WEBVTT - Mary Pershall's Daughter Killed A Man [re-release] 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:20.845 is recorded on. I'm Meya Friedman and the team at 0:00:20.885 --> 0:00:23.885 Mumma and Mea are bringing you over one hundred hours 0:00:24.445 --> 0:00:27.645 of the very best of the podcasts that we've made 0:00:27.765 --> 0:00:31.205 from across our podcast network. Do you know that we 0:00:31.285 --> 0:00:34.645 have something like fifty six different podcasts here at Mamma Mia. 0:00:35.205 --> 0:00:38.925 And if you follow this one, we have selected some 0:00:39.085 --> 0:00:41.485 others that you might like to listen to as well, 0:00:41.805 --> 0:00:44.285 and we've also brought back some of our most popular 0:00:44.725 --> 0:00:48.645 and most riveting stories from No Filter. This is the 0:00:48.725 --> 0:00:52.645 last special episode of our hot pod summer summer programming 0:00:52.725 --> 0:00:55.085 that I'm going to be bringing you here at No Filter. 0:00:55.965 --> 0:00:59.525 And it's an incredible story, as so many of our 0:00:59.525 --> 0:01:02.525 stories have been, all of them actually over summer. And 0:01:02.565 --> 0:01:05.365 it's an interview with a woman called Mary Perschel who 0:01:05.485 --> 0:01:07.925 has had to grapple with one of the hardest questions 0:01:08.405 --> 0:01:10.565 that life could ever ask you, what do you do 0:01:11.005 --> 0:01:15.165 when your child kills someone? This story is unforgettable. Have 0:01:15.245 --> 0:01:15.645 a listen. 0:01:18.205 --> 0:01:20.765 I got a call from a policeman, which wasn't unusual 0:01:20.925 --> 0:01:22.645 but he said, are you close with your daughter? And 0:01:22.685 --> 0:01:25.685 I said yes, and he said she's been involved in 0:01:25.805 --> 0:01:29.085 the slot with the elderly man there and he's passed away. 0:01:29.845 --> 0:01:32.525 From the mom and mea podcast network. I'm mea Friedman 0:01:32.685 --> 0:01:36.765 and you're listening to no filter coundid conversations that count. 0:01:37.845 --> 0:01:40.685 Mary Poschell picked up the phone one ordinary day in 0:01:40.885 --> 0:01:44.565 twenty fifteen, and she had no idea that her life 0:01:44.725 --> 0:01:47.725 would never be the same after that phone call. It 0:01:47.805 --> 0:01:50.245 was a sunny afternoon in Melbourne when she answered the 0:01:50.245 --> 0:01:53.045 family landline, and on the other end was a police 0:01:53.085 --> 0:01:57.085 officer who informed Mary that her youngest daughter, Anna, who 0:01:57.125 --> 0:01:59.845 was twenty eight at the time, was in custody for 0:01:59.965 --> 0:02:03.765 killing the man that she lived with. You might remember 0:02:03.805 --> 0:02:06.565 the headlines around that time and you might have seen 0:02:07.125 --> 0:02:11.445 pregnant woman killed man for Cigarett Thretes. But for Mary, 0:02:11.605 --> 0:02:15.445 her husband John, and Anna's oldest sister Katie, that pregnant 0:02:15.445 --> 0:02:18.485 woman was their sister and their daughter who they'd spent 0:02:18.565 --> 0:02:24.005 their lives trying desperately to protect. Mary had spent decades 0:02:24.085 --> 0:02:27.005 since Anna was a little girl trying to shield her 0:02:27.045 --> 0:02:30.525 from her demons. At first, it was anarexia and then 0:02:30.605 --> 0:02:33.725 when she recovered from that, it spiraled into other mental 0:02:33.725 --> 0:02:37.605 health issues and later drug use, including marijuana and for 0:02:37.645 --> 0:02:42.085 a time ice. But in one momentary act of rage, 0:02:42.565 --> 0:02:45.525 Anna changed the course of many lives and ended one 0:02:45.525 --> 0:02:50.365 innocent one. It was a shocking and brutal crime. Anna's 0:02:50.365 --> 0:02:53.085 mother is finally ready to talk about what happened in 0:02:53.125 --> 0:02:55.685 the years leading up to her daughter committing murder, and 0:02:55.765 --> 0:02:59.605 also what has happened quite extraordinarily in the years since. 