1 00:00:11,485 --> 00:00:14,165 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,805 --> 00:00:18,285 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,325 --> 00:00:20,605 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:27,165 --> 00:00:29,525 Speaker 3: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for people who 5 00:00:29,565 --> 00:00:33,045 Speaker 3: don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We bring you the 6 00:00:33,085 --> 00:00:37,445 Speaker 3: week in culture, trends and news, and if parents are 7 00:00:37,565 --> 00:00:40,885 Speaker 3: thinking about it, we are talking about it. I'm Monice Bowley, 8 00:00:41,165 --> 00:00:42,165 Speaker 3: I'm Amelia Leaster. 9 00:00:42,485 --> 00:00:43,885 Speaker 1: I am Stacey Hicks. 10 00:00:43,925 --> 00:00:45,965 Speaker 2: And first of all, I have some breaking news that 11 00:00:46,045 --> 00:00:48,805 Speaker 2: I just saw as we walked into this record. Who's 12 00:00:48,805 --> 00:00:50,405 Speaker 2: the first time I've ever been ahead of a trend 13 00:00:50,405 --> 00:00:52,165 Speaker 2: in my life? Iebags are cool? 14 00:00:52,245 --> 00:00:54,245 Speaker 1: Now, what what does that mean? 15 00:00:54,645 --> 00:00:57,125 Speaker 2: Well, lots of women are going and getting surgery to 16 00:00:57,165 --> 00:01:01,085 Speaker 2: remove their lower bleff, which is essentially their lower eyebags. 17 00:01:01,405 --> 00:01:05,165 Speaker 2: And now Jessica Defino's newsletter is saying, no, no, it's French. 18 00:01:05,645 --> 00:01:09,845 Speaker 2: It's cool to have eyebags. So we're cool, right. 19 00:01:09,685 --> 00:01:10,485 Speaker 1: That's great to know. 20 00:01:11,005 --> 00:01:14,685 Speaker 4: I have another fashion trend. I need to mention it, okay, 21 00:01:14,845 --> 00:01:17,604 Speaker 4: or rather not a fashion trend. Denim jackets. Now, I'm 22 00:01:17,604 --> 00:01:19,845 Speaker 4: not calling you out. I have a denim jacket that 23 00:01:19,884 --> 00:01:21,764 Speaker 4: I'm wearing today. I just didn't want to match with you. 24 00:01:21,964 --> 00:01:24,084 Speaker 1: That's right. But I am in a denim jacket right now, 25 00:01:24,084 --> 00:01:26,725 Speaker 1: which I love. But what you're about to say, well, 26 00:01:26,804 --> 00:01:27,725 Speaker 1: I have read that. 27 00:01:28,125 --> 00:01:31,604 Speaker 4: Apparently they're cringe and hopelessly millennial, and gen Z is 28 00:01:31,604 --> 00:01:32,725 Speaker 4: making fun of us for them. 29 00:01:32,765 --> 00:01:33,365 Speaker 1: Have you heard that? 30 00:01:33,604 --> 00:01:36,005 Speaker 2: I have heard it, and I just wear it anyway. 31 00:01:36,045 --> 00:01:39,005 Speaker 2: I'm wearing my ankle socks, I'm wearing my big denim jacket. 32 00:01:39,084 --> 00:01:40,285 Speaker 1: I don't care what they say. 33 00:01:40,365 --> 00:01:42,205 Speaker 4: Do you think that there are some denim jackets that 34 00:01:42,244 --> 00:01:43,084 Speaker 4: are better than others? 35 00:01:43,205 --> 00:01:44,044 Speaker 1: Yes? I do think so. 36 00:01:44,125 --> 00:01:46,124 Speaker 2: I think the ones that they think a cringe are 37 00:01:46,164 --> 00:01:48,005 Speaker 2: like the cropped denim jacket. 38 00:01:48,045 --> 00:01:50,285 Speaker 1: Oh okay, well you know that we wear on a 39 00:01:50,405 --> 00:01:53,285 Speaker 1: night out. That's what they're talking about. Mine's baggy and oversized. 40 00:01:53,325 --> 00:01:53,965 Speaker 1: So I'm cool. 41 00:01:54,125 --> 00:01:57,484 Speaker 2: I'm maintaining along with my eyebags, got my baggy jacket. 42 00:01:57,565 --> 00:01:58,565 Speaker 1: Everything's fine. 43 00:01:58,684 --> 00:02:02,484 Speaker 3: I just bought a denim jacket yesterday off Deepot. Obviously 44 00:02:02,525 --> 00:02:04,764 Speaker 3: that's why they're selling it. It was probably some gen 45 00:02:04,885 --> 00:02:10,364 Speaker 3: Z going and I'm like, oh, that's cool, all right. 46 00:02:10,445 --> 00:02:11,765 Speaker 3: Coming up on today's show. 47 00:02:11,725 --> 00:02:14,245 Speaker 2: The guy who created adolescence has an idea for how 48 00:02:14,325 --> 00:02:17,764 Speaker 2: dads can connect with their sons. It's beautiful, but one 49 00:02:17,805 --> 00:02:19,005 Speaker 2: of us hates it. 50 00:02:19,445 --> 00:02:21,965 Speaker 4: There is a kids party photo that was taken in 51 00:02:22,045 --> 00:02:26,485 Speaker 4: Sydney recently that has ignited a great Australian debate. Can 52 00:02:26,605 --> 00:02:28,405 Speaker 4: you bags a park table? 53 00:02:28,445 --> 00:02:28,565 Speaker 5: Oh? 54 00:02:29,245 --> 00:02:31,925 Speaker 3: And it's Alpha clock And what I mean by that 55 00:02:32,205 --> 00:02:34,484 Speaker 3: is it's the time of year that I remember I'm 56 00:02:34,485 --> 00:02:37,765 Speaker 3: the last mum on earth without a little spy living 57 00:02:37,845 --> 00:02:40,965 Speaker 3: in our house. So I want to talk traditions. Are 58 00:02:41,005 --> 00:02:44,085 Speaker 3: there some traditions we should embrace and are there others 59 00:02:44,085 --> 00:02:45,605 Speaker 3: that we should just leave alone? 60 00:02:46,285 --> 00:02:49,845 Speaker 4: But first, celebrities are making us feel bad about our 61 00:02:49,885 --> 00:02:53,365 Speaker 4: screen time habits again. Miranda Kerr was on a podcast 62 00:02:53,365 --> 00:02:55,965 Speaker 4: this week. You may remember her as the winner of 63 00:02:55,965 --> 00:02:59,445 Speaker 4: the Dolly Model contest back in the day Victoria's Secret Angel. 64 00:02:59,645 --> 00:03:03,565 Speaker 4: Now married to Evan Spiegel, who was the founder of Snapchat, 65 00:03:03,885 --> 00:03:06,925 Speaker 4: living in a palicial mansion in southern California. Here she 66 00:03:07,245 --> 00:03:10,125 Speaker 4: is talking about her screen time policy. 67 00:03:10,485 --> 00:03:14,805 Speaker 5: Well, my husband is very anti screens for the young ones. 68 00:03:15,085 --> 00:03:17,645 Speaker 5: I've said to him, Look, something that feels good to 69 00:03:17,685 --> 00:03:20,285 Speaker 5: me is just like maybe on the weekend or a 70 00:03:20,325 --> 00:03:23,645 Speaker 5: special occasion, curling up with the kids, like the six 71 00:03:23,685 --> 00:03:25,965 Speaker 5: and seven year old and the teenager if he wants 72 00:03:26,005 --> 00:03:28,485 Speaker 5: to join in and like snuggling up and watching a movie, 73 00:03:28,525 --> 00:03:28,925 Speaker 5: and he's like. 74 00:03:29,005 --> 00:03:30,285 Speaker 4: Okay, but not every weekend. 75 00:03:30,365 --> 00:03:34,045 Speaker 5: Although my seven year old did just do a little 76 00:03:34,245 --> 00:03:37,485 Speaker 5: a learning program that he could do over the holidays, 77 00:03:37,565 --> 00:03:41,965 Speaker 5: and he learned like a little mindcraft like thing, and 78 00:03:42,245 --> 00:03:45,005 Speaker 5: so he was, you know, he obviously had screen time there. 79 00:03:45,445 --> 00:03:48,405 Speaker 5: But then when we talk about my teenager, our teenager 80 00:03:48,605 --> 00:03:53,045 Speaker 5: who is fourteen almost fifteen, so I have the parental 81 00:03:53,085 --> 00:03:56,445 Speaker 5: controls on his phone. And then on top of that, 82 00:03:56,965 --> 00:04:00,325 Speaker 5: he doesn't have social media, which we think is important, 83 00:04:00,365 --> 00:04:02,645 Speaker 5: but he does have Snapchat, which is the only way 84 00:04:02,685 --> 00:04:04,125 Speaker 5: he communicates with his friends. 85 00:04:04,325 --> 00:04:07,005 Speaker 1: I could not love this more. 86 00:04:07,085 --> 00:04:08,525 Speaker 2: You thought I was going to say, I hay, I 87 00:04:08,645 --> 00:04:10,685 Speaker 2: really did think that he were about to go on 88 00:04:10,685 --> 00:04:11,205 Speaker 2: a ranch. 89 00:04:12,165 --> 00:04:14,085 Speaker 1: Here's why I'm delighted by it. 90 00:04:14,805 --> 00:04:18,645 Speaker 4: To recap, Miranda and Evans's younger kids don't have screen time, 91 00:04:18,765 --> 00:04:21,885 Speaker 4: not even movies because they're very, very bad. But her 92 00:04:21,925 --> 00:04:24,844 Speaker 4: son does play a little thing called minecraft. 93 00:04:25,765 --> 00:04:27,005 Speaker 1: Her older kid. 94 00:04:26,925 --> 00:04:30,365 Speaker 4: Doesn't have any kind of social media because that would 95 00:04:30,445 --> 00:04:34,365 Speaker 4: be terrible, but he does have Snapchat. 96 00:04:35,205 --> 00:04:37,845 Speaker 1: I love it. What's the problems? 97 00:04:38,205 --> 00:04:39,805 Speaker 3: It's a bit all over the shop, which you know 98 00:04:39,845 --> 00:04:44,365 Speaker 3: we all are with screen time. It's extremely relatable, extremely relatable. 99 00:04:44,765 --> 00:04:47,645 Speaker 3: What I think is really interesting about this is she 100 00:04:47,725 --> 00:04:51,285 Speaker 3: paints this picture where her husband, the founder of Snapchat, 101 00:04:51,325 --> 00:04:55,685 Speaker 3: is very anti screens. And that's an interesting thing that 102 00:04:55,725 --> 00:04:59,765 Speaker 3: we've seen before with these big tech pros Bill Gates, 103 00:05:00,005 --> 00:05:04,805 Speaker 3: Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg do not let their kids on screens. 104 00:05:04,925 --> 00:05:07,445 Speaker 3: And it is this kind of do as I say, 105 00:05:07,445 --> 00:05:10,205 Speaker 3: but not as I do in reverse. Oh, it's fine 106 00:05:10,525 --> 00:05:13,405 Speaker 3: everyone else, but not for my kids. It's this I 107 00:05:13,485 --> 00:05:15,765 Speaker 3: know what's behind the curtain, and I don't want that 108 00:05:15,765 --> 00:05:17,605 Speaker 3: for my kids, and that is scary. 