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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: I have some quick feedback for car doors. I do

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Speaker 3: not know how to open you and you're making them

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Speaker 3: looks stupid. Press it, wait no, wave it, wait no,

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Speaker 3: do a little jink do I get invite the food

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Speaker 3: like this is through from the back exactly, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to go in through the windscreen. And then you're sitting

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Speaker 3: there and you're like, I'm in a car with a

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Speaker 3: stranger with no doors.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the ninth of April,

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wayne Wright, and I am consumed with jealousy

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Speaker 2: at all the people of my socials opening their presence

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Speaker 2: from Megan and I just listened to the first episode

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Speaker 2: of a new podcast and she says she stayed up

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Speaker 2: all night trying to figure out how to make the

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Speaker 2: unboxing experience special. So now I'm even more jealous.

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Speaker 4: Has she done anything to make it special?

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Speaker 2: Is something about the text of the box and exactly

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Speaker 2: how the ribbons are?

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Speaker 1: Where would you put the dried Flowers, tost.

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Speaker 3: So Sad, I'm Jesse Stevens, I'm Amelia Laster and.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, do old friends bring out the worst

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Speaker 2: versions of ourselves? The other debate that's still raging after

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Speaker 2: the White Lotus finale. Also last night, right before the

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Speaker 2: first Australian leaders debate of the election, a personal crisis

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Speaker 2: almost derailed the whole thing. What do we expect our

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Speaker 2: politicians to work through? And the paid hate campaign against

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Speaker 2: the wife of one of the world's most famous pop stars.

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Speaker 2: But first, Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 5: In case you missed it, Katy Perry is going to

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Speaker 5: put the ass in astronaut. In an L magazine cover

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Speaker 5: story about her upcoming eleven minute space journey on Jeff

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Speaker 5: Bezos's spacecraft, Katy Perry revealed her thinking in the lead

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Speaker 5: up to this storic trip. She said, space is going

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Speaker 5: to finally be glam. Let me tell you something. If

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Speaker 5: I could take glam with me, I would do that.

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Speaker 5: We are going to put the US an astronaut. Yes,

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Speaker 5: she actually said that. She also said that the first

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Speaker 5: question that she had when she heard that she was

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Speaker 5: going on this journey was what will I wear?

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Speaker 2: That is not my first question.

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Speaker 5: There were some other interesting tidbits in this article. It

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Speaker 5: was a very glam cover shoot. One of the other

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Speaker 5: astronauts revealed that her parents were refugees to the United

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Speaker 5: States from Vietnam, and her name is Amanda Nyan, and

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Speaker 5: she said, we came on boats and now we're on

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Speaker 5: space ships. Another one of the astronauts, Aisha Bo, who

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Speaker 5: was an aeronautical engineer at NASA, said that she's going

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Speaker 5: to be the first person of Bahamean heritage to go

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Speaker 5: into space. She told EL, I've been training for and

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Speaker 5: waiting for this moment my entire life.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so that's what's good about it.

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Speaker 5: I feel like I've recounted the best parts of the

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Speaker 5: L magazine cover story.

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Speaker 1: But excuse me for not being super jazzed about this.

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Speaker 5: Can I share with you why I'm a hater about

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Speaker 5: this particular mission. Bezos is hoping this flight serves as

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Speaker 5: good publicity for his new space tourism program, and that's

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Speaker 5: probably why he was also excited to get these women

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Speaker 5: on the cover of L magazine, some of whom are

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Speaker 5: very accomplished in one of whom is a.

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Speaker 1: Pop star whose best days are possibly behind her, and

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Speaker 1: one of whom is married to him.

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Speaker 5: Now we should mention that Lauren Sanchez, who we're talking

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Speaker 5: about here and who is Jeff Bezos' fiance, is also

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Speaker 5: a helicopter pilot and an Emmy Award winning journalist. But yes,

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Speaker 5: she is also married.

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Speaker 3: Today referred to her as insurance as well. Yes, Jeff

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Speaker 3: Bezos candid as in.

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Speaker 2: Oh, well he's sending Lauren.

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Speaker 4: Then hopefully the ship works.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that wedding is going to be pretty

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Speaker 2: expensive anyway.

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Speaker 5: I cannot think of anything worse than going to space

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Speaker 5: as a tourist. Can we not explore the beauty of

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Speaker 5: planet Earth? Right here, right now? It has oxygen, It

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Speaker 5: has many lovely places to go. It does not require

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Speaker 5: me to go into training in G zero gravity.

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Speaker 3: But I think that they might have already done that.

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Speaker 3: I feel as though, what if they've already been everywhere?

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Speaker 1: Your wedding's in Venice, how do you top that?

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Speaker 3: Exactly right, they need to go up.

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Speaker 2: I know it has a lot of ethical questions space tourism, because,

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Speaker 2: as you're rightly pointing out, I mean, there are lots

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Speaker 2: of amazing places on Earth, and also just the sheer

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Speaker 2: cost of all kinds of shooting. Some rich people into

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Speaker 2: space is questionable. But if I was Katie Perry and

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Speaker 2: I got offered a free seat on that thing, I would.

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Speaker 4: Go in a heartbeat.

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Speaker 2: I would love to go to space. Somebody send me there,

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Speaker 2: spong Con, I'm into it. Some people died, a man

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Speaker 2: pulled himself back from the homicidal brink, a woman got

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Speaker 2: really really rich, and a man did not get an

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Speaker 2: etaple sexual fantasy fulfilled. All these things happen in The

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Speaker 2: White Loadus season finale on Monday, and we're not talking

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Speaker 2: about any of that because A we did it on

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Speaker 2: an episode for subscribers yesterday and b Amelia. This is

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Speaker 2: almost inexplicable to me, who professes to love The White

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Speaker 2: Lotus is somehow holding out on watching any of season

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Speaker 2: three until she's completed mad Men. How many seasons of

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Speaker 2: mad Men are there? I remember watching that when I

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Speaker 2: was bred feeding one of my kids. No, no, it's

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Speaker 2: a lot last time.

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Speaker 1: I'm not ready to leave John Ham's world just yet.

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Speaker 3: She's too busy, just gesturing at city streets, saying, why

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Speaker 3: would you go to space when you could be here

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Speaker 3: and it's just an outside down garbage.

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Speaker 2: It's not that great anchoring for the days when you

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Speaker 2: could drink neat gin in the office at lunchtime.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, I think that's one in my mind.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, So Amelia is holding out and we don't want

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Speaker 2: to give you any spoilers, but we wanted to talk

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Speaker 2: about something related but not spoilery, which is the ongoing

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Speaker 2: conversation around female friendships that this season has started. Whether

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Speaker 2: you are White LOADUSY or not, you would have some

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Speaker 2: recognition because it's impossible to look at the Internet without

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Speaker 2: seeing this. That one of the main guest groups of

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Speaker 2: the season Jacqueline, Kate, and Laurie high school friends who

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Speaker 2: are now in their forties, and they're all at the

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Speaker 2: White LOADUS because Jacqueline's paying. They're all at very different

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Speaker 2: places in their life. Jacqueline is an actress living in Hollywood,

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Speaker 2: Kate is married to a rich student lives in Texas,

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Speaker 2: and Laurie is a lawyer living in New York. And

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Speaker 2: as Laurie says in the monologue that's getting all the

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Speaker 2: attention for the finale, they go through life separately but

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Speaker 2: still somehow together. Here's a little bit of Lourie's monologue

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Speaker 2: from the episode about how being around these old best

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Speaker 2: friends makes her feel I'm glad you have.

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Speaker 6: A beautiful face, and I'm glad that you have a

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Speaker 6: beautiful wife, and I'm just happy to be at the table.

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Speaker 2: During the course of this season, we've watched these women

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Speaker 2: gosh about each other, snipe about each other behind each

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Speaker 2: other's back, fight makeup. It's been a whole thing, and

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Speaker 2: there have been lots of opinions about whether old friends

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Speaker 2: like these are toxic or good for us, or aspirational

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Speaker 2: or stilting. A piece in The New York Times called

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Speaker 2: why Old Friends bring out our worst teenage selves argued

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Speaker 2: that the trio illustrate with old friends, and that's that

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Speaker 2: no one ever changes. Alicia Haradasia Gupta writes to many viewers,

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Speaker 2: these details spotlight a common experience. Sometimes you regress when

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Speaker 2: you're with the people you've known the longest. Being reminded

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Speaker 2: of a long tucked away facet of your personality can

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Speaker 2: be one of the upsides of long term friendship, but

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Speaker 2: old friends can also bring back long abandoned self doubt

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Speaker 2: and unhealthy patterns that can leave you with that ick feeling. Amelia,

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Speaker 2: You're not watching this show, but do you relate to

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Speaker 2: the stockness of old friendships.

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Speaker 1: I really do.

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Speaker 5: This year, I have both my twenty fifth year university

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Speaker 5: reunion and my twenty year high school reunion.

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Speaker 4: Are you a person who goes?

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Speaker 5: I love reunions because I'm just so curious to find

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Speaker 5: out what everyone's up to and know all of their business.

