1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:15,542 Speaker 1: You're listening to a mother and Mia podcast. Mama Mea 2 00:00:15,622 --> 00:00:19,422 Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast 3 00:00:19,622 --> 00:00:28,542 Speaker 1: was recorded on It's just after three point thirty PM 4 00:00:28,582 --> 00:00:31,662 Speaker 1: on a spring afternoon in Melbourne in nineteen ninety seven 5 00:00:32,422 --> 00:00:34,822 Speaker 1: and Jane Thurgodove is pulled into the driveway of her 6 00:00:34,902 --> 00:00:39,102 Speaker 1: Muriel Street home, her three kids, aged eleven, six and 7 00:00:39,182 --> 00:00:41,502 Speaker 1: three and tucked into the backseat of the family car. 8 00:00:41,822 --> 00:00:45,542 Speaker 1: After their respective days at school and preschool, time to 9 00:00:45,542 --> 00:00:48,622 Speaker 1: get inside and wind down ahead of the normal evening routine. 10 00:00:48,982 --> 00:00:51,462 Speaker 1: It's Oaks Day, so there's a real buzz around town. 11 00:00:51,942 --> 00:00:53,542 Speaker 1: Maybe they'll still be able to catch some of the 12 00:00:53,622 --> 00:00:57,702 Speaker 1: races and fashion on the TV. But before Jane has 13 00:00:57,742 --> 00:01:01,342 Speaker 1: time to finish her next thought, a stolen commodore pulls 14 00:01:01,382 --> 00:01:04,622 Speaker 1: in behind her vehicle, blocking her in. A pot bellied 15 00:01:04,622 --> 00:01:10,142 Speaker 1: gunman starts chasing her. She shot once twice at point 16 00:01:10,142 --> 00:01:13,662 Speaker 1: blank range. Her kids watch on as she dies in 17 00:01:13,702 --> 00:01:17,742 Speaker 1: front of them on the driveway. For years, police are 18 00:01:17,742 --> 00:01:20,262 Speaker 1: convinced she was killed by a man with an obsession, 19 00:01:20,982 --> 00:01:24,582 Speaker 1: but they were wrong. This murder of a young Melbourne 20 00:01:24,582 --> 00:01:36,542 Speaker 1: mother is believed to be a devastating case of mistaken identity. 21 00:01:43,382 --> 00:01:46,862 Speaker 1: Jane was just an average mum living in an average street, 22 00:01:47,182 --> 00:01:50,502 Speaker 1: married to an average guy, but her murder was like 23 00:01:50,582 --> 00:01:54,542 Speaker 1: something out of a gangland war, executed in broad daylight 24 00:01:54,622 --> 00:01:59,142 Speaker 1: in front of her kids. Twenty seven years on, so 25 00:01:59,262 --> 00:02:02,942 Speaker 1: many questions remain in this case, and it's one journalist 26 00:02:02,982 --> 00:02:05,742 Speaker 1: John Sylvester has been keeping a close eye on from 27 00:02:05,782 --> 00:02:10,942 Speaker 1: the start. John is Australia's longest serving crime reporter the Beat. 28 00:02:10,982 --> 00:02:14,462 Speaker 1: Since nineteen seventy eight. He has written or co authored 29 00:02:14,582 --> 00:02:18,342 Speaker 1: over thirty books. His latest is called Dark City. John 30 00:02:18,422 --> 00:02:31,622 Speaker 1: joins us now Who was Jane so good Dove to 31 00:02:31,702 --> 00:02:33,022 Speaker 1: her friends and loved ones? 32 00:02:33,862 --> 00:02:37,182 Speaker 2: Jane Thurgodove was a woman in her early thirties. She 33 00:02:37,342 --> 00:02:40,822 Speaker 2: was married and the mother of three. She lived in 34 00:02:40,982 --> 00:02:44,342 Speaker 2: the Melbourne suburb of Knitry in a street called Muriel Street, 35 00:02:45,062 --> 00:02:48,462 Speaker 2: really well liked, close to her parents and her sister, 36 00:02:49,342 --> 00:02:53,222 Speaker 2: and was seen I suppose she want to put the 37 00:02:53,222 --> 00:02:56,582 Speaker 2: cliche in as a suburban mum. She was living a 38 00:02:56,782 --> 00:03:00,662 Speaker 2: happy and full life and she wasn't known to the 39 00:03:00,702 --> 00:03:03,422 Speaker 2: general public, and as is so often the case in 40 00:03:03,462 --> 00:03:06,822 Speaker 2: these treatedies, she ends up being defined by her death, 41 00:03:06,902 --> 00:03:07,622 Speaker 2: not her life. 42 00:03:08,622 --> 00:03:11,982 Speaker 1: Well, she was shot dead in her driveway on November seven, 43 00:03:12,102 --> 00:03:15,662 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, and the description given was of a 44 00:03:15,702 --> 00:03:19,382 Speaker 1: pot bellied man in a holden commodore who was able 45 00:03:19,502 --> 00:03:21,182 Speaker 1: to give those details. 46 00:03:20,702 --> 00:03:23,582 Speaker 2: To police, A couple of passive iz and certainly when 47 00:03:23,622 --> 00:03:26,702 Speaker 2: one of the witnesses was quite young, as you can imagine, 48 00:03:26,702 --> 00:03:32,062 Speaker 2: in just a quiet suburban street. And really again you've 49 00:03:32,062 --> 00:03:35,222 Speaker 2: got to remember CCTV things like that, which is now 50 00:03:35,262 --> 00:03:39,662 Speaker 2: just routine, wasn't there, So you rely on the eyewitnesses, 51 00:03:40,062 --> 00:03:43,222 Speaker 2: and very quickly a car was found not too far 52 00:03:43,302 --> 00:03:46,942 Speaker 2: away burnt out. Now that was the first telltale sign. 53 00:03:46,982 --> 00:03:50,062 Speaker 2: Hang on a minute, that's heading into that sort of 54 00:03:50,102 --> 00:03:53,622 Speaker 2: professional world to get rid of a stolen car that 55 00:03:53,662 --> 00:03:56,542 Speaker 2: had been stooped away for some time. So it wasn't 56 00:03:56,622 --> 00:03:59,942 Speaker 2: just joy riding. It had been set there, so you 57 00:03:59,942 --> 00:04:02,662 Speaker 2: would know that a second vehicle would have been present 58 00:04:02,942 --> 00:04:06,022 Speaker 2: from there. These days, of course, and you've seen it 59 00:04:06,062 --> 00:04:11,262 Speaker 2: a thousand times on television, you see that handover vias CCTV. 60 00:04:11,902 --> 00:04:15,942 Speaker 2: In those days, it didn't exist. So almost the physical 61 00:04:16,022 --> 00:04:19,542 Speaker 2: forensic trial ended with that burnt out car. 62 00:04:20,982 --> 00:04:23,982 Speaker 1: Were those few witnesses able to place anyone else at 63 00:04:23,982 --> 00:04:27,262 Speaker 1: the scene. Was the gunman alone had a driver. 64 00:04:27,822 --> 00:04:30,942 Speaker 2: And so again you know, we're not looking at a 65 00:04:30,982 --> 00:04:34,582 Speaker 2: lone wolf. This is heading what's going on here. But 66 00:04:34,662 --> 00:04:38,742 Speaker 2: it was so strange, of course, because it smells in 67 00:04:38,782 --> 00:04:42,142 Speaker 2: a way like a professional hit. But this is a 68 00:04:42,182 --> 00:04:47,782 Speaker 2: woman with no connections to the underworld. And that becomes 69 00:04:47,862 --> 00:04:53,822 Speaker 2: quite interesting later because Jane becomes subject of a number 70 00:04:53,862 --> 00:04:56,342 Speaker 2: of rumors she was having an affair with a gangster. 71 00:04:56,862 --> 00:04:59,102 Speaker 2: She was a witness at an armed robbery, and I 72 00:04:59,102 --> 00:05:03,022 Speaker 2: think that tells you a lot about us, because the 73 00:05:03,222 --> 00:05:05,782 Speaker 2: idea of a mother being killed in front of her 74 00:05:05,822 --> 00:05:10,582 Speaker 2: children in her front driveway is so horrible. We have 75 00:05:10,622 --> 00:05:13,542 Speaker 2: to find a reason and in the process blame the victim. 