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Speaker 1: You're listening to another Mia podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges the

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Speaker 1: traditional owners of the land. We have recorded this podcast

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Speaker 1: on the Gatagul people of the Eor Nation. We pay

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Speaker 1: our respects to their elders past and present, and extend

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Speaker 1: that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Rate islander cultures.

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Speaker 2: Hi, it's Annalise Todd here from This Glorious Mess introducing

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Speaker 2: Hot Pod Summer, one hundred hours of curated listening across

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Speaker 2: the Mummameer network, just for you to escape the chaos

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Speaker 2: and enjoy with the kids at home and the weather

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Speaker 2: warming up. We've got episodes of Little Love Stories and

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Speaker 2: Parents Anonymous to share. Little Love Stories is an open

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Speaker 2: hearted conversation with someone who has loved to share that

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Speaker 2: love can be to anything. Maybe it's a time in

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Speaker 2: someone's life, a person, or even an object. It's all

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Speaker 2: about discovering the magic everywhere you look. If you're looking

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Speaker 2: for something else to listen to, Mama Mia is officially

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Speaker 2: presenting one hundred hours of summer listens, from meaningful conversations

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Speaker 2: to incredible stories, fashion, beauty and more.

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Speaker 3: There's a link in the show notes.

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Speaker 4: I Love you, Have you lived with you?

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Speaker 3: From Mamma Mia.

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Speaker 2: This is this glorious mess, and welcome back to Little

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Speaker 2: Love Stories. I'm Grace Ruvery, the producer of this glorious mess.

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Speaker 3: What defines a tough time?

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Speaker 2: That's saying tough time is often the term used by

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Speaker 2: the viewer on the outside and not the person experiencing it,

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Speaker 2: because for those who are actually experiencing the tough time,

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Speaker 2: it's more like a kaleidoscope of human emotions, morphing and

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Speaker 2: changing every second from hard, terrifying, refreshing and even exhilarating.

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Speaker 2: Today's Little Love story comes from Chris O'Neill. Almost two

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Speaker 2: years ago, Chris was diagnosed with breast cancer and she

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Speaker 2: went through and continues to wade through a myriad of

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Speaker 2: complex emotions. One of those is her now very layered

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Speaker 2: position as suddenly an inspirational survivor.

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Speaker 5: Is because you have this portrayal of what a survivor is,

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Speaker 5: which is often one dimensional, sometimes you know, very masculine,

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Speaker 5: and it's a juxtaposition to what it is actually that

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Speaker 5: you feel inside. It's more than just surviving. It's resilient,

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Speaker 5: it's courageousness. It's being terrified and then having to push

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Speaker 5: on anyway because, like you said, you actually have no choice.

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Speaker 2: Whilst her survival is of course a cause for celebration,

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Speaker 2: Chris had to make the choice to get a double

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Speaker 2: mistectomy and it kicks downed a whole new journey now

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out who she was in the aftermath,

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Speaker 2: whilst also being grateful that she's here today.

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Speaker 5: And I don't want to feel regret. It's too late

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Speaker 5: for regret. But I also feel like it's like a

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Speaker 5: time in my life that it just feels like it's

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Speaker 5: not even me anymore, and I really am fundamentally different.

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Speaker 2: Chris didn't write a love letter to herself about resilience

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Speaker 2: or surviving. Chris write a letter to her breasts, her girls,

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Speaker 2: the choice to say goodbye to them, and the choice

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Speaker 2: her choice to say no to reconstruction.

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Speaker 5: We should be afforded choice, every choice. It shouldn't matter

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Speaker 5: if I'm a woman. It shouldn't matter if I am

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Speaker 5: a man. It shouldn't matter my age, it shouldn't matter

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Speaker 5: if I've had children or not. It's not discriminative. I

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Speaker 5: should have all of my choices on the table, and

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Speaker 5: I should not have to fight or even ask for

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Speaker 5: one that's not offered to me, but he's actually available

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Speaker 5: to me if I choose.