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Speaker 5: But there's something deeply confronting about it, and it goes

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Speaker 5: to the heart of why my chats with old friends

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Speaker 5: are the hardest and the most fraught. And I think

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Speaker 5: it's because there's always a sense of a gap between

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Speaker 5: the person you were in that friendship when it started

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Speaker 5: and when it blossomed, and who you are now, and

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Speaker 5: there's an element of your friends resenting you for that gap,

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Speaker 5: but also you resenting them for not appreciating your evolution.

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Speaker 5: So in a way, I disagree with the New York

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Speaker 5: Times piece. I think the problem is not that you

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Speaker 5: don't change. I think the problem is that everyone inevitably changes,

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Speaker 5: particularly at this point by the time you get into

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Speaker 5: your twentieth year high school reunion, everyone's had significant and

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Speaker 5: real challenges and those have shaped you in ways that

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Speaker 5: are profound. And there's a sense that with really old friends,

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Speaker 5: you're screaming at them. I've changed, acknowledge how I've changed,

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Speaker 5: but all they want to do is treat you like

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Speaker 5: they treated you when you were sixteen.

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Speaker 3: I've had this exact experience of feeling like I've had

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Speaker 3: old friends trying to tie me to who I work,

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Speaker 3: and I turn up going I'm an adult with a job,

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Speaker 3: and I got my car keys now and I've got

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Speaker 3: a baby, and like, I'm an adult and they want

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Speaker 3: to see you as the fourteen year old pimply girl

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Speaker 3: who had Leonardo DiCaprio on my wall and got you know,

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Speaker 3: ghosted by boys on MSN or something.

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Speaker 2: They do they want to see you like that? Or

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Speaker 2: do you see that version of you reflected in them?

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Like, because are they literally

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Speaker 2: these old friends trying to knock you down a peg

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Speaker 2: or two? Or are you just always really conscious of

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Speaker 2: the version of Jesse that they know about that all

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Speaker 2: your new people don't know about it.

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Speaker 3: I think there are two types. There are certainly friends

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Speaker 3: who I have felt as though are trying to maybe

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Speaker 3: knock me down a peg maybe and like remind you

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Speaker 3: of really sore memories that you're like, oh, I've actually

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Speaker 3: not come to terms with that, or that's actually still

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Speaker 3: kind of a little bit raw. And then there are

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Speaker 3: others that you might show up and I've had this

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Speaker 3: experience of showing up and trying to kind of project

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Speaker 3: this thing of success, and they're like, I can see

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Speaker 3: through this bullshit. They're the ones who you'll stay friends with.

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Speaker 5: Well, And that's a fine line someone saying I can

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Speaker 5: see through your bullshit and someone knocking you down a

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Speaker 5: peg is a fine line that old friends are always walking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when it comes to these women on the White lotus, right,

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Speaker 2: I remember when they first walked into the hotel and

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Speaker 2: they were in this sea of like gushing about each other.

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Speaker 2: You look gorgeous, You look gorgeous. No, you look gorgeous.

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Speaker 2: We're so lucky to be here, which quickly began to

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Speaker 2: crumble and we all said, oh, they're not really friends.

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Speaker 2: But by the end of this journey, I thought, no,

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Speaker 2: they really are friends. Because the glorious thing about old

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Speaker 2: friends is they do know all your secrets and they

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Speaker 2: do know all your shit, and you don't have to

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Speaker 2: pretend to be perfect around them because they know that

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Speaker 2: you're really not perfect, and you know that they're really

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Speaker 2: not perfect. And there's like a freedom in that.

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Speaker 5: But do you ever feel a little deflated by that

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Speaker 5: as well? I agree there's a freedom in it, but

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Speaker 5: for instance, you came across the seas to Australia at

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Speaker 5: a pretty young age. Did when you catch up with

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Speaker 5: friends who didn't make that enormous journey back in England?

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Speaker 1: Do you ever feel like.

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Speaker 5: There's somehow a resentment there that you took yourself off

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Speaker 5: and started in new life somewhere else attention even.

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's a well, I'm sure there probably

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Speaker 2: is in some ways. I remember feeling that really keenly

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Speaker 2: when I first left Manchester and I was studying in

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Speaker 2: London and living in London, and I'd go home to

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Speaker 2: Manchester at Christmas and there would be some people who

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Speaker 2: used to hang around with who would literally say, Oh,

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Speaker 2: you think you're all that now you live in London,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like literally say that to you.

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Speaker 2: I remember being really shocked by that, because I didn't

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Speaker 2: think I was all that. Like, I'm not invested in

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Speaker 2: thinking that I'm special or have status or whatever. It's

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Speaker 2: not really my thing. I'm more interested in what's going

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Speaker 2: on with you, because the truth of it is is

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Speaker 2: it's all the same, Like wherever you live or whatever.

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Speaker 2: As you said before, Amelia, you've been through the same stuff.

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Speaker 2: You've been through the relationship breakdowns, you've been through the

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Speaker 2: crisis of health around your family, you've been through jobs

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Speaker 2: that didn't work out, things that didn't happen. Like I

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Speaker 2: think that if you imagine that the role of female

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Speaker 2: friendships is always just to sit around telling each other

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Speaker 2: how great we are and how successful we are and

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Speaker 2: how perfect we are, then we're missing the point. And

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Speaker 2: I think that that's one of the things I thought

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Speaker 2: about when I was watching these women, is because they

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Speaker 2: were doing this sniping behind each other's back in some

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Speaker 2: of the early episodes, and it was bitchy. But then

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Speaker 2: at the same time, they're the people who are the

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Speaker 2: ones who can say, I think she's drinking too much.

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Speaker 2: And I would rather that those people were saying that

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Speaker 2: to each other than they were saying it out in

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Speaker 2: the world. My old friends, whether they're from England or

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Speaker 2: from earlier in my life in Australia or whatever, they

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Speaker 2: have all kinds of opinions about me not being perfect,

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Speaker 2: and that's okay.

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Speaker 3: I wondered too, if it has a lot to do

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Speaker 3: with how you feel about the version of you at fourteen,

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Speaker 3: if you've not made peace with her yet, if you

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Speaker 3: still carry sham and embarrassment and insecurity, because there's something

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Speaker 3: so specific I think about the experience of being a

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Speaker 3: teenage girl. You were your most insecure self, but so

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Speaker 3: were all of the people you grew up with. And

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Speaker 3: sometimes I have this friend that I saw recently, hadn't

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Speaker 3: seen her in ages and grew up with her. I

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Speaker 3: have flushes of things she said to me, And now

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Speaker 3: I'm in my mid thirties now like, why am I

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Speaker 3: still We're going back twenty years to a version I'm

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Speaker 3: sure she wouldn't think was the best version of her.

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Speaker 3: But I'm bringing all of that tension to the conversation.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm reluctant in that episode and in that monologue,

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Speaker 3: and she says time gives relationships meaning. And I've got

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Speaker 3: friends that I've known since I was five and all

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Speaker 3: through school, a very very select few of them. But

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Speaker 3: I'm also glad of about the friends that I shed,

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Speaker 3: because I don't think that time necessarily always gives relationships meaning.

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Speaker 3: I really related to the New York Times article the

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Speaker 3: ick feeling I can walk away and actually like shake

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Speaker 3: it off and be like ugh, say feel yuck and

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Speaker 3: spend time.

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Speaker 2: And I can from friendships from different parts of my

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Speaker 2: life that aren't necessarily that long ago. But you know,

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Speaker 2: there's you know, you weren't in a great place, or

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Speaker 2: you all bonded by bitching toxically about something, whether it's

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Speaker 2: a job or a person or relationship, and that's certainly

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Speaker 2: to be shed. But one of the things I thought

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Speaker 2: about these women, and this idea of Lourie's monologue about

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Speaker 2: time brings meaning is I think for some people it's

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Speaker 2: your family who play that role of like they know

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Speaker 2: that you're not all that right, but they love you anyway.

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Speaker 2: But not everybody's family plays that role. If your family

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Speaker 2: doesn't play that role in your life, then it's your

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Speaker 2: old friend's Ideally, who do they know all the mistakes

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Speaker 2: you made, They know the flings you had that you

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have had, they know the relationships that should have

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Speaker 2: been flings, They know all the awful haircuts, they know

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Speaker 2: that awful thing you said to someone, and they love

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Speaker 2: you anyway. That is the ideal situation, And not everybody

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Speaker 2: gets that from their family. So if you can get

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Speaker 2: that from your old friends and really these women in

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Speaker 2: the end, they do like they might have their jealousies

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Speaker 2: and their tensions, but I got the feeling that when

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Speaker 2: they'd walk away from there, if anyone else tried to

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Speaker 2: bitch to one of them about rich famous Jacqueline Kate

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Speaker 2: Laurie would be shutting them down.

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Speaker 5: I think that you're onto something there by bringing up family,

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Speaker 5: because I think those old friendships start to feel like

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Speaker 5: family in the sense that they're not as easy, and

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Speaker 5: they're often not as fun as they're almost they're almost.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes they don't feel completely optional, and when I think

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Speaker 5: about would I rather have a drink tonight with an

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Speaker 5: old friend or a new friend? The new friends certainly

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Speaker 5: less complicated and certainly more breezy, and they're not going

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Speaker 5: to ask me hard questions. During COVID, I went through

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Speaker 5: a really hard time, as I'm sure billions of people

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Speaker 5: around the world did. But I felt sort of uniquely

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Speaker 5: aggrieved for a couple of reasons, some of which I've

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Speaker 5: spoken about on this podcast and some of which are

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Speaker 5: not my stories to tell. But I retreated into myself

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Speaker 5: and my family because I felt that no one could

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Speaker 5: really understand why my experience was so uniquely difficult, and

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Speaker 5: at the time it was interesting because the newer friends

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Speaker 5: accepted that retreat and said, Okay, well, I guess she's busy.