0:03:00.565 --> 0:03:03.525 Here's part one of my interview with Mary Prochelle, and 0:03:03.605 --> 0:03:07.085 next week I'll be speaking to Anna's sister, Katie, who 0:03:07.125 --> 0:03:10.165 has her own incredible story to tell about the surprising 0:03:10.205 --> 0:03:13.005 way Anna's crime changed the course of her life too. 0:03:13.885 --> 0:03:18.645 Here's Mary, tell me about your Gorgeous Girl when she 0:03:18.765 --> 0:03:20.645 was born and when she was little, because she was 0:03:20.685 --> 0:03:24.445 your second daughter. How old was Katie when I was born? 0:03:24.525 --> 0:03:27.445 She was three years and one day old. Because this 0:03:27.485 --> 0:03:29.645 is one of our plans that actually worked out. We 0:03:29.685 --> 0:03:33.005 decided three years would be a good gap, and it 0:03:33.045 --> 0:03:35.645 was an absolutely gorgeous baby. I mean, that's partly why 0:03:35.645 --> 0:03:38.685 I named the book Gorgeous Girl. She was a beautiful 0:03:38.685 --> 0:03:42.605 little kid, and as a little child, she was so enchanting. 0:03:42.685 --> 0:03:45.645 She just lived in her imagination and she loved little 0:03:45.765 --> 0:03:48.165 critters like bugs and worms, and she would spend a 0:03:48.245 --> 0:03:50.285 lot of time out in our backyard or wherever she 0:03:50.445 --> 0:03:53.325 was picking up these little creatures which most of us 0:03:53.325 --> 0:03:56.085 wouldn't even see, but she'd just find them and she'd 0:03:56.085 --> 0:03:59.365 make up these complicated stories. But when she got to 0:03:59.445 --> 0:04:03.605 kinder and she was just doing the same thing to kids, 0:04:04.165 --> 0:04:07.325 they thought that was really weird, and she began to 0:04:07.805 --> 0:04:09.605 not that it really affected her when she was four 0:04:09.685 --> 0:04:11.885 years old, But looking back, I can see that even 0:04:11.965 --> 0:04:15.005 at that time, she was already being set apart from 0:04:15.045 --> 0:04:17.085 the group, and when she got to school it became 0:04:17.165 --> 0:04:21.645 really apparent, and that's when the real pain started. She 0:04:21.765 --> 0:04:25.205 just was so isolated from she couldn't make friends. 0:04:26.165 --> 0:04:27.845 Why do you think she couldn't make friends. 0:04:28.845 --> 0:04:31.325 I think she just didn't not have a conversation, didn't 0:04:31.325 --> 0:04:32.605 know how to relate to other people. 0:04:33.565 --> 0:04:35.805 Was she close to her sister? Was she play with Katie? 0:04:36.525 --> 0:04:39.365 Yeah, but Katie was so different from her. Katie always 0:04:39.365 --> 0:04:43.245 wanted to grow up really fast, be independent, totally into reality. 0:04:44.245 --> 0:04:49.245 Katie never went through that phase where our kids can't 0:04:49.285 --> 0:04:53.285 distinguish reality from fantasy, whereas Anna just stayed in it. 0:04:53.365 --> 0:04:56.205 So it seemed like they were using us apart rather 0:04:56.245 --> 0:04:59.845 than only three years. And I think very quickly Katie 0:04:59.885 --> 0:05:03.085 took on a protective role because we all wanted to 0:05:03.125 --> 0:05:04.445 protect Anna from pain. 0:05:05.685 --> 0:05:07.805 How did she feel about the fact that she couldn't 0:05:08.045 --> 0:05:08.845 make friends? 0:05:09.405 --> 0:05:11.845 She hated it. That was the heartbreaking part. Like if 0:05:11.885 --> 0:05:16.205 she hadn't cared, that wouldn't have been as bad, but she, 0:05:17.205 --> 0:05:20.925 you know, she was just she felt horrible, especially in 0:05:20.925 --> 0:05:22.605 those I don't know if it's I doubt if it 0:05:22.645 --> 0:05:24.805 still happens these days, But in those days, girls used 0:05:24.805 --> 0:05:29.285 to bring actual paper invitations to their birthday parties, and 0:05:29.325 --> 0:05:31.205 she would never get one. You know, she'd come home 0:05:31.245 --> 0:05:33.965 and she'd be heartbroken, and she didn't understand why. She 0:05:33.965 --> 0:05:35.885 didn't understand why people didn't want to play with her 0:05:35.925 --> 0:05:37.125 at lunch or recess. 