1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:23,527 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:23,567 --> 00:00:24,047 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. 5 00:00:24,127 --> 00:00:24,527 Speaker 3: Out loud. 6 00:00:24,607 --> 00:00:27,287 Speaker 2: What women are actually talking about on Monday, the twenty 7 00:00:27,327 --> 00:00:30,087 Speaker 2: third of September. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm. 8 00:00:29,887 --> 00:00:31,807 Speaker 3: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 9 00:00:31,847 --> 00:00:34,687 Speaker 2: And on the show today, the former First Lady of 10 00:00:34,727 --> 00:00:38,607 Speaker 2: America is defending her right to express herself through nudity, 11 00:00:39,087 --> 00:00:43,727 Speaker 2: which is ace, but defending herself from whom. Also, there's 12 00:00:43,767 --> 00:00:46,207 Speaker 2: a surge in breast surgery among young women, but it's 13 00:00:46,207 --> 00:00:49,007 Speaker 2: breast reductions, not enlargements that are on the rise. 14 00:00:49,407 --> 00:00:51,247 Speaker 1: Why is that also? 15 00:00:51,607 --> 00:00:55,127 Speaker 2: Take it down? One of the biggest celebrity media brands 16 00:00:55,167 --> 00:00:58,247 Speaker 2: just bowed to pressure to remove a video interview with 17 00:00:58,287 --> 00:01:01,447 Speaker 2: a very famous actress, but first Jesse. 18 00:01:01,967 --> 00:01:06,807 Speaker 4: Last week, thousands of pages and other wireless devices simultaneously 19 00:01:07,087 --> 00:01:11,327 Speaker 4: exploded across Lebanon and part of Steria. It began on 20 00:01:11,407 --> 00:01:16,327 Speaker 4: Tuesday as thousands of handheld electronic pages, which had been 21 00:01:16,367 --> 00:01:20,847 Speaker 4: distributed by Hesbela, exploded on busy streets. To back up 22 00:01:20,847 --> 00:01:24,367 Speaker 4: for a moment, Hesbela is a designated terrorist organization, and 23 00:01:24,407 --> 00:01:28,127 Speaker 4: they control the most powerful armed force in Lebanon. The 24 00:01:28,167 --> 00:01:33,287 Speaker 4: assault continued Wednesday, with more devices detonating, including two way radios. 25 00:01:34,087 --> 00:01:37,087 Speaker 4: As the Washington Post put it, the attack was unlike 26 00:01:37,207 --> 00:01:41,527 Speaker 4: any other in size and scope, turning everyday devices into 27 00:01:41,567 --> 00:01:46,687 Speaker 4: weapons of war. At least thirty two people, including two children. 28 00:01:46,767 --> 00:01:49,847 Speaker 4: Reports vary between two and four children were killed and 29 00:01:49,967 --> 00:01:53,687 Speaker 4: thousands more were injured. Many of the explosions happened in 30 00:01:53,727 --> 00:01:57,127 Speaker 4: the vicinity of large crowds. Hesbelah has said this was 31 00:01:57,167 --> 00:02:00,807 Speaker 4: an attack by Israel, but so far Israeli officials have 32 00:02:00,887 --> 00:02:06,367 Speaker 4: declined to comment. Hesbelah has vowed retaliation. And I found 33 00:02:06,727 --> 00:02:09,567 Speaker 4: something deeply unsettling in the reporting of the so over 34 00:02:09,607 --> 00:02:13,207 Speaker 4: the weekend, I felt as though headlines and even the 35 00:02:13,287 --> 00:02:16,007 Speaker 4: tone that was existing in a lot of the coverage 36 00:02:16,447 --> 00:02:18,887 Speaker 4: was as though this was some sort of action movie, 37 00:02:19,127 --> 00:02:21,487 Speaker 4: as if children didn't make up some of the casualties. 38 00:02:22,127 --> 00:02:25,327 Speaker 4: And it felt like and it has felt like this 39 00:02:25,367 --> 00:02:28,647 Speaker 4: for months that were becoming increasingly desensitized to the loss 40 00:02:28,847 --> 00:02:33,087 Speaker 4: of human life. There's been comparisons to the James Bond 41 00:02:33,287 --> 00:02:37,527 Speaker 4: element of it. I was reading one very highly respected 42 00:02:37,687 --> 00:02:40,847 Speaker 4: publication that referred to it as an achievement, and I 43 00:02:40,887 --> 00:02:43,087 Speaker 4: thought of the parents of the kids who lost their lives, 44 00:02:43,487 --> 00:02:45,807 Speaker 4: and if I was in Lebanon or in any part 45 00:02:45,967 --> 00:02:48,807 Speaker 4: of the Middle East right now, I'd be terrified, more 46 00:02:48,887 --> 00:02:51,767 Speaker 4: terrified than I was a week ago. So it just 47 00:02:51,807 --> 00:02:54,447 Speaker 4: served as a reminder to me that regardless of where 48 00:02:54,447 --> 00:02:58,167 Speaker 4: you are in the world, the innocent human life matters, 49 00:02:58,327 --> 00:03:00,967 Speaker 4: and we've got to be careful not to get excited 50 00:03:01,047 --> 00:03:04,487 Speaker 4: or gleeful because there's new technology, because this isn't a 51 00:03:04,527 --> 00:03:05,047 Speaker 4: video game. 52 00:03:05,167 --> 00:03:05,967 Speaker 3: These are real people. 53 00:03:06,247 --> 00:03:09,167 Speaker 1: It reminded me a little bit that sort of all 54 00:03:09,367 --> 00:03:12,287 Speaker 1: or is the wrong word, but it's all a new technology. 55 00:03:12,647 --> 00:03:15,727 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety, when the Iraq War started, there was 56 00:03:16,007 --> 00:03:19,127 Speaker 1: again another big leap in technology, with drones and cameras 57 00:03:19,127 --> 00:03:20,967 Speaker 1: been used to drop bombs on targets, which you could 58 00:03:21,007 --> 00:03:24,767 Speaker 1: then also see. We watched that on CNN and pilots 59 00:03:24,807 --> 00:03:27,047 Speaker 1: were watching it on these screens, and there were interviews 60 00:03:27,047 --> 00:03:30,007 Speaker 1: with the pilots after they finished their missions and bombings, 61 00:03:30,047 --> 00:03:32,207 Speaker 1: and they came off and these were like pretty young 62 00:03:32,247 --> 00:03:34,087 Speaker 1: guys and they were like, it was so cool. It 63 00:03:34,127 --> 00:03:37,567 Speaker 1: was like playing a video game. And even then there 64 00:03:37,607 --> 00:03:39,967 Speaker 1: was a little bit of discomfort in the same way 65 00:03:40,007 --> 00:03:43,007 Speaker 1: that you say, where it can be really easy to 66 00:03:43,127 --> 00:03:46,967 Speaker 1: forget that there are human lives, and in the case 67 00:03:47,167 --> 00:03:51,447 Speaker 1: of what happened with Hesbola, the targets of this attack 68 00:03:51,927 --> 00:03:55,687 Speaker 1: were terrorists whose sole aim is to kill other people. 69 00:03:56,407 --> 00:03:58,487 Speaker 1: So I guess you would say very clearly they were 70 00:03:58,527 --> 00:04:01,007 Speaker 1: the bad guys, but also civilians were injured and killed, 71 00:04:01,687 --> 00:04:03,767 Speaker 1: and they weren't bad guys, they were civilians. 72 00:04:04,167 --> 00:04:08,287 Speaker 2: I think also it's worth remembering that as we're watching 73 00:04:08,287 --> 00:04:10,647 Speaker 2: this and everybody's talk talking about how did it happen, 74 00:04:10,687 --> 00:04:15,687 Speaker 2: and pages and walkie talkies and getting explosives into systems 75 00:04:15,687 --> 00:04:19,887 Speaker 2: inside people's homes, what it actually signals is an escalation 76 00:04:20,447 --> 00:04:22,727 Speaker 2: of something that I think a lot well obviously a 77 00:04:22,727 --> 00:04:25,367 Speaker 2: lot of the world is very invested in de escalation 78 00:04:25,687 --> 00:04:28,447 Speaker 2: of the Middle East, in the Middle East, and so 79 00:04:28,647 --> 00:04:30,847 Speaker 2: it's not good news for anyone who was hoping that 80 00:04:31,527 --> 00:04:34,447 Speaker 2: peace was closer, because it's only further away. 81 00:04:35,287 --> 00:04:38,567 Speaker 1: If anyone was wondering where Milania Trump has been during 82 00:04:38,567 --> 00:04:42,567 Speaker 1: the past few years, she's been writing her autobiography and 83 00:04:42,607 --> 00:04:44,887 Speaker 1: also signing a deal to make her own range of 84 00:04:44,927 --> 00:04:49,127 Speaker 1: Christmas decorations Thank God, which is unexpected because when she 85 00:04:49,167 --> 00:04:51,647 Speaker 1: and Donald Trump were in the White House, you might remember, 86 00:04:51,807 --> 00:04:54,567 Speaker 1: hopefully you don't. You know, every first lady's in charge 87 00:04:54,567 --> 00:04:57,367 Speaker 1: of decorating the White House for Christmas and their choice 88 00:04:57,367 --> 00:05:01,167 Speaker 1: of Christmas decorations. Her choice was very dystopian. It was 89 00:05:01,207 --> 00:05:05,887 Speaker 1: a lot of black trees and it was like melefelsince House. 90 00:05:06,087 --> 00:05:08,647 Speaker 1: Maybe there was a leaked phone call where she said, 91 00:05:09,287 --> 00:05:13,087 Speaker 1: I fucking hate Christmas. Anyway, Times Change now are launching 92 00:05:13,167 --> 00:05:17,207 Speaker 1: Christmas decorations. But the promotional strategy for her book is 93 00:05:17,287 --> 00:05:20,047 Speaker 1: what has been rolling out in the most surreal way 94 00:05:20,327 --> 00:05:23,207 Speaker 1: the last few days with a series of again pretty 95 00:05:23,247 --> 00:05:27,367 Speaker 1: dystopian videos, short in black and white. She really does 96 00:05:27,527 --> 00:05:31,847 Speaker 1: like that quite severe, very stark lighting heavy. 97 00:05:31,967 --> 00:05:36,047 Speaker 2: Usually yeah, she thinks it's sophisticated because dramatic music. What 98 00:05:36,127 --> 00:05:37,727 Speaker 2: I've seen of the cover of a book is it's 99 00:05:37,727 --> 00:05:39,807 Speaker 2: literally just a white Do you think that's really. 100 00:05:39,607 --> 00:05:41,967 Speaker 1: The No, I don't think that is a way I cover well. 101 00:05:42,007 --> 00:05:44,287 Speaker 1: In these videos she talks about all manner of things 102 00:05:44,287 --> 00:05:48,407 Speaker 1: and looks and sounds well, kind of disconcertingly like dystopian AI. 103 00:05:49,487 --> 00:05:51,367 Speaker 1: The book isn't actually out from a couple of weeks, 104 00:05:51,367 --> 00:05:53,687 Speaker 1: so nobody's seen the actual cover already yet, but here's 105 00:05:53,727 --> 00:05:55,487 Speaker 1: a little bit of a taste of the videos. 