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Speaker 5: But you know who's not going to accept a retreat

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Speaker 5: a self pitying, wallowing retreat is the old friends. They're

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Speaker 5: the ones who then send me the food deliveries and

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Speaker 5: send me three texts in a row when they haven't

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Speaker 5: received a response. So although I started off this conversation

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Speaker 5: by talking about how the group chats with my old

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Speaker 5: friends are my most fraught, I ultimately feel like it's

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Speaker 5: shown me that the fraughtness is part of what makes

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Speaker 5: it valuable.

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Speaker 2: And just to remind everyone, if you are obsessed with

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Speaker 2: the white Lotus and all the things that happened in

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Speaker 2: the finale and you need someone to talk to about it,

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Speaker 2: we've got you Jesse and myself and Laura Brodnick ahead

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Speaker 2: of Entertainment, who's interviewed all the stars and knows all

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Speaker 2: the gossip, did a nice long subscriber episode and it's

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Speaker 2: in your feed if you scroll back. In a moment

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Speaker 2: last night, one of the Australian leaders on the debate

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Speaker 2: stage it just received some terrible personal news. How do

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Speaker 2: we expect powerful people to work through.

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Speaker 3: Last night, the first leader's debate took place in Western

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Speaker 3: Sydney between Prime Minister Anthony Albernezi and Opposition leader Peter Dutton.

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Speaker 3: What many Australians didn't know as the debate unfolded was

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Speaker 3: that just moments before, Dutton received news that his father

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Speaker 3: had suffered a heart attack. While he considered pulling out

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Speaker 3: of the first debate of the election campaign, he ultimately persevered.

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Speaker 3: Liberal Senator Jane Hume was on Sunrise this morning and

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Speaker 3: here's a little bit of what she said.

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Speaker 7: I think you can rest assured that the fact that

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Speaker 7: Peter fronted up to the debate after hearing that news

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Speaker 7: performed exceptionally well, is demonstrative of just how dedicated he

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Speaker 7: is to the job that he has and the kind

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Speaker 7: of prime minister that he will be.

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Speaker 3: Peter Dutton shows up even in the wake of his

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Speaker 3: father's heart attack. That was the message we got. Also

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Speaker 3: this week, the wife of the Vice President of the

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Speaker 3: United States, jd Vance, her name is Ushervan, spoke about

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Speaker 3: the loneliness of his role. They spend little time together,

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Speaker 3: she said, and she reflected on experiences like being booed

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Speaker 3: in public putting the actual politics to the side for

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Speaker 3: a moment. I can't stop thinking, and I've been thinking

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Speaker 3: this all morning. Who would do it? Who would put

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Speaker 3: their hand up? Dunton turned up to a debate he

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Speaker 3: ultimately lost. He'll cop more criticism than praise. It looks

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Speaker 3: like the worst job in the world, Amelia, am I

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Speaker 3: right or wrong?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? It's a real dilemma, isn't it, Because, like you said,

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Speaker 5: setting aside what people might think of each of those

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Speaker 5: men's politics, the only way that our democracy can thrive

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Speaker 5: is if ordinary people who have jobs and families and

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Speaker 5: full lives, full personal lives, step up and say I'm

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Speaker 5: going to enter public life. And yet we keep treating

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Speaker 5: them in ways that make it look completely grotesque as

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Speaker 5: an experience, and that contributes then to the ditcherieration of

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Speaker 5: our political life.

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Speaker 3: And we've had so many examples.

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Speaker 4: I was thinking.

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Speaker 3: Remember Scott Morrison talked about having anxiety and ultimately being

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Speaker 3: medicated while being the Prime minister. Malcolm Turnbull has spoken

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Speaker 3: about suicidal ideation during leadership, and Jacinda Ardern has talked

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Speaker 3: about burnout. Like leaders keep telling us that they're not coping,

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Speaker 3: which I also think is a brave thing to do.

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Speaker 3: But you go, well, of course you're not the pressure,

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Speaker 3: the inability to step back if you need to, and

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Speaker 3: the scrutiny is just getting greater and greater.

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Speaker 5: Michelle Obama has said that basically she and Barack Obama

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Speaker 5: didn't talk for the eight years he was president.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Well it's an important job, right, Yeah, if you

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Speaker 2: took the politics out of it. Anytime you're presented with

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to make your work bigger, like a promotion,

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Speaker 2: say in an ordinary field, you have to weigh that

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Speaker 2: up against the costs. Right. You're going to get more money,

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Speaker 2: which you know they earn pretty good money. Yeah, the politicians,

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Speaker 2: I mean not compared to bankers, they don't, but compared

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Speaker 2: to the average Australian they earn several times the average salary.

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Speaker 2: You're going to get more money, but you are going

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Speaker 2: to have to sacrifice things that is almost inevitable. It's

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Speaker 2: going to take more time. You're going to have whether

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Speaker 2: it's like I have to accept calls outside of work time.

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Speaker 2: I might have to work on weekends. Sometimes I might

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Speaker 2: have to travel and be away from the kids. These

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Speaker 2: are the decisions that ordinary people have to weigh up

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Speaker 2: all the time, right, and you go is it worth it?

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Speaker 2: What you hope politicians think is that I am choosing

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Speaker 2: a life of service. This is what we hope, right,

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Speaker 2: And the price of that service is going to be high.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of people say that for female politicians

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Speaker 2: in particular, it's getting higher all the time because of

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Speaker 2: the amount of public scrutiny and abuse that never ends,

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Speaker 2: that gets thrown at you. Can you survive it? I

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Speaker 2: think that in business and in politics and in life,

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Speaker 2: some people can and some people can't. You know what

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Speaker 2: I mean? There are You have to be a certain

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Speaker 2: type of person to be able to compartmentalize. And that

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Speaker 2: is exactly what Dunn had to do last night, is

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Speaker 2: he had to go, Okay, I've just had this bad

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Speaker 2: news about my dad. I've got to get through this

421
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Speaker 2: next our and no one prepared for it, and now

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it

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Speaker 2: and then I'll call my mom. I imagine that's what

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Speaker 2: he is, right, Yeah, And that's what a lot of

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Speaker 2: people have to do when they have to go to work.

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Speaker 2: It's what doctors have to do when they go to work.

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Speaker 2: It's what all kinds of people do. I guess the

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Speaker 2: thing that I that concerns me a little bit is

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Speaker 2: I wonder if and I'm not a psychologist, so I

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Speaker 2: don't know, but that personality type who can handle that

431
00:21:32,821 --> 00:21:37,461
Speaker 2: level of pressure and sort of disassociating is necessarily the

432
00:21:37,542 --> 00:21:40,702
Speaker 2: person you want to be making all their big decisions

433
00:21:40,742 --> 00:21:41,101
Speaker 2: in the world.

434
00:21:41,182 --> 00:21:43,662
Speaker 5: Well, in fact, it's someone who must relish it on

435
00:21:43,702 --> 00:21:46,941
Speaker 5: some level because that's why they've chosen that job, and

436
00:21:46,982 --> 00:21:49,462
Speaker 5: there's nothing but confrontation in that job as well.

437
00:21:49,661 --> 00:21:53,861
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, there's been lots written about leadership

438
00:21:53,942 --> 00:21:59,341
Speaker 3: and CEOs and psychopathy and narcissism and sociopathy, and how

439
00:21:59,982 --> 00:22:03,581
Speaker 3: almost some of those qualities make you a better leader

440
00:22:03,742 --> 00:22:08,141
Speaker 3: because you are non empathetic, you don't care how people

441
00:22:08,542 --> 00:22:14,222
Speaker 3: feel your MANI pilative, dishonest, unremorseful, exploitative, And I guess

442
00:22:14,262 --> 00:22:17,221
Speaker 3: that's the worry and why people say that disproportionately leaders

443
00:22:17,341 --> 00:22:20,061
Speaker 3: fall into those positions, and in fact the world needs

444
00:22:20,141 --> 00:22:22,462
Speaker 3: them because you know, they're one percent of the population

445
00:22:22,581 --> 00:22:25,381
Speaker 3: or whatever it is. But Dutton, who I'm not saying

446
00:22:25,502 --> 00:22:28,581
Speaker 3: is a psychopath. But if you're a flesh and blood

447
00:22:28,661 --> 00:22:32,421
Speaker 3: human being and you're confronted with this news minute. So

448
00:22:32,462 --> 00:22:34,861
Speaker 3: apparently it was hours a few hours before it happened,

449
00:22:34,861 --> 00:22:36,341
Speaker 3: but he was told just minutes before.

450
00:22:36,462 --> 00:22:38,101
Speaker 2: If I was his advice as I wouldn't have told

451
00:22:38,182 --> 00:22:38,582
Speaker 2: him to left.

452
00:22:40,861 --> 00:22:44,742
Speaker 3: No, very true, very true. But most people could leave.

