1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:15,005 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges 2 00:00:15,045 --> 00:00:17,685 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:17,765 --> 00:00:20,845 Speaker 1: is recorded on. I'm Meya Friedman and the team at 4 00:00:20,885 --> 00:00:23,885 Speaker 1: Mumma and Mea are bringing you over one hundred hours 5 00:00:24,445 --> 00:00:27,645 Speaker 1: of the very best of the podcasts that we've made 6 00:00:27,765 --> 00:00:31,205 Speaker 1: from across our podcast network. Do you know that we 7 00:00:31,285 --> 00:00:34,645 Speaker 1: have something like fifty six different podcasts here at Mamma Mia. 8 00:00:35,205 --> 00:00:38,925 Speaker 1: And if you follow this one, we have selected some 9 00:00:39,085 --> 00:00:41,485 Speaker 1: others that you might like to listen to as well, 10 00:00:41,805 --> 00:00:44,285 Speaker 1: and we've also brought back some of our most popular 11 00:00:44,725 --> 00:00:48,645 Speaker 1: and most riveting stories from No Filter. This is the 12 00:00:48,725 --> 00:00:52,645 Speaker 1: last special episode of our hot pod summer summer programming 13 00:00:52,725 --> 00:00:55,085 Speaker 1: that I'm going to be bringing you here at No Filter. 14 00:00:55,965 --> 00:00:59,525 Speaker 1: And it's an incredible story, as so many of our 15 00:00:59,525 --> 00:01:02,525 Speaker 1: stories have been, all of them actually over summer. And 16 00:01:02,565 --> 00:01:05,365 Speaker 1: it's an interview with a woman called Mary Perschel who 17 00:01:05,485 --> 00:01:07,925 Speaker 1: has had to grapple with one of the hardest questions 18 00:01:08,405 --> 00:01:10,565 Speaker 1: that life could ever ask you, what do you do 19 00:01:11,005 --> 00:01:15,165 Speaker 1: when your child kills someone? This story is unforgettable. Have 20 00:01:15,245 --> 00:01:15,645 Speaker 1: a listen. 21 00:01:18,205 --> 00:01:20,765 Speaker 2: I got a call from a policeman, which wasn't unusual 22 00:01:20,925 --> 00:01:22,645 Speaker 2: but he said, are you close with your daughter? And 23 00:01:22,685 --> 00:01:25,685 Speaker 2: I said yes, and he said she's been involved in 24 00:01:25,805 --> 00:01:29,085 Speaker 2: the slot with the elderly man there and he's passed away. 25 00:01:29,845 --> 00:01:32,525 Speaker 1: From the mom and mea podcast network. I'm mea Friedman 26 00:01:32,685 --> 00:01:36,765 Speaker 1: and you're listening to no filter coundid conversations that count. 27 00:01:37,845 --> 00:01:40,685 Speaker 1: Mary Poschell picked up the phone one ordinary day in 28 00:01:40,885 --> 00:01:44,565 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, and she had no idea that her life 29 00:01:44,725 --> 00:01:47,725 Speaker 1: would never be the same after that phone call. It 30 00:01:47,805 --> 00:01:50,245 Speaker 1: was a sunny afternoon in Melbourne when she answered the 31 00:01:50,245 --> 00:01:53,045 Speaker 1: family landline, and on the other end was a police 32 00:01:53,085 --> 00:01:57,085 Speaker 1: officer who informed Mary that her youngest daughter, Anna, who 33 00:01:57,125 --> 00:01:59,845 Speaker 1: was twenty eight at the time, was in custody for 34 00:01:59,965 --> 00:02:03,765 Speaker 1: killing the man that she lived with. You might remember 35 00:02:03,805 --> 00:02:06,565 Speaker 1: the headlines around that time and you might have seen 36 00:02:07,125 --> 00:02:11,445 Speaker 1: pregnant woman killed man for Cigarett Thretes. But for Mary, 37 00:02:11,605 --> 00:02:15,445 Speaker 1: her husband John, and Anna's oldest sister Katie, that pregnant 38 00:02:15,445 --> 00:02:18,485 Speaker 1: woman was their sister and their daughter who they'd spent 39 00:02:18,565 --> 00:02:24,005 Speaker 1: their lives trying desperately to protect. Mary had spent decades 40 00:02:24,085 --> 00:02:27,005 Speaker 1: since Anna was a little girl trying to shield her 41 00:02:27,045 --> 00:02:30,525 Speaker 1: from her demons. At first, it was anarexia and then 42 00:02:30,605 --> 00:02:33,725 Speaker 1: when she recovered from that, it spiraled into other mental 43 00:02:33,725 --> 00:02:37,605 Speaker 1: health issues and later drug use, including marijuana and for 44 00:02:37,645 --> 00:02:42,085 Speaker 1: a time ice. But in one momentary act of rage, 45 00:02:42,565 --> 00:02:45,525 Speaker 1: Anna changed the course of many lives and ended one 46 00:02:45,525 --> 00:02:50,365 Speaker 1: innocent one. It was a shocking and brutal crime. Anna's 47 00:02:50,365 --> 00:02:53,085 Speaker 1: mother is finally ready to talk about what happened in 48 00:02:53,125 --> 00:02:55,685 Speaker 1: the years leading up to her daughter committing murder, and 49 00:02:55,765 --> 00:02:59,605 Speaker 1: also what has happened quite extraordinarily in the years since. 50 00:03:00,565 --> 00:03:03,525 Speaker 1: Here's part one of my interview with Mary Prochelle, and 51 00:03:03,605 --> 00:03:07,085 Speaker 1: next week I'll be speaking to Anna's sister, Katie, who 52 00:03:07,125 --> 00:03:10,165 Speaker 1: has her own incredible story to tell about the surprising 53 00:03:10,205 --> 00:03:13,005 Speaker 1: way Anna's crime changed the course of her life too. 54 00:03:13,885 --> 00:03:18,645 Speaker 1: Here's Mary, tell me about your Gorgeous Girl when she 55 00:03:18,765 --> 00:03:20,645 Speaker 1: was born and when she was little, because she was 56 00:03:20,685 --> 00:03:24,445 Speaker 1: your second daughter. How old was Katie when I was born? 57 00:03:24,525 --> 00:03:27,445 Speaker 2: She was three years and one day old. Because this 58 00:03:27,485 --> 00:03:29,645 Speaker 2: is one of our plans that actually worked out. We 59 00:03:29,685 --> 00:03:33,005 Speaker 2: decided three years would be a good gap, and it 60 00:03:33,045 --> 00:03:35,645 Speaker 2: was an absolutely gorgeous baby. I mean, that's partly why 61 00:03:35,645 --> 00:03:38,685 Speaker 2: I named the book Gorgeous Girl. She was a beautiful 62 00:03:38,685 --> 00:03:42,605 Speaker 2: little kid, and as a little child, she was so enchanting. 63 00:03:42,685 --> 00:03:45,645 Speaker 2: She just lived in her imagination and she loved little 64 00:03:45,765 --> 00:03:48,165 Speaker 2: critters like bugs and worms, and she would spend a 65 00:03:48,245 --> 00:03:50,285 Speaker 2: lot of time out in our backyard or wherever she 66 00:03:50,445 --> 00:03:53,325 Speaker 2: was picking up these little creatures which most of us 67 00:03:53,325 --> 00:03:56,085 Speaker 2: wouldn't even see, but she'd just find them and she'd 68 00:03:56,085 --> 00:03:59,365 Speaker 2: make up these complicated stories. But when she got to 69 00:03:59,445 --> 00:04:03,605 Speaker 2: kinder and she was just doing the same thing to kids, 70 00:04:04,165 --> 00:04:07,325 Speaker 2: they thought that was really weird, and she began to 71 00:04:07,805 --> 00:04:09,605 Speaker 2: not that it really affected her when she was four 72 00:04:09,685 --> 00:04:11,885 Speaker 2: years old, But looking back, I can see that even 73 00:04:11,965 --> 00:04:15,005 Speaker 2: at that time, she was already being set apart from 74 00:04:15,045 --> 00:04:17,085 Speaker 2: the group, and when she got to school it became 75 00:04:17,165 --> 00:04:21,645 Speaker 2: really apparent, and that's when the real pain started. She 76 00:04:21,765 --> 00:04:25,205 Speaker 2: just was so isolated from she couldn't make friends. 77 00:04:26,165 --> 00:04:27,845 Speaker 1: Why do you think she couldn't make friends. 78 00:04:28,845 --> 00:04:31,325 Speaker 2: I think she just didn't not have a conversation, didn't 79 00:04:31,325 --> 00:04:32,605 Speaker 2: know how to relate to other people. 80 00:04:33,565 --> 00:04:35,805 Speaker 1: Was she close to her sister? Was she play with Katie? 81 00:04:36,525 --> 00:04:39,365 Speaker 2: Yeah, but Katie was so different from her. Katie always 82 00:04:39,365 --> 00:04:43,245 Speaker 2: wanted to grow up really fast, be independent, totally into reality. 83 00:04:44,245 --> 00:04:49,245 Speaker 2: Katie never went through that phase where our kids can't 84 00:04:49,285 --> 00:04:53,285 Speaker 2: distinguish reality from fantasy, whereas Anna just stayed in it. 85 00:04:53,365 --> 00:04:56,205 Speaker 2: So it seemed like they were using us apart rather 86 00:04:56,245 --> 00:04:59,845 Speaker 2: than only three years. And I think very quickly Katie 87 00:04:59,885 --> 00:05:03,085 Speaker 2: took on a protective role because we all wanted to 88 00:05:03,125 --> 00:05:04,445 Speaker 2: protect Anna from pain. 89 00:05:05,685 --> 00:05:07,805 Speaker 1: How did she feel about the fact that she couldn't 90 00:05:08,045 --> 00:05:08,845 Speaker 1: make friends? 91 00:05:09,405 --> 00:05:11,845 Speaker 2: She hated it. That was the heartbreaking part. Like if 92 00:05:11,885 --> 00:05:16,205 Speaker 2: she hadn't cared, that wouldn't have been as bad, but she, 93 00:05:17,205 --> 00:05:20,925 Speaker 2: you know, she was just she felt horrible, especially in 94 00:05:20,925 --> 00:05:22,605 Speaker 2: those I don't know if it's I doubt if it 95 00:05:22,645 --> 00:05:24,805 Speaker 2: still happens these days, But in those days, girls used 96 00:05:24,805 --> 00:05:29,285 Speaker 2: to bring actual paper invitations to their birthday parties, and 97 00:05:29,325 --> 00:05:31,205 Speaker 2: she would never get one. You know, she'd come home 98 00:05:31,245 --> 00:05:33,965 Speaker 2: and she'd be heartbroken, and she didn't understand why. She 99 00:05:33,965 --> 00:05:35,885 Speaker 2: didn't understand why people didn't want to play with her 100 00:05:35,925 --> 00:05:37,125 Speaker 2: at lunch or recess. 101 00:05:37,565 --> 00:05:40,405 Speaker 1: Sometimes these things are really easy to see in hindsight. 