106 00:05:55,687 --> 00:05:59,767 Speaker 5: Writing this memoir has been a deeply personal and reflective 107 00:05:59,847 --> 00:06:04,687 Speaker 5: journey for me, as a private person who has often 108 00:06:04,727 --> 00:06:10,807 Speaker 5: been the subject of public scrutiny and misrepresentation. I feel 109 00:06:10,807 --> 00:06:15,847 Speaker 5: a responsibility to clarify the facts. I believe it is 110 00:06:15,887 --> 00:06:19,087 Speaker 5: important to share my perspective the truth. 111 00:06:19,567 --> 00:06:22,047 Speaker 1: But the title of one of these videos, in particular 112 00:06:22,087 --> 00:06:24,967 Speaker 1: that I didn't play just then, stands out, and it is, 113 00:06:25,287 --> 00:06:28,447 Speaker 1: why do I stand proudly behind my new modeling work? 114 00:06:29,167 --> 00:06:30,887 Speaker 1: So you know it's going to be really excellent before 115 00:06:30,887 --> 00:06:33,167 Speaker 1: you even here? Ply on this one, here's a little 116 00:06:33,207 --> 00:06:35,967 Speaker 1: bit of what she says in that video. 117 00:06:35,607 --> 00:06:39,087 Speaker 5: Why do I stand proudly behind my nude modeling work? 118 00:06:40,207 --> 00:06:44,407 Speaker 5: The more pressing question is why has the media chosen 119 00:06:44,447 --> 00:06:48,607 Speaker 5: to scrutinize my celebration of the human forum in a 120 00:06:48,647 --> 00:06:52,527 Speaker 5: fashion photoshoot? Are we no longer able to appreciate the 121 00:06:52,567 --> 00:06:58,367 Speaker 5: beauty of the human body? Throughout history, master artists have 122 00:06:58,487 --> 00:07:03,567 Speaker 5: revered the human shape, evoking profound emotions and admiration. We 123 00:07:03,567 --> 00:07:07,767 Speaker 5: should honor our bodies and embrace the timeless tradition of 124 00:07:07,967 --> 00:07:11,847 Speaker 5: using art as a powerful means of self expression. 125 00:07:12,367 --> 00:07:16,087 Speaker 1: While she was talking that voiceover on the video, there 126 00:07:16,127 --> 00:07:19,207 Speaker 1: were all pictures of like famous works of art by 127 00:07:19,247 --> 00:07:24,167 Speaker 1: famous artists like Angel and Sassan, And she didn't actually 128 00:07:24,207 --> 00:07:26,607 Speaker 1: show her pictures, but she post naked for a French 129 00:07:26,647 --> 00:07:30,087 Speaker 1: adult magazine in nineteen ninety five and for British GQ 130 00:07:30,407 --> 00:07:34,247 Speaker 1: in two thousand and The modeling photos were highlighted a 131 00:07:34,247 --> 00:07:37,767 Speaker 1: little bit in the twenty sixteen campaign when The New 132 00:07:37,807 --> 00:07:40,487 Speaker 1: York Post published several of the nude photos. Because of course, 133 00:07:40,487 --> 00:07:43,127 Speaker 1: there is going to be some media discussion about your 134 00:07:43,207 --> 00:07:45,767 Speaker 1: nudes when you're the first lady or the want to 135 00:07:45,767 --> 00:07:47,847 Speaker 1: be first lady, especially when your husband is all about 136 00:07:47,887 --> 00:07:52,727 Speaker 1: slut shaming female enemies and imposing traditional roles for women. 137 00:07:52,967 --> 00:07:56,847 Speaker 1: So we're certainly not endorsing any shaming of anyone for 138 00:07:56,927 --> 00:08:00,047 Speaker 1: being nude. But what's interesting is that she's answering a 139 00:08:00,127 --> 00:08:04,527 Speaker 1: question that nobody was asking, and it's puzzling, Holly, what's 140 00:08:04,567 --> 00:08:04,967 Speaker 1: going on. 141 00:08:05,447 --> 00:08:08,767 Speaker 2: So apparently Milania has asked for the rights for those 142 00:08:08,807 --> 00:08:11,767 Speaker 2: images to include in her memoir. So she wants you, 143 00:08:12,087 --> 00:08:14,247 Speaker 2: she wants to republish that she wants you to know 144 00:08:14,327 --> 00:08:16,007 Speaker 2: that those nudes are going to be in her book. 145 00:08:16,247 --> 00:08:17,567 Speaker 3: So she going for and Rada. 146 00:08:17,647 --> 00:08:20,087 Speaker 2: I think she's going full and Rada. But also I 147 00:08:20,127 --> 00:08:24,447 Speaker 2: am obsessed with Milania Trump. Why because say what you 148 00:08:24,527 --> 00:08:26,527 Speaker 2: like about Donald Trump, and we have said many things 149 00:08:26,607 --> 00:08:30,567 Speaker 2: about Donald Trump. His era of political assent in the 150 00:08:30,647 --> 00:08:33,607 Speaker 2: US has ripped up so many conventions, all the sort 151 00:08:33,647 --> 00:08:36,487 Speaker 2: of things that we used to insist on from politicians, 152 00:08:36,527 --> 00:08:38,407 Speaker 2: like that they at least pretend to be a nice 153 00:08:38,447 --> 00:08:40,487 Speaker 2: sort of human being and can go around saying things 154 00:08:40,487 --> 00:08:43,447 Speaker 2: like grabbing by the posse and insisting the elections that 155 00:08:43,447 --> 00:08:45,247 Speaker 2: you lost that you actually won, and all those things 156 00:08:45,247 --> 00:08:47,847 Speaker 2: that we used to think, oh, that's not very presidential, 157 00:08:48,007 --> 00:08:51,287 Speaker 2: things like fidelity and all that's gone, lack of nudity 158 00:08:51,327 --> 00:08:54,367 Speaker 2: in Paul being a felon. But you could argue that 159 00:08:54,447 --> 00:08:57,367 Speaker 2: all that through some lenses, you could say it's quite refreshing, 160 00:08:57,447 --> 00:08:59,567 Speaker 2: because American presidents have got away with a whole lot 161 00:08:59,567 --> 00:09:01,247 Speaker 2: of shit a lot of time, but they always had 162 00:09:01,287 --> 00:09:04,407 Speaker 2: to pretend that they had this lovely wife by their 163 00:09:04,487 --> 00:09:08,127 Speaker 2: side who adored them, happy family, blah blah blah. Milania 164 00:09:08,367 --> 00:09:13,447 Speaker 2: barely even pretends to live with him, like him sleep 165 00:09:13,487 --> 00:09:16,367 Speaker 2: with him, certainly, not hang around him, hold his hand. 166 00:09:16,807 --> 00:09:19,367 Speaker 2: I think she obviously has. I mean, I know this speculation, 167 00:09:19,447 --> 00:09:21,407 Speaker 2: but a lot of people say a certain amount of 168 00:09:21,447 --> 00:09:23,967 Speaker 2: agreed appearances are in their. 169 00:09:24,047 --> 00:09:24,887 Speaker 1: Contracts quite well. 170 00:09:24,927 --> 00:09:26,887 Speaker 2: So she's like, you know, I know you do kind 171 00:09:26,887 --> 00:09:28,607 Speaker 2: of need a wife by your side as you're running 172 00:09:28,607 --> 00:09:30,047 Speaker 2: for president. We're not going to do this in a 173 00:09:30,087 --> 00:09:33,367 Speaker 2: conventional way. I'll just turn up on these particular dates. 174 00:09:34,087 --> 00:09:36,847 Speaker 2: The book is great. It's released on October the eighth, 175 00:09:36,847 --> 00:09:39,367 Speaker 2: which is less than a month before the presidential election. 176 00:09:39,527 --> 00:09:41,047 Speaker 1: Now again, have you seen it? 177 00:09:41,447 --> 00:09:44,607 Speaker 2: No? I mean it sounds great from this, like such 178 00:09:44,647 --> 00:09:47,167 Speaker 2: a good idea. You're like, I'm going to published a 179 00:09:47,247 --> 00:09:52,447 Speaker 2: memoir a month before MyD It's just hilarious. It's just 180 00:09:52,527 --> 00:09:55,207 Speaker 2: hilarious because the thing that the Trump's are great out 181 00:09:55,287 --> 00:09:58,487 Speaker 2: is grifting. So on her site, you can buy images 182 00:09:58,527 --> 00:10:01,127 Speaker 2: of her, you can buy NFTs that she's made of, 183 00:10:01,167 --> 00:10:03,287 Speaker 2: like pretty flowers, you can buy Christmas ornaments, you can 184 00:10:03,327 --> 00:10:08,167 Speaker 2: buy jewelry. It's like working every angle right srifters, which 185 00:10:08,287 --> 00:10:11,567 Speaker 2: is not again not generally what first ladies do. And 186 00:10:11,647 --> 00:10:14,247 Speaker 2: I have to say that what I admire in all this, 187 00:10:15,007 --> 00:10:17,647 Speaker 2: I mean I don't really admire in any way, but 188 00:10:17,727 --> 00:10:21,767 Speaker 2: I admire their complete disregard for convention. Like for years 189 00:10:21,807 --> 00:10:25,007 Speaker 2: and decades and forever, first ladies have had to pretend. 190 00:10:25,327 --> 00:10:27,407 Speaker 2: She's not pretending, She's just going all out. 191 00:10:27,527 --> 00:10:31,047 Speaker 4: You say that, But what Milania has done here, which 192 00:10:31,127 --> 00:10:34,767 Speaker 4: is surprising, is that she's agreed to be a cog 193 00:10:35,367 --> 00:10:37,967 Speaker 4: in Trump's election campaign. 194 00:10:37,607 --> 00:10:40,767 Speaker 2: But only if it benefits her and her Christmas ornament business. 195 00:10:40,807 --> 00:10:42,927 Speaker 4: Do you think she really wanted to write this book. 196 00:10:43,127 --> 00:10:44,767 Speaker 4: I feel as though they sat down and they looked 197 00:10:44,767 --> 00:10:48,847 Speaker 4: at Trump's campaign and they went, what we need here 198 00:10:49,007 --> 00:10:52,487 Speaker 4: is Milania to say something, or to stand for something, 199 00:10:52,607 --> 00:10:56,647 Speaker 4: or to contribute to the momentum. Obviously, one of the 200 00:10:56,687 --> 00:10:59,527 Speaker 4: clips that went quite viral was the one where she 201 00:10:59,927 --> 00:11:03,127 Speaker 4: is suggesting that there was more to the assassination attempt, 202 00:11:03,127 --> 00:11:06,127 Speaker 4: and she shares the family perspective that he's someone who 203 00:11:06,167 --> 00:11:08,087 Speaker 4: you know, he's a father and he's a husband. And 204 00:11:08,607 --> 00:11:11,647 Speaker 4: how much at her what she's doing, at least in 205 00:11:11,687 --> 00:11:13,647 Speaker 4: this promotion is humanizing him. 206 00:11:14,127 --> 00:11:16,287 Speaker 2: I don't think so, though, do you know what I mean? Like, 207 00:11:16,767 --> 00:11:19,167 Speaker 2: maybe that might be a strategy if it was a 208 00:11:19,167 --> 00:11:20,567 Speaker 2: completely different strategy. 