1 00:00:08,234 --> 00:00:11,474 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:18,714 --> 00:00:21,593 Speaker 2: From Mamma Mia. Welcome to this bill, your daily pop 3 00:00:21,634 --> 00:00:24,433 Speaker 2: culture Fixed. I'm Laura Brodney and I'm Cassenni lu Kicch 4 00:00:24,674 --> 00:00:27,354 Speaker 2: and coming up on the show today, Scarlett Johansen has 5 00:00:27,434 --> 00:00:30,314 Speaker 2: revisited one of her biggest controversies and has brought that 6 00:00:30,354 --> 00:00:32,833 Speaker 2: back into the headline. She's not backing down on it, 7 00:00:32,874 --> 00:00:34,153 Speaker 2: so we're going to get into that and what the 8 00:00:34,193 --> 00:00:36,994 Speaker 2: fallout has been for her. And Ed Sharon has some 9 00:00:37,074 --> 00:00:39,593 Speaker 2: new music out and he's a notoriously private star, so 10 00:00:39,634 --> 00:00:41,793 Speaker 2: it's really interesting that he's given us a little bit 11 00:00:41,793 --> 00:00:44,873 Speaker 2: of insight into his marriage and his private life in 12 00:00:44,954 --> 00:00:46,994 Speaker 2: quite a dramatic way. So I actually have a special 13 00:00:47,034 --> 00:00:49,313 Speaker 2: guest coming on to help us decipher all that through 14 00:00:49,314 --> 00:00:53,274 Speaker 2: a musical lens. But first, some interesting news this morning. 15 00:00:53,114 --> 00:00:56,114 Speaker 1: Some musical news which is great for both of us. 16 00:00:56,354 --> 00:00:59,353 Speaker 1: Whitney Levitt, who was a semi finalist on Dancing with 17 00:00:59,394 --> 00:01:03,914 Speaker 1: the Stars and a star on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, 18 00:01:04,434 --> 00:01:07,074 Speaker 1: is heading to Broadway in the role of Roxy Heart. 19 00:01:07,114 --> 00:01:15,914 Speaker 1: But in Chicago, name on everybody's lips is gone a Roxy. 20 00:01:16,914 --> 00:01:19,114 Speaker 2: This is quite the redemption arc for her. I think 21 00:01:19,234 --> 00:01:21,314 Speaker 2: was really the feeling this morning when this news broke. 22 00:01:21,394 --> 00:01:23,434 Speaker 2: It was something like people thought it was coming. They'd 23 00:01:23,434 --> 00:01:25,834 Speaker 2: been whispers. But it's kind of like when everyone thought 24 00:01:25,954 --> 00:01:28,274 Speaker 2: Leah Michelle was going into the role of funny girl, 25 00:01:28,274 --> 00:01:30,514 Speaker 2: you like, yeah, that would be great for the narrative 26 00:01:30,634 --> 00:01:32,634 Speaker 2: arc that we're all talking about, but it's not gonna happen. 27 00:01:32,674 --> 00:01:35,114 Speaker 2: And then it did. So Whitney Levitt not someone I 28 00:01:35,194 --> 00:01:38,034 Speaker 2: was super across, I've got to say, until Dancing the Stars, 29 00:01:38,154 --> 00:01:40,874 Speaker 2: the US version recently became this huge thing. I knew 30 00:01:40,994 --> 00:01:43,034 Speaker 2: she was from the show. So she was part of 31 00:01:43,114 --> 00:01:45,994 Speaker 2: the Mumtalk group. I feel like you need a thesis 32 00:01:46,034 --> 00:01:49,034 Speaker 2: in like TikTok history to sort of be across them. 33 00:01:49,114 --> 00:01:52,234 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm weirdly across this for some reason. It 34 00:01:52,314 --> 00:01:56,554 Speaker 1: was on my all of last year. So Whitney Levitt 35 00:01:56,554 --> 00:01:59,754 Speaker 1: was a part of this Mormon Mumtalk group in Utah 36 00:01:59,834 --> 00:02:00,834 Speaker 1: in the States. 37 00:02:00,474 --> 00:02:03,554 Speaker 2: And they sat together right by doing the dancers and 38 00:02:03,554 --> 00:02:05,594 Speaker 2: building a community and having this and they all had 39 00:02:05,714 --> 00:02:06,754 Speaker 2: huge following numbers. 40 00:02:06,874 --> 00:02:09,154 Speaker 1: Yes, So the reason why Whitney got so much flat 41 00:02:09,554 --> 00:02:11,714 Speaker 1: was one of the dances she did. She was doing 42 00:02:11,794 --> 00:02:16,634 Speaker 1: a TikTok trend while her newborn son was on life 43 00:02:16,674 --> 00:02:21,114 Speaker 1: support in the hospital and she was like doing a 44 00:02:21,114 --> 00:02:23,154 Speaker 1: full TikTok dance, being like, I'm really worried about him, 45 00:02:23,194 --> 00:02:26,874 Speaker 1: and people were so flawed by the duxtaposition of like 46 00:02:26,914 --> 00:02:29,354 Speaker 1: someone doing a TikTok dance and something put series like 47 00:02:29,354 --> 00:02:32,234 Speaker 1: your kids being sick. So that was kind of where 48 00:02:32,274 --> 00:02:34,274 Speaker 1: a lot of people found out about her. She copped 49 00:02:34,314 --> 00:02:38,874 Speaker 1: it hard for that. Yes, then there was the whole 50 00:02:39,114 --> 00:02:41,114 Speaker 1: Swinger's scandal. 51 00:02:40,754 --> 00:02:43,514 Speaker 2: And started right because I think that was the thing 52 00:02:43,554 --> 00:02:46,114 Speaker 2: on TikTok. And when Hulu announced they were making a 53 00:02:46,114 --> 00:02:48,474 Speaker 2: reality show, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, which is 54 00:02:48,514 --> 00:02:50,954 Speaker 2: about this group, that was kind of the anchor drama 55 00:02:50,994 --> 00:02:51,754 Speaker 2: for the first season. 56 00:02:51,954 --> 00:02:55,114 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's this kind of really interesting pocket of 57 00:02:55,154 --> 00:02:57,954 Speaker 1: culture in Salt Lake City of these Mormon moms. Like so, 58 00:02:57,994 --> 00:03:01,073 Speaker 1: Mormons aren't allowed to drink alcohol or have coffee or anything. 59 00:03:01,154 --> 00:03:03,074 Speaker 1: So the thing that they kind of the work around 60 00:03:03,234 --> 00:03:05,874 Speaker 1: is they drink soda leaders of it. And there's this 61 00:03:05,954 --> 00:03:10,754 Speaker 1: big chain restaurant, Swig, and in Utah, the lines to 62 00:03:10,794 --> 00:03:13,754 Speaker 1: get a swig in the morning are longer than any 63 00:03:13,834 --> 00:03:15,874 Speaker 1: of the other lines. They have like one or two Starbucks. 64 00:03:15,914 --> 00:03:17,674 Speaker 1: There there's never a line at the Starbucks, but there's 65 00:03:17,714 --> 00:03:20,994 Speaker 1: always a massive line at Swig. They're obsessed with their sodas. 66 00:03:21,274 --> 00:03:23,994 Speaker 1: She was cast on Dancing with the Stars of this year, 67 00:03:24,674 --> 00:03:26,754 Speaker 1: and part of the reason she was getting this villain 68 00:03:26,874 --> 00:03:29,514 Speaker 1: edit is on The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives was 69 00:03:29,554 --> 00:03:32,953 Speaker 1: because she left the season and then came back part 70 00:03:32,994 --> 00:03:33,554 Speaker 1: way through. 71 00:03:33,794 --> 00:03:35,314 Speaker 2: That was the whole thing of like, I'm going to 72 00:03:35,314 --> 00:03:37,714 Speaker 2: start my own mum talk and like Taylor Frankie Paul 73 00:03:37,754 --> 00:03:39,514 Speaker 2: and who's the leader and stuff like good luck. 74 00:03:39,754 --> 00:03:42,714 Speaker 1: So the reason she came back, and she's admitted this, 75 00:03:42,954 --> 00:03:44,594 Speaker 1: was because she wanted to be cast on Dancing with 76 00:03:44,634 --> 00:03:48,034 Speaker 1: the Stars to further her career, which quite frankly, I 77 00:03:48,114 --> 00:03:51,474 Speaker 1: kind of respect because at least she's being honest about it. 78 00:03:52,114 --> 00:03:54,194 Speaker 1: So that's kind of a little bit of the backstory 79 00:03:54,354 --> 00:03:54,994 Speaker 1: with Whitney. 