0:05:37.565 --> 0:05:40.405 Sometimes these things are really easy to see in hindsight. 0:05:40.725 --> 0:05:41.845 That's right, you look back. 0:05:42.405 --> 0:05:45.125 Were there certain things looking back now that were red 0:05:45.125 --> 0:05:46.085 flags to you? 0:05:46.805 --> 0:05:52.165 Oh? Definitely. It's so complicated by you know, the way. 0:05:52.605 --> 0:05:55.765 I was raised as a very religious person, so we 0:05:56.565 --> 0:05:59.525 in my family we believed that people went on living 0:05:59.605 --> 0:06:03.725 after they were that they had another life afterwards. That 0:06:03.845 --> 0:06:05.805 was very much part of my life growing up because 0:06:05.805 --> 0:06:08.965 my mother was super religious. So when Anna started hearing 0:06:09.005 --> 0:06:13.445 from people from the other side quote, it didn't seem 0:06:13.485 --> 0:06:15.965 like such a big deal to me. But now looking back, 0:06:16.045 --> 0:06:20.365 I think that was probably the early manifestation of auditory hallucinations. 0:06:21.565 --> 0:06:24.605 So she heard voices, I think so, yeah, looking back, 0:06:24.725 --> 0:06:26.445 or she could have. But how old was she then 0:06:26.485 --> 0:06:30.725 when she first started talking about five six seven? Very young? 0:06:30.885 --> 0:06:33.485 And she said to you that they were ghosts. Yeah, 0:06:34.245 --> 0:06:35.925 And did they scare her or comfort her? 0:06:36.565 --> 0:06:40.085 Oh? They scared her a lot, especially as she got older, 0:06:40.845 --> 0:06:43.245 and as most kids begin to grow out of that phase. 0:06:43.285 --> 0:06:45.445 I think if being scared of monsters under the bed, 0:06:45.845 --> 0:06:49.365 they just got worse for her. And you know, she 0:06:49.405 --> 0:06:52.085 would say that there's something whispering in my ear. She 0:06:52.125 --> 0:06:53.965 didn't think of it as being inside her head, so 0:06:54.405 --> 0:06:57.285 she just said, you know, there's often she would say, 0:06:58.325 --> 0:07:01.125 I hear whispering, you know that, And she was really scared. 0:07:01.645 --> 0:07:03.765 Like at the age of twelve and thirteen, she'd say, 0:07:03.885 --> 0:07:06.325 you're so lucky, mom, because you've got dad to sleep 0:07:06.365 --> 0:07:08.525 with and I don't have anyone. Because at that stage, 0:07:08.645 --> 0:07:10.805 Katie had moved out and had her own room and 0:07:10.885 --> 0:07:14.845 after that and it became really really scared of the dark, 0:07:14.925 --> 0:07:18.445 you know, staying alone in her bed. Yeah, I think 0:07:18.565 --> 0:07:20.885 we should have taken more notice of that, but we 0:07:20.885 --> 0:07:21.965 didn't know it at the time. 0:07:22.845 --> 0:07:24.925 As a mother, I think one of the hardest things 0:07:25.445 --> 0:07:28.565 is to see your child suffering. And they say, you're 0:07:28.645 --> 0:07:32.845 only ever as happy as your least happy child. So 0:07:33.525 --> 0:07:35.525 how would you comfort her when she would cry to 0:07:35.565 --> 0:07:38.885 you about not having friends, or being left out at 0:07:38.885 --> 0:07:40.125 school or being scared. 0:07:40.445 --> 0:07:43.165 Just try to make her happy at home. I bought 0:07:43.205 --> 0:07:47.125 her a lot of pets because that made her happy momentarily, 0:07:47.645 --> 0:07:50.245 and actually, looking back now, I also wonder if that 0:07:50.765 --> 0:07:55.805 set her up for addiction, because that kind of instant gratification, 0:07:56.165 --> 0:07:58.085 Like I didn't know what well. We gave her heaps 0:07:58.085 --> 0:08:01.525 of advice like try this, try that with kids, you know, 0:08:01.685 --> 0:08:03.765 smile or go up to them, you know, and ask 0:08:03.805 --> 0:08:06.645 about them. Don't always talk about yourself and what's in 0:08:06.685 --> 0:08:09.205 your head, you know. So we gave her friendship advice 0:08:09.445 --> 0:08:11.765 and we even took her to a course for anxious children. 