109 00:05:17,965 --> 00:05:20,885 Speaker 4: Yeah, let's unpack what that actually means. The people who 110 00:05:20,965 --> 00:05:24,685 Speaker 4: know the most about these apps and devices, who jerry 111 00:05:24,805 --> 00:05:27,245 Speaker 4: rigged them to make us all addicted to them and 112 00:05:27,325 --> 00:05:29,485 Speaker 4: know all the tips and tricks on how to do that, 113 00:05:29,845 --> 00:05:32,404 Speaker 4: they are the very people who are making clear to 114 00:05:32,445 --> 00:05:34,205 Speaker 4: their kids that they should not go near them. 115 00:05:34,445 --> 00:05:34,805 Speaker 1: Yeah. 116 00:05:35,165 --> 00:05:37,325 Speaker 2: I'm so surprised you like this, because aren't you just 117 00:05:37,405 --> 00:05:39,925 Speaker 2: irritated by the privileged flex. 118 00:05:39,805 --> 00:05:40,605 Speaker 1: To say no? 119 00:05:40,685 --> 00:05:42,805 Speaker 2: But I can afford my children the time and the 120 00:05:42,845 --> 00:05:45,805 Speaker 2: activities and to not have to be on screen. 121 00:05:46,485 --> 00:05:47,485 Speaker 1: Here's why I loved it. 122 00:05:47,685 --> 00:05:52,685 Speaker 4: Every parent has these arbitrary and actually very silly rules 123 00:05:52,685 --> 00:05:55,765 Speaker 4: that make them feel better about their parenting style, like, oh, 124 00:05:55,805 --> 00:05:58,565 Speaker 4: I don't let my kids have screen time except minecraft. 125 00:05:58,805 --> 00:06:00,925 Speaker 4: Oh I don't let them use social media such a 126 00:06:00,965 --> 00:06:02,844 Speaker 4: little bit of snapschat and not a monster. 127 00:06:03,485 --> 00:06:05,565 Speaker 3: And he's on it all the time. She says, he's 128 00:06:05,565 --> 00:06:06,445 Speaker 3: on it all day long. 129 00:06:06,685 --> 00:06:09,205 Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah, I love the little branded mention there 130 00:06:09,205 --> 00:06:12,445 Speaker 2: for her husband's company, Like, oh, of course, but Snapchat's 131 00:06:12,445 --> 00:06:13,125 Speaker 2: absolutely fine. 132 00:06:13,165 --> 00:06:16,125 Speaker 1: Snapchat's great. So it's quite ironic. 133 00:06:16,445 --> 00:06:19,325 Speaker 4: I heard an interesting quote from Bill Gates daughter, Phoebe. 134 00:06:19,485 --> 00:06:21,445 Speaker 4: She's been in the news a bit lately. She's in 135 00:06:21,485 --> 00:06:24,045 Speaker 4: her twenties, and she has just launched a shopping app 136 00:06:24,085 --> 00:06:26,525 Speaker 4: where apparently it helps you get the best price for things, 137 00:06:26,605 --> 00:06:29,445 Speaker 4: querying why Bill Gates daughter needs to find the best 138 00:06:29,445 --> 00:06:33,285 Speaker 4: price for things. But anyway, she was talking about when 139 00:06:33,325 --> 00:06:36,245 Speaker 4: she was growing up, her father made a distinction between 140 00:06:36,325 --> 00:06:38,725 Speaker 4: how he had used technology as a kid and how 141 00:06:38,765 --> 00:06:40,845 Speaker 4: he wanted his kids to use it. He said, when 142 00:06:40,885 --> 00:06:43,685 Speaker 4: he was a kid, he experimented with technology and that 143 00:06:43,845 --> 00:06:45,525 Speaker 4: is what led him to become a billionaire and the 144 00:06:45,525 --> 00:06:48,605 Speaker 4: founder of Microsoft. But he didn't want his kids experimenting 145 00:06:48,605 --> 00:06:51,085 Speaker 4: the technology because he already knows what's wrong with it, 146 00:06:51,325 --> 00:06:54,165 Speaker 4: and so for them he wanted them to quote grow. 147 00:06:54,005 --> 00:06:55,245 Speaker 1: Into it thoughtfully. 148 00:06:56,085 --> 00:06:58,005 Speaker 4: I just reckon, We've got to listen to these tech 149 00:06:58,005 --> 00:07:00,885 Speaker 4: bros when they tell us this. It's very revealing, Amelia. 150 00:07:00,925 --> 00:07:03,525 Speaker 3: These tech bros are rich, and they have their time 151 00:07:03,725 --> 00:07:06,604 Speaker 3: and the resources to have their kids not on screens. 152 00:07:06,605 --> 00:07:09,525 Speaker 3: They probably can afford to pay for pottery workshops and 153 00:07:10,005 --> 00:07:12,245 Speaker 3: camp that are offline and all these things. But if 154 00:07:12,285 --> 00:07:15,005 Speaker 3: you're a normal family, screens are very much the way 155 00:07:15,045 --> 00:07:17,645 Speaker 3: that dinner gets made, the way that work gets done. 156 00:07:17,805 --> 00:07:20,485 Speaker 3: So I know it's interesting what they're doing and we 157 00:07:20,485 --> 00:07:22,685 Speaker 3: should take cues from it, but it's just not rooted 158 00:07:22,725 --> 00:07:23,285 Speaker 3: in reality. 159 00:07:23,485 --> 00:07:25,765 Speaker 4: No, even that idea of cozying up to watch a 160 00:07:25,805 --> 00:07:27,125 Speaker 4: movie that Maranda talked about. 161 00:07:27,165 --> 00:07:28,765 Speaker 1: Look, before I had kids, I thought I'd be. 162 00:07:28,765 --> 00:07:32,205 Speaker 4: Doing that cozying up to watch Disney movies from my childhood. 163 00:07:32,325 --> 00:07:34,365 Speaker 4: That's not how it works. When the TV is on, 164 00:07:34,645 --> 00:07:39,045 Speaker 4: I am folding laundry exactly. Earlier this year, Adolescence was 165 00:07:39,245 --> 00:07:41,725 Speaker 4: the biggest show. I feel like you could not look 166 00:07:41,925 --> 00:07:44,325 Speaker 4: or scroll anywhere without seeing this. It was the biggest 167 00:07:44,325 --> 00:07:45,125 Speaker 4: show on Netflix. 168 00:07:45,125 --> 00:07:47,485 Speaker 2: In the world at the time before K Pop Demon 169 00:07:47,565 --> 00:07:50,325 Speaker 2: Hunters overtook it, But if you didn't watch it, it 170 00:07:50,365 --> 00:07:52,565 Speaker 2: was essentially about what happens to a family when their 171 00:07:52,605 --> 00:07:55,405 Speaker 2: thirteen year old son is arrested for murdering a school friend. 172 00:07:55,765 --> 00:08:00,325 Speaker 2: And it launched this global conversation around men and boys today. 173 00:08:00,645 --> 00:08:03,165 Speaker 2: And the creator of the show's now using his platform 174 00:08:03,245 --> 00:08:05,725 Speaker 2: to launch this program where he's asking men to write 175 00:08:05,805 --> 00:08:08,205 Speaker 2: letters to their sons and he'll turn it into a book. 176 00:08:08,765 --> 00:08:10,205 Speaker 1: This is such a lovely project. 177 00:08:10,805 --> 00:08:13,365 Speaker 2: Like, I think it's so great to see any focus 178 00:08:13,365 --> 00:08:15,125 Speaker 2: on raising emotionally intelligent boys. 179 00:08:15,125 --> 00:08:15,925 Speaker 1: Do you reckon Mons? 180 00:08:16,045 --> 00:08:19,805 Speaker 3: I love it to Stacy. I think we are trying 181 00:08:19,805 --> 00:08:21,845 Speaker 3: to raise a new kind of man. There's a lot 182 00:08:21,845 --> 00:08:24,205 Speaker 3: of focus on boyhood at the moment, and anything that 183 00:08:24,245 --> 00:08:28,165 Speaker 3: we can do to bring dads into the conversation and 184 00:08:28,285 --> 00:08:32,085 Speaker 3: ask dads to kind of reveal emotional intelligence and connect 185 00:08:32,165 --> 00:08:35,324 Speaker 3: with their boys is really great. And I know other 186 00:08:35,365 --> 00:08:37,605 Speaker 3: people have tried to do it before, but when you 187 00:08:37,684 --> 00:08:40,245 Speaker 3: have someone as big as Stephen Graham, who has this 188 00:08:40,365 --> 00:08:43,125 Speaker 3: huge platform, who did kind of start this global conversation 189 00:08:43,645 --> 00:08:46,005 Speaker 3: now turning that into action, that can only be a 190 00:08:46,005 --> 00:08:46,365 Speaker 3: good thing. 191 00:08:46,605 --> 00:08:49,245 Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I hate it. I absolutely hate it. Look, 192 00:08:49,285 --> 00:08:51,765 Speaker 4: I didn't watch this TV show. I never will. I, 193 00:08:51,765 --> 00:08:57,285 Speaker 4: in fact, anecdotally know a lot of parents of younger 194 00:08:57,365 --> 00:09:00,565 Speaker 4: children just could not stomach the idea of watching a 195 00:09:00,605 --> 00:09:05,925 Speaker 4: show like this that essentially presents boys as having this 196 00:09:06,125 --> 00:09:09,204 Speaker 4: monster inside them that has to be tanged. And that's 197 00:09:09,245 --> 00:09:13,085 Speaker 4: my issue with Steven Graham's hooleshtick. It's predicated on this 198 00:09:13,205 --> 00:09:17,885 Speaker 4: idea that boys today are in a unique crisis. He 199 00:09:17,965 --> 00:09:21,525 Speaker 4: says things along these lines. He says, there is arguably 200 00:09:21,565 --> 00:09:26,925 Speaker 4: an even bigger disconnect between fathers and sons than ever before. Sorry, 201 00:09:27,085 --> 00:09:29,445 Speaker 4: what where is the evidence for this? I think nineteen 202 00:09:29,485 --> 00:09:31,725 Speaker 4: fifties patriarchs who never spoke to their. 