453
00:22:45,061 --> 00:22:47,222
Speaker 3: I could leave, Like even if I had a podcast

454
00:22:47,262 --> 00:22:50,022
Speaker 3: in a minute, I'd be covered. And you know, we

455
00:22:50,101 --> 00:22:52,861
Speaker 3: tell each other all the time at work, this isn't

456
00:22:52,861 --> 00:22:56,022
Speaker 3: brain surgery. Sorry to brain surgeons. That actually is brain surgery.

457
00:22:56,022 --> 00:22:59,101
Speaker 3: It's really important. But we talk about work life balance

458
00:22:59,101 --> 00:23:02,701
Speaker 3: and the importance of personal relationships, and then we expect

459
00:23:03,581 --> 00:23:05,782
Speaker 3: so much of politicians. And then of course I started

460
00:23:05,821 --> 00:23:08,262
Speaker 3: reading some of the commentary and just guess what they

461
00:23:08,341 --> 00:23:10,381
Speaker 3: said about him and his relationship with his father. Like

462
00:23:10,381 --> 00:23:14,101
Speaker 3: it's just it's horrific, it's awful, and in order to

463
00:23:14,182 --> 00:23:16,701
Speaker 3: survive that, you must have to harden.

464
00:23:16,821 --> 00:23:19,422
Speaker 2: Here's a question, right because I was listening to Megan's

465
00:23:19,422 --> 00:23:22,501
Speaker 2: podcast this morning. Yep, they had this very wise business

466
00:23:22,542 --> 00:23:25,061
Speaker 2: woman on it. What's her name, Amelia, you know, Whitney Wolf,

467
00:23:25,502 --> 00:23:29,582
Speaker 2: thank you. She founded Bumble And she said that as

468
00:23:29,581 --> 00:23:31,821
Speaker 2: a business person, when she's got a big challenge in

469
00:23:31,821 --> 00:23:34,061
Speaker 2: front of her, she has a rule of fives. Is

470
00:23:34,101 --> 00:23:37,022
Speaker 2: this going to matter in five minutes, five hours, five days,

471
00:23:38,341 --> 00:23:40,302
Speaker 2: so says some people say that all the time. Because

472
00:23:40,302 --> 00:23:44,182
Speaker 2: here's another question that's worth asking. What would have happened

473
00:23:44,542 --> 00:23:48,782
Speaker 2: if Dutton had called Sky News an hour before the

474
00:23:48,861 --> 00:23:53,061
Speaker 2: leader's debate and said, my dad's in hospital. I'm going

475
00:23:53,101 --> 00:23:55,222
Speaker 2: to go to him. The world would not have ended

476
00:23:55,742 --> 00:23:57,502
Speaker 2: five minutes, five hours. There would have been a lot

477
00:23:57,542 --> 00:23:58,821
Speaker 2: of headlines. In fact, it would have got him a

478
00:23:58,861 --> 00:24:01,021
Speaker 2: lot of sympathetic headlines. There would have been a lot

479
00:24:01,022 --> 00:24:03,741
Speaker 2: of headlines about it. But in five days, five weeks,

480
00:24:04,061 --> 00:24:07,621
Speaker 2: five years, would you rather be on the debate stage

481
00:24:07,742 --> 00:24:11,821
Speaker 2: delivering a slightly lackluster perfre rnmance or would you rather

482
00:24:11,861 --> 00:24:14,502
Speaker 2: be by your dad's bedside? Now we don't know anything

483
00:24:14,502 --> 00:24:16,982
Speaker 2: about the health status of Peter Dutton's dad, so that's

484
00:24:17,022 --> 00:24:19,461
Speaker 2: a whole other thing. If the nurse is calling you

485
00:24:19,502 --> 00:24:21,581
Speaker 2: and saying the doctor's calling you and saying, but he's fine,

486
00:24:21,621 --> 00:24:23,941
Speaker 2: he's stable, you can be here at ten o'clock and

487
00:24:23,942 --> 00:24:25,981
Speaker 2: it will be fine. And that's a different decision. But

488
00:24:26,022 --> 00:24:27,862
Speaker 2: if you think about the rule of five, in that situation,

489
00:24:27,982 --> 00:24:30,661
Speaker 2: we say he couldn't leave. He could have left like

490
00:24:31,141 --> 00:24:33,581
Speaker 2: it just feels very often when you're in a very

491
00:24:33,661 --> 00:24:36,502
Speaker 2: high stake situation that you have no choice.

492
00:24:36,101 --> 00:24:38,182
Speaker 4: Like I've found.

493
00:24:38,302 --> 00:24:38,502
Speaker 1: Yeah.

494
00:24:38,542 --> 00:24:42,302
Speaker 3: Absolutely, That's why I found Jane Hume's comments really interesting.

495
00:24:42,782 --> 00:24:45,782
Speaker 3: It felt like something from another era of her saying

496
00:24:46,141 --> 00:24:48,462
Speaker 3: he proved how much he cares about this position by

497
00:24:48,542 --> 00:24:49,782
Speaker 3: not going and visible we don't.

498
00:24:50,982 --> 00:24:54,061
Speaker 2: It's like footy players who missed the births of their children. Yes,

499
00:24:54,101 --> 00:24:56,261
Speaker 2: this is a really classic one of those, a bit

500
00:24:56,302 --> 00:24:59,101
Speaker 2: of a rauwshack test. Do you see that which happens

501
00:24:59,101 --> 00:25:00,821
Speaker 2: all the time. They'd say, my wife's gone into labor,

502
00:25:00,861 --> 00:25:03,262
Speaker 2: but I'm playing the game anyway. Now, it's probably what

503
00:25:03,381 --> 00:25:05,502
Speaker 2: gender you are that decides how you see that. But

504
00:25:06,182 --> 00:25:09,182
Speaker 2: do you see that as that guy is an absolute hero,

505
00:25:09,621 --> 00:25:11,462
Speaker 2: he cares about his team more than anything, and he's

506
00:25:11,462 --> 00:25:13,661
Speaker 2: never gonna let the fans down and the baby's going

507
00:25:13,702 --> 00:25:15,022
Speaker 2: to be there in an hour when he gets to

508
00:25:15,101 --> 00:25:17,262
Speaker 2: the game, or do you see that as like your

509
00:25:17,302 --> 00:25:18,982
Speaker 2: priorities are screwede.

510
00:25:19,022 --> 00:25:21,821
Speaker 5: I was actually thinking about that phrase use before Hollywood.

511
00:25:21,901 --> 00:25:24,222
Speaker 5: You said that one of the qualities politicians need is

512
00:25:24,262 --> 00:25:27,981
Speaker 5: the ability to compartmentalize. And I think that we're beyond

513
00:25:28,022 --> 00:25:31,701
Speaker 5: an age where we think that's an inherently positive trait.

514
00:25:32,381 --> 00:25:36,142
Speaker 5: I think leaders now we want them to not compartmentalize,

515
00:25:36,141 --> 00:25:38,621
Speaker 5: but to think about the effects of their actions and

516
00:25:38,661 --> 00:25:42,661
Speaker 5: policies on all sorts of groups, not just their base

517
00:25:42,821 --> 00:25:44,302
Speaker 5: or their constituents.

518
00:25:46,581 --> 00:25:49,542
Speaker 3: Feedback is a gift from both the perspective of a

519
00:25:49,581 --> 00:25:53,542
Speaker 3: giver as well as the recipient. I have some quick

520
00:25:53,581 --> 00:25:54,821
Speaker 3: feedback for cardors.

521
00:25:55,982 --> 00:25:57,341
Speaker 4: Have you guys been thinking about cards?

522
00:25:57,422 --> 00:25:58,982
Speaker 2: I would never think about card doors.

523
00:25:59,061 --> 00:26:01,262
Speaker 3: I do not know how to open you, and you're

524
00:26:01,302 --> 00:26:05,141
Speaker 3: making me it's stupid. I have never been able to

525
00:26:05,182 --> 00:26:06,861
Speaker 3: get into my dad's car, not once.

526
00:26:07,101 --> 00:26:08,621
Speaker 4: It's not even a fancy car. It's not a particularly

527
00:26:08,621 --> 00:26:11,262
Speaker 4: fancy cart syage. No, no, it's just.

528
00:26:11,222 --> 00:26:12,982
Speaker 2: Oh my god, imagine you need to turn up to

529
00:26:12,982 --> 00:26:13,942
Speaker 2: get into a cyber truck.

530
00:26:14,141 --> 00:26:14,901
Speaker 1: Second you try and.

531
00:26:14,901 --> 00:26:18,302
Speaker 3: Pull the handle, it's like no, press it, wait, no,

532
00:26:18,381 --> 00:26:20,542
Speaker 3: wave it, wait, no, do a little jig, and you

533
00:26:20,661 --> 00:26:22,941
Speaker 3: just find yourself doing a little jig. And I have

534
00:26:23,061 --> 00:26:25,341
Speaker 3: now lost my confidence so much that when I see

535
00:26:25,341 --> 00:26:28,542
Speaker 3: an old school, old car with a normal handle, I

536
00:26:28,621 --> 00:26:29,381
Speaker 3: do weird things.

537
00:26:29,581 --> 00:26:32,382
Speaker 4: I start going like just trying to do something.