0:08:13.485 --> 0:08:17.285 But basically, I just like you said, it's so hard 0:08:17.285 --> 0:08:19.925 to see your child in pain, and I just wanted 0:08:19.925 --> 0:08:22.085 to make her feel better, so I just she'd be 0:08:22.205 --> 0:08:24.885 so upset and I'd be sitting beside her bed, which 0:08:24.885 --> 0:08:26.565 I did every night to try and make her feel better. 0:08:26.565 --> 0:08:29.445 After Katie wasn't in there, I'd say, how about we 0:08:29.485 --> 0:08:31.325 go and get another budget at the weekend, or some 0:08:31.365 --> 0:08:34.045 more fish or some more lizards what she loved, and 0:08:34.045 --> 0:08:36.965 she'd be like okay, and that would cheer her up. 0:08:37.445 --> 0:08:40.885 But that wasn't that was such a short term solution. 0:08:41.725 --> 0:08:43.925 Now, sometimes you would make her brownies in the middle 0:08:43.925 --> 0:08:48.005 of the night to do that. I get that it's 0:08:48.125 --> 0:08:51.085 very confronting seeing your child in pain, and you'll do 0:08:51.165 --> 0:08:54.045 anything to try to take that pain away. Yeah. 0:08:54.085 --> 0:08:58.205 I used to say, you know, the heartbreak for them 0:08:58.285 --> 0:09:00.405 is worse than for yourself. And I felt like my 0:09:00.485 --> 0:09:02.485 heart broke for her so many times. It was like 0:09:02.685 --> 0:09:04.965 felt like scar to you. In the end. 0:09:05.445 --> 0:09:08.125 She developed anarex here as a teenager. Yeah, and at 0:09:08.165 --> 0:09:10.245 first you didn't really really lies, did. 0:09:10.045 --> 0:09:14.445 You, no, Because I had this idea that anorexia happened 0:09:14.445 --> 0:09:17.205 with girls we thought in those days who were overweight 0:09:17.365 --> 0:09:20.525 and wanted to change their body image. But she was skinny, 0:09:20.805 --> 0:09:25.725 so I didn't sort of connect that. When she started 0:09:25.725 --> 0:09:27.325 eating less, she said it was because she didn't want 0:09:27.325 --> 0:09:30.965 to get pimples, and she thought eliminating fat from her 0:09:31.005 --> 0:09:34.325 diet would stop her getting a bad complexion. And I 0:09:34.445 --> 0:09:37.165 thought so too at the time, because I've been told 0:09:37.205 --> 0:09:40.925 that as a teenager, if you eat fat, you get pimples. 0:09:41.245 --> 0:09:43.165 And I think so many other things were going on, 0:09:43.245 --> 0:09:45.045 you know, that was the time when she and I 0:09:45.085 --> 0:09:48.125 went back to my when my mother was dying, and 0:09:48.445 --> 0:09:50.325 I think I just didn't pay enough attention to what 0:09:50.365 --> 0:09:54.685 she was eating and until suddenly she was eating practically nothing. 0:09:55.525 --> 0:09:57.805 And what was the what was the tipping point when 0:09:57.805 --> 0:09:59.965 you realized, hang on, she's really sick. 0:10:01.765 --> 0:10:04.645 Well partly because Katie said to me, have you seen 0:10:04.765 --> 0:10:07.005 Anna naked? And I'm like, no, she doesn't let me 0:10:07.005 --> 0:10:08.965 see her naked for a long time. And Katie said, 0:10:08.965 --> 0:10:10.285 she just up and to see her come out of 0:10:10.325 --> 0:10:12.125 the shower, and she said she looks like a skeleton 0:10:12.245 --> 0:10:14.765 mum because she wore a lot of layers. So you 0:10:14.805 --> 0:10:17.925 didn't realize. And then I really looked at her and 0:10:17.965 --> 0:10:20.845 I thought, oh, yeah, she is very skinny. I was 0:10:20.885 --> 0:10:23.245 grieving for my mother at that time. Not to make excuses, 0:10:23.285 --> 0:10:25.725 but you know, there's lots of stuff going on. And 0:10:25.885 --> 0:10:29.165 it wasn't until I really looked at her because she 0:10:29.205 --> 0:10:32.005 was still doing stuff. She was still doing chlarate and 0:10:32.045 --> 0:10:33.165 winning trophies. 