209 00:11:20,607 --> 00:11:23,487 Speaker 1: So she's talking more from the videos that have been 210 00:11:23,527 --> 00:11:27,727 Speaker 1: released so far, it's more talking politically because she's like, 211 00:11:27,767 --> 00:11:31,167 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, the election happened and it changed everything 212 00:11:31,287 --> 00:11:34,967 Speaker 1: gasoline prices, cost of living, and it's like, that's not 213 00:11:35,287 --> 00:11:38,807 Speaker 1: the perspective that I would be most interested in from you. 214 00:11:38,967 --> 00:11:41,607 Speaker 1: And look, there's also a long history of first ladies 215 00:11:41,647 --> 00:11:44,927 Speaker 1: and former first ladies writing their story, and they absolutely 216 00:11:44,967 --> 00:11:46,647 Speaker 1: should because their perspective is interesting. 217 00:11:46,767 --> 00:11:48,527 Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton just released a book this week. 218 00:11:48,607 --> 00:11:53,567 Speaker 1: Yeah, but also Michelle Obama, her extraordinary book, Becoming, which 219 00:11:53,607 --> 00:11:55,967 Speaker 1: is one of the top selling nonfiction books of all time. 220 00:11:56,767 --> 00:11:59,927 Speaker 1: I know what you're saying, Holly, that she's disregarding all 221 00:11:59,967 --> 00:12:03,887 Speaker 1: of those conventions, which is ironic her saying, you know, 222 00:12:03,967 --> 00:12:07,087 Speaker 1: the nude body's fine when her husband is so sexist 223 00:12:07,087 --> 00:12:08,487 Speaker 1: and well at all women. 224 00:12:08,487 --> 00:12:10,407 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that all his far right bodies would 225 00:12:10,447 --> 00:12:10,847 Speaker 2: agree that. 226 00:12:11,127 --> 00:12:15,087 Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you've read Michelle Obama's book, The First 227 00:12:15,247 --> 00:12:18,767 Speaker 1: First Lady of Color, what she had to do and 228 00:12:19,007 --> 00:12:22,007 Speaker 1: what she had to not do, like the tiny, tiny, 229 00:12:22,127 --> 00:12:26,047 Speaker 1: tiny little space that she had, she couldn't say this, 230 00:12:26,207 --> 00:12:28,287 Speaker 1: she couldn't be that, she couldn't do this, she couldn't 231 00:12:28,287 --> 00:12:30,007 Speaker 1: show her arm. She had to wear a hair like this, 232 00:12:30,367 --> 00:12:33,287 Speaker 1: couldn't raise her voice, all of these things, and I 233 00:12:33,287 --> 00:12:35,367 Speaker 1: guess the same qulb we said for Barack Obama compared 234 00:12:35,407 --> 00:12:39,887 Speaker 1: to Donald Trump as the first black couple. Compared to them, 235 00:12:40,127 --> 00:12:43,687 Speaker 1: it's just not fair, like the double standards are just yeah. 236 00:12:43,687 --> 00:12:46,807 Speaker 2: But again, it's strange because you know the thing that 237 00:12:46,927 --> 00:12:49,607 Speaker 2: is interesting about if this is a strategy to use 238 00:12:49,687 --> 00:12:52,447 Speaker 2: Milania to remind everybody that Trump has a wife and 239 00:12:52,447 --> 00:12:54,687 Speaker 2: a family, I don't know that that's really what this does. 240 00:12:54,927 --> 00:12:57,807 Speaker 2: Like these very stark black and white talking to the 241 00:12:57,807 --> 00:13:01,447 Speaker 2: camera about things like that relatable the videos I've watched. 242 00:13:01,567 --> 00:13:04,687 Speaker 2: It's everything from that time I renovated the rose garden 243 00:13:04,767 --> 00:13:07,487 Speaker 2: in a white house to how the election was stolen, 244 00:13:07,847 --> 00:13:10,247 Speaker 2: to the very important role I've played in this thing, 245 00:13:10,327 --> 00:13:12,127 Speaker 2: that thing to nude photos like they're. 246 00:13:12,287 --> 00:13:14,167 Speaker 4: They're not saying I love Donald and I love sitting 247 00:13:14,167 --> 00:13:15,207 Speaker 4: next to him on the couch. 248 00:13:15,327 --> 00:13:19,167 Speaker 2: It's interesting because I don't know that necessarily, given Trump's 249 00:13:19,167 --> 00:13:22,487 Speaker 2: position on race that he's been stoking hard lately, that 250 00:13:22,647 --> 00:13:25,447 Speaker 2: it is that great for his base to be reminded, 251 00:13:25,447 --> 00:13:27,727 Speaker 2: Because you know, you very rarely see Millennia's speak, right, 252 00:13:27,767 --> 00:13:30,127 Speaker 2: so when you do like like other women who you 253 00:13:30,127 --> 00:13:31,967 Speaker 2: don't see talk very often, like Kate Moss. You were 254 00:13:31,967 --> 00:13:34,887 Speaker 2: saying on Friday, Mia that when you do see her talk, 255 00:13:34,927 --> 00:13:36,327 Speaker 2: it's a bit of a jolt because you're like, oh, 256 00:13:36,327 --> 00:13:39,287 Speaker 2: that's right. And she's from Slovenia, so she has an accent. 257 00:13:39,327 --> 00:13:41,847 Speaker 2: And I wonder if the Trump's base that's probably not 258 00:13:41,887 --> 00:13:42,447 Speaker 2: a good thing. 259 00:13:42,687 --> 00:13:46,407 Speaker 4: But it's not like Trump and his team are going 260 00:13:46,447 --> 00:13:48,927 Speaker 4: to be surprised that millani are. Oh, no, of How's 261 00:13:49,167 --> 00:13:51,127 Speaker 4: And I think it's worth noting as well that Donald 262 00:13:51,127 --> 00:13:52,847 Speaker 4: Trump has said he hasn't had time to read it. 263 00:13:54,007 --> 00:13:55,807 Speaker 4: He hasn't had time to read it, but he says 264 00:13:55,887 --> 00:13:57,927 Speaker 4: you should read it unless they are bad things about 265 00:13:57,927 --> 00:14:00,647 Speaker 4: me in it, And then don't I see it as 266 00:14:00,967 --> 00:14:03,447 Speaker 4: positioning Millennia because there's got a big strategy behind this. 267 00:14:03,647 --> 00:14:05,887 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, but you're not getting a book written by Milania. 268 00:14:05,927 --> 00:14:07,007 Speaker 1: It's an always. 269 00:14:06,687 --> 00:14:10,807 Speaker 6: Strategy, but you don't sell published. Do you remember when 270 00:14:10,807 --> 00:14:13,407 Speaker 6: she wore that jacket and it said frankly, I don't 271 00:14:13,527 --> 00:14:15,967 Speaker 6: care or yeah, whatever it was when she was going 272 00:14:16,007 --> 00:14:19,007 Speaker 6: to the border to see the kids in the cages. 273 00:14:19,087 --> 00:14:21,527 Speaker 4: But she said, and I'm trying to take this from 274 00:14:21,567 --> 00:14:24,967 Speaker 4: like a perspective of a Republican or someone who supports 275 00:14:24,967 --> 00:14:26,927 Speaker 4: his family, because let's not forget half of Americans do. 276 00:14:27,487 --> 00:14:31,647 Speaker 4: She said that message was for all the media criticizing her, 277 00:14:31,687 --> 00:14:33,847 Speaker 4: and she took the jacket off before she saw the children, 278 00:14:33,887 --> 00:14:35,887 Speaker 4: and that was a way to signal to the media. 279 00:14:35,927 --> 00:14:39,887 Speaker 2: And she also the most human I've ever heard Millania sound. 280 00:14:40,047 --> 00:14:41,887 Speaker 2: And I don't mean in any way the way she speaks, 281 00:14:41,887 --> 00:14:44,367 Speaker 2: but in terms of what she's saying. Is in the 282 00:14:44,487 --> 00:14:46,967 Speaker 2: leaked phone call that we referenced earlier where she said, 283 00:14:47,087 --> 00:14:49,847 Speaker 2: who gives a fuck about Christmas? She was complaining about 284 00:14:49,847 --> 00:14:51,887 Speaker 2: the criticism that she gets in the media, and she 285 00:14:51,927 --> 00:14:54,287 Speaker 2: did sound like an actual human being, and she was saying, 286 00:14:54,287 --> 00:14:56,687 Speaker 2: they don't care what I think about those children, They 287 00:14:56,687 --> 00:14:58,287 Speaker 2: don't care about this, or that they want me to 288 00:14:58,327 --> 00:14:59,767 Speaker 2: give it into you Fox. I don't want to give 289 00:14:59,767 --> 00:15:02,447 Speaker 2: an interview to Fox like she. I think that Millennia 290 00:15:02,567 --> 00:15:05,687 Speaker 2: is much harder to manage and handle and put in 291 00:15:05,687 --> 00:15:08,127 Speaker 2: a neat little box for Trump than a lot of 292 00:15:08,167 --> 00:15:08,887 Speaker 2: other first ladies. 293 00:15:08,927 --> 00:15:10,807 Speaker 4: See. I think that when they came up with a plan, 294 00:15:10,887 --> 00:15:13,767 Speaker 4: and they came up with what Trump's campaign would look like, 295 00:15:13,967 --> 00:15:15,847 Speaker 4: this was part of the strategy. This was very much 296 00:15:15,887 --> 00:15:18,647 Speaker 4: part of the strategy, and there were things that are 297 00:15:18,727 --> 00:15:21,607 Speaker 4: intentionally like for example, the framing of Millennia as a 298 00:15:21,647 --> 00:15:24,007 Speaker 4: mother and her talking about loving motherhood, Like I think 299 00:15:24,047 --> 00:15:25,287 Speaker 4: that's important for a first lady. 300 00:15:25,487 --> 00:15:27,927 Speaker 2: Is the selling of ornaments and jewelry fit into that? 301 00:15:28,527 --> 00:15:31,487 Speaker 1: Oh well, I guess it's Is it grift or is 302 00:15:31,527 --> 00:15:34,807 Speaker 1: it like think, well, it's not raising money for anyone, 303 00:15:34,967 --> 00:15:36,247 Speaker 1: like if it's not a lot. 304 00:15:36,167 --> 00:15:38,527 Speaker 3: Of people release books, so they're not raising money. 