WEBVTT - The Melbourne Mother Executed By Mistake 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:15.542 You're listening to a mother and Mia podcast. Mama Mea 0:00:15.622 --> 0:00:19.422 acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast 0:00:19.622 --> 0:00:28.542 was recorded on It's just after three point thirty PM 0:00:28.582 --> 0:00:31.662 on a spring afternoon in Melbourne in nineteen ninety seven 0:00:32.422 --> 0:00:34.822 and Jane Thurgodove is pulled into the driveway of her 0:00:34.902 --> 0:00:39.102 Muriel Street home, her three kids, aged eleven, six and 0:00:39.182 --> 0:00:41.502 three and tucked into the backseat of the family car. 0:00:41.822 --> 0:00:45.542 After their respective days at school and preschool, time to 0:00:45.542 --> 0:00:48.622 get inside and wind down ahead of the normal evening routine. 0:00:48.982 --> 0:00:51.462 It's Oaks Day, so there's a real buzz around town. 0:00:51.942 --> 0:00:53.542 Maybe they'll still be able to catch some of the 0:00:53.622 --> 0:00:57.702 races and fashion on the TV. But before Jane has 0:00:57.742 --> 0:01:01.342 time to finish her next thought, a stolen commodore pulls 0:01:01.382 --> 0:01:04.622 in behind her vehicle, blocking her in. A pot bellied 0:01:04.622 --> 0:01:10.142 gunman starts chasing her. She shot once twice at point 0:01:10.142 --> 0:01:13.662 blank range. Her kids watch on as she dies in 0:01:13.702 --> 0:01:17.742 front of them on the driveway. For years, police are 0:01:17.742 --> 0:01:20.262 convinced she was killed by a man with an obsession, 0:01:20.982 --> 0:01:24.582 but they were wrong. This murder of a young Melbourne 0:01:24.582 --> 0:01:36.542 mother is believed to be a devastating case of mistaken identity. 0:01:43.382 --> 0:01:46.862 Jane was just an average mum living in an average street, 0:01:47.182 --> 0:01:50.502 married to an average guy, but her murder was like 0:01:50.582 --> 0:01:54.542 something out of a gangland war, executed in broad daylight 0:01:54.622 --> 0:01:59.142 in front of her kids. Twenty seven years on, so 0:01:59.262 --> 0:02:02.942 many questions remain in this case, and it's one journalist 0:02:02.982 --> 0:02:05.742 John Sylvester has been keeping a close eye on from 0:02:05.782 --> 0:02:10.942 the start. John is Australia's longest serving crime reporter the Beat. 0:02:10.982 --> 0:02:14.462 Since nineteen seventy eight. He has written or co authored 0:02:14.582 --> 0:02:18.342 over thirty books. His latest is called Dark City. John 0:02:18.422 --> 0:02:31.622 joins us now Who was Jane so good Dove to 0:02:31.702 --> 0:02:33.022 her friends and loved ones? 0:02:33.862 --> 0:02:37.182 Jane Thurgodove was a woman in her early thirties. She 0:02:37.342 --> 0:02:40.822 was married and the mother of three. She lived in 0:02:40.982 --> 0:02:44.342 the Melbourne suburb of Knitry in a street called Muriel Street, 0:02:45.062 --> 0:02:48.462 really well liked, close to her parents and her sister, 0:02:49.342 --> 0:02:53.222 and was seen I suppose she want to put the 0:02:53.222 --> 0:02:56.582 cliche in as a suburban mum. She was living a 0:02:56.782 --> 0:03:00.662 happy and full life and she wasn't known to the 0:03:00.702 --> 0:03:03.422 general public, and as is so often the case in 0:03:03.462 --> 0:03:06.822 these treatedies, she ends up being defined by her death, 0:03:06.902 --> 0:03:07.622 not her life. 0:03:08.622 --> 0:03:11.982 Well, she was shot dead in her driveway on November seven, 0:03:12.102 --> 0:03:15.662 nineteen ninety seven, and the description given was of a 0:03:15.702 --> 0:03:19.382 pot bellied man in a holden commodore who was able 0:03:19.502 --> 0:03:21.182 to give those details. 