0:10:33.405 --> 0:10:37.565 So she was admitted to hospital and connected to a 0:10:37.605 --> 0:10:40.365 heart monitor because her weight was so low. What were 0:10:40.405 --> 0:10:41.325 they worried about? 0:10:41.845 --> 0:10:44.165 It was at night that she was connected. Her heart 0:10:44.165 --> 0:10:48.965 could stop because she was so compromised. 0:10:48.965 --> 0:10:54.965 So deeply malmourished. Yeah, So she emerged from hospital, she 0:10:55.085 --> 0:10:59.725 recovered from anorexia, and she went to UNI and there 0:10:59.805 --> 0:11:03.765 was almost a golden period in Anna's life. Let's tell 0:11:03.805 --> 0:11:04.765 me about those years. 0:11:06.365 --> 0:11:09.165 Well, she went to a senior secondary college in your 0:11:09.165 --> 0:11:11.645 life and twelve and she actually made some friends, which 0:11:11.685 --> 0:11:16.245 is like wonderful and then your heart, Yeah, yeah, I did. 0:11:16.805 --> 0:11:19.765 And then she went to UNI to study psychology at 0:11:19.765 --> 0:11:25.125 Swinburne University, and she met this wonderful man, a boy. 0:11:25.445 --> 0:11:27.085 He was a couple of years older than her. He 0:11:27.125 --> 0:11:29.765 wasn't at UNI, but she met him through a pool 0:11:29.805 --> 0:11:32.925 party and they were so in love and that was 0:11:33.005 --> 0:11:36.845 just great. So she moved in with and I'm allowed 0:11:36.845 --> 0:11:39.685 to say this because I've discussed it with the young 0:11:39.725 --> 0:11:42.045 man and his mother. She moved in with them, and 0:11:42.085 --> 0:11:45.765 his mother has this really good business, and yeah, that 0:11:45.845 --> 0:11:48.445 was a great time. But she lived apart from us 0:11:48.445 --> 0:11:50.565 for two or three years, so we didn't really realize 0:11:50.685 --> 0:11:52.365 totally what was going on with her life. 0:11:52.925 --> 0:11:55.605 There's a beautiful photo of her and Andrew in the book, 0:11:55.685 --> 0:11:58.605 and you write that it pains you almost to look 0:11:58.645 --> 0:12:01.045 at it because you can see the potential of which 0:12:01.085 --> 0:12:02.405 way her life could have gone. 0:12:02.445 --> 0:12:06.365 That's right. What were your hopes for her, Duran, Well, 0:12:06.445 --> 0:12:10.485 she I hope she'd get a career and she could 0:12:10.525 --> 0:12:15.125 have actually worked for Andrew's mother's company and been a 0:12:15.165 --> 0:12:19.485 part of that whole family enterprise, which is in medical technology, 0:12:19.485 --> 0:12:23.525 a growth industry. Apart from that, we just hoped she'd 0:12:23.525 --> 0:12:26.005 get a career in psychology. She'd always dreamt of being 0:12:26.045 --> 0:12:29.365 a forensic psychologist. And she's so intelligent and so articulate. 0:12:30.125 --> 0:12:32.365 Her vocabulary is amazing. She only has to hear a 0:12:32.405 --> 0:12:36.005 word and she remembers it. She's got the best vocabulary 0:12:36.045 --> 0:12:38.685 of anyone I know, apart from her father. So we 0:12:38.765 --> 0:12:41.405 thought she would grow up in a step by step 0:12:41.445 --> 0:12:45.765 and and she would become successful. But it didn't happen. 0:12:46.205 --> 0:12:48.445 There were a few signs around that time when she 0:12:48.565 --> 0:12:52.565 was living with Andrew and his mum that perhaps she 0:12:52.605 --> 0:12:55.285 was struggling with what it meant to be an adult. 0:12:55.325 --> 0:12:57.765 What were some of the things that sort of were 0:12:57.765 --> 0:12:59.365 in the back of your mind as concerns. 0:13:00.245 --> 0:13:02.565 Well, she couldn't learn to drive, for one thing, that 0:13:02.765 --> 0:13:06.525 was looking back. I think that's a real insight into 0:13:06.565 --> 0:13:07.165 her mind. 0:13:07.765 --> 0:13:10.405 When you say she couldn't she refused to, or she 0:13:10.525 --> 0:13:11.725 was didn't understand. 