes yes and sometimes no.

373
00:18:22,365 --> 00:18:24,805
Speaker 2: You know, the amount of women that come in that

374
00:18:25,045 --> 00:18:27,965
Speaker 2: you know of a crime, and a big crime, whether

375
00:18:27,965 --> 00:18:30,245
Speaker 2: it be murder or attempted murder, you know, on partners,

376
00:18:30,405 --> 00:18:34,445
Speaker 2: you know, that to me just was water off a

377
00:18:34,525 --> 00:18:36,765
Speaker 2: ducks back. You describe.

378
00:18:37,925 --> 00:18:40,245
Speaker 1: Tending to one person who arrives because you sort of

379
00:18:40,285 --> 00:18:45,325
Speaker 1: greeted the new arts. Yeah, and she just stabbed her

380
00:18:45,325 --> 00:18:48,605
Speaker 1: partner like twenty times, and as you were just sort

381
00:18:48,645 --> 00:18:52,085
Speaker 1: of not processing her but kind of easing her into

382
00:18:52,165 --> 00:18:54,325
Speaker 1: and making sure she was okay and settling her in.

383
00:18:55,605 --> 00:18:57,845
Speaker 1: She was just telling you about her crimes, and you

384
00:18:57,885 --> 00:18:58,565
Speaker 1: were just like.

385
00:18:59,365 --> 00:19:00,765
Speaker 2: I remember that I was. I was trying to make

386
00:19:00,765 --> 00:19:04,405
Speaker 2: her a cup of coffee and she and you know,

387
00:19:04,565 --> 00:19:06,165
Speaker 2: and she was sort of like she was just sitting

388
00:19:06,485 --> 00:19:08,885
Speaker 2: And this is what tended to happen, is that it'll

389
00:19:08,925 --> 00:19:11,285
Speaker 2: be the first that they can confess about something or

390
00:19:11,325 --> 00:19:12,965
Speaker 2: get it off their chests. Not so much confess, but

391
00:19:13,005 --> 00:19:14,565
Speaker 2: get it off their chest. It's probably a better way

392
00:19:14,565 --> 00:19:17,245
Speaker 2: of saying it because they know they're around someone who cares.

393
00:19:17,285 --> 00:19:20,405
Speaker 2: I've made that very upfront. They also know that I'm

394
00:19:20,445 --> 00:19:22,365
Speaker 2: not going to say anything. I'm one of them. I'm not,

395
00:19:22,605 --> 00:19:24,445
Speaker 2: you know, and no one will listen to me anyway,

396
00:19:24,645 --> 00:19:27,085
Speaker 2: And I don't care. They've got a due process that

397
00:19:27,125 --> 00:19:30,165
Speaker 2: they can go through. But sometimes people want to do that,

398
00:19:30,205 --> 00:19:32,045
Speaker 2: you know. They feel the need that they can talk

399
00:19:32,085 --> 00:19:33,685
Speaker 2: to someone that they can trust. They don't even know

400
00:19:33,725 --> 00:19:37,245
Speaker 2: their lawyers by that stage. So and I remember she

401
00:19:37,285 --> 00:19:39,565
Speaker 2: was sitting there, and I think it's the first time

402
00:19:39,765 --> 00:19:44,125
Speaker 2: because the crime of stabbing him was only about five

403
00:19:44,165 --> 00:19:48,445
Speaker 2: hours old, so she'd been caught taken through the police system,

404
00:19:48,485 --> 00:19:51,525
Speaker 2: which is very non individual sort of you know, and

405
00:19:51,565 --> 00:19:53,365
Speaker 2: then brought out here. So I was the first person,

406
00:19:53,325 --> 00:19:55,245
Speaker 2: and when she sat down next to me, I said

407
00:19:55,285 --> 00:19:59,325
Speaker 2: to her, sweetheart, you're fine, You're safe. You're safe here.

408
00:19:59,365 --> 00:20:02,165
Speaker 2: We women are going to look after you. And it's okay.

409
00:20:02,325 --> 00:20:03,965
Speaker 2: I need you to know that so that you can

410
00:20:04,125 --> 00:20:06,325
Speaker 2: then relax and we can start working on where you're

411
00:20:06,325 --> 00:20:09,325
Speaker 2: going to go. Have you got kids, tell me about

412
00:20:09,445 --> 00:20:12,045
Speaker 2: your kids, that sort of stuff, And that's that can

413
00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:16,165
Speaker 2: bring a whole new wave of safety, because sometimes it's

414
00:20:16,205 --> 00:20:18,165
Speaker 2: safer on the inside than it is on the outside,

415
00:20:18,285 --> 00:20:20,765
Speaker 2: you know, because the outside is where the crimes are committed.

416
00:20:21,245 --> 00:20:24,165
Speaker 2: On the inside, we're dealing with broken people themselves. But

417
00:20:24,205 --> 00:20:27,125
Speaker 2: I'd heard it so many times, you know, And I

418
00:20:27,165 --> 00:20:30,605
Speaker 2: remember I was trying to she just wasn't cooperating and

419
00:20:31,045 --> 00:20:35,365
Speaker 2: getting this coffee made for her and she wants your girls,

420
00:20:35,405 --> 00:20:37,565
Speaker 2: and she's like, she's like, then I stabbed in, you know,

421
00:20:37,765 --> 00:20:40,165
Speaker 2: and and and you know, I could I could hear

422
00:20:40,245 --> 00:20:43,365
Speaker 2: this noise in his chest and then I'd be like, right, sorry,

423
00:20:43,525 --> 00:20:46,165
Speaker 2: you know, did you want milk in that? In that coffee?

424
00:20:46,365 --> 00:20:48,725
Speaker 2: She's said, yeah, yeah, I have to milk. I said,

425
00:20:48,765 --> 00:20:50,805
Speaker 2: to her, Oh okay, so sorry, sorry you were stabbing

426
00:20:50,885 --> 00:20:52,805
Speaker 2: him and you heard noises like you just pick up

427
00:20:52,805 --> 00:20:54,805
Speaker 2: from there and off we go. And it wasn't until

428
00:20:54,805 --> 00:20:57,205
Speaker 2: one of the officers said to me, you know, Jesus,

429
00:20:57,645 --> 00:21:00,565
Speaker 2: you know, and then I started thinking, okay, maybe this

430
00:21:00,685 --> 00:21:05,045
Speaker 2: is becoming just too common. It's becoming too common for me.

431
00:21:05,165 --> 00:21:07,605
Speaker 2: So those sort of crimes I never you know, I

432
00:21:07,645 --> 00:21:09,885
Speaker 2: never ever had any judgment there. There are a couple

433
00:21:09,925 --> 00:21:12,325
Speaker 2: of people that I did have judgment on absolutely, but

434
00:21:12,365 --> 00:21:16,205
Speaker 2: that was because I absolutely did not like them their heart,

435
00:21:16,245 --> 00:21:19,765
Speaker 2: their soul or whatever, and that's just part and parcel

436
00:21:19,765 --> 00:21:24,085
Speaker 2: of a community of women. But you know, yeah, I

437
00:21:24,085 --> 00:21:26,485
Speaker 2: didn't have any any judgment at all.

438
00:21:26,525 --> 00:21:29,205
Speaker 1: What about the place in prison of women who are

439
00:21:29,205 --> 00:21:31,525
Speaker 1: there for her harming or killing their kids.

440
00:21:32,725 --> 00:21:36,485
Speaker 2: That's in protection from protection from protection. So you've got protection,

441
00:21:36,805 --> 00:21:40,885
Speaker 2: which is which is generally where women go if they

442
00:21:41,125 --> 00:21:44,685
Speaker 2: are if someone on the compound, on the main part

443
00:21:44,685 --> 00:21:46,925
Speaker 2: of the prison is a threat to them, and it

444
00:21:46,965 --> 00:21:50,325
Speaker 2: will always be if someone has testified against another prisoner.

445
00:21:50,365 --> 00:21:52,325
Speaker 2: So you might have two women that have done the

446
00:21:52,325 --> 00:21:55,565
Speaker 2: same crime and one is staying, you know, quiet, and

447
00:21:55,565 --> 00:21:58,005
Speaker 2: the other one goes. It was her. So that's the

448
00:21:58,005 --> 00:21:59,925
Speaker 2: worst thing that can happen in a criminal world. So

449
00:21:59,965 --> 00:22:02,485
Speaker 2: they'll go to the protection or what they call the boner,

450
00:22:04,045 --> 00:22:06,445
Speaker 2: so they'll go to protection for that. People that have

451
00:22:07,325 --> 00:22:09,485
Speaker 2: that have sexually abused their kids and want to go

452
00:22:09,525 --> 00:22:12,805
Speaker 2: to another area that's within that and even smaller, and

453
00:22:12,805 --> 00:22:17,285
Speaker 2: that's protection from protection because the women that have sexually abused.

454
00:22:16,925 --> 00:22:19,125
Speaker 1: Their kids or harmed there.

455
00:22:19,205 --> 00:22:22,805
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the women that are in protection anyway,

456
00:22:22,965 --> 00:22:25,805
Speaker 2: they're still just normal creams that have given somebody else up.

457
00:22:25,805 --> 00:22:29,365
Speaker 2: But they still have opinions about women harming children, so

458
00:22:29,405 --> 00:22:32,005
Speaker 2: they need to and I don't understand. Let's just go back.

459
00:22:32,365 --> 00:22:36,845
Speaker 1: So the women who've harmed their children, they they in

460
00:22:36,885 --> 00:22:37,765
Speaker 1: a separate place.

461
00:22:37,925 --> 00:22:40,725
Speaker 2: But there in where we were there there's a protection

462
00:22:40,885 --> 00:22:44,325
Speaker 2: building and there's the protection prisoners off to the right

463
00:22:44,445 --> 00:22:48,925
Speaker 2: and then off to the left. They're segregated again, they

464
00:22:49,165 --> 00:22:52,165
Speaker 2: because the women in protection still have issues with them,

465
00:22:52,245 --> 00:22:52,685
Speaker 2: let alone.

466
00:22:52,845 --> 00:22:57,045
Speaker 1: So they're the lowest of the absolutely in pretty much everybody.

467
00:22:57,245 --> 00:23:00,485
Speaker 2: And particularly in women as well, because because all of

468
00:23:00,485 --> 00:23:04,245
Speaker 2: the women see themselves in those tormented kids. You know,

469
00:23:04,645 --> 00:23:08,805
Speaker 2: they've all been sexually abused, you know, ninety percent probably

470
00:23:08,845 --> 00:23:11,045
Speaker 2: more have been sexually abused as a child, so they

471
00:23:11,085 --> 00:23:13,085
Speaker 2: know what it's like. And then this woman comes in

472
00:23:13,165 --> 00:23:14,805
Speaker 2: saying that this is what they've done to their child.

473
00:23:14,965 --> 00:23:17,085
Speaker 2: They see themselves in those children, and.

474
00:23:17,005 --> 00:23:21,205
Speaker 1: It's just you know, it's just quarantine and population.

475
00:23:21,325 --> 00:23:24,885
Speaker 2: Oh yes, And and when they're moved, the entire prison

476
00:23:24,925 --> 00:23:27,205
Speaker 2: will be locked down. Everyone will be taken back to

477
00:23:27,245 --> 00:23:30,205
Speaker 2: their cells or to their cottages and whatnot and lockdown

478
00:23:30,645 --> 00:23:33,885
Speaker 2: because if they're you know, if if there's any prisoners

479
00:23:33,885 --> 00:23:36,685
Speaker 2: out on the compound. When these women are on the compound.

480
00:23:36,965 --> 00:23:38,805
Speaker 1: Film, what do you do for sex?

481
00:23:39,445 --> 00:23:42,365
Speaker 2: Well, it depends. You know, I'm heterosexual, and I wasn't

482
00:23:42,365 --> 00:23:45,445
Speaker 2: about to. It didn't interest me. You know, I can

483
00:23:45,565 --> 00:23:49,005
Speaker 2: women can go without if they need to. Young younger women,

484
00:23:49,805 --> 00:23:51,925
Speaker 2: of course, there were the ones that had you know,

485
00:23:51,965 --> 00:23:56,005
Speaker 2: that come in that were gay and got into relationships

486
00:23:56,005 --> 00:23:58,805
Speaker 2: with other women that were gay, which is which is fabulous,

487
00:23:58,845 --> 00:24:01,085
Speaker 2: but that always ends in tears because someone gets released

488
00:24:01,125 --> 00:24:04,885
Speaker 2: before somebody else, and then there's those expectations the younger girls.

489
00:24:04,885 --> 00:24:06,405
Speaker 2: You know, it was just a it was just a

490
00:24:06,485 --> 00:24:10,325
Speaker 2: sex sex word yep, gate gay gay cat. But you know,

491
00:24:10,365 --> 00:24:12,485
Speaker 2: and that's and that's because women a lot of the

492
00:24:12,525 --> 00:24:15,965
Speaker 2: women that were having sully, older women from say thirty on,

493
00:24:16,045 --> 00:24:19,645
Speaker 2: that were having relationships with other women. It was more

494
00:24:19,725 --> 00:24:22,165
Speaker 2: about the companionship, about the affection.

495
00:24:22,325 --> 00:24:22,525
Speaker 1: You know.