0:03:20.702 --> 0:03:23.582 To police, A couple of passive iz and certainly when 0:03:23.622 --> 0:03:26.702 one of the witnesses was quite young, as you can imagine, 0:03:26.702 --> 0:03:32.062 in just a quiet suburban street. And really again you've 0:03:32.062 --> 0:03:35.222 got to remember CCTV things like that, which is now 0:03:35.262 --> 0:03:39.662 just routine, wasn't there, So you rely on the eyewitnesses, 0:03:40.062 --> 0:03:43.222 and very quickly a car was found not too far 0:03:43.302 --> 0:03:46.942 away burnt out. Now that was the first telltale sign. 0:03:46.982 --> 0:03:50.062 Hang on a minute, that's heading into that sort of 0:03:50.102 --> 0:03:53.622 professional world to get rid of a stolen car that 0:03:53.662 --> 0:03:56.542 had been stooped away for some time. So it wasn't 0:03:56.622 --> 0:03:59.942 just joy riding. It had been set there, so you 0:03:59.942 --> 0:04:02.662 would know that a second vehicle would have been present 0:04:02.942 --> 0:04:06.022 from there. These days, of course, and you've seen it 0:04:06.062 --> 0:04:11.262 a thousand times on television, you see that handover vias CCTV. 0:04:11.902 --> 0:04:15.942 In those days, it didn't exist. So almost the physical 0:04:16.022 --> 0:04:19.542 forensic trial ended with that burnt out car. 0:04:20.982 --> 0:04:23.982 Were those few witnesses able to place anyone else at 0:04:23.982 --> 0:04:27.262 the scene. Was the gunman alone had a driver. 0:04:27.822 --> 0:04:30.942 And so again you know, we're not looking at a 0:04:30.982 --> 0:04:34.582 lone wolf. This is heading what's going on here. But 0:04:34.662 --> 0:04:38.742 it was so strange, of course, because it smells in 0:04:38.782 --> 0:04:42.142 a way like a professional hit. But this is a 0:04:42.182 --> 0:04:47.782 woman with no connections to the underworld. And that becomes 0:04:47.862 --> 0:04:53.822 quite interesting later because Jane becomes subject of a number 0:04:53.862 --> 0:04:56.342 of rumors she was having an affair with a gangster. 0:04:56.862 --> 0:04:59.102 She was a witness at an armed robbery, and I 0:04:59.102 --> 0:05:03.022 think that tells you a lot about us, because the 0:05:03.222 --> 0:05:05.782 idea of a mother being killed in front of her 0:05:05.822 --> 0:05:10.582 children in her front driveway is so horrible. We have 0:05:10.622 --> 0:05:13.542 to find a reason and in the process blame the victim. 0:05:13.582 --> 0:05:15.742 You see, if Jane was on the wrong side of 0:05:15.782 --> 0:05:18.902 the tracks, if Jane had had a relationship with a gangster, 0:05:19.222 --> 0:05:23.982 well that means my wife, my daughter, they're safe because 0:05:24.102 --> 0:05:28.222 they're good people. So it's funny how we tend to 0:05:28.702 --> 0:05:30.982 want to blame the victims to get an answer. 0:05:31.702 --> 0:05:34.302 That's so interesting because, like you were saying, she was 0:05:34.342 --> 0:05:38.342 just a normal suburban mum, a normal lossie. And I 0:05:38.342 --> 0:05:40.582 do want to touch on the fact that her children, 0:05:40.742 --> 0:05:43.542 who were all under eleven, the youngest was three. They 0:05:43.542 --> 0:05:47.902 all watched this unfold. Did we hear from them away from. 0:05:47.782 --> 0:05:50.702 The media, kept well away from them for obvious reasons. 0:05:51.182 --> 0:05:56.382 They were really cooperative as kids would be with the police, 0:05:56.382 --> 0:05:59.382 and the police handled that well. And they had a 0:05:59.422 --> 0:06:05.302 strong family unit with Mark the husband, and Jane's parents. 0:06:05.902 --> 0:06:09.062 Well, you have been in touch with the family over 0:06:09.062 --> 0:06:13.422 the years, particularly Jane's parents. How did this crime, what 0:06:13.542 --> 0:06:15.942 happened to Jane impact their lives? 