538
00:26:32,702 --> 00:26:35,461
Speaker 3: I'm pushing it, yes, exactly in front of it, to

539
00:26:35,462 --> 00:26:37,382
Speaker 3: see if there's a sensor, like I don't know how

540
00:26:37,581 --> 00:26:40,701
Speaker 3: to actually engage with a normal car anymore. Can we

541
00:26:40,901 --> 00:26:45,302
Speaker 3: just agree that a car door just has a normal handle.

542
00:26:45,381 --> 00:26:46,662
Speaker 1: Like what it was working well?

543
00:26:46,782 --> 00:26:48,822
Speaker 4: It was working fine. It has never complained.

544
00:26:48,861 --> 00:26:50,782
Speaker 2: Because the time that I struggle with this is if

545
00:26:50,821 --> 00:26:52,861
Speaker 2: I'm in an Uber that's a Tesla. No, I know

546
00:26:53,861 --> 00:26:55,982
Speaker 2: Tesla's having a whole lot of PR problems. I don't

547
00:26:55,982 --> 00:26:57,661
Speaker 2: want to add to Elon's worries, or maybe I do,

548
00:26:58,022 --> 00:27:01,741
Speaker 2: but I can never get out by myself, saying to

549
00:27:01,782 --> 00:27:02,982
Speaker 2: the Uber driver, I.

550
00:27:02,942 --> 00:27:03,862
Speaker 3: Don't know how to get out.

551
00:27:03,942 --> 00:27:05,141
Speaker 2: Then I get a bit panicky.

552
00:27:05,222 --> 00:27:06,901
Speaker 1: It's probably affecting your Uber rating.

553
00:27:07,022 --> 00:27:10,262
Speaker 3: It probably how did we enter a world we cannot

554
00:27:10,302 --> 00:27:12,502
Speaker 3: exit a car anymore? Like we get into an Uber,

555
00:27:12,742 --> 00:27:14,381
Speaker 3: don't get me started on like it stops on a

556
00:27:14,422 --> 00:27:16,461
Speaker 3: main street and you need to get on quickly, and

557
00:27:16,502 --> 00:27:18,341
Speaker 3: you're like, do I get in by the boot? Like

558
00:27:19,222 --> 00:27:21,741
Speaker 3: this is happening through from the bag exactly, I'm going

559
00:27:21,821 --> 00:27:23,581
Speaker 3: to go in through the windscreen. And then you're sitting

560
00:27:23,621 --> 00:27:25,462
Speaker 3: there and you're like, I'm in a car with a

561
00:27:25,462 --> 00:27:26,462
Speaker 3: stranger with no doors.

562
00:27:27,022 --> 00:27:30,502
Speaker 2: Jukes have hazard style just climbing through the window, slide on.

563
00:27:30,542 --> 00:27:34,621
Speaker 3: Down after the break the paid hate campaign against the

564
00:27:34,661 --> 00:27:37,462
Speaker 3: spouse of one of the world's most famous pop stars.

565
00:27:38,022 --> 00:27:39,701
Speaker 3: It is all or nothing.

566
00:27:40,022 --> 00:27:43,782
Speaker 2: One unlimited out Loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

567
00:27:43,821 --> 00:27:47,861
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

568
00:27:47,901 --> 00:27:49,662
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears

569
00:27:49,901 --> 00:27:52,661
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

570
00:27:52,861 --> 00:27:54,462
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

571
00:28:00,661 --> 00:28:03,701
Speaker 5: I've gone deep on this topic and the topic is

572
00:28:04,302 --> 00:28:05,942
Speaker 5: TikTok hate campaigns.

573
00:28:06,061 --> 00:28:08,982
Speaker 2: Oh good, I'm gonna remind you the yame not good.

574
00:28:09,101 --> 00:28:11,542
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to remind you that you went to Harvard.

575
00:28:12,581 --> 00:28:12,821
Speaker 1: Well.

576
00:28:12,942 --> 00:28:16,581
Speaker 5: I have become officially Mama Mia out Loud's tariff's correspondent

577
00:28:16,621 --> 00:28:17,942
Speaker 5: and TikTok correspondent.

578
00:28:18,341 --> 00:28:21,462
Speaker 1: So gather around. This all started a couple of days ago.

579
00:28:21,661 --> 00:28:24,381
Speaker 5: There's a Netflix show called Too Hot to Handle Yes,

580
00:28:24,542 --> 00:28:26,582
Speaker 5: where the contestants have to give up sex in order

581
00:28:26,581 --> 00:28:27,462
Speaker 5: to win the cash price.

582
00:28:27,542 --> 00:28:30,181
Speaker 2: Oh, Jesse would be across that sounds Yeah.

583
00:28:30,262 --> 00:28:33,141
Speaker 5: There's a Canadian influencer who became famous from that show.

584
00:28:33,182 --> 00:28:36,581
Speaker 5: Her name is Francesca Farrago, and she went on Snapchat

585
00:28:36,621 --> 00:28:39,221
Speaker 5: earlier this week and she said she had been offered

586
00:28:39,262 --> 00:28:42,582
Speaker 5: money to contribute to a trend on TikTok to hate

587
00:28:42,582 --> 00:28:43,542
Speaker 5: on Hailey Bieber.

588
00:28:43,942 --> 00:28:46,662
Speaker 3: Did we know that you get paid for a trad We.

589
00:28:46,742 --> 00:28:49,221
Speaker 5: Thought, but we didn't know for sure, and now this

590
00:28:49,302 --> 00:28:51,142
Speaker 5: has been confirmed. She said she was offered a good

591
00:28:51,182 --> 00:28:54,181
Speaker 5: amount of money, but she declined it. And she pointed

592
00:28:54,222 --> 00:28:57,062
Speaker 5: to a particular TikTok video that you might have seen,

593
00:28:57,262 --> 00:29:00,862
Speaker 5: which is where people post a picture of Hailey Bieber

594
00:29:01,422 --> 00:29:03,822
Speaker 5: and then it has the caption, my boyfriend thinks we

595
00:29:03,902 --> 00:29:04,782
Speaker 5: met by chance.

596
00:29:05,342 --> 00:29:07,862
Speaker 1: Now what that is insinuating.

597
00:29:07,182 --> 00:29:10,982
Speaker 5: Is that Haley Bieber basically stalked Juston Bieber, her husband

598
00:29:11,102 --> 00:29:14,142
Speaker 5: and father of her child, in order to get him

599
00:29:14,182 --> 00:29:17,501
Speaker 5: to date her. And the reason why this is a

600
00:29:17,582 --> 00:29:20,582
Speaker 5: sort of third rail of the Internet is because Bieber

601
00:29:20,902 --> 00:29:24,902
Speaker 5: was in a eight year relationship with Selena Gomez from

602
00:29:24,982 --> 00:29:28,741
Speaker 5: twenty ten to twenty eighteen. People shipped this relationship. It

603
00:29:28,902 --> 00:29:32,022
Speaker 5: was called Jelena. What I also didn't realize is I

604
00:29:32,102 --> 00:29:34,382
Speaker 5: knew Selena Gomes was popular on Instagram, but she has

605
00:29:34,382 --> 00:29:37,462
Speaker 5: four one hundred and twenty one million followers. Hayley, who

606
00:29:37,462 --> 00:29:39,822
Speaker 5: has a very successful beauty brand and is everyone's sty

607
00:29:40,102 --> 00:29:43,542
Speaker 5: like on has just fifty four million, so it's really

608
00:29:43,661 --> 00:29:45,302
Speaker 5: bringing a knife to a gunfight. Here.

609
00:29:46,022 --> 00:29:48,462
Speaker 1: The reason why I think that this has really.

610
00:29:48,661 --> 00:29:50,702
Speaker 5: Struck a chord with a lot of people, in addition

611
00:29:50,782 --> 00:29:54,021
Speaker 5: to the fact that these are very popular celebrities, is

612
00:29:54,062 --> 00:29:59,382
Speaker 5: that it's showing how toxic our information environment has become,

613
00:29:59,902 --> 00:30:04,582
Speaker 5: and how even the most seemingly innocuous celebrity gossip tidbits

614
00:30:04,622 --> 00:30:08,822
Speaker 5: have actually become part of manipulated campaigns to change the

615
00:30:08,862 --> 00:30:10,062
Speaker 5: way we think about things.

616
00:30:10,462 --> 00:30:12,941
Speaker 1: This is called astroturfing. You've probably heard about it.

617
00:30:12,982 --> 00:30:16,742
Speaker 5: When the Blake Lively It Ends with Us situation was happening,

618
00:30:16,822 --> 00:30:19,502
Speaker 5: she claimed an illegal complaint that Justin Baldoni, who was

619
00:30:19,502 --> 00:30:22,142
Speaker 5: her co star in that movie, hired a crisis public

620
00:30:22,182 --> 00:30:25,221
Speaker 5: relations expert to orchestrate a smear campaign against her, and

621
00:30:25,262 --> 00:30:27,661
Speaker 5: then Aberhard came out and said, oh, that was the

622
00:30:27,702 --> 00:30:31,262
Speaker 5: same pr firm that orchestrated a hate campaign against me

623
00:30:31,342 --> 00:30:33,941
Speaker 5: when I was in court with Johnny Depp, Megan.

624
00:30:33,702 --> 00:30:34,742
Speaker 1: Markles and others.