496
00:24:22,565 --> 00:24:24,405
Speaker 2: It was the first time that they had actually because

497
00:24:24,445 --> 00:24:27,365
Speaker 2: I used to say, why change why, you know, And

498
00:24:27,685 --> 00:24:29,925
Speaker 2: that's what it was about. Wasn't the companionship and that,

499
00:24:30,405 --> 00:24:32,085
Speaker 2: you know, not having the crap belt out of you?

500
00:24:32,125 --> 00:24:35,125
Speaker 2: I guess. So, you know, it's very complex situations when

501
00:24:35,165 --> 00:24:37,005
Speaker 2: it comes to you know, you get it. You get

502
00:24:37,005 --> 00:24:39,485
Speaker 2: a lot of girls that come in that are you know,

503
00:24:39,605 --> 00:24:41,725
Speaker 2: twenty one, twenty two, you know, and they come and

504
00:24:41,805 --> 00:24:45,965
Speaker 2: upset the balance of stable gay relationships in there. You know,

505
00:24:46,165 --> 00:24:47,725
Speaker 2: they come in and just blow and put a hand

506
00:24:47,765 --> 00:24:50,525
Speaker 2: grenade amongst it, and that causes a lot of issues,

507
00:24:50,725 --> 00:24:50,965
Speaker 2: you know.

508
00:24:51,165 --> 00:24:55,085
Speaker 1: So there are no conjugal visits with no no, no,

509
00:24:55,205 --> 00:24:56,565
Speaker 1: and no sleeping with guards.

510
00:24:56,805 --> 00:24:56,965
Speaker 2: No.

511
00:24:57,445 --> 00:24:59,525
Speaker 1: I've been watching too much Orange in your Black.

512
00:24:59,805 --> 00:25:03,325
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, the American prisons are quite different, you know,

513
00:25:03,485 --> 00:25:07,205
Speaker 2: but no at Taran Gower, there are you know you

514
00:25:07,245 --> 00:25:09,165
Speaker 2: because they have the little family units and that's what

515
00:25:09,805 --> 00:25:12,565
Speaker 2: four it's all. Tarang I was also good for women

516
00:25:12,605 --> 00:25:15,085
Speaker 2: that are coming off twenty years sentences. They'll send them

517
00:25:15,125 --> 00:25:16,765
Speaker 2: up there for the last three years, you know, or

518
00:25:16,805 --> 00:25:19,045
Speaker 2: two years, you know, so that they can slowly because

519
00:25:19,085 --> 00:25:23,085
Speaker 2: reintegrading back into the community is a huge, huge thing

520
00:25:23,205 --> 00:25:25,965
Speaker 2: to be faced with. But you know, I know I was.

521
00:25:27,005 --> 00:25:29,885
Speaker 2: I can't imagine after fifteen, sixteen, seven, eight years, you know,

522
00:25:29,965 --> 00:25:33,565
Speaker 2: particularly is an older woman, you know, so, but we

523
00:25:33,605 --> 00:25:36,245
Speaker 2: certainly didn't have no. This is a maximum security prison,

524
00:25:36,365 --> 00:25:38,885
Speaker 2: so you know, maximum everything.

525
00:25:47,005 --> 00:25:50,005
Speaker 1: Early on, you describe a conversation you had to have

526
00:25:50,045 --> 00:25:51,925
Speaker 1: with your daughters on the phone when you had to

527
00:25:51,965 --> 00:25:55,125
Speaker 1: tell them you couldn't come home and they couldn't understand why,

528
00:25:55,405 --> 00:25:57,925
Speaker 1: and they were very distressed. They were five and seven

529
00:25:58,165 --> 00:26:04,085
Speaker 1: when you were initially arrested. Yeah, how do you stay

530
00:26:04,165 --> 00:26:07,285
Speaker 1: being a mum and stay connected to your children for

531
00:26:07,365 --> 00:26:09,205
Speaker 1: those formative years when you're in prison.

532
00:26:09,605 --> 00:26:12,845
Speaker 2: Look, it's the hardest thing ever, you know. I think

533
00:26:12,845 --> 00:26:14,365
Speaker 2: that might have been when I was in the visit

534
00:26:14,445 --> 00:26:18,045
Speaker 2: center when you know, I'm watching the first visit I

535
00:26:18,085 --> 00:26:20,285
Speaker 2: had with the girls and they come racing in and

536
00:26:20,365 --> 00:26:23,245
Speaker 2: you know, their little little arms and legs, you know,

537
00:26:23,365 --> 00:26:26,005
Speaker 2: just hang off you. And then seeing them walked out

538
00:26:26,045 --> 00:26:30,805
Speaker 2: of the visit center with two burly corrections officers you know,

539
00:26:30,965 --> 00:26:32,765
Speaker 2: and to them, they were like policemen, you know, and

540
00:26:32,805 --> 00:26:35,245
Speaker 2: they're yelling out, come with us, mummy, come with it.

541
00:26:35,245 --> 00:26:39,645
Speaker 2: It still breaks my heart today, It just yeah, it

542
00:26:39,725 --> 00:26:43,365
Speaker 2: just breaks my heart. So trying to remain relevant in

543
00:26:43,405 --> 00:26:48,885
Speaker 2: their life was the thing that fuelled me because I

544
00:26:48,885 --> 00:26:52,165
Speaker 2: always knew that I was going to get over the

545
00:26:52,285 --> 00:26:54,885
Speaker 2: crime in a sense, you know, and I don't mean

546
00:26:54,925 --> 00:26:56,925
Speaker 2: that in any disrespectful way, but I knew that I

547
00:26:56,965 --> 00:27:00,965
Speaker 2: would be able to move through that. But to get

548
00:27:00,965 --> 00:27:03,885
Speaker 2: my daughter's respect back and whatnot, I knew I had

549
00:27:03,925 --> 00:27:06,605
Speaker 2: to do something much bigger than my sentence, you know,

550
00:27:06,725 --> 00:27:09,445
Speaker 2: so that I could eclipse all of that and for

551
00:27:09,485 --> 00:27:11,325
Speaker 2: them to say that they're proud of me from that

552
00:27:11,485 --> 00:27:15,245
Speaker 2: moment to that moment, I had to do something major

553
00:27:15,525 --> 00:27:18,165
Speaker 2: because you know, for the girls to be able to

554
00:27:18,205 --> 00:27:22,965
Speaker 2: do that, we had six minute phone calls, you know,

555
00:27:23,365 --> 00:27:25,605
Speaker 2: so six minutes with each child. Twelve minute phone calls

556
00:27:25,605 --> 00:27:28,085
Speaker 2: and it cuts off. There are automated phones out there,

557
00:27:28,085 --> 00:27:30,925
Speaker 2: and I had two a week, so when there's six

558
00:27:31,005 --> 00:27:34,325
Speaker 2: and seven, you know, i'd have six minutes with its

559
00:27:34,405 --> 00:27:37,125
Speaker 2: child and you know, three minutes into it, they still

560
00:27:37,165 --> 00:27:40,405
Speaker 2: haven't said a word. You're there you're okay, sweetheart, or this.

561
00:27:40,605 --> 00:27:43,525
Speaker 2: They might be crying and then they'll just start to

562
00:27:43,565 --> 00:27:47,325
Speaker 2: open up, and you've got to say, put Channing on,

563
00:27:47,365 --> 00:27:49,645
Speaker 2: put Channing on Sarah, puts Sarah's crying.

564
00:27:49,685 --> 00:27:49,845
Speaker 1: You know.

565
00:27:50,285 --> 00:27:53,925
Speaker 2: It's it's just I would have I didn't do anything

566
00:27:53,965 --> 00:27:57,685
Speaker 2: wrong in prison, but I would have absolutely sold my

567
00:27:57,805 --> 00:28:00,885
Speaker 2: soul for a mobile phone because I would have done anything.

568
00:28:01,485 --> 00:28:06,245
Speaker 2: Decide women have them No, No, some women silly, stupidly enough,

569
00:28:06,485 --> 00:28:08,845
Speaker 2: you know, brought brought them in. And they bring them

570
00:28:08,845 --> 00:28:13,245
Speaker 2: in vaginally. Yeah, so I'll never forget. One day we

571
00:28:13,485 --> 00:28:17,405
Speaker 2: didn't end up putting this book, but one woman had

572
00:28:17,485 --> 00:28:19,845
Speaker 2: just arrived, and then we had dog squad raid, you know,

573
00:28:19,845 --> 00:28:21,965
Speaker 2: from the police, and we were standing out in line.

574
00:28:22,245 --> 00:28:23,725
Speaker 2: You know that they run the dogs over you to

575
00:28:23,765 --> 00:28:24,005
Speaker 2: see that.

576
00:28:24,285 --> 00:28:25,205
Speaker 1: How did that happen? Often?

577
00:28:25,365 --> 00:28:25,565
Speaker 2: Yeah?

578
00:28:26,405 --> 00:28:27,285
Speaker 1: What were they looking for?

579
00:28:27,405 --> 00:28:31,205
Speaker 2: Drugs? Anything? They just it was a routine sort of thing.

580
00:28:31,125 --> 00:28:33,525
Speaker 1: You know. So vagina is the way people would smuggle

581
00:28:33,565 --> 00:28:34,885
Speaker 1: things in and out of the prison.

582
00:28:34,805 --> 00:28:38,125
Speaker 2: Yep, yep. And and one woman can can bring in

583
00:28:38,125 --> 00:28:43,805
Speaker 2: a ship loaded drugs really vaginally. I didn't, Yes, that's

584
00:28:43,885 --> 00:28:48,325
Speaker 2: exactly totally so, you know, and this woman had brought

585
00:28:48,325 --> 00:28:50,445
Speaker 2: in the tiny little mobile phone hadn't thought it through

586
00:28:50,685 --> 00:28:56,285
Speaker 2: because it started ringing in her vagina. The dogs got

587
00:28:56,325 --> 00:28:58,205
Speaker 2: of walking along with the dogs, you know, seeing if

588
00:28:58,205 --> 00:29:00,325
Speaker 2: we've got drugged. And next to it there's this mobile phone.

589
00:29:00,365 --> 00:29:01,805
Speaker 2: We could houst hear it and it was like and

590
00:29:01,845 --> 00:29:03,805
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, I looked at us. You

591
00:29:03,845 --> 00:29:04,925
Speaker 2: said you're vagina ringing.

592
00:29:06,045 --> 00:29:09,645
Speaker 1: It was yeah, and put it on flatious.

593
00:29:09,765 --> 00:29:11,525
Speaker 2: It was hilarious. It was like you didn't think that

594
00:29:11,565 --> 00:29:16,005
Speaker 2: one's really you know, some of those things were just

595
00:29:16,205 --> 00:29:19,005
Speaker 2: you know, there are some really funny funny times in

596
00:29:19,085 --> 00:29:21,925
Speaker 2: there as well. But yeah, so most of the most

597
00:29:21,925 --> 00:29:24,605
Speaker 2: of the drugs. Because you're going to prison doesn't mean

598
00:29:24,605 --> 00:29:26,525
Speaker 2: that you're going to stop taking drugs. You're an adict,

599
00:29:26,645 --> 00:29:28,485
Speaker 2: and an addict is an addict is an addict. You

600
00:29:28,565 --> 00:29:30,925
Speaker 2: get more drugs in prison than anywhere else, you know,

601
00:29:31,285 --> 00:29:33,845
Speaker 2: because that's how it is. That's that's how it works.

602
00:29:33,965 --> 00:29:36,565
Speaker 2: Everyone's an addict. They don't want to go through withdrawal,

603
00:29:37,125 --> 00:29:39,485
Speaker 2: you know, and also being in prison is enough to

604
00:29:39,525 --> 00:29:40,765
Speaker 2: probably take drugs as well.

605
00:29:41,005 --> 00:29:43,165
Speaker 1: You've sat with a lot of people going through withdraw.

606
00:29:43,005 --> 00:29:47,085
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, and like horrific. It's it's it's terrific. They

607
00:29:47,085 --> 00:29:49,405
Speaker 2: have diarrhea, they can't get off their beds. So the obvious,

608
00:29:49,565 --> 00:29:52,605
Speaker 2: you know, happened to the sweating. The you know, some

609
00:29:52,645 --> 00:29:54,125
Speaker 2: of them I thought were going to have a heart attack,

610
00:29:54,165 --> 00:29:56,005
Speaker 2: you know that, and they were so some of them

611
00:29:56,005 --> 00:29:58,285
Speaker 2: were like forty five, forty six, forty seven kilos, you

612
00:29:58,285 --> 00:30:01,365
Speaker 2: know they were, And it was just wretched. It breaks

613
00:30:01,445 --> 00:30:03,685
Speaker 2: your heart, you know. And one of the first things

614
00:30:03,725 --> 00:30:07,725
Speaker 2: I did was able to get cordial. You know, I'd

615
00:30:07,725 --> 00:30:11,405
Speaker 2: go up because everything's rat you know, so I'd sneak

616
00:30:11,485 --> 00:30:13,165
Speaker 2: up to the kitchen and get the girls up there

617
00:30:13,805 --> 00:30:17,125
Speaker 2: and would steal extra cordial to take another scamper back

618
00:30:17,165 --> 00:30:20,005
Speaker 2: down to you know, the remanding unit with mo Hall,

619
00:30:20,245 --> 00:30:23,525
Speaker 2: you know, and give them you know, generally straight cordial,

620
00:30:23,605 --> 00:30:25,205
Speaker 2: just to get some sugar into their system. You know.