305 00:15:38,727 --> 00:15:41,047 Speaker 1: I mean the Christmas ornaments, like the Christmas ornaments is 306 00:15:41,087 --> 00:15:44,007 Speaker 1: pure grift. But what I love about Milania the only 307 00:15:44,087 --> 00:15:46,687 Speaker 1: thing is that she's been quite quitting since before that 308 00:15:46,767 --> 00:15:49,847 Speaker 1: was even a thing. Yes, she's been quite quitting her 309 00:15:49,927 --> 00:15:52,167 Speaker 1: role as a wife. She hates all this stuff, quite 310 00:15:52,287 --> 00:15:55,487 Speaker 1: quit as a first lady, like pretty much the only 311 00:15:55,527 --> 00:15:58,967 Speaker 1: achievement she had was redesigning the Rose Garden and her 312 00:15:59,087 --> 00:16:03,007 Speaker 1: be Best campaign, which actually no one could understand what 313 00:16:03,087 --> 00:16:05,927 Speaker 1: it was for and what it meant. So I think 314 00:16:05,967 --> 00:16:08,607 Speaker 1: by all objective measures, she was pretty ineffective first lady, 315 00:16:08,647 --> 00:16:12,327 Speaker 1: And yet everyone expected her to split with him after 316 00:16:13,287 --> 00:16:15,487 Speaker 1: they left the White House. That's why I find she 317 00:16:15,607 --> 00:16:17,727 Speaker 1: didn't so she obviously signed on for a. 318 00:16:17,647 --> 00:16:21,007 Speaker 4: New isn't very quiet quitting of her. This is a 319 00:16:21,087 --> 00:16:23,287 Speaker 4: nice Again. 320 00:16:23,487 --> 00:16:25,607 Speaker 2: I don't think it's good strategy to have the first 321 00:16:25,687 --> 00:16:27,927 Speaker 2: Lady release a book one month before the election. I 322 00:16:27,967 --> 00:16:30,287 Speaker 2: think you wait for that because it could be depending 323 00:16:30,327 --> 00:16:31,927 Speaker 2: what was in that book. And there isn't going to 324 00:16:31,927 --> 00:16:34,287 Speaker 2: be anything silatious in the book, apart from the nude photos, 325 00:16:34,287 --> 00:16:36,687 Speaker 2: which will be fun. If there was anything slacious in it. 326 00:16:36,687 --> 00:16:39,127 Speaker 2: It pulls focus. It's distracting. Da da da da da, 327 00:16:39,167 --> 00:16:42,567 Speaker 2: like in a conventional campaign, that would all come later, 328 00:16:42,727 --> 00:16:45,367 Speaker 2: Like you don't want that to happen. This is what 329 00:16:45,407 --> 00:16:47,767 Speaker 2: I mean about them, is that they just do these 330 00:16:47,807 --> 00:16:51,207 Speaker 2: crazy things. And I think that Milania my read on 331 00:16:51,287 --> 00:16:54,727 Speaker 2: her as always reading and watching things about supermodels and 332 00:16:54,767 --> 00:16:57,127 Speaker 2: all that, and that era of time when she started 333 00:16:57,207 --> 00:17:00,167 Speaker 2: dating Trump and married Trump. I don't think this is 334 00:17:00,167 --> 00:17:02,647 Speaker 2: what she ever signed up for. Right she thought, I'm 335 00:17:02,647 --> 00:17:04,487 Speaker 2: marrying a rich dude. I'm going to get to live 336 00:17:04,487 --> 00:17:07,127 Speaker 2: in my fancy house in New York and have my 337 00:17:07,207 --> 00:17:11,247 Speaker 2: child and just basically be a rich lady in New York. 338 00:17:11,367 --> 00:17:13,087 Speaker 2: She didn't sign up for any of this, and you 339 00:17:13,167 --> 00:17:15,847 Speaker 2: can tell how much she hates it all the time, 340 00:17:15,887 --> 00:17:17,687 Speaker 2: and I don't know, I find that kind of appealing 341 00:17:17,967 --> 00:17:18,487 Speaker 2: out louders. 342 00:17:18,527 --> 00:17:20,207 Speaker 1: If you want to stay up to date with what's 343 00:17:20,207 --> 00:17:22,407 Speaker 1: happening in the US, there's two types of people, the 344 00:17:22,407 --> 00:17:25,767 Speaker 1: ones who are living for election coverage and the ones 345 00:17:25,927 --> 00:17:28,367 Speaker 1: who do not want to hear a word of it. 346 00:17:28,967 --> 00:17:30,887 Speaker 1: Now it's a great time to become a subscriber because 347 00:17:30,887 --> 00:17:33,087 Speaker 1: every week we've been inviting friend of the poet to 348 00:17:33,127 --> 00:17:36,487 Speaker 1: the incredibly knowledgeable Amelia lest onto the show to unpack 349 00:17:36,567 --> 00:17:39,487 Speaker 1: everything in US politics. I could listen to her for days. 350 00:17:39,887 --> 00:17:41,887 Speaker 1: You can listen to all of those episodes. There'll be 351 00:17:41,927 --> 00:17:44,007 Speaker 1: another one coming this week via the link in our 352 00:17:44,047 --> 00:17:44,967 Speaker 1: show notes. 353 00:17:46,167 --> 00:17:50,367 Speaker 5: The challenges and rewards of motherhood, from sleepless nights to 354 00:17:50,527 --> 00:17:56,647 Speaker 5: joyful milestones, bring immense fulfillment which only a mother understands. 355 00:17:56,927 --> 00:18:01,647 Speaker 4: Hell yoga boobs, fashion boobs, the desire for a bra 356 00:18:01,767 --> 00:18:05,007 Speaker 4: la summer. According to The New York Times, small breaths 357 00:18:05,127 --> 00:18:07,887 Speaker 4: have newfound power and they are all the rage in 358 00:18:07,927 --> 00:18:11,687 Speaker 4: the clinics of cosmetics surgents in the US, the biggest 359 00:18:11,727 --> 00:18:14,487 Speaker 4: increase in people who are getting breast reductions is in 360 00:18:14,527 --> 00:18:19,127 Speaker 4: women under thirty, but this rise isn't just happening overseas. 361 00:18:19,447 --> 00:18:22,367 Speaker 4: Last year, it was reported that breast reductions in Australia 362 00:18:22,567 --> 00:18:25,807 Speaker 4: had tripled over the three years before, and there has 363 00:18:25,847 --> 00:18:29,047 Speaker 4: been a push to make the surgery more accessible through Medicare. 364 00:18:29,607 --> 00:18:31,727 Speaker 4: I believe it covers some of the surgery, that's if 365 00:18:31,727 --> 00:18:34,887 Speaker 4: it's causing other health issues, but there's still a considerable gap. 366 00:18:35,287 --> 00:18:38,047 Speaker 4: The New York Times reports that patients used to ask 367 00:18:38,167 --> 00:18:40,007 Speaker 4: for sea cups. With reduction, it was like, I want 368 00:18:40,047 --> 00:18:42,447 Speaker 4: my sea cup, and now they're more likely to request 369 00:18:42,527 --> 00:18:46,767 Speaker 4: a B cup. Many of the patients are young, postpartum mothers. 370 00:18:47,407 --> 00:18:51,487 Speaker 4: The writer Lisa Miller concludes to decide to reduce them, 371 00:18:51,567 --> 00:18:54,127 Speaker 4: to make them lighter, smaller, easier to carry and cover, 372 00:18:54,287 --> 00:18:56,607 Speaker 4: more discreet, can be seen as an act of self 373 00:18:56,647 --> 00:19:00,807 Speaker 4: love and empowerment, a woman's prioritization finally, of her own 374 00:19:00,887 --> 00:19:05,647 Speaker 4: comfort and independence over what others have traditionally found sexy. 375 00:19:05,767 --> 00:19:07,647 Speaker 4: She writes that on the other hand, it can be 376 00:19:07,687 --> 00:19:11,007 Speaker 4: interpreted as self loathing, an agreement with a sexist culture 377 00:19:11,007 --> 00:19:14,367 Speaker 4: that can also regard larger breasts that aren't youthfully round 378 00:19:14,407 --> 00:19:20,287 Speaker 4: and upright as repulsive, droopy, flabby, jiggly, hard, to contain, Holly, 379 00:19:21,047 --> 00:19:23,687 Speaker 4: why do you think that small breasts everywhere? 380 00:19:24,287 --> 00:19:26,807 Speaker 2: Don't you just love it when it's arbitrarily decided that 381 00:19:26,847 --> 00:19:27,887 Speaker 2: parts of our bodies are. 382 00:19:27,767 --> 00:19:30,367 Speaker 3: Out of fashion. Yeah, it just happens all the time. 383 00:19:30,447 --> 00:19:32,647 Speaker 2: Just deal with that. Those boobs are not on trend. 384 00:19:32,887 --> 00:19:36,167 Speaker 2: Sort them out, won't you. But if we are accepting 385 00:19:36,207 --> 00:19:38,647 Speaker 2: the fact that there are body trends and that women 386 00:19:38,807 --> 00:19:41,647 Speaker 2: are adhering to them, I reckon this fits with two 387 00:19:41,687 --> 00:19:43,367 Speaker 2: trends at the moment. The fact that younger women in 388 00:19:43,407 --> 00:19:47,207 Speaker 2: particular want smaller boobs, a move away from the Kardashian 389 00:19:47,247 --> 00:19:49,167 Speaker 2: body and all the things that come along with that, 390 00:19:49,327 --> 00:19:51,607 Speaker 2: the curves. You know, we've seen it a lot on 391 00:19:51,727 --> 00:19:54,247 Speaker 2: red carpets, and we've seen it in that we're kind 392 00:19:54,247 --> 00:19:59,487 Speaker 2: of moving back culturally towards the skinny size zero aesthetic aesthetic, 393 00:20:00,087 --> 00:20:05,287 Speaker 2: and that's much cooler and then possibly a little more positively, 394 00:20:05,847 --> 00:20:08,767 Speaker 2: I'd say, the other trend is women giving fewer f's 395 00:20:08,767 --> 00:20:11,527 Speaker 2: about them. We've talked a lot about how all the 396 00:20:11,607 --> 00:20:14,807 Speaker 2: cool artists are young females at the minute, and Chapel 397 00:20:14,847 --> 00:20:16,687 Speaker 2: Rohane has this song where she talks about her type 398 00:20:16,687 --> 00:20:18,807 Speaker 2: and she's like, no long hair, no bra, and you. 399 00:20:18,767 --> 00:20:20,367 Speaker 3: Know exactly what she means. 