0:13:13.645 --> 0:13:16.165 She could operate the car perfectly, and it was a manual, 0:13:16.245 --> 0:13:18.325 she had no trouble with that, But say she would 0:13:18.365 --> 0:13:22.685 come to an intersection. She had such a poor sense 0:13:22.725 --> 0:13:27.165 of where she was in physical skills, Yeah, always, And 0:13:27.685 --> 0:13:31.285 when she tried to drive, she couldn't remember what lane 0:13:31.285 --> 0:13:34.325 to go in if she turned in an intersection. Well, 0:13:34.365 --> 0:13:37.165 she couldn't. She couldn't seem to remember to look at 0:13:37.165 --> 0:13:39.085 the speeder at the same time that she was driving. 0:13:39.285 --> 0:13:41.125 As long as you've got someone, as long as she 0:13:41.165 --> 0:13:43.685 had one of us sitting beside her to help her, 0:13:43.965 --> 0:13:47.845 like watch your speeder, look and watched for that car, 0:13:48.925 --> 0:13:50.685 she never got to the point where we didn't need 0:13:50.725 --> 0:13:51.125 to do that. 0:13:51.645 --> 0:13:53.565 So at home she was kind of buffeted from the 0:13:53.605 --> 0:13:59.805 world by you and to Andrew Andrew's house, and he 0:13:59.845 --> 0:14:03.605 and his mom sort of took care of her, buffeted 0:14:03.645 --> 0:14:05.925 her from the world, and she was you know, she 0:14:05.925 --> 0:14:08.085 did well at UNI, and she completed her degree, which 0:14:08.125 --> 0:14:11.205 is no small thing, and the boundaries of that. 0:14:11.125 --> 0:14:12.565 Clearly suited her exactly. 0:14:13.165 --> 0:14:15.725 And then what happened after UNI. 0:14:15.725 --> 0:14:18.165 Well, Andrew bought them a house, which was great. You know, 0:14:18.205 --> 0:14:20.405 he got a better car. It was all sort of 0:14:20.445 --> 0:14:23.765 progressing in the way that young people's lives do. And 0:14:23.765 --> 0:14:25.885 Andrew loved her so much he wanted her to see 0:14:25.925 --> 0:14:29.565 her succeed, so they got this little house. But once 0:14:29.605 --> 0:14:32.925 she was there, as he said, without the comforts and 0:14:33.005 --> 0:14:35.925 support of Andrew's mother, she just couldn't cope. And I 0:14:35.925 --> 0:14:38.725 didn't realize that she was beginning to drink during the day. 0:14:40.365 --> 0:14:42.885 And we expected her to be applying for jobs or 0:14:42.925 --> 0:14:46.045 looking for courses to progress through the process of becoming 0:14:46.045 --> 0:14:49.845 a forensic psychologist, and she just looked at cat videos. 0:14:50.685 --> 0:14:52.645 So Andrew would be calling her from work saying, you know, 0:14:52.685 --> 0:14:55.645 what are you doing. Yeah, and then she met a 0:14:55.685 --> 0:14:58.965 friend who introduced her to weed. He said, you're drinking 0:14:58.965 --> 0:15:00.965 too much. You'd be better off if you smoked upe. 0:15:01.805 --> 0:15:05.325 So she started that and then she left Andrew's place 0:15:05.365 --> 0:15:07.005 at the end of that year and came back to us, 0:15:07.045 --> 0:15:08.925 and that's when the real generation began. 0:15:09.605 --> 0:15:12.965 Was she being treated for mental health issues during this time, Like, 0:15:13.005 --> 0:15:16.365 after she'd recovered from anorexia, was she still hearing voices? 0:15:16.485 --> 0:15:18.805 Was she on any medication? Had you received any sort 0:15:18.845 --> 0:15:19.765 of diagnosis. 0:15:20.325 --> 0:15:23.165 No, we didn't have a diagnosis beyond anorexia. She wasn't 0:15:23.205 --> 0:15:26.245 outpatient at the Children's until she was eighteen, so she 0:15:26.365 --> 0:15:28.885 was being treated for both. I mean, she was being 0:15:29.125 --> 0:15:32.005 monitored supervised for both her physical health and she had 0:15:32.005 --> 0:15:35.805 a counselor every week. After that. She did take herself 0:15:35.805 --> 0:15:41.485 to a psychiatrist during university, which I didn't know that person, 0:15:41.525 --> 0:15:43.845 but she I thought that was great that she did that, 0:15:44.525 --> 0:15:48.325 and he prescribed as serahqual. She seemed to be able 0:15:48.325 --> 0:15:50.165 to fill those scripts whenever she wanted to, So she 0:15:50.805 --> 0:15:52.445 had a lot of serahkal, Which is. 0:15:52.925 --> 0:15:55.325 What were the symptoms that she was treating, Like, was 0:15:55.325 --> 0:15:56.765 it depression, was it anxiety? 