621
00:30:25,285 --> 00:30:29,765
Speaker 2: It was just terrific. It's people really don't understand that,

622
00:30:29,805 --> 00:30:31,925
Speaker 2: you know, why they would want to not go through

623
00:30:31,965 --> 00:30:32,485
Speaker 2: a withdrawal.

624
00:30:33,125 --> 00:30:35,325
Speaker 1: It sounds like you had such purpose.

625
00:30:35,965 --> 00:30:38,365
Speaker 2: I did. I knew your own prison, Yeah, I did,

626
00:30:38,405 --> 00:30:40,725
Speaker 2: you know, And I think I think it also too,

627
00:30:40,845 --> 00:30:44,565
Speaker 2: was it It was also a distraction from me from

628
00:30:44,605 --> 00:30:47,645
Speaker 2: my children, you know, trying to trying to.

629
00:30:47,565 --> 00:30:49,205
Speaker 1: Just Sue, a mother and other women.

630
00:30:49,445 --> 00:30:51,765
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I was one of the healthiest there,

631
00:30:51,765 --> 00:30:55,005
Speaker 2: and I could do this. Other girls, you know, they

632
00:30:55,085 --> 00:30:57,085
Speaker 2: might have wanted to have but they couldn't. Either they

633
00:30:57,085 --> 00:31:00,325
Speaker 2: didn't have the vocabulary or the education, or they were sick,

634
00:31:00,445 --> 00:31:03,045
Speaker 2: or for whatever reason, it just happened to be there

635
00:31:03,085 --> 00:31:05,365
Speaker 2: was a gap, and I happened to be there. One

636
00:31:05,405 --> 00:31:07,045
Speaker 2: of the other things I did with the girls, too,

637
00:31:07,205 --> 00:31:10,965
Speaker 2: was that we've all got good sense of humor, the

638
00:31:10,965 --> 00:31:13,405
Speaker 2: girls as well. And so I'd get a card each

639
00:31:13,485 --> 00:31:17,365
Speaker 2: day from the canteen, and I got the programs officers

640
00:31:17,365 --> 00:31:19,485
Speaker 2: to get me some joke books, kids joke books, and

641
00:31:20,325 --> 00:31:23,525
Speaker 2: each day I'd write in the card, you know, and

642
00:31:23,565 --> 00:31:26,765
Speaker 2: I sequenced them so that you know, there was this

643
00:31:26,925 --> 00:31:31,525
Speaker 2: ongoing fluid connection. So I'd say, you know, one card

644
00:31:31,525 --> 00:31:33,485
Speaker 2: each I'll go dish and today I thought of you

645
00:31:33,765 --> 00:31:36,525
Speaker 2: a hundred times, and then I'd put a joke in it,

646
00:31:37,085 --> 00:31:39,965
Speaker 2: and then i'd do the same for Sarah. And then

647
00:31:40,005 --> 00:31:42,325
Speaker 2: the next day i'd tell them what the answer to

648
00:31:42,365 --> 00:31:44,245
Speaker 2: the joke was. And I thought of more one hundred

649
00:31:44,285 --> 00:31:46,965
Speaker 2: and one times, right up until it was sixteen hundred

650
00:31:46,965 --> 00:31:49,245
Speaker 2: times a day that I was thinking of them, and

651
00:31:49,485 --> 00:31:51,845
Speaker 2: they've still got all those all of those you know,

652
00:31:51,885 --> 00:31:54,525
Speaker 2: I didn't realize it until about twelve months ago. They've

653
00:31:54,525 --> 00:31:55,845
Speaker 2: still got all the books of cards.

654
00:31:55,925 --> 00:32:00,125
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was that really like trying to parent, yeah,

655
00:32:00,165 --> 00:32:02,565
Speaker 1: try trying to stay in their lives.

656
00:32:02,285 --> 00:32:05,565
Speaker 2: Trying to stay in their lives. I couldn't parent. And

657
00:32:05,645 --> 00:32:07,245
Speaker 2: it got to the point too where you know, they

658
00:32:07,245 --> 00:32:10,485
Speaker 2: were talking, their lives were moving on and so naturally,

659
00:32:10,565 --> 00:32:12,565
Speaker 2: so when they would come and talk to me about

660
00:32:13,485 --> 00:32:15,925
Speaker 2: people I didn't know them, they were new friends, they

661
00:32:15,965 --> 00:32:19,965
Speaker 2: were knew. So I just wasn't interested in that side

662
00:32:19,965 --> 00:32:24,885
Speaker 2: of things because in prison, it's about the actual tangible connection,

663
00:32:25,045 --> 00:32:27,725
Speaker 2: physical connection with me and my girls. When they started

664
00:32:27,725 --> 00:32:30,845
Speaker 2: talking about stuff on the outside, I couldn't even visualize

665
00:32:30,965 --> 00:32:32,525
Speaker 2: who they were or what they were or where they

666
00:32:32,525 --> 00:32:35,085
Speaker 2: come from or whatever. So to me, they just weren't relevant.

667
00:32:35,605 --> 00:32:38,405
Speaker 2: And it also showed how much I was missing out on,

668
00:32:38,885 --> 00:32:40,205
Speaker 2: you know, So when they come to see me, I

669
00:32:40,285 --> 00:32:41,685
Speaker 2: just wanted to sit and talk to them and just

670
00:32:41,765 --> 00:32:44,525
Speaker 2: be with them and you know, be in that moment

671
00:32:44,645 --> 00:32:47,565
Speaker 2: with them. So it was there's a disconnection there as well,

672
00:32:47,565 --> 00:32:49,445
Speaker 2: because I just know who they'll talk about, you.

673
00:32:49,365 --> 00:32:53,085
Speaker 1: Know, some of the women in there have arrived pregnant.

674
00:32:53,925 --> 00:32:56,045
Speaker 1: And what happens if you give birth in jail? How

675
00:32:56,045 --> 00:32:56,565
Speaker 1: does that go?

676
00:32:56,925 --> 00:32:58,725
Speaker 2: Well, it depends. You know, most of the women that

677
00:32:58,805 --> 00:33:03,165
Speaker 2: arrive that are pregnant, the fair majority when I was

678
00:33:03,165 --> 00:33:06,285
Speaker 2: there anyway, were drug users. So the child was born addicted.

679
00:33:07,525 --> 00:33:11,125
Speaker 2: Where possible, the child will be kept with the mother,

680
00:33:11,925 --> 00:33:12,885
Speaker 2: and so the mother.

681
00:33:12,805 --> 00:33:14,485
Speaker 1: Even if they were an addicted Yep.

682
00:33:14,605 --> 00:33:16,885
Speaker 2: Absolutely, the mother will be taken into the hospital, she'll

683
00:33:16,925 --> 00:33:19,405
Speaker 2: give birth, she'll come back out, and then she'll go

684
00:33:19,525 --> 00:33:21,725
Speaker 2: back in each day to see the child where needed,

685
00:33:21,965 --> 00:33:24,845
Speaker 2: or stay in there with them once she's okay. Bubb

686
00:33:24,885 --> 00:33:27,205
Speaker 2: will usually stay on a little bit longer because they're addicted.

687
00:33:27,925 --> 00:33:29,685
Speaker 2: But the prison will take the mother in and out

688
00:33:30,005 --> 00:33:32,365
Speaker 2: and whatnot, and then the baby will come back. Unless

689
00:33:32,405 --> 00:33:35,805
Speaker 2: there's any unless she's been convicted of a violent crime,

690
00:33:36,005 --> 00:33:39,845
Speaker 2: unless there's been child offenses beforehand, unless DHS are involved,

691
00:33:39,965 --> 00:33:42,845
Speaker 2: you know that sort of stuff, taking it out. All

692
00:33:42,885 --> 00:33:44,445
Speaker 2: of that, the child will come back to the prison

693
00:33:44,445 --> 00:33:47,965
Speaker 2: with the mother. And in my mind, I still stand

694
00:33:48,005 --> 00:33:50,925
Speaker 2: by the fact that a child should be with its mother.

695
00:33:51,165 --> 00:33:53,405
Speaker 2: So long was it safe a child shall be with

696
00:33:53,405 --> 00:33:55,685
Speaker 2: this mother, Because I know with my daughters. You know,

697
00:33:56,365 --> 00:33:58,285
Speaker 2: the love of a child, as you know, can never

698
00:33:58,365 --> 00:34:01,445
Speaker 2: ever be touched, but the bond can absolutely be broken.

699
00:34:01,605 --> 00:34:04,285
Speaker 2: And that's never good for anybody because you know, the

700
00:34:04,405 --> 00:34:07,605
Speaker 2: particularly for the child. So the child needs to know

701
00:34:07,725 --> 00:34:10,605
Speaker 2: that and have that connection with it for the whole time.

702
00:34:11,085 --> 00:34:13,565
Speaker 2: The hidden victims of all of these are children that

703
00:34:13,605 --> 00:34:15,765
Speaker 2: think that their mother's abandoned them, and that's worse than

704
00:34:15,765 --> 00:34:19,725
Speaker 2: their father abandoned them, I believe, you know, because that

705
00:34:19,845 --> 00:34:23,925
Speaker 2: mothering nurturing side, if it's lost when they're younger, it

706
00:34:23,965 --> 00:34:27,445
Speaker 2: gives them the opportunity and the vulnerability to then enter

707
00:34:27,485 --> 00:34:30,365
Speaker 2: into relationships like that where they feel rejected, you know,

708
00:34:30,485 --> 00:34:32,165
Speaker 2: where they're not worth it.

709
00:34:32,445 --> 00:34:35,645
Speaker 1: What was the narrative your girls were told about where

710
00:34:35,685 --> 00:34:36,805
Speaker 1: you were and why you were there.

711
00:34:37,845 --> 00:34:41,005
Speaker 2: We were honest with with where they were and with

712
00:34:41,205 --> 00:34:46,805
Speaker 2: worth while I was there, and they started visiting me

713
00:34:46,845 --> 00:34:49,965
Speaker 2: at the prison pretty early on. After a while they

714
00:34:49,965 --> 00:34:52,605
Speaker 2: got used to it, and I don't think the funny

715
00:34:52,605 --> 00:34:54,805
Speaker 2: thing is now yeah, so they got used to it.

716
00:34:54,885 --> 00:34:55,085
Speaker 1: You know.

717
00:34:56,045 --> 00:34:59,445
Speaker 2: The hard part was was was, as I said, I

718
00:34:59,485 --> 00:35:01,805
Speaker 2: couldn't you know, say I'm not coming home next week.

719
00:35:01,845 --> 00:35:04,445
Speaker 2: I'm not coming home next month, I'm not coming home

720
00:35:04,485 --> 00:35:05,605
Speaker 2: for years, you know.

721
00:35:06,405 --> 00:35:08,325
Speaker 1: Oh, that's impossible for kids to think.

722
00:35:09,765 --> 00:35:12,805
Speaker 2: So what I do and it was just by default,

723
00:35:12,805 --> 00:35:15,005
Speaker 2: but because I didn't master plan this sort of thing,

724
00:35:15,045 --> 00:35:17,445
Speaker 2: but it worked out better was drip feed them a

725
00:35:17,445 --> 00:35:20,285
Speaker 2: little bit at a time, hopefully after Christmas, the judge

726
00:35:20,045 --> 00:35:22,285
Speaker 2: will tell him when Mommy can come home, you know,

727
00:35:22,605 --> 00:35:24,125
Speaker 2: even though I knew it was going to be, you know,

728
00:35:24,445 --> 00:35:27,205
Speaker 2: i'd do it in six months since you know. And

729
00:35:27,485 --> 00:35:29,565
Speaker 2: at the same time, they were sort of moving along

730
00:35:29,605 --> 00:35:31,685
Speaker 2: a little bit as well. It was so living with

731
00:35:31,685 --> 00:35:34,325
Speaker 2: their dad, yeah, and it was so different, and he

732
00:35:34,405 --> 00:35:36,805
Speaker 2: was terrific. You know. I was so fortunate that they

733
00:35:36,885 --> 00:35:39,805
Speaker 2: had a father that they could live with that tended

734
00:35:39,845 --> 00:35:43,645
Speaker 2: to them where the mother was away, you know. So

735
00:35:43,685 --> 00:35:47,485
Speaker 2: it was it was really quite It was really quite

736
00:35:47,485 --> 00:35:51,525
Speaker 2: difficult for them to understand, particularly why Mum isn't there.

737
00:35:51,605 --> 00:35:53,685
Speaker 2: But after a while they just got used to it.

738
00:35:54,005 --> 00:35:56,565
Speaker 2: And I was only talking to Sarah, who's twenty one tomorrow,

739
00:35:56,725 --> 00:35:58,605
Speaker 2: about this the other day and she said, you know,

740
00:35:58,765 --> 00:36:02,125
Speaker 2: she just doesn't remember, and I think that's just that's

741
00:36:02,125 --> 00:36:05,085
Speaker 2: something that she just probably doesn't want to remember, because

742
00:36:05,085 --> 00:36:08,325
Speaker 2: she remembers things prior to that, so, you know, but

743
00:36:08,685 --> 00:36:11,645
Speaker 2: it's nice to know that. You know, these are two

744
00:36:11,845 --> 00:36:17,525
Speaker 2: very strong, really well you know, disciplined, really well organized,

745
00:36:17,725 --> 00:36:20,885
Speaker 2: really responsible young women. You know, I'm very, very very

746
00:36:20,965 --> 00:36:22,405
Speaker 2: lucky that it hasn't been generation.