625
00:30:35,182 --> 00:30:39,182
Speaker 5: Perhaps a victim of this same kind of orchestrated campaign. Now,

626
00:30:39,182 --> 00:30:42,142
Speaker 5: what's interesting is to think about who's behind this. In

627
00:30:42,182 --> 00:30:45,822
Speaker 5: the video, Francesca Farrago said that it can be the

628
00:30:45,942 --> 00:30:48,102
Speaker 5: people who own the music that is used on the

629
00:30:48,102 --> 00:30:50,862
Speaker 5: background of these trends who perhaps pay for the music

630
00:30:50,942 --> 00:30:54,102
Speaker 5: to be played, or it can be perhaps pr firms,

631
00:30:54,142 --> 00:30:56,702
Speaker 5: as it was in the Blake Lively case. In this case,

632
00:30:56,742 --> 00:30:58,941
Speaker 5: we don't know who's behind it. We do know that

633
00:30:59,142 --> 00:31:03,062
Speaker 5: Justin has been seemingly shading Selena on social media recently.

634
00:31:02,622 --> 00:31:05,342
Speaker 2: But no offense. But the limit of what I know

635
00:31:05,382 --> 00:31:07,582
Speaker 2: about this is I follow Justin Bieber on Instagram, and

636
00:31:07,661 --> 00:31:09,421
Speaker 2: I'm not sure he's aware of what he's doing on

637
00:31:09,622 --> 00:31:10,582
Speaker 2: social media at the moment.

638
00:31:10,702 --> 00:31:12,862
Speaker 5: No, he may not be, and he has a quite

639
00:31:12,862 --> 00:31:16,502
Speaker 5: well documented and public challenges with mental health that date

640
00:31:16,542 --> 00:31:18,862
Speaker 5: back many years. But look, I do have to say

641
00:31:18,862 --> 00:31:21,782
Speaker 5: that he posted a picture about a week ago which

642
00:31:21,982 --> 00:31:24,701
Speaker 5: was photo of Golm and it had the caption girls

643
00:31:24,742 --> 00:31:26,741
Speaker 5: when they get engaged, and it had Golum with his

644
00:31:26,902 --> 00:31:28,062
Speaker 5: ring from Lord of the Rings.

645
00:31:28,142 --> 00:31:30,862
Speaker 2: Oh, because she.

646
00:31:29,982 --> 00:31:32,902
Speaker 5: Just got engaged to Benny Blanco last December, and I

647
00:31:32,942 --> 00:31:34,462
Speaker 5: think he's spiraling a little.

648
00:31:34,222 --> 00:31:34,902
Speaker 1: Bit because of that.

649
00:31:35,462 --> 00:31:37,822
Speaker 5: Anyway, I'm not so much here to talk about Justin

650
00:31:37,822 --> 00:31:40,542
Speaker 5: Bieber's mental health, though I think that is an interesting

651
00:31:40,582 --> 00:31:43,862
Speaker 5: story as well. Did you have any idea that we

652
00:31:43,862 --> 00:31:47,181
Speaker 5: were being manipulated to quite this extent on topics that

653
00:31:47,262 --> 00:31:50,941
Speaker 5: it seemingly not very important to manipulate people's thoughts on.

654
00:31:51,062 --> 00:31:52,022
Speaker 1: Does it blow your mind?

655
00:31:52,422 --> 00:31:55,262
Speaker 3: It does, because it seems obvious when you go, all right,

656
00:31:55,302 --> 00:32:00,102
Speaker 3: we know that governments that politics have exploited algorithms for

657
00:32:00,182 --> 00:32:01,702
Speaker 3: they aren't like we know that to be true.

658
00:32:01,782 --> 00:32:04,622
Speaker 5: That started in twenty sixteen with the Cambridge Analytica scan.

659
00:32:04,862 --> 00:32:08,462
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. And I read recently that there's no such

660
00:32:08,502 --> 00:32:10,982
Speaker 3: thing as an organic ouggrhithm, and that kind of blew

661
00:32:11,022 --> 00:32:14,342
Speaker 3: my mind because I went, I see that's the argument

662
00:32:14,382 --> 00:32:16,982
Speaker 3: for a lot of the Blake Lively versus justin Baldonni.

663
00:32:17,142 --> 00:32:19,622
Speaker 3: And regardless of where you sit on that, a lot

664
00:32:19,622 --> 00:32:23,022
Speaker 3: of people go no, Organically, everyone hates Blake. And it's like,

665
00:32:23,142 --> 00:32:25,462
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that you, as an individual don't hate

666
00:32:25,462 --> 00:32:29,302
Speaker 3: Blake Lively. I totally believe that you, as an individual

667
00:32:29,622 --> 00:32:32,262
Speaker 3: resent that woman. What I'm trying to say is that

668
00:32:32,542 --> 00:32:35,902
Speaker 3: your facts and the apparatus by which you've made up

669
00:32:35,902 --> 00:32:40,382
Speaker 3: your mind may be slightly confected. And I think that

670
00:32:41,182 --> 00:32:43,782
Speaker 3: the music point is a really interesting one because the

671
00:32:43,862 --> 00:32:47,142
Speaker 3: music industry is not in a good place all the

672
00:32:47,182 --> 00:32:50,022
Speaker 3: metrics by which they used to grow an artist have

673
00:32:50,102 --> 00:32:53,701
Speaker 3: evaporated and now it's just TikTok. And if you have

674
00:32:53,782 --> 00:32:57,382
Speaker 3: a song go viral on TikTok, it changes your life overnight.

675
00:32:57,502 --> 00:33:01,062
Speaker 3: You can be like international stardom. So part of me

676
00:33:01,222 --> 00:33:03,701
Speaker 3: is going clever. If I was working in A and

677
00:33:03,822 --> 00:33:06,382
Speaker 3: R in music, I would be going to big TikTok

678
00:33:06,422 --> 00:33:08,622
Speaker 3: creators and saying, I'll give you a few thousand dollars

679
00:33:08,661 --> 00:33:10,062
Speaker 3: to use this song background.

680
00:33:10,382 --> 00:33:11,102
Speaker 4: But the way that.

681
00:33:11,062 --> 00:33:13,982
Speaker 3: TikTok works is that that song has to be associated

682
00:33:14,022 --> 00:33:17,022
Speaker 3: with a trend. Yeah, and so you need it to

683
00:33:17,142 --> 00:33:21,422
Speaker 3: be like, what's something really relatable or something that someone

684
00:33:21,542 --> 00:33:24,382
Speaker 3: sitting on their couch in any corner of the world

685
00:33:24,902 --> 00:33:28,542
Speaker 3: could then jump on. And there are certain celebrities who

686
00:33:28,542 --> 00:33:31,982
Speaker 3: are lightning rods, and Hailey Bieber has always been one.

687
00:33:32,062 --> 00:33:35,262
Speaker 3: And I think, do we think that Selena Gomez? So

688
00:33:35,382 --> 00:33:38,702
Speaker 3: she was Disney the parasocial relationship between people who grew

689
00:33:38,782 --> 00:33:42,661
Speaker 3: up with Selena Gomez on their screens. Then she dates

690
00:33:42,742 --> 00:33:45,142
Speaker 3: Justin Bieber and they love her. You said how many

691
00:33:45,182 --> 00:33:48,342
Speaker 3: Instagram followers she has one of the most followed celebrities

692
00:33:48,382 --> 00:33:52,302
Speaker 3: in the entire world. She's a singer, actress, lots and

693
00:33:52,342 --> 00:33:57,022
Speaker 3: lots of things, beauty line, beauty line incredibly successful. Then

694
00:33:57,222 --> 00:33:59,862
Speaker 3: Justin Bieber, for whatever reason we're never gonna know, ends

695
00:33:59,942 --> 00:34:03,142
Speaker 3: updating Hailey Bieber, which is not a crime. The thing

696
00:34:03,142 --> 00:34:07,542
Speaker 3: about Hayley is that people don't really have a parasocial

697
00:34:07,582 --> 00:34:08,502
Speaker 3: relationship with her.

698
00:34:08,542 --> 00:34:09,182
Speaker 2: She's a model.

699
00:34:09,542 --> 00:34:09,982
Speaker 4: It's a model.

700
00:34:10,022 --> 00:34:11,262
Speaker 2: She's more of a blank canvas.

701
00:34:11,262 --> 00:34:14,662
Speaker 3: She's a blank canvas. So we can project anything onto

702
00:34:14,661 --> 00:34:17,022
Speaker 3: her angular features that we want. We can just look

703
00:34:17,022 --> 00:34:18,862
Speaker 3: at her and go, yeah, it looks like a bitch,

704
00:34:19,302 --> 00:34:23,502
Speaker 3: because we've never felt like we know her. And so

705
00:34:23,542 --> 00:34:28,622
Speaker 3: there's this seven part documentary, this thing that's come up

706
00:34:28,661 --> 00:34:31,822
Speaker 3: online which is all about the allegation that she stalked

707
00:34:31,902 --> 00:34:35,221
Speaker 3: and whatever Justin Bieber. She was Hailey Baldwin, so she's

708
00:34:35,221 --> 00:34:38,262
Speaker 3: a relation to I think, the niece of Alec Baldwin.