203 00:09:31,605 --> 00:09:33,125 Speaker 1: Family want a word. 204 00:09:33,285 --> 00:09:35,485 Speaker 4: I don't see any evidence for it, And I think 205 00:09:35,525 --> 00:09:40,405 Speaker 4: it's perpetuating this idea of boys as weird aliens that 206 00:09:40,445 --> 00:09:42,525 Speaker 4: we have to treat with kid gloves. Sure, write a 207 00:09:42,605 --> 00:09:44,445 Speaker 4: letter to your son, but how about writing a letter 208 00:09:44,485 --> 00:09:45,204 Speaker 4: to your daughter too. 209 00:09:45,365 --> 00:09:46,245 Speaker 1: I don't see. 210 00:09:46,045 --> 00:09:49,965 Speaker 4: Why we keep having to treat them in this almost 211 00:09:50,005 --> 00:09:50,885 Speaker 4: fearful way. 212 00:09:51,405 --> 00:09:52,605 Speaker 2: But don't you feel like there needs to be a 213 00:09:52,645 --> 00:09:55,085 Speaker 2: bit of a recalibration, Like I feel like at the 214 00:09:55,125 --> 00:09:58,045 Speaker 2: moment we are seeing that so many boys are feeling 215 00:09:58,085 --> 00:10:01,925 Speaker 2: angry and feeling disconnected and looking to these like Manisphere 216 00:10:02,005 --> 00:10:04,564 Speaker 2: figures that we do need to have these people who 217 00:10:04,565 --> 00:10:07,365 Speaker 2: do have the platform focusing more on them and kind 218 00:10:07,405 --> 00:10:09,405 Speaker 2: of bringing that balance back of what it means to 219 00:10:09,445 --> 00:10:10,125 Speaker 2: be a good man. 220 00:10:10,525 --> 00:10:13,885 Speaker 4: There's been a bit of a backclash to Adolescence. I 221 00:10:13,965 --> 00:10:16,045 Speaker 4: hear you on that, but I think that the idea 222 00:10:16,085 --> 00:10:18,645 Speaker 4: of being a better man, the flip side is you've 223 00:10:18,685 --> 00:10:21,084 Speaker 4: got to be a better man because inherently you are 224 00:10:21,125 --> 00:10:23,885 Speaker 4: a monster, you know, and you've got to stifle that 225 00:10:24,365 --> 00:10:27,365 Speaker 4: and stifle the toxic masculinity. And so a lot of 226 00:10:27,365 --> 00:10:30,405 Speaker 4: people are saying that Adolescence it was a hugely popular show, 227 00:10:30,445 --> 00:10:32,405 Speaker 4: but it came out, But a lot of the debate 228 00:10:32,485 --> 00:10:35,965 Speaker 4: now has shifted to was adolescence kind of an example 229 00:10:36,005 --> 00:10:39,485 Speaker 4: of a moral panic, Like we've always worried about teenage boys. 230 00:10:39,565 --> 00:10:41,925 Speaker 4: This is not new, and that's what I take exception to. 231 00:10:42,045 --> 00:10:45,805 Speaker 4: In the eighties, apparently, I've read that people were worried 232 00:10:45,805 --> 00:10:50,005 Speaker 4: about dungeons and dragons corrupting youth and Chucky from child's play, 233 00:10:50,445 --> 00:10:53,245 Speaker 4: and then in the nineties it was violent rap lyrics. 234 00:10:53,285 --> 00:10:54,324 Speaker 1: None of this is new. 235 00:10:54,645 --> 00:10:56,445 Speaker 3: I don't think it is a moral panic because we 236 00:10:56,485 --> 00:11:00,445 Speaker 3: are seeing the data on boys being influenced by the 237 00:11:00,485 --> 00:11:03,445 Speaker 3: Andrew Taits of the world and this toxic manisphere and 238 00:11:04,085 --> 00:11:07,885 Speaker 3: their parenting experts. Is an amazing parenting expert, Australian expert 239 00:11:07,965 --> 00:11:10,925 Speaker 3: called Steve Bitoff, who writes a lot about rae boys, 240 00:11:11,565 --> 00:11:14,765 Speaker 3: and he says that the really critical time for duds 241 00:11:14,885 --> 00:11:18,085 Speaker 3: is the age between six and fourteen, and this is 242 00:11:18,125 --> 00:11:20,925 Speaker 3: when boys are working out who they are and if 243 00:11:20,965 --> 00:11:23,525 Speaker 3: there's no one there to guide them, if fathers don't 244 00:11:23,605 --> 00:11:26,525 Speaker 3: fill that gap, they will go looking for scripts of 245 00:11:26,565 --> 00:11:30,405 Speaker 3: masculinity elsewhere and they will find it online. And he 246 00:11:30,485 --> 00:11:34,085 Speaker 3: calls it the vacuum effect. When good men go quiet, 247 00:11:34,725 --> 00:11:37,845 Speaker 3: bad ones get loud. And I think boys are the 248 00:11:37,925 --> 00:11:42,845 Speaker 3: new misunderstood gender. Back to your point about how nineteen 249 00:11:42,885 --> 00:11:45,845 Speaker 3: fifties dads had a much bigger disconnect with their sons, 250 00:11:45,845 --> 00:11:48,285 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if that's completely the case, because I 251 00:11:48,365 --> 00:11:51,925 Speaker 3: think the modern dad. We've come a long way with 252 00:11:52,045 --> 00:11:54,085 Speaker 3: men being more emotionally intelligent, and we see it in 253 00:11:54,085 --> 00:11:56,205 Speaker 3: pop culture. We see it like Blue is Dad Bandit. 254 00:11:56,765 --> 00:11:59,845 Speaker 3: We see a lot more representations of sensitive emotional men. 255 00:12:00,565 --> 00:12:04,485 Speaker 3: But We've told men for years to open up, but 256 00:12:04,605 --> 00:12:06,965 Speaker 3: we've never given them a format that feels kind of 257 00:12:07,085 --> 00:12:09,045 Speaker 3: like safe to do that. And I think a letter 258 00:12:09,765 --> 00:12:12,205 Speaker 3: is a really good way to do it because it's 259 00:12:12,325 --> 00:12:16,564 Speaker 3: feelings in a space that's non confrontational. So no dad 260 00:12:16,645 --> 00:12:18,365 Speaker 3: is going to sit down and look at their son 261 00:12:18,805 --> 00:12:21,165 Speaker 3: in the face and have a deep and meaningful conversation. 262 00:12:21,605 --> 00:12:23,445 Speaker 3: And a lot of the parenting experts say that is 263 00:12:23,485 --> 00:12:25,765 Speaker 3: not the time to talk to boys. That the best 264 00:12:25,805 --> 00:12:28,885 Speaker 3: time to communicate with them is side by side, when 265 00:12:28,885 --> 00:12:31,085 Speaker 3: you're working on a project together, when you're driving in 266 00:12:31,125 --> 00:12:33,685 Speaker 3: the car, And I think a letter does the same thing. 267 00:12:34,085 --> 00:12:36,765 Speaker 3: Putting your feelings down on paper and slipping it under 268 00:12:36,765 --> 00:12:40,725 Speaker 3: the door. It's very non confrontational way to communicate with 269 00:12:40,765 --> 00:12:43,925 Speaker 3: your son. There was this study in twenty twenty three 270 00:12:44,045 --> 00:12:46,845 Speaker 3: that the University of Queensland did and it found that 271 00:12:47,005 --> 00:12:50,565 Speaker 3: young men learn how to be a man from their dads. 272 00:12:50,765 --> 00:12:54,525 Speaker 3: So dads pass on their masculinity beliefs to their sons. 273 00:12:54,525 --> 00:12:56,965 Speaker 3: And it might sound really obvious, but here's why it's important. 274 00:12:57,245 --> 00:12:59,485 Speaker 3: Because there are a lot of people out there wanting 275 00:12:59,525 --> 00:13:03,405 Speaker 3: to build policies and interventions and programs aimed at stopping 276 00:13:03,405 --> 00:13:08,205 Speaker 3: this toxic manisphere. It's more likely to work if we 277 00:13:08,365 --> 00:13:11,605 Speaker 3: target the dads. It's just more more likely to work 278 00:13:12,085 --> 00:13:14,765 Speaker 3: to promote like that healthy vision of masculinity if it's 279 00:13:14,805 --> 00:13:18,405 Speaker 3: coming from their dad, not from school, not from other people, 280 00:13:18,485 --> 00:13:21,605 Speaker 3: but dads. So that's why I think the letter project 281 00:13:21,645 --> 00:13:24,684 Speaker 3: is amazing. And I also want to say Maggie Dent 282 00:13:24,765 --> 00:13:27,605 Speaker 3: wrote about this in twenty twenty four. She called it 283 00:13:27,885 --> 00:13:30,564 Speaker 3: the power of the parent letter. She's got this book 284 00:13:30,605 --> 00:13:32,645 Speaker 3: helped me help my team. She's even got templates in 285 00:13:32,685 --> 00:13:35,005 Speaker 3: the back of the book which is like, copy my letter. 286 00:13:35,045 --> 00:13:36,564 Speaker 3: Here's how to do it if you're not sure where 287 00:13:36,605 --> 00:13:39,725 Speaker 3: to start. And she says that like, having a well 288 00:13:39,805 --> 00:13:43,725 Speaker 3: thought out letter can build this bridge, and it's deceptively powerful. 289 00:13:43,885 --> 00:13:45,165 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm kind of sold on that. 290 00:13:45,205 --> 00:13:47,925 Speaker 4: Maggie Dent also taught me something about talking to boys, 291 00:13:48,405 --> 00:13:52,885 Speaker 4: where she said that they value predictability a certain script 292 00:13:53,045 --> 00:13:55,325 Speaker 4: every day, and so she gave us a suggestion that 293 00:13:55,405 --> 00:13:58,605 Speaker 4: a boy will find it especially powerful if at bedtime 294 00:13:59,125 --> 00:14:01,885 Speaker 4: you tell him something like I love you more than 295 00:14:01,925 --> 00:14:03,925 Speaker 4: all of the grains of sand on all the beaches, 296 00:14:04,005 --> 00:14:07,805 Speaker 4: because he can visualize that. It's really quite beautiful. I 297 00:14:07,805 --> 00:14:10,365 Speaker 4: started this conversation a cnec but I'm kind of being 298 00:14:10,445 --> 00:14:13,245 Speaker 4: one over to this idea mons that there is some 299 00:14:13,325 --> 00:14:16,525 Speaker 4: kind of crisis in boyhood and that fathers have to 300 00:14:16,525 --> 00:14:18,085 Speaker 4: play a really important role in that. 301 00:14:18,205 --> 00:14:20,445 Speaker 2: And what I liked in this project Stephen Graham said 302 00:14:20,445 --> 00:14:22,965 Speaker 2: that he's purposely looking for all sorts of fathers, So 303 00:14:23,005 --> 00:14:26,045 Speaker 2: he wants new fathers, fathers who are much older and 304 00:14:26,045 --> 00:14:28,765 Speaker 2: their children are later in life, absent fathers who haven't 305 00:14:28,805 --> 00:14:31,405 Speaker 2: been there, and what they're feeling about that relationship. So 306 00:14:31,445 --> 00:14:33,205 Speaker 2: I think it's quite good in that it would feel 307 00:14:33,245 --> 00:14:35,845 Speaker 2: accessible to all types of dads. And yeah, maybe it's 308 00:14:35,885 --> 00:14:37,765 Speaker 2: just a matter of this needs to be targeted at 309 00:14:37,765 --> 00:14:38,765 Speaker 2: the father's not the son. 310 00:14:38,925 --> 00:14:41,205 Speaker 1: Stephen, you in this realm. 311 00:14:42,005 --> 00:14:46,405 Speaker 4: It's the photo which has divided Australia. Picnic tables at 312 00:14:46,445 --> 00:14:50,805 Speaker 4: a local park, cheerful, pink plastic tablecloths, brightly colored bunting 313 00:14:50,845 --> 00:14:52,245 Speaker 4: which reads happy Birthday? 