0:06:16.542 --> 0:06:22.342 Well, one can only imagine what happened to them. They're 0:06:22.382 --> 0:06:27.302 lovely people and very close to Jane and their journey, 0:06:27.542 --> 0:06:32.822 which in some ways I've tracked was really interesting. The 0:06:32.862 --> 0:06:34.582 media was pretty good, but they had a dealing with 0:06:34.622 --> 0:06:39.022 the media very early on, which shows you how we 0:06:39.102 --> 0:06:42.462 can get it so wrong. Everyone wanted, including the police, 0:06:42.502 --> 0:06:47.662 to keep this at the forefront, and often parents and 0:06:47.702 --> 0:06:53.422 loved ones who may wish to grieve privately are encouraged 0:06:53.422 --> 0:06:58.302 by police to go public because they want witnesses, they 0:06:58.382 --> 0:07:02.542 want people to understand, and they even want to get 0:07:02.622 --> 0:07:08.302 to associates of the crooks. So presenting the relatives to 0:07:08.542 --> 0:07:11.942 open their veins publicly is the hope that that will 0:07:12.302 --> 0:07:15.542 spark someone to say, well, you know what, I've never 0:07:15.582 --> 0:07:19.662 come forward before, but I will. So John and Helen 0:07:20.182 --> 0:07:22.222 were doing that, and then you know, one day they 0:07:22.342 --> 0:07:24.182 sort of get a knock on the door and it's 0:07:24.182 --> 0:07:28.022 a reporter from a particular newspaper who's looking to freshen 0:07:28.262 --> 0:07:32.422 up the story and then said we'd like a new photo. 0:07:33.662 --> 0:07:37.822 And these greeting parents go okay, and the reporter, young knaves, 0:07:37.822 --> 0:07:42.022 said and can you hurry up, I'm on deadline. Yeah, 0:07:42.062 --> 0:07:44.542 And you know these sort of things, you know, when 0:07:44.782 --> 0:07:48.702 you and I write stuff in this space, I always 0:07:49.182 --> 0:07:52.542 think of the story and thinking it may be the 0:07:52.622 --> 0:07:57.822 last story in a scrapbook. Get by a family to 0:07:57.942 --> 0:08:03.182 remind them of their daughter, their son, wife, husband, father, mother, 0:08:04.062 --> 0:08:04.622 get it right. 0:08:05.422 --> 0:08:07.382 Well, door knocks, to be honest, which is what we 0:08:07.422 --> 0:08:09.262 call those in the industry, or the reason I stopped 0:08:09.302 --> 0:08:12.062 on the road reporting. I found them harrowing to. 0:08:12.062 --> 0:08:13.502 Do my day. 0:08:13.502 --> 0:08:17.142 They were called intrusions. And I remember at a newspaper 0:08:17.782 --> 0:08:21.022 we had a young female reporter who is really good, 0:08:22.342 --> 0:08:24.702 and there was a tendency to go to her all 0:08:24.742 --> 0:08:27.702 the time to do this, and I would go to 0:08:27.742 --> 0:08:30.822 the management. So you just can't do this. You just 0:08:30.862 --> 0:08:33.062 can't have the one person doing this all the time. 0:08:33.702 --> 0:08:37.982 It's too traumatic. Now I'm lucky, and for a long 0:08:38.022 --> 0:08:41.422 period of time, I would have been so young the 0:08:41.502 --> 0:08:47.502 last time I cold called. So in these cases I 0:08:47.542 --> 0:08:50.302 would go to the police and they would go to 0:08:50.342 --> 0:08:53.742 the family and they would say right there or wrongly, 0:08:54.262 --> 0:08:56.942 this reporter, we think will give you a fair go. 0:08:57.542 --> 0:09:01.062 But they were always given the choice. They never were 0:09:01.102 --> 0:09:04.702 fronted with a person, so it would be arranged in 0:09:05.982 --> 0:09:13.262 a much more civil but it's always the hair. And 0:09:13.302 --> 0:09:16.422 there was the case where there was a lovely woman, 0:09:16.542 --> 0:09:19.702 Sarah McDermott, who went missing and she was murdered and 0:09:19.742 --> 0:09:22.422 her body was never found. And I went out to 0:09:22.462 --> 0:09:26.702 see the parents and I gravitated to the dad and 0:09:26.942 --> 0:09:30.262 there was almost an unspoken agreement that we were going 0:09:30.302 --> 0:09:34.102 to be very superficial. He was speaking of the case 0:09:34.982 --> 0:09:37.942 almost as a third party. This is what happened. She 0:09:38.062 --> 0:09:40.902 did this, She hopped on the train, she got here, 0:09:41.462 --> 0:09:44.502 and he burst into tears. I was with a female 0:09:44.622 --> 0:09:49.102 photographer and he said, I'm so sorry. The light just 0:09:49.222 --> 0:09:52.822 hit your blonde hair as it would hit my Sarah. 