747
00:36:23,525 --> 00:36:24,845
Speaker 1: You've got a lot downe in the prison.

748
00:36:24,925 --> 00:36:29,045
Speaker 2: You wrote a book, the children's book was I noticed

749
00:36:29,045 --> 00:36:31,125
Speaker 2: a lot of women weren't seeing their kids. And again

750
00:36:31,285 --> 00:36:33,205
Speaker 2: I go to great pains to say that women in

751
00:36:33,245 --> 00:36:36,725
Speaker 2: prison do it tough, you know, and anybody that says

752
00:36:36,725 --> 00:36:40,765
Speaker 2: anything different, it doesn't know. And they're not an authority

753
00:36:40,805 --> 00:36:44,045
Speaker 2: on it, because they absolutely do. And you know, women

754
00:36:44,125 --> 00:36:46,885
Speaker 2: from domestic violence are used to accepting blame. You know,

755
00:36:46,965 --> 00:36:49,925
Speaker 2: it's always their fault, so you know that's they just

756
00:36:49,965 --> 00:36:51,645
Speaker 2: get on with it. They're tough and they just get

757
00:36:51,685 --> 00:36:53,405
Speaker 2: on with it. But they weren't seeing you know, a

758
00:36:53,405 --> 00:36:55,605
Speaker 2: lot of them weren't seeing their kids, you know. And

759
00:36:55,645 --> 00:36:58,645
Speaker 2: again it's not the women saying I'm their mother, I

760
00:36:58,645 --> 00:37:00,565
Speaker 2: should be I've got every right so my kids blah

761
00:37:00,605 --> 00:37:03,085
Speaker 2: blah blah. I've heard it all before. It's the children's

762
00:37:03,125 --> 00:37:04,925
Speaker 2: right to see their mother. A child will visit their

763
00:37:04,925 --> 00:37:07,205
Speaker 2: mother wherever they are and still love them. You know,

764
00:37:07,245 --> 00:37:10,445
Speaker 2: they'll usually be you know, I won't even know what's

765
00:37:10,485 --> 00:37:12,925
Speaker 2: around them. So that was what it was about, was

766
00:37:12,965 --> 00:37:15,285
Speaker 2: it was trying to let everybody know that the prison

767
00:37:15,525 --> 00:37:18,685
Speaker 2: is a safe place to visit, you know, for children

768
00:37:18,725 --> 00:37:22,365
Speaker 2: to come to. The offices are fantastic, you know. They

769
00:37:22,445 --> 00:37:24,165
Speaker 2: talked to the kids in her eyes, I was talking

770
00:37:24,165 --> 00:37:26,045
Speaker 2: to your mummy the other day, you know. So it

771
00:37:26,085 --> 00:37:28,205
Speaker 2: gives the kids this thought that they're in a mummy

772
00:37:28,285 --> 00:37:30,525
Speaker 2: safe and she's in another community just for a little while.

773
00:37:30,605 --> 00:37:33,885
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily a prison, so to speak. The visit

774
00:37:33,965 --> 00:37:36,805
Speaker 2: center brand of Money was the general manager when I

775
00:37:36,885 --> 00:37:38,845
Speaker 2: was there. He went to great pains to make sure

776
00:37:38,845 --> 00:37:42,245
Speaker 2: that it was brightly colored, it had games, it had toys.

777
00:37:42,285 --> 00:37:44,805
Speaker 2: You know, we could get photos taken with the kids,

778
00:37:44,845 --> 00:37:47,485
Speaker 2: you know. So it was a really vibrant, you know,

779
00:37:48,165 --> 00:37:52,085
Speaker 2: place to be. And I and my ex husband had

780
00:37:52,085 --> 00:37:55,525
Speaker 2: issues as well, because, and understandably so, we had never

781
00:37:55,565 --> 00:37:58,805
Speaker 2: been involved in the prison system before. He thought that

782
00:37:58,845 --> 00:38:01,445
Speaker 2: the kids would come into the main compound and wander

783
00:38:01,485 --> 00:38:04,565
Speaker 2: around and have barbecues with the arm robbers, and that

784
00:38:04,645 --> 00:38:07,165
Speaker 2: I took offense with because everyone knew that you didn't

785
00:38:07,325 --> 00:38:10,045
Speaker 2: invite the armed robbers for the barbecues as they always

786
00:38:10,085 --> 00:38:15,245
Speaker 2: knocked off the meat. They seriously, so I wasn't having

787
00:38:15,285 --> 00:38:16,885
Speaker 2: a part of that. So I thought, we'll have to

788
00:38:16,885 --> 00:38:20,405
Speaker 2: write a book and educate people so that when, for instance,

789
00:38:20,445 --> 00:38:23,485
Speaker 2: my or someone that's going to prison, we can get

790
00:38:23,525 --> 00:38:27,205
Speaker 2: the book. Lawyers can give the book to the you know,

791
00:38:27,245 --> 00:38:28,845
Speaker 2: the mum or the dad. And it's a color reading

792
00:38:28,885 --> 00:38:31,325
Speaker 2: book and it steps through a visit that Shannon and

793
00:38:31,325 --> 00:38:34,085
Speaker 2: Sarah have with me, and it'll say the dog squads

794
00:38:34,085 --> 00:38:37,125
Speaker 2: come in, and the dogs are really friendly, but they're working,

795
00:38:37,165 --> 00:38:39,805
Speaker 2: so you can't touch them, so that when the children

796
00:38:39,925 --> 00:38:42,885
Speaker 2: come in they know what to expect. And then you know,

797
00:38:42,965 --> 00:38:45,565
Speaker 2: Shannon took five dollars in coins and went and got

798
00:38:45,565 --> 00:38:47,925
Speaker 2: some drinks from the drink machine, so we can let

799
00:38:48,005 --> 00:38:50,885
Speaker 2: them know what to expect, what's available, but in a

800
00:38:51,005 --> 00:38:53,845
Speaker 2: very friendly, in a very friendly way, and that and

801
00:38:53,885 --> 00:38:56,045
Speaker 2: color it in so the kids are part of this

802
00:38:56,365 --> 00:38:59,165
Speaker 2: interacting before they even get you know, get there. So

803
00:38:59,445 --> 00:39:01,285
Speaker 2: and it was one that was still in operation today.

804
00:39:01,965 --> 00:39:05,325
Speaker 2: It's in all the law firms and legal aids and whatnot.

805
00:39:05,325 --> 00:39:07,765
Speaker 2: It was a really, really really good thing to do.

806
00:39:08,045 --> 00:39:09,045
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it.

807
00:39:09,485 --> 00:39:12,525
Speaker 1: One of the photos that I liked most in your

808
00:39:12,525 --> 00:39:16,885
Speaker 1: book that I poured over was of your cell. Oh yeah,

809
00:39:17,165 --> 00:39:21,085
Speaker 1: can you just describe that because there's so much I

810
00:39:21,085 --> 00:39:24,325
Speaker 1: don't know myth around what a prisoner's cell might look like.

811
00:39:24,845 --> 00:39:27,885
Speaker 2: Well, the one that's in the book is in the Cottages,

812
00:39:27,925 --> 00:39:30,565
Speaker 2: but initially I was in the Romanian, which is a

813
00:39:30,565 --> 00:39:34,605
Speaker 2: single cell. Now, if I stood, I did it many times.

814
00:39:34,645 --> 00:39:37,445
Speaker 2: If I stood and walked to the length of my cell,

815
00:39:37,565 --> 00:39:40,485
Speaker 2: it's fifteen and a half of my feet long, and

816
00:39:40,605 --> 00:39:42,645
Speaker 2: I'm about a seven and a half shoe of.

817
00:39:42,645 --> 00:39:45,205
Speaker 1: Your feet, but not in the steps. Fifteen and a

818
00:39:45,245 --> 00:39:47,605
Speaker 1: half feet to heel.

819
00:39:47,685 --> 00:39:50,405
Speaker 2: Yep, So fifteen and a half long. And if I

820
00:39:50,405 --> 00:39:52,725
Speaker 2: stood in the middle of the cell and outstretched my

821
00:39:52,845 --> 00:39:54,885
Speaker 2: arms and just moved a little to the right and

822
00:39:54,925 --> 00:39:56,685
Speaker 2: the left, I could touch the walls on outher side.

823
00:39:56,765 --> 00:39:57,925
Speaker 1: Is it one person personal?

824
00:39:58,045 --> 00:40:01,245
Speaker 2: Yep, yep. Now in that room, you've then got a

825
00:40:01,285 --> 00:40:03,845
Speaker 2: bed on a slab of concrete, You've got a shower,

826
00:40:03,925 --> 00:40:05,845
Speaker 2: you've got a toilet, and you've got a desk. So

827
00:40:06,405 --> 00:40:10,085
Speaker 2: there's only about you know, three or four feet of

828
00:40:10,245 --> 00:40:13,005
Speaker 2: width that you can walk and then you've got you know,

829
00:40:13,925 --> 00:40:16,405
Speaker 2: you've got barred window, not barred so to speak. But

830
00:40:16,445 --> 00:40:21,245
Speaker 2: you know, reinforced windows that look out onto the razor wire.

831
00:40:21,285 --> 00:40:24,805
Speaker 2: It's quite a treat in the book when you move

832
00:40:24,885 --> 00:40:27,405
Speaker 2: up to the cabins, and therefore, because you can't I

833
00:40:27,445 --> 00:40:29,525
Speaker 2: was in that cell. Usually you're in that cell for

834
00:40:29,565 --> 00:40:32,045
Speaker 2: about two to three months. It's a settling cell. But

835
00:40:32,085 --> 00:40:33,805
Speaker 2: it was in the reminding. I was in it for

836
00:40:33,805 --> 00:40:36,725
Speaker 2: four day months because I was doing my work down

837
00:40:36,805 --> 00:40:40,885
Speaker 2: at the greeting, so I decided to stay there. I

838
00:40:40,885 --> 00:40:42,445
Speaker 2: was quite comfortable. I didn't need anything.

839
00:40:42,525 --> 00:40:42,805
Speaker 1: I was.

840
00:40:43,005 --> 00:40:45,805
Speaker 2: You know, when you move up to the cabins, because

841
00:40:45,845 --> 00:40:47,725
Speaker 2: you can't have a woman in a single cell for

842
00:40:47,725 --> 00:40:50,765
Speaker 2: twenty years. You know they'll go insane. You just can't

843
00:40:50,805 --> 00:40:53,005
Speaker 2: do it. So the cottages up on the top end

844
00:40:53,085 --> 00:40:55,965
Speaker 2: of the prison are for women doing long, long sentences.

845
00:40:56,605 --> 00:40:59,165
Speaker 2: And because I was a peer educator, and you know,

846
00:40:59,205 --> 00:41:01,685
Speaker 2: I was the youngest sort of nearly five years in

847
00:41:01,805 --> 00:41:03,165
Speaker 2: sentences up there.

848
00:41:04,205 --> 00:41:06,725
Speaker 1: You talk about the age of your sentence. So you're

849
00:41:06,805 --> 00:41:09,845
Speaker 1: four or five, so you're young and someone old if

850
00:41:09,845 --> 00:41:10,725
Speaker 1: they're twenty or third.

851
00:41:11,085 --> 00:41:12,845
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. So what happens is you go up

852
00:41:12,885 --> 00:41:16,285
Speaker 2: to the cabins and you'll have five bedrooms, three showers,

853
00:41:16,285 --> 00:41:19,845
Speaker 2: and a toilets at the back of the it's still

854
00:41:19,885 --> 00:41:21,085
Speaker 2: within the cabin, the cottage.

855
00:41:21,085 --> 00:41:22,165
Speaker 1: It's like a share house.

856
00:41:22,485 --> 00:41:25,485
Speaker 2: It's like a it's yeah, absolutely, but it's built out

857
00:41:25,525 --> 00:41:28,285
Speaker 2: a big best of blocks, concrete, best of blocks, and

858
00:41:28,325 --> 00:41:30,885
Speaker 2: the front and the back door are all that's locked

859
00:41:30,885 --> 00:41:33,285
Speaker 2: at night because you don't have toilets in your cells now,

860
00:41:34,285 --> 00:41:36,645
Speaker 2: so we're free to walk around the unit as much

861
00:41:36,685 --> 00:41:39,245
Speaker 2: as we want. And your cell look tiny, Yeah, it's

862
00:41:39,325 --> 00:41:40,925
Speaker 2: very ear but it was bigger than the one in

863
00:41:40,925 --> 00:41:41,685
Speaker 2: the reminding units.

864
00:41:41,725 --> 00:41:43,805
Speaker 1: So when you say you were free to walk around,

865
00:41:43,925 --> 00:41:46,525
Speaker 1: like I could not a slumber party though.