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Speaker 2: There's another word that gets thrown up round from the outside,

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Speaker 2: and that's legacy. It's used as a way to discuss death,

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Speaker 2: to keep a memory alive, or reflect on a person.

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Speaker 3: But for Chris and our.

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Speaker 2: Best friend Cass, they're creating a living legacy to help

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Speaker 2: people feel seen and supported, as well as finding a

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Speaker 2: way to love their new self after going through such

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Speaker 2: fundamental change. But before we get there, here's what a

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Speaker 2: little bit of love sounds like today.

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Speaker 4: I think it just unconditional caring, really and absolutely happy.

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Speaker 1: It's like, regardless of highs and lows, being.

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Speaker 2: Completely comfortable, knowing that you're secure, you have that person,

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Speaker 2: They've got you.

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Speaker 5: De la Maree, very beautiful, passion, romantic.

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Speaker 1: It's like the hardest thing to describe.

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Speaker 5: I reckon. I think you know when you feel it warmth.

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Speaker 4: My husband's ninety three and I'm ninety one. This is

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Speaker 4: our seventy eight year ups and downs, having a squabble,

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Speaker 4: all sorts of interesting thing.

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Speaker 1: It's kind it dental, It's like caring.

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Speaker 3: Chris. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: The house stories I want to start with the term

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Speaker 2: survivor and how that can be a controversial term, and

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Speaker 2: I think people can think that it's supportive or you've

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Speaker 2: gone through this journey, but it can be quite polarizing

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Speaker 2: for some people.

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Speaker 3: Could you tell me your relationship with the word survivor.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I probably don't really identify myself as a survivor,

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Speaker 5: but I do know, like you said, it is polarizing,

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Speaker 5: and I think it's actually very individual. From what I've

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Speaker 5: seen in social media and the amazing humans that I

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Speaker 5: follow that inspire me, some of them very much identify

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Speaker 5: as survivors and it's in their title. But then I

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Speaker 5: just think you have such a varying degree of greatness

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Speaker 5: when it comes to what it means to survive, what

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Speaker 5: it means to thrive, or what it means to be

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Speaker 5: a previver, which we also see is an example of

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Speaker 5: someone identifying their journey either with a health challenge or

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Speaker 5: preventing health in some respects cancer. It's very individual what

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Speaker 5: makes them a survivor to you? And how can you

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Speaker 5: be more articulate in that space? So, if you are

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Speaker 5: looking at someone as a survivor, is it because they're

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Speaker 5: showing resilience? Is it because they're showing vulnerability. Is it

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Speaker 5: because they're showing both and then core that out so

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Speaker 5: that you don't have to worry about labeling people or

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Speaker 5: offending people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like when people put this weight on you,

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Speaker 2: it's from the outside. Do you feel I guess an

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Speaker 2: imposter syndrome at being seen as a survivor or you're

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Speaker 2: a motivational speaker now that you've had this shit thing

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Speaker 2: happened to you, where in reality, you didn't have a

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Speaker 2: choice but to face it. I know you and your

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Speaker 2: podcast co host Cass have recently done an episode on this.

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Speaker 5: YEP, we talk about this often. Is because you have

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Speaker 5: this portrayal of what a survivor is, which is often

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Speaker 5: one dimensional, sometimes very masculine, and it's a juxtaposition to

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Speaker 5: what it is actually that you feel inside. It's more

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Speaker 5: than just surviving. It's resilience, it's courageousness. It's being terrified,

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Speaker 5: it's being doubtful, it's feeling like absolute shit and then

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Speaker 5: having to push on anyway, because, like you said, you

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Speaker 5: actually have no choice. And I guarantee that from an

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Speaker 5: outsider's point of view, if you were placed in that position,

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Speaker 5: they would absolutely do the same thing. And it's the

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Speaker 5: essence of what we talk about. Stan Grant talks about

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Speaker 5: that when you put in a situation where you have

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Speaker 5: no choice, it's the essence of you that rises to

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Speaker 5: the surface for you to be able to overcome the challenge,

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Speaker 5: whether it be sickness.