0:09:53.742 --> 0:09:57.262 It's an important reminder, isn't it, to keep not just 0:09:57.302 --> 0:10:01.382 the victims, but the families front of mind when we 0:10:01.382 --> 0:10:05.062 talk about these stories. Let's talk about the investigation into 0:10:05.182 --> 0:10:08.702 Jane's murder, because obviously the first place to look is family, 0:10:08.862 --> 0:10:12.542 who were all quickly cleared, so husband, parents, you know, 0:10:12.582 --> 0:10:16.142 that's just process. And then they started looking into a 0:10:16.182 --> 0:10:19.982 serving police officer that had links to the family. Why 0:10:19.982 --> 0:10:22.022 were the police interested in him? What did they uncover? 0:10:22.822 --> 0:10:25.262 Well, the first thing to know is that a murder 0:10:25.342 --> 0:10:29.622 victim has no secrets when you're alive. We've all got 0:10:29.662 --> 0:10:33.542 locked doors, every one of us, but the police have 0:10:33.582 --> 0:10:37.182 a skeleton key, and so when he had gone, those 0:10:37.222 --> 0:10:42.342 doors are open. So this police officer had for a 0:10:42.342 --> 0:10:44.582 period of time worked with John the father. 0:10:44.782 --> 0:10:46.462 He was a butcher who had a shop. 0:10:46.942 --> 0:10:52.422 So the cop knew Jane and he became obsessed with Jane. 0:10:53.022 --> 0:10:57.502 So they found some letters which connected this fellow. They 0:10:57.542 --> 0:11:01.902 went and they found that he tried to buy a 0:11:01.942 --> 0:11:05.502 funeral plot next to where Jane was to be. I 0:11:05.542 --> 0:11:07.622 think his computer code was her. 0:11:07.582 --> 0:11:08.262 Date of birth. 0:11:09.142 --> 0:11:13.222 There was like a a shrine tour in the house. 0:11:13.822 --> 0:11:20.262 He broadly fitted the description of the gunman you're thinking 0:11:20.342 --> 0:11:24.182 of this guy, and in police terms, he'd never been 0:11:24.262 --> 0:11:28.022 at the sharp end, so it wasn't like he knew gangsters, 0:11:28.422 --> 0:11:32.702 it wasn't like the gun used was a service revolver, 0:11:32.782 --> 0:11:35.422 so there was a couple of holes there. But he 0:11:35.502 --> 0:11:38.502 was then asked to mend a lineup, which he refused. 0:11:39.222 --> 0:11:43.862 He refused to give DNA and largely wouldn't answer question, 0:11:43.982 --> 0:11:46.982 so that naturally it raised your suspicion. It would certainly 0:11:47.062 --> 0:11:50.622 raise mond. So after a period of time they gave 0:11:50.742 --> 0:11:57.622 him a light detector, which is not admissible but good intelligence. 0:11:58.382 --> 0:12:01.742 And he was asked the question, because you never asked 0:12:01.742 --> 0:12:05.542 on the light detector, did you murder? So the question 0:12:05.702 --> 0:12:10.142 was are you responsible for the death of Jane the 0:12:10.182 --> 0:12:12.302 good Dove? And he said no, and of course it 0:12:12.502 --> 0:12:16.982 red lines, so they go he's lying. It took years 0:12:17.582 --> 0:12:21.862 to find out. He was asked, well, once they knew 0:12:21.862 --> 0:12:23.902 he didn't do it, I said, what was that about? 0:12:24.622 --> 0:12:32.942 And he wrongly believed that Mark the husband, had found 0:12:32.942 --> 0:12:38.422 out about this guy and had killed Jane, so he 0:12:38.502 --> 0:12:39.502 felt responsible. 0:12:40.342 --> 0:12:43.502 So that was why it came back as being false. 0:12:44.422 --> 0:12:47.022 When in fact he had nothing to do with it. 0:12:47.062 --> 0:12:48.982 As Mark had nothing to. 0:12:48.942 --> 0:12:53.222 Do with it, You received a phone call at work 0:12:53.462 --> 0:12:58.662 a few days after Jane was murdered, which was fascinating. 