76 00:05:13,582 --> 00:05:15,742 Speaker 2: You see, if Jane was on the wrong side of 77 00:05:15,782 --> 00:05:18,902 Speaker 2: the tracks, if Jane had had a relationship with a gangster, 78 00:05:19,222 --> 00:05:23,982 Speaker 2: well that means my wife, my daughter, they're safe because 79 00:05:24,102 --> 00:05:28,222 Speaker 2: they're good people. So it's funny how we tend to 80 00:05:28,702 --> 00:05:30,982 Speaker 2: want to blame the victims to get an answer. 81 00:05:31,702 --> 00:05:34,302 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because, like you were saying, she was 82 00:05:34,342 --> 00:05:38,342 Speaker 1: just a normal suburban mum, a normal lossie. And I 83 00:05:38,342 --> 00:05:40,582 Speaker 1: do want to touch on the fact that her children, 84 00:05:40,742 --> 00:05:43,542 Speaker 1: who were all under eleven, the youngest was three. They 85 00:05:43,542 --> 00:05:47,902 Speaker 1: all watched this unfold. Did we hear from them away from. 86 00:05:47,782 --> 00:05:50,702 Speaker 2: The media, kept well away from them for obvious reasons. 87 00:05:51,182 --> 00:05:56,382 Speaker 2: They were really cooperative as kids would be with the police, 88 00:05:56,382 --> 00:05:59,382 Speaker 2: and the police handled that well. And they had a 89 00:05:59,422 --> 00:06:05,302 Speaker 2: strong family unit with Mark the husband, and Jane's parents. 90 00:06:05,902 --> 00:06:09,062 Speaker 1: Well, you have been in touch with the family over 91 00:06:09,062 --> 00:06:13,422 Speaker 1: the years, particularly Jane's parents. How did this crime, what 92 00:06:13,542 --> 00:06:15,942 Speaker 1: happened to Jane impact their lives? 93 00:06:16,542 --> 00:06:22,342 Speaker 2: Well, one can only imagine what happened to them. They're 94 00:06:22,382 --> 00:06:27,302 Speaker 2: lovely people and very close to Jane and their journey, 95 00:06:27,542 --> 00:06:32,822 Speaker 2: which in some ways I've tracked was really interesting. The 96 00:06:32,862 --> 00:06:34,582 Speaker 2: media was pretty good, but they had a dealing with 97 00:06:34,622 --> 00:06:39,022 Speaker 2: the media very early on, which shows you how we 98 00:06:39,102 --> 00:06:42,462 Speaker 2: can get it so wrong. Everyone wanted, including the police, 99 00:06:42,502 --> 00:06:47,662 Speaker 2: to keep this at the forefront, and often parents and 100 00:06:47,702 --> 00:06:53,422 Speaker 2: loved ones who may wish to grieve privately are encouraged 101 00:06:53,422 --> 00:06:58,302 Speaker 2: by police to go public because they want witnesses, they 102 00:06:58,382 --> 00:07:02,542 Speaker 2: want people to understand, and they even want to get 103 00:07:02,622 --> 00:07:08,302 Speaker 2: to associates of the crooks. So presenting the relatives to 104 00:07:08,542 --> 00:07:11,942 Speaker 2: open their veins publicly is the hope that that will 105 00:07:12,302 --> 00:07:15,542 Speaker 2: spark someone to say, well, you know what, I've never 106 00:07:15,582 --> 00:07:19,662 Speaker 2: come forward before, but I will. So John and Helen 107 00:07:20,182 --> 00:07:22,222 Speaker 2: were doing that, and then you know, one day they 108 00:07:22,342 --> 00:07:24,182 Speaker 2: sort of get a knock on the door and it's 109 00:07:24,182 --> 00:07:28,022 Speaker 2: a reporter from a particular newspaper who's looking to freshen 110 00:07:28,262 --> 00:07:32,422 Speaker 2: up the story and then said we'd like a new photo. 111 00:07:33,662 --> 00:07:37,822 Speaker 2: And these greeting parents go okay, and the reporter, young knaves, 112 00:07:37,822 --> 00:07:42,022 Speaker 2: said and can you hurry up, I'm on deadline. Yeah, 113 00:07:42,062 --> 00:07:44,542 Speaker 2: And you know these sort of things, you know, when 114 00:07:44,782 --> 00:07:48,702 Speaker 2: you and I write stuff in this space, I always 115 00:07:49,182 --> 00:07:52,542 Speaker 2: think of the story and thinking it may be the 116 00:07:52,622 --> 00:07:57,822 Speaker 2: last story in a scrapbook. Get by a family to 117 00:07:57,942 --> 00:08:03,182 Speaker 2: remind them of their daughter, their son, wife, husband, father, mother, 118 00:08:04,062 --> 00:08:04,622 Speaker 2: get it right. 