400 00:20:20,807 --> 00:20:25,407 Speaker 2: There is a cool girl vibe that is very no 401 00:20:25,527 --> 00:20:29,647 Speaker 2: bra that only works if your boobs are little. Anybody 402 00:20:29,687 --> 00:20:32,127 Speaker 2: listening to this who has big boobs, and there will 403 00:20:32,167 --> 00:20:34,727 Speaker 2: be many many women go, yeah, it would be nice 404 00:20:34,767 --> 00:20:37,447 Speaker 2: to have little boobies that can just hop around with No, 405 00:20:37,967 --> 00:20:40,487 Speaker 2: that's not how it works the most of us. 406 00:20:40,527 --> 00:20:43,967 Speaker 4: The other trend there, though, I reckon is youth, so 407 00:20:44,327 --> 00:20:49,007 Speaker 4: like it's about smaller breasts are code for younger because 408 00:20:49,087 --> 00:20:52,807 Speaker 4: often if you've had babies, or if your menopausal or whatever, 409 00:20:53,247 --> 00:20:55,487 Speaker 4: the shape of your body changes. So there is something 410 00:20:56,047 --> 00:20:58,847 Speaker 4: I imagine like small breath and the braless thing. And 411 00:20:59,207 --> 00:21:01,487 Speaker 4: fashion is now the youth have such a hold on 412 00:21:01,527 --> 00:21:05,367 Speaker 4: all things fashion, which is like you know, no bras underneath, 413 00:21:05,567 --> 00:21:07,807 Speaker 4: or like the tops with all the cutouts and stuff 414 00:21:07,967 --> 00:21:08,527 Speaker 4: you need to. 415 00:21:08,487 --> 00:21:10,767 Speaker 2: Have you do. And also but I also think that 416 00:21:10,807 --> 00:21:13,327 Speaker 2: if there was anything positive in it, right, is that 417 00:21:13,367 --> 00:21:16,367 Speaker 2: if women have the financial power increasingly all the time 418 00:21:16,407 --> 00:21:18,327 Speaker 2: to be able to go this is the surgery I 419 00:21:18,367 --> 00:21:22,287 Speaker 2: want it could be seen as somehow positive, that it's 420 00:21:22,327 --> 00:21:25,447 Speaker 2: not this male fantasy of like bigger, bigger, bigger. It's 421 00:21:25,487 --> 00:21:28,367 Speaker 2: more like I know that having big boobs is I 422 00:21:28,367 --> 00:21:30,607 Speaker 2: don't mean I I mean one. I know that big 423 00:21:30,687 --> 00:21:33,767 Speaker 2: boobs can come with a lot of pain, discomfort, hiking 424 00:21:33,807 --> 00:21:35,487 Speaker 2: them around, having men's start, and all the time, you 425 00:21:35,527 --> 00:21:38,167 Speaker 2: know what, I'd like, smaller boobs. It's interesting when you 426 00:21:38,287 --> 00:21:40,487 Speaker 2: ask women what they want and they've got the power 427 00:21:40,487 --> 00:21:42,287 Speaker 2: to have it, they'll often say something different. 428 00:21:43,007 --> 00:21:46,207 Speaker 1: I would love smaller boobs for esthetic reasons only exactly, 429 00:21:46,287 --> 00:21:48,567 Speaker 1: and models have always had no boobs, right, And for 430 00:21:48,647 --> 00:21:51,727 Speaker 1: me it's different. It's not well, of course, I'm partly 431 00:21:51,927 --> 00:21:56,007 Speaker 1: influenced by the culture, but also I just don't feel 432 00:21:56,087 --> 00:22:00,127 Speaker 1: like their mind. Because I always had pretty small boobs 433 00:22:00,807 --> 00:22:05,327 Speaker 1: until perimenopause, when my boobs grew and they're now probably 434 00:22:05,327 --> 00:22:08,927 Speaker 1: a double D. I feel like they're not connected to me. 435 00:22:09,447 --> 00:22:12,287 Speaker 1: I don't feel like myself. And your body changes in 436 00:22:12,327 --> 00:22:14,487 Speaker 1: lots of ways as you get older, whether you've had 437 00:22:14,567 --> 00:22:18,607 Speaker 1: kids or not, and one of them is for many women, 438 00:22:18,687 --> 00:22:20,687 Speaker 1: your boobs get bigger. And I often think that that 439 00:22:20,807 --> 00:22:23,767 Speaker 1: must be difficult if you've had an augmentation when you 440 00:22:23,807 --> 00:22:27,007 Speaker 1: were younger. But they don't grow in like a perky way. 441 00:22:27,447 --> 00:22:30,287 Speaker 1: Even this morning, I didn't have that feeling of my 442 00:22:30,407 --> 00:22:33,727 Speaker 1: boobs touching my stomach when I bent over or something, 443 00:22:34,247 --> 00:22:35,807 Speaker 1: and I think there might have even been a little 444 00:22:35,807 --> 00:22:39,007 Speaker 1: slapping sound, and it's just I like it. 445 00:22:39,367 --> 00:22:43,007 Speaker 4: I was watching scenes from Friends because we're doing Friends 446 00:22:43,007 --> 00:22:46,567 Speaker 4: for canceled next week. I was going very deep on 447 00:22:46,607 --> 00:22:48,887 Speaker 4: fat Monica. Do you remember the fat Monica carrack. 448 00:22:48,807 --> 00:22:50,687 Speaker 1: When she'd wear a fats she'd wear a fat seed in. 449 00:22:50,647 --> 00:22:52,567 Speaker 2: The flashback, something that we don't do now. 450 00:22:52,727 --> 00:22:54,327 Speaker 3: We do not do that now. It was very of 451 00:22:54,367 --> 00:22:54,767 Speaker 3: the moment. 452 00:22:54,847 --> 00:22:56,767 Speaker 4: But if you look at photos of fat Monica, the 453 00:22:56,807 --> 00:22:59,407 Speaker 4: first thing you'll notice is it she's not fat. The 454 00:22:59,447 --> 00:23:01,447 Speaker 4: second thing you'll notice is she just has breasts. She 455 00:23:01,487 --> 00:23:05,247 Speaker 4: has breasts and hips. And I look at Courtney Cox 456 00:23:05,247 --> 00:23:06,767 Speaker 4: and who she was, and there's a whole thing to 457 00:23:06,767 --> 00:23:09,247 Speaker 4: be read there about how she was basically a clown 458 00:23:09,607 --> 00:23:14,447 Speaker 4: and mocked in those flashbacks. But I went, oh, that 459 00:23:14,527 --> 00:23:17,687 Speaker 4: body in the nineties was coded, even the way that 460 00:23:17,727 --> 00:23:21,727 Speaker 4: you'd skin dressed, the curvy body was coded as fat. 461 00:23:21,967 --> 00:23:25,167 Speaker 4: And then the Kardashians came along and kind of changed 462 00:23:25,367 --> 00:23:28,487 Speaker 4: change that. But now they're getting everything reversed. I think 463 00:23:28,487 --> 00:23:33,607 Speaker 4: the other element at play is exercise. So with women 464 00:23:34,087 --> 00:23:38,407 Speaker 4: prioritizing exercise more than we ever have, whether it's running 465 00:23:38,487 --> 00:23:41,007 Speaker 4: or going to the gym or or whatever. The size 466 00:23:41,007 --> 00:23:43,287 Speaker 4: of your boobs has an enormous impact on your mobility and. 467 00:23:43,327 --> 00:23:44,047 Speaker 3: Literally can do. 468 00:23:44,127 --> 00:23:47,807 Speaker 1: Fact, I have to wear something called a shock absorber 469 00:23:47,847 --> 00:23:50,487 Speaker 1: bra under my sports bra. I have to wear two 470 00:23:50,567 --> 00:23:52,967 Speaker 1: and it cost are more than one hundred dollars. So 471 00:23:53,007 --> 00:23:55,127 Speaker 1: it's like there's a tax on having big boobs. 472 00:23:55,127 --> 00:23:58,647 Speaker 2: There definitely is. One of my oldest best friends has really, 473 00:23:58,727 --> 00:24:00,607 Speaker 2: really big boobs. We were used to joke when we 474 00:24:00,607 --> 00:24:02,607 Speaker 2: were at high school that she was saving up for 475 00:24:02,647 --> 00:24:05,807 Speaker 2: a breast reduction. Right, she never actually got one. She's 476 00:24:05,847 --> 00:24:08,767 Speaker 2: spent all of her life figuring out how to dress 477 00:24:08,807 --> 00:24:12,047 Speaker 2: that dress around her boobs, what swimwear to wear around 478 00:24:12,047 --> 00:24:14,527 Speaker 2: her boobs, what broad to wear around her boobs. Like 479 00:24:15,247 --> 00:24:17,847 Speaker 2: any conversation like this would drive her nuts because she'd 480 00:24:17,887 --> 00:24:20,767 Speaker 2: be like, you don't understand, Like, boobs aren't just these 481 00:24:20,807 --> 00:24:23,287 Speaker 2: fun things. If you've got really big boobs, it impacts 482 00:24:23,327 --> 00:24:26,487 Speaker 2: all kinds of things and is very expensive. But it's 483 00:24:26,607 --> 00:24:29,287 Speaker 2: interesting to me that it's always been a bit of 484 00:24:29,327 --> 00:24:32,247 Speaker 2: a status symbol. Well, certainly back to the friend Zierra 485 00:24:32,367 --> 00:24:34,607 Speaker 2: that you're talking about Jesse. That was the last time 486 00:24:34,647 --> 00:24:36,847 Speaker 2: it was really cool to be really skinny. If you 487 00:24:36,887 --> 00:24:40,167 Speaker 2: watch TV from that time, late nineties, early noughties, it 488 00:24:40,207 --> 00:24:42,247 Speaker 2: was size zero, it was tiny, skinny, it was no bra, 489 00:24:42,367 --> 00:24:45,847 Speaker 2: it was visible nipples. It was cool to be skinny. 490 00:24:46,127 --> 00:24:49,287 Speaker 2: And we're back there. Apparently, when you lose weight, your 491 00:24:49,327 --> 00:24:52,767 Speaker 2: boobs shrink quite dramatically, and that immediately gives you a 492 00:24:52,847 --> 00:24:56,047 Speaker 2: very different look in your clothes. But equally, as you say, 493 00:24:56,087 --> 00:24:58,407 Speaker 2: if you've got really big boobs, it doesn't matter how 494 00:24:58,487 --> 00:25:01,567 Speaker 2: much weight you lose, you're always gonna look bigger. And so, 495 00:25:01,967 --> 00:25:04,087 Speaker 2: because we live in a fat phobic society that thinks 496 00:25:04,087 --> 00:25:06,287 Speaker 2: all women should take up as little space as possible, 497 00:25:06,887 --> 00:25:11,647 Speaker 2: those boobs are really unfashioned. I guess it's really interesting. 498 00:25:11,767 --> 00:25:14,567 Speaker 1: Out louders tell us what do you think is the 499 00:25:14,647 --> 00:25:18,087 Speaker 1: size or the age where you go from having boobs 500 00:25:18,127 --> 00:25:22,127 Speaker 1: to having a bosom? Because I think I'm int the 501 00:25:22,167 --> 00:25:24,207 Speaker 1: bosom age and I don't like it. 502 00:25:27,207 --> 00:25:30,567 Speaker 4: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of MUMMYA 503 00:25:30,567 --> 00:25:34,127 Speaker 4: out Loud just from MUMMYA. Subscribers follow the link in 504 00:25:34,167 --> 00:25:36,127 Speaker 4: the show notes to get your daily dose of out 505 00:25:36,167 --> 00:25:39,487 Speaker 4: Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers. 506 00:25:47,127 --> 00:25:52,087 Speaker 2: Take it down. Unfair, uncomfortable and sad to watch. People 507 00:25:52,167 --> 00:25:55,807 Speaker 2: magazine posted a clip of an exclusive interview with Hayden 508 00:25:55,807 --> 00:25:59,407 Speaker 2: Panettier last week, and plenty of people said that they 509 00:25:59,527 --> 00:26:02,687 Speaker 2: shouldn't have for a bit of context. Panetier is an 510 00:26:02,727 --> 00:26:05,447 Speaker 2: actress who blew up in the naughties on a show 511 00:26:05,527 --> 00:26:08,687 Speaker 2: called Heroes, and almost as soon as her star rows, 512 00:26:08,727 --> 00:26:11,927 Speaker 2: she became a tabloid fixture. Everyone was looking at her body. 513 00:26:12,007 --> 00:26:15,607 Speaker 2: She had on off relationship, there were rumors of substance abuse, 514 00:26:15,967 --> 00:26:19,167 Speaker 2: a well publicized episode of postnatal depression. After the birth 515 00:26:19,207 --> 00:26:21,887 Speaker 2: of her daughter, she searched back in the public censure 516 00:26:21,887 --> 00:26:23,767 Speaker 2: when she appeared on Nashville. We were all obsessed with that. 517 00:26:24,127 --> 00:26:26,447 Speaker 2: She was the singer Juliette Barnes in a role that 518 00:26:26,527 --> 00:26:28,607 Speaker 2: echoed a lot of what happened in her real life. 519 00:26:28,687 --> 00:26:30,047 Speaker 3: Right, good point. 