0:12:59.062 --> 0:13:01.382 Tell us about what you were told in that call. 0:13:02.302 --> 0:13:05.422 So this is headline news, and I get a phone 0:13:05.422 --> 0:13:10.062 call from someone who had a colorful background. He ran 0:13:10.142 --> 0:13:14.022 peat shops and he had a background in butchery. And 0:13:14.302 --> 0:13:18.582 there was a lawyer by the name of Philip Peters, 0:13:19.222 --> 0:13:23.862 and Philip Peters had enlisted this fella because Peters hated 0:13:24.822 --> 0:13:27.262 a crooked by the name of Peter Kippriy. So the 0:13:27.342 --> 0:13:31.182 plan was to abduct kippri take him to a farmhouse 0:13:31.222 --> 0:13:36.342 in Sinnanad, and then torture him to get some money, 0:13:36.822 --> 0:13:41.542 and then kill him and dismember him. Now, the person 0:13:41.542 --> 0:13:46.782 who rang me, and we'll call him John, John actually 0:13:46.822 --> 0:13:49.582 worked for the police in the end, so he was 0:13:50.022 --> 0:13:54.342 like used as effectively an undercover. So he goes along 0:13:54.382 --> 0:13:56.862 with his plan. One of the reasons the story is 0:13:57.062 --> 0:14:00.502 stuck with me is that they got the dummy that 0:14:00.582 --> 0:14:04.862 was used in the Fast Forward television program. So the 0:14:04.902 --> 0:14:07.822 police got that and put it in the boot of 0:14:07.902 --> 0:14:13.342 John's car, and they arranged this meeting in a sort 0:14:13.342 --> 0:14:17.982 of a quadrangle, and Peters was brought there by John, 0:14:18.062 --> 0:14:21.622 and he opened the boot to show the body, which 0:14:21.702 --> 0:14:25.182 was the Fast Forward dummy shut it and then the 0:14:25.182 --> 0:14:31.462 police arrive, Sorons all set up. They arrest John obviously 0:14:31.822 --> 0:14:34.542 that's a trick, and Peters and they put them in 0:14:34.582 --> 0:14:39.662 a blue car where Peters makes certain ambitions. Peter's is 0:14:39.782 --> 0:14:46.262 charged and the charges are pleaded down, very much down, 0:14:46.782 --> 0:14:49.342 and he does some jail time, but he meets some 0:14:49.462 --> 0:14:51.142 crooks inside. 0:14:52.382 --> 0:14:54.102 So what did John say when he called you? 0:14:54.902 --> 0:14:56.742 He says, the hair on the back of her neck 0:14:56.782 --> 0:15:00.702 has stood up over that sheiler in Ndri And I said, 0:15:00.742 --> 0:15:04.582 what he may? He said, she's got the blonde bob 0:15:05.342 --> 0:15:11.022 and she is a spit for Carmel Kipri, Peter Kipriy wife. 0:15:11.542 --> 0:15:14.222 And I go, yes, I what he says. Don't you 0:15:14.302 --> 0:15:18.542 know they both live in Uriel Street. So, being lazy, 0:15:18.902 --> 0:15:23.302 I persuaded Andrew Ruhle, who worked at the age with 0:15:23.382 --> 0:15:26.542 mey to do the hard work and to go out 0:15:26.782 --> 0:15:29.702 to Mirror Street, which he did. And he went to 0:15:30.342 --> 0:15:36.342 the Kippri's house and it was three from the corner 0:15:36.822 --> 0:15:41.462 in Nedri in Mirror Street. James was three from the corner. 0:15:42.502 --> 0:15:47.782 And Andrew saw that the four wheel drive of the Kippers 0:15:48.502 --> 0:15:53.902 was backed into the driveway, and he saw certain security, 0:15:53.702 --> 0:15:56.382 and Andrew being Andrew knocked on the door and spoke 0:15:56.462 --> 0:15:59.182 to Carmel, and Carmel said, yeah, it really could have 0:15:59.222 --> 0:16:03.782 been for me. And they had their own little code. 0:16:03.862 --> 0:16:06.342 You know, this is before texting and so on, so 0:16:06.662 --> 0:16:10.622 they had a particular whistle, so they whistle to say 0:16:10.822 --> 0:16:15.462 it's mate. And Peterkipriy had a phone book full of 0:16:15.542 --> 0:16:19.502 enemies and so he had started the number of people. 0:16:19.622 --> 0:16:23.462 So a lot of people wanted him dead. But I 0:16:23.542 --> 0:16:26.102 went to the police and said, don't you see the 0:16:26.142 --> 0:16:29.902 connection here? And of course they knew, but they were 0:16:29.902 --> 0:16:33.382 pretty much more about the Copper, so they just ignored it. 0:16:33.542 --> 0:16:37.702 They went down that track in all these sort of tregies. 