866
00:41:46,405 --> 00:41:48,245
Speaker 2: Oh no, I could walk out of my unit and

867
00:41:48,965 --> 00:41:51,045
Speaker 2: out of my cell and go out into the lounge

868
00:41:51,085 --> 00:41:52,845
Speaker 2: area or make a cup of coffee or whatnot. But

869
00:41:52,885 --> 00:41:55,445
Speaker 2: in a lockdown, so you can't. You'll make a coffee

870
00:41:55,485 --> 00:41:57,605
Speaker 2: in your cell and that door shut until the next morning,

871
00:41:57,685 --> 00:41:59,925
Speaker 2: you know. So there's a lot more movement up in

872
00:41:59,925 --> 00:42:02,165
Speaker 2: the cabins, but they have to be because you know,

873
00:42:02,405 --> 00:42:04,405
Speaker 2: you're up there for twenty years sort of thing. But

874
00:42:04,645 --> 00:42:07,605
Speaker 2: that brings its own set of complexities as well, because

875
00:42:08,085 --> 00:42:10,485
Speaker 2: women that are up there for two twenty years often

876
00:42:10,645 --> 00:42:13,005
Speaker 2: like to take over the cabin because you know, my

877
00:42:13,125 --> 00:42:14,965
Speaker 2: sentence is the longest start. You know, this is the

878
00:42:14,965 --> 00:42:17,165
Speaker 2: way I like the cabin to be run, and this

879
00:42:17,165 --> 00:42:19,445
Speaker 2: that and the other and blah blah blah. So and

880
00:42:19,485 --> 00:42:22,045
Speaker 2: then there's who do you live with? You know, you

881
00:42:22,045 --> 00:42:24,445
Speaker 2: you can't have someone in there that's incompatible because you

882
00:42:25,045 --> 00:42:28,085
Speaker 2: hopefully you'll be living with this person for maybe five years.

883
00:42:28,165 --> 00:42:29,565
Speaker 1: So who makes those decisions?

884
00:42:29,565 --> 00:42:32,885
Speaker 2: The women in the unit. Generally the officers will come

885
00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:34,885
Speaker 2: on board if we need that to do, but we

886
00:42:34,925 --> 00:42:36,365
Speaker 2: would generally scout our own.

887
00:42:36,645 --> 00:42:38,245
Speaker 1: Tell me about a day in the life.

888
00:42:38,485 --> 00:42:42,525
Speaker 2: Well, it's Groundhog Day. Every day seven forty five, the

889
00:42:42,565 --> 00:42:45,325
Speaker 2: compound puts out announcements to be up and ready dressed

890
00:42:45,325 --> 00:42:47,885
Speaker 2: and ready for muster. And muster is where the officers

891
00:42:47,925 --> 00:42:51,605
Speaker 2: go around every single cell or door or unit. I'll

892
00:42:51,645 --> 00:42:53,165
Speaker 2: open up the front door and come in, and you've

893
00:42:53,165 --> 00:42:54,485
Speaker 2: got to be standing by the door and they'll count

894
00:42:54,525 --> 00:42:56,405
Speaker 2: you one, two, three, four, five, one to three fo

895
00:42:56,685 --> 00:42:59,085
Speaker 2: and just to make sure no one's escaped. To a

896
00:42:59,125 --> 00:43:03,485
Speaker 2: head count. Every morning, every lunchtime, every middle of the afternoon,

897
00:43:03,565 --> 00:43:07,605
Speaker 2: and at night. There's four counts every day without fail.

898
00:43:08,405 --> 00:43:11,605
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter what's happen. There's a count at those.

899
00:43:11,605 --> 00:43:13,445
Speaker 1: Time, so you have to be up at seven forty five.

900
00:43:13,645 --> 00:43:14,525
Speaker 1: Where's breakfast?

901
00:43:15,245 --> 00:43:17,325
Speaker 2: Well, it depends, you know, if you're in the reminding

902
00:43:17,525 --> 00:43:19,685
Speaker 2: the girls will you know, from the kitchen, will bring

903
00:43:19,725 --> 00:43:21,605
Speaker 2: it down because you can't cook for yourself, so they'll

904
00:43:21,605 --> 00:43:24,205
Speaker 2: bring it down to the units. We could cook for

905
00:43:24,245 --> 00:43:26,685
Speaker 2: ourselves because it's a cabin so we'd order the food

906
00:43:26,685 --> 00:43:28,725
Speaker 2: from the kitchen on I think it was at the

907
00:43:28,765 --> 00:43:32,365
Speaker 2: time thirty three dollars per woman a week, and then

908
00:43:32,405 --> 00:43:34,765
Speaker 2: someone in the cottage does all the ordering. What's the

909
00:43:34,805 --> 00:43:38,845
Speaker 2: food like in jail, Well, the women, you know, I

910
00:43:38,845 --> 00:43:41,325
Speaker 2: think it's pretty cheap. You can do your own cooking

911
00:43:41,405 --> 00:43:44,685
Speaker 2: in the cabins, you can, yeah, but the women in

912
00:43:44,725 --> 00:43:47,405
Speaker 2: the kitchen prisoners as well, they do all the cooking

913
00:43:47,445 --> 00:43:49,285
Speaker 2: there as well, so they look after their own. And

914
00:43:49,565 --> 00:43:52,165
Speaker 2: it's actually pretty good. It's the meat and sort of

915
00:43:52,165 --> 00:43:54,085
Speaker 2: stuff that I think would be fairly cheap. It's not,

916
00:43:54,645 --> 00:43:57,325
Speaker 2: you know, but you get used to that. I wouldn't.

917
00:43:57,365 --> 00:44:00,925
Speaker 2: I would not. It wasn't bad food. And because it's

918
00:44:01,685 --> 00:44:05,925
Speaker 2: cooked by the girls who have at them, you know

919
00:44:05,925 --> 00:44:07,765
Speaker 2: at one stage been in the remand unit who are

920
00:44:07,765 --> 00:44:12,125
Speaker 2: being cooked for you know, it's damn good, I think, yeah.

921
00:44:11,285 --> 00:44:13,365
Speaker 1: And so you have breakfast, then.

922
00:44:13,245 --> 00:44:15,485
Speaker 2: What do you have? And then it's medication time. So

923
00:44:15,765 --> 00:44:19,005
Speaker 2: because so many women are on medication, whether it be

924
00:44:19,445 --> 00:44:25,525
Speaker 2: to ease their withdrawal from anxiety, depression, bipolar, you name it,

925
00:44:25,605 --> 00:44:29,565
Speaker 2: you know, just mental health issues, you know, for a.

926
00:44:29,525 --> 00:44:33,085
Speaker 1: Stasteril, medication, heart mads for that, older women, all kinds

927
00:44:33,085 --> 00:44:33,885
Speaker 1: of things, everything.

928
00:44:34,285 --> 00:44:37,525
Speaker 2: So you line up at that and you line up,

929
00:44:37,565 --> 00:44:40,285
Speaker 2: the nurse has your file, they'll give you the medication.

930
00:44:40,805 --> 00:44:43,285
Speaker 2: The officers check your mouth so that you haven't stored

931
00:44:43,325 --> 00:44:46,165
Speaker 2: it to sell to somebody else, which is often the case.

932
00:44:47,365 --> 00:44:49,205
Speaker 2: And that could go for quite some time. And then

933
00:44:49,245 --> 00:44:51,805
Speaker 2: you've got to go to work. And this is something

934
00:44:51,885 --> 00:44:58,085
Speaker 2: that I object to because prison and your sentence. One

935
00:44:58,125 --> 00:45:01,365
Speaker 2: can never ever trivialize a prison sentence. So I hear

936
00:45:01,405 --> 00:45:03,165
Speaker 2: people say, oh, she just got two years or she's

937
00:45:03,165 --> 00:45:06,085
Speaker 2: got three years. That is two or three years. But

938
00:45:06,205 --> 00:45:10,685
Speaker 2: what comes with that is huge. Everything else around you

939
00:45:10,765 --> 00:45:15,685
Speaker 2: becomes this big black hole that everything falls into relationships, children, family,

940
00:45:15,845 --> 00:45:19,045
Speaker 2: you know, careers, all that sort of stuff. So it's

941
00:45:19,125 --> 00:45:23,925
Speaker 2: not just plus you are exiled totally from the outside world,

942
00:45:24,085 --> 00:45:27,605
Speaker 2: you know, so that's fair enough. You know, and I think,

943
00:45:27,965 --> 00:45:30,325
Speaker 2: you know, you've got to sort of understand that that's

944
00:45:30,885 --> 00:45:33,805
Speaker 2: there's so much more than just a sentence, you know,

945
00:45:34,365 --> 00:45:36,365
Speaker 2: so when you're in prison, then I don't think it

946
00:45:36,605 --> 00:45:38,645
Speaker 2: should be a double sentence where you've got to work

947
00:45:38,765 --> 00:45:44,885
Speaker 2: for five dollars a day on menial silly tasks. To me,

948
00:45:45,285 --> 00:45:47,805
Speaker 2: it should be a program prison. As soon as that

949
00:45:47,845 --> 00:45:51,365
Speaker 2: women get their medication, they then go to a cooking

950
00:45:51,405 --> 00:45:54,765
Speaker 2: class because most women can't cook for their children, you know,

951
00:45:55,085 --> 00:45:56,645
Speaker 2: they've never cooked because they're drug addicts.

952
00:45:56,685 --> 00:45:59,405
Speaker 1: You know, so you're I want to ask you what

953
00:45:59,445 --> 00:46:00,925
Speaker 1: the menial silly tasks are.

954
00:46:01,485 --> 00:46:04,205
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing I think of was when when

955
00:46:04,205 --> 00:46:05,445
Speaker 2: I first got there, and I don't think they do

956
00:46:05,525 --> 00:46:07,205
Speaker 2: it now, but when I first got there, it was

957
00:46:07,245 --> 00:46:10,125
Speaker 2: sand in chairs. It was it was chairs that were

958
00:46:10,125 --> 00:46:12,605
Speaker 2: made from wood and we'd have to hand sand them

959
00:46:12,765 --> 00:46:14,525
Speaker 2: so that they could be sent off to Ikea or

960
00:46:14,525 --> 00:46:18,285
Speaker 2: whatever else. You know, you spend hours, you spend eight

961
00:46:18,325 --> 00:46:23,285
Speaker 2: hours handstanding a chair, you know, you know, stinking hot

962
00:46:23,325 --> 00:46:27,125
Speaker 2: shed for Ikea or whatever. You know, when you could

963
00:46:27,165 --> 00:46:31,005
Speaker 2: have all of these women instead doing a program on

964
00:46:31,605 --> 00:46:36,805
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, domestic violence, you know, parenting programs, how to

965
00:46:36,885 --> 00:46:39,885
Speaker 2: look after nutrition for themselves and their children that they've

966
00:46:39,925 --> 00:46:42,645
Speaker 2: never had and all that sort of stuff. Education, you

967
00:46:42,765 --> 00:46:45,445
Speaker 2: name it, so you know, but no, this is what

968
00:46:45,485 --> 00:46:49,485
Speaker 2: they do. The Anzac Day badges all women prisoners, all

969
00:46:49,485 --> 00:46:52,325
Speaker 2: female prisoners. So whenever you see an Anzac Day badge,

970
00:46:52,965 --> 00:46:57,125
Speaker 2: women sit in sheds that are about forty five degrees,

971
00:46:57,645 --> 00:47:00,325
Speaker 2: you know, because it's done over January. It starts in January,

972
00:47:00,445 --> 00:47:02,805
Speaker 2: the hottest time of the day. And all they do

973
00:47:03,005 --> 00:47:05,765
Speaker 2: is get the little cards, they get the pin and

974
00:47:05,805 --> 00:47:08,045
Speaker 2: they just pin it onto that card. That's all they

975
00:47:08,045 --> 00:47:10,645
Speaker 2: do for eight hours in the whole hottest temperatures possible.

976
00:47:11,045 --> 00:47:14,365
Speaker 2: It's it's great for the Anzac Day legacy, don't get

977
00:47:14,405 --> 00:47:16,925
Speaker 2: me wrong. I get that, but it's such a waste

978
00:47:16,925 --> 00:47:20,045
Speaker 2: when we have broken people in there, you know. You know,

979
00:47:20,165 --> 00:47:24,045
Speaker 2: even so you know, just just gardening jobs such as gardening,

980
00:47:24,125 --> 00:47:28,325
Speaker 2: you know, when there's there is any grass.

981
00:47:28,005 --> 00:47:29,565
Speaker 1: You could a degree. How did you do that?

982
00:47:30,525 --> 00:47:33,165
Speaker 2: My Master of Arts I did in prison. There was

983
00:47:34,205 --> 00:47:39,725
Speaker 2: a Japanese woman come in and she was doing her

984
00:47:39,765 --> 00:47:42,325
Speaker 2: Master of Arts through swimber And University and she said, well,

985
00:47:42,605 --> 00:47:44,565
Speaker 2: I want I want to continue to do it, and

986
00:47:44,645 --> 00:47:46,885
Speaker 2: she sort of fought her own little fight, and then

987
00:47:47,165 --> 00:47:49,765
Speaker 2: they agreed and said, well, okay, well why don't we

988
00:47:50,525 --> 00:47:52,445
Speaker 2: you know, why can't she do it? You know, let's

989
00:47:52,565 --> 00:47:54,085
Speaker 2: let's and we thought she was going to be there

990
00:47:54,125 --> 00:47:56,285
Speaker 2: a lot longer. So they came out and said, well,

991
00:47:56,325 --> 00:47:57,845
Speaker 2: you know, and then they picked four of us that

992
00:47:57,965 --> 00:48:00,485
Speaker 2: was sort of had a reasonable education and said, you know,

993
00:48:00,525 --> 00:48:02,045
Speaker 2: do you want to do it as well? It looked

994
00:48:02,045 --> 00:48:05,605
Speaker 2: like yep. So there were five of us. One sort

995
00:48:05,605 --> 00:48:10,085
Speaker 2: of did a year and got her had served I think,

996
00:48:10,125 --> 00:48:11,725
Speaker 2: you know. The rest of us went through and did

997
00:48:11,725 --> 00:48:15,205
Speaker 2: the full masters, and it was the first no one

998
00:48:15,245 --> 00:48:15,845
Speaker 2: thought we'd do it.