520 00:26:30,087 --> 00:26:33,247 Speaker 2: I hadn't yeh addiction and that was a bit part 521 00:26:33,327 --> 00:26:35,767 Speaker 2: of why everybody was obsessed with her in that part. 522 00:26:36,167 --> 00:26:39,687 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, she said in People magazine actually 523 00:26:39,967 --> 00:26:42,927 Speaker 2: that she had received treatment for alcohol and opiate addiction. 524 00:26:43,367 --> 00:26:45,647 Speaker 2: She also said that this dated back to her being 525 00:26:45,647 --> 00:26:47,847 Speaker 2: a child star. She said that she was only fifteen 526 00:26:48,007 --> 00:26:50,527 Speaker 2: when people on her team started offering her what they 527 00:26:50,567 --> 00:26:53,527 Speaker 2: called happy pills when she was doing publicity. They were 528 00:26:53,527 --> 00:26:56,287 Speaker 2: to make me peppy during interviews. She said, I had 529 00:26:56,327 --> 00:26:58,847 Speaker 2: no idea that this was not an appropriate thing or 530 00:26:58,847 --> 00:27:00,807 Speaker 2: what door that would open for me when it came 531 00:27:00,847 --> 00:27:04,487 Speaker 2: to my addiction. Fast forward to last week, after quite 532 00:27:04,567 --> 00:27:07,287 Speaker 2: some time out of the media, she gave an interview 533 00:27:07,327 --> 00:27:09,127 Speaker 2: to People, and in it she talked about the loss 534 00:27:09,127 --> 00:27:12,407 Speaker 2: of her brother, who died last year from complications caused 535 00:27:12,407 --> 00:27:15,767 Speaker 2: by an enlarged heart. Here's a little bit of that interview. 536 00:27:16,087 --> 00:27:20,167 Speaker 7: Losing my little brother's there's nothing like I mean, he 537 00:27:20,287 --> 00:27:24,207 Speaker 7: was my only sibling, and he was my younger sibling, 538 00:27:24,567 --> 00:27:29,207 Speaker 7: and it was my job to protect him and my 539 00:27:29,367 --> 00:27:33,327 Speaker 7: lost him. They felt like I lost half of my soul. 540 00:27:33,647 --> 00:27:36,767 Speaker 7: I remember saying to somebody, and it hadn't even been 541 00:27:36,807 --> 00:27:41,167 Speaker 7: a year, and I was like, don't ever ever expect 542 00:27:41,247 --> 00:27:44,527 Speaker 7: me to get over the loss of him. 543 00:27:44,807 --> 00:27:47,447 Speaker 2: It immediately attracted a lot of criticism from people saying, 544 00:27:47,447 --> 00:27:50,967 Speaker 2: Paul Hayden, obviously not so, but do better. People, I'm 545 00:27:51,007 --> 00:27:53,807 Speaker 2: shocked that this is posted. It's uncomfortable and sad. To watch. 546 00:27:53,927 --> 00:27:56,647 Speaker 1: Can you describe how it looked whole, because you could 547 00:27:56,647 --> 00:27:58,807 Speaker 1: listen to that and you could go, oh, that doesn't 548 00:27:58,847 --> 00:27:59,527 Speaker 1: sound so bad. 549 00:27:59,647 --> 00:28:01,647 Speaker 3: Maybe she just sounds did look well. 550 00:28:01,687 --> 00:28:04,487 Speaker 2: It's a relatively close cut of her face. The way 551 00:28:04,527 --> 00:28:07,047 Speaker 2: I would describe it, she looks quite blank. Also, her 552 00:28:07,087 --> 00:28:12,607 Speaker 2: eyes are half closed, closing glassy. The noise got so 553 00:28:12,727 --> 00:28:15,087 Speaker 2: loud that she's had to release a statement. She said, 554 00:28:15,087 --> 00:28:17,207 Speaker 2: I'd like to take a moment to address the controversy. 555 00:28:17,247 --> 00:28:20,167 Speaker 2: It's unfathomable, but that I have to. Then she talks 556 00:28:20,207 --> 00:28:22,727 Speaker 2: about the fact that she was exhausted. She said she 557 00:28:22,767 --> 00:28:25,207 Speaker 2: hadn't slept for two days due to one of her dogs, 558 00:28:25,247 --> 00:28:28,527 Speaker 2: who was recovering from a surgical procedure. She said her 559 00:28:28,567 --> 00:28:31,127 Speaker 2: rep stopped the interview early as it became obvious that 560 00:28:31,167 --> 00:28:33,967 Speaker 2: I was fading, especially on this as the subject matter 561 00:28:34,007 --> 00:28:36,847 Speaker 2: became heavier. We asked the interviewer if we could redo 562 00:28:36,887 --> 00:28:39,287 Speaker 2: it another day or do a follow up interview on zoom. 563 00:28:39,647 --> 00:28:41,927 Speaker 2: She assured us it wasn't necessary and that she felt 564 00:28:41,967 --> 00:28:44,727 Speaker 2: it was an emotional and heartfelt interview. We were also 565 00:28:44,807 --> 00:28:46,647 Speaker 2: told that they would edit it and it would be 566 00:28:46,687 --> 00:28:49,487 Speaker 2: a beautiful piece. She's worked with people lots of times. 567 00:28:49,487 --> 00:28:52,287 Speaker 2: As we've said. She also said grief looks different on everyone. 568 00:28:52,487 --> 00:28:54,847 Speaker 2: Whether or not I'm on medication is none of anyone's 569 00:28:54,887 --> 00:28:57,607 Speaker 2: business and is between me and my doctor. I'm doing 570 00:28:57,727 --> 00:29:00,087 Speaker 2: interviews to promote my new film because I'm proud of it. 571 00:29:00,127 --> 00:29:02,727 Speaker 2: The real issue here is the toxicity of social media 572 00:29:03,007 --> 00:29:06,287 Speaker 2: and a news cycle driven by clickbait. As we record 573 00:29:06,327 --> 00:29:09,167 Speaker 2: the show, the interview is still up on People. So 574 00:29:10,087 --> 00:29:14,087 Speaker 2: despite growing calls for its removal, Jesse should it stay. 575 00:29:14,247 --> 00:29:17,007 Speaker 4: On the cover of People magazine. It's a picture of 576 00:29:17,247 --> 00:29:20,087 Speaker 4: her looking really great in this picture, and it comes 577 00:29:20,087 --> 00:29:23,047 Speaker 4: with the text I'm starting to feel like myself again. 578 00:29:23,687 --> 00:29:26,927 Speaker 4: So people probably knew that there was going to be 579 00:29:26,967 --> 00:29:30,327 Speaker 4: a stark contrast between what she was saying and how 580 00:29:30,367 --> 00:29:36,127 Speaker 4: she was coming across. I do think that speculating about 581 00:29:36,287 --> 00:29:39,767 Speaker 4: what she was potentially on isn't very helpful, because I 582 00:29:39,807 --> 00:29:42,727 Speaker 4: also know that there are a lot of medications for 583 00:29:42,927 --> 00:29:45,967 Speaker 4: mental health issues that can have those same side effects. 584 00:29:46,047 --> 00:29:49,727 Speaker 4: Because she was slurring, she appeared a bit foggy, and 585 00:29:50,007 --> 00:29:51,847 Speaker 4: I mean, I've had that experience if you're trying to 586 00:29:51,847 --> 00:29:54,127 Speaker 4: get your dosage right or whatever. The people I look 587 00:29:54,127 --> 00:29:57,327 Speaker 4: at in this story and go what were you thinking? 588 00:29:57,407 --> 00:30:00,327 Speaker 4: I just had people. It's like, there should be people 589 00:30:00,327 --> 00:30:03,607 Speaker 4: in the room looking out for you, and within five minutes, 590 00:30:04,207 --> 00:30:05,807 Speaker 4: if it's not going how you want it, to go, 591 00:30:05,927 --> 00:30:09,647 Speaker 4: pull the plug. If she wasn't feeling great days up 592 00:30:09,647 --> 00:30:12,727 Speaker 4: to it, paul the plug. But they clearly didn't do 593 00:30:12,767 --> 00:30:14,447 Speaker 4: that until it was too late. 594 00:30:14,847 --> 00:30:17,327 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really torn about this because you know what 595 00:30:17,407 --> 00:30:20,767 Speaker 1: I think about it's not the media's role to protect people, 596 00:30:21,367 --> 00:30:25,327 Speaker 1: people who are wealthy and famous, and that's not the 597 00:30:25,367 --> 00:30:27,407 Speaker 1: media's job. It's not to be their publicist, it's not 598 00:30:27,447 --> 00:30:28,287 Speaker 1: to be their mother. 599 00:30:28,407 --> 00:30:30,127 Speaker 4: Especially when they want to speak. And this is a 600 00:30:30,207 --> 00:30:32,247 Speaker 4: mass of difference with Andrew O'Keefe, which we were talking 601 00:30:32,247 --> 00:30:34,687 Speaker 4: about last week, is that he's not saying, hey, listen 602 00:30:34,687 --> 00:30:38,287 Speaker 4: to me, give me a microphone. He's being stalked by paparazzi. 