0:16:37.742 --> 0:16:42.742 When they finally cleared him, that is the copper And 0:16:42.862 --> 0:16:44.942 so what's the next thing. Well, let's go and have 0:16:44.982 --> 0:16:47.702 a look at Peti kipri So they go through it 0:16:47.702 --> 0:16:51.302 all and they find some stuff out and there was 0:16:51.622 --> 0:16:55.942 a crook by the name of Mordy, Stephen Mordy, and 0:16:56.062 --> 0:16:59.022 he was a Biki and he'd been acquitted of the murder. 0:16:59.702 --> 0:17:03.742 So now we backtrack and we see that there was 0:17:03.782 --> 0:17:08.542 a fella in jail with Filip Peters who was bikie 0:17:08.622 --> 0:17:13.302 connected to Mordy Gang, which was in Geelong. So the 0:17:13.302 --> 0:17:18.462 theory was the idea was formed in jail and that 0:17:19.062 --> 0:17:24.702 this middleman went to Morty. What we do know is 0:17:24.782 --> 0:17:29.542 that after the mistaken identity hit, Mordy was beaten severely 0:17:30.462 --> 0:17:33.702 within the biking chapter. We suspect that that's because he 0:17:33.782 --> 0:17:41.222 got it wrong. Mordy devolves into alcohol and drugs and dies, 0:17:41.662 --> 0:17:45.982 so there is a link gone. The police keep working 0:17:46.822 --> 0:17:52.542 on this case and they find the person that they 0:17:52.662 --> 0:17:58.422 believe is the person who stole the car, fellow called Reynolds, 0:17:58.622 --> 0:18:03.542 who was a mate of Mordy. So they decided to 0:18:03.542 --> 0:18:06.622 pick him up from memory on a Monday in two 0:18:06.662 --> 0:18:10.582 thousand and four and plut me down. He died as 0:18:10.582 --> 0:18:15.382 an abating accident that weekend on the Barwan River near 0:18:15.422 --> 0:18:21.942 the Great Ocean Road. And Jane's parents really cut through 0:18:21.982 --> 0:18:24.382 this because we were going through the Underworld War at 0:18:24.422 --> 0:18:28.222 the time and they were saying, don't you think it's 0:18:28.302 --> 0:18:32.222 wrong that all the resources or the things like listening 0:18:32.222 --> 0:18:35.062 devices and trackers and all these sort of things were 0:18:35.102 --> 0:18:38.422 being used by the Piranha Task Force looking at the 0:18:38.422 --> 0:18:44.142 death of gangsters when their blameless daughter is murdered and 0:18:44.142 --> 0:18:48.062 by the time they shift, it's too late. And you think, 0:18:48.102 --> 0:18:51.262 when not just the car thief, he's not even the driver. 0:18:51.462 --> 0:18:55.822 You think, if they've got to him, would he not 0:18:55.902 --> 0:18:56.822 have been offered a deal? 0:18:57.742 --> 0:18:58.702 Could he have rolled over? 0:18:59.582 --> 0:19:03.662 And could he have given us the names of the 0:19:03.662 --> 0:19:12.142 people who actually ordered the hit? And that chapter was gone, 0:19:12.342 --> 0:19:15.982 and so John and Helen had to live with that. 0:19:17.022 --> 0:19:21.222 And then John came to me and said, I want 0:19:21.302 --> 0:19:26.262 a million dollar reward for Jane. I said the sort 0:19:26.262 --> 0:19:29.262 of money at the time was fifty or one hundred thousand, 0:19:30.142 --> 0:19:33.102 and I couldn't say that to John. They're not going 0:19:33.142 --> 0:19:36.022 to do this for your daughter and not other people. 0:19:36.662 --> 0:19:39.222 So I said, well, what about we get an idea 0:19:39.302 --> 0:19:43.022 together where there's a sort of special class of murders, 0:19:43.022 --> 0:19:48.262 and these are murders such as Jane's, where you believe 0:19:48.342 --> 0:19:52.702 that you're very close and money can be the tipping point. 