709
00:34:38,741 --> 00:34:40,901
Speaker 3: But she met Justin Bieber when she was very young,

710
00:34:40,902 --> 00:34:43,821
Speaker 3: and there's a photo of them meeting and then there's like, oh,

711
00:34:43,862 --> 00:34:46,941
Speaker 3: she trapped him, and you know, now they're married or whatever,

712
00:34:47,142 --> 00:34:50,741
Speaker 3: they have a baby, now, like let them be. But

713
00:34:50,982 --> 00:34:52,901
Speaker 3: I think that Hailey Biber would be one of the

714
00:34:53,062 --> 00:34:54,862
Speaker 3: most hated women on the internet.

715
00:34:55,102 --> 00:34:58,542
Speaker 2: So your point about how obviously all artists want their

716
00:34:58,582 --> 00:35:01,062
Speaker 2: songs on TikTok because that's the metric of success. Now,

717
00:35:01,342 --> 00:35:03,661
Speaker 2: does it matter if your song is associated with something

718
00:35:03,741 --> 00:35:04,502
Speaker 2: really negative?

719
00:35:04,701 --> 00:35:07,062
Speaker 3: Absolutely not. All it means is that your song's probably

720
00:35:07,102 --> 00:35:07,781
Speaker 3: on steroids.

721
00:35:08,261 --> 00:35:10,702
Speaker 1: So I think your attention to kind of no longer matters.

722
00:35:10,822 --> 00:35:12,781
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter at all, because it's just I've heard

723
00:35:12,822 --> 00:35:14,741
Speaker 3: it and then I'll listen to it and stream it

724
00:35:14,781 --> 00:35:17,701
Speaker 3: on Spotify or whatever what you want is for you know,

725
00:35:17,942 --> 00:35:20,261
Speaker 3: I lay in bed sometimes next to Luca, and I

726
00:35:20,261 --> 00:35:22,542
Speaker 3: hear the same song over and over and over and

727
00:35:22,582 --> 00:35:24,222
Speaker 3: over again, and it becomes an earworm.

728
00:35:24,302 --> 00:35:27,861
Speaker 5: And this is why the ongoing situation in the US

729
00:35:27,942 --> 00:35:29,982
Speaker 5: as to whether TikTok is going to be bound is

730
00:35:30,022 --> 00:35:33,422
Speaker 5: so live because basically what's happening is the US government

731
00:35:33,502 --> 00:35:36,861
Speaker 5: is trying to find a buyer for TikTok, which was

732
00:35:36,902 --> 00:35:39,062
Speaker 5: started by a Chinese company and which is now owned

733
00:35:39,062 --> 00:35:41,701
Speaker 5: by a conglomerate which includes Chinese interests. They want to

734
00:35:41,741 --> 00:35:44,221
Speaker 5: find an American buyer for TikTok, and that way they

735
00:35:44,221 --> 00:35:47,382
Speaker 5: can keep TikTok live in America. Half of Americans use TikTok.

736
00:35:47,382 --> 00:35:50,942
Speaker 5: It's very important, But at issue is the algorithm. So

737
00:35:51,181 --> 00:35:53,942
Speaker 5: if there's an American buyer for TikTok, they're not going

738
00:35:53,982 --> 00:35:59,381
Speaker 5: to get the proprietary algorithm from the Chinese TikTok creators,

739
00:35:59,781 --> 00:36:03,982
Speaker 5: and without the algorithm, TikTok becomes kind of useless.

740
00:36:04,142 --> 00:36:08,582
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the most addictive technology ever created because of

741
00:36:08,582 --> 00:36:11,942
Speaker 3: that algorithm, which is kind of top secret to a degree.

742
00:36:12,462 --> 00:36:15,261
Speaker 2: I've heard that our friend Jeff Bezos might be buying it.

743
00:36:15,462 --> 00:36:17,542
Speaker 2: That's one of the rumors I heard this week. Maybe

744
00:36:17,542 --> 00:36:19,261
Speaker 2: he will shoot it into space and that would be

745
00:36:19,462 --> 00:36:21,221
Speaker 2: with all of our worlds would be better for it.

746
00:36:21,462 --> 00:36:27,301
Speaker 2: But surely there are many great It doesn't make any

747
00:36:27,342 --> 00:36:29,502
Speaker 2: sense what I just said, but I stand by it.

748
00:36:30,181 --> 00:36:33,781
Speaker 2: Surely there are great American brains who could copy this algorithm.

749
00:36:33,261 --> 00:36:35,701
Speaker 1: Now, surely if they haven't done it, I know it's.

750
00:36:35,661 --> 00:36:38,742
Speaker 2: Amazing that it has been so But back to Hailey

751
00:36:38,822 --> 00:36:39,181
Speaker 2: b but.

752
00:36:40,302 --> 00:36:41,662
Speaker 1: Seven part documentary.

753
00:36:41,862 --> 00:36:45,542
Speaker 2: My question is, and I know we had this conversation

754
00:36:45,661 --> 00:36:49,022
Speaker 2: around the Blake Baldoni situation, which has taken many twisted

755
00:36:49,062 --> 00:36:51,781
Speaker 2: turns since we last discussed it. When I was reading

756
00:36:51,822 --> 00:36:53,701
Speaker 2: about this today, you know you can go and read

757
00:36:53,741 --> 00:36:56,622
Speaker 2: the original court documents in the Baldoni Lively case and

758
00:36:56,661 --> 00:36:58,902
Speaker 2: make up your own mind from the source material. But

759
00:36:58,982 --> 00:37:00,821
Speaker 2: who's going to do that? So you can just keep

760
00:37:00,822 --> 00:37:04,341
Speaker 2: scrolling on TikTok as they do. But why does this

761
00:37:04,542 --> 00:37:08,702
Speaker 2: lesson that we keep being taught and be heard Blake Lively,

762
00:37:08,862 --> 00:37:12,222
Speaker 2: Megan Mark like now Hailey b But why does this lesson?

763
00:37:12,221 --> 00:37:14,781
Speaker 2: We keep learning it? And then just like the same

764
00:37:14,781 --> 00:37:17,381
Speaker 2: way our attentions span on TikTok is like minuscule, We're

765
00:37:17,382 --> 00:37:19,461
Speaker 2: just like next thing. Then we just forget. But that's

766
00:37:19,502 --> 00:37:21,742
Speaker 2: because and then it comes back and we go, imagine,

767
00:37:21,781 --> 00:37:24,982
Speaker 2: maybe everybody doesn't really hate Hailey Baber that we're like, that's.

768
00:37:24,781 --> 00:37:26,501
Speaker 1: The power of the algorithm.

769
00:37:26,582 --> 00:37:29,821
Speaker 5: So Jesse said that people say, no, I just personally

770
00:37:29,862 --> 00:37:32,822
Speaker 5: hate Blake Clively. I'm different from all the other people

771
00:37:32,822 --> 00:37:35,741
Speaker 5: who also hate Blake Lively. I think that's why this

772
00:37:35,822 --> 00:37:40,262
Speaker 5: story is so scary to me, because if people's thinking

773
00:37:40,342 --> 00:37:44,861
Speaker 5: can be manipulated this easily about Hailey Bieber, that has

774
00:37:44,902 --> 00:37:48,382
Speaker 5: implications for our politics too. It means that it's really

775
00:37:48,462 --> 00:37:50,701
Speaker 5: easy to get people to change their minds or to

776
00:37:50,902 --> 00:37:53,622
Speaker 5: form an opinion about someone or something that they know

777
00:37:53,741 --> 00:37:54,422
Speaker 5: nothing about.

778
00:37:54,542 --> 00:37:57,102
Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, we've lost all sense of stakes

779
00:37:57,142 --> 00:38:01,102
Speaker 3: and importance. Like people are forensically going through Selena Gome's

780
00:38:01,142 --> 00:38:03,821
Speaker 3: lyrics because they're like, no, she referenced this in this

781
00:38:03,942 --> 00:38:05,781
Speaker 3: song and then she said this, they're the sort of

782
00:38:05,822 --> 00:38:08,422
Speaker 3: easter eggs that people are looking out for.

783
00:38:08,342 --> 00:38:11,342
Speaker 2: And we're also obsessed Selina Gobaz, As far as I

784
00:38:11,382 --> 00:38:14,821
Speaker 2: can see, she's happy, she's engaged to this guy, they've

785
00:38:14,822 --> 00:38:18,782
Speaker 2: got an album, She's living her best life. Hailey Bieber's

786
00:38:18,781 --> 00:38:20,622
Speaker 2: got like, just back off, everybody.

787
00:38:20,661 --> 00:38:21,261
Speaker 1: Why are we so.

788
00:38:21,261 --> 00:38:24,741
Speaker 2: Invested in everybody's relationships being so much worse than they appear.

789
00:38:24,502 --> 00:38:27,661
Speaker 3: On that I what I've found interesting the latest in

790
00:38:27,701 --> 00:38:30,142
Speaker 3: this story is that it looks like Hailey Bieber is

791
00:38:30,261 --> 00:38:33,582
Speaker 3: considering legal action, which people generally don't do for like

792
00:38:33,741 --> 00:38:36,902
Speaker 3: defamation or for these sorts of things. I think the

793
00:38:37,102 --> 00:38:40,142
Speaker 3: more people push back, And I can understand why you

794
00:38:40,342 --> 00:38:44,982
Speaker 3: wouldn't want to, because if you pursue defamation, then they

795
00:38:45,022 --> 00:38:47,901
Speaker 3: search for the truth and things about you might come

796
00:38:47,982 --> 00:38:51,622
Speaker 3: up that aren't necessarily flattering. Like, I completely understand why

797
00:38:51,661 --> 00:38:55,381
Speaker 3: people resist, But her kind of going this is enough.