80 00:03:55,074 --> 00:03:56,834 Speaker 2: Yeah, so when she came on to Dance with the Stars, 81 00:03:56,874 --> 00:03:59,394 Speaker 2: she was always seen as the villain. People didn't like her, 82 00:03:59,474 --> 00:04:01,514 Speaker 2: people found her annoying, and I think she had like 83 00:04:01,554 --> 00:04:03,634 Speaker 2: a bit of a fan base from her own followers, 84 00:04:03,714 --> 00:04:06,634 Speaker 2: but she was very much introduced Dancing with Stars as 85 00:04:06,674 --> 00:04:08,034 Speaker 2: this kind of villain, and I think a lot of 86 00:04:08,034 --> 00:04:10,474 Speaker 2: people expected her to be voted off quite quickly or 87 00:04:10,514 --> 00:04:12,794 Speaker 2: for people to really turn against her. Unfortunately, that was 88 00:04:12,834 --> 00:04:15,474 Speaker 2: more of something that happened to Ilaria Baldwin. I mean, 89 00:04:15,474 --> 00:04:17,553 Speaker 2: Whitney still had her haters, but as they went along 90 00:04:17,594 --> 00:04:19,433 Speaker 2: each week in the dances, and she was partner with 91 00:04:19,474 --> 00:04:21,914 Speaker 2: Mark Ballas, who has been on the show for decades 92 00:04:21,954 --> 00:04:23,834 Speaker 2: but has taken time off over the years, so it 93 00:04:23,914 --> 00:04:25,753 Speaker 2: was a big deal that he was coming back dancing 94 00:04:25,753 --> 00:04:28,313 Speaker 2: with Whitney. And then every episode of Dancing with the 95 00:04:28,313 --> 00:04:31,153 Speaker 2: Stars has a different theme and each one people just 96 00:04:31,154 --> 00:04:33,794 Speaker 2: started to love her more and more one because she 97 00:04:33,873 --> 00:04:36,713 Speaker 2: was a great dancer. But that was the controversy as well. 98 00:04:36,794 --> 00:04:40,553 Speaker 1: So she actually studied dance. She started modern neds at BYU, 99 00:04:40,594 --> 00:04:45,153 Speaker 1: which is Brigham Young University in Utah, and she studied dance. 100 00:04:45,154 --> 00:04:46,914 Speaker 1: So people thought it was kind of unfair because she 101 00:04:47,113 --> 00:04:52,034 Speaker 1: wasn't really a non professional. Yeah, but she's an amazing dancer. 102 00:04:52,234 --> 00:04:54,513 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's like I did more contemporary dance. She's like 103 00:04:54,513 --> 00:04:56,954 Speaker 2: and that's like, you know, waving your arms around and 104 00:04:56,993 --> 00:04:59,514 Speaker 2: like knowing how to position your body in a lyrical way. 105 00:04:59,553 --> 00:05:02,474 Speaker 2: And she's like dancing with a partner and doing ballroom 106 00:05:02,594 --> 00:05:04,993 Speaker 2: is so wildly different, which I kind of get. The 107 00:05:05,034 --> 00:05:06,514 Speaker 2: other thing is that Dancing with the Stars is not 108 00:05:06,553 --> 00:05:10,034 Speaker 2: a dancing show. Like if it was bless His Sweetheart, 109 00:05:10,234 --> 00:05:12,513 Speaker 2: if it was Robert Irwin, wouldn't have won because there 110 00:05:12,553 --> 00:05:15,194 Speaker 2: were much And that's the same every season. Like every season, 111 00:05:15,274 --> 00:05:17,754 Speaker 2: there's people who are great dancers and people who were 112 00:05:17,794 --> 00:05:20,193 Speaker 2: just really loved because it's a reality show. But he 113 00:05:20,393 --> 00:05:23,714 Speaker 2: wasn't bad, but he just wasn't the best dancer. 114 00:05:23,914 --> 00:05:26,194 Speaker 1: Yeah, So alex Ol obviously was runner up. She was 115 00:05:26,234 --> 00:05:29,594 Speaker 1: also very surprisingly that she was excellent. But Whitney she 116 00:05:29,753 --> 00:05:33,433 Speaker 1: got kicked off and everybody basically said, she's going to 117 00:05:33,474 --> 00:05:36,754 Speaker 1: go into Chicago and lo and behold. We found out 118 00:05:36,834 --> 00:05:39,594 Speaker 1: yesterday that she is going to be in Chicago as 119 00:05:39,674 --> 00:05:43,634 Speaker 1: roxy Heart. Now, Chicago is really well known for its 120 00:05:43,633 --> 00:05:48,073 Speaker 1: stunt casting. They have had so many different celebrities, particularly 121 00:05:48,113 --> 00:05:51,433 Speaker 1: in the role of roxy Heart. There's been like Erica Jane, 122 00:05:51,553 --> 00:05:56,234 Speaker 1: Pamela Anderson, Brandy did it one year. It's really really 123 00:05:56,274 --> 00:05:59,513 Speaker 1: common for this particular role to be stunt cast. Chicago's 124 00:05:59,553 --> 00:06:02,273 Speaker 1: like the longest running American musical of all time. It's 125 00:06:02,313 --> 00:06:05,034 Speaker 1: been on stage for over twenty nine years. I think 126 00:06:05,034 --> 00:06:07,674 Speaker 1: it's twenty nine years this year. And yeah, there's a 127 00:06:07,714 --> 00:06:11,234 Speaker 1: reason why Roxy is this stunt roll because it's a 128 00:06:11,433 --> 00:06:14,353 Speaker 1: little bit less technical than all the other roles. 129 00:06:14,794 --> 00:06:16,954 Speaker 2: Vocally, yeah, I know that's always a thing of like 130 00:06:17,073 --> 00:06:19,873 Speaker 2: Roxy's the showy one that you can push someone into 131 00:06:20,154 --> 00:06:22,313 Speaker 2: and Velma is meant to be the one with the 132 00:06:22,313 --> 00:06:25,034 Speaker 2: real vocal power, which I guess is true. Also, there's 133 00:06:25,034 --> 00:06:27,274 Speaker 2: this whole history of reality stars who are either having 134 00:06:27,313 --> 00:06:29,713 Speaker 2: redemption or having a moment like Ariana Maddix did it 135 00:06:29,794 --> 00:06:32,394 Speaker 2: up to the whole scandal all thing, and you can 136 00:06:32,393 --> 00:06:34,674 Speaker 2: see that Whitney was like really gunning for it behind 137 00:06:34,714 --> 00:06:36,593 Speaker 2: the scenes, and it's something that she talked about on 138 00:06:36,674 --> 00:06:38,873 Speaker 2: Call Her Daddy because we kind of felt it here 139 00:06:38,914 --> 00:06:40,794 Speaker 2: in Australia when she was voted off, just because I 140 00:06:40,794 --> 00:06:43,513 Speaker 2: think people watching the show that it seemed like this 141 00:06:43,633 --> 00:06:46,593 Speaker 2: huge disappointment and it seemed like people thought Whitney was 142 00:06:46,594 --> 00:06:49,193 Speaker 2: gonna win Dancing the Stars because she'd had this redemption 143 00:06:49,313 --> 00:06:51,514 Speaker 2: arc of being this incredible dancer and people who thought 144 00:06:51,513 --> 00:06:54,354 Speaker 2: they hated her from the show when they were watching her. 145 00:06:54,474 --> 00:06:56,354 Speaker 2: Because most of Dancing with the Stars is not just 146 00:06:56,393 --> 00:06:59,393 Speaker 2: the performance it's all the little packages behind the scenes 147 00:06:59,393 --> 00:07:01,313 Speaker 2: of people's like family and friends, or like in the 148 00:07:01,313 --> 00:07:03,714 Speaker 2: rehearsal room with them and where they process all their 149 00:07:03,753 --> 00:07:06,633 Speaker 2: trauma and stuff, and so a lot of people all 150 00:07:06,674 --> 00:07:09,033 Speaker 2: of a sudden change their minds about her. And so 151 00:07:09,234 --> 00:07:11,474 Speaker 2: when it looked like she was gonna win, that was 152 00:07:11,554 --> 00:07:13,314 Speaker 2: quite a big deal. And when she was voted out, 153 00:07:13,354 --> 00:07:15,554 Speaker 2: it felt very like she framed it when she want 154 00:07:15,594 --> 00:07:17,194 Speaker 2: to call her daddy that she felt like there had 155 00:07:17,234 --> 00:07:19,434 Speaker 2: been almost like a campaign of hate against her, like 156 00:07:19,434 --> 00:07:21,994 Speaker 2: similar to what Ilaria Balbine had said that people had 157 00:07:22,034 --> 00:07:24,194 Speaker 2: turned against her and voted her out, But she said 158 00:07:24,594 --> 00:07:26,634 Speaker 2: she was trying to get a Broadway role, that was 159 00:07:26,634 --> 00:07:28,354 Speaker 2: her dream. She's trying to book a movie role. I 160 00:07:28,354 --> 00:07:30,393 Speaker 2: think she has booked a like a part of movie. 161 00:07:30,434 --> 00:07:33,354 Speaker 2: So it's interesting to see someone make the jump from 162 00:07:33,393 --> 00:07:35,994 Speaker 2: like hated reality star who everyone kind of wrote off 163 00:07:36,074 --> 00:07:38,354 Speaker 2: to now being seen as like, like, I know, Chicago's 164 00:07:38,354 --> 00:07:40,514 Speaker 2: stunt casting, and still she was just still. 165 00:07:40,314 --> 00:07:41,874 Speaker 1: A big deal. I'm not taking that away from her. 166 00:07:42,393 --> 00:07:45,153 Speaker 2: They only to do that stunt casting if they think 167 00:07:45,234 --> 00:07:48,114 Speaker 2: that that person has a big enough drawer that people 168 00:07:48,154 --> 00:07:50,754 Speaker 2: will turn up and support them. Because That's the whole 169 00:07:50,754 --> 00:07:53,634 Speaker 2: thing with actresses talk about getting that Roxy Heart roll 170 00:07:53,714 --> 00:07:57,274 Speaker 2: in this particular Broadway setup is that it's whoever's name 171 00:07:57,354 --> 00:07:59,314 Speaker 2: is above in the lights is like that's the big 172 00:07:59,393 --> 00:08:02,034 Speaker 2: draw card. And so the only reason they've cast her 173 00:08:02,114 --> 00:08:03,834 Speaker 2: is they've seen the swell of support and they're like, 174 00:08:03,834 --> 00:08:06,554 Speaker 2: people will buy tickets to see Whitney Leavitt after her 175 00:08:06,554 --> 00:08:08,994 Speaker 2: whole Mumtop Mormon Lives drama. 