314 00:14:52,245 --> 00:14:55,485 Speaker 1: What could be wrong with this? Sounds lovely? There's something 315 00:14:55,565 --> 00:14:56,205 Speaker 1: wrong with it. 316 00:14:56,365 --> 00:14:59,845 Speaker 4: There are no people in the photo and that's what's 317 00:14:59,845 --> 00:15:03,085 Speaker 4: set off a firestorm because the person who reserved these 318 00:15:03,125 --> 00:15:05,685 Speaker 4: tables for a kid's birthday party was. 319 00:15:05,765 --> 00:15:07,325 Speaker 1: Not in the park. 320 00:15:08,445 --> 00:15:11,605 Speaker 4: Now, this photo was posted to the Facebook Southwest Sydney 321 00:15:11,685 --> 00:15:15,805 Speaker 4: Kids Parks and Places earlier this month, and as Yahoo News, 322 00:15:15,885 --> 00:15:19,285 Speaker 4: which has gone really impressively deep on this photo reports 323 00:15:19,645 --> 00:15:24,885 Speaker 4: it quote left hundreds of viewers stunned, hundreds treads. Now 324 00:15:24,965 --> 00:15:26,685 Speaker 4: a few facts before I'm going to turn to the 325 00:15:26,765 --> 00:15:29,405 Speaker 4: jury for a verdict on whether this behavior is acceptable 326 00:15:29,485 --> 00:15:31,725 Speaker 4: or profoundly an Australian. Here are the facts you need 327 00:15:31,765 --> 00:15:34,165 Speaker 4: to know. The setup was there since at least nine 328 00:15:34,285 --> 00:15:37,645 Speaker 4: thirty am on a Saturday, when eyewitnesses first observed it. 329 00:15:38,285 --> 00:15:40,565 Speaker 4: I need to tell you that the council has confirmed 330 00:15:40,605 --> 00:15:43,525 Speaker 4: you cannot reserve tables at this park, so before you ask. 331 00:15:43,485 --> 00:15:44,045 Speaker 1: Not an option. 332 00:15:44,565 --> 00:15:48,685 Speaker 4: And also the offending family arrived at the park for 333 00:15:48,845 --> 00:15:53,165 Speaker 4: the party at twelve thirty pm. Now the family was 334 00:15:53,165 --> 00:15:56,085 Speaker 4: apparently very understanding. They moved their party because other people 335 00:15:56,085 --> 00:15:59,685 Speaker 4: had already taken the tables. Everything was fine, But the 336 00:15:59,765 --> 00:16:02,405 Speaker 4: question remains, two bags or not two bags? 337 00:16:02,445 --> 00:16:05,085 Speaker 1: Stacy, what's your verdict? I think it's okay. 338 00:16:05,725 --> 00:16:09,165 Speaker 2: I just think don't hate the player, hate the game, Like, 339 00:16:09,525 --> 00:16:12,645 Speaker 2: if you want to get there early, then you've put 340 00:16:12,685 --> 00:16:15,325 Speaker 2: in the work. As someone who sent their father down 341 00:16:15,565 --> 00:16:19,045 Speaker 2: to bags the table for my daughter's birthday party at. 342 00:16:19,085 --> 00:16:20,485 Speaker 1: Six thirty in the morning. 343 00:16:20,485 --> 00:16:23,685 Speaker 2: Stephen Graham would approve exactly for a ten thirty party. 344 00:16:23,765 --> 00:16:27,205 Speaker 2: My dad sat there in the chair with the setup, 345 00:16:27,685 --> 00:16:29,965 Speaker 2: holding fort holding his bladder. 346 00:16:30,005 --> 00:16:34,285 Speaker 4: I imagine too, that's different. Respectfully, he was sitting there. 347 00:16:34,405 --> 00:16:36,965 Speaker 4: The issue is there were no people there monds. 348 00:16:37,285 --> 00:16:40,485 Speaker 3: Yes, I agree. I think the prevailing theory is fine 349 00:16:40,525 --> 00:16:44,965 Speaker 3: to bags, but someone must physically be there on table watch. Yes, 350 00:16:45,085 --> 00:16:49,205 Speaker 3: someone must remain visible. This also happened last summer when 351 00:16:49,205 --> 00:16:53,405 Speaker 3: there was a big kerfuffle about people reserving beach spots 352 00:16:53,485 --> 00:16:56,605 Speaker 3: by erecting the cool kabana in morning and then leaving 353 00:16:56,725 --> 00:16:59,405 Speaker 3: and being able to come back and forth. The unofficial 354 00:16:59,445 --> 00:17:03,085 Speaker 3: Australian rule is one person must stay otherwise it's a 355 00:17:03,125 --> 00:17:06,165 Speaker 3: free for all. It's a public space, public space, public rules. 356 00:17:06,365 --> 00:17:08,605 Speaker 3: We need to protect that kind of party. I love 357 00:17:08,605 --> 00:17:11,884 Speaker 3: a humble park party. They are just the best mons. 358 00:17:11,965 --> 00:17:14,725 Speaker 4: I couldn't agree more love a park party. There's something 359 00:17:14,845 --> 00:17:18,844 Speaker 4: so simultaneously nostalgic and very free about a park party. 360 00:17:18,925 --> 00:17:22,765 Speaker 4: And also you don't have people jamming lollies and cake 361 00:17:22,845 --> 00:17:26,205 Speaker 4: into your carpets, which is nice too. Yes, but I 362 00:17:26,325 --> 00:17:29,764 Speaker 4: had a very traumatic experience with the park party. I 363 00:17:29,805 --> 00:17:32,764 Speaker 4: was living in Washington, DC and I had a third 364 00:17:32,805 --> 00:17:37,004 Speaker 4: birthday party, which was Octonauts Seemed. I had ordered a 365 00:17:37,045 --> 00:17:41,485 Speaker 4: lot of oct Nauts Seemed party merch and swag. Got 366 00:17:41,525 --> 00:17:42,925 Speaker 4: to the park early to Saturday. 367 00:17:43,205 --> 00:17:45,165 Speaker 3: Captain Barnacles like in the O. 368 00:17:47,045 --> 00:17:48,285 Speaker 4: Captain Barnacles. 369 00:17:48,325 --> 00:17:51,085 Speaker 3: I think Captain Barnacles is too type A for you. 370 00:17:51,365 --> 00:17:53,325 Speaker 3: I feel like you might be the pirate with the 371 00:17:53,365 --> 00:17:55,525 Speaker 3: patch classy mons. 372 00:17:55,685 --> 00:17:59,365 Speaker 4: That is so hurtful, like a pirate. I would never 373 00:17:59,405 --> 00:18:00,005 Speaker 4: break the lawn. 374 00:18:00,484 --> 00:18:04,405 Speaker 3: Got a time guy, He's a good he's vibes. Sorry, 375 00:18:04,445 --> 00:18:05,965 Speaker 3: continue getting distracted. 376 00:18:06,045 --> 00:18:08,845 Speaker 4: So I set up the party and I was there. 377 00:18:09,005 --> 00:18:12,004 Speaker 4: I was there the whole time, and the parties you 378 00:18:12,085 --> 00:18:16,004 Speaker 4: just start at eleven am. Ten forty five. Woman rocks 379 00:18:16,085 --> 00:18:19,324 Speaker 4: up at the park. Oh no, and says I reserve 380 00:18:19,405 --> 00:18:24,125 Speaker 4: this No, And my whole body went cold. 381 00:18:24,605 --> 00:18:26,925 Speaker 1: Because what could I do? She was absolutely right. 382 00:18:26,965 --> 00:18:29,085 Speaker 4: I did not realize that you had to reserve, and 383 00:18:29,125 --> 00:18:31,484 Speaker 4: there was, in fact an online booking system in place. 384 00:18:31,765 --> 00:18:34,525 Speaker 4: I had to take down all the option Naught's merch 385 00:18:35,125 --> 00:18:39,365 Speaker 4: and essentially just create a makeshift picnic party, which was 386 00:18:39,405 --> 00:18:42,044 Speaker 4: not my vision. So I guess that's kind of an 387 00:18:42,125 --> 00:18:44,405 Speaker 4: urban horror story, and I guess it shows you should 388 00:18:44,405 --> 00:18:45,885 Speaker 4: always check out whether you can reserve. 389 00:18:46,165 --> 00:18:48,965 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why well done, well done, because there isn't 390 00:18:49,085 --> 00:18:51,405 Speaker 3: there is a lot riding on the picnic park table. 391 00:18:51,765 --> 00:18:53,925 Speaker 3: You cannot leave it to chance, like you need to 392 00:18:53,925 --> 00:18:55,205 Speaker 3: try and control those controllables. 393 00:18:55,245 --> 00:18:57,284 Speaker 2: And were you just like living in the shadow of 394 00:18:57,325 --> 00:18:59,325 Speaker 2: that table and that change. 395 00:18:59,005 --> 00:19:02,365 Speaker 4: For you today for a party right now that is 396 00:19:02,405 --> 00:19:05,484 Speaker 4: not perfectly put living in the shadow. That will be 397 00:19:05,525 --> 00:19:07,885 Speaker 4: the name of my parenting memoir that I write about 398 00:19:07,885 --> 00:19:10,685 Speaker 4: that incident and how it caused me to re evaluate whether, 399 00:19:10,765 --> 00:19:12,365 Speaker 4: in fact I was a terrible parent. 400 00:19:12,405 --> 00:19:14,244 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for your loss of the picnic. 401 00:19:14,405 --> 00:19:16,525 Speaker 3: I actually think it's kind of cool that you just pivoted, 402 00:19:16,845 --> 00:19:18,524 Speaker 3: and we're just like, what else could I do? 403 00:19:18,725 --> 00:19:19,405 Speaker 1: Have a nice. 404 00:19:21,565 --> 00:19:24,405 Speaker 3: What was her party? Did she keep side eyeing hers? Look? 405 00:19:24,484 --> 00:19:27,485 Speaker 4: Her party looked fine. It didn't have an octionnot sceme. 406 00:19:27,525 --> 00:19:30,165 Speaker 4: It did not appear to have a discernible theme, which 407 00:19:30,245 --> 00:19:32,645 Speaker 4: is fine. You don't have to have a theme. Look 408 00:19:32,725 --> 00:19:34,205 Speaker 4: lovely that she was too. 409 00:19:34,045 --> 00:19:36,365 Speaker 2: Busy reserving the actual davel. 410 00:19:36,484 --> 00:19:38,725 Speaker 4: The thing was, it was at a splash pad, and 411 00:19:39,085 --> 00:19:41,685 Speaker 4: I do love a splash pad for kids, for little 412 00:19:41,725 --> 00:19:43,645 Speaker 4: kids because they can run back and forth. Look, it 413 00:19:43,685 --> 00:19:46,445 Speaker 4: turned out great. The kids didn't care, but I live 414 00:19:46,525 --> 00:19:47,004 Speaker 4: with the shame. 415 00:19:47,445 --> 00:19:50,725 Speaker 3: You know what, Amelia, you got that party planner, the 416 00:19:50,805 --> 00:19:53,005 Speaker 3: amazing pickle, whatever his name was, what was his name, 417 00:19:53,045 --> 00:19:56,925 Speaker 3: the gecko, the girt zucchini, the great Zuchino zucchini. You 418 00:19:57,005 --> 00:20:00,765 Speaker 3: have the great Zucchini law. You managed to book America's 419 00:20:00,805 --> 00:20:03,205 Speaker 3: most famous party plan. It doesn't matter what you do 420 00:20:03,245 --> 00:20:04,764 Speaker 3: from here, it's never going to live up to that. 421 00:20:04,885 --> 00:20:07,845 Speaker 3: So I think it should just be scrappy little park 422 00:20:07,845 --> 00:20:08,564 Speaker 3: parties from here on. 423 00:20:08,605 --> 00:20:10,244 Speaker 1: In forew I like that a lot. 424 00:20:10,405 --> 00:20:13,405 Speaker 4: And I also feel like park parties reach a kind 425 00:20:13,445 --> 00:20:16,044 Speaker 4: of age limit as well, and now I feel like 426 00:20:16,085 --> 00:20:19,645 Speaker 4: I'm actually hitting that. I think it's around seven. So 427 00:20:19,845 --> 00:20:22,645 Speaker 4: to everyone who's still got kids under seven who can 428 00:20:22,685 --> 00:20:24,044 Speaker 4: have park parties, lean in. 429 00:20:24,205 --> 00:20:24,925 Speaker 1: They're the best. 430 00:20:25,645 --> 00:20:27,445 Speaker 3: Before we go into this next chat, if you have 431 00:20:27,525 --> 00:20:30,125 Speaker 3: small children who can hear this episode, if they are 432 00:20:30,125 --> 00:20:32,605 Speaker 3: in earshot, you may want to skip forward by just 433 00:20:32,725 --> 00:20:36,885 Speaker 3: a few minutes. I'm going to be referencing North Pole 434 00:20:37,245 --> 00:20:41,004 Speaker 3: business that only adults can know. Thank you. Now you 435 00:20:41,045 --> 00:20:43,484 Speaker 3: two come into my secret room. Shut the door. I 436 00:20:43,565 --> 00:20:46,045 Speaker 3: need you to help me work through a problem. It's 437 00:20:46,165 --> 00:20:49,925 Speaker 3: Elf a clock or what I mean by that. Yeah, 438 00:20:49,965 --> 00:20:52,925 Speaker 3: it is because it's we're almost tipping into November, and 439 00:20:52,925 --> 00:20:54,804 Speaker 3: then by the time November gets here, it may as 440 00:20:54,805 --> 00:20:57,845 Speaker 3: well be December. It's the time of year that I remember. 