119 00:08:05,422 --> 00:08:07,382 Speaker 1: Well, door knocks, to be honest, which is what we 120 00:08:07,422 --> 00:08:09,262 Speaker 1: call those in the industry, or the reason I stopped 121 00:08:09,302 --> 00:08:12,062 Speaker 1: on the road reporting. I found them harrowing to. 122 00:08:12,062 --> 00:08:13,502 Speaker 3: Do my day. 123 00:08:13,502 --> 00:08:17,142 Speaker 2: They were called intrusions. And I remember at a newspaper 124 00:08:17,782 --> 00:08:21,022 Speaker 2: we had a young female reporter who is really good, 125 00:08:22,342 --> 00:08:24,702 Speaker 2: and there was a tendency to go to her all 126 00:08:24,742 --> 00:08:27,702 Speaker 2: the time to do this, and I would go to 127 00:08:27,742 --> 00:08:30,822 Speaker 2: the management. So you just can't do this. You just 128 00:08:30,862 --> 00:08:33,062 Speaker 2: can't have the one person doing this all the time. 129 00:08:33,702 --> 00:08:37,982 Speaker 2: It's too traumatic. Now I'm lucky, and for a long 130 00:08:38,022 --> 00:08:41,422 Speaker 2: period of time, I would have been so young the 131 00:08:41,502 --> 00:08:47,502 Speaker 2: last time I cold called. So in these cases I 132 00:08:47,542 --> 00:08:50,302 Speaker 2: would go to the police and they would go to 133 00:08:50,342 --> 00:08:53,742 Speaker 2: the family and they would say right there or wrongly, 134 00:08:54,262 --> 00:08:56,942 Speaker 2: this reporter, we think will give you a fair go. 135 00:08:57,542 --> 00:09:01,062 Speaker 2: But they were always given the choice. They never were 136 00:09:01,102 --> 00:09:04,702 Speaker 2: fronted with a person, so it would be arranged in 137 00:09:05,982 --> 00:09:13,262 Speaker 2: a much more civil but it's always the hair. And 138 00:09:13,302 --> 00:09:16,422 Speaker 2: there was the case where there was a lovely woman, 139 00:09:16,542 --> 00:09:19,702 Speaker 2: Sarah McDermott, who went missing and she was murdered and 140 00:09:19,742 --> 00:09:22,422 Speaker 2: her body was never found. And I went out to 141 00:09:22,462 --> 00:09:26,702 Speaker 2: see the parents and I gravitated to the dad and 142 00:09:26,942 --> 00:09:30,262 Speaker 2: there was almost an unspoken agreement that we were going 143 00:09:30,302 --> 00:09:34,102 Speaker 2: to be very superficial. He was speaking of the case 144 00:09:34,982 --> 00:09:37,942 Speaker 2: almost as a third party. This is what happened. She 145 00:09:38,062 --> 00:09:40,902 Speaker 2: did this, She hopped on the train, she got here, 146 00:09:41,462 --> 00:09:44,502 Speaker 2: and he burst into tears. I was with a female 147 00:09:44,622 --> 00:09:49,102 Speaker 2: photographer and he said, I'm so sorry. The light just 148 00:09:49,222 --> 00:09:52,822 Speaker 2: hit your blonde hair as it would hit my Sarah. 149 00:09:53,742 --> 00:09:57,262 Speaker 1: It's an important reminder, isn't it, to keep not just 150 00:09:57,302 --> 00:10:01,382 Speaker 1: the victims, but the families front of mind when we 151 00:10:01,382 --> 00:10:05,062 Speaker 1: talk about these stories. Let's talk about the investigation into 152 00:10:05,182 --> 00:10:08,702 Speaker 1: Jane's murder, because obviously the first place to look is family, 153 00:10:08,862 --> 00:10:12,542 Speaker 1: who were all quickly cleared, so husband, parents, you know, 154 00:10:12,582 --> 00:10:16,142 Speaker 1: that's just process. And then they started looking into a 155 00:10:16,182 --> 00:10:19,982 Speaker 1: serving police officer that had links to the family. Why 156 00:10:19,982 --> 00:10:22,022 Speaker 1: were the police interested in him? What did they uncover? 