0:15:56.885 --> 0:16:00.325 Was it depression? Anxiety? She didn't talk about voices during 0:16:00.365 --> 0:16:05.005 that time, but once she started smoking up and then 0:16:05.045 --> 0:16:07.045 she went on to synthetic weed. 0:16:07.885 --> 0:16:10.365 Tell me about synthetic weed, because you talk about that 0:16:10.485 --> 0:16:14.125 and then quite you know, in a dark human way, 0:16:14.365 --> 0:16:18.725 how you became involved in buying that for her. Tell 0:16:18.765 --> 0:16:21.125 me about synthetic weed, because I've never heard of it before. 0:16:21.205 --> 0:16:23.205 It's called synthetic weed in the States. They have a 0:16:23.205 --> 0:16:26.085 lot of different names for it, like skunk and K two. 0:16:26.685 --> 0:16:30.645 But it's not actually marijuana. It's a cannabinoid, yeah, sprayed 0:16:30.725 --> 0:16:35.685 onto dried herbs. So just like chemicals. Yeah, it's chemicals 0:16:35.685 --> 0:16:36.845 on dried herbs and. 0:16:36.965 --> 0:16:38.485 To mimic the effect of marijuana. 0:16:38.605 --> 0:16:43.805 Yeah, but it's worse. It's quite damaging. They can be 0:16:43.885 --> 0:16:46.685 damaging chemicals. From what I understand, most of them come 0:16:46.685 --> 0:16:51.245 from China, and if the government outlaws one of the chemicals, 0:16:51.285 --> 0:16:54.405 they just changed the composition slightly so that it's it's 0:16:54.405 --> 0:16:59.685 a little bit different. But it's not the same as marijuana, 0:16:59.725 --> 0:17:01.525 even though they call it that. They call it synthetic 0:17:01.525 --> 0:17:06.405 marijuana or synthetic cannabis. People literally, I believe, literally don't 0:17:06.405 --> 0:17:08.725 know what's in it, and it can be. Deaths have 0:17:08.805 --> 0:17:11.805 occurred from it because it can be they spray it 0:17:11.925 --> 0:17:14.805 and like bits of can be more powerful than others, 0:17:15.285 --> 0:17:18.325 and she smoked a lot of that, and she just 0:17:18.365 --> 0:17:20.685 got worse and worse. I can see now during that 0:17:20.765 --> 0:17:24.925 time she became really paranoid. The voices really started to 0:17:25.245 --> 0:17:26.405 scream in her head then. 0:17:26.605 --> 0:17:30.845 Which is something that can happen from particularly around marijuana 0:17:30.925 --> 0:17:34.565 or cannabis or let alone synthetic weed. And you say 0:17:34.605 --> 0:17:36.685 that you're writing the book, that you think that's really 0:17:36.685 --> 0:17:39.405 when her brain sort of broke open, and I think 0:17:39.565 --> 0:17:40.565 the real damage. 0:17:40.805 --> 0:17:43.485 Yeah, I think she hadn't always had a propensity for 0:17:43.565 --> 0:17:46.365 mental illness, but I think it was definitely exacerbated by 0:17:46.405 --> 0:17:50.285 the use of drugs, especially synthetic weed, and then later 0:17:50.405 --> 0:17:53.365 when she dabbled with ice. But she was never a 0:17:53.445 --> 0:17:57.725 nice addict, she did use it and it was very damaging. 0:17:58.765 --> 0:18:01.685 What was her behavior like during during these years, I 0:18:01.725 --> 0:18:04.285 mean you must have been terribly worried. You write about 0:18:04.285 --> 0:18:09.325 how she started to ride the trains and meet people. 