441 00:20:58,405 --> 00:21:02,565 Speaker 3: I feel like the last mom alive without an ELF 442 00:21:03,045 --> 00:21:05,605 Speaker 3: on the shelf. It taunts me every year. And you know, 443 00:21:05,725 --> 00:21:08,885 Speaker 3: last week we talked about how Halloween just has this 444 00:21:09,125 --> 00:21:12,524 Speaker 3: crazy momentum. I feel the same way about elves on 445 00:21:12,605 --> 00:21:15,804 Speaker 3: the shelves. They are everywhere. They're in schools, they're on 446 00:21:15,965 --> 00:21:19,885 Speaker 3: supermarket shelves, they're in cafes, like they're multiplying like knits 447 00:21:19,925 --> 00:21:22,245 Speaker 3: on a year three classroom head. Like it's just if 448 00:21:22,285 --> 00:21:26,645 Speaker 3: they are everywhere. I agonize over this every year. The 449 00:21:26,685 --> 00:21:29,965 Speaker 3: time comes and every fiber of my body is trying 450 00:21:30,005 --> 00:21:35,965 Speaker 3: to resist the ELF. But the pressure, the tradition, the beauty, 451 00:21:36,005 --> 00:21:38,405 Speaker 3: the magic, the joy is also there too, And I 452 00:21:38,445 --> 00:21:41,564 Speaker 3: feel completely split down the middle about it. And I 453 00:21:41,645 --> 00:21:45,244 Speaker 3: want to ask you to as my confidants to elf 454 00:21:45,484 --> 00:21:46,284 Speaker 3: or not to Elf. 455 00:21:46,845 --> 00:21:49,605 Speaker 2: There is a lot of psychology behind this. I went 456 00:21:49,645 --> 00:21:52,725 Speaker 2: really deep on it, and researchers say, enacting a family 457 00:21:52,805 --> 00:21:55,764 Speaker 2: ritual is more important than the specific form that that 458 00:21:55,885 --> 00:21:58,445 Speaker 2: ritual takes, So it doesn't really matter what it is. 459 00:21:58,645 --> 00:22:01,244 Speaker 2: But if you're doing something that your children are expecting, 460 00:22:01,645 --> 00:22:05,325 Speaker 2: that's a regular thing in your family. Repeated rituals are 461 00:22:05,365 --> 00:22:08,725 Speaker 2: proven to foster closeness and belonging and like that identity 462 00:22:08,805 --> 00:22:09,925 Speaker 2: of your family. 463 00:22:09,645 --> 00:22:13,845 Speaker 4: And that's what's about it. Like, yes, it will foster community. 464 00:22:13,965 --> 00:22:15,564 Speaker 4: It is something you have to do long term. But 465 00:22:15,645 --> 00:22:17,125 Speaker 4: I want to talk about the dark side of the 466 00:22:17,205 --> 00:22:20,085 Speaker 4: tradition too, because this goes to your question of whether 467 00:22:20,165 --> 00:22:21,685 Speaker 4: or not you should do off on the shelf. Monds 468 00:22:22,205 --> 00:22:24,605 Speaker 4: And you sent me a link to a newsletter called 469 00:22:24,645 --> 00:22:27,165 Speaker 4: I Kid you not listeners type a mom. 470 00:22:27,325 --> 00:22:28,285 Speaker 1: Now, this is not a. 471 00:22:28,245 --> 00:22:32,645 Speaker 4: Newsletter I subscribe to, but it's every time the author 472 00:22:32,685 --> 00:22:35,244 Speaker 4: of that newsletter, Amanda Brown. She gave me a phrase 473 00:22:35,285 --> 00:22:38,365 Speaker 4: i'd honestly never given myself permission to think about before. 474 00:22:38,725 --> 00:22:41,925 Speaker 4: She talks about traditions I hate and traditions I regret 475 00:22:41,965 --> 00:22:44,605 Speaker 4: starting because we always think a tradition is a good 476 00:22:44,685 --> 00:22:47,405 Speaker 4: thing for all the reasons you said, Stacy, But there's 477 00:22:47,445 --> 00:22:50,125 Speaker 4: a lot of sort of pernicious elements of starting a 478 00:22:50,165 --> 00:22:52,885 Speaker 4: tradition within a family, and Amanda has three lessons she's 479 00:22:52,965 --> 00:22:56,205 Speaker 4: learned about traditions. One, once you start a tradition, it's 480 00:22:56,285 --> 00:22:56,845 Speaker 4: very hard. 481 00:22:56,645 --> 00:22:57,165 Speaker 1: To stop it. 482 00:22:57,405 --> 00:23:00,965 Speaker 4: Two, kids do not need traditions to be elaborate, which 483 00:23:00,965 --> 00:23:03,485 Speaker 4: is great because my favorite tradition is sleeping in. 484 00:23:03,445 --> 00:23:04,365 Speaker 1: On a Saturday morning. 485 00:23:05,125 --> 00:23:09,085 Speaker 4: And three these traditions will continue until your youngest child 486 00:23:09,085 --> 00:23:12,605 Speaker 4: grows out of them, so by and beware. What does 487 00:23:12,605 --> 00:23:15,405 Speaker 4: that make you think? In terms of ELF on the shelf, 488 00:23:15,484 --> 00:23:18,685 Speaker 4: Monds like that idea of committing to it for a 489 00:23:18,805 --> 00:23:19,725 Speaker 4: long time. 490 00:23:20,285 --> 00:23:24,125 Speaker 3: I'm okay with that. I actually feel really delighted about this. 491 00:23:24,445 --> 00:23:27,044 Speaker 3: I'm not anti ELF. I think it's gorgeous and I 492 00:23:27,085 --> 00:23:29,244 Speaker 3: think that kids are little for such a short time 493 00:23:29,365 --> 00:23:32,004 Speaker 3: that doing anything that brings joy and magic into the 494 00:23:32,005 --> 00:23:35,564 Speaker 3: house is a good thing, right. And I also identify 495 00:23:35,685 --> 00:23:38,285 Speaker 3: as a Christmas mom, like I'm in Christmas Mom's Australia 496 00:23:38,325 --> 00:23:40,524 Speaker 3: Facebook group every five seconds, like I love we know. 497 00:23:41,965 --> 00:23:44,685 Speaker 3: The thing that has stopped me from doing it are 498 00:23:44,725 --> 00:23:48,845 Speaker 3: two things. The first is it feels deceptive, like once 499 00:23:48,965 --> 00:23:53,165 Speaker 3: they find out is it I've been lied to this 500 00:23:53,205 --> 00:23:55,965 Speaker 3: whole time. I also don't love the idea that kids 501 00:23:56,005 --> 00:23:57,965 Speaker 3: have to be good because someone's watching them. I want 502 00:23:57,965 --> 00:24:01,484 Speaker 3: my kids to be like intrinsically good, not extrinsically motivated. 503 00:24:02,045 --> 00:24:05,525 Speaker 3: And thirdly, I think the mental load was too much 504 00:24:05,565 --> 00:24:07,645 Speaker 3: for me in the past. I had a huge job, 505 00:24:07,725 --> 00:24:09,085 Speaker 3: we had a lot going on at home, and I 506 00:24:09,205 --> 00:24:11,524 Speaker 3: just felt like one more thing in December was probably 507 00:24:11,525 --> 00:24:13,445 Speaker 3: going to break me. But I couple that with the 508 00:24:13,484 --> 00:24:15,685 Speaker 3: idea that it does bring that sort of sense of 509 00:24:15,725 --> 00:24:18,045 Speaker 3: magic and it is something that they're going to wake 510 00:24:18,085 --> 00:24:21,925 Speaker 3: up in the morning and feel excited about. But it 511 00:24:22,005 --> 00:24:23,604 Speaker 3: is a lot of mental low. But that's what we 512 00:24:23,685 --> 00:24:27,005 Speaker 3: do as parents, right We manufactured these moments to make 513 00:24:27,005 --> 00:24:27,764 Speaker 3: our kids happy. 514 00:24:27,925 --> 00:24:30,805 Speaker 2: Well, you could just try my tactic mons. Last year, 515 00:24:30,845 --> 00:24:34,525 Speaker 2: I caved and decided that I needed to be this mum. 516 00:24:34,765 --> 00:24:37,125 Speaker 2: The first night, I put it on the toilet because 517 00:24:37,125 --> 00:24:39,044 Speaker 2: I would thought that would be funny in the morning. 518 00:24:39,285 --> 00:24:41,125 Speaker 2: But my daughter got up in the middle of the night, 519 00:24:41,445 --> 00:24:44,805 Speaker 2: saw a strange figure sitting on the toilet. Terrified, screamed, 520 00:24:45,125 --> 00:24:47,445 Speaker 2: the elf will never be back again in our household, 521 00:24:47,525 --> 00:24:50,524 Speaker 2: which I'm grateful for. What story did you give us 522 00:24:50,525 --> 00:24:52,845 Speaker 2: to why the elf went away? I just said you 523 00:24:52,885 --> 00:24:55,445 Speaker 2: didn't like her, so that's fine. We'll just not we 524 00:24:55,525 --> 00:24:56,605 Speaker 2: won't do that anymore. 525 00:24:56,725 --> 00:25:01,245 Speaker 1: The health services are no longer repor I fired the. 526 00:25:01,205 --> 00:25:04,885 Speaker 3: Elf, yes, Stacy, I mean the toilet is a weird choice. 527 00:25:04,885 --> 00:25:08,405 Speaker 3: For the first why the toilet? That is where the 528 00:25:08,525 --> 00:25:10,844 Speaker 3: door should be closed? It's your private business, and what 529 00:25:11,125 --> 00:25:12,885 Speaker 3: was going through your mind when you chose toilet? 530 00:25:13,045 --> 00:25:14,405 Speaker 1: I panicked. I panicked. 531 00:25:14,645 --> 00:25:16,725 Speaker 2: I wanted to commit to this, but didn't really have 532 00:25:16,765 --> 00:25:18,524 Speaker 2: the time to commit to this. So that's where I 533 00:25:18,565 --> 00:25:21,524 Speaker 2: put it. Failed miserably. So that's my sign that that 534 00:25:21,645 --> 00:25:23,765 Speaker 2: tradition is not for our family. 