176 00:08:09,194 --> 00:08:11,674 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean we know that the famous 177 00:08:11,674 --> 00:08:13,794 Speaker 1: song Roxy Heart, the name on everybody's lips. You know, 178 00:08:13,834 --> 00:08:15,594 Speaker 1: I'm going to set my name up in lights. It 179 00:08:15,634 --> 00:08:19,114 Speaker 1: plays in really really well to that. I think she's 180 00:08:19,194 --> 00:08:22,714 Speaker 1: very good. I think she's very talented. Bizarre, bizarre backstory 181 00:08:22,794 --> 00:08:25,394 Speaker 1: and dancing. But you know what is interesting, I think 182 00:08:25,434 --> 00:08:27,114 Speaker 1: part of the reason as well that Dancing with the 183 00:08:27,114 --> 00:08:30,074 Speaker 1: Stars has hit us more here than in previous years 184 00:08:30,354 --> 00:08:32,754 Speaker 1: is that we're seeing it on TikTok. Now it's such 185 00:08:32,754 --> 00:08:36,713 Speaker 1: a perfect show for like that TikTok or algorithm, you know. Yeah, anyway, 186 00:08:36,994 --> 00:08:39,194 Speaker 1: she'll be doing a six week run if you want 187 00:08:39,234 --> 00:08:42,834 Speaker 1: to go see her. So from February second, twenty twenty six, 188 00:08:42,914 --> 00:08:45,514 Speaker 1: at the Ambassador Theater in New York, City Naa. 189 00:08:46,754 --> 00:08:49,074 Speaker 2: So Scarlet Johnson has given a new interview to the 190 00:08:49,114 --> 00:08:52,794 Speaker 2: Telegraph because she has her directorial debut coming out soon, 191 00:08:52,834 --> 00:08:55,234 Speaker 2: so she's hot on the press trail for that. And 192 00:08:55,314 --> 00:08:57,874 Speaker 2: what's interesting at this interview with the Telegraph is that 193 00:08:57,914 --> 00:09:01,114 Speaker 2: they asked her about one of her biggest scandals. And 194 00:09:01,354 --> 00:09:03,434 Speaker 2: it's something that she, I guess could have shied away 195 00:09:03,474 --> 00:09:05,754 Speaker 2: from or could have kind of just given a very 196 00:09:05,754 --> 00:09:09,274 Speaker 2: throwaway comment and really diffuse the situation, but she chose 197 00:09:09,314 --> 00:09:11,434 Speaker 2: to really double down. And so I'm sure people are 198 00:09:11,434 --> 00:09:13,114 Speaker 2: seeing the headlines around today and just to give you 199 00:09:13,114 --> 00:09:15,754 Speaker 2: a little backstory about what that's all about. So she 200 00:09:15,914 --> 00:09:18,233 Speaker 2: was asked about an interview that she did in twenty 201 00:09:18,354 --> 00:09:21,274 Speaker 2: nineteen with the Hollywood Reporter when she was asked about 202 00:09:21,274 --> 00:09:24,114 Speaker 2: working with Woody Allen, who she's worked with many times 203 00:09:24,114 --> 00:09:27,074 Speaker 2: on many different movies, and they asked her if she 204 00:09:27,274 --> 00:09:29,834 Speaker 2: stood by her works this is back in twenty nineteen, 205 00:09:30,314 --> 00:09:33,234 Speaker 2: and why she chose to work with him, and she said, 206 00:09:33,314 --> 00:09:35,434 Speaker 2: I love Woody, I believe him, and I would work 207 00:09:35,474 --> 00:09:38,594 Speaker 2: with him anytime. She then went on to say in 208 00:09:38,634 --> 00:09:40,954 Speaker 2: the same interview, I see Woody whenever I can, and 209 00:09:40,994 --> 00:09:43,394 Speaker 2: I have a lot of conversations with him about it. 210 00:09:43,594 --> 00:09:45,754 Speaker 2: I've been very direct with him, and he's very direct 211 00:09:45,834 --> 00:09:48,874 Speaker 2: with me. He maintains his innocence and I believe him. 212 00:09:49,474 --> 00:09:52,834 Speaker 2: So when she's talking about innocence there, she's talking about 213 00:09:52,994 --> 00:09:56,754 Speaker 2: the case where Woody Allen, if any wasn't across hugely 214 00:09:56,834 --> 00:10:00,954 Speaker 2: influential director, an actor, but mostly a filmmaker, and many 215 00:10:00,994 --> 00:10:04,674 Speaker 2: many decades ago, was in a relationship with actress Mia Farrow, 216 00:10:05,274 --> 00:10:07,954 Speaker 2: and there were allegations that came out during when their 217 00:10:07,994 --> 00:10:11,994 Speaker 2: relationship was happening that he had sexually assaulted Dylan Farrow, 218 00:10:12,034 --> 00:10:15,434 Speaker 2: who is Mia Farrow's adopted daughter. This went through a 219 00:10:15,554 --> 00:10:18,914 Speaker 2: huge court case, there was many different interviews. Mia Farrow 220 00:10:19,114 --> 00:10:22,594 Speaker 2: and her family and her team have always stayed really 221 00:10:22,634 --> 00:10:25,834 Speaker 2: strong to this story. Dylan Farrow herself has given many 222 00:10:25,874 --> 00:10:29,514 Speaker 2: interviews written about it a lot, really claiming all the 223 00:10:29,554 --> 00:10:31,714 Speaker 2: things that she alleges that Woody Allan did to her. 224 00:10:32,074 --> 00:10:34,754 Speaker 2: Woody Allen, at the same time, has always denied any 225 00:10:34,794 --> 00:10:38,194 Speaker 2: of these things happened. He and Mia also broke up 226 00:10:38,434 --> 00:10:41,514 Speaker 2: when Mia Farah discovered naked photos of one of her 227 00:10:41,514 --> 00:10:45,394 Speaker 2: other adopted daughters, Sunyi, in Woody Allen's possession and he 228 00:10:45,594 --> 00:10:47,634 Speaker 2: was decades older than her and they are still in 229 00:10:47,674 --> 00:10:51,314 Speaker 2: a relationship to this day. So essentially he married his stepdaughter. 230 00:10:51,634 --> 00:10:53,474 Speaker 1: Yeah, and part of the reason this was sort of 231 00:10:53,474 --> 00:10:58,954 Speaker 1: reignited was around the Me Too movement back in twenty seventeen. 232 00:10:59,474 --> 00:11:02,954 Speaker 1: So Ronan Farrow, which is Mia Pharaoh's son, is also 233 00:11:02,994 --> 00:11:05,154 Speaker 1: a journalist and he was one of the journalists who 234 00:11:05,154 --> 00:11:09,354 Speaker 1: broke the me too stories and has been a very 235 00:11:09,354 --> 00:11:13,314 Speaker 1: big advocate for the Me Too movement and also a 236 00:11:13,354 --> 00:11:18,474 Speaker 1: big voice against his father, I guess against Woody Allen. 237 00:11:18,954 --> 00:11:23,154 Speaker 1: So in twenty nineteen, two years after Me Too, we've 238 00:11:23,194 --> 00:11:24,594 Speaker 1: got the Times Up. Do you remember when all the 239 00:11:24,594 --> 00:11:27,874 Speaker 1: celebrities going to the Oscars and Golden Globes and stuff 240 00:11:27,994 --> 00:11:31,954 Speaker 1: with times Up badgers encouraging people to stand up against 241 00:11:31,954 --> 00:11:36,114 Speaker 1: abuse in Hollywood? Scarlett Johansson had called out James Franco 242 00:11:36,314 --> 00:11:39,074 Speaker 1: for some of the allegations that were made against him. 243 00:11:39,474 --> 00:11:43,234 Speaker 1: Ronenvaro called out Scarlett Johansson for being a hypocrite. He wrote, 244 00:11:43,594 --> 00:11:46,394 Speaker 1: because if we've learned anything from the past two years, 245 00:11:46,434 --> 00:11:49,474 Speaker 1: it's that you definitely should believe male predators who maintain 246 00:11:49,514 --> 00:11:52,994 Speaker 1: their innocence without question. Scarlett has a long way to 247 00:11:53,034 --> 00:11:56,474 Speaker 1: go in understanding the issues she claims to champion. He's 248 00:11:56,474 --> 00:12:00,434 Speaker 1: publicly called her out. She stayed pretty strong on this again, 249 00:12:00,874 --> 00:12:05,114 Speaker 1: doubling down in this most recent interview. Which is why 250 00:12:05,114 --> 00:12:07,274 Speaker 1: people are a little bit confused by it, because is 251 00:12:07,274 --> 00:12:09,834 Speaker 1: it's something that a lot of celebrities in Hollywood, whether 252 00:12:09,834 --> 00:12:12,994 Speaker 1: they've worked with him or not, a very very vocal 253 00:12:13,074 --> 00:12:14,114 Speaker 1: about yes so. 254 00:12:14,394 --> 00:12:16,874 Speaker 2: And I think an important caveat around the whole Woody 255 00:12:16,874 --> 00:12:19,394 Speaker 2: Allen's story and the accusations that have come from Dylan 256 00:12:19,474 --> 00:12:22,114 Speaker 2: Farah and Mere Pharaoh and their wider family is that 257 00:12:22,194 --> 00:12:24,994 Speaker 2: when a lot of people see these storylines around Woody 258 00:12:24,994 --> 00:12:27,114 Speaker 2: Allen or these headlines, they say, oh, but he was 259 00:12:27,114 --> 00:12:30,674 Speaker 2: found innocent, and it's not true. He wasn't actually found innocent. 