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Speaker 2: Whatever it is. And it is a form of grief.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that you written in your little love story.

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Speaker 2: Could you just read out that part for me.

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Speaker 5: I often place my hands on the space you both

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Speaker 5: used to sit. I press down like an iron, remembering

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Speaker 5: the warmth you both left that now feels cold and numb.

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Speaker 5: Your absence is reflected in the most intimate of moments.

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Speaker 5: I have photos to remember you buy, but it is

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Speaker 5: way too early to gaze on those.

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Speaker 3: And for what purpose would it serve.

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Speaker 5: There is a great heaviness to your absence, a feeling

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Speaker 5: not unlike grief.

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Speaker 3: It's just sad.

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Speaker 2: It's going to hit different on different days, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 5: And that's what's so complex about grief. Sometimes you do

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Speaker 5: feel really positive, and sometimes you feel the quiet spaces

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Speaker 5: with things to do, tasks to complete, so you can

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Speaker 5: always almost distract yourself from the grief and it just

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Speaker 5: goes in waves.

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Speaker 3: So it's about.

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Speaker 5: Riding the highs, riding the lows, and drawing on the

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Speaker 5: support you need.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about the photos that you have

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Speaker 2: you haven't looked at. Why haven't you looked at them yet?

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Speaker 5: Because I'm afraid of what it will surface. Yeah, I

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Speaker 5: guess it's a form of avoidance. And I don't want

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Speaker 5: to feel regret. It's too late for regret. I think

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Speaker 5: it just feels like it's not even me anymore. And

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Speaker 5: what this I guess event or life challenge that I've

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Speaker 5: had to go through has just created I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I'm just so different. I know it sounds very cliche,

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Speaker 5: but I really am fundamentally different. So now I'm in

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Speaker 5: this kind of self discovery phase of how I now,

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Speaker 5: I guess identify, and so I just don't think I'm ready.

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Speaker 5: But you know, what might be an anti climax. I

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Speaker 5: could look at those photos and go, oh gosh, that

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Speaker 5: was nothing.

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Speaker 3: What was I worried about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the fundamental different person is it's a life marker.

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Speaker 2: All of these moments in life before it happened, Like

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Speaker 2: that's the last page of a chapter, but you have

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Speaker 2: started the next chapter. Yeah, and in that next chapter,

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Speaker 2: I would like you to read the next part of

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Speaker 2: your essay where you talk about the relief and finding oxygen,

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Speaker 2: which I'm really curious to hear about.

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Speaker 5: Like an unfeeling fist that has been clenched for way

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Speaker 5: too long, your loss has returned oxygen to aspects of

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Speaker 5: myself that I buried under to do lists and tasks

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Speaker 5: that filled every moment of my waking life. I no

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Speaker 5: longer swallow uncomfortableness like dry bread clogging up my airways,

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Speaker 5: but instead I cry all types of cries, really silent cries,

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Speaker 5: loud cries, angry cries, marathon like cries, ugly cries. I

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Speaker 5: think I've experienced them more. If the body keeps the score.

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Speaker 5: I've been on a losing streak until now. What do

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Speaker 5: you think your losing streak was up until that time?

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Speaker 5: I've described myself as a one dimensional person, where ye,

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Speaker 5: my identity was just wrapped up in what I.

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Speaker 3: Did for work.

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Speaker 5: I love my work. It makes a difference, but it's

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Speaker 5: also relentless, and I'm the kind of person that I

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Speaker 5: thrive on fast paced type of environment, so it was

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Speaker 5: almost like it was feeding a negative part of myself.

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Speaker 5: And it ended up just taking over my whole life.

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Speaker 5: And I've done that for most of my working life,

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Speaker 5: and so when this actually happened, the first emotion that

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Speaker 5: I felt was relief, which is really fucked up. How

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Speaker 5: do you feel relief? Like it does not make sense?