535 00:25:24,045 --> 00:25:26,604 Speaker 4: I feel like this question of to elf or not 536 00:25:26,685 --> 00:25:29,285 Speaker 4: to elf is tied up with the idea that we 537 00:25:29,365 --> 00:25:32,325 Speaker 4: feel like we don't have enough traditions anymore, and I 538 00:25:32,325 --> 00:25:34,165 Speaker 4: think there are a couple of reasons for that. The 539 00:25:34,205 --> 00:25:37,764 Speaker 4: first is that so many seasonal traditions are connected to 540 00:25:37,805 --> 00:25:41,645 Speaker 4: the Northern Hemisphere calendar. So for instance, an Easter egg 541 00:25:41,685 --> 00:25:44,365 Speaker 4: count or an Easter egg roll. The whole idea of 542 00:25:44,365 --> 00:25:46,244 Speaker 4: that is that it's meant to be in springtime and 543 00:25:46,285 --> 00:25:49,405 Speaker 4: that's why they're all these eggs to find. Or Halloween, 544 00:25:49,484 --> 00:25:51,925 Speaker 4: it's meant to be when the days are getting darker 545 00:25:51,965 --> 00:25:55,244 Speaker 4: and shorter, and there's this sense of menace and the 546 00:25:55,245 --> 00:25:56,645 Speaker 4: ominousness of the cold. 547 00:25:57,285 --> 00:25:58,244 Speaker 1: So that's the first reason. 548 00:25:58,365 --> 00:26:00,365 Speaker 4: Second reason, I think a lot of traditions are obviously 549 00:26:00,445 --> 00:26:03,045 Speaker 4: quite religious in nature, and so we're looking for secular 550 00:26:03,085 --> 00:26:06,845 Speaker 4: traditions to start, and I think that that's probably why 551 00:26:06,885 --> 00:26:08,965 Speaker 4: we search for things like elf on the shelf. But 552 00:26:09,085 --> 00:26:11,605 Speaker 4: I do think that can admitting to them is huge. 553 00:26:11,685 --> 00:26:14,045 Speaker 4: I see this even with the tooth fairy. Now, I 554 00:26:14,085 --> 00:26:17,365 Speaker 4: felt obligated to employ the tooth fairy in case there 555 00:26:17,365 --> 00:26:19,605 Speaker 4: are little kids who have come back. The tooth fairy 556 00:26:19,645 --> 00:26:22,044 Speaker 4: does work in our home, but the tooth ory is 557 00:26:22,085 --> 00:26:25,044 Speaker 4: not reliable. Sometimes she tells me that she doesn't have 558 00:26:25,085 --> 00:26:28,605 Speaker 4: any cash. Sometimes she asks me change for a fifty, 559 00:26:28,685 --> 00:26:30,285 Speaker 4: and I don't have change for a fifty, And I 560 00:26:30,365 --> 00:26:32,685 Speaker 4: think that should be her job as tooth fairy to 561 00:26:32,845 --> 00:26:36,405 Speaker 4: keep gold coins on hand. And I'm frankly not pleased 562 00:26:36,405 --> 00:26:38,365 Speaker 4: with the job she's been doing. But am I going 563 00:26:38,405 --> 00:26:39,564 Speaker 4: to fire the tooth fairy? 564 00:26:39,605 --> 00:26:42,845 Speaker 2: It raises all these questions, but I think these ones 565 00:26:43,045 --> 00:26:45,925 Speaker 2: feel like a big commitment, and I think the best 566 00:26:46,085 --> 00:26:48,044 Speaker 2: family traditions, like I don't think you need to be 567 00:26:48,045 --> 00:26:50,405 Speaker 2: worrying about the elf mons because I think the best 568 00:26:50,405 --> 00:26:52,764 Speaker 2: family traditions are the ones that are quite specific to 569 00:26:52,845 --> 00:26:55,845 Speaker 2: your family. Like in our family, we do Tree Day. 570 00:26:55,925 --> 00:26:58,165 Speaker 2: So we've done tree Day I'm thirty six now for 571 00:26:58,205 --> 00:27:00,885 Speaker 2: thirty six years with my parents, where we go and 572 00:27:01,205 --> 00:27:03,804 Speaker 2: get the tree from the Christmas tree. Fine, and my 573 00:27:03,925 --> 00:27:06,325 Speaker 2: brother now lives into state with his wife and they 574 00:27:06,365 --> 00:27:09,284 Speaker 2: fly back from Melbourne to come and cut down the 575 00:27:09,325 --> 00:27:12,244 Speaker 2: tree for our Fairly they're not even there. But that 576 00:27:12,365 --> 00:27:14,725 Speaker 2: is something that even in my wider friend group, people 577 00:27:14,765 --> 00:27:16,925 Speaker 2: talk about, oh yeah, you've got Tree Day this week, 578 00:27:17,165 --> 00:27:20,004 Speaker 2: like it's something that is unique to our family. And 579 00:27:20,045 --> 00:27:22,685 Speaker 2: I think those are the ones that should bring a 580 00:27:22,685 --> 00:27:25,205 Speaker 2: bit more joy to you as well. Like if it's 581 00:27:25,245 --> 00:27:27,324 Speaker 2: feeling like a chore, it probably shouldn't be a tradition. 582 00:27:27,445 --> 00:27:29,405 Speaker 1: Can I ask what day is Tree Day? 583 00:27:29,445 --> 00:27:32,405 Speaker 2: For Tree Day is just the first week of December generally, 584 00:27:32,525 --> 00:27:34,685 Speaker 2: so we always do that. And I kind of went 585 00:27:34,725 --> 00:27:39,125 Speaker 2: in search of other more achievable traditions around this time. 586 00:27:39,205 --> 00:27:39,765 Speaker 1: You put the. 587 00:27:39,765 --> 00:27:42,725 Speaker 4: Elf in the bathroom, which is perfect and creepy. 588 00:27:43,205 --> 00:27:46,804 Speaker 2: I know, look, I'm not great at traditions across the board. 589 00:27:47,165 --> 00:27:49,485 Speaker 2: I found this brilliant when I was looking at other 590 00:27:49,725 --> 00:27:52,445 Speaker 2: traditions that are like family identity. And I found this 591 00:27:52,565 --> 00:27:55,485 Speaker 2: brilliant one by this woman named Kylie, and she said 592 00:27:55,484 --> 00:27:58,365 Speaker 2: that they do cookie Hookie Day in their family. So 593 00:27:58,565 --> 00:28:00,565 Speaker 2: one day a year in December, they all take the 594 00:28:00,645 --> 00:28:03,244 Speaker 2: day off. The children's skip school, the parents take the 595 00:28:03,325 --> 00:28:06,205 Speaker 2: day off. They make cookies the entire day, which ends 596 00:28:06,285 --> 00:28:08,524 Speaker 2: up forming presents for the other people in the family. 597 00:28:08,765 --> 00:28:11,605 Speaker 2: They watch Christmas movies. Everyone loves it because they feel 598 00:28:11,605 --> 00:28:13,365 Speaker 2: like they're being a bit naughty and doing something that 599 00:28:13,405 --> 00:28:15,445 Speaker 2: they shouldn't do by taking the day off. And I 600 00:28:15,525 --> 00:28:17,525 Speaker 2: just thought that was brilliant, Like, isn't that what we're 601 00:28:17,525 --> 00:28:21,125 Speaker 2: meant to be looking forward traditions, not buying a bloody 602 00:28:21,125 --> 00:28:22,325 Speaker 2: elf that we put everywhere. 603 00:28:22,565 --> 00:28:24,125 Speaker 3: Thank you for this pep talk. I think this is 604 00:28:24,165 --> 00:28:26,284 Speaker 3: exactly what I need. And what you said before that 605 00:28:26,405 --> 00:28:28,645 Speaker 3: was so beautiful and brilliant, and I want to put 606 00:28:28,645 --> 00:28:30,885 Speaker 3: a highlighter on it. Is if it feels like a chore, 607 00:28:31,045 --> 00:28:33,325 Speaker 3: maybe it's not the tradition for you. And I think 608 00:28:33,325 --> 00:28:35,445 Speaker 3: the reason I'm attracted to the elf, or I have 609 00:28:35,525 --> 00:28:38,085 Speaker 3: this tension around the elf, is because we don't have 610 00:28:38,205 --> 00:28:41,165 Speaker 3: any of these beautiful traditions and so it's like, oh, 611 00:28:41,165 --> 00:28:42,805 Speaker 3: here's one you can just buy off the shelf. 612 00:28:42,925 --> 00:28:45,085 Speaker 1: Sorry, Mom said, you say you're attracted to the earl. 613 00:28:46,205 --> 00:28:48,845 Speaker 3: I am, Yeah, it's fair. There's a whole group of 614 00:28:48,885 --> 00:28:50,405 Speaker 3: us online. 615 00:28:51,605 --> 00:28:52,605 Speaker 1: That's another Facebook. 616 00:28:55,965 --> 00:28:59,125 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm trying to get deep here, right. 617 00:28:59,325 --> 00:29:02,365 Speaker 3: Maybe it is actually about choosing things that we look 618 00:29:02,485 --> 00:29:04,845 Speaker 3: forward to. I think I'm just going to get the 619 00:29:04,845 --> 00:29:09,485 Speaker 3: fucking elf after all of that. Do you know what 620 00:29:09,525 --> 00:29:11,605 Speaker 3: I also love it about your story is that you 621 00:29:11,685 --> 00:29:14,045 Speaker 3: tried something and you quickly realized it wasn't for you 622 00:29:14,085 --> 00:29:16,405 Speaker 3: and you were abandoned. And I think that's quite good because, 623 00:29:16,485 --> 00:29:19,725 Speaker 3: as you said earlier, once you hook into a tradition, 624 00:29:19,845 --> 00:29:21,965 Speaker 3: you have to it's a long term thing to keep 625 00:29:22,005 --> 00:29:23,885 Speaker 3: it going. I want to ask a question about your 626 00:29:23,925 --> 00:29:26,565 Speaker 3: tree Day. Did you do Tree Day as a kid 627 00:29:26,565 --> 00:29:27,245 Speaker 3: with your parents? 628 00:29:27,525 --> 00:29:27,765 Speaker 1: Yes? 629 00:29:27,885 --> 00:29:30,245 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been something that my parents have always done. 630 00:29:30,445 --> 00:29:33,205 Speaker 2: But now there's that tension of where at that point? 631 00:29:33,245 --> 00:29:35,325 Speaker 2: Now where now our daughter is brought in on that? 632 00:29:35,405 --> 00:29:37,765 Speaker 2: But when does that end? And I think that's always 633 00:29:37,845 --> 00:29:41,165 Speaker 2: the hard thing and the sad thing with traditions sometimes 634 00:29:41,245 --> 00:29:43,805 Speaker 2: is they're started by someone who then no longer ends 635 00:29:43,885 --> 00:29:46,765 Speaker 2: up being there. So do you continue that on? Yes? 636 00:29:46,845 --> 00:29:50,125 Speaker 3: Of course you honor them. It's beautiful. Yeah, such a legacy, 637 00:29:50,365 --> 00:29:51,725 Speaker 3: or people can grow out of them. 638 00:29:51,765 --> 00:29:54,325 Speaker 2: Like for our daughter, the night before her birthday, I 639 00:29:54,445 --> 00:29:57,085 Speaker 2: dress all of her stuffed animals in party hats because 640 00:29:57,125 --> 00:30:00,445 Speaker 2: I had seen a video of that. It's an easy 641 00:30:00,565 --> 00:30:02,525 Speaker 2: cheap thing to do. They all sit in a circle 642 00:30:02,565 --> 00:30:05,365 Speaker 2: with her present. So in the morning, all the stuffed 643 00:30:05,405 --> 00:30:07,485 Speaker 2: animals are there for her to get her present. But 644 00:30:07,805 --> 00:30:09,805 Speaker 2: last year when I did it, I felt this big 645 00:30:09,845 --> 00:30:13,365 Speaker 2: sense of because I thought this will end. At some point, 646 00:30:13,445 --> 00:30:15,645 Speaker 2: she won't want me to do this anymore. When she's 647 00:30:15,685 --> 00:30:17,845 Speaker 2: fourteen or fifteen years old, maybe sooner. 