102 00:05:40,725 --> 00:05:41,845 Speaker 2: That's right, you look back. 103 00:05:42,405 --> 00:05:45,125 Speaker 1: Were there certain things looking back now that were red 104 00:05:45,125 --> 00:05:46,085 Speaker 1: flags to you? 105 00:05:46,805 --> 00:05:52,165 Speaker 2: Oh? Definitely. It's so complicated by you know, the way. 106 00:05:52,605 --> 00:05:55,765 Speaker 2: I was raised as a very religious person, so we 107 00:05:56,565 --> 00:05:59,525 Speaker 2: in my family we believed that people went on living 108 00:05:59,605 --> 00:06:03,725 Speaker 2: after they were that they had another life afterwards. That 109 00:06:03,845 --> 00:06:05,805 Speaker 2: was very much part of my life growing up because 110 00:06:05,805 --> 00:06:08,965 Speaker 2: my mother was super religious. So when Anna started hearing 111 00:06:09,005 --> 00:06:13,445 Speaker 2: from people from the other side quote, it didn't seem 112 00:06:13,485 --> 00:06:15,965 Speaker 2: like such a big deal to me. But now looking back, 113 00:06:16,045 --> 00:06:20,365 Speaker 2: I think that was probably the early manifestation of auditory hallucinations. 114 00:06:21,565 --> 00:06:24,605 Speaker 2: So she heard voices, I think so, yeah, looking back, 115 00:06:24,725 --> 00:06:26,445 Speaker 2: or she could have. But how old was she then 116 00:06:26,485 --> 00:06:30,725 Speaker 2: when she first started talking about five six seven? Very young? 117 00:06:30,885 --> 00:06:33,485 Speaker 1: And she said to you that they were ghosts. Yeah, 118 00:06:34,245 --> 00:06:35,925 Speaker 1: And did they scare her or comfort her? 119 00:06:36,565 --> 00:06:40,085 Speaker 2: Oh? They scared her a lot, especially as she got older, 120 00:06:40,845 --> 00:06:43,245 Speaker 2: and as most kids begin to grow out of that phase. 121 00:06:43,285 --> 00:06:45,445 Speaker 2: I think if being scared of monsters under the bed, 122 00:06:45,845 --> 00:06:49,365 Speaker 2: they just got worse for her. And you know, she 123 00:06:49,405 --> 00:06:52,085 Speaker 2: would say that there's something whispering in my ear. She 124 00:06:52,125 --> 00:06:53,965 Speaker 2: didn't think of it as being inside her head, so 125 00:06:54,405 --> 00:06:57,285 Speaker 2: she just said, you know, there's often she would say, 126 00:06:58,325 --> 00:07:01,125 Speaker 2: I hear whispering, you know that, And she was really scared. 127 00:07:01,645 --> 00:07:03,765 Speaker 2: Like at the age of twelve and thirteen, she'd say, 128 00:07:03,885 --> 00:07:06,325 Speaker 2: you're so lucky, mom, because you've got dad to sleep 129 00:07:06,365 --> 00:07:08,525 Speaker 2: with and I don't have anyone. Because at that stage, 130 00:07:08,645 --> 00:07:10,805 Speaker 2: Katie had moved out and had her own room and 131 00:07:10,885 --> 00:07:14,845 Speaker 2: after that and it became really really scared of the dark, 132 00:07:14,925 --> 00:07:18,445 Speaker 2: you know, staying alone in her bed. Yeah, I think 133 00:07:18,565 --> 00:07:20,885 Speaker 2: we should have taken more notice of that, but we 134 00:07:20,885 --> 00:07:21,965 Speaker 2: didn't know it at the time. 135 00:07:22,845 --> 00:07:24,925 Speaker 1: As a mother, I think one of the hardest things 136 00:07:25,445 --> 00:07:28,565 Speaker 1: is to see your child suffering. And they say, you're 137 00:07:28,645 --> 00:07:32,845 Speaker 1: only ever as happy as your least happy child. So 138 00:07:33,525 --> 00:07:35,525 Speaker 1: how would you comfort her when she would cry to 139 00:07:35,565 --> 00:07:38,885 Speaker 1: you about not having friends, or being left out at 140 00:07:38,885 --> 00:07:40,125 Speaker 1: school or being scared. 141 00:07:40,445 --> 00:07:43,165 Speaker 2: Just try to make her happy at home. I bought 142 00:07:43,205 --> 00:07:47,125 Speaker 2: her a lot of pets because that made her happy momentarily, 143 00:07:47,645 --> 00:07:50,245 Speaker 2: and actually, looking back now, I also wonder if that 144 00:07:50,765 --> 00:07:55,805 Speaker 2: set her up for addiction, because that kind of instant gratification, 145 00:07:56,165 --> 00:07:58,085 Speaker 2: Like I didn't know what well. We gave her heaps 146 00:07:58,085 --> 00:08:01,525 Speaker 2: of advice like try this, try that with kids, you know, 147 00:08:01,685 --> 00:08:03,765 Speaker 2: smile or go up to them, you know, and ask 148 00:08:03,805 --> 00:08:06,645 Speaker 2: about them. Don't always talk about yourself and what's in 149 00:08:06,685 --> 00:08:09,205 Speaker 2: your head, you know. So we gave her friendship advice 150 00:08:09,445 --> 00:08:11,765 Speaker 2: and we even took her to a course for anxious children. 151 00:08:13,485 --> 00:08:17,285 Speaker 2: But basically, I just like you said, it's so hard 152 00:08:17,285 --> 00:08:19,925 Speaker 2: to see your child in pain, and I just wanted 153 00:08:19,925 --> 00:08:22,085 Speaker 2: to make her feel better, so I just she'd be 154 00:08:22,205 --> 00:08:24,885 Speaker 2: so upset and I'd be sitting beside her bed, which 155 00:08:24,885 --> 00:08:26,565 Speaker 2: I did every night to try and make her feel better. 156 00:08:26,565 --> 00:08:29,445 Speaker 2: After Katie wasn't in there, I'd say, how about we 157 00:08:29,485 --> 00:08:31,325 Speaker 2: go and get another budget at the weekend, or some 158 00:08:31,365 --> 00:08:34,045 Speaker 2: more fish or some more lizards what she loved, and 159 00:08:34,045 --> 00:08:36,965 Speaker 2: she'd be like okay, and that would cheer her up. 160 00:08:37,445 --> 00:08:40,885 Speaker 2: But that wasn't that was such a short term solution. 161 00:08:41,725 --> 00:08:43,925 Speaker 1: Now, sometimes you would make her brownies in the middle 162 00:08:43,925 --> 00:08:48,005 Speaker 1: of the night to do that. I get that it's 163 00:08:48,125 --> 00:08:51,085 Speaker 1: very confronting seeing your child in pain, and you'll do 164 00:08:51,165 --> 00:08:54,045 Speaker 1: anything to try to take that pain away. Yeah. 165 00:08:54,085 --> 00:08:58,205 Speaker 2: I used to say, you know, the heartbreak for them 166 00:08:58,285 --> 00:09:00,405 Speaker 2: is worse than for yourself. And I felt like my 167 00:09:00,485 --> 00:09:02,485 Speaker 2: heart broke for her so many times. It was like 168 00:09:02,685 --> 00:09:04,965 Speaker 2: felt like scar to you. In the end. 169 00:09:05,445 --> 00:09:08,125 Speaker 1: She developed anarex here as a teenager. Yeah, and at 170 00:09:08,165 --> 00:09:10,245 Speaker 1: first you didn't really really lies, did. 171 00:09:10,045 --> 00:09:14,445 Speaker 2: You, no, Because I had this idea that anorexia happened 172 00:09:14,445 --> 00:09:17,205 Speaker 2: with girls we thought in those days who were overweight 173 00:09:17,365 --> 00:09:20,525 Speaker 2: and wanted to change their body image. But she was skinny, 174 00:09:20,805 --> 00:09:25,725 Speaker 2: so I didn't sort of connect that. When she started 175 00:09:25,725 --> 00:09:27,325 Speaker 2: eating less, she said it was because she didn't want 176 00:09:27,325 --> 00:09:30,965 Speaker 2: to get pimples, and she thought eliminating fat from her 177 00:09:31,005 --> 00:09:34,325 Speaker 2: diet would stop her getting a bad complexion. And I 178 00:09:34,445 --> 00:09:37,165 Speaker 2: thought so too at the time, because I've been told 179 00:09:37,205 --> 00:09:40,925 Speaker 2: that as a teenager, if you eat fat, you get pimples. 180 00:09:41,245 --> 00:09:43,165 Speaker 2: And I think so many other things were going on, 181 00:09:43,245 --> 00:09:45,045 Speaker 2: you know, that was the time when she and I 182 00:09:45,085 --> 00:09:48,125 Speaker 2: went back to my when my mother was dying, and 183 00:09:48,445 --> 00:09:50,325 Speaker 2: I think I just didn't pay enough attention to what 184 00:09:50,365 --> 00:09:54,685 Speaker 2: she was eating and until suddenly she was eating practically nothing. 185 00:09:55,525 --> 00:09:57,805 Speaker 1: And what was the what was the tipping point when 186 00:09:57,805 --> 00:09:59,965 Speaker 1: you realized, hang on, she's really sick. 187 00:10:01,765 --> 00:10:04,645 Speaker 2: Well partly because Katie said to me, have you seen 188 00:10:04,765 --> 00:10:07,005 Speaker 2: Anna naked? And I'm like, no, she doesn't let me 189 00:10:07,005 --> 00:10:08,965 Speaker 2: see her naked for a long time. And Katie said, 190 00:10:08,965 --> 00:10:10,285 Speaker 2: she just up and to see her come out of 191 00:10:10,325 --> 00:10:12,125 Speaker 2: the shower, and she said she looks like a skeleton 192 00:10:12,245 --> 00:10:14,765 Speaker 2: mum because she wore a lot of layers. So you 193 00:10:14,805 --> 00:10:17,925 Speaker 2: didn't realize. And then I really looked at her and 194 00:10:17,965 --> 00:10:20,845 Speaker 2: I thought, oh, yeah, she is very skinny. I was 195 00:10:20,885 --> 00:10:23,245 Speaker 2: grieving for my mother at that time. Not to make excuses, 196 00:10:23,285 --> 00:10:25,725 Speaker 2: but you know, there's lots of stuff going on. And 197 00:10:25,885 --> 00:10:29,165 Speaker 2: it wasn't until I really looked at her because she 198 00:10:29,205 --> 00:10:32,005 Speaker 2: was still doing stuff. She was still doing chlarate and 199 00:10:32,045 --> 00:10:33,165 Speaker 2: winning trophies. 200 00:10:33,405 --> 00:10:37,565 Speaker 1: So she was admitted to hospital and connected to a 201 00:10:37,605 --> 00:10:40,365 Speaker 1: heart monitor because her weight was so low. What were 202 00:10:40,405 --> 00:10:41,325 Speaker 1: they worried about? 203 00:10:41,845 --> 00:10:44,165 Speaker 2: It was at night that she was connected. Her heart 204 00:10:44,165 --> 00:10:48,965 Speaker 2: could stop because she was so compromised. 205 00:10:48,965 --> 00:10:54,965 Speaker 1: So deeply malmourished. Yeah, So she emerged from hospital, she 206 00:10:55,085 --> 00:10:59,725 Speaker 1: recovered from anorexia, and she went to UNI and there 207 00:10:59,805 --> 00:11:03,765 Speaker 1: was almost a golden period in Anna's life. Let's tell 208 00:11:03,805 --> 00:11:04,765 Speaker 1: me about those years. 