999
00:48:16,725 --> 00:48:18,565
Speaker 1: When did you study? When did you do all of that?

1000
00:48:18,605 --> 00:48:19,005
Speaker 2: At night?

1001
00:48:19,725 --> 00:48:19,885
Speaker 1: You know?

1002
00:48:19,965 --> 00:48:22,045
Speaker 2: That was the only time I could study because during

1003
00:48:22,045 --> 00:48:24,765
Speaker 2: the day I was I was literally my job was

1004
00:48:25,085 --> 00:48:28,525
Speaker 2: going from place, settling people in and you know, getting

1005
00:48:28,525 --> 00:48:31,645
Speaker 2: them clicked in with programs and writing their kids and

1006
00:48:31,645 --> 00:48:34,165
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. So and I really enjoyed that,

1007
00:48:34,325 --> 00:48:35,645
Speaker 2: you know, And so I do it at night or

1008
00:48:35,685 --> 00:48:39,285
Speaker 2: on the weekends, because because prison is a is it

1009
00:48:39,285 --> 00:48:42,285
Speaker 2: an operational sort of thing where where weekends it sort

1010
00:48:42,325 --> 00:48:45,325
Speaker 2: of closes down as well, all the programs, education, everything shut.

1011
00:48:45,405 --> 00:48:47,245
Speaker 2: So weekends you have a lot more time to be

1012
00:48:47,245 --> 00:48:49,125
Speaker 2: able to do that sort of stuff, you know. Plus

1013
00:48:49,245 --> 00:48:53,205
Speaker 2: you know when people say, you know, you know, prisoners

1014
00:48:53,245 --> 00:48:56,285
Speaker 2: get these benefits and whatnot, it's absolutely not. You know,

1015
00:48:56,525 --> 00:48:58,885
Speaker 2: I've got a hex step from my master's I did

1016
00:48:58,885 --> 00:49:01,325
Speaker 2: it exactly the same way as any other person out

1017
00:49:01,325 --> 00:49:03,885
Speaker 2: in the community. I didn't take anyone's position there. And

1018
00:49:03,925 --> 00:49:05,645
Speaker 2: I'll go as far as to say that we did it,

1019
00:49:06,045 --> 00:49:07,445
Speaker 2: you know, we did it Dan. Well, we didn't have

1020
00:49:07,485 --> 00:49:10,285
Speaker 2: the internet, you know, we were allowed to use the internet,

1021
00:49:10,365 --> 00:49:13,605
Speaker 2: so so our tutor used to bring out reams and

1022
00:49:13,685 --> 00:49:16,445
Speaker 2: rooms and rooms and rooms of paper. The problem with

1023
00:49:16,485 --> 00:49:18,365
Speaker 2: that was that we couldn't keep it in our cell

1024
00:49:18,445 --> 00:49:20,245
Speaker 2: for more than a week because it become a fire.

1025
00:49:20,285 --> 00:49:23,005
Speaker 2: Hasn't if that caught fire, the doors of double locked,

1026
00:49:23,045 --> 00:49:26,085
Speaker 2: you know. So so we had we had a great

1027
00:49:26,165 --> 00:49:28,645
Speaker 2: incentive to to to make sure that our homework was down.

1028
00:49:28,725 --> 00:49:31,965
Speaker 2: Each week we'd just miss out. So Swimberin brought the

1029
00:49:32,125 --> 00:49:36,365
Speaker 2: entire course to you. Yeah, absolutely, and we all passed

1030
00:49:36,405 --> 00:49:39,405
Speaker 2: and passed it very well actually, And then they brought

1031
00:49:39,445 --> 00:49:43,765
Speaker 2: the first graduation out to a prison photo of yes

1032
00:49:43,925 --> 00:49:46,325
Speaker 2: there was and look and they were humble enough to

1033
00:49:46,325 --> 00:49:50,805
Speaker 2: come out and so and so respectful of the fact

1034
00:49:50,805 --> 00:49:52,805
Speaker 2: that they come out. They were searched, they went through

1035
00:49:52,845 --> 00:49:55,685
Speaker 2: the whole procedure. You know, these are professors and vice

1036
00:49:55,725 --> 00:49:58,965
Speaker 2: chancellors and whatnot. They brought all the regalia out for us,

1037
00:49:59,005 --> 00:50:02,125
Speaker 2: like at the robes, and yes, a lot of officers

1038
00:50:02,165 --> 00:50:03,365
Speaker 2: came in on their days off.

1039
00:50:03,405 --> 00:50:03,565
Speaker 1: You know.

1040
00:50:03,645 --> 00:50:06,565
Speaker 2: It was fantastic. The women in prison were just were

1041
00:50:06,645 --> 00:50:08,405
Speaker 2: just over the moon for us because it was like,

1042
00:50:08,445 --> 00:50:11,685
Speaker 2: you know, someone succeeded. You know that that's what they want,

1043
00:50:11,805 --> 00:50:13,805
Speaker 2: you know, they want to see that people can actually

1044
00:50:14,725 --> 00:50:17,885
Speaker 2: really make a difference. You know, maybe it'll be them.

1045
00:50:18,045 --> 00:50:20,285
Speaker 2: So it was, it was, It was fantastic. It was

1046
00:50:20,325 --> 00:50:23,165
Speaker 2: really good. The Japanese woman was released not long after

1047
00:50:23,205 --> 00:50:26,725
Speaker 2: we all got this going anyway, But and I think

1048
00:50:26,725 --> 00:50:29,525
Speaker 2: she can finish hers as well. I'm not quite sure.

1049
00:50:30,605 --> 00:50:33,685
Speaker 1: So you spent almost five years in prison, Your girls

1050
00:50:33,685 --> 00:50:37,805
Speaker 1: were now ten and twelve, Yeah, something around that age.

1051
00:50:38,325 --> 00:50:41,205
Speaker 1: It was time to get out. You must have been elated.

1052
00:50:41,605 --> 00:50:43,525
Speaker 2: No, No, I wasn't.

1053
00:50:43,685 --> 00:50:43,845
Speaker 1: No.

1054
00:50:44,325 --> 00:50:46,885
Speaker 2: In fact, I cried the closer I got to leaving,

1055
00:50:47,605 --> 00:50:49,245
Speaker 2: the more frightened I got. And I didn't. I actually

1056
00:50:49,245 --> 00:50:51,805
Speaker 2: went to the general manager and said, can you stop this,

1057
00:50:52,685 --> 00:50:54,285
Speaker 2: can you can you just keep me here, you know?

1058
00:50:54,405 --> 00:50:56,965
Speaker 2: And he was like, what never, No one has ever

1059
00:50:57,005 --> 00:50:59,725
Speaker 2: said that to you before. And I burst into tears

1060
00:50:59,765 --> 00:51:05,325
Speaker 2: because he'd invested so much in me that I felt

1061
00:51:05,365 --> 00:51:08,485
Speaker 2: like I was betraying him by leaving, and I'd miss him.

1062
00:51:08,525 --> 00:51:11,285
Speaker 2: He was a genuinely lovely man that had a really

1063
00:51:11,325 --> 00:51:14,285
Speaker 2: good heart, was a good leader, and I just didn't

1064
00:51:14,325 --> 00:51:15,925
Speaker 2: want to go. You know, how was the place going

1065
00:51:16,005 --> 00:51:17,005
Speaker 2: to survive without me?

1066
00:51:17,205 --> 00:51:17,405
Speaker 1: You know?

1067
00:51:17,645 --> 00:51:20,325
Speaker 2: It was literally that's how I felt, you know. And

1068
00:51:20,365 --> 00:51:22,765
Speaker 2: I was in a place where I was respected, I had,

1069
00:51:23,965 --> 00:51:26,445
Speaker 2: I earned a lot of my integrity back. I matted,

1070
00:51:26,605 --> 00:51:29,765
Speaker 2: I had statue, and then I was going, yeah, and

1071
00:51:30,005 --> 00:51:32,445
Speaker 2: I was going out, you know, because just before I

1072
00:51:32,485 --> 00:51:35,085
Speaker 2: got out, the girls came out and visited it. Because

1073
00:51:35,125 --> 00:51:37,725
Speaker 2: I was sort of like, Mumy's going home, thinking, you

1074
00:51:37,765 --> 00:51:40,485
Speaker 2: know the world and yeah, the world had stopped for

1075
00:51:40,565 --> 00:51:42,085
Speaker 2: me in there, but it had gone on for them.

1076
00:51:42,605 --> 00:51:44,685
Speaker 2: I just thought that they were just sitting doing the

1077
00:51:44,685 --> 00:51:47,085
Speaker 2: same thing. Can't wait, can't wait. They came out and went,

1078
00:51:47,805 --> 00:51:50,725
Speaker 2: we don't get mad, mum. You know, I'm like and

1079
00:51:50,805 --> 00:51:53,005
Speaker 2: they said, now we don't want to live with you

1080
00:51:53,525 --> 00:51:59,805
Speaker 2: when you come home and and I actually literally physically

1081
00:51:59,805 --> 00:52:01,245
Speaker 2: felt i'd been kicked in the stomach.

1082
00:52:01,325 --> 00:52:02,405
Speaker 1: I feel like I just got.

1083
00:52:03,845 --> 00:52:05,405
Speaker 2: And I was like, and I but I had to

1084
00:52:05,405 --> 00:52:08,405
Speaker 2: hold it together because I had to not just I

1085
00:52:08,445 --> 00:52:11,205
Speaker 2: had to really really listen to what they were saying.

1086
00:52:11,285 --> 00:52:13,885
Speaker 2: You know, this is huge for them. And then I

1087
00:52:13,925 --> 00:52:17,725
Speaker 2: realized they're frightened that I'm coming home, you know, And

1088
00:52:17,765 --> 00:52:19,845
Speaker 2: it was it was this so I didn't want to

1089
00:52:19,885 --> 00:52:20,725
Speaker 2: go home even more.

1090
00:52:21,245 --> 00:52:24,285
Speaker 1: You know when you say frightened, frightened of the unknown,

1091
00:52:24,605 --> 00:52:25,765
Speaker 1: of well.

1092
00:52:25,605 --> 00:52:28,245
Speaker 2: Of the of the instability. Is m I'm going to

1093
00:52:28,285 --> 00:52:30,725
Speaker 2: do this again? Is she going to you know, end

1094
00:52:30,805 --> 00:52:33,445
Speaker 2: up in prison and away from our lives again? You know?

1095
00:52:33,925 --> 00:52:36,205
Speaker 2: God knows what their father was saying, I don't know, you.

1096
00:52:36,165 --> 00:52:39,125
Speaker 1: Know, it was it's split up by this, oh yep.

1097
00:52:40,205 --> 00:52:42,845
Speaker 2: And you know, so I didn't know, but I just

1098
00:52:42,885 --> 00:52:45,445
Speaker 2: had to understand that, you know, they were frightened because

1099
00:52:45,445 --> 00:52:48,925
Speaker 2: they didn't trust me, and and I was just you know,

1100
00:52:49,085 --> 00:52:51,205
Speaker 2: going along thinking here we are, you know, and then

1101
00:52:51,285 --> 00:52:54,045
Speaker 2: and then boom, and I was like, okay, all right,

1102
00:52:54,285 --> 00:52:56,925
Speaker 2: I've got to I've got to actually find a place

1103
00:52:56,965 --> 00:52:59,445
Speaker 2: for this to sit. Because when I got out, the

1104
00:52:59,445 --> 00:53:01,965
Speaker 2: biggest problem of getting out is where do I fit now?

1105
00:53:02,445 --> 00:53:05,845
Speaker 2: Where do I you know? And unfortunately the community still

1106
00:53:05,885 --> 00:53:08,005
Speaker 2: believe that a lot of people in the community still

1107
00:53:08,005 --> 00:53:10,485
Speaker 2: believe that even though you've gotten out of prison, you

1108
00:53:10,605 --> 00:53:13,205
Speaker 2: still have to serve time. You know, you're still going

1109
00:53:13,245 --> 00:53:15,125
Speaker 2: to be judge. You're going to be held accountable for

1110
00:53:15,165 --> 00:53:16,925
Speaker 2: that crime for your rest of your life. And I'm

1111
00:53:16,965 --> 00:53:20,525
Speaker 2: the first one to say absolutely not. You know, you pay.

1112
00:53:21,005 --> 00:53:23,365
Speaker 2: We have to have a judicial system in our community

1113
00:53:23,365 --> 00:53:25,205
Speaker 2: where you pay for your crime and then you move on,

1114
00:53:25,725 --> 00:53:28,325
Speaker 2: you know, And that's how it has to be. Otherwise

1115
00:53:28,805 --> 00:53:30,685
Speaker 2: we need to just get people to go before the

1116
00:53:30,765 --> 00:53:32,525
Speaker 2: judge get tried and take them at the back of

1117
00:53:32,565 --> 00:53:33,365
Speaker 2: the court and shoot them.

1118
00:53:33,765 --> 00:53:36,485
Speaker 1: I would have thought straight away, Okay, come on, carry

1119
00:53:36,525 --> 00:53:38,485
Speaker 1: be a corrections officer and get back in there.

1120
00:53:38,805 --> 00:53:41,765
Speaker 2: I've got a criminal record. I'd love to do that. No.