603 00:30:38,367 --> 00:30:42,327 Speaker 4: This was she was fully consenting, fully, I'm ready to 604 00:30:42,367 --> 00:30:43,087 Speaker 4: sit down and talk. 605 00:30:43,127 --> 00:30:46,367 Speaker 1: She's on the publicity trail for this new comeback that 606 00:30:46,487 --> 00:30:49,207 Speaker 1: she's done where she plays a character who tries to 607 00:30:49,247 --> 00:30:53,847 Speaker 1: save a child who's been abducted. But where the tension 608 00:30:53,927 --> 00:30:56,927 Speaker 1: is for me is I watched the whole interview and 609 00:30:56,967 --> 00:30:58,647 Speaker 1: not all of it was about. Her point was that 610 00:30:58,687 --> 00:31:00,567 Speaker 1: it was a heavy subject matter. That's why I was 611 00:31:00,607 --> 00:31:03,687 Speaker 1: seemed upset. I watched the whole interview, which was more 612 00:31:03,727 --> 00:31:06,327 Speaker 1: than ten minutes, and it covered a whole lot of 613 00:31:06,327 --> 00:31:10,207 Speaker 1: different things. She talked about her child, very sad story 614 00:31:10,247 --> 00:31:13,287 Speaker 1: because when her daughter was three, Kaya Hayden went into 615 00:31:13,327 --> 00:31:17,007 Speaker 1: rehab and she'd already split from the child's father at 616 00:31:17,007 --> 00:31:20,287 Speaker 1: that time. He was a hockey player, professional athlete, and 617 00:31:20,367 --> 00:31:23,647 Speaker 1: he took custody and then she ended up losing custody, 618 00:31:23,647 --> 00:31:25,407 Speaker 1: and she said she did a red table talk with 619 00:31:25,607 --> 00:31:28,367 Speaker 1: Jada Pinkett Smith and said, I thought it was just 620 00:31:28,407 --> 00:31:29,687 Speaker 1: going to be temporary, that she was going to go 621 00:31:29,687 --> 00:31:31,047 Speaker 1: and live with her dad, and then it ended up 622 00:31:31,047 --> 00:31:33,807 Speaker 1: being permanent. And so now Kaya lives not in the 623 00:31:33,887 --> 00:31:36,007 Speaker 1: Ukraine but in Europe and has done I think she's 624 00:31:36,007 --> 00:31:39,967 Speaker 1: about nine or ten now. And Hayden talks about her 625 00:31:40,007 --> 00:31:43,567 Speaker 1: also in this interview in a lovely way as a mother, 626 00:31:43,607 --> 00:31:47,007 Speaker 1: but clearly a mother who doesn't live with her child 627 00:31:47,727 --> 00:31:51,287 Speaker 1: and isn't intimately familiar with her child's life and what's 628 00:31:51,327 --> 00:31:54,727 Speaker 1: going on. So that's all just a bit of context, 629 00:31:54,927 --> 00:31:56,567 Speaker 1: and it's true. I went back and looked at some 630 00:31:56,607 --> 00:31:58,847 Speaker 1: other interviews that she'd done in the last few years, 631 00:31:58,887 --> 00:32:01,967 Speaker 1: and she does speak slowly, but this was different. Again, 632 00:32:02,007 --> 00:32:04,807 Speaker 1: the tension in it for me is they did some 633 00:32:04,887 --> 00:32:08,047 Speaker 1: cutaways to vision and photos that they'd done in this 634 00:32:08,127 --> 00:32:10,367 Speaker 1: shoot before the interview. She said in her statement it 635 00:32:10,367 --> 00:32:13,447 Speaker 1: was an eight hour shoot, and then I did the interview, right, 636 00:32:13,527 --> 00:32:16,847 Speaker 1: which tells you a lot. Right, Let's talk to someone 637 00:32:16,927 --> 00:32:18,447 Speaker 1: for an hour at the end of the day, but 638 00:32:18,487 --> 00:32:22,327 Speaker 1: we're going to spend eight hours photographing them. And I 639 00:32:22,367 --> 00:32:25,807 Speaker 1: feel hadn't have listened to what she was saying, and 640 00:32:25,847 --> 00:32:31,207 Speaker 1: you hadn't seen that video. She looked immaculate, she looked glamorous, 641 00:32:31,287 --> 00:32:35,287 Speaker 1: she looked beautiful skin, she had glamorous hair. Like again, 642 00:32:35,527 --> 00:32:38,767 Speaker 1: what is the media's role to help make this artifice 643 00:32:38,807 --> 00:32:43,807 Speaker 1: that she's completely fine? To me, this interview is just 644 00:32:43,927 --> 00:32:47,887 Speaker 1: filled in some of the nuance that recovery in grief 645 00:32:48,007 --> 00:32:50,367 Speaker 1: is not linear. It's not you know, as we saw 646 00:32:50,407 --> 00:32:54,127 Speaker 1: with Matthew Perry, right, Like the trouble is when you're 647 00:32:54,127 --> 00:32:58,887 Speaker 1: famous and you have addiction issues, you need to have 648 00:32:59,167 --> 00:33:02,847 Speaker 1: the redemption arc of I was addicted and now I'm not. 649 00:33:02,967 --> 00:33:05,607 Speaker 1: And that's what Matthew Perry had with his memoir, and 650 00:33:05,687 --> 00:33:08,967 Speaker 1: he's how come back and it's often not. Sometimes it is, 651 00:33:09,007 --> 00:33:12,447 Speaker 1: but often not. And yet that is the only narrative 652 00:33:12,487 --> 00:33:15,967 Speaker 1: that we will accept. And so it turns out that 653 00:33:16,127 --> 00:33:19,727 Speaker 1: Matthew Perry was not sober when he was promoting that memoir. 654 00:33:19,807 --> 00:33:23,087 Speaker 1: He was already back, you know, addicted to ketamine and 655 00:33:23,207 --> 00:33:26,447 Speaker 1: taking drugs and spiraling back into addiction. But he was 656 00:33:26,487 --> 00:33:29,047 Speaker 1: out there talking about it, kind of being behind him, 657 00:33:29,167 --> 00:33:32,287 Speaker 1: because that's what we insist on. People Magazine is not 658 00:33:32,327 --> 00:33:36,647 Speaker 1: a gossipy title. They always work very much on the 659 00:33:36,727 --> 00:33:38,927 Speaker 1: side of the star, on the side of publicists. 660 00:33:38,927 --> 00:33:40,807 Speaker 2: She would have had approven so I think not on 661 00:33:40,847 --> 00:33:42,567 Speaker 2: that video she said you didn't, but she might have 662 00:33:42,567 --> 00:33:43,767 Speaker 2: had approval on the cover, no. 663 00:33:43,807 --> 00:33:47,007 Speaker 1: Question, probably in some ways. I mean, People Magazine is 664 00:33:47,047 --> 00:33:50,807 Speaker 1: also when Britney spears memoir came out, they did the 665 00:33:50,847 --> 00:33:55,047 Speaker 1: whole photo shoot with Britney, no interview, no video. So 666 00:33:55,087 --> 00:33:59,367 Speaker 1: it's like, are they enablers to help rehabilitate the image 667 00:33:59,407 --> 00:34:03,207 Speaker 1: of these stars or are they It's a fine line. 668 00:34:03,247 --> 00:34:05,167 Speaker 2: It's interesting when I used to work, I don't know 669 00:34:05,167 --> 00:34:08,047 Speaker 2: the answer and gossip mags if you wanted the interview 670 00:34:08,647 --> 00:34:10,487 Speaker 2: with the Red Ark of I used to have post 671 00:34:10,527 --> 00:34:13,287 Speaker 2: lital depression, or my marriage broke down or whatever, you 672 00:34:13,367 --> 00:34:16,007 Speaker 2: absolutely agreed to picture approval. They would have one hundred 673 00:34:16,007 --> 00:34:18,527 Speaker 2: percent agreed to picture approval. That's why the image on 674 00:34:18,527 --> 00:34:22,967 Speaker 2: the cover looks so perfect. Video and audio and releasing 675 00:34:23,007 --> 00:34:26,207 Speaker 2: the video and audio has changed that game, right, because 676 00:34:26,767 --> 00:34:30,207 Speaker 2: it's very unlikely that her people had approval of that. 677 00:34:30,527 --> 00:34:33,007 Speaker 2: If they had, then massive miss to let it go out, 678 00:34:33,527 --> 00:34:36,847 Speaker 2: because this was probably inevitable the way that we pick apart. 679 00:34:36,607 --> 00:34:38,487 Speaker 1: They would have been in the room when the interviews happened. 680 00:34:38,567 --> 00:34:41,087 Speaker 4: They would That's what I can't understand. Why you wouldn't 681 00:34:41,687 --> 00:34:42,807 Speaker 4: jump up and say. 682 00:34:43,087 --> 00:34:47,287 Speaker 1: Yeah, says once the cameras are rolling, that then becomes yeah. 683 00:34:47,327 --> 00:34:49,567 Speaker 2: But she says that her people did stop it, but 684 00:34:49,607 --> 00:34:52,007 Speaker 2: that they were assured by people that they would handle 685 00:34:52,007 --> 00:34:56,687 Speaker 2: little sensitively. As Mia says, it's not in People Magazine's 686 00:34:56,687 --> 00:35:00,167 Speaker 2: interest to gotcha celebrities because they are the mouthpiece. They're 687 00:35:00,207 --> 00:35:03,127 Speaker 2: the mouthpiece for Harry and Meghan, because they're generally friendly, 688 00:35:03,167 --> 00:35:05,767 Speaker 2: they offer approval, They work very tightly with Hollywood. 689 00:35:05,407 --> 00:35:08,047 Speaker 1: Agents, so kind of like the Women's Weekly use. 690 00:35:08,167 --> 00:35:11,847 Speaker 2: Yes, it's interesting that this was allowed to go out, 691 00:35:11,887 --> 00:35:12,847 Speaker 2: would you have published it? 692 00:35:13,567 --> 00:35:15,687 Speaker 4: You do a no filter with someone and this is 693 00:35:15,727 --> 00:35:18,487 Speaker 4: how no I mean, this is complicated. But they come 694 00:35:18,527 --> 00:35:23,327 Speaker 4: and they're slurring or they're not, they're best selves, which 695 00:35:23,367 --> 00:35:24,287 Speaker 4: props really. 696 00:35:24,087 --> 00:35:28,087 Speaker 1: Tricky because occasionally I have not published a no filter. 697 00:35:28,167 --> 00:35:30,447 Speaker 1: They've been about two times when I've done that to 698 00:35:30,527 --> 00:35:32,607 Speaker 1: protect the person because I didn't think they were in 699 00:35:32,647 --> 00:35:35,487 Speaker 1: the state to do the interview. But they were not 700 00:35:35,927 --> 00:35:41,767 Speaker 1: big Hollywood stars with publicists and teams who had conspireds 701 00:35:41,767 --> 00:35:44,327 Speaker 1: makes it sounds interstuff, but who had participated in an 702 00:35:44,367 --> 00:35:48,367 Speaker 1: eight hour shoot and was publicizing a movie and contractually 703 00:35:48,367 --> 00:35:51,847 Speaker 1: obliged to publicize a movie. It's interesting to know also, 704 00:35:51,887 --> 00:35:54,767 Speaker 1: who wants her to come back. She probably wants to 705 00:35:54,767 --> 00:35:56,607 Speaker 1: come back. She's got to earn money. She's got to 706 00:35:56,607 --> 00:35:58,407 Speaker 1: earn money. She hasn't no money in a long time. 707 00:35:59,087 --> 00:36:01,207 Speaker 1: It's just one of those heartbreaking stories that I don't 708 00:36:01,207 --> 00:36:03,207 Speaker 1: think there is a bad guy in this. I think 709 00:36:03,247 --> 00:36:05,567 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a story about addiction. It's like 710 00:36:05,607 --> 00:36:09,767 Speaker 1: Britney Spears. If you go and look at Hayden's Instagram again, 711 00:36:09,927 --> 00:36:12,247 Speaker 1: I don't know if she's publishing it. She doesn't publish video, 712 00:36:12,367 --> 00:36:16,007 Speaker 1: she only publishes stills, but the captions are eerily reminiscent 713 00:36:16,047 --> 00:36:19,047 Speaker 1: of Britney Spears. It's like that very childlike way of 714 00:36:19,167 --> 00:36:23,207 Speaker 1: talking doesn't sound like a grown woman who's in control 715 00:36:23,247 --> 00:36:24,367 Speaker 1: of what's going on in a lite. 716 00:36:24,407 --> 00:36:26,727 Speaker 2: I think the fact that there was such a pushback 717 00:36:26,767 --> 00:36:32,247 Speaker 2: on people shows increased media literacy, shows increased understanding of 718 00:36:32,367 --> 00:36:36,407 Speaker 2: mental health and addiction, and shows that the narrative from 719 00:36:36,447 --> 00:36:40,207 Speaker 2: a different generation about the fact that st Britney spears, 720 00:36:40,247 --> 00:36:41,487 Speaker 2: for example, as a victim. 