209 00:11:06,365 --> 00:11:09,165 Speaker 2: Well, she went to a senior secondary college in your 210 00:11:09,165 --> 00:11:11,645 Speaker 2: life and twelve and she actually made some friends, which 211 00:11:11,685 --> 00:11:16,245 Speaker 2: is like wonderful and then your heart, Yeah, yeah, I did. 212 00:11:16,805 --> 00:11:19,765 Speaker 2: And then she went to UNI to study psychology at 213 00:11:19,765 --> 00:11:25,125 Speaker 2: Swinburne University, and she met this wonderful man, a boy. 214 00:11:25,445 --> 00:11:27,085 Speaker 2: He was a couple of years older than her. He 215 00:11:27,125 --> 00:11:29,765 Speaker 2: wasn't at UNI, but she met him through a pool 216 00:11:29,805 --> 00:11:32,925 Speaker 2: party and they were so in love and that was 217 00:11:33,005 --> 00:11:36,845 Speaker 2: just great. So she moved in with and I'm allowed 218 00:11:36,845 --> 00:11:39,685 Speaker 2: to say this because I've discussed it with the young 219 00:11:39,725 --> 00:11:42,045 Speaker 2: man and his mother. She moved in with them, and 220 00:11:42,085 --> 00:11:45,765 Speaker 2: his mother has this really good business, and yeah, that 221 00:11:45,845 --> 00:11:48,445 Speaker 2: was a great time. But she lived apart from us 222 00:11:48,445 --> 00:11:50,565 Speaker 2: for two or three years, so we didn't really realize 223 00:11:50,685 --> 00:11:52,365 Speaker 2: totally what was going on with her life. 224 00:11:52,925 --> 00:11:55,605 Speaker 1: There's a beautiful photo of her and Andrew in the book, 225 00:11:55,685 --> 00:11:58,605 Speaker 1: and you write that it pains you almost to look 226 00:11:58,645 --> 00:12:01,045 Speaker 1: at it because you can see the potential of which 227 00:12:01,085 --> 00:12:02,405 Speaker 1: way her life could have gone. 228 00:12:02,445 --> 00:12:06,365 Speaker 2: That's right. What were your hopes for her, Duran, Well, 229 00:12:06,445 --> 00:12:10,485 Speaker 2: she I hope she'd get a career and she could 230 00:12:10,525 --> 00:12:15,125 Speaker 2: have actually worked for Andrew's mother's company and been a 231 00:12:15,165 --> 00:12:19,485 Speaker 2: part of that whole family enterprise, which is in medical technology, 232 00:12:19,485 --> 00:12:23,525 Speaker 2: a growth industry. Apart from that, we just hoped she'd 233 00:12:23,525 --> 00:12:26,005 Speaker 2: get a career in psychology. She'd always dreamt of being 234 00:12:26,045 --> 00:12:29,365 Speaker 2: a forensic psychologist. And she's so intelligent and so articulate. 235 00:12:30,125 --> 00:12:32,365 Speaker 2: Her vocabulary is amazing. She only has to hear a 236 00:12:32,405 --> 00:12:36,005 Speaker 2: word and she remembers it. She's got the best vocabulary 237 00:12:36,045 --> 00:12:38,685 Speaker 2: of anyone I know, apart from her father. So we 238 00:12:38,765 --> 00:12:41,405 Speaker 2: thought she would grow up in a step by step 239 00:12:41,445 --> 00:12:45,765 Speaker 2: and and she would become successful. But it didn't happen. 240 00:12:46,205 --> 00:12:48,445 Speaker 1: There were a few signs around that time when she 241 00:12:48,565 --> 00:12:52,565 Speaker 1: was living with Andrew and his mum that perhaps she 242 00:12:52,605 --> 00:12:55,285 Speaker 1: was struggling with what it meant to be an adult. 243 00:12:55,325 --> 00:12:57,765 Speaker 1: What were some of the things that sort of were 244 00:12:57,765 --> 00:12:59,365 Speaker 1: in the back of your mind as concerns. 245 00:13:00,245 --> 00:13:02,565 Speaker 2: Well, she couldn't learn to drive, for one thing, that 246 00:13:02,765 --> 00:13:06,525 Speaker 2: was looking back. I think that's a real insight into 247 00:13:06,565 --> 00:13:07,165 Speaker 2: her mind. 248 00:13:07,765 --> 00:13:10,405 Speaker 1: When you say she couldn't she refused to, or she 249 00:13:10,525 --> 00:13:11,725 Speaker 1: was didn't understand. 250 00:13:13,645 --> 00:13:16,165 Speaker 2: She could operate the car perfectly, and it was a manual, 251 00:13:16,245 --> 00:13:18,325 Speaker 2: she had no trouble with that, But say she would 252 00:13:18,365 --> 00:13:22,685 Speaker 2: come to an intersection. She had such a poor sense 253 00:13:22,725 --> 00:13:27,165 Speaker 2: of where she was in physical skills, Yeah, always, And 254 00:13:27,685 --> 00:13:31,285 Speaker 2: when she tried to drive, she couldn't remember what lane 255 00:13:31,285 --> 00:13:34,325 Speaker 2: to go in if she turned in an intersection. Well, 256 00:13:34,365 --> 00:13:37,165 Speaker 2: she couldn't. She couldn't seem to remember to look at 257 00:13:37,165 --> 00:13:39,085 Speaker 2: the speeder at the same time that she was driving. 258 00:13:39,285 --> 00:13:41,125 Speaker 2: As long as you've got someone, as long as she 259 00:13:41,165 --> 00:13:43,685 Speaker 2: had one of us sitting beside her to help her, 260 00:13:43,965 --> 00:13:47,845 Speaker 2: like watch your speeder, look and watched for that car, 261 00:13:48,925 --> 00:13:50,685 Speaker 2: she never got to the point where we didn't need 262 00:13:50,725 --> 00:13:51,125 Speaker 2: to do that. 263 00:13:51,645 --> 00:13:53,565 Speaker 1: So at home she was kind of buffeted from the 264 00:13:53,605 --> 00:13:59,805 Speaker 1: world by you and to Andrew Andrew's house, and he 265 00:13:59,845 --> 00:14:03,605 Speaker 1: and his mom sort of took care of her, buffeted 266 00:14:03,645 --> 00:14:05,925 Speaker 1: her from the world, and she was you know, she 267 00:14:05,925 --> 00:14:08,085 Speaker 1: did well at UNI, and she completed her degree, which 268 00:14:08,125 --> 00:14:11,205 Speaker 1: is no small thing, and the boundaries of that. 269 00:14:11,125 --> 00:14:12,565 Speaker 2: Clearly suited her exactly. 270 00:14:13,165 --> 00:14:15,725 Speaker 1: And then what happened after UNI. 271 00:14:15,725 --> 00:14:18,165 Speaker 2: Well, Andrew bought them a house, which was great. You know, 272 00:14:18,205 --> 00:14:20,405 Speaker 2: he got a better car. It was all sort of 273 00:14:20,445 --> 00:14:23,765 Speaker 2: progressing in the way that young people's lives do. And 274 00:14:23,765 --> 00:14:25,885 Speaker 2: Andrew loved her so much he wanted her to see 275 00:14:25,925 --> 00:14:29,565 Speaker 2: her succeed, so they got this little house. But once 276 00:14:29,605 --> 00:14:32,925 Speaker 2: she was there, as he said, without the comforts and 277 00:14:33,005 --> 00:14:35,925 Speaker 2: support of Andrew's mother, she just couldn't cope. And I 278 00:14:35,925 --> 00:14:38,725 Speaker 2: didn't realize that she was beginning to drink during the day. 279 00:14:40,365 --> 00:14:42,885 Speaker 2: And we expected her to be applying for jobs or 280 00:14:42,925 --> 00:14:46,045 Speaker 2: looking for courses to progress through the process of becoming 281 00:14:46,045 --> 00:14:49,845 Speaker 2: a forensic psychologist, and she just looked at cat videos. 282 00:14:50,685 --> 00:14:52,645 Speaker 2: So Andrew would be calling her from work saying, you know, 283 00:14:52,685 --> 00:14:55,645 Speaker 2: what are you doing. Yeah, and then she met a 284 00:14:55,685 --> 00:14:58,965 Speaker 2: friend who introduced her to weed. He said, you're drinking 285 00:14:58,965 --> 00:15:00,965 Speaker 2: too much. You'd be better off if you smoked upe. 286 00:15:01,805 --> 00:15:05,325 Speaker 2: So she started that and then she left Andrew's place 287 00:15:05,365 --> 00:15:07,005 Speaker 2: at the end of that year and came back to us, 288 00:15:07,045 --> 00:15:08,925 Speaker 2: and that's when the real generation began. 289 00:15:09,605 --> 00:15:12,965 Speaker 1: Was she being treated for mental health issues during this time, Like, 290 00:15:13,005 --> 00:15:16,365 Speaker 1: after she'd recovered from anorexia, was she still hearing voices? 291 00:15:16,485 --> 00:15:18,805 Speaker 1: Was she on any medication? Had you received any sort 292 00:15:18,845 --> 00:15:19,765 Speaker 1: of diagnosis. 293 00:15:20,325 --> 00:15:23,165 Speaker 2: No, we didn't have a diagnosis beyond anorexia. She wasn't 294 00:15:23,205 --> 00:15:26,245 Speaker 2: outpatient at the Children's until she was eighteen, so she 295 00:15:26,365 --> 00:15:28,885 Speaker 2: was being treated for both. I mean, she was being 296 00:15:29,125 --> 00:15:32,005 Speaker 2: monitored supervised for both her physical health and she had 297 00:15:32,005 --> 00:15:35,805 Speaker 2: a counselor every week. After that. She did take herself 298 00:15:35,805 --> 00:15:41,485 Speaker 2: to a psychiatrist during university, which I didn't know that person, 299 00:15:41,525 --> 00:15:43,845 Speaker 2: but she I thought that was great that she did that, 300 00:15:44,525 --> 00:15:48,325 Speaker 2: and he prescribed as serahqual. She seemed to be able 301 00:15:48,325 --> 00:15:50,165 Speaker 2: to fill those scripts whenever she wanted to, So she 302 00:15:50,805 --> 00:15:52,445 Speaker 2: had a lot of serahkal, Which is. 303 00:15:52,925 --> 00:15:55,325 Speaker 1: What were the symptoms that she was treating, Like, was 304 00:15:55,325 --> 00:15:56,765 Speaker 1: it depression, was it anxiety? 305 00:15:56,885 --> 00:16:00,325 Speaker 2: Was it depression? Anxiety? She didn't talk about voices during 306 00:16:00,365 --> 00:16:05,005 Speaker 2: that time, but once she started smoking up and then 307 00:16:05,045 --> 00:16:07,045 Speaker 2: she went on to synthetic weed. 308 00:16:07,885 --> 00:16:10,365 Speaker 1: Tell me about synthetic weed, because you talk about that 309 00:16:10,485 --> 00:16:14,125 Speaker 1: and then quite you know, in a dark human way, 310 00:16:14,365 --> 00:16:18,725 Speaker 1: how you became involved in buying that for her. Tell 311 00:16:18,765 --> 00:16:21,125 Speaker 1: me about synthetic weed, because I've never heard of it before. 