260 00:12:30,754 --> 00:12:34,594 Speaker 2: There just wasn't enough evidence for the court case to proceed, 261 00:12:34,714 --> 00:12:37,994 Speaker 2: which with stories like this is often the case. It's 262 00:12:38,154 --> 00:12:40,354 Speaker 2: so hard to get someone like this to court because 263 00:12:40,594 --> 00:12:42,634 Speaker 2: you have to have so much evidence and obviously a 264 00:12:42,634 --> 00:12:45,754 Speaker 2: lot of these allegations that come with sexual assault, and 265 00:12:45,794 --> 00:12:49,834 Speaker 2: with these sorts of stories like it is often witness testimony, 266 00:12:50,114 --> 00:12:52,994 Speaker 2: and it's even harder to get a conviction. That's like 267 00:12:53,034 --> 00:12:56,154 Speaker 2: this whole thing when they talk about people lying, it's like, well, 268 00:12:56,314 --> 00:12:58,194 Speaker 2: the stats show us that, like, it's not so much 269 00:12:58,314 --> 00:13:01,474 Speaker 2: lying all that people are found innocent. It's more so 270 00:13:01,514 --> 00:13:03,274 Speaker 2: that it's such a hard thing to get through a 271 00:13:03,274 --> 00:13:05,074 Speaker 2: court case. So I think it's an important caveat that 272 00:13:05,354 --> 00:13:07,594 Speaker 2: he didn't go through a court case and was found innocent. 273 00:13:07,714 --> 00:13:09,154 Speaker 1: And we also need to remember this is back in 274 00:13:09,234 --> 00:13:12,834 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two that these allegations were made and it 275 00:13:12,914 --> 00:13:17,074 Speaker 1: was a child Protective Services inquiry initially, so there's a 276 00:13:17,074 --> 00:13:20,234 Speaker 1: couple of issues around that and complexities around that. So 277 00:13:20,314 --> 00:13:21,594 Speaker 1: that's kind of the clux of it. 278 00:13:21,954 --> 00:13:24,274 Speaker 2: And so that became a big part of this interview 279 00:13:24,274 --> 00:13:27,434 Speaker 2: with Scarlett Johansson in The Telegraph because she has directed 280 00:13:27,434 --> 00:13:29,834 Speaker 2: her first movie, Ellen All the Great June Scubba is 281 00:13:29,834 --> 00:13:32,114 Speaker 2: the lead of it. It's something that Scarlet's really been 282 00:13:32,194 --> 00:13:35,394 Speaker 2: championing behind the scenes for many years about wanting to 283 00:13:35,434 --> 00:13:37,314 Speaker 2: make this movie and wanting to move more into being 284 00:13:37,354 --> 00:13:40,034 Speaker 2: a director and champion certain stories, and that's why she's 285 00:13:40,034 --> 00:13:42,234 Speaker 2: really on the press tour for it. And so in 286 00:13:42,274 --> 00:13:44,714 Speaker 2: this interview she was asked about working with Woody Allen. 287 00:13:44,834 --> 00:13:46,634 Speaker 2: So she worked with him on match Point, which came 288 00:13:46,634 --> 00:13:49,154 Speaker 2: out in two thousand and five, Scoop which came out 289 00:13:49,154 --> 00:13:52,434 Speaker 2: in two thousand and six, and then Vicki Christina Barcelona 290 00:13:52,474 --> 00:13:55,674 Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine. These movies were all critically acclaimed, 291 00:13:55,674 --> 00:14:00,034 Speaker 2: but Vicky Christina Barcelona in particular Penelope Cruise one in Oscar. 292 00:14:00,434 --> 00:14:02,674 Speaker 2: It was nominated for so many things. It was really 293 00:14:02,714 --> 00:14:05,154 Speaker 2: the scene as like this turning point of really cementing 294 00:14:05,194 --> 00:14:08,674 Speaker 2: Scarlett Johanson as a dramatic actress. And so she was 295 00:14:08,714 --> 00:14:14,434 Speaker 2: asked about how she had handled the online anger towards her, 296 00:14:14,674 --> 00:14:17,034 Speaker 2: about siding with Woody Allen, and if there had been 297 00:14:17,074 --> 00:14:20,394 Speaker 2: any consequences. So in this article, Scarlet says, I guess 298 00:14:20,394 --> 00:14:22,354 Speaker 2: it's hard to know. You never know what the domino 299 00:14:22,394 --> 00:14:25,354 Speaker 2: effect is. But my mum always encouraged me to be 300 00:14:25,514 --> 00:14:28,754 Speaker 2: myself and to see what's important to have integrity and 301 00:14:28,794 --> 00:14:30,914 Speaker 2: to stand up what you believe in. And then she 302 00:14:30,954 --> 00:14:32,634 Speaker 2: went on to say, at the same time, I think 303 00:14:32,634 --> 00:14:35,394 Speaker 2: it's also important to know when it's not your turn. 304 00:14:35,514 --> 00:14:37,674 Speaker 2: I don't mean that you should silence yourself. I mean 305 00:14:37,714 --> 00:14:40,194 Speaker 2: sometimes it's just not your time, and that's something I've 306 00:14:40,314 --> 00:14:41,794 Speaker 2: understood as I've matured. 307 00:14:41,954 --> 00:14:44,034 Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting that she says that last 308 00:14:44,034 --> 00:14:47,594 Speaker 1: part because she's doing the exact opposite of that. 309 00:14:47,994 --> 00:14:50,434 Speaker 2: I think there's a few layers to what she said there. 310 00:14:50,794 --> 00:14:54,114 Speaker 2: One is that Scarlet Johansen has always had quite a 311 00:14:54,114 --> 00:14:57,714 Speaker 2: lot of controversy around her, but she is quite an 312 00:14:57,834 --> 00:15:02,594 Speaker 2: untouchable movie star in many ways that she is consistently 313 00:15:02,674 --> 00:15:05,434 Speaker 2: the highest paid actress in Hollywood for many years. A 314 00:15:05,474 --> 00:15:07,834 Speaker 2: lot of that is to do obviously with being in Marvel, 315 00:15:07,914 --> 00:15:11,354 Speaker 2: but she also, like any of her controversies over the years, 316 00:15:11,394 --> 00:15:14,714 Speaker 2: haven't stopped her from like starting her skincare business or 317 00:15:14,754 --> 00:15:18,154 Speaker 2: directing movies, and she is someone in Hollywood that, apart 318 00:15:18,194 --> 00:15:21,434 Speaker 2: from Ronan Pharoh and like probably James Franco, who's been 319 00:15:21,514 --> 00:15:23,314 Speaker 2: very much canceled, she is someone who, like a lot 320 00:15:23,354 --> 00:15:26,434 Speaker 2: of other celebs, rally around in ways that haven't happened 321 00:15:26,434 --> 00:15:29,314 Speaker 2: for other celebrities who have had some of these controversies. 322 00:15:29,634 --> 00:15:31,394 Speaker 2: So I think that that's kind of interesting that she 323 00:15:31,474 --> 00:15:33,714 Speaker 2: kind of is talking from a place of safety, knowing 324 00:15:33,754 --> 00:15:36,354 Speaker 2: that no matter what she says, she's going to maintain 325 00:15:36,434 --> 00:15:38,914 Speaker 2: that ability to make money and be beloved and get 326 00:15:38,994 --> 00:15:40,314 Speaker 2: Jewel Oscar nominations. 327 00:15:40,394 --> 00:15:43,434 Speaker 1: The article also covers a number of those other controversies. 328 00:15:43,434 --> 00:15:45,754 Speaker 1: It's quite a meaty article. I mean they talk about, 329 00:15:45,794 --> 00:15:48,394 Speaker 1: you know, suing Disney for the Black Widow release. She 330 00:15:48,714 --> 00:15:50,754 Speaker 1: is not free from controversy. 