648 00:30:17,925 --> 00:30:19,925 Speaker 1: You know what, she might want you to do it. 649 00:30:20,005 --> 00:30:22,605 Speaker 1: She might I will do it until my dying day. 650 00:30:22,685 --> 00:30:25,925 Speaker 3: She wants me to Amelia any traditions other than sleeping 651 00:30:25,925 --> 00:30:26,445 Speaker 3: in at your house. 652 00:30:26,525 --> 00:30:29,645 Speaker 1: You guys, this is such a type a mom conversation. 653 00:30:29,805 --> 00:30:31,925 Speaker 4: I want to point that I love that I don't 654 00:30:31,925 --> 00:30:34,084 Speaker 4: have any love essions go forth. 655 00:30:34,525 --> 00:30:37,165 Speaker 3: Okay, so I'm in the market for a new tradition. 656 00:30:37,405 --> 00:30:38,805 Speaker 3: I think what I would like to know is what 657 00:30:38,885 --> 00:30:41,525 Speaker 3: other people are doing. Stacy, You've got all the ideas, 658 00:30:41,605 --> 00:30:44,365 Speaker 3: but what are our listeners doing that they can recommend? 659 00:30:44,765 --> 00:30:46,445 Speaker 3: I would love it if people could go to our 660 00:30:46,485 --> 00:30:51,485 Speaker 3: Instagram at Parenting Out Loud and tell us your Christmas traditions, 661 00:30:51,525 --> 00:30:54,245 Speaker 3: your family traditions, so that we can copy them and 662 00:30:54,245 --> 00:30:54,685 Speaker 3: steal them. 663 00:30:54,765 --> 00:30:55,165 Speaker 1: Thank you. 664 00:30:55,965 --> 00:30:57,885 Speaker 3: Okay, you know that feeling when a friend tells you 665 00:30:57,885 --> 00:31:00,045 Speaker 3: about something so good that it goes straight into your 666 00:31:00,045 --> 00:31:02,685 Speaker 3: notes app and then you probably never look at it again, 667 00:31:02,725 --> 00:31:05,485 Speaker 3: but you've taken on the recommendation. That's what we do. 668 00:31:05,605 --> 00:31:07,885 Speaker 3: Every week, we bring you the best things that we've 669 00:31:08,245 --> 00:31:11,365 Speaker 3: read or seen or bought or you used, Stacey. 670 00:31:11,605 --> 00:31:13,845 Speaker 2: So this week I got myself a little treat and 671 00:31:13,885 --> 00:31:15,765 Speaker 2: I've had a big reaction to it, so I thought 672 00:31:15,765 --> 00:31:17,405 Speaker 2: I would share here because a lot of people said 673 00:31:17,405 --> 00:31:20,085 Speaker 2: they didn't know about this. I bought myself a makeup 674 00:31:20,165 --> 00:31:20,885 Speaker 2: lesson at Mecca. 675 00:31:21,045 --> 00:31:23,605 Speaker 1: Oh that's brilliant. So it's one hundred and fifty bucks. 676 00:31:23,605 --> 00:31:26,605 Speaker 2: It's not cheap, but it's redeemable on products and you 677 00:31:26,725 --> 00:31:29,125 Speaker 2: take your bag of makeup you already own with you 678 00:31:29,445 --> 00:31:31,205 Speaker 2: and go, this is what I've got, this is what 679 00:31:31,245 --> 00:31:33,765 Speaker 2: I'm using. Can you show me how to use this? 680 00:31:34,245 --> 00:31:36,165 Speaker 2: And then they'll fill in the gaps with anything you 681 00:31:36,165 --> 00:31:38,725 Speaker 2: don't have. So, like, I needed a nice foundation but 682 00:31:38,805 --> 00:31:41,165 Speaker 2: I had an eyeshadow palette that I have owned for 683 00:31:41,285 --> 00:31:44,085 Speaker 2: probably seven years and never actually used because I didn't 684 00:31:44,125 --> 00:31:47,285 Speaker 2: know which ones to use. I loved it. I left 685 00:31:47,325 --> 00:31:50,085 Speaker 2: with a full face of makeup. Okay, I need some tips, Okay, 686 00:31:50,085 --> 00:31:50,645 Speaker 2: that's the best. 687 00:31:50,805 --> 00:31:51,045 Speaker 4: Yeah. 688 00:31:51,045 --> 00:31:53,605 Speaker 2: So the best things I learned were about so I 689 00:31:53,685 --> 00:31:55,365 Speaker 2: just have been doing my makeup the same since I 690 00:31:55,445 --> 00:31:57,565 Speaker 2: was like sixteen years old, where you just like slap 691 00:31:57,645 --> 00:31:59,205 Speaker 2: the foundation on me your hands and rub it all 692 00:31:59,245 --> 00:31:59,725 Speaker 2: over your face. 693 00:31:59,885 --> 00:32:01,685 Speaker 1: You're not mighty to do apparently not. 694 00:32:02,285 --> 00:32:04,645 Speaker 2: The main thing now that we're of a certain age 695 00:32:05,085 --> 00:32:07,805 Speaker 2: is to not put the foundation up and ride up 696 00:32:07,885 --> 00:32:10,045 Speaker 2: under your eyes, because she said, if you're going to 697 00:32:10,045 --> 00:32:13,125 Speaker 2: put on concealer or a color corrector, you're just layering 698 00:32:13,205 --> 00:32:16,165 Speaker 2: heaps of stuff in that spot, and it's what can 699 00:32:16,245 --> 00:32:18,725 Speaker 2: kind of drag your face down. So she left all 700 00:32:18,765 --> 00:32:20,845 Speaker 2: that area and showed me how to put like a 701 00:32:20,925 --> 00:32:23,525 Speaker 2: nice color correcting product that I have. 702 00:32:23,525 --> 00:32:27,125 Speaker 1: Your Sports Look Spectacle, Thank you so much. 703 00:32:27,565 --> 00:32:30,645 Speaker 2: My other one was instead of doing liquid eyeliner, which 704 00:32:30,685 --> 00:32:33,325 Speaker 2: I've never really been able to master, they always look crooked, 705 00:32:33,445 --> 00:32:35,565 Speaker 2: like one will look great and one will look crap. 706 00:32:35,925 --> 00:32:39,005 Speaker 2: She said, I should be using eyeshadow with an angled 707 00:32:39,005 --> 00:32:41,325 Speaker 2: little brush, you know the ones like tiny, tiny, tiny 708 00:32:41,365 --> 00:32:43,645 Speaker 2: little brush with an angle to create a line of 709 00:32:43,685 --> 00:32:46,925 Speaker 2: a flick rather than using a liquid eyeliner because it 710 00:32:46,965 --> 00:32:49,485 Speaker 2: can look a bit too harsh. So I bought a 711 00:32:49,525 --> 00:32:51,605 Speaker 2: ton of things, but I've also now got a ton 712 00:32:51,605 --> 00:32:54,205 Speaker 2: of things on a wish list for Christmas for myself. 713 00:32:54,325 --> 00:32:56,765 Speaker 4: Well, punct did you buy that? You were most excited that? 714 00:32:56,765 --> 00:32:59,365 Speaker 2: Oh, the cheapest thing, the angled brush because I did 715 00:32:59,365 --> 00:33:02,285 Speaker 2: my little flicky eyeliner this morning with brown eyeshadow and 716 00:33:02,325 --> 00:33:04,165 Speaker 2: I feel like it's okay and I won't smudge it 717 00:33:04,165 --> 00:33:07,165 Speaker 2: all over my face. So yeah, hot tip, do that 718 00:33:07,405 --> 00:33:09,765 Speaker 2: or put that on your birthday or Christmas wish list 719 00:33:09,805 --> 00:33:10,365 Speaker 2: for someone. 720 00:33:10,125 --> 00:33:14,045 Speaker 3: To that's so good. While we're talking about makeup, I 721 00:33:14,125 --> 00:33:17,325 Speaker 3: started following that woman you told us about, Amelia Erica Taylor. 722 00:33:17,445 --> 00:33:19,485 Speaker 1: She's a genius. Genius. 723 00:33:19,805 --> 00:33:21,765 Speaker 3: Oh so if you don't have the time or the 724 00:33:21,805 --> 00:33:24,485 Speaker 3: money to get into Mecca, just do the cheapy version 725 00:33:24,525 --> 00:33:27,725 Speaker 3: and follow Erica Taylor on Instagram and just copy what 726 00:33:27,805 --> 00:33:28,165 Speaker 3: she does. 727 00:33:28,245 --> 00:33:29,165 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's brilliant. 728 00:33:29,165 --> 00:33:29,765 Speaker 3: That's great. 729 00:33:30,085 --> 00:33:32,965 Speaker 4: If you own a danim jacket, you probably need to 730 00:33:32,965 --> 00:33:34,445 Speaker 4: be updating your makeup and we. 731 00:33:34,405 --> 00:33:39,165 Speaker 3: Said, all right, little change of pace here, because I 732 00:33:39,205 --> 00:33:41,485 Speaker 3: have a recommendation that goes a bit deeper. You know, 733 00:33:41,645 --> 00:33:44,085 Speaker 3: you when someone you love is going through something really 734 00:33:44,125 --> 00:33:47,125 Speaker 3: shit and you don't know what to say or do. 735 00:33:48,005 --> 00:33:51,325 Speaker 3: It's Breast cancer Awareness month and I read an article 736 00:33:51,565 --> 00:33:54,965 Speaker 3: on substack last night by Lucy Ormond. Her substacks called 737 00:33:54,965 --> 00:33:57,485 Speaker 3: a Year of Healing. And this article is called, so 738 00:33:57,605 --> 00:34:01,285 Speaker 3: your friend's been diagnosed with cancer, Here's how you can help. 739 00:34:01,885 --> 00:34:05,005 Speaker 3: And it was so brilliant. It was full of brilliant 740 00:34:05,045 --> 00:34:07,045 Speaker 3: ideas of how to show up for someone in the 741 00:34:07,085 --> 00:34:09,924 Speaker 3: thick of it, really like low cost things to do, 742 00:34:10,685 --> 00:34:13,685 Speaker 3: things that you should text, things not to say, and 743 00:34:13,725 --> 00:34:16,285 Speaker 3: how these small things can help more than you know. 744 00:34:17,005 --> 00:34:21,325 Speaker 3: A disclaimer is that Lucy is my friend, my very 745 00:34:21,325 --> 00:34:24,004 Speaker 3: dear friend, so you can imagine the guilts that I 746 00:34:24,084 --> 00:34:26,805 Speaker 3: felt when I read this and realized all the things 747 00:34:26,805 --> 00:34:29,484 Speaker 3: I could have done better. So don't be me. Read 748 00:34:29,524 --> 00:34:32,364 Speaker 3: it book market so that the next time you know 749 00:34:32,484 --> 00:34:35,765 Speaker 3: someone that's going through something really horrible, you will know 750 00:34:35,844 --> 00:34:37,325 Speaker 3: what to do. So we might link to it in 751 00:34:37,325 --> 00:34:37,925 Speaker 3: the show notes. 