312 00:16:21,205 --> 00:16:23,205 Speaker 2: It's called synthetic weed in the States. They have a 313 00:16:23,205 --> 00:16:26,085 Speaker 2: lot of different names for it, like skunk and K two. 314 00:16:26,685 --> 00:16:30,645 Speaker 2: But it's not actually marijuana. It's a cannabinoid, yeah, sprayed 315 00:16:30,725 --> 00:16:35,685 Speaker 2: onto dried herbs. So just like chemicals. Yeah, it's chemicals 316 00:16:35,685 --> 00:16:36,845 Speaker 2: on dried herbs and. 317 00:16:36,965 --> 00:16:38,485 Speaker 1: To mimic the effect of marijuana. 318 00:16:38,605 --> 00:16:43,805 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's worse. It's quite damaging. They can be 319 00:16:43,885 --> 00:16:46,685 Speaker 2: damaging chemicals. From what I understand, most of them come 320 00:16:46,685 --> 00:16:51,245 Speaker 2: from China, and if the government outlaws one of the chemicals, 321 00:16:51,285 --> 00:16:54,405 Speaker 2: they just changed the composition slightly so that it's it's 322 00:16:54,405 --> 00:16:59,685 Speaker 2: a little bit different. But it's not the same as marijuana, 323 00:16:59,725 --> 00:17:01,525 Speaker 2: even though they call it that. They call it synthetic 324 00:17:01,525 --> 00:17:06,405 Speaker 2: marijuana or synthetic cannabis. People literally, I believe, literally don't 325 00:17:06,405 --> 00:17:08,725 Speaker 2: know what's in it, and it can be. Deaths have 326 00:17:08,805 --> 00:17:11,805 Speaker 2: occurred from it because it can be they spray it 327 00:17:11,925 --> 00:17:14,805 Speaker 2: and like bits of can be more powerful than others, 328 00:17:15,285 --> 00:17:18,325 Speaker 2: and she smoked a lot of that, and she just 329 00:17:18,365 --> 00:17:20,685 Speaker 2: got worse and worse. I can see now during that 330 00:17:20,765 --> 00:17:24,925 Speaker 2: time she became really paranoid. The voices really started to 331 00:17:25,245 --> 00:17:26,405 Speaker 2: scream in her head then. 332 00:17:26,605 --> 00:17:30,845 Speaker 1: Which is something that can happen from particularly around marijuana 333 00:17:30,925 --> 00:17:34,565 Speaker 1: or cannabis or let alone synthetic weed. And you say 334 00:17:34,605 --> 00:17:36,685 Speaker 1: that you're writing the book, that you think that's really 335 00:17:36,685 --> 00:17:39,405 Speaker 1: when her brain sort of broke open, and I think 336 00:17:39,565 --> 00:17:40,565 Speaker 1: the real damage. 337 00:17:40,805 --> 00:17:43,485 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she hadn't always had a propensity for 338 00:17:43,565 --> 00:17:46,365 Speaker 2: mental illness, but I think it was definitely exacerbated by 339 00:17:46,405 --> 00:17:50,285 Speaker 2: the use of drugs, especially synthetic weed, and then later 340 00:17:50,405 --> 00:17:53,365 Speaker 2: when she dabbled with ice. But she was never a 341 00:17:53,445 --> 00:17:57,725 Speaker 2: nice addict, she did use it and it was very damaging. 342 00:17:58,765 --> 00:18:01,685 Speaker 1: What was her behavior like during during these years, I 343 00:18:01,725 --> 00:18:04,285 Speaker 1: mean you must have been terribly worried. You write about 344 00:18:04,285 --> 00:18:09,325 Speaker 1: how she started to ride the trains and meet people. 345 00:18:10,125 --> 00:18:11,845 Speaker 1: How was that playing out? Oh? 346 00:18:11,885 --> 00:18:14,445 Speaker 2: It was terrible. I mean that's when a lot of 347 00:18:14,805 --> 00:18:16,405 Speaker 2: I had to use a lot of my own mental 348 00:18:16,445 --> 00:18:21,405 Speaker 2: health techniques to learn tools. I did go to a 349 00:18:21,405 --> 00:18:24,565 Speaker 2: psychologist from my own mental health and she helped me 350 00:18:24,645 --> 00:18:26,645 Speaker 2: with some tools, Like I said, how can I stop 351 00:18:26,725 --> 00:18:30,005 Speaker 2: and worrying about Anna constantly? You know, it's just taking 352 00:18:30,085 --> 00:18:32,685 Speaker 2: up every minute of yeah, oh, my brain. And she 353 00:18:32,725 --> 00:18:36,285 Speaker 2: said she gave me a good technique. She used to 354 00:18:36,685 --> 00:18:38,725 Speaker 2: just try and limit the worry to one hour a day. 355 00:18:40,045 --> 00:18:42,005 Speaker 2: She'd say, you know, when your brain just goes there, 356 00:18:42,125 --> 00:18:44,725 Speaker 2: just say, look, just choose an hour, which I chose 357 00:18:44,765 --> 00:18:47,205 Speaker 2: three to four in the afternoon because that's my least 358 00:18:47,245 --> 00:18:48,645 Speaker 2: favorite time of the day. 359 00:18:50,245 --> 00:18:52,485 Speaker 1: And what would you do during that hour? You just 360 00:18:52,525 --> 00:18:55,845 Speaker 1: sit down and go okay. Well. 361 00:18:55,845 --> 00:18:58,485 Speaker 2: It just was a good technique because sometimes I forgot 362 00:18:58,525 --> 00:19:01,685 Speaker 2: to worry. And also I had work that I loved. 363 00:19:01,725 --> 00:19:05,365 Speaker 2: I tootored children from grade three up to VCU level. 364 00:19:06,005 --> 00:19:08,405 Speaker 2: So that was a big mental health technique for me 365 00:19:08,525 --> 00:19:11,245 Speaker 2: because I did everything I could possibly think of to 366 00:19:11,285 --> 00:19:14,405 Speaker 2: help Anna. And beyond that, I thought, well, if I 367 00:19:14,445 --> 00:19:17,365 Speaker 2: can't help her, at least I can help the next 368 00:19:17,365 --> 00:19:26,245 Speaker 2: generation in some way. 369 00:19:27,045 --> 00:19:31,245 Speaker 1: During those years, it's like you went slowly from worrying 370 00:19:31,325 --> 00:19:35,525 Speaker 1: about well, what she going to do next, and how 371 00:19:35,565 --> 00:19:37,605 Speaker 1: she going to get a license and how she going 372 00:19:37,645 --> 00:19:41,725 Speaker 1: to get a job, to worrying about her physical safety 373 00:19:41,925 --> 00:19:44,885 Speaker 1: and that she would die how did you get to 374 00:19:44,925 --> 00:19:45,685 Speaker 1: that point? 375 00:19:46,565 --> 00:19:49,245 Speaker 2: Because she well, for one thing, she said she wanted 376 00:19:49,245 --> 00:19:52,645 Speaker 2: to die, A part of her wanted to die. She's 377 00:19:52,685 --> 00:19:57,485 Speaker 2: in early twenties then, so that was really I mean, 378 00:19:57,485 --> 00:19:59,765 Speaker 2: that's a horrible thing for a mother to hear. And 379 00:20:01,125 --> 00:20:05,565 Speaker 2: also she was just so reckless with her life. She 380 00:20:05,565 --> 00:20:08,885 Speaker 2: she looked young, people thought she was a teenager. So 381 00:20:08,925 --> 00:20:11,405 Speaker 2: she get dressed up in these little girly clothes from 382 00:20:11,445 --> 00:20:15,045 Speaker 2: Kmart they barely covered her bottom and got on the 383 00:20:15,045 --> 00:20:19,125 Speaker 2: train in order to meet men because she wanted That 384 00:20:19,285 --> 00:20:22,925 Speaker 2: was her method of getting drugs, basically, and attention. She 385 00:20:23,045 --> 00:20:26,245 Speaker 2: loved attention. So she moves up to some guy on 386 00:20:26,285 --> 00:20:29,165 Speaker 2: the train and he would tell her how beautiful she was, 387 00:20:29,205 --> 00:20:30,725 Speaker 2: and why don't you come home with me and we'll 388 00:20:30,725 --> 00:20:33,325 Speaker 2: have some drugs. And so that's what she would do. 389 00:20:33,365 --> 00:20:35,085 Speaker 2: And we didn't know where she was, and she wouldn't 390 00:20:35,085 --> 00:20:37,845 Speaker 2: answer her phones. We just thought it was a matter 391 00:20:37,885 --> 00:20:41,805 Speaker 2: of time before something happened to her. And also being 392 00:20:41,845 --> 00:20:44,325 Speaker 2: suicidal or having what that I guess they call it 393 00:20:44,405 --> 00:20:48,765 Speaker 2: suicidal ideation. My husband John, who's a very devoted father, 394 00:20:51,045 --> 00:20:54,485 Speaker 2: he'd and very real a man of total realism. He 395 00:20:54,525 --> 00:20:56,965 Speaker 2: thought she was going to jump in front of a train. 396 00:20:57,005 --> 00:20:59,125 Speaker 2: That's what he thought. So you know, we're just worried 397 00:20:59,165 --> 00:21:03,085 Speaker 2: about her lifestyle. And also she would become unconscious a lot, 398 00:21:03,125 --> 00:21:07,165 Speaker 2: which I suppose is really technically oding. You couldn't wake 399 00:21:07,245 --> 00:21:07,565 Speaker 2: her up. 400 00:21:08,005 --> 00:21:10,285 Speaker 1: I love how you just drop that into conversation. You know, 401 00:21:10,365 --> 00:21:12,965 Speaker 1: she just became unconscious a lot. How did she become 402 00:21:13,005 --> 00:21:15,245 Speaker 1: unconscious because she would drink herself into. 403 00:21:15,565 --> 00:21:19,005 Speaker 2: She would take a cocktail of alcohol, synthetic weed and 404 00:21:19,045 --> 00:21:21,965 Speaker 2: the sarahqual which I mentioned before, which is an edgio 405 00:21:21,965 --> 00:21:25,525 Speaker 2: psychotic but also a very powerful sedative. She would take 406 00:21:25,565 --> 00:21:28,605 Speaker 2: that and then she would just pass out, pass out. Literally, 407 00:21:28,605 --> 00:21:29,445 Speaker 2: you couldn't wake her up. 408 00:21:29,725 --> 00:21:33,325 Speaker 1: There's pictures with this odd picture, a heartbreaking picture in 409 00:21:33,365 --> 00:21:36,085 Speaker 1: the book where you say, you know, for months and months, 410 00:21:36,165 --> 00:21:38,445 Speaker 1: I think maybe even years, she would just pass out 411 00:21:38,765 --> 00:21:41,525 Speaker 1: sporadically on the couch and she'd have the cat lying 412 00:21:41,525 --> 00:21:45,965 Speaker 1: on top of her. At least then I imagine she 413 00:21:46,085 --> 00:21:48,765 Speaker 1: was safe under your roof and you could see her. Yeah, 414 00:21:48,805 --> 00:21:50,525 Speaker 1: it must have been more worrying when you didn't know 415 00:21:50,525 --> 00:21:50,845 Speaker 1: where she. 416 00:21:50,925 --> 00:21:54,805 Speaker 2: Was well exactly because she was off with some guy 417 00:21:55,205 --> 00:21:58,445 Speaker 2: and she was unconscious in his bed. You know, she 418 00:21:58,485 --> 00:22:01,845 Speaker 2: could she could easily well, I thought she could easily 419 00:22:01,925 --> 00:22:05,485 Speaker 2: just stop breathing because I did ask a doctor. I said, 420 00:22:05,485 --> 00:22:09,125 Speaker 2: without combination of sarah qul and alcohol and weed, could 421 00:22:09,405 --> 00:22:11,925 Speaker 2: could that kill her? And the doctor said yes, it 422 00:22:11,925 --> 00:22:14,845 Speaker 2: couldn't repress respiration to the point where she'll stop breathing. 