331 00:15:50,914 --> 00:15:52,554 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she came out of the Disney thing 332 00:15:52,634 --> 00:15:54,914 Speaker 2: quite well, though probably not in Disney's eyes. But again, 333 00:15:54,994 --> 00:15:57,474 Speaker 2: she's such like a big name that they can't touch her. 334 00:15:57,474 --> 00:15:58,994 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people were just like, yeah, 335 00:15:59,074 --> 00:16:01,034 Speaker 2: get that money kind of thing. A lot of the 336 00:16:01,074 --> 00:16:03,834 Speaker 2: other controversies are to do with casting and diversity. So 337 00:16:03,874 --> 00:16:06,114 Speaker 2: when she was cast in Ghosts in a Shell, there 338 00:16:06,154 --> 00:16:08,234 Speaker 2: was a lot of anger about a white woman in 339 00:16:08,274 --> 00:16:11,954 Speaker 2: what should have been a Japanese role. And then instead 340 00:16:11,954 --> 00:16:14,714 Speaker 2: of kind of acknowledging that, which she did a little bit, 341 00:16:14,754 --> 00:16:16,634 Speaker 2: she did a lot of interviews about it. That's the thing, like, 342 00:16:16,674 --> 00:16:18,394 Speaker 2: if you ask her, and I kind of respect that 343 00:16:18,434 --> 00:16:20,834 Speaker 2: a little bit, if you ask her, she'll just answer 344 00:16:20,914 --> 00:16:23,274 Speaker 2: and give her thoughts. Again, it's coming from a place 345 00:16:23,274 --> 00:16:25,034 Speaker 2: of safety. But she was like, I would never take 346 00:16:25,034 --> 00:16:26,954 Speaker 2: a role away from anyone else. I would never play 347 00:16:26,954 --> 00:16:29,234 Speaker 2: anything that I wasn't supposed to play. But she's like, 348 00:16:29,234 --> 00:16:32,074 Speaker 2: I can't believe you people aren't celebrating a woman being 349 00:16:32,114 --> 00:16:34,914 Speaker 2: in this iconic role and staid making it about race, 350 00:16:34,994 --> 00:16:37,074 Speaker 2: and then she said something that was quite unfortunate. She's like, 351 00:16:37,074 --> 00:16:38,834 Speaker 2: if I want to play a tree or play a tree, 352 00:16:39,114 --> 00:16:39,994 Speaker 2: and everyone's. 353 00:16:39,634 --> 00:16:41,674 Speaker 1: Like, Oh, that's not the it's not the way to 354 00:16:41,914 --> 00:16:42,354 Speaker 1: don't comple. 355 00:16:43,674 --> 00:16:48,074 Speaker 2: And this is coming after the reaction to Ghosts in 356 00:16:48,114 --> 00:16:49,794 Speaker 2: a Shell, where she was cast in the role of 357 00:16:49,794 --> 00:16:52,754 Speaker 2: a transgender man in the movie Rub and Tug, and 358 00:16:53,074 --> 00:16:55,114 Speaker 2: this was a huge issue because a lot of people 359 00:16:55,114 --> 00:16:57,834 Speaker 2: were like, a straight white woman in particular playing that 360 00:16:57,954 --> 00:17:00,994 Speaker 2: role is taking that role away from other actor, and 361 00:17:01,274 --> 00:17:04,714 Speaker 2: especially when transgender actors in Hollywood usually don't get to 362 00:17:05,114 --> 00:17:06,794 Speaker 2: not even play characters that are for them, but get 363 00:17:06,834 --> 00:17:09,593 Speaker 2: to play characters in many different ways across movies and 364 00:17:09,594 --> 00:17:13,314 Speaker 2: TV shows. And she released a statement at the time 365 00:17:13,354 --> 00:17:14,994 Speaker 2: because this was a huge uproar and it was one 366 00:17:15,034 --> 00:17:16,674 Speaker 2: of those things that just it picked up across Twitter, 367 00:17:16,674 --> 00:17:19,194 Speaker 2: it picked up across Facebook and Instagram and all of 368 00:17:19,234 --> 00:17:22,553 Speaker 2: these things, and instead of having conversation about it, Scarlet 369 00:17:22,634 --> 00:17:25,794 Speaker 2: Johansson doubled down. She put out a statement that said, 370 00:17:26,154 --> 00:17:28,313 Speaker 2: for anyone who's upset about this, tell them. They can 371 00:17:28,354 --> 00:17:31,954 Speaker 2: be directed to Jeffrey Tamball, Jared Leto and Felicity Huffman's 372 00:17:31,954 --> 00:17:35,114 Speaker 2: reps for comment. Obviously all straight actors who have played 373 00:17:35,154 --> 00:17:37,834 Speaker 2: transgender characters in the past. I guess her point was 374 00:17:37,834 --> 00:17:40,154 Speaker 2: they were all critically acclaimed, they won awards, they got 375 00:17:40,194 --> 00:17:42,634 Speaker 2: pay a lot of money for playing these transgender characters. 376 00:17:42,994 --> 00:17:44,914 Speaker 2: And then her point was, and now I'm doing it 377 00:17:44,954 --> 00:17:47,994 Speaker 2: and I'm getting ripped apart. But the sentiment was that 378 00:17:48,034 --> 00:17:50,674 Speaker 2: times had just changed. She did pull out of that movie, though. 379 00:17:50,514 --> 00:17:53,714 Speaker 1: Well, if we're talking about the last twenty years of Hollywood, 380 00:17:53,794 --> 00:17:58,354 Speaker 1: it's changed significantly in terms of not casting straight people 381 00:17:58,434 --> 00:18:01,114 Speaker 1: in gay roles to give those people an opportunity to 382 00:18:01,194 --> 00:18:04,834 Speaker 1: be the stars, which is why Pose was such a 383 00:18:04,914 --> 00:18:09,674 Speaker 1: huge hit, because it hired all transactors in the roles 384 00:18:09,714 --> 00:18:13,154 Speaker 1: and it was really critically acclaimed. But yeah, I think 385 00:18:13,234 --> 00:18:15,114 Speaker 1: she's just trying to sort of back out of that one. 386 00:18:15,154 --> 00:18:19,234 Speaker 1: But I just feel like she has gotten away with 387 00:18:19,434 --> 00:18:24,394 Speaker 1: saying certain things. I understand why she's trying to stick 388 00:18:24,474 --> 00:18:27,474 Speaker 1: up for him, because she respects him, she likes his work, 389 00:18:27,914 --> 00:18:31,514 Speaker 1: she is friends with him. But I do think it's 390 00:18:31,714 --> 00:18:34,354 Speaker 1: important to look at like the actual facts of the matter. 391 00:18:34,434 --> 00:18:37,793 Speaker 1: And she says, oh, but I believe him, Well, do 392 00:18:37,874 --> 00:18:39,793 Speaker 1: you not believe the other people? 393 00:18:40,154 --> 00:18:43,313 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting that Woody Allen and who supports him 394 00:18:43,314 --> 00:18:45,793 Speaker 2: and who doesn't has become like the biggest line in 395 00:18:45,794 --> 00:18:48,994 Speaker 2: the sand for people in Hollywood. And for a while there, 396 00:18:49,034 --> 00:18:50,634 Speaker 2: it's like the whole thing of like, Woody Allen makes 397 00:18:50,714 --> 00:18:52,954 Speaker 2: one movie a year, and everyone wanted to be in 398 00:18:52,994 --> 00:18:55,594 Speaker 2: it because if you're like a Kate Blanchet or something, 399 00:18:55,634 --> 00:18:58,554 Speaker 2: you definitely win an oscar for it. And it had 400 00:18:58,594 --> 00:19:00,914 Speaker 2: this built in audience. So like that was the whole thing, 401 00:19:00,994 --> 00:19:02,994 Speaker 2: is like Woody Allen makes one movie a year, everyone 402 00:19:02,994 --> 00:19:04,513 Speaker 2: wants to be in it, Everyone will go see it, 403 00:19:04,514 --> 00:19:06,834 Speaker 2: it will win Oscars. And it was this pattern. And 404 00:19:06,874 --> 00:19:09,553 Speaker 2: then as time went on and people started to delve 405 00:19:09,554 --> 00:19:13,474 Speaker 2: more into Dylan Farrow's accusations and the Me two movement happened, 406 00:19:13,474 --> 00:19:15,954 Speaker 2: and times up, and that's when Hollywood started to fall 407 00:19:15,994 --> 00:19:17,994 Speaker 2: a little bit out of favor with Woody Allen. And 408 00:19:18,034 --> 00:19:19,914 Speaker 2: now you know, even he has said that he struggles 409 00:19:19,954 --> 00:19:22,434 Speaker 2: to get distribution for his movies, and there have been 410 00:19:22,474 --> 00:19:24,394 Speaker 2: a lot of really big celebrities who have worked with 411 00:19:24,474 --> 00:19:26,634 Speaker 2: him in the past who have come out and said 412 00:19:26,674 --> 00:19:29,714 Speaker 2: they deeply regret it. So like Michael Kaine has Greta Girlwig, 413 00:19:29,754 --> 00:19:34,274 Speaker 2: has Colin Firth, has Timothy Shallaman, Timothy Charmain Rebecca Hall 414 00:19:34,434 --> 00:19:36,793 Speaker 2: both donated the fees from the movie they worked on 415 00:19:37,194 --> 00:19:39,914 Speaker 2: because they said they felt bad about taking money from it. 416 00:19:40,234 --> 00:19:43,234 Speaker 1: Blake Lively did actually work with him, and when she 417 00:19:43,434 --> 00:19:46,674 Speaker 1: was asked about him, she was very, very evasive. She 418 00:19:46,754 --> 00:19:48,674 Speaker 1: didn't actually answer. She's like, oh, I don't know much 419 00:19:48,674 --> 00:19:51,314 Speaker 1: about it. I'm just gonna leave it. And Kate Blanchett 420 00:19:51,314 --> 00:19:53,954 Speaker 1: actually did the same thing too. There's kind of the 421 00:19:53,994 --> 00:19:58,234 