798
00:38:55,462 --> 00:38:58,062
Speaker 3: The misinformation, the smear campaign against.

799
00:38:57,661 --> 00:38:58,902
Speaker 4: Me is enough.

800
00:38:59,582 --> 00:39:03,181
Speaker 3: Remember actually in the Justin Baldoni Blake Lively thing. Justin

801
00:39:03,221 --> 00:39:06,701
Speaker 3: Baldoni used a picture of Hailey Bieber and said do this,

802
00:39:06,781 --> 00:39:08,462
Speaker 3: Let's do this, this is what we have to do.

803
00:39:08,542 --> 00:39:10,341
Speaker 4: That's how much this is women.

804
00:39:10,582 --> 00:39:13,381
Speaker 2: I just feel like the general misogyny, and I mean

805
00:39:13,542 --> 00:39:17,861
Speaker 2: women's own in termalized misogyny, is just being weaponized to

806
00:39:17,942 --> 00:39:20,622
Speaker 2: an extent that we're just not aware of, Like because

807
00:39:20,822 --> 00:39:23,462
Speaker 2: it's women who love to hate Hailey Bieber, it's women

808
00:39:23,741 --> 00:39:28,102
Speaker 2: who love to hate on Blake Lively. It's so depressing, but.

809
00:39:28,022 --> 00:39:30,102
Speaker 5: It's also a bit of a lesson in how to

810
00:39:30,221 --> 00:39:32,701
Speaker 5: use social media if you are a celebrity, because you asked,

811
00:39:32,741 --> 00:39:35,741
Speaker 5: why do people hate Hailey so much? Holly, and I

812
00:39:35,822 --> 00:39:38,262
Speaker 5: think that part of this is that Selena has always

813
00:39:38,261 --> 00:39:41,982
Speaker 5: been messy on social media. So just quite recently she

814
00:39:42,142 --> 00:39:47,422
Speaker 5: spoke out against Trump's deportations in a tearful story and

815
00:39:47,462 --> 00:39:49,462
Speaker 5: then she pretty much shook it down immediately.

816
00:39:49,542 --> 00:39:50,702
Speaker 1: I mean that was very notable.

817
00:39:50,862 --> 00:39:53,982
Speaker 5: Barely any celebrities has spoken up about what's happening politically

818
00:39:53,982 --> 00:39:56,661
Speaker 5: in the US, but she did. And then previously she's

819
00:39:56,822 --> 00:39:59,782
Speaker 5: made clear that sometimes she thinks Taylor Swift, her longtime friend,

820
00:39:59,781 --> 00:40:02,901
Speaker 5: has sort of excluded her from social gatherings. She's left

821
00:40:02,902 --> 00:40:06,702
Speaker 5: passive aggressive comments on Taylor's Instagram posts to that effect.

822
00:40:07,181 --> 00:40:10,622
Speaker 5: Hailey has a much more controlled persona and it goes

823
00:40:10,661 --> 00:40:14,542
Speaker 5: along with her more kind of Nepo baby patrician look

824
00:40:14,582 --> 00:40:17,741
Speaker 5: and aesthetic, and that's her whole allure is really that

825
00:40:17,822 --> 00:40:21,382
Speaker 5: she's a little bit untouchable and knowable, and she doesn't

826
00:40:21,382 --> 00:40:23,502
Speaker 5: share as much as Selena does. I remember that she

827
00:40:23,542 --> 00:40:26,701
Speaker 5: announced that she and Justin were engaged. She announced on Instagram,

828
00:40:27,022 --> 00:40:28,861
Speaker 5: but she was on the cover of a magazine. Such

829
00:40:28,862 --> 00:40:31,741
Speaker 5: an old school way of sharing that news. So I

830
00:40:31,781 --> 00:40:35,022
Speaker 5: think there's also an issue here about how you create

831
00:40:35,102 --> 00:40:39,382
Speaker 5: parasocial relationships and how you build followings in the Internet age,

832
00:40:39,502 --> 00:40:42,262
Speaker 5: and if you choose not to play that game. Sometimes

833
00:40:42,302 --> 00:40:44,622
Speaker 5: I think it's easier for people to superimpose a narrative

834
00:40:44,661 --> 00:40:44,982
Speaker 5: onto you.

835
00:40:45,781 --> 00:40:47,902
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out louders.

836
00:40:47,902 --> 00:40:50,062
Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for today, but we hope

837
00:40:50,102 --> 00:40:52,142
Speaker 2: you're going to be back with us tomorrow. And thank you,

838
00:40:52,181 --> 00:40:54,582
Speaker 2: of course to Amelia for filling in for mea and

839
00:40:54,622 --> 00:40:57,102
Speaker 2: to our wonderful team for helping us put the show together.

840
00:40:57,382 --> 00:40:59,662
Speaker 2: We will be back in your eas tomorrow.

841
00:40:59,342 --> 00:41:01,741
Speaker 3: And just a little little stroke from us. I know

842
00:41:01,822 --> 00:41:04,022
Speaker 3: this is an audio medium. Some people might have been

843
00:41:04,062 --> 00:41:07,302
Speaker 3: watching it on YouTube, but if you look very closely

844
00:41:07,342 --> 00:41:09,941
Speaker 3: in the background of Holy Shott, you will see her

845
00:41:10,062 --> 00:41:13,062
Speaker 3: brand new book, which is printed and ready to go

846
00:41:13,261 --> 00:41:15,181
Speaker 3: called he would never.

847
00:41:16,582 --> 00:41:19,982
Speaker 2: Holly, first copy I've held in my hands.

848
00:41:19,701 --> 00:41:21,662
Speaker 3: And out loud As can be the first to know, Holly,

849
00:41:21,741 --> 00:41:24,742
Speaker 3: you got one single endorsement for this book.

850
00:41:25,102 --> 00:41:26,022
Speaker 2: I did well.

851
00:41:26,022 --> 00:41:27,861
Speaker 3: Out Louders have heard of the person who endorsed it.

852
00:41:28,622 --> 00:41:31,102
Speaker 2: I don't know. Have you heard of learn Murriarty?

853
00:41:32,502 --> 00:41:33,222
Speaker 4: Good Ride?

854
00:41:33,862 --> 00:41:35,022
Speaker 1: When can we read it?

855
00:41:35,661 --> 00:41:38,181
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, this feels so weird to have it

856
00:41:38,221 --> 00:41:40,982
Speaker 2: in my hands. It is out on April the twenty ninth.

857
00:41:41,142 --> 00:41:45,262
Speaker 3: It's April now days, twenty days.

858
00:41:45,422 --> 00:41:46,221
Speaker 4: He would never.

859
00:41:46,422 --> 00:41:48,341
Speaker 2: It's hard to explain, but like you work on these

860
00:41:48,382 --> 00:41:50,142
Speaker 2: things for such a long time, and you read it

861
00:41:50,181 --> 00:41:51,261
Speaker 2: and you read it and you read it, and it

862
00:41:51,302 --> 00:41:53,582
Speaker 2: goes through all this and then when you finally get

863
00:41:53,661 --> 00:41:57,902
Speaker 2: a copy, like it's surreal, so strange. I can't tell you. So,

864
00:41:58,062 --> 00:41:58,782
Speaker 2: I'm so happy.

865
00:41:59,062 --> 00:42:00,142
Speaker 4: And an extra thing.

866
00:42:00,342 --> 00:42:03,181
Speaker 3: If you've always wanted to own a Hollywayen drawing, you

867
00:42:03,181 --> 00:42:05,261
Speaker 3: should also get this book because there's a page where

868
00:42:05,261 --> 00:42:08,381
Speaker 3: Holly did a map. Holly's Map Skills is known for them.

869
00:42:08,462 --> 00:42:10,341
Speaker 2: This map I drew it. It was pinned up on

870
00:42:10,422 --> 00:42:12,901
Speaker 2: my board when I was writing it, and so when

871
00:42:12,942 --> 00:42:14,582
Speaker 2: I said I think we should put a map in there,

872
00:42:14,661 --> 00:42:16,102
Speaker 2: they said, we'll just send us yours.

873
00:42:18,062 --> 00:42:20,941
Speaker 3: So it is so brilliant Book of the year. Can't

874
00:42:20,942 --> 00:42:22,661
Speaker 3: wait for it, louders to read. It is going to

875
00:42:22,661 --> 00:42:25,062
Speaker 3: start a lot of conversations. You can pre order it now.

876
00:42:25,062 --> 00:42:26,502
Speaker 3: There is a link in our show notes.

877
00:42:26,502 --> 00:42:27,182
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jesse.

878
00:42:28,022 --> 00:42:30,982
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and mea subscribers listening. If

879
00:42:30,982 --> 00:42:32,942
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,

880
00:42:33,221 --> 00:42:36,102
Speaker 3: subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to

881
00:42:36,181 --> 00:42:38,622
Speaker 3: do so. There's a link in the episode description.