423 00:22:15,085 --> 00:22:16,805 Speaker 2: And you literally couldn't wake her up. You know, you'd 424 00:22:16,805 --> 00:22:19,965 Speaker 2: shake her and yell in her ear, she wouldn't wake up. 425 00:22:20,005 --> 00:22:21,765 Speaker 2: So I don't know if that qualifies as an od 426 00:22:21,885 --> 00:22:23,445 Speaker 2: but she was definitely unconscious. 427 00:22:24,325 --> 00:22:27,765 Speaker 1: Now, the sort of the situation you describe, it sounds 428 00:22:27,805 --> 00:22:31,045 Speaker 1: like she was sort of very passive, but then things 429 00:22:31,085 --> 00:22:33,245 Speaker 1: took a turn. Tell me about the time in the 430 00:22:33,285 --> 00:22:35,805 Speaker 1: kitchen where she grabbed a knife and you saw her 431 00:22:36,125 --> 00:22:37,405 Speaker 1: violence for the first time. 432 00:22:38,605 --> 00:22:42,325 Speaker 2: Well, it was when her dad confronted her. By that time, 433 00:22:42,405 --> 00:22:46,645 Speaker 2: she was She didn't leave the house because she decided 434 00:22:47,005 --> 00:22:50,885 Speaker 2: that she wanted to get better. So she made this 435 00:22:51,285 --> 00:22:54,005 Speaker 2: packed with herself that she was going to give up weed, 436 00:22:54,165 --> 00:22:58,725 Speaker 2: synthetic weed. So she did. She gave up those. But 437 00:22:58,805 --> 00:23:03,005 Speaker 2: then to compensate to keep the demons from screaming in 438 00:23:03,045 --> 00:23:04,685 Speaker 2: her head, she had to drink so much alcohol that 439 00:23:04,685 --> 00:23:07,925 Speaker 2: it was ridiculous and one day her dad just said, 440 00:23:08,285 --> 00:23:12,005 Speaker 2: you're not drinking anymore, and he took the beer and 441 00:23:12,005 --> 00:23:15,365 Speaker 2: threw it out or something, and she just got so 442 00:23:15,405 --> 00:23:17,725 Speaker 2: angry with him that she grabbed the butcher knife. Thank goodness, 443 00:23:17,725 --> 00:23:19,285 Speaker 2: she was wearing a big puffy jacket and he was 444 00:23:19,365 --> 00:23:22,125 Speaker 2: right beside her. She just picked it up and aimed 445 00:23:22,125 --> 00:23:24,805 Speaker 2: at chardia chest and he grabbed it and she was 446 00:23:24,845 --> 00:23:29,045 Speaker 2: like trying to to use it to stab herself, and 447 00:23:29,085 --> 00:23:31,165 Speaker 2: he was like holding it back and it took all 448 00:23:31,205 --> 00:23:34,645 Speaker 2: his strength because once she gets angry, she's really strong, 449 00:23:34,805 --> 00:23:39,285 Speaker 2: this little, tiny, skinny girl. And yeah, I didn't know 450 00:23:39,325 --> 00:23:42,085 Speaker 2: what to do, and they were and he wouldn't go 451 00:23:42,205 --> 00:23:45,685 Speaker 2: and she wouldn't so they she was screaming her head off. 452 00:23:45,685 --> 00:23:48,645 Speaker 2: So I rang her doctor, who I really trusted, and 453 00:23:48,685 --> 00:23:50,325 Speaker 2: I said, doctor deb what should I do? Listen to 454 00:23:50,365 --> 00:23:52,165 Speaker 2: this and she goes, you got to call the police, Mary, 455 00:23:52,805 --> 00:23:56,165 Speaker 2: and I said, but I don't want to because there's 456 00:23:56,165 --> 00:24:00,685 Speaker 2: been too many incidences of the police. You know what 457 00:24:00,965 --> 00:24:03,205 Speaker 2: can happen if you call it the police for a 458 00:24:03,205 --> 00:24:05,925 Speaker 2: mentally ill person. But in the end I did. 459 00:24:07,205 --> 00:24:10,205 Speaker 1: Of police shooting to lead help people. 460 00:24:10,965 --> 00:24:13,485 Speaker 2: But in the end they came in It was great. 461 00:24:13,525 --> 00:24:18,365 Speaker 1: In the end. Tell me about the policewoman that came, Well, 462 00:24:18,405 --> 00:24:20,405 Speaker 1: there was a policeman and a police woman, but they 463 00:24:20,445 --> 00:24:22,805 Speaker 1: came in and by that time, as soon as Anna 464 00:24:23,245 --> 00:24:26,125 Speaker 1: heard the car, she immediately settled down and became a 465 00:24:26,125 --> 00:24:26,885 Speaker 1: good little girl. 466 00:24:27,245 --> 00:24:29,365 Speaker 2: But the police said, you know, you did exactly the 467 00:24:29,445 --> 00:24:29,725 Speaker 2: right thing. 468 00:24:29,765 --> 00:24:29,965 Speaker 1: Mary. 469 00:24:29,965 --> 00:24:32,845 Speaker 2: You should have called you needed to call us. And 470 00:24:32,925 --> 00:24:36,885 Speaker 2: she said she had a background of psychology, the police woman, 471 00:24:36,925 --> 00:24:38,365 Speaker 2: and she said, this girl needs to be in a 472 00:24:38,405 --> 00:24:41,525 Speaker 2: hospital long term, and then she needs to rehab. And 473 00:24:41,565 --> 00:24:44,485 Speaker 2: she said, well, we'll take her to the Northern Hospital 474 00:24:45,285 --> 00:24:47,005 Speaker 2: and they'll put her in the psych ward and she 475 00:24:47,005 --> 00:24:50,365 Speaker 2: can be under the adult mental health protection And I 476 00:24:50,405 --> 00:24:53,205 Speaker 2: remember still remembered her. She said to me, if she's 477 00:24:53,245 --> 00:24:56,565 Speaker 2: medicated well, gets into good nutrition and sleep, she can 478 00:24:56,565 --> 00:24:59,405 Speaker 2: have a lot of good days. And that just sounded 479 00:24:59,445 --> 00:25:00,725 Speaker 2: like magic to my ears. 480 00:25:01,085 --> 00:25:03,725 Speaker 1: Oh really, because I just thought, oh, my goodness, good days. 481 00:25:04,565 --> 00:25:07,845 Speaker 1: How low is the bar? That's how low it had 482 00:25:07,845 --> 00:25:10,765 Speaker 1: got to right where good a few good days sounded 483 00:25:10,845 --> 00:25:12,485 Speaker 1: like yeah, Nirvana to you. 484 00:25:13,005 --> 00:25:16,285 Speaker 2: So we took her in our car with the police 485 00:25:16,325 --> 00:25:19,485 Speaker 2: behind us, and I was sitting in the back seat 486 00:25:19,485 --> 00:25:20,965 Speaker 2: with her and the police woman said, you know, just 487 00:25:20,965 --> 00:25:23,765 Speaker 2: give me a call if anything happens. And here we go, 488 00:25:24,325 --> 00:25:26,925 Speaker 2: going seventy kilometers an hour at Pascal of our road 489 00:25:27,365 --> 00:25:31,245 Speaker 2: and tries to jump out of the car, and so 490 00:25:31,325 --> 00:25:33,845 Speaker 2: then we go, E are you so the car the 491 00:25:33,885 --> 00:25:35,725 Speaker 2: police car pulls up and says you have to get 492 00:25:35,725 --> 00:25:38,645 Speaker 2: out and come with us now. And later the police 493 00:25:38,645 --> 00:25:44,725 Speaker 2: woman said to me, I knew that would happen. But 494 00:25:44,805 --> 00:25:47,885 Speaker 2: when we got to the hospital, they just even though 495 00:25:47,925 --> 00:25:51,365 Speaker 2: she was admitted, taken in by the police, and I 496 00:25:51,405 --> 00:25:54,245 Speaker 2: assume they said she needs to be in the psych word. 497 00:25:54,965 --> 00:25:56,925 Speaker 2: All they did was a lot or sober up that day, 498 00:25:56,965 --> 00:25:59,765 Speaker 2: and at the end of the day this was one 499 00:25:59,765 --> 00:26:02,365 Speaker 2: of the worst moments of my life. They said, well, 500 00:26:02,965 --> 00:26:04,525 Speaker 2: she's sober enough and I'll take her home. 501 00:26:05,845 --> 00:26:08,165 Speaker 1: But she tried to kill herself twice in the space 502 00:26:08,205 --> 00:26:09,965 Speaker 1: of just a couple of hours with the knife and 503 00:26:09,965 --> 00:26:11,125 Speaker 1: then by jumping out of the car. 504 00:26:11,285 --> 00:26:16,765 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was horrible. I was just that the 505 00:26:17,125 --> 00:26:19,285 Speaker 2: gatekeeper who we got to seat while I call her 506 00:26:19,285 --> 00:26:24,405 Speaker 2: the gatekeeper, she said, you know, she doesn't qualify to 507 00:26:24,445 --> 00:26:26,525 Speaker 2: go into the psych ward. She doesn't meet the criteria. 508 00:26:27,005 --> 00:26:27,925 Speaker 1: She's not sick enough. 509 00:26:28,085 --> 00:26:31,565 Speaker 2: I guess, so and I was just like, I was 510 00:26:31,685 --> 00:26:35,165 Speaker 2: just devastated because we were exhausted. It's not like this 511 00:26:35,245 --> 00:26:37,925 Speaker 2: girl slept at night. Usually, you know, we'd be up 512 00:26:37,925 --> 00:26:39,405 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night trying to keep her 513 00:26:39,405 --> 00:26:42,765 Speaker 2: from doing whatever she planned to do to herself or 514 00:26:42,965 --> 00:26:47,845 Speaker 2: run off or yeah, I just just a few days 515 00:26:47,845 --> 00:26:49,725 Speaker 2: in the psych ward would be great, just to give 516 00:26:49,765 --> 00:26:52,525 Speaker 2: us a rest, just to give give us some respite. 517 00:26:52,805 --> 00:26:55,365 Speaker 2: But she just said take her home, and that was horrible. 518 00:26:55,445 --> 00:26:57,525 Speaker 2: I remember saying to what, We're just going to take 519 00:26:57,525 --> 00:26:58,765 Speaker 2: her home to die? 520 00:26:59,765 --> 00:27:02,325 Speaker 1: And what do they say? 521 00:27:02,325 --> 00:27:03,285 Speaker 2: Bye? 522 00:27:04,925 --> 00:27:07,325 Speaker 1: Is that when you first really became aware of the 523 00:27:08,045 --> 00:27:11,485 Speaker 1: deficiencies in the public health system for dealing with people 524 00:27:11,525 --> 00:27:12,925 Speaker 1: who had mental illness? 