Speaker 1: celebrities that will dance around it, definitely not defending him, 422 00:19:58,674 --> 00:20:00,274 Speaker 1: but then also not supporting him. 423 00:20:00,554 --> 00:20:02,914 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. I've struggled with that over the years 424 00:20:02,914 --> 00:20:05,833 Speaker 2: because I'm someone who has called out people like in 425 00:20:05,874 --> 00:20:08,594 Speaker 2: like my writing, people like Blake Lively who want to 426 00:20:08,594 --> 00:20:10,034 Speaker 2: be in the big movie and want to wear the 427 00:20:10,074 --> 00:20:12,634 Speaker 2: pretty dresses. It can't. But then when it comes to 428 00:20:13,114 --> 00:20:16,434 Speaker 2: being asked about Woody Allen has gotten quite upset with 429 00:20:16,514 --> 00:20:18,273 Speaker 2: journalists and said like, it's nothing to do with me, 430 00:20:18,714 --> 00:20:20,474 Speaker 2: and like sometimes I've called them out, but then I've 431 00:20:20,514 --> 00:20:22,514 Speaker 2: also backtracked and been like, oh, why am I attacking 432 00:20:22,514 --> 00:20:25,394 Speaker 2: this young woman for what this man has done, but 433 00:20:25,514 --> 00:20:27,714 Speaker 2: it's a complicated situation. And then you have people like 434 00:20:27,794 --> 00:20:31,394 Speaker 2: Kristian Stewart, who was in Cafe Society with Blake Lively 435 00:20:31,474 --> 00:20:32,794 Speaker 2: and that was the kind of one of the last 436 00:20:32,794 --> 00:20:35,434 Speaker 2: big Woody Allen movies when everyone was like, yeah, we're 437 00:20:35,474 --> 00:20:37,234 Speaker 2: all in on this. So I understand why they did 438 00:20:37,274 --> 00:20:39,394 Speaker 2: it in a way. And I usually agree with Christian 439 00:20:39,394 --> 00:20:41,834 Speaker 2: Sewan on most of what she says, but I sort 440 00:20:41,834 --> 00:20:43,354 Speaker 2: of had to sit with what she said about working 441 00:20:43,354 --> 00:20:46,074 Speaker 2: with Woody Allen because she said that she was wrestling 442 00:20:46,074 --> 00:20:48,794 Speaker 2: with it when she signed on for the movie, which 443 00:20:48,874 --> 00:20:50,513 Speaker 2: I find interesting because that means I'm like, so you 444 00:20:50,594 --> 00:20:52,553 Speaker 2: knew about everything, Yeah, you were in the depths of it. 445 00:20:52,594 --> 00:20:54,914 Speaker 2: And then she said that she talked with Jesse Eisenberg 446 00:20:55,314 --> 00:20:58,194 Speaker 2: about it, and she came to the idea that she's like, 447 00:20:58,234 --> 00:21:00,154 Speaker 2: a lot of what people have said about me is 448 00:21:00,194 --> 00:21:02,674 Speaker 2: not true. And if I thought someone I was working 449 00:21:02,674 --> 00:21:05,594 Speaker 2: with believed everything, that would be really upsetting for me. 450 00:21:06,034 --> 00:21:07,793 Speaker 2: Because she's like, I know a lot of lies are 451 00:21:07,794 --> 00:21:10,754 Speaker 2: printed about me, and so I can't not work with 452 00:21:10,794 --> 00:21:13,313 Speaker 2: someone just because things have been printed about them. And 453 00:21:13,354 --> 00:21:15,114 Speaker 2: I was a bit like, I don't know about that's 454 00:21:15,154 --> 00:21:16,514 Speaker 2: not quite the Yeah. 455 00:21:16,354 --> 00:21:19,314 Speaker 1: It's not illegal though the things that they're lying about. 456 00:21:19,314 --> 00:21:21,514 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a morally brumer. 457 00:21:21,834 --> 00:21:25,234 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a big difference between a rumor and sexual 458 00:21:25,234 --> 00:21:29,794 Speaker 1: assault allegations and c SAM like, it's it's very, very different. 459 00:21:30,074 --> 00:21:33,074 Speaker 2: I think one of the best responses, especially giving space 460 00:21:33,114 --> 00:21:35,954 Speaker 2: to someone to change their mind as they get older 461 00:21:35,994 --> 00:21:38,634 Speaker 2: and they work more is Kate Winslow, because she did 462 00:21:38,634 --> 00:21:41,114 Speaker 2: a Woody on movie and there was quite a bit 463 00:21:41,114 --> 00:21:43,553 Speaker 2: of backlash at the time, and she was like, no, no, no, 464 00:21:43,834 --> 00:21:45,874 Speaker 2: I had a wonderful experience working with him. It was 465 00:21:45,914 --> 00:21:48,474 Speaker 2: so great, was so professional. I've never felt so creatively challenged. 466 00:21:48,514 --> 00:21:51,474 Speaker 2: I'm not getting into this. And then years later she 467 00:21:51,634 --> 00:21:54,754 Speaker 2: had a complete turnaround and she said, what the fuck 468 00:21:54,834 --> 00:21:57,634 Speaker 2: was I doing working with Woody Allen and Roman Polanski? 469 00:21:58,554 --> 00:22:00,634 Speaker 2: The Roman plans give it all is actually wild. I 470 00:22:00,634 --> 00:22:02,914 Speaker 2: was like, yeah, girl, what were you doing? She said, 471 00:22:02,954 --> 00:22:05,634 Speaker 2: it's unbelievable to me now how these men were held 472 00:22:05,674 --> 00:22:08,554 Speaker 2: in such high regard so widely in the film industry 473 00:22:08,834 --> 00:22:11,354 Speaker 2: and for as long as they were. It's fucking disgraceful. 474 00:22:11,754 --> 00:22:13,793 Speaker 2: And then she said, I had to take responsibility for 475 00:22:13,834 --> 00:22:14,914 Speaker 2: the fact that I work with them. 476 00:22:14,954 --> 00:22:15,234 Speaker 1: Both. 477 00:22:15,274 --> 00:22:18,034 Speaker 2: I can't turn back the clock. I'm grappling with those regrets. 478 00:22:18,274 --> 00:22:19,754 Speaker 2: But what do we do if we can't just be 479 00:22:19,794 --> 00:22:22,674 Speaker 2: fucking truthful about it all? And the whole thing is like, 480 00:22:22,754 --> 00:22:25,554 Speaker 2: I don't I don't dislike Scarlet Johanson for this. I 481 00:22:25,554 --> 00:22:27,234 Speaker 2: also don't think it's not my place to dislike her. 482 00:22:27,514 --> 00:22:30,434 Speaker 2: One part of me thinks that, like she really believes 483 00:22:30,474 --> 00:22:33,514 Speaker 2: that he's innocent, and she really believes in Woody Allen, 484 00:22:33,594 --> 00:22:36,554 Speaker 2: and so I respect her a little bit for being 485 00:22:36,554 --> 00:22:38,674 Speaker 2: one of the few people in Hollywood to actually say 486 00:22:39,234 --> 00:22:42,474 Speaker 2: what she thinks. But on the other hand, like she 487 00:22:42,554 --> 00:22:46,994 Speaker 2: said herself that she's made a career out of being controversial, 488 00:22:47,314 --> 00:22:49,314 Speaker 2: which I think if you said the name Scarlet Johanson, 489 00:22:49,354 --> 00:22:51,714 Speaker 2: no one would think she's contra scary under the writ 490 00:22:53,034 --> 00:22:55,954 Speaker 2: born actress who just kind of yeah, does say a 491 00:22:55,954 --> 00:22:57,634 Speaker 2: lot of wrong things, but like at the end of 492 00:22:57,674 --> 00:23:00,754 Speaker 2: the day, she's very protected from it. Also, when she 493 00:23:00,834 --> 00:23:03,874 Speaker 2: talks about and when she talks about building her career 494 00:23:03,954 --> 00:23:05,914 Speaker 2: on controversy, I was like, just I don't think that's true, 495 00:23:05,994 --> 00:23:08,674 Speaker 2: because if you career was built on controversy, you wouldn't 496 00:23:08,714 --> 00:23:10,554 Speaker 2: have all these huge opportunities that you have, and you 497 00:23:10,594 --> 00:23:12,554 Speaker 2: wouldn't have all these get out of jail free passes, 498 00:23:12,954 --> 00:23:14,793 Speaker 2: and you wouldn't be able to say whatever you want 499 00:23:14,874 --> 00:23:17,514 Speaker 2: an interview place of safety, knowing that people will still 500 00:23:17,514 --> 00:23:20,154 Speaker 2: buy your skincare. People are very invested in your marriage 501 00:23:20,194 --> 00:23:23,914 Speaker 2: to like your comedian husband, people are very invested in 502 00:23:23,954 --> 00:23:27,634 Speaker 2: your return to like the Marvel Cinematic universe. And I 503 00:23:27,674 --> 00:23:30,594 Speaker 2: just think it's very Yeah, it's not exactly a clear 504 00:23:30,594 --> 00:23:33,114 Speaker 2: cut situation. Well, we'll link the full interview that she 505 00:23:33,154 --> 00:23:34,914 Speaker 2: did with the Telegraph and the show notes, because you know, 506 00:23:34,914 --> 00:23:36,754 Speaker 2: if you want to sort of read her full statement 507 00:23:36,834 --> 00:23:38,474 Speaker 2: and sort of look into that yourself, it is an 508 00:23:38,514 --> 00:23:39,154 Speaker 2: interesting read. 509 00:23:39,274 --> 00:23:43,914 Speaker 1: Nana nanaa et Suran has released an additional thirteen songs 510 00:23:43,954 --> 00:23:47,394 Speaker 1: for his deluxe album play So to talk about this 511 00:23:47,514 --> 00:23:50,034 Speaker 1: and all of those new songs, we have the wonderful 512 00:23:50,034 --> 00:23:53,474 Speaker 1: Bree Player here. She's the executive producer of Mamma MIA's 513 00:23:53,514 --> 00:23:57,634 Speaker 1: interview podcast No Filter, and she's interviewed ed Shuran, She's 514 00:23:57,674 --> 00:24:00,234 Speaker 1: interviewed a number of other music artists, and she's a 515 00:24:00,394 --> 00:24:03,033 Speaker 1: wonderful wealth of knowledge. Bra Are you gonna help us 516 00:24:03,034 --> 00:24:04,674 Speaker 1: out today? Absolutely? 