752 00:34:38,044 --> 00:34:40,725 Speaker 4: What's one thing that you shouldn't text or say? 753 00:34:40,844 --> 00:34:45,124 Speaker 3: I know someone that had cancer and diet. Yeah. Yeah, 754 00:34:45,165 --> 00:34:47,524 Speaker 3: my friend had that and they died. She said, why 755 00:34:47,564 --> 00:34:48,205 Speaker 3: would you say that? 756 00:34:48,325 --> 00:34:51,404 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, oh that sounds so helpful. Thanks for that. Mons. 757 00:34:52,084 --> 00:34:56,645 Speaker 4: Mine is a parenting technique that is actually extremely easy 758 00:34:56,725 --> 00:34:59,565 Speaker 4: and dare I say it fun. So I'm not Taype, 759 00:34:59,765 --> 00:35:02,244 Speaker 4: but I am a nerd and I will take any 760 00:35:02,285 --> 00:35:05,285 Speaker 4: opportunity to learn more about how to be a better parent. 761 00:35:06,004 --> 00:35:08,764 Speaker 4: And I took a parenting class in person a couple 762 00:35:08,805 --> 00:35:12,044 Speaker 4: of years ago. It was with an American pediatrician called 763 00:35:12,084 --> 00:35:15,924 Speaker 4: doctor Dan Shapiro. He's extremely sought after. His practice is 764 00:35:15,964 --> 00:35:19,484 Speaker 4: basically impossible to get into. But he does run this 765 00:35:19,604 --> 00:35:22,204 Speaker 4: course and it's called Parent Child Journey, and you can 766 00:35:22,285 --> 00:35:26,604 Speaker 4: actually do it online. And I particularly recommend it for 767 00:35:26,765 --> 00:35:30,605 Speaker 4: parents whose children are neurodivergent, because that is his area 768 00:35:30,685 --> 00:35:33,844 Speaker 4: of specialty. But the tips and the techniques that he 769 00:35:33,924 --> 00:35:38,045 Speaker 4: talks about can be applied for all children. The best 770 00:35:38,084 --> 00:35:40,044 Speaker 4: thing that I took out of it was this concept 771 00:35:40,084 --> 00:35:43,765 Speaker 4: of time ins. Now you've probably heard of time outs, 772 00:35:44,125 --> 00:35:47,364 Speaker 4: but no one should be implementing time outs without also 773 00:35:47,444 --> 00:35:51,205 Speaker 4: implementing time ins. Doctor Shapiro says that the whole concept 774 00:35:51,245 --> 00:35:54,564 Speaker 4: of timeouts as a form of discipline was only ever 775 00:35:54,645 --> 00:35:58,125 Speaker 4: meant to be implemented if you were also doing time ins. Okay, 776 00:35:58,245 --> 00:36:00,524 Speaker 4: so let me explain what a time in is. The 777 00:36:00,564 --> 00:36:03,285 Speaker 4: idea of a time in is committing to spending a 778 00:36:03,364 --> 00:36:06,204 Speaker 4: small amount of time with your kid one on one, 779 00:36:06,685 --> 00:36:09,084 Speaker 4: not with your partner, not with your other kid. He 780 00:36:09,165 --> 00:36:13,205 Speaker 4: talks about actually, when you have a triad group, the 781 00:36:13,325 --> 00:36:16,445 Speaker 4: kid feels that the attention is being divided. So, for instance, 782 00:36:16,524 --> 00:36:18,805 Speaker 4: I have two kids, and obviously is easier for me 783 00:36:18,924 --> 00:36:20,684 Speaker 4: if I'm spending time with them to spend time with 784 00:36:20,725 --> 00:36:22,964 Speaker 4: both of them, and that is what happens the vast 785 00:36:23,004 --> 00:36:26,645 Speaker 4: majority of the time. But he just asks that every 786 00:36:26,685 --> 00:36:29,124 Speaker 4: now and then, if you can carve out some one 787 00:36:29,245 --> 00:36:31,805 Speaker 4: on one time with the kid, and even if it's 788 00:36:31,844 --> 00:36:35,804 Speaker 4: five minutes, you will see really powerful results in terms 789 00:36:35,805 --> 00:36:39,245 Speaker 4: of your connection with them. And he Doctor Shapiro still 790 00:36:39,285 --> 00:36:42,044 Speaker 4: does this with his adult sums. He's still like he'll 791 00:36:42,044 --> 00:36:44,604 Speaker 4: meet them for a coffee and think to himself, this 792 00:36:44,685 --> 00:36:46,364 Speaker 4: is a time in. So there are some rules of 793 00:36:46,404 --> 00:36:49,364 Speaker 4: the time in. You can't ask questions. That was really 794 00:36:49,404 --> 00:36:52,404 Speaker 4: surprising to me because I think we're taught as adults 795 00:36:52,404 --> 00:36:54,964 Speaker 4: that the way you show interest in someone is by 796 00:36:55,004 --> 00:36:57,964 Speaker 4: asking a question. But he explains that to a child 797 00:36:58,044 --> 00:37:02,044 Speaker 4: and in fact, potentially to adults, a question is stressful. 798 00:37:02,325 --> 00:37:05,524 Speaker 4: It requires a response. By asking the question, you are 799 00:37:05,685 --> 00:37:07,084 Speaker 4: requiring someone. 800 00:37:06,805 --> 00:37:07,524 Speaker 1: To answer you. 801 00:37:07,924 --> 00:37:09,444 Speaker 4: And that's not the point of the time. In you 802 00:37:09,484 --> 00:37:13,205 Speaker 4: are not requiring anything of your child. You cannot issue 803 00:37:13,205 --> 00:37:16,444 Speaker 4: instructions to them or commands to them, and you can't 804 00:37:16,524 --> 00:37:20,165 Speaker 4: use your phone. That's pretty obvious. Again, five minutes is fine. 805 00:37:20,364 --> 00:37:22,765 Speaker 4: It's really hard, though, even for five minutes to not 806 00:37:22,884 --> 00:37:25,124 Speaker 4: ask a question, to not issue a command, or to 807 00:37:25,245 --> 00:37:27,964 Speaker 4: not sort of sneak in a little learning like just say, 808 00:37:28,004 --> 00:37:29,844 Speaker 4: they draw a tree and you're like, you know, the 809 00:37:29,884 --> 00:37:33,565 Speaker 4: thing about trees is that they emit oxygen and taking 810 00:37:33,564 --> 00:37:36,084 Speaker 4: Carven dirrexcite, do not teach them anything. This is not 811 00:37:36,165 --> 00:37:39,204 Speaker 4: a teaching time. You were led by them, and I'm 812 00:37:39,245 --> 00:37:40,484 Speaker 4: not very good at it. 813 00:37:40,564 --> 00:37:41,444 Speaker 1: But the other. 814 00:37:41,444 --> 00:37:44,444 Speaker 4: Weekend I spent one on one time with my child 815 00:37:44,524 --> 00:37:47,285 Speaker 4: and I tried to take those principles into our conversation 816 00:37:48,245 --> 00:37:51,404 Speaker 4: and it was really great. I felt like we got 817 00:37:51,404 --> 00:37:55,125 Speaker 4: to spend time together. It was an afternoon we spent together, 818 00:37:55,165 --> 00:37:57,564 Speaker 4: and obviously I issued commands and ask questions over the 819 00:37:57,604 --> 00:38:00,165 Speaker 4: course of the afternoon. But I noticed in the days 820 00:38:00,165 --> 00:38:05,205 Speaker 4: afterwards that our relationship felt much easier than it would 821 00:38:05,245 --> 00:38:07,164 Speaker 4: have had we not had the time in. 822 00:38:07,725 --> 00:38:09,444 Speaker 2: So good And I think it's one of those good 823 00:38:09,444 --> 00:38:12,125 Speaker 2: things because we spent so much time like correction and direction, 824 00:38:12,245 --> 00:38:14,245 Speaker 2: as you said, like you're either telling them what to 825 00:38:14,285 --> 00:38:16,484 Speaker 2: do or steering them towards something else, to just like 826 00:38:16,564 --> 00:38:17,325 Speaker 2: be there with them. 827 00:38:17,404 --> 00:38:19,925 Speaker 3: So yeah, Maggie Dent. I know, we keep going banging 828 00:38:19,924 --> 00:38:21,964 Speaker 3: out about Maggie Dent. She talks about how kids will 829 00:38:22,004 --> 00:38:23,484 Speaker 3: have this cup and you've got to fill it up 830 00:38:23,484 --> 00:38:25,964 Speaker 3: every day, and sounds like the time in is like 831 00:38:26,444 --> 00:38:27,524 Speaker 3: very filling of the cup. 832 00:38:28,044 --> 00:38:30,884 Speaker 4: And again, like he says, aim for like five to 833 00:38:31,004 --> 00:38:33,245 Speaker 4: seven minutes once a week, and you might hear that 834 00:38:33,364 --> 00:38:35,044 Speaker 4: and think that sounds well, that's a week. 835 00:38:35,685 --> 00:38:36,164 Speaker 1: It's hard. 836 00:38:36,404 --> 00:38:39,284 Speaker 4: I mean, that's why I love his advice. It's not unrealistic, 837 00:38:39,725 --> 00:38:41,724 Speaker 4: Like it's like five to seven minutes a week. 838 00:38:41,844 --> 00:38:42,644 Speaker 1: Aim for a time in. 839 00:38:43,364 --> 00:38:46,165 Speaker 3: All right, girls, that's all we have time for parenting, 840 00:38:46,205 --> 00:38:49,444 Speaker 3: culture news trends this week. But friends, if you have 841 00:38:49,564 --> 00:38:52,604 Speaker 3: a friend of yours that would really get this conversation 842 00:38:52,805 --> 00:38:55,325 Speaker 3: and like this show, you should send it to them 843 00:38:55,564 --> 00:38:57,205 Speaker 3: or tell them about it. That's how we're going to 844 00:38:57,245 --> 00:39:00,084 Speaker 3: grow this little community of ours, just one person at 845 00:39:00,165 --> 00:39:02,605 Speaker 3: a time. And people are always looking for new podcasts 846 00:39:02,685 --> 00:39:05,124 Speaker 3: to add to their rotations. So be the friend that 847 00:39:05,285 --> 00:39:08,485 Speaker 3: gives someone a good one to try. A big thanks 848 00:39:08,524 --> 00:39:12,605 Speaker 3: to our team this week, content producer Tessakodovic, our senior 849 00:39:12,645 --> 00:39:16,325 Speaker 3: producer Leah Porges and executive producer Sashtanic and the group 850 00:39:16,364 --> 00:39:19,404 Speaker 3: EPE is Ruth Devine, and you are Stacy, and your 851 00:39:19,404 --> 00:39:21,964 Speaker 3: Amelia and I'm Monique. We are I have a great week. 852 00:39:22,004 --> 00:39:24,004 Speaker 3: We'll be back in the feed next Saturday morning and 853 00:39:24,044 --> 00:39:24,484 Speaker 3: see you later. 854 00:39:24,604 --> 00:39:25,204 Speaker 2: Bye bye