525 00:27:13,405 --> 00:27:16,525 Speaker 2: Well, I think that sort of hope that I had 526 00:27:16,525 --> 00:27:18,965 Speaker 2: when the police woman talked to me and the crash 527 00:27:19,085 --> 00:27:22,605 Speaker 2: into like, well, she's our responsibility. It was just like 528 00:27:23,805 --> 00:27:26,485 Speaker 2: a terrible feeling because we didn't know what to do 529 00:27:26,605 --> 00:27:29,205 Speaker 2: with her. And I had tried everything. I mean, I'm 530 00:27:29,245 --> 00:27:33,245 Speaker 2: an educated person. I've got heaps of skills as a 531 00:27:33,285 --> 00:27:37,245 Speaker 2: journalist and an educator, and I had dreams of material 532 00:27:37,245 --> 00:27:40,285 Speaker 2: about what might help her, and I tried to get 533 00:27:40,285 --> 00:27:42,925 Speaker 2: her into various programs, but if a person doesn't want 534 00:27:42,925 --> 00:27:45,685 Speaker 2: to participate themselves and they're an adult. 535 00:27:46,565 --> 00:27:49,405 Speaker 1: What can you do? Yeah, you know, her behavior sort 536 00:27:49,405 --> 00:27:52,605 Speaker 1: of escalated after this, and you talk about taking her 537 00:27:52,765 --> 00:27:56,205 Speaker 1: to McDonald's and she wanted a couple of meals and 538 00:27:57,205 --> 00:27:58,165 Speaker 1: what happened then. 539 00:27:59,125 --> 00:28:02,125 Speaker 2: Well, that was one of the scariest bits of her life. 540 00:28:02,125 --> 00:28:04,165 Speaker 2: When she had met up. She'd met a guy on 541 00:28:04,165 --> 00:28:08,325 Speaker 2: the train who introduced her to Ice, which she really liked, 542 00:28:09,445 --> 00:28:14,205 Speaker 2: but he was abusing her and she called me up. 543 00:28:14,365 --> 00:28:16,805 Speaker 2: This is is previous to the McDonald's incident. You know, 544 00:28:17,005 --> 00:28:21,245 Speaker 2: she was saying, you know, this guy's got me captive 545 00:28:21,405 --> 00:28:23,765 Speaker 2: and what can I do? And oh, I can't remember 546 00:28:23,765 --> 00:28:27,605 Speaker 2: the exact sequence of events, but she escaped from him 547 00:28:27,605 --> 00:28:30,565 Speaker 2: and came home. But then you know, she sobers up 548 00:28:30,605 --> 00:28:33,085 Speaker 2: and she's feeling like, oh that Ice was pretty good, 549 00:28:33,085 --> 00:28:36,285 Speaker 2: and he's on the phone saying and I'm really sorry 550 00:28:36,325 --> 00:28:38,685 Speaker 2: and come back and I'll I'll be really nice to 551 00:28:38,725 --> 00:28:39,365 Speaker 2: you this time. 552 00:28:39,565 --> 00:28:42,445 Speaker 1: And she had cigarette burns all over yeah from him. 553 00:28:42,565 --> 00:28:50,205 Speaker 2: Yeah, and well several cigarette burns. Anyway, So me and 554 00:28:50,285 --> 00:28:55,525 Speaker 2: Katie and John and Tom that's Katie's partner, were desperately 555 00:28:55,525 --> 00:28:57,565 Speaker 2: trying to keep her from going. I rang the police 556 00:28:57,565 --> 00:28:59,285 Speaker 2: and I said, can I keep her here? You know, 557 00:28:59,325 --> 00:29:01,245 Speaker 2: I was in tears. I was desperate, like she's going 558 00:29:01,325 --> 00:29:03,285 Speaker 2: to run off and go with this person who's going 559 00:29:03,325 --> 00:29:06,165 Speaker 2: to abuse her, kill her maybe, And they said, well 560 00:29:06,205 --> 00:29:11,125 Speaker 2: you can't, you can't detain her. That's a song. So 561 00:29:11,645 --> 00:29:14,165 Speaker 2: she I saw her going down the drive and I 562 00:29:14,245 --> 00:29:16,725 Speaker 2: ran after her, saying, you know, what are you doing. 563 00:29:16,765 --> 00:29:18,605 Speaker 2: I'm going for a walk, she says. So I went 564 00:29:18,645 --> 00:29:20,885 Speaker 2: with her, and that's when she went to McDonald's and 565 00:29:21,005 --> 00:29:25,085 Speaker 2: ordered to like meals with all this stuff, and then 566 00:29:25,085 --> 00:29:27,525 Speaker 2: she sat down and she just spread it all over 567 00:29:27,565 --> 00:29:30,805 Speaker 2: the table. She just took the the burgers out, you know, 568 00:29:30,805 --> 00:29:32,845 Speaker 2: and took them apart, you know, and just put and 569 00:29:33,085 --> 00:29:35,165 Speaker 2: sprinkled the chips all over them. So it was just 570 00:29:35,445 --> 00:29:39,165 Speaker 2: a huge mess. And then she left. So she and 571 00:29:39,205 --> 00:29:41,445 Speaker 2: then I was like, for a minute, I was trying 572 00:29:41,485 --> 00:29:43,245 Speaker 2: to clean up the mess, thinking she said she was 573 00:29:43,245 --> 00:29:44,965 Speaker 2: going to go out and get us going out for 574 00:29:45,005 --> 00:29:49,205 Speaker 2: a smoke. But after like a couple of seconds of 575 00:29:49,245 --> 00:29:50,805 Speaker 2: trying to clean up, I thought, oh, I have to 576 00:29:50,845 --> 00:29:53,005 Speaker 2: go after her. So I went out and she was gone. 577 00:29:53,045 --> 00:29:54,645 Speaker 2: She hadn't gone out for a smoke she'd gone to 578 00:29:54,685 --> 00:29:58,445 Speaker 2: the train to go meet with this guy, and she 579 00:29:58,525 --> 00:30:00,645 Speaker 2: knew that I would. That would give her a couple 580 00:30:00,725 --> 00:30:04,245 Speaker 2: of minutes delay to get out, because she knew that 581 00:30:04,285 --> 00:30:05,765 Speaker 2: I dried to clean up the mess. 582 00:30:06,565 --> 00:30:10,205 Speaker 1: Were you and Katie, your eldest daughter and your husband? 583 00:30:10,245 --> 00:30:13,245 Speaker 1: Were you ever scared for your own lives? 584 00:30:15,245 --> 00:30:21,325 Speaker 2: I wasn't personally, but looking back, I think maybe we 585 00:30:21,325 --> 00:30:23,605 Speaker 2: should have been, because she got to that point where 586 00:30:24,245 --> 00:30:28,005 Speaker 2: she thought that John and I were not her parents anymore. 587 00:30:28,485 --> 00:30:33,245 Speaker 2: She thought we were too evil twins, doppelgangers, whatever you 588 00:30:33,285 --> 00:30:36,445 Speaker 2: call that phenomenon where a person thinks that the person 589 00:30:36,925 --> 00:30:39,245 Speaker 2: that their loved one still looks like their loved one, 590 00:30:39,325 --> 00:30:42,045 Speaker 2: but it's not really them anymore. So she was in psychasis, 591 00:30:42,165 --> 00:30:44,925 Speaker 2: that's what she thought about us, and she would ring hers. 592 00:30:45,245 --> 00:30:46,965 Speaker 2: I mean, I remember one night at midnight, and I 593 00:30:47,005 --> 00:30:48,925 Speaker 2: hate being woken up at the night. Katie knows this, 594 00:30:49,085 --> 00:30:51,645 Speaker 2: but Katie rang me and she was crying and she said, 595 00:30:52,765 --> 00:30:56,525 Speaker 2: you know, Anna's totally crazy. She thinks you're somebody else. 596 00:30:57,125 --> 00:31:00,725 Speaker 2: And apparently she'd been saying to Katie, Katie, listen to me. 597 00:31:01,565 --> 00:31:04,805 Speaker 2: They are not who we think they are anymore. You 598 00:31:04,885 --> 00:31:07,045 Speaker 2: gotta listen to me, Katie, Mom and Dad aren't who 599 00:31:07,205 --> 00:31:12,365 Speaker 2: you think they are. They just you know, Mums pretends 600 00:31:12,365 --> 00:31:16,765 Speaker 2: that she's this really nice person. But you know, so, yeah, 601 00:31:16,765 --> 00:31:17,765 Speaker 2: that's the point she'd got to. 602 00:31:18,005 --> 00:31:19,885 Speaker 1: So through all of this, how do you go on 603 00:31:19,965 --> 00:31:22,765 Speaker 1: living a life because life goes on and you've got 604 00:31:22,805 --> 00:31:25,725 Speaker 1: another daughter, and she has a partner, and you and 605 00:31:25,765 --> 00:31:29,445 Speaker 1: your husband have a marriage, and yet you are in 606 00:31:29,485 --> 00:31:32,165 Speaker 1: this constant state of crisis. 607 00:31:33,325 --> 00:31:35,925 Speaker 2: Well, in the end, we just we just couldn't when 608 00:31:38,645 --> 00:31:42,645 Speaker 2: And it just came to her head one weekend when 609 00:31:42,685 --> 00:31:45,445 Speaker 2: we had she was supposed to go and she'd gone 610 00:31:45,685 --> 00:31:49,245 Speaker 2: into detoc several times for ten days at a time. 611 00:31:49,605 --> 00:31:51,845 Speaker 2: She was scheduled to go into another round of detocs. 612 00:31:52,005 --> 00:31:55,565 Speaker 2: And because she had so few friendships girls, that's how 613 00:31:55,565 --> 00:31:58,245 Speaker 2: she used detocs. Actually, she would go in and that's 614 00:31:58,285 --> 00:32:02,525 Speaker 2: how she would meet some friends, so called friends. The 615 00:32:02,565 --> 00:32:04,925 Speaker 2: best thing they did was give us ten days of respite. 616 00:32:05,005 --> 00:32:07,765 Speaker 2: That was like such a great holiday. But anyway, she 617 00:32:07,805 --> 00:32:09,805 Speaker 2: was going to go in for ten days of and 618 00:32:09,845 --> 00:32:13,285 Speaker 2: then she was supposed to go into a program called Catalysts, 619 00:32:13,565 --> 00:32:15,325 Speaker 2: which is six weeks of rehabilitation. 620 00:32:15,605 --> 00:32:17,965 Speaker 1: That's a private program that you pay for. 621 00:32:18,205 --> 00:32:21,085 Speaker 2: No, it's the government. Well it's the government one. Yeah, 622 00:32:21,125 --> 00:32:25,565 Speaker 2: But she took herself off that weekend because she had 623 00:32:25,645 --> 00:32:28,685 Speaker 2: learned that if you get really, really blattile before you 624 00:32:28,765 --> 00:32:31,245 Speaker 2: go into detox, then they give you the maximum amount 625 00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:34,485 Speaker 2: of value when you arrive. So she went off with 626 00:32:34,525 --> 00:32:36,925 Speaker 2: this guy and she just disappeared and we didn't know 627 00:32:36,925 --> 00:32:39,285 Speaker 2: where she was, and that was really disappointing because we 628 00:32:39,325 --> 00:32:42,445 Speaker 2: wanted her to get into detox and this rehab program. 