517 00:24:05,114 --> 00:24:09,474 Speaker 2: So? Ed has done the deluxe version of Play. So 518 00:24:09,514 --> 00:24:11,954 Speaker 2: the album that he released back in September, he's done 519 00:24:11,954 --> 00:24:15,114 Speaker 2: a re release deluxe, which is very popular with musicians 520 00:24:15,154 --> 00:24:19,554 Speaker 2: these days, and on it are fourteen new tracks, and interestingly, 521 00:24:20,154 --> 00:24:24,314 Speaker 2: the famously private Ed Seron has hinted to some troubles 522 00:24:24,354 --> 00:24:26,313 Speaker 2: within his marriage to Cherry. 523 00:24:26,354 --> 00:24:29,754 Speaker 1: This is something that surprised me the most is because 524 00:24:29,954 --> 00:24:32,354 Speaker 1: you know, we know artists write about their love lives 525 00:24:32,354 --> 00:24:34,994 Speaker 1: all the time, they use it as inspiration, but Ed 526 00:24:35,074 --> 00:24:39,834 Speaker 1: has been so private about Cherry, especially Cherry and their kids. 527 00:24:39,994 --> 00:24:42,874 Speaker 1: Actually Laura, Laura's really good a celebrity kids. 528 00:24:42,914 --> 00:24:45,394 Speaker 2: Now I know those children's names, you don't know their name. 529 00:24:45,514 --> 00:24:47,754 Speaker 2: He never talks about them. I know, I know every 530 00:24:47,794 --> 00:24:50,033 Speaker 2: other slub child's name. But I think that goes to 531 00:24:50,074 --> 00:24:52,994 Speaker 2: show just how private Ed Sharon is is. Like, we 532 00:24:53,034 --> 00:24:55,553 Speaker 2: don't know a huge amount about his family. We know 533 00:24:55,594 --> 00:24:58,194 Speaker 2: that they have two kids together, right, two they've been 534 00:24:58,274 --> 00:24:59,314 Speaker 2: like do you know their name? 535 00:24:59,394 --> 00:24:59,594 Speaker 1: Yeah? 536 00:25:00,034 --> 00:25:02,394 Speaker 2: And Jupiter. Oh. I actually did know it was Larra 537 00:25:02,514 --> 00:25:05,033 Speaker 2: because they named her from that famous book series. So 538 00:25:05,114 --> 00:25:06,234 Speaker 2: that's the golden compass. 539 00:25:06,314 --> 00:25:08,874 Speaker 1: Yes, it's Lyra Antuctica Seaborn Schurin. 540 00:25:09,074 --> 00:25:10,754 Speaker 2: That's a great name. I know he and cherry like. 541 00:25:10,834 --> 00:25:13,354 Speaker 2: They have done some kind of promo not promo stuff together, 542 00:25:13,394 --> 00:25:15,754 Speaker 2: but they have talked about their relationship and how in 543 00:25:15,794 --> 00:25:18,313 Speaker 2: love they are over the years. My biggest memory of 544 00:25:18,394 --> 00:25:20,793 Speaker 2: him is that he said that he kind of almost 545 00:25:20,794 --> 00:25:22,793 Speaker 2: like set a test for her when they started dating, 546 00:25:23,034 --> 00:25:24,714 Speaker 2: when he would take her to parties and kind of 547 00:25:24,714 --> 00:25:27,514 Speaker 2: just like purposely leave her alone in the room when 548 00:25:27,554 --> 00:25:29,554 Speaker 2: he was becoming like very very famous, to see if 549 00:25:29,554 --> 00:25:32,234 Speaker 2: she could go and look after herself and and kind 550 00:25:32,274 --> 00:25:34,234 Speaker 2: of stand on her own, so that he knew she 551 00:25:34,314 --> 00:25:36,874 Speaker 2: could stand by his side through the fame, which I 552 00:25:36,874 --> 00:25:39,553 Speaker 2: always felt like a bit. Yeah, it's brutal right, I 553 00:25:39,554 --> 00:25:41,994 Speaker 2: don't know how. I don't doubt me, but she passed. 554 00:25:41,994 --> 00:25:45,394 Speaker 2: But she obviously passed. So the pair have been married 555 00:25:45,554 --> 00:25:50,634 Speaker 2: now since twenty nineteen. And yeah, they are famously private. 556 00:25:50,714 --> 00:25:53,634 Speaker 2: She is so low key. You don't see her at places. 557 00:25:53,674 --> 00:25:56,313 Speaker 2: I mean, look, he's quite low key as well, Like 558 00:25:56,514 --> 00:26:00,274 Speaker 2: he famously doesn't have a phone. Yeah, so so it's 559 00:26:00,314 --> 00:26:03,793 Speaker 2: hard to reach. He definitely grapples with fame, and I 560 00:26:03,834 --> 00:26:06,914 Speaker 2: think he's been very open about that and the way 561 00:26:06,914 --> 00:26:10,434 Speaker 2: that he guards that. To me, he's a musician who 562 00:26:10,514 --> 00:26:12,554 Speaker 2: wants to be a musician. He doesn't want to be 563 00:26:12,594 --> 00:26:16,034 Speaker 2: a celebrity, right, but he just happens to write massive, 564 00:26:16,074 --> 00:26:19,034 Speaker 2: massive hits and do these massive tours. 565 00:26:19,554 --> 00:26:22,154 Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the song's problems is the song 566 00:26:22,194 --> 00:26:25,634 Speaker 1: that kind of really sparked people. So lyrics are flowers 567 00:26:25,674 --> 00:26:28,194 Speaker 1: in our garden are dying? When did the water run dry? 568 00:26:28,234 --> 00:26:30,994 Speaker 1: Who can tell? But you want the truth, We're not fine. 569 00:26:31,674 --> 00:26:34,114 Speaker 1: And I feel like that's very very honest. 570 00:26:34,354 --> 00:26:38,234 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so honest. I mean it's like, for Ed, 571 00:26:38,514 --> 00:26:41,994 Speaker 2: we always hear him writing these incredible love songs, right, 572 00:26:42,074 --> 00:26:45,554 Speaker 2: I mean, so many people have had Ed sheeran romantic 573 00:26:45,594 --> 00:26:49,114 Speaker 2: love songs at their wedding. He's very good at expressing 574 00:26:49,154 --> 00:26:51,514 Speaker 2: his emotion, but we normally hear it from the other 575 00:26:51,594 --> 00:26:54,354 Speaker 2: side of it. So to hear this is really interesting 576 00:26:54,394 --> 00:26:57,474 Speaker 2: and to hear him say, to compare it to flowers 577 00:26:57,474 --> 00:27:00,994 Speaker 2: that are dying. But I mean, you're married, right, you 578 00:27:01,114 --> 00:27:02,954 Speaker 2: know that, like a marriage takes work. 579 00:27:03,154 --> 00:27:05,874 Speaker 1: That's why I think I quite like it because a 580 00:27:05,874 --> 00:27:09,273 Speaker 1: lot of people have really latched onto the troubles that 581 00:27:09,274 --> 00:27:11,553 Speaker 1: they're having. But there are a number of other songs 582 00:27:11,554 --> 00:27:14,754 Speaker 1: in it that talk about how much he still loves 583 00:27:14,754 --> 00:27:17,514 Speaker 1: her and how much he wants to put the work in. Absolutely, 584 00:27:17,554 --> 00:27:20,074 Speaker 1: I don't think it's like a rift in the relationship 585 00:27:20,114 --> 00:27:21,874 Speaker 1: it's going to end. No, it's just a very honest 586 00:27:22,314 --> 00:27:24,394 Speaker 1: analysis of like what it's actually like to be in 587 00:27:24,394 --> 00:27:26,234 Speaker 1: a relationship when you've got two small children. 588 00:27:26,354 --> 00:27:28,754 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think what people forget as well as 589 00:27:28,794 --> 00:27:32,034 Speaker 2: that artists write these songs and then they release them 590 00:27:32,234 --> 00:27:32,954 Speaker 2: a year later. 