0:18:10.125 --> 0:18:11.845 How was that playing out? Oh? 0:18:11.885 --> 0:18:14.445 It was terrible. I mean that's when a lot of 0:18:14.805 --> 0:18:16.405 I had to use a lot of my own mental 0:18:16.445 --> 0:18:21.405 health techniques to learn tools. I did go to a 0:18:21.405 --> 0:18:24.565 psychologist from my own mental health and she helped me 0:18:24.645 --> 0:18:26.645 with some tools, Like I said, how can I stop 0:18:26.725 --> 0:18:30.005 and worrying about Anna constantly? You know, it's just taking 0:18:30.085 --> 0:18:32.685 up every minute of yeah, oh, my brain. And she 0:18:32.725 --> 0:18:36.285 said she gave me a good technique. She used to 0:18:36.685 --> 0:18:38.725 just try and limit the worry to one hour a day. 0:18:40.045 --> 0:18:42.005 She'd say, you know, when your brain just goes there, 0:18:42.125 --> 0:18:44.725 just say, look, just choose an hour, which I chose 0:18:44.765 --> 0:18:47.205 three to four in the afternoon because that's my least 0:18:47.245 --> 0:18:48.645 favorite time of the day. 0:18:50.245 --> 0:18:52.485 And what would you do during that hour? You just 0:18:52.525 --> 0:18:55.845 sit down and go okay. Well. 0:18:55.845 --> 0:18:58.485 It just was a good technique because sometimes I forgot 0:18:58.525 --> 0:19:01.685 to worry. And also I had work that I loved. 0:19:01.725 --> 0:19:05.365 I tootored children from grade three up to VCU level. 0:19:06.005 --> 0:19:08.405 So that was a big mental health technique for me 0:19:08.525 --> 0:19:11.245 because I did everything I could possibly think of to 0:19:11.285 --> 0:19:14.405 help Anna. And beyond that, I thought, well, if I 0:19:14.445 --> 0:19:17.365 can't help her, at least I can help the next 0:19:17.365 --> 0:19:26.245 generation in some way. 0:19:27.045 --> 0:19:31.245 During those years, it's like you went slowly from worrying 0:19:31.325 --> 0:19:35.525 about well, what she going to do next, and how 0:19:35.565 --> 0:19:37.605 she going to get a license and how she going 0:19:37.645 --> 0:19:41.725 to get a job, to worrying about her physical safety 0:19:41.925 --> 0:19:44.885 and that she would die how did you get to 0:19:44.925 --> 0:19:45.685 that point? 0:19:46.565 --> 0:19:49.245 Because she well, for one thing, she said she wanted 0:19:49.245 --> 0:19:52.645 to die, A part of her wanted to die. She's 0:19:52.685 --> 0:19:57.485 in early twenties then, so that was really I mean, 0:19:57.485 --> 0:19:59.765 that's a horrible thing for a mother to hear. And 0:20:01.125 --> 0:20:05.565 also she was just so reckless with her life. She 0:20:05.565 --> 0:20:08.885 she looked young, people thought she was a teenager. So 0:20:08.925 --> 0:20:11.405 she get dressed up in these little girly clothes from 0:20:11.445 --> 0:20:15.045 Kmart they barely covered her bottom and got on the 0:20:15.045 --> 0:20:19.125 train in order to meet men because she wanted That 0:20:19.285 --> 0:20:22.925 was her method of getting drugs, basically, and attention. She 0:20:23.045 --> 0:20:26.245 loved attention. So she moves up to some guy on 0:20:26.285 --> 0:20:29.165 the train and he would tell her how beautiful she was, 0:20:29.205 --> 0:20:30.725 and why don't you come home with me and we'll 0:20:30.725 --> 0:20:33.325 have some drugs. And so that's what she would do. 0:20:33.365 --> 0:20:35.085 And we didn't know where she was, and she wouldn't 0:20:35.085 --> 0:20:37.845 answer her phones. We just thought it was a matter 0:20:37.885 --> 0:20:41.805 of time before something happened to her. And also being 0:20:41.845 --> 0:20:44.325 suicidal or having what that I guess they call it 0:20:44.405 --> 0:20:48.765 suicidal ideation. My husband John, who's a very devoted father, 0:20:51.045 --> 0:20:54.485 he'd and very real a man of total realism. He 0:20:54.525 --> 0:20:56.965 thought she was going to jump in front of a train. 0:20:57.005 --> 0:20:59.125 That's what he thought. So you know, we're just worried 0:20:59.165 --> 0:21:03.085 about her lifestyle. And also she would become unconscious a lot, 0:21:03.125 --> 0:21:07.165 which I suppose is really technically oding. You couldn't wake 0:21:07.245 --> 0:21:07.565 her up. 0:21:08.005 --> 0:21:10.285 I love how you just drop that into conversation. You know, 0:21:10.365 --> 0:21:12.965