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Speaker 5: And yeah, I had to have six weeks off and

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Speaker 5: that really woke me up because I thought, yeah, that

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Speaker 5: was a real turning point for me. And I took

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Speaker 5: those six weeks to really evaluate, first of all, around

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Speaker 5: how I was going to turn back up at work.

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Speaker 5: So I made some really key decisions in that respect,

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Speaker 5: but also bring to the surface all the other parts

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Speaker 5: of me that i'd pretty much lay dormant because I

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Speaker 5: let work just overrun my life.

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Speaker 2: What is that re entry back into life like where

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Speaker 2: you've gone through something massive and then you are sort

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Speaker 2: of being met with people from a voyeuristic perspective of

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Speaker 2: you know, you're kind of behind a amusing an exhibit

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Speaker 2: of like survivor Brave. What was it like having to

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Speaker 2: deal with the conversations with people that they put on you,

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Speaker 2: And I guess sometimes you end up counseling them through

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Speaker 2: your journey.

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Speaker 5: You know, I'm so lucky to be surrounded by so

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Speaker 5: many incredible humans. You know, whether I work with them,

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Speaker 5: live with them, I loved by them, and so everyone

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Speaker 5: just means so well. I always take that with thankfulness really,

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Speaker 5: and you know some people will yeah place that kind

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Speaker 5: of survivor or that bravery title on you, or ask

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Speaker 5: you how you're doing it and how you're possibly moving

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Speaker 5: on with you couldn't possibly, Yes, I couldn't possibly, which

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Speaker 5: comes from a place of fear, right, So I think

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Speaker 5: it was actually really empowering because being in a place

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Speaker 5: where I had to undergo this experience and no one

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Speaker 5: else had to, it gave me a reason to change,

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Speaker 5: and it gave me permission to do so.

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Speaker 2: You do go into talk about in the essay that

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Speaker 2: it's not easy, like to make that decision, even though

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Speaker 2: it is about saving your life, but it's still not

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Speaker 2: easy to make that decision.

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Speaker 3: I'd love for you to read that part.

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Speaker 5: This decision came with great anxiety, and the inception of

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Speaker 5: this anxiety stemming from the literature that I was reading

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Speaker 5: about masectomy and the clear messaging that to me favored

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Speaker 5: reconstruction as a way to assure or improve my quality

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Speaker 5: of life. I did not have to fight to go flat,

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Speaker 5: like so many other women in this world have to.

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Speaker 5: But I did have to clearly ask for it. Beyond

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Speaker 5: surgery and physical recovery, there is still not enough guidance

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Speaker 5: on how to address my grief or navigate my wobbly

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Speaker 5: moments beyond flippant advice to go and seek psychological help.

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Speaker 2: What is fight to go flat? That's not a term

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Speaker 2: that I've heard before. I'd love to know more about it.

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Speaker 5: When I was diagnosed with breast cancer, it was a

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Speaker 5: high grade form of cancer called ductor castinoma in situ,

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Speaker 5: so I got it early. It was early form, it

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Speaker 5: was not yet invasive, and so when I first got diagnosed.

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Speaker 3: I thought, oh, thank God, I'll.

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Speaker 5: Just get that thing cut out and I'll just move

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Speaker 5: on with my life. Might have to have a radiation,

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Speaker 5: have a couple of days off work, and that I

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Speaker 5: can resume my one dimensional life. I was then rudely

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Speaker 5: told that my mass was so large and because of

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Speaker 5: the ratio of the mass that was inside my left

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Speaker 5: breast compared to the size of my breast, because I

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Speaker 5: had quite small breasts, they were unable to save that breast.