591 00:27:33,194 --> 00:27:35,074 Speaker 1: Right, So what's he. 592 00:27:35,154 --> 00:27:38,434 Speaker 2: Singing about right now in these new tracks aren't necessarily 593 00:27:38,434 --> 00:27:41,874 Speaker 2: effective of what's happening in their relationship now, it's reflective 594 00:27:41,914 --> 00:27:44,114 Speaker 2: of what was happening at the time that he wrote it, 595 00:27:44,234 --> 00:27:46,474 Speaker 2: or you know, leading into the time that he wrote it. 596 00:27:46,914 --> 00:27:47,114 Speaker 1: Now. 597 00:27:47,154 --> 00:27:51,194 Speaker 2: I chatted with Ed Cheeran back in July ahead of 598 00:27:51,794 --> 00:27:54,554 Speaker 2: like when he was doing promo for announcing his Australian tour. 599 00:27:54,634 --> 00:27:57,634 Speaker 2: So he's coming here next year in feb and he'll 600 00:27:57,674 --> 00:28:01,954 Speaker 2: be here all month touring around Australia. Now, he was 601 00:28:02,434 --> 00:28:06,474 Speaker 2: happy talking about his family, you know, not delving into 602 00:28:06,674 --> 00:28:09,154 Speaker 2: the nitty gritty. But first thing he did was bring 603 00:28:09,234 --> 00:28:12,194 Speaker 2: up his daughters. He talked about Cherry, talked about her warmly. 604 00:28:12,234 --> 00:28:16,074 Speaker 2: He talked about how she's like the grounding person in 605 00:28:16,114 --> 00:28:21,274 Speaker 2: his life. And definitely like still is and has always been. 606 00:28:21,714 --> 00:28:24,314 Speaker 2: But when an artist is on the road for months 607 00:28:24,354 --> 00:28:26,194 Speaker 2: and months and months at a time, and sometimes like 608 00:28:26,234 --> 00:28:29,034 Speaker 2: their tours will go for a year, year and a half, 609 00:28:29,074 --> 00:28:31,234 Speaker 2: two years, like it puts a strain. 610 00:28:31,474 --> 00:28:34,194 Speaker 1: And let's not forget that Cherry was diagnosed with brain 611 00:28:34,234 --> 00:28:37,554 Speaker 1: cancer when she was pregnant with their second daughter, and 612 00:28:37,634 --> 00:28:39,754 Speaker 1: we saw a little bit of that in that documentary 613 00:28:39,914 --> 00:28:41,914 Speaker 1: that he did, so you know, he kind we saw 614 00:28:41,954 --> 00:28:44,874 Speaker 1: a little bit of a glimpse into it. So you know, 615 00:28:44,954 --> 00:28:48,074 Speaker 1: he's got two kits, a wife, he travels on stop. 616 00:28:48,354 --> 00:28:50,834 Speaker 1: His wife is she's better now, She's okay, but a 617 00:28:50,874 --> 00:28:52,874 Speaker 1: bit a very stressful few years. It was a quote 618 00:28:52,874 --> 00:28:54,834 Speaker 1: I found earlier on in the year he in a 619 00:28:54,914 --> 00:28:58,074 Speaker 1: Q and a session at Spotify HQ. He said, Cherry 620 00:28:58,114 --> 00:29:00,754 Speaker 1: knows I write about everything, not just the good stuff. 621 00:29:00,914 --> 00:29:04,514 Speaker 1: Songs like perfect exist, but so do the ones about 622 00:29:04,594 --> 00:29:07,714 Speaker 1: real conflict that's part of any relationship. And I think 623 00:29:07,754 --> 00:29:09,234 Speaker 1: it's important to be honest about it. 624 00:29:09,514 --> 00:29:12,554 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's what we're saying here. 625 00:29:12,594 --> 00:29:15,154 Speaker 2: What I do find really interesting with the songs that 626 00:29:15,194 --> 00:29:17,474 Speaker 2: he's added and the delatse is that they're the ones 627 00:29:17,474 --> 00:29:20,874 Speaker 2: that delve into these marriage issues. It's interesting that they 628 00:29:20,914 --> 00:29:23,794 Speaker 2: weren't on the original album, and I think he did that. 629 00:29:24,074 --> 00:29:26,994 Speaker 2: I think it's very much on purpose. I don't think 630 00:29:27,274 --> 00:29:30,434 Speaker 2: Ed cares about Colin Inch's and headlines. I don't think 631 00:29:30,474 --> 00:29:35,514 Speaker 2: that this is trying to get those songs out there. 632 00:29:35,594 --> 00:29:37,754 Speaker 2: I don't think he actually cares about that. I think 633 00:29:37,794 --> 00:29:40,114 Speaker 2: he's at a stage in his career where he's writing 634 00:29:40,154 --> 00:29:43,074 Speaker 2: the songs he wants to do. He's exploring different things musically. 635 00:29:43,354 --> 00:29:46,074 Speaker 2: We've got some Eastern influences on this album, which is 636 00:29:46,394 --> 00:29:51,834 Speaker 2: him trying different things. Yeah, exactly, and Sapphire, and he 637 00:29:51,954 --> 00:29:55,634 Speaker 2: wants to kind of explore different areas as an artist 638 00:29:55,714 --> 00:29:58,194 Speaker 2: and not really care about whether he's getting number ones 639 00:29:58,194 --> 00:30:00,554 Speaker 2: and things like that. Now he doesn't have anything left 640 00:30:00,554 --> 00:30:04,674 Speaker 2: to prove, so I think he knew that by holding 641 00:30:04,714 --> 00:30:07,594 Speaker 2: back these songs rather than releasing them straight away, meant 642 00:30:07,634 --> 00:30:09,474 Speaker 2: that the music that he was proud of and the 643 00:30:09,554 --> 00:30:11,514 Speaker 2: music that he wanted to put out there got to 644 00:30:11,594 --> 00:30:15,954 Speaker 2: exist on its own before the headlines and the news 645 00:30:15,954 --> 00:30:18,594 Speaker 2: came out about is their marriage issues there? 646 00:30:18,714 --> 00:30:21,274 Speaker 1: I have one more question for you. Yeah, you know so, 647 00:30:21,434 --> 00:30:24,114 Speaker 1: Ed is very famous for doing all of his album 648 00:30:24,194 --> 00:30:27,274 Speaker 1: titles are part of this maths equation. We've got equals, 649 00:30:27,314 --> 00:30:30,274 Speaker 1: We've got we've got play, we've got divide. What's he 650 00:30:30,354 --> 00:30:32,834 Speaker 1: going to do once he runs out Pie Pi? 651 00:30:33,114 --> 00:30:36,154 Speaker 2: I don't do PI do pie. Maths is not my 652 00:30:36,234 --> 00:30:38,554 Speaker 2: strong suit, So look is. 653 00:30:38,554 --> 00:30:40,874 Speaker 1: The wrong room to be asking? Yeah, but I love 654 00:30:40,954 --> 00:30:43,274 Speaker 1: the theme. You know, Adele did the twenty one, she 655 00:30:43,274 --> 00:30:45,394 Speaker 1: did twenty nineteen, all of that. But I feel like 656 00:30:45,434 --> 00:30:48,154 Speaker 1: he's really got a great thing here. He does. 657 00:30:49,154 --> 00:30:53,154 Speaker 2: This tour is called the Loop Tour. Ooh, maybe it's 658 00:30:53,154 --> 00:30:56,274 Speaker 2: like an infinity an infinity so it's just yeah. 659 00:30:56,314 --> 00:30:59,314 Speaker 1: Anyway, so as you're in playing in Australia next. 660 00:30:59,234 --> 00:31:01,114 Speaker 2: Year, playing in Australia next year. 661 00:31:01,394 --> 00:31:02,194 Speaker 1: He's a good boy. 662 00:31:02,354 --> 00:31:04,874 Speaker 2: He hits everyone, he makes sure that everyone gets to 663 00:31:04,874 --> 00:31:08,194 Speaker 2: Sam and he always plays a stadium and he'll be 664 00:31:08,234 --> 00:31:11,714 Speaker 2: here all through fab and into the beginning of March. 665 00:31:11,874 --> 00:31:14,874 Speaker 2: So look, it'd be interesting to see if he opens 666 00:31:14,954 --> 00:31:16,874 Speaker 2: up a little bit when talking on stage, and whether 667 00:31:16,914 --> 00:31:19,234 Speaker 2: he even sings these tracks because they are on the 668 00:31:19,274 --> 00:31:20,714 Speaker 2: Deluxe so he may not. 669 00:31:20,954 --> 00:31:23,194 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening today, guys, make sure you're 670 00:31:23,194 --> 00:31:26,114 Speaker 1: following this bill on TikTok and Instagram. We love chatting 671 00:31:26,114 --> 00:31:28,354 Speaker 1: with you. We'll be back here in your feed tomorrow 672 00:31:28,434 --> 00:31:30,954 Speaker 1: morning at seven am with Morning Tea hosted by the 673 00:31:30,954 --> 00:31:33,914 Speaker 1: wonder Lush London. This bill is produced by Minisha is 674 00:31:34,074 --> 00:31:36,234 Speaker 1: Warren with sound production by Scott's Stronik. 675 00:31:36,314 --> 00:31:49,794 Speaker 2: Bye Bye, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. 676 00:31:49,834 --> 00:31:52,794 Speaker 2: We have recorded this podcast on the Gatigor people of 677 00:31:52,834 --> 00:31:56,234 Speaker 2: the eorination. We pay our respects to their elders past 678 00:31:56,314 --> 00:31:59,194 Speaker 2: and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and 679 00:31:59,234 --> 00:32:00,674 Speaker 2: Torres Strait Islander cultures.