629 00:32:43,005 --> 00:32:44,525 Speaker 2: And when she rang us in the middle of the 630 00:32:44,605 --> 00:32:48,085 Speaker 2: night saying, send two hundred dollars to my account immediately 631 00:32:48,325 --> 00:32:52,765 Speaker 2: or someone's going to stab me, and we just said, well, 632 00:32:52,805 --> 00:32:54,365 Speaker 2: I said, you know, what do you want that for? 633 00:32:54,485 --> 00:32:55,965 Speaker 2: And John said, no, we're not going to do that. 634 00:32:57,165 --> 00:32:58,965 Speaker 2: And then this person rang us, so we don't know 635 00:32:58,965 --> 00:33:01,405 Speaker 2: who it is, you know, abusing us and carrying on 636 00:33:01,605 --> 00:33:04,965 Speaker 2: and accusing us of terrible things which I don't even 637 00:33:05,005 --> 00:33:07,885 Speaker 2: want to go into the details of. But it just 638 00:33:07,885 --> 00:33:10,405 Speaker 2: became too much and John said, that's it. She's not 639 00:33:10,445 --> 00:33:14,645 Speaker 2: coming back. And also she had guys you know, that 640 00:33:14,685 --> 00:33:17,645 Speaker 2: she was insisting that we have at the house, and 641 00:33:17,685 --> 00:33:20,125 Speaker 2: it just really came to the breaking point. And I 642 00:33:20,165 --> 00:33:21,805 Speaker 2: was so relieved when he said that because I couldn't 643 00:33:21,845 --> 00:33:25,005 Speaker 2: have sat up myself. But when he said it, I thought, 644 00:33:25,085 --> 00:33:27,805 Speaker 2: thank god. I mean to think that I could get 645 00:33:27,805 --> 00:33:30,205 Speaker 2: to that point with my own daughter, but I'd reached 646 00:33:30,445 --> 00:33:32,405 Speaker 2: compassion fatigue by that stage. 647 00:33:33,005 --> 00:33:34,765 Speaker 1: Tell me about Black Sunday. 648 00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:41,245 Speaker 2: Well, I got a call from a policeman, which wasn't unusual, 649 00:33:41,365 --> 00:33:46,285 Speaker 2: but yeah, he said, he said, are you close with 650 00:33:46,325 --> 00:33:49,045 Speaker 2: your daughter? And I said yes, And he said, you 651 00:33:49,085 --> 00:33:51,205 Speaker 2: realize she was living with some men and I said yes, 652 00:33:51,205 --> 00:33:55,005 Speaker 2: and he said the elderly man has She's been involved 653 00:33:55,005 --> 00:33:58,325 Speaker 2: in an assault with the elderly man there and he's 654 00:33:58,365 --> 00:34:01,565 Speaker 2: passed away, and my mind just like went to pieces. 655 00:34:01,645 --> 00:34:05,845 Speaker 2: Then I was just screaming, and john came in and 656 00:34:05,885 --> 00:34:10,365 Speaker 2: said what's wrong, and I said, you know, she's she's killed. Johnny. 657 00:34:10,725 --> 00:34:13,285 Speaker 1: He was the man who one of the men that 658 00:34:13,325 --> 00:34:14,885 Speaker 1: she was living with in his house. He was much 659 00:34:14,925 --> 00:34:18,205 Speaker 1: older than her, and he was troubled in his own way, 660 00:34:18,245 --> 00:34:21,285 Speaker 1: but was a kind person who tried to take care 661 00:34:21,325 --> 00:34:24,565 Speaker 1: of her. His family don't want you to talk about 662 00:34:24,965 --> 00:34:28,085 Speaker 1: too much about him, so we'll sort of skip to 663 00:34:28,125 --> 00:34:32,005 Speaker 1: the next part. When did you next see your daughter 664 00:34:32,045 --> 00:34:32,485 Speaker 1: after that? 665 00:34:33,885 --> 00:34:36,245 Speaker 2: Well, it took about two weeks for me to be 666 00:34:36,285 --> 00:34:39,565 Speaker 2: able to communicate with her at all, apart from the 667 00:34:39,565 --> 00:34:41,365 Speaker 2: one phone call that you are allowed to make. That 668 00:34:41,645 --> 00:34:44,205 Speaker 2: that is true from the television shows. She was allowed 669 00:34:44,205 --> 00:34:46,445 Speaker 2: to make one phone call to me. She chose to 670 00:34:46,445 --> 00:34:51,165 Speaker 2: make it to me. What did she say, Well, she said, 671 00:34:52,085 --> 00:34:57,405 Speaker 2: they've charged me with murder. And I already knew from 672 00:34:57,405 --> 00:35:02,445 Speaker 2: the policeman several hours before, basically that she had done this. 673 00:35:02,565 --> 00:35:04,405 Speaker 2: I didn't even know how it had happened at that 674 00:35:04,485 --> 00:35:08,205 Speaker 2: time at that stage, but through the hours of the day, 675 00:35:09,645 --> 00:35:14,085 Speaker 2: I went next door to my neighbor because it took 676 00:35:14,165 --> 00:35:16,205 Speaker 2: Katie a while to get there because she lived three 677 00:35:16,245 --> 00:35:18,365 Speaker 2: and a half hours away at that time. So I 678 00:35:18,405 --> 00:35:19,845 Speaker 2: just went to my next door neighbor that I was 679 00:35:19,885 --> 00:35:22,245 Speaker 2: extremely close to, which is great, and just talked to 680 00:35:22,245 --> 00:35:23,885 Speaker 2: her the whole time. And she knew Anna really well 681 00:35:23,925 --> 00:35:26,405 Speaker 2: from the time she was born, so that was great. 682 00:35:26,405 --> 00:35:27,765 Speaker 2: And so I got the call while I was with 683 00:35:27,805 --> 00:35:31,365 Speaker 2: my friend next door, and I just said I still 684 00:35:31,405 --> 00:35:35,885 Speaker 2: love you and you can have a future. And that 685 00:35:35,925 --> 00:35:38,605 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that I'm not Yeah, that it's not a 686 00:35:38,685 --> 00:35:42,485 Speaker 2: terrible thing that she did, and it's the you know, 687 00:35:42,605 --> 00:35:44,125 Speaker 2: it's a horrible thing that I have to put in 688 00:35:44,205 --> 00:35:49,045 Speaker 2: a different part of my mind. But I also had 689 00:35:49,045 --> 00:35:52,245 Speaker 2: my daughter to that I still loved, so I wanted 690 00:35:52,245 --> 00:35:54,605 Speaker 2: to tell her that and to because I was afraid 691 00:35:54,605 --> 00:35:57,205 Speaker 2: she'd kill herself then, because I thought she'd be so 692 00:35:57,245 --> 00:35:58,285 Speaker 2: sorry for what she did. 693 00:35:59,245 --> 00:35:59,805 Speaker 1: And was she. 694 00:36:00,365 --> 00:36:07,645 Speaker 2: Yes, she's and we haven't talked much about it at all. 695 00:36:07,445 --> 00:36:09,725 Speaker 2: We keep that separate. But she did say to me 696 00:36:09,765 --> 00:36:12,605 Speaker 2: at one stage, I felt like I was possessed and 697 00:36:12,645 --> 00:36:15,165 Speaker 2: she was just so sick at that stage. Yeah, she 698 00:36:15,285 --> 00:36:19,485 Speaker 2: was very unwell mentally when it happened. 699 00:36:20,565 --> 00:36:24,165 Speaker 1: She was sentenced to seventeen years from jail with thirteen 700 00:36:24,245 --> 00:36:28,645 Speaker 1: years non parole, and she's served two of those years. 701 00:36:28,565 --> 00:36:31,325 Speaker 2: Coming up to three. In November, it'll be three years, 702 00:36:31,325 --> 00:36:33,845 Speaker 2: so she has ten before her earliest release date. 703 00:36:35,245 --> 00:36:37,965 Speaker 1: How she doing in jail great. 704 00:36:38,525 --> 00:36:41,045 Speaker 2: I mean, she still has some problems because she's still Anna, 705 00:36:41,165 --> 00:36:43,245 Speaker 2: but she's better than she ever has been in her 706 00:36:43,565 --> 00:36:47,965 Speaker 2: since she started Kindred because she's got what we wanted, 707 00:36:48,365 --> 00:36:52,965 Speaker 2: good nutrition, sleep, medication given to her at certain times 708 00:36:52,965 --> 00:36:54,845 Speaker 2: of the day, and as she said in one of 709 00:36:54,845 --> 00:36:59,525 Speaker 2: her letters to me, and I'm not lonely without all 710 00:36:59,565 --> 00:37:03,725 Speaker 2: the adult responsibilities to think of, like she's got. She 711 00:37:03,765 --> 00:37:05,845 Speaker 2: doesn't have to think of housing, she doesn't even have 712 00:37:05,885 --> 00:37:09,525 Speaker 2: to think of getting her scripts or her worrying about 713 00:37:09,525 --> 00:37:14,605 Speaker 2: her essential link payments. So she's got time to concentrate 714 00:37:14,725 --> 00:37:18,645 Speaker 2: on human relationships, which she really needed to learn about. 715 00:37:19,365 --> 00:37:23,885 Speaker 2: And sometimes she makes mistakes and pays the consequences. But 716 00:37:25,565 --> 00:37:29,725 Speaker 2: she's really well liked at the prison, and she has 717 00:37:29,765 --> 00:37:33,125 Speaker 2: formed some really nice friendships. She likes helping the new 718 00:37:33,165 --> 00:37:36,685 Speaker 2: girls coming in. She calls them her crack babies because 719 00:37:36,725 --> 00:37:39,045 Speaker 2: they're only eighteen years old, some of them when they 720 00:37:39,125 --> 00:37:42,685 Speaker 2: come in, and they really like being looked after Biana. 721 00:37:42,765 --> 00:37:45,405 Speaker 2: She makes them sandwiches and tells them jokes. 722 00:37:46,125 --> 00:37:47,165 Speaker 1: So she's found purpose. 