157 00:10:22,822 --> 00:10:25,262 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing to know is that a murder 158 00:10:25,342 --> 00:10:29,622 Speaker 2: victim has no secrets when you're alive. We've all got 159 00:10:29,662 --> 00:10:33,542 Speaker 2: locked doors, every one of us, but the police have 160 00:10:33,582 --> 00:10:37,182 Speaker 2: a skeleton key, and so when he had gone, those 161 00:10:37,222 --> 00:10:42,342 Speaker 2: doors are open. So this police officer had for a 162 00:10:42,342 --> 00:10:44,582 Speaker 2: period of time worked with John the father. 163 00:10:44,782 --> 00:10:46,462 Speaker 3: He was a butcher who had a shop. 164 00:10:46,942 --> 00:10:52,422 Speaker 2: So the cop knew Jane and he became obsessed with Jane. 165 00:10:53,022 --> 00:10:57,502 Speaker 2: So they found some letters which connected this fellow. They 166 00:10:57,542 --> 00:11:01,902 Speaker 2: went and they found that he tried to buy a 167 00:11:01,942 --> 00:11:05,502 Speaker 2: funeral plot next to where Jane was to be. I 168 00:11:05,542 --> 00:11:07,622 Speaker 2: think his computer code was her. 169 00:11:07,582 --> 00:11:08,262 Speaker 3: Date of birth. 170 00:11:09,142 --> 00:11:13,222 Speaker 2: There was like a a shrine tour in the house. 171 00:11:13,822 --> 00:11:20,262 Speaker 2: He broadly fitted the description of the gunman you're thinking 172 00:11:20,342 --> 00:11:24,182 Speaker 2: of this guy, and in police terms, he'd never been 173 00:11:24,262 --> 00:11:28,022 Speaker 2: at the sharp end, so it wasn't like he knew gangsters, 174 00:11:28,422 --> 00:11:32,702 Speaker 2: it wasn't like the gun used was a service revolver, 175 00:11:32,782 --> 00:11:35,422 Speaker 2: so there was a couple of holes there. But he 176 00:11:35,502 --> 00:11:38,502 Speaker 2: was then asked to mend a lineup, which he refused. 177 00:11:39,222 --> 00:11:43,862 Speaker 2: He refused to give DNA and largely wouldn't answer question, 178 00:11:43,982 --> 00:11:46,982 Speaker 2: so that naturally it raised your suspicion. It would certainly 179 00:11:47,062 --> 00:11:50,622 Speaker 2: raise mond. So after a period of time they gave 180 00:11:50,742 --> 00:11:57,622 Speaker 2: him a light detector, which is not admissible but good intelligence. 181 00:11:58,382 --> 00:12:01,742 Speaker 2: And he was asked the question, because you never asked 182 00:12:01,742 --> 00:12:05,542 Speaker 2: on the light detector, did you murder? So the question 183 00:12:05,702 --> 00:12:10,142 Speaker 2: was are you responsible for the death of Jane the 184 00:12:10,182 --> 00:12:12,302 Speaker 2: good Dove? And he said no, and of course it 185 00:12:12,502 --> 00:12:16,982 Speaker 2: red lines, so they go he's lying. It took years 186 00:12:17,582 --> 00:12:21,862 Speaker 2: to find out. He was asked, well, once they knew 187 00:12:21,862 --> 00:12:23,902 Speaker 2: he didn't do it, I said, what was that about? 188 00:12:24,622 --> 00:12:32,942 Speaker 2: And he wrongly believed that Mark the husband, had found 189 00:12:32,942 --> 00:12:38,422 Speaker 2: out about this guy and had killed Jane, so he 190 00:12:38,502 --> 00:12:39,502 Speaker 2: felt responsible. 191 00:12:40,342 --> 00:12:43,502 Speaker 1: So that was why it came back as being false. 192 00:12:44,422 --> 00:12:47,022 Speaker 2: When in fact he had nothing to do with it. 193 00:12:47,062 --> 00:12:48,982 Speaker 2: As Mark had nothing to. 194 00:12:48,942 --> 00:12:53,222 Speaker 1: Do with it, You received a phone call at work 195 00:12:53,462 --> 00:12:58,662 Speaker 1: a few days after Jane was murdered, which was fascinating. 