1121
00:53:42,285 --> 00:53:43,965
Speaker 1: And the other thing too, Can you work in the

1122
00:53:44,005 --> 00:53:45,245
Speaker 1: prison in any capacity?

1123
00:53:45,325 --> 00:53:46,845
Speaker 2: No? No, not with a criminal record?

1124
00:53:47,205 --> 00:53:48,165
Speaker 1: But that's crazy.

1125
00:53:48,325 --> 00:53:51,205
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know I would. I would love to,

1126
00:53:51,445 --> 00:53:55,285
Speaker 2: there's no doubt about that. But there's also different levels

1127
00:53:55,285 --> 00:53:57,845
Speaker 2: of that as well, you know, because because what I

1128
00:53:57,925 --> 00:54:00,605
Speaker 2: was doing, I was one of them. When we went

1129
00:54:00,645 --> 00:54:03,285
Speaker 2: back and filmed Australian story. We actually went into the

1130
00:54:03,325 --> 00:54:05,485
Speaker 2: prison and as soon as I appeared, some of the

1131
00:54:05,485 --> 00:54:07,445
Speaker 2: girls in the in the medical center, we're going carry

1132
00:54:07,485 --> 00:54:09,565
Speaker 2: Can you pop down at a five and see me? Can you?

1133
00:54:09,925 --> 00:54:12,165
Speaker 2: And I couldn't even go near them because I'm now

1134
00:54:12,165 --> 00:54:15,085
Speaker 2: a civilian, So I and they're looking thinking why are

1135
00:54:15,125 --> 00:54:16,445
Speaker 2: you coming down the end of the hold of time

1136
00:54:17,645 --> 00:54:19,805
Speaker 2: because I was now not one of them. So I'm

1137
00:54:19,845 --> 00:54:22,165
Speaker 2: sort of trying to go and I'm thinking, he's God,

1138
00:54:22,245 --> 00:54:24,005
Speaker 2: she doesn't even know that I'm not even here. I'm

1139
00:54:24,045 --> 00:54:26,485
Speaker 2: not even a prisoner anymore. So it was there's that

1140
00:54:26,565 --> 00:54:30,325
Speaker 2: disconnection again. But that wouldn't take that wouldn't take long.

1141
00:54:30,605 --> 00:54:33,645
Speaker 2: You know, it just depends that corrections might see that,

1142
00:54:33,685 --> 00:54:35,885
Speaker 2: you know, am I on their side or on my

1143
00:54:36,005 --> 00:54:39,125
Speaker 2: own correction side sort of thing? You know, there's an

1144
00:54:39,205 --> 00:54:40,085
Speaker 2: allegiance there.

1145
00:54:40,445 --> 00:54:42,725
Speaker 1: So I don't know what happened after you got out.

1146
00:54:43,485 --> 00:54:47,405
Speaker 1: I had the world changed much?

1147
00:54:48,085 --> 00:54:52,885
Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. It was. We

1148
00:54:53,045 --> 00:54:56,245
Speaker 2: had the barbecue the day before, you know, that's that's

1149
00:54:56,285 --> 00:54:58,365
Speaker 2: what you do when you leave prison and everyone gets together.

1150
00:54:58,405 --> 00:54:59,925
Speaker 2: And I'd made a point of making sure that the

1151
00:54:59,965 --> 00:55:03,765
Speaker 2: officers were invited as well, because and and of course

1152
00:55:03,805 --> 00:55:05,925
Speaker 2: people are, well, I'm not going, and I'm like, fair enough,

1153
00:55:05,965 --> 00:55:09,085
Speaker 2: but you know, they've been here longer than you have, sweetheart,

1154
00:55:09,125 --> 00:55:12,405
Speaker 2: so they're coming, you know. And and then we walked

1155
00:55:12,445 --> 00:55:15,245
Speaker 2: to the gate and off you go. So you walk

1156
00:55:15,325 --> 00:55:19,845
Speaker 2: to the gate, you know, crying of leaving this community.

1157
00:55:19,885 --> 00:55:21,725
Speaker 2: You walk through and get into your civilian clothes and

1158
00:55:21,725 --> 00:55:24,045
Speaker 2: outside into your family's arms and you and you're smiling.

1159
00:55:24,085 --> 00:55:24,205
Speaker 1: You know.

1160
00:55:24,325 --> 00:55:26,965
Speaker 2: It's it's a very difficult thing. And has that had

1161
00:55:26,965 --> 00:55:29,765
Speaker 2: a great year most a couple of my sisters and

1162
00:55:29,885 --> 00:55:33,485
Speaker 2: nephews and odds and odds, you know, not your girls.

1163
00:55:34,525 --> 00:55:36,725
Speaker 2: We'd had issues with that. Marke's husband and I and

1164
00:55:36,885 --> 00:55:38,925
Speaker 2: and I'd waited, you know, they were the pot of

1165
00:55:39,045 --> 00:55:40,565
Speaker 2: gold at the end of the rainbow, and here I

1166
00:55:40,605 --> 00:55:42,165
Speaker 2: was at the end of the rainbow and they weren't there.

1167
00:55:43,005 --> 00:55:45,645
Speaker 2: He felt that it would be best that I saw

1168
00:55:45,645 --> 00:55:48,045
Speaker 2: them a couple of days after I got out, and

1169
00:55:48,365 --> 00:55:51,845
Speaker 2: you know, again I had no input into that, so

1170
00:55:51,845 --> 00:55:54,085
Speaker 2: so fitting in with them was a was a big thing.

1171
00:55:54,125 --> 00:55:57,725
Speaker 2: I remember going uh and seeing them day three. The

1172
00:55:57,805 --> 00:55:59,085
Speaker 2: other thing, too, is that when I met all of

1173
00:55:59,125 --> 00:56:02,565
Speaker 2: my family too, there were a lot of people that that,

1174
00:56:04,285 --> 00:56:06,205
Speaker 2: you know, I hadn't seen for a little while. I

1175
00:56:06,325 --> 00:56:09,005
Speaker 2: wasn't so much to that, but they all had people

1176
00:56:09,045 --> 00:56:11,205
Speaker 2: were talking talking about these people and these kids and

1177
00:56:11,245 --> 00:56:13,525
Speaker 2: these and these there were new members of the family,

1178
00:56:13,565 --> 00:56:15,965
Speaker 2: Like I was the I was the odd one out

1179
00:56:15,965 --> 00:56:17,365
Speaker 2: of my own family. I didn't even know who they

1180
00:56:17,365 --> 00:56:20,365
Speaker 2: were talking about. She married, she married, you know, your nephew,

1181
00:56:20,685 --> 00:56:24,445
Speaker 2: you know, and yeah, and that's then they had a baby. Yeah,

1182
00:56:24,445 --> 00:56:27,565
Speaker 2: and you know, so the dynamics of the family had

1183
00:56:27,645 --> 00:56:29,885
Speaker 2: changed as well. You know. So then when I saw

1184
00:56:29,885 --> 00:56:33,325
Speaker 2: the girls, I remember thinking, we went to Chanside Park

1185
00:56:33,605 --> 00:56:35,965
Speaker 2: shopping center, and the girls were like, they were excited,

1186
00:56:35,965 --> 00:56:37,365
Speaker 2: but they were nervous and they were you know, and

1187
00:56:37,405 --> 00:56:40,125
Speaker 2: I didn't want to I didn't know how to act. Actually,

1188
00:56:40,325 --> 00:56:42,965
Speaker 2: I'd lost on my parenting skills. I wasn't an authority

1189
00:56:42,965 --> 00:56:45,485
Speaker 2: in their life by any streage. So when we when

1190
00:56:45,525 --> 00:56:49,765
Speaker 2: we got there, you know, they started they started arguing,

1191
00:56:49,925 --> 00:56:52,085
Speaker 2: and I did not know, for the life of me,

1192
00:56:52,285 --> 00:56:53,885
Speaker 2: how to handle this. I didn't know what to do.

1193
00:56:53,925 --> 00:56:56,085
Speaker 2: They were annoying the hell out of me because I

1194
00:56:56,165 --> 00:56:58,365
Speaker 2: wasn't used to little kids arguing around me. I was

1195
00:56:58,445 --> 00:57:01,085
Speaker 2: used to this tough, you know environment where you turn

1196
00:57:01,085 --> 00:57:04,885
Speaker 2: around and go shut up, go away, you know. So

1197
00:57:04,885 --> 00:57:06,605
Speaker 2: so it was just so it was. And when they

1198
00:57:06,685 --> 00:57:08,085
Speaker 2: used to come and see me on a visit, it

1199
00:57:08,085 --> 00:57:10,205
Speaker 2: was always best behavior because all loved each other. And

1200
00:57:10,805 --> 00:57:12,525
Speaker 2: this was so different, and I didn't know what to do.

1201
00:57:13,125 --> 00:57:15,765
Speaker 2: I couldn't be I've been out four hours or something

1202
00:57:16,005 --> 00:57:18,245
Speaker 2: with the girls anyway, you know, start yelling at them

1203
00:57:18,365 --> 00:57:21,565
Speaker 2: or it was just horrible. I didn't know what to do.

1204
00:57:21,645 --> 00:57:25,365
Speaker 2: And then then, you know, I remember there were people

1205
00:57:26,165 --> 00:57:29,285
Speaker 2: sitting around this table and they were talking about things like,

1206
00:57:29,725 --> 00:57:31,405
Speaker 2: you know, don't forget we're going to have that barbecue

1207
00:57:31,405 --> 00:57:33,485
Speaker 2: on Wednesday, don't stop at Bunnings and pick up the

1208
00:57:33,485 --> 00:57:36,485
Speaker 2: stuff for the law mar and and I remember sitting

1209
00:57:36,485 --> 00:57:40,245
Speaker 2: there thinking, God, I don't even I don't. That's that's

1210
00:57:40,245 --> 00:57:42,445
Speaker 2: someone living a life. I don't have that anymore. I

1211
00:57:42,485 --> 00:57:46,125
Speaker 2: don't I don't have friends, and I don't know anyone

1212
00:57:46,165 --> 00:57:47,765
Speaker 2: that will go to a barbecue. I've got no need

1213
00:57:47,805 --> 00:57:49,605
Speaker 2: to go to Bunnings because I've got nothing, you know.

1214
00:57:49,925 --> 00:57:51,845
Speaker 2: And I remembered how and I remember thinking I was

1215
00:57:51,925 --> 00:57:55,165
Speaker 2: like a ghost walking around this the outside of this place,

1216
00:57:55,205 --> 00:57:57,125
Speaker 2: because I didn't fit in anywhere.

1217
00:57:57,125 --> 00:58:00,485
Speaker 1: I knew, had every chance, Like you absolutely educated, you

1218
00:58:00,525 --> 00:58:02,045
Speaker 1: weren't on drugs, you weren't.

1219
00:58:02,445 --> 00:58:04,125
Speaker 2: I walked out to the job in the university.

1220
00:58:04,205 --> 00:58:07,565
Speaker 1: Were educated, you're white, you were all of those things.

1221
00:58:08,165 --> 00:58:10,805
Speaker 2: And I walked out to job in university, you know,

1222
00:58:11,045 --> 00:58:13,965
Speaker 2: which is yeah, you know, I had I had a job.

1223
00:58:14,765 --> 00:58:15,925
Speaker 2: I was off at a job while I was in

1224
00:58:15,925 --> 00:58:18,765
Speaker 2: prison from swim Burn after I did my masters. So

1225
00:58:18,765 --> 00:58:21,445
Speaker 2: so I had everything, but I just couldn't find where

1226
00:58:21,485 --> 00:58:23,725
Speaker 2: I fit. Where do I fit? And if you don't fit,

1227
00:58:23,765 --> 00:58:29,325
Speaker 2: it's just fundamentally the the who you are, where do

1228
00:58:29,325 --> 00:58:33,365
Speaker 2: you belong? You know. It was just so so goddamn

1229
00:58:33,405 --> 00:58:36,565
Speaker 2: difficult trying to try trying to work that out. And then,

1230
00:58:36,645 --> 00:58:39,125
Speaker 2: you know, the f POS machines, I've got a lot

1231
00:58:39,125 --> 00:58:42,285
Speaker 2: of pride, the f POS machines were different. So I

1232
00:58:42,365 --> 00:58:45,805
Speaker 2: was looking over this woman's shoulder trying to see how

1233
00:58:45,845 --> 00:58:48,205
Speaker 2: she was doing it, and she actually turned around and

1234
00:58:48,605 --> 00:58:50,005
Speaker 2: sort of had to go with me because she thought

1235
00:58:50,045 --> 00:58:53,045
Speaker 2: I was trying. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, terrific.

1236
00:58:53,085 --> 00:58:54,965
Speaker 2: I didn't even think of that. You know, I'm going

1237
00:58:55,045 --> 00:58:57,325
Speaker 2: to be back into prison within three days, you know.