723 00:37:47,325 --> 00:37:51,765 Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, she's doing very well though. How's her 724 00:37:51,845 --> 00:37:58,245 Speaker 2: mental health much better? Partly because of the routines, the 725 00:37:58,285 --> 00:38:03,765 Speaker 2: regular medication. And she told me that it took a 726 00:38:03,845 --> 00:38:07,605 Speaker 2: year for her mind to clear, even though you know, 727 00:38:07,685 --> 00:38:10,205 Speaker 2: she was still good during that first year, she said, 728 00:38:10,205 --> 00:38:12,685 Speaker 2: for her mind to really become clear and feel like 729 00:38:12,805 --> 00:38:18,565 Speaker 2: she's totally mentally healthy, it took a year. But yeah, 730 00:38:18,885 --> 00:38:19,565 Speaker 2: she's good now. 731 00:38:20,685 --> 00:38:23,645 Speaker 1: And what's your relationship like with her now? Do you 732 00:38:23,725 --> 00:38:26,245 Speaker 1: feel less scared for her? 733 00:38:28,605 --> 00:38:31,405 Speaker 2: Yes, it's great. Now that she's in prison, I still 734 00:38:31,605 --> 00:38:34,485 Speaker 2: worry about when she gets out, and I hope that. 735 00:38:35,845 --> 00:38:40,165 Speaker 2: Actually Katie and I both want to become involved in 736 00:38:40,205 --> 00:38:44,765 Speaker 2: advocacy because I think it's so important just for supports 737 00:38:44,805 --> 00:38:50,605 Speaker 2: around prisoners in general. But we intend to concentrate on 738 00:38:50,685 --> 00:38:53,045 Speaker 2: women having support when they get out. I mean we 739 00:38:53,165 --> 00:38:56,245 Speaker 2: have literally I've literally seen women on the side of 740 00:38:56,245 --> 00:39:00,125 Speaker 2: the road outside the prison who've just been released. I mean, 741 00:39:00,165 --> 00:39:03,965 Speaker 2: what hoped? How can they cope, especially if they've been 742 00:39:03,965 --> 00:39:07,805 Speaker 2: in for a few years and there's a as you 743 00:39:07,845 --> 00:39:10,245 Speaker 2: would know, a high rate of people going back in, 744 00:39:11,005 --> 00:39:15,445 Speaker 2: and sometimes that's because it's better inside than outside for them. 745 00:39:16,445 --> 00:39:18,605 Speaker 1: Is she I imagine because of the nature of her crime, 746 00:39:18,645 --> 00:39:21,285 Speaker 1: she's in a maximum security prison. 747 00:39:21,725 --> 00:39:24,485 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's only one prison basically in Victoria, and that's 748 00:39:24,485 --> 00:39:29,725 Speaker 2: a maximum security one. There's a minimum security at Tean Gower, 749 00:39:29,925 --> 00:39:33,965 Speaker 2: but from my understanding, that's fairly small and it's designed 750 00:39:33,965 --> 00:39:36,725 Speaker 2: for people either at the end of their sentence or 751 00:39:37,645 --> 00:39:40,605 Speaker 2: I think that's basically what it is, but I don't 752 00:39:40,605 --> 00:39:43,045 Speaker 2: know for sure. I'm not an expert on that, but yeah, 753 00:39:43,045 --> 00:39:44,405 Speaker 2: it's a maximum security prison. 754 00:39:44,605 --> 00:39:46,405 Speaker 1: How often do you visit her and what are those 755 00:39:46,485 --> 00:39:47,085 Speaker 1: visits like. 756 00:39:48,125 --> 00:39:50,685 Speaker 2: We look forward to them. I visit her. This is 757 00:39:50,685 --> 00:39:52,765 Speaker 2: a typical week. I visit her on Friday for two 758 00:39:52,845 --> 00:39:55,805 Speaker 2: hours and just just me and her. Sometimes I take 759 00:39:55,805 --> 00:39:58,445 Speaker 2: a friend along, but often it's just her and me, 760 00:39:58,525 --> 00:40:01,645 Speaker 2: and the hours go really quickly. We just sit really 761 00:40:01,645 --> 00:40:03,805 Speaker 2: close to each other in this cafe and hold hands 762 00:40:03,805 --> 00:40:06,325 Speaker 2: and talk about our week. I go through my week 763 00:40:06,325 --> 00:40:09,685 Speaker 2: and she tells me about hers. Then on Saturday afternoon, 764 00:40:09,845 --> 00:40:13,245 Speaker 2: usually John goes out and either me or Katie goes 765 00:40:13,405 --> 00:40:15,285 Speaker 2: with him, and we take all of your little boy 766 00:40:16,285 --> 00:40:18,125 Speaker 2: and he plays with the other kids, and we go 767 00:40:18,245 --> 00:40:22,725 Speaker 2: in the playground and you know, shoot baskets and eat cakes. 768 00:40:23,405 --> 00:40:29,325 Speaker 2: And then on Sunday afternoon there's a program for children 769 00:40:29,405 --> 00:40:31,965 Speaker 2: to be dropped off and spend some time alone with 770 00:40:32,005 --> 00:40:34,845 Speaker 2: their mothers, so Olli participates in that's as well. 771 00:40:35,485 --> 00:40:38,525 Speaker 1: So when you talk about how she's doing well on 772 00:40:38,565 --> 00:40:42,525 Speaker 1: the inside and the boundaries that are in place, the 773 00:40:42,605 --> 00:40:45,725 Speaker 1: fact that she has no access to drugs and alcohol, 774 00:40:45,845 --> 00:40:48,765 Speaker 1: the fact that she's relieved of a lot of the 775 00:40:48,765 --> 00:40:53,445 Speaker 1: responsibilities that go with living in the world, is this 776 00:40:53,525 --> 00:40:56,045 Speaker 1: the kind of care that you dreamed that she could 777 00:40:56,125 --> 00:41:00,445 Speaker 1: get on the outside without having to commit a horrible crime. 778 00:41:01,085 --> 00:41:03,405 Speaker 2: Yes, I guess that's the point I should make, is 779 00:41:03,445 --> 00:41:07,205 Speaker 2: that it was a terrible way for her to receive help. 780 00:41:07,325 --> 00:41:11,405 Speaker 2: I mean, she a good man with his life, and 781 00:41:13,725 --> 00:41:15,285 Speaker 2: one of the things we'd like to do is get 782 00:41:15,285 --> 00:41:17,765 Speaker 2: a conversation started around what do we do now that 783 00:41:17,805 --> 00:41:24,205 Speaker 2: there's no institutions for mentally ill people. I mean, there 784 00:41:24,245 --> 00:41:29,365 Speaker 2: are places for them in psych wards. But Anna I believe, 785 00:41:29,485 --> 00:41:32,965 Speaker 2: and she believes this now we've discussed it together. She 786 00:41:33,085 --> 00:41:34,845 Speaker 2: needed to be contained, She needed to be in a 787 00:41:34,845 --> 00:41:37,165 Speaker 2: place where she couldn't work out of I mean we 788 00:41:37,205 --> 00:41:40,285 Speaker 2: could have. We chose not to pay thousands of dollars 789 00:41:40,325 --> 00:41:42,685 Speaker 2: to put her into private rehab, but even if we 790 00:41:42,725 --> 00:41:44,645 Speaker 2: had done that, she could have walked out the second 791 00:41:44,725 --> 00:41:48,725 Speaker 2: day she was there, or the second week. So the 792 00:41:48,805 --> 00:41:53,925 Speaker 2: thing about prison is that it's involuntary, and we actually 793 00:41:53,925 --> 00:41:57,805 Speaker 2: believe that some people need the same kind of conditions 794 00:41:57,805 --> 00:42:00,125 Speaker 2: on the outside before they commit a crime. And I 795 00:42:00,165 --> 00:42:01,965 Speaker 2: know it's a very vexed issue. You know, how do 796 00:42:02,005 --> 00:42:03,965 Speaker 2: you virtually put someone here? 797 00:42:04,245 --> 00:42:07,925 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like committing someone. The idea of having someone 798 00:42:07,965 --> 00:42:13,045 Speaker 1: involuntarily committed big because once they're over eighteen, the responsibility 799 00:42:13,085 --> 00:42:15,445 Speaker 1: is on the family, and yet you have no power. 800 00:42:15,765 --> 00:42:18,965 Speaker 1: Do you have no say in what happens to that person? 801 00:42:19,045 --> 00:42:20,605 Speaker 1: You just have to clean up the pieces. 802 00:42:21,045 --> 00:42:23,725 Speaker 2: That's right. And we so wish that that could have 803 00:42:23,805 --> 00:42:27,485 Speaker 2: happened before she committed a crime. And she's not the 804 00:42:27,485 --> 00:42:32,445 Speaker 2: only young woman like that out at the prison. So please, 805 00:42:32,525 --> 00:42:36,085 Speaker 2: let's think about that as a society. Let's not have 806 00:42:36,165 --> 00:42:38,805 Speaker 2: the prison be the place that mops up these people 807 00:42:38,805 --> 00:42:41,485 Speaker 2: with mental illnesses after they've committed a crime. Let's do 808 00:42:41,605 --> 00:42:42,525 Speaker 2: something about it before. 809 00:42:43,245 --> 00:42:45,565 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to No Filter. You can buy 810 00:42:45,685 --> 00:42:49,245 Speaker 1: Mary's book, It's called Gorgeous Girl, at any good bookstore 811 00:42:49,365 --> 00:42:52,925 Speaker 1: or at Apple dot co forward slash Mama Maya and 812 00:42:53,205 --> 00:42:55,885 Speaker 1: Mary once it made known that all proceeds of the 813 00:42:55,885 --> 00:42:58,805 Speaker 1: book are going to a charity that helps women in trauma. 814 00:42:59,645 --> 00:43:02,125 Speaker 1: And keep your ears out too for next week's conversation 815 00:43:02,405 --> 00:43:06,605 Speaker 1: where I talk to Anna's older sister, Mary's other daughter Katie, 816 00:43:07,005 --> 00:43:10,605 Speaker 1: whose life was changed in her own extraordinary way by 817 00:43:10,645 --> 00:43:13,525 Speaker 1: her sister's crime. And if you want to read an 818 00:43:13,565 --> 00:43:18,685 Speaker 1: extract of Mary's book, head to Mamamea dot com dot au. Now, 819 00:43:18,805 --> 00:43:21,485 Speaker 1: if you're searching for something else to listen to, can 820 00:43:21,525 --> 00:43:25,965 Speaker 1: I highly recommend checking out Jesse stephens interview with Jermaine 821 00:43:25,965 --> 00:43:29,765 Speaker 1: Grea about consent and rape. It wasn't going to be 822 00:43:29,845 --> 00:43:32,605 Speaker 1: my narrative that I was a rappee. I hadn't become 823 00:43:32,645 --> 00:43:36,045 Speaker 1: a career rape. Parts of it are pretty heavy going, 824 00:43:36,205 --> 00:43:40,965 Speaker 1: but Jermaine Greer is an extraordinary icon of her generation, 825 00:43:41,125 --> 00:43:44,205 Speaker 1: an important voice in feminism, and it was just so 826 00:43:44,325 --> 00:43:47,885 Speaker 1: brilliant to listen to her speaking to a young woman, 827 00:43:48,005 --> 00:43:51,965 Speaker 1: a millennial woman, who had a lot of questions. So 828 00:43:52,005 --> 00:43:54,605 Speaker 1: you can find that in the No Filter feed as well. 829 00:43:54,925 --> 00:43:57,765 Speaker 1: This podcast was produced by Eliza Ratliffe. I am Maya 830 00:43:57,805 --> 00:44:00,965 Speaker 1: Friedman and I'll see you on the homepage mamameya dot 831 00:44:01,005 --> 00:44:04,765 Speaker 1: com dot au. If you're looking for something else to 832 00:44:04,805 --> 00:44:08,205 Speaker 1: listen to, like and follow all of our Mamamea podcasts 833 00:44:08,245 --> 00:44:11,045 Speaker 1: which are currently bringing you Hot Pod Summer one hundred 834 00:44:11,125 --> 00:44:15,205 Speaker 1: hours of Summer listens from spicy conversations to incredible stories, 835 00:44:15,405 --> 00:44:18,645 Speaker 1: fashion beauty, where the friends in your Ear is over 836 00:44:18,725 --> 00:44:19,045 Speaker 1: Summer