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Speaker 5: And so what I had to do was make the

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Speaker 5: decision around whether I would go flat, or go with

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Speaker 5: an immediate reconstruction, or go with a delayed reconstruction, or

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Speaker 5: have a double miss ectomy. Now, they were all the

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Speaker 5: options that I could take, but the only options that

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Speaker 5: were offered to me was either an immediate reconstruction or

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Speaker 5: a delayed reconstruction of the left breast. And so when

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Speaker 5: I talk about fighting to go flat, the challenge in

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Speaker 5: this arena is that so many women across the world

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Speaker 5: are not afforded that option. If they're brave enough like

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Speaker 5: I was, to actually ask for it, and if they

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Speaker 5: have a surgeon like I did, who so graciously said,

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Speaker 5: of course, it's your body, it's your decision, some surgeons refuse. Basically,

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Speaker 5: we should be afforded choice, every choice. It shouldn't matter

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Speaker 5: if I'm a woman. It shouldn't matter if I am

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Speaker 5: a man. It shouldn't matter my age, it shouldn't matter

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Speaker 5: if I've had children or not. It's not discriminative. I

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Speaker 5: should have all of my choices on the table, and

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Speaker 5: I should not have to fight or even ask for

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Speaker 5: one that's not offered to me, but he is actually

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Speaker 5: available to me if I choose. And so whether it

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Speaker 5: was my age, whether it's just the surgical culture, whatever

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Speaker 5: it is, we know that women across the world oftentimes

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Speaker 5: have to fight to go flat, and in some cases

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Speaker 5: actually lose that fight. Because in my case, I asked

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Speaker 5: for a double missectomy, knowing that I would be taking

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Speaker 5: my second breast, which was completely healthy tissue, and I

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Speaker 5: did that for many reasons, and yeah, my breast surgeon said, yes,

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Speaker 5: of course I didn't want implants, and I know many

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Speaker 5: women do and that's their choice, but for me personally,

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Speaker 5: I knew I didn't want implants and thankfully was given

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Speaker 5: that option.

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Speaker 2: As part of the section that you just read out,

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Speaker 2: you said, there's not a lot that's been done to

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Speaker 2: support you apart from go and seek psychological help. What

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Speaker 2: options do you want to see out there for women

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Speaker 2: like yourself who are struggling after this procedure.

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Speaker 5: I can only talk in the breast cancer area and

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Speaker 5: my own personal experience. There is such a wealth of support,

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Speaker 5: and I mean I'm talking about myself. I am a

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Speaker 5: woman in a metropolitan city who has a very stable job,

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Speaker 5: who can take leave. I have so much support and

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Speaker 5: access to surgical procedures and options and medical support, and

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Speaker 5: I know that's not the case for everyone. So through

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Speaker 5: that lens, after the surgery, after you physically heal, after

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Speaker 5: the scars, what then after the breast can nurses stop

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Speaker 5: coming and calling? What is actually available from there? Because

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Speaker 5: it's not just about the physical recovery, it's about navigating

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Speaker 5: the world in your new body, in your new identity.

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Speaker 5: And yes, I could and do see a psychologist, but

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Speaker 5: it's more of a community that we need to see

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Speaker 5: that recognizes being flat as about a choice, recognizes that

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Speaker 5: women of all ages, sizes, colors may want to go flat,

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Speaker 5: that's okay, and that we should be able to embark

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Speaker 5: on the world just like every other human, whether you've

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Speaker 5: got a boob or not.

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Speaker 2: What you're doing now is you're creating that community yourself. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I'd love for you to tell me about the podcast

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Speaker 2: that you have with your friend, yes, and what you're

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Speaker 2: hoping to deal with it.

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Speaker 5: So my best friend Cass, who's also had a double

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Speaker 5: mis ectomy for a very different reason, we decided to

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Speaker 5: start a podcast and that podcast is called breast Case Scenario.

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Speaker 5: So the inception of the idea started when I walked

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Speaker 5: into this was two weeks before I was to have

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Speaker 5: my surgery. I started thinking about prosthetics because at the

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Speaker 5: time I was most worried about looking like I had boobs,

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Speaker 5: even though I hadn't, and that's just completely different now.

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Speaker 5: So I walked into this brass store that showed mastectomy

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Speaker 5: where and she directed me to the offerings of swimwear.