721 00:36:41,847 --> 00:36:43,407 Speaker 1: So what are we saying? We just want the fake? 722 00:36:43,607 --> 00:36:47,047 Speaker 2: I think people think it's exploitative if somebody is not 723 00:36:47,687 --> 00:36:49,367 Speaker 2: in the right frame of mind to be able to 724 00:36:49,367 --> 00:36:52,047 Speaker 2: do that. To show that to everybody is exploitative. Whether 725 00:36:52,127 --> 00:36:53,567 Speaker 2: or not it is, I'm with you, I'm kind of 726 00:36:53,567 --> 00:36:54,167 Speaker 2: on the fence. 727 00:36:54,687 --> 00:36:57,127 Speaker 1: Showing reality is exploited in well. 728 00:36:57,167 --> 00:37:01,687 Speaker 2: It also shows the massive gap between as you've brilliantly expressed, 729 00:37:01,967 --> 00:37:05,847 Speaker 2: the massive gap between the image that's being presented. But 730 00:37:05,927 --> 00:37:08,207 Speaker 2: then don't we all want to put forward our best 731 00:37:08,247 --> 00:37:10,807 Speaker 2: image a lot of the time. I don't mean necessarily literally, 732 00:37:10,847 --> 00:37:12,887 Speaker 2: but do we all want everybody rummaging around? 733 00:37:12,887 --> 00:37:16,567 Speaker 1: How much does how much agency does a thirty five 734 00:37:16,647 --> 00:37:20,807 Speaker 1: year old woman with a team of managers, agents, publicists, wardrobe, 735 00:37:20,807 --> 00:37:23,807 Speaker 1: hair and makeer, you know, personal trainers, or how much 736 00:37:24,047 --> 00:37:27,647 Speaker 1: agency and responsibility does she have to take for you 737 00:37:27,647 --> 00:37:29,527 Speaker 1: know what, guys, let's do the interview at the beginning 738 00:37:29,527 --> 00:37:31,767 Speaker 1: of the day, or I'm just not going to do 739 00:37:31,847 --> 00:37:33,887 Speaker 1: this and you know I've been on shoots. It can 740 00:37:34,127 --> 00:37:36,487 Speaker 1: I'm not like that, but it can be hard. But 741 00:37:36,527 --> 00:37:40,247 Speaker 1: you do have some agency. It's not the publications job 742 00:37:40,367 --> 00:37:43,927 Speaker 1: or the media organization's job to take care of you 743 00:37:44,407 --> 00:37:47,967 Speaker 1: or to make you look away. That's not true. It's tricky. 744 00:37:48,727 --> 00:37:50,647 Speaker 2: Look, that was going to be all we had time for. 745 00:37:50,727 --> 00:37:52,967 Speaker 2: But there's an urgent question I have for me in 746 00:37:53,007 --> 00:37:56,247 Speaker 2: case you missed it. Barrel jeans are a big thing 747 00:37:56,487 --> 00:37:59,447 Speaker 2: at the moment, which are well mia explained to us 748 00:37:59,487 --> 00:38:03,647 Speaker 2: in your fashion language. What barrel jeans are disgusting. They 749 00:38:03,687 --> 00:38:07,087 Speaker 2: are hyper wide leg but not just wide leg jeans 750 00:38:07,487 --> 00:38:09,247 Speaker 2: in like a normal wide leg way. They kind of 751 00:38:09,487 --> 00:38:11,287 Speaker 2: almost balloon out. 752 00:38:11,047 --> 00:38:12,687 Speaker 3: Don't imagine we've. 753 00:38:12,527 --> 00:38:14,487 Speaker 1: Been riding a horse for one hundred years. 754 00:38:14,807 --> 00:38:17,807 Speaker 4: You know, when you stand on like an air gust 755 00:38:18,127 --> 00:38:19,887 Speaker 4: and like you've got jeans on and it makes you 756 00:38:19,927 --> 00:38:21,887 Speaker 4: go puff out at the knees and you look really silly. 757 00:38:22,007 --> 00:38:24,847 Speaker 1: Yes, So if you're standing straight with your ankles together, 758 00:38:25,047 --> 00:38:28,527 Speaker 1: imagine an oval shape from your hips to your ankles. 759 00:38:28,607 --> 00:38:31,167 Speaker 2: Yeah, like you're standing in a circle. So kind of 760 00:38:31,247 --> 00:38:33,687 Speaker 2: And the thing that I want to know because apparently 761 00:38:33,767 --> 00:38:35,447 Speaker 2: so in case you missed everybody, they're a big thing. 762 00:38:35,527 --> 00:38:38,287 Speaker 2: You'll look around and you will see them. But Mia 763 00:38:38,487 --> 00:38:41,327 Speaker 2: has not yet embraced this trend. Now we know that 764 00:38:41,407 --> 00:38:44,727 Speaker 2: Mia jumps on most trends. Last week we did post 765 00:38:44,767 --> 00:38:48,767 Speaker 2: those ridiculous see through sockey jewelry things she's wearing. Pretty 766 00:38:48,807 --> 00:38:50,407 Speaker 2: a lot of people just said to me in my 767 00:38:50,567 --> 00:38:53,087 Speaker 2: DMS and Instagram like WTF. 768 00:38:53,087 --> 00:38:55,887 Speaker 1: One person said, please Holly stop referring to mea as 769 00:38:55,887 --> 00:38:59,887 Speaker 1: the fashion person because her style is appalling. But why 770 00:38:59,927 --> 00:39:02,127 Speaker 1: have you not yet worn these jeans because I think 771 00:39:02,127 --> 00:39:02,887 Speaker 1: they're repulsive? 772 00:39:03,047 --> 00:39:04,527 Speaker 2: How long do you think you're going to think that? 773 00:39:04,607 --> 00:39:08,407 Speaker 1: For Well, I've been looking at them, never once been tempted. 774 00:39:08,447 --> 00:39:10,487 Speaker 1: Because you're right, I offer and will think, oh that's 775 00:39:10,527 --> 00:39:13,247 Speaker 1: a look that I will never wear, like socks, for example, 776 00:39:13,527 --> 00:39:16,687 Speaker 1: And now look at me go. My eye is very 777 00:39:16,727 --> 00:39:21,527 Speaker 1: suggestible and I will usually adapt to whatever trend is 778 00:39:21,567 --> 00:39:23,407 Speaker 1: out there, because you know, you see it enough times 779 00:39:23,447 --> 00:39:26,047 Speaker 1: and it looks good. But I think it looks terrible. 780 00:39:26,127 --> 00:39:28,407 Speaker 1: And I was thinking that maybe it's because we work 781 00:39:28,567 --> 00:39:31,087 Speaker 1: with a lot of sort of cool younger people here 782 00:39:31,287 --> 00:39:33,967 Speaker 1: at Mamma Mea, and none of them are wearing them. 783 00:39:34,007 --> 00:39:36,007 Speaker 1: So I think maybe if they were all wearing them, 784 00:39:36,247 --> 00:39:40,567 Speaker 1: I'll just find myself dressing by osmosis. Right, whoever's around me, 785 00:39:40,607 --> 00:39:45,847 Speaker 1: I'll start dressing like them, except for you. 786 00:39:42,887 --> 00:39:46,887 Speaker 4: And maybe for us, just a us thing, right, because 787 00:39:46,887 --> 00:39:48,207 Speaker 4: they're going out to fall. 788 00:39:48,527 --> 00:39:50,287 Speaker 1: They've been a barrel jeans have been around for more 789 00:39:50,287 --> 00:39:52,847 Speaker 1: than a year, and they seem to be getting bigger. 790 00:39:52,967 --> 00:39:56,287 Speaker 1: But some people, they look like wearing balloons on your legs. 791 00:39:56,447 --> 00:39:59,847 Speaker 1: I think they're incredibly unflattering. But having said that, I 792 00:39:59,887 --> 00:40:03,527 Speaker 1: don't think wearing flattering things because what does flattering mean anyway? 793 00:40:03,567 --> 00:40:06,887 Speaker 1: Flattering is just a subjective idea. Although to some people 794 00:40:06,927 --> 00:40:10,487 Speaker 1: flattering mean skinny doesn't to me. But I just don't 795 00:40:10,767 --> 00:40:11,727 Speaker 1: like the way they look. 796 00:40:11,847 --> 00:40:14,287 Speaker 2: I think, out louders, what we're going to put a 797 00:40:14,287 --> 00:40:17,207 Speaker 2: picture of barrel jeans on our Instagram feed, and I 798 00:40:17,247 --> 00:40:18,727 Speaker 2: want you to tell us whether or not you think 799 00:40:18,767 --> 00:40:20,527 Speaker 2: Mia should do this. I think all it would take 800 00:40:20,567 --> 00:40:24,007 Speaker 2: actually is for Dolf, our very cool social media producer. 801 00:40:24,247 --> 00:40:27,047 Speaker 2: You can come in a couple of days wearing barrel 802 00:40:27,127 --> 00:40:29,527 Speaker 2: jeans and Maya will be in them. She'll probably have 803 00:40:29,527 --> 00:40:31,527 Speaker 2: them in every different shade. 804 00:40:31,607 --> 00:40:34,287 Speaker 1: I'm really scared that they're going to start looking attractive 805 00:40:34,327 --> 00:40:36,327 Speaker 1: to me. I need to hold this line because I 806 00:40:36,327 --> 00:40:37,727 Speaker 1: don't have many lines. 807 00:40:37,447 --> 00:40:41,127 Speaker 2: That I hold out louders. That's all we've got time 808 00:40:41,167 --> 00:40:43,727 Speaker 2: for on this Monday. Thank you for being here with us. 809 00:40:43,767 --> 00:40:46,127 Speaker 2: We will be back in your ears tomorrow of course. 810 00:40:46,727 --> 00:40:48,727 Speaker 2: And a massive thank you too to our fabulous team 811 00:40:48,727 --> 00:40:50,727 Speaker 2: for helping us put this show together. We'll see it. 812 00:40:50,927 --> 00:40:51,287 Speaker 2: Bye bye. 813 00:40:52,967 --> 00:40:56,127 Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening. If 814 00:40:56,167 --> 00:40:58,767 Speaker 1: you love the show and want to support us as well, 815 00:40:58,967 --> 00:41:01,367 Speaker 1: subscribing to Mom and Maya is the very best way 816 00:41:01,367 --> 00:41:03,887 Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode description.