1238
00:58:58,525 --> 00:59:00,525
Speaker 2: And I was like no, I didn't want to say

1239
00:59:00,605 --> 00:59:04,885
Speaker 2: I don't know how to use it, because totally it

1240
00:59:04,925 --> 00:59:07,325
Speaker 2: was just so it was it was just it was

1241
00:59:07,405 --> 00:59:09,605
Speaker 2: so good of Harden. The one time I did was

1242
00:59:09,605 --> 00:59:13,805
Speaker 2: able to assert myself or who I'd become was when

1243
00:59:13,805 --> 00:59:16,205
Speaker 2: we were sitting down having lunch with the kids and

1244
00:59:16,245 --> 00:59:18,245
Speaker 2: we're just sitting having great time, and this woman walked

1245
00:59:18,325 --> 00:59:21,925
Speaker 2: up and said, yeah, no, there are you know, here

1246
00:59:21,925 --> 00:59:23,925
Speaker 2: are you going, and then made a point of just

1247
00:59:23,965 --> 00:59:26,285
Speaker 2: ignoring me, even though she knew who I was. Because

1248
00:59:26,325 --> 00:59:28,085
Speaker 2: everyone knew that I was obviously out of prison. It

1249
00:59:28,125 --> 00:59:29,845
Speaker 2: was a big deal and everyone wanted a part of

1250
00:59:29,845 --> 00:59:32,285
Speaker 2: the show. And she went to walk off, so I

1251
00:59:32,725 --> 00:59:36,165
Speaker 2: sort of said the just there from when I went

1252
00:59:36,205 --> 00:59:37,965
Speaker 2: over to it, and I said to her, I don't

1253
00:59:38,005 --> 00:59:40,445
Speaker 2: know who you are, I said, and more of the point,

1254
00:59:40,445 --> 00:59:43,405
Speaker 2: I don't care, I said, but they are my daughters

1255
00:59:43,445 --> 00:59:45,205
Speaker 2: and I am their mother, and you won't change it.

1256
00:59:45,245 --> 00:59:47,085
Speaker 2: So next time I do see you, if you want

1257
00:59:47,125 --> 00:59:49,085
Speaker 2: to speak to my children, you will speak to me first,

1258
00:59:49,485 --> 00:59:52,005
Speaker 2: or don't approach us at all. And that's one thing

1259
00:59:52,885 --> 00:59:54,405
Speaker 2: that I have an issue with is that if you

1260
00:59:54,645 --> 00:59:56,125
Speaker 2: have been to prison and you've done your time and

1261
00:59:56,205 --> 00:59:58,085
Speaker 2: you've done, you know, and I've spoken it over three

1262
00:59:58,205 --> 01:00:01,645
Speaker 2: hundred maybe four hundred events in the community raising awareness.

1263
01:00:01,685 --> 01:00:05,005
Speaker 2: I've never changed, you know, it's my being able to

1264
01:00:05,005 --> 01:00:07,645
Speaker 2: give back to the community and whatnot. I didn't appeal

1265
01:00:07,725 --> 01:00:10,445
Speaker 2: my sentence. I did it all in maximum security, I did,

1266
01:00:10,645 --> 01:00:13,445
Speaker 2: you know, I assisted the community there, so I think

1267
01:00:13,445 --> 01:00:15,725
Speaker 2: that I've done what I needed to do. So to

1268
01:00:15,765 --> 01:00:19,845
Speaker 2: have then people feel that they can actually take ownership

1269
01:00:19,845 --> 01:00:25,725
Speaker 2: over my daughters is a huge trigger for me. So

1270
01:00:26,085 --> 01:00:28,365
Speaker 2: you know, I needed to set that straight, you know,

1271
01:00:28,685 --> 01:00:30,925
Speaker 2: because while I'm wandering through trying to work out where

1272
01:00:30,965 --> 01:00:32,525
Speaker 2: I fit in life, the one thing I do know

1273
01:00:32,645 --> 01:00:34,605
Speaker 2: is that they are my daughters and someone I've never

1274
01:00:34,645 --> 01:00:38,605
Speaker 2: met before. You know, I don't how long did.

1275
01:00:38,525 --> 01:00:41,445
Speaker 1: It take to re establish your relationship with the girls?

1276
01:00:41,685 --> 01:00:42,885
Speaker 2: Five years?

1277
01:00:43,525 --> 01:00:46,325
Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, as long as you were aware it took

1278
01:00:46,365 --> 01:00:47,325
Speaker 1: that long again.

1279
01:00:47,365 --> 01:00:51,125
Speaker 2: And you know, and sometimes, you know, sometimes just to

1280
01:00:51,165 --> 01:00:54,365
Speaker 2: get settled back into the community is the same amount

1281
01:00:54,405 --> 01:00:56,125
Speaker 2: of time that you've been in prison. It takes that.

1282
01:00:56,485 --> 01:00:59,685
Speaker 2: It's such a big thing to you know, particular when

1283
01:00:59,685 --> 01:01:01,245
Speaker 2: you know that most people don't want you to be

1284
01:01:01,325 --> 01:01:03,845
Speaker 2: part of the community, you know, just buying large not

1285
01:01:03,885 --> 01:01:06,725
Speaker 2: maybe individually, but buy in large, you know. So, and

1286
01:01:06,765 --> 01:01:09,205
Speaker 2: that's what I always say, is the more the community,

1287
01:01:09,485 --> 01:01:13,045
Speaker 2: every woman gets out of prison, you know. And and

1288
01:01:13,085 --> 01:01:15,525
Speaker 2: again they're broken women, you know. My idea is that

1289
01:01:15,565 --> 01:01:19,205
Speaker 2: they come into prison, we work on them because they're

1290
01:01:19,245 --> 01:01:21,685
Speaker 2: doing their sentence, they're doing what has been told by

1291
01:01:21,725 --> 01:01:25,205
Speaker 2: the judge, by the community, by the judicial system. They're

1292
01:01:25,205 --> 01:01:27,805
Speaker 2: doing exactly that. So while they're in there, let's make

1293
01:01:27,805 --> 01:01:30,005
Speaker 2: it a win win situation and start working on these

1294
01:01:30,005 --> 01:01:33,245
Speaker 2: women so that when they leave, they come out better

1295
01:01:33,285 --> 01:01:35,445
Speaker 2: people than when they went in, and maybe a little

1296
01:01:35,445 --> 01:01:36,965
Speaker 2: bit more healed because they're going to come and live

1297
01:01:37,005 --> 01:01:40,245
Speaker 2: next door to you or you know, somebody else or whatnot,

1298
01:01:40,245 --> 01:01:43,325
Speaker 2: and then they can become productive members of the community.

1299
01:01:43,685 --> 01:01:45,965
Speaker 2: It's a win win situation as far as I'm concerned.

1300
01:01:46,005 --> 01:01:48,445
Speaker 2: And you invest in these people because they're not most

1301
01:01:48,485 --> 01:01:52,125
Speaker 2: of them are not master criminals, you know, because when

1302
01:01:52,125 --> 01:01:56,165
Speaker 2: they come out, if the community says, actually, we don't

1303
01:01:56,205 --> 01:01:58,725
Speaker 2: want you, even though you've done your time, why on

1304
01:01:58,805 --> 01:02:02,485
Speaker 2: earth would they bother abiding by the community's laws. If

1305
01:02:02,485 --> 01:02:05,445
Speaker 2: they're not part of that community. Why feel an allegiance

1306
01:02:05,485 --> 01:02:07,765
Speaker 2: to do the right thing? And that, you know, it's

1307
01:02:07,885 --> 01:02:11,965
Speaker 2: just such a simple, a simple process about particularly about

1308
01:02:12,005 --> 01:02:15,245
Speaker 2: women in prison, because you know, most of them, you know,

1309
01:02:15,925 --> 01:02:19,525
Speaker 2: just need you know, there's no point putting people in

1310
01:02:19,565 --> 01:02:22,205
Speaker 2: prison and then just letting them sit there and then

1311
01:02:22,365 --> 01:02:25,045
Speaker 2: expect a different outcome when they come out. That's just ludicrous.

1312
01:02:25,085 --> 01:02:29,485
Speaker 2: That is just stupid. And unfortunately politics is that way

1313
01:02:29,525 --> 01:02:32,125
Speaker 2: a lot. You know, no one wants to invest, will

1314
01:02:32,165 --> 01:02:34,365
Speaker 2: just build more prisons. Well, that's just ridiculous.

1315
01:02:34,685 --> 01:02:36,685
Speaker 1: Your girls are in their twenties now.

1316
01:02:36,565 --> 01:02:41,405
Speaker 2: Sarah's twenty one tomorrow and Channel's twenty two. Fabulous, absolutely fabulous.

1317
01:02:41,445 --> 01:02:44,245
Speaker 2: I'm very very proud of the girls and they you know,

1318
01:02:44,365 --> 01:02:46,405
Speaker 2: and they're very proud of me. You know, they've told

1319
01:02:46,445 --> 01:02:50,045
Speaker 2: me so. And that's the one thing that I that's

1320
01:02:50,085 --> 01:02:51,645
Speaker 2: the one thing that I wanted. You know what, other

1321
01:02:51,685 --> 01:02:53,965
Speaker 2: people and and other people are going to have their opinions,

1322
01:02:54,005 --> 01:02:56,885
Speaker 2: and I absolutely respect that that's not an issue. But

1323
01:02:56,925 --> 01:02:58,845
Speaker 2: that's the girls that I care about, you know, so,

1324
01:03:00,085 --> 01:03:02,885
Speaker 2: you know, so it's been a long hard you know,

1325
01:03:02,965 --> 01:03:07,365
Speaker 2: I've had to be really really patient with with finding

1326
01:03:07,405 --> 01:03:11,245
Speaker 2: a place with them again enforcing you know this, you know,

1327
01:03:11,365 --> 01:03:14,845
Speaker 2: mummy's time. Let's just disrupt their whole entire life so

1328
01:03:15,405 --> 01:03:18,045
Speaker 2: I couldn't be prouder of the girls. You know, they're

1329
01:03:18,125 --> 01:03:21,165
Speaker 2: just they're wonderful, good hearted, law abiding citizens.

1330
01:03:22,285 --> 01:03:24,845
Speaker 1: Carry They're so lucky to have you, as we're all

1331
01:03:24,885 --> 01:03:28,565
Speaker 1: the women in prison who benefited from your attention when

1332
01:03:28,565 --> 01:03:32,405
Speaker 1: you were there. What an extraordinary story, and I feel

1333
01:03:32,405 --> 01:03:33,445
Speaker 1: like I've learned so much.

1334
01:03:33,805 --> 01:03:36,725
Speaker 2: Thank you. Well that's much that's important, you know, and

1335
01:03:36,765 --> 01:03:39,165
Speaker 2: I think people can change the way they think about

1336
01:03:39,165 --> 01:03:41,685
Speaker 2: things if they know how it actually works.

1337
01:03:42,405 --> 01:03:44,965
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this episode of No Filter.

1338
01:03:45,485 --> 01:03:49,045
Speaker 1: Next week for a complete change of pace, I am

1339
01:03:49,085 --> 01:03:53,005
Speaker 1: going to speak to a woman who life hacks her period.

1340
01:03:53,645 --> 01:03:57,045
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this will actually change your life. If

1341
01:03:57,085 --> 01:04:00,085
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this story and you are looking for what

1342
01:04:00,205 --> 01:04:02,645
Speaker 1: to listen to you next, I have a suggestion for you.

1343
01:04:03,205 --> 01:04:06,565
Speaker 1: It's actually an episode of our family life podcast called

1344
01:04:06,645 --> 01:04:09,685
Speaker 1: This Glorious Mess, and this episode is actually called When

1345
01:04:09,805 --> 01:04:15,445
Speaker 1: Daddy Goes to Prison, and it's the most fascinating episode

1346
01:04:15,445 --> 01:04:18,205
Speaker 1: of the show. It's hosted by Holly Wainwright and Andrew Daddo,

1347
01:04:18,285 --> 01:04:20,485
Speaker 1: who hosts the show every week, and they speak to

1348
01:04:20,525 --> 01:04:23,405
Speaker 1: a guy called Scott Williams about the time that he

1349
01:04:23,485 --> 01:04:26,045
Speaker 1: had to tell his young son that he was going

1350
01:04:26,085 --> 01:04:29,885
Speaker 1: to prison, and I didn't get to talk to Carry

1351
01:04:30,045 --> 01:04:34,805
Speaker 1: enough about her relationship with her daughters and what that

1352
01:04:34,965 --> 01:04:38,645
Speaker 1: was like having that conversation so much. But oh, the

1353
01:04:38,645 --> 01:04:41,125
Speaker 1: interview with Scott Williams is really interesting. You can find

1354
01:04:41,165 --> 01:04:44,085
Speaker 1: it in the Muma Mea podcast app or wherever you

1355
01:04:44,125 --> 01:04:46,365
Speaker 1: listen to this show. We will also put a link

1356
01:04:46,525 --> 01:04:50,005
Speaker 1: in our show notes to this and to the extract

1357
01:04:50,725 --> 01:04:53,845
Speaker 1: from Kerry Tucker's book. This show has been produced by

1358
01:04:53,845 --> 01:04:56,885
Speaker 1: Eliza Ratliffe. I am Maya Friedman and I will see

1359
01:04:56,925 --> 01:05:00,245
Speaker 1: you on Mama Mia dot com dot au. If you're

1360
01:05:00,245 --> 01:05:02,925
Speaker 1: looking for something else to listen to, like and follow

1361
01:05:03,125 --> 01:05:05,645
Speaker 1: all of our Muma Mea podcasts, which are currently bringing

1362
01:05:05,685 --> 01:05:08,805
Speaker 1: you hot pod Summer one hundred hours of summer listens.

1363
01:05:09,325 --> 01:05:13,765
Speaker 1: I see conversations to incredible stories, fashion, beauty, where the

1364
01:05:13,805 --> 01:05:15,445
Speaker 1: Friends in your Ear is over Summer