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Speaker 5: I looked at the rack and just I was just

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Speaker 5: really sad actually, because nothing there represented what I would wear.

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Speaker 5: It was really interesting. I thought, Wow, I think there's

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Speaker 5: a gap in the market here. So that's how it started.

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Speaker 5: But then it evolved into the navigating the world and

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Speaker 5: body and identity and self love, all of that kind

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Speaker 5: of thing. And we realized that even between Cass and I,

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Speaker 5: yes we've both had double misseectomies, but our scenarios cannot

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Speaker 5: be more different. And so we've created space of like

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Speaker 5: minded humans who can engage with light, with laughter, with gratefulness,

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Speaker 5: with reflection about our experiences, and support each other post

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Speaker 5: surgical perspective of misectomy. And we love doing every minute

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Speaker 5: of it.

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Speaker 3: And what's the response been.

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Speaker 2: Have you found more women who have been like, yes,

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Speaker 2: thank you, We've needed this.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's been very emotional. Actually, you know, it's an

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Speaker 5: absolute labor of love. Cass and I both work full

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Speaker 5: time and we spend every other waking minute of our

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Speaker 5: lives just delving deep into creativity. It's a form of writing,

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Speaker 5: right And when you get the feedback from women saying

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Speaker 5: thank you so much for putting this out here, you

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Speaker 5: have put words to how I feel, and I wasn't

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Speaker 5: able to articulate them. In some respects, our listeners are

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Speaker 5: actually putting into words things that we can't articulate ourselves

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Speaker 5: because we're still processing and try to understand that psychological

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Speaker 5: aspect of this event happening. We've just met so many

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Speaker 5: incredible people along the way. We have a long list

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Speaker 5: of people we'd like to interview or have interviewed. You know,

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Speaker 5: we're all about inclusivity. So when we're talking about maseectomy,

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Speaker 5: yes it predominantly impacts women with breast cancer, but there's

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Speaker 5: also prophilectic misectomies, there's also masseectomies in men, and there's

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Speaker 5: also top surgery for those undertaking gender transitions. So we

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Speaker 5: are going to represent the more and we are really

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Speaker 5: excited about that.

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Speaker 2: So we end every little love stories by asking what

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Speaker 2: does love mean to you?

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Speaker 5: Well, for me, When I think of what love means

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Speaker 5: to me, now that I've fifteen months postmasectomy, I think

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Speaker 5: it all comes down to presence, giving someone your unreserved presence,

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Speaker 5: and that's something that I don't think I did very

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Speaker 5: well up until that time. I think I was constantly

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Speaker 5: distracted about what I should be doing instead of engaging

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Speaker 5: with my beautiful nephews or nieces or sisters, or mother

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Speaker 5: or father or my own family. So, whether it be

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Speaker 5: by giving your time or prioritizing what you hold deer

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Speaker 5: in terms of your values, I think that's really important. Yes,

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Speaker 5: it's giving up blocks of time and days, but it's

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Speaker 5: also in the fleeting moments with those that you spend

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Speaker 5: the most time with. So for me, my two beautiful

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Speaker 5: boys and my husband, and just taking advantage of all

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Speaker 5: those small moments that you have dinner together because those

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Speaker 5: moments are so few far in between. I mean, I

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Speaker 5: have teenage boys, so they don't want to bar of me,

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Speaker 5: and putting the phone down, sitting down and taking the

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Speaker 5: time to bring your whole self because they deserve your

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Speaker 5: whole self. That's what love means to me.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for sharing your story.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me thank you for listening to

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Speaker 2: Little Love Stories. You can read Chris's full essay on

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Speaker 2: the mum and mea website. There is a link to

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Speaker 2: it in our show notes. If you have a love

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Speaker 2: story to share, we'd love to hear it. Don't be

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Speaker 2: afraid to think outside the box of the story you

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Speaker 2: want to tell and the love you want to share.

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Speaker 2: You can find all the details on how to submit

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Speaker 2: your story in our show notes