0:19:53.582 --> 0:19:56.702 So not for every case. Now it is for every case, 0:19:56.702 --> 0:20:02.182 but back then it wasn't. So I went to an advisor, 0:20:02.302 --> 0:20:06.822 to the premiere, Steve Brax. I went to a woman, 0:20:06.942 --> 0:20:10.022 his adviser, Jane Wilson, who had been previously had worked 0:20:10.702 --> 0:20:14.302 rounds with us, and done courts. She was actually married 0:20:14.342 --> 0:20:16.902 to a homicide detective as well, so she actually got it. 0:20:17.822 --> 0:20:20.222 And I put this idea of a million dollars for 0:20:20.262 --> 0:20:24.062 a class, and she pushed it to the premier, who 0:20:24.942 --> 0:20:27.822 bravely took it on. Now, these finance people were saying, 0:20:27.822 --> 0:20:31.062 this is crazy, because you know, this is the liability 0:20:31.102 --> 0:20:34.182 and here's the paper clips, and this is why we 0:20:34.222 --> 0:20:34.982 think it wouldn't work. 0:20:35.022 --> 0:20:35.982 And he pushed through. 0:20:35.822 --> 0:20:40.622 It and it didn't help John and Helen, but it 0:20:40.662 --> 0:20:44.702 did solve murders. And so there was a case of 0:20:45.182 --> 0:20:49.942 Messina hal Vargas who was stabbed to death tending her 0:20:50.062 --> 0:20:54.462 grandmother's grave at Faulkner, and everyone knew it was the 0:20:54.542 --> 0:20:57.542 serial killer predature past, but there wasn't enough information. Well, 0:20:57.582 --> 0:21:01.582 once that million dollar reward, which was John's idea, once 0:21:01.622 --> 0:21:04.822 that million dollar reward was put up, they got the 0:21:04.822 --> 0:21:09.182 witnesses they need and he was convicted. And that all 0:21:09.222 --> 0:21:14.982 came from Jane's father not letting the case go. 0:21:15.862 --> 0:21:19.262 How does that feel for him, knowing that he's helped 0:21:19.262 --> 0:21:21.822 all these other people, but you selfishly would be so 0:21:22.302 --> 0:21:24.502 frustrated that it's done nothing for your own case. 0:21:25.622 --> 0:21:28.102 Well, you'd probably have to ask John, But I think 0:21:28.182 --> 0:21:32.022 the feeling is a moderk McBride and a great deal 0:21:32.062 --> 0:21:32.662 of resentment. 0:21:33.062 --> 0:21:33.462 Why is it? 0:21:33.462 --> 0:21:40.182 It may and they always want the case kept open. 0:21:41.382 --> 0:21:43.862 All of this movement that we've been talking about in 0:21:43.982 --> 0:21:48.622 Jane's case happened, you know, about five years afterwards in 0:21:48.702 --> 0:21:51.942 terms of Mardi and Reynolds died two thousand and one, 0:21:51.982 --> 0:21:55.102 two thousand and four, and then this million dollar award 0:21:56.062 --> 0:21:59.662 around five years after the murder. It's now been twenty 0:21:59.702 --> 0:22:02.582 seven years. Is that case still open? Have we had 0:22:02.622 --> 0:22:05.542 anything happen in the last fifteen or so years to 0:22:05.582 --> 0:22:06.222 help the case? 0:22:06.782 --> 0:22:10.782 The case is always open because we've still we all 0:22:10.862 --> 0:22:14.782 got potential things that can happen, and we've also got 0:22:14.942 --> 0:22:21.102 the driver. What happens is alibi witnesses, fall out, marriages 0:22:21.222 --> 0:22:25.422 break up, people who know the truth, find God or 0:22:25.782 --> 0:22:30.102 just decide that they can't carry the burden. So that's 0:22:30.262 --> 0:22:32.422 such a cliche you've heard so many times, but often 0:22:32.462 --> 0:22:37.222 it's one phone call. And what's different now is the 0:22:37.262 --> 0:22:41.662 way cold cases are done in Australia, and we're one 0:22:41.702 --> 0:22:43.782 of the few nations that do it in that regard 0:22:44.342 --> 0:22:48.902 the cold case murder. So certainly in Victorian would imagine 0:22:49.022 --> 0:22:51.502 in New South Wales you have a list of these 0:22:51.542 --> 0:22:56.782 cold cases and they have been great on what level 0:22:56.822 --> 0:23:01.222 of solvability and the age and so on, and then 0:23:01.542 --> 0:23:07.382 you have a look and it could be something like DNA. Now, 0:23:07.622 --> 0:23:10.902 for example, in Victoria, we've got what's called the Freezer Files, 0:23:11.742 --> 0:23:15.342 which a group of scientists for insic scientists. Obviously they 0:23:15.422 --> 0:23:18.782 knew what DNA was and they were well aware that 0:23:19.142 --> 0:23:24.102 the capacity to test for DNA was coming. So even 0:23:24.142 --> 0:23:28.622 though you could not test, they were taking exhibits and 0:23:28.622 --> 0:23:32.502 freezing them in the hope that in one day it 0:23:32.542 --> 0:23:36.542 would work. And there have been multiple cases, mostly rapes, 0:23:37.102 --> 0:23:40.582 that have been solved well down the track. There was 0:23:40.582 --> 0:23:41.902 a case where he was just looking at the other 0:23:41.982 --> 0:23:48.342 day where sixteen years after the event a fellow was 0:23:48.422 --> 0:23:52.302 caught doing a burglary in Queensland and that linked him 0:23:52.382 --> 0:23:53.582 to the rape in Shepherd. 0:23:54.422 --> 0:23:57.742 And even DNA. You know, we think of DNA. 0:23:57.502 --> 0:24:02.902 As a stationary piece of evidence, but the methods get 0:24:02.902 --> 0:24:05.702 better and better and better, so you can test something 0:24:06.182 --> 0:24:10.622 and not get a result ten years ago, and you 0:24:10.662 --> 0:24:13.702 will get a result in five years from the same 0:24:14.182 --> 0:24:15.022 effective sample. 0:24:15.662 --> 0:24:17.782 So crooks better watch their backs. 0:24:18.262 --> 0:24:26.862 Yeah, it's a slow process, but science catches them up. 0:24:26.902 --> 0:24:29.262 Next, we move on from the case of Jane fir 0:24:29.302 --> 0:24:32.502 Gooddove as I ask John about other cases of mistaken 0:24:32.542 --> 0:24:36.342 identity and whether, after nearly fifty years as a crime reporter, 0:24:36.702 --> 0:24:45.262 any case shocks him. Cases of mistaken identity, like we're 0:24:45.302 --> 0:24:48.902 talking about what we believe happened in the case of Jane, 0:24:49.462 --> 0:24:55.702 how common is that, particularly in Australia, more often than 0:24:55.782 --> 0:24:56.342 you would like. 0:24:56.662 --> 0:25:00.102 With the knowledge that hitmen biromart stupid. 0:25:00.142 --> 0:25:02.302 Which is not what you would think because hitman, you know, 0:25:02.342 --> 0:25:04.822 when you watch TV movies, they're usually kind of sold 0:25:04.862 --> 0:25:09.182 to us as the ultimate criminal, the really smart and 0:25:10.102 --> 0:25:11.182 catch related ones. 0:25:12.062 --> 0:25:15.382 It's funny because to pass and I was talking to 0:25:15.422 --> 0:25:17.982 the then head of the homicide squad and saying what 0:25:18.022 --> 0:25:21.302 a monster he was, and he had a different view. 0:25:21.422 --> 0:25:25.382 He said, these people they're dreadful and they're dangerous and 0:25:25.382 --> 0:25:27.822 they should never be let out. But I feel sorry 0:25:27.862 --> 0:25:31.422 for them, he said, because they're driven by evil compulsions 0:25:31.462 --> 0:25:35.382 that they can't control. He said, do you reckon if 0:25:35.422 --> 0:25:39.382 there was a queue in life between being an obsessive, 0:25:39.502 --> 0:25:45.742 violent serial killer or a normal person who can have loving, 0:25:45.942 --> 0:25:48.662 long lasting relations, which queue do you think everyone would 0:25:48.702 --> 0:25:52.302 jump in? So he's saying, these people don't have a choice. 0:25:52.342 --> 0:25:55.182 He said, the people I had to test hit me 0:25:56.342 --> 0:25:58.702 people who will go and kill someone and then come 0:25:58.742 --> 0:26:02.302 home for a roslamb dinner. So they're the ones he 0:26:02.382 --> 0:26:05.142 to test, and we tend to put them up as 0:26:05.222 --> 0:26:09.782 cool and calm. There was a case against who was 0:26:09.782 --> 0:26:12.142 set up to be hit. But he lived in a 0:26:12.302 --> 0:26:15.742 sort of a new development which was a little bit 0:26:15.742 --> 0:26:17.902 of a lego land, you know, one of those places 0:26:17.902 --> 0:26:20.142 where every house was the same and you're only allowed 0:26:20.142 --> 0:26:24.382 to paint them one of three ways, so all the 0:26:24.422 --> 0:26:28.062 houses are the same. So this bloke, there'd been a 0:26:28.382 --> 0:26:30.302 go at him once, so all he did was starting 0:26:30.382 --> 0:26:33.302