196 00:12:59,062 --> 00:13:01,382 Speaker 1: Tell us about what you were told in that call. 197 00:13:02,302 --> 00:13:05,422 Speaker 2: So this is headline news, and I get a phone 198 00:13:05,422 --> 00:13:10,062 Speaker 2: call from someone who had a colorful background. He ran 199 00:13:10,142 --> 00:13:14,022 Speaker 2: peat shops and he had a background in butchery. And 200 00:13:14,302 --> 00:13:18,582 Speaker 2: there was a lawyer by the name of Philip Peters, 201 00:13:19,222 --> 00:13:23,862 Speaker 2: and Philip Peters had enlisted this fella because Peters hated 202 00:13:24,822 --> 00:13:27,262 Speaker 2: a crooked by the name of Peter Kippriy. So the 203 00:13:27,342 --> 00:13:31,182 Speaker 2: plan was to abduct kippri take him to a farmhouse 204 00:13:31,222 --> 00:13:36,342 Speaker 2: in Sinnanad, and then torture him to get some money, 205 00:13:36,822 --> 00:13:41,542 Speaker 2: and then kill him and dismember him. Now, the person 206 00:13:41,542 --> 00:13:46,782 Speaker 2: who rang me, and we'll call him John, John actually 207 00:13:46,822 --> 00:13:49,582 Speaker 2: worked for the police in the end, so he was 208 00:13:50,022 --> 00:13:54,342 Speaker 2: like used as effectively an undercover. So he goes along 209 00:13:54,382 --> 00:13:56,862 Speaker 2: with his plan. One of the reasons the story is 210 00:13:57,062 --> 00:14:00,502 Speaker 2: stuck with me is that they got the dummy that 211 00:14:00,582 --> 00:14:04,862 Speaker 2: was used in the Fast Forward television program. So the 212 00:14:04,902 --> 00:14:07,822 Speaker 2: police got that and put it in the boot of 213 00:14:07,902 --> 00:14:13,342 Speaker 2: John's car, and they arranged this meeting in a sort 214 00:14:13,342 --> 00:14:17,982 Speaker 2: of a quadrangle, and Peters was brought there by John, 215 00:14:18,062 --> 00:14:21,622 Speaker 2: and he opened the boot to show the body, which 216 00:14:21,702 --> 00:14:25,182 Speaker 2: was the Fast Forward dummy shut it and then the 217 00:14:25,182 --> 00:14:31,462 Speaker 2: police arrive, Sorons all set up. They arrest John obviously 218 00:14:31,822 --> 00:14:34,542 Speaker 2: that's a trick, and Peters and they put them in 219 00:14:34,582 --> 00:14:39,662 Speaker 2: a blue car where Peters makes certain ambitions. Peter's is 220 00:14:39,782 --> 00:14:46,262 Speaker 2: charged and the charges are pleaded down, very much down, 221 00:14:46,782 --> 00:14:49,342 Speaker 2: and he does some jail time, but he meets some 222 00:14:49,462 --> 00:14:51,142 Speaker 2: crooks inside. 223 00:14:52,382 --> 00:14:54,102 Speaker 1: So what did John say when he called you? 224 00:14:54,902 --> 00:14:56,742 Speaker 2: He says, the hair on the back of her neck 225 00:14:56,782 --> 00:15:00,702 Speaker 2: has stood up over that sheiler in Ndri And I said, 226 00:15:00,742 --> 00:15:04,582 Speaker 2: what he may? He said, she's got the blonde bob 227 00:15:05,342 --> 00:15:11,022 Speaker 2: and she is a spit for Carmel Kipri, Peter Kipriy wife. 228 00:15:11,542 --> 00:15:14,222 Speaker 2: And I go, yes, I what he says. Don't you 229 00:15:14,302 --> 00:15:18,542 Speaker 2: know they both live in Uriel Street. So, being lazy, 230 00:15:18,902 --> 00:15:23,302 Speaker 2: I persuaded Andrew Ruhle, who worked at the age with 231 00:15:23,382 --> 00:15:26,542 Speaker 2: mey to do the hard work and to go out 232 00:15:26,782 --> 00:15:29,702 Speaker 2: to Mirror Street, which he did. And he went to 233 00:15:30,342 --> 00:15:36,342 Speaker 2: the Kippri's house and it was three from the corner 234 00:15:36,822 --> 00:15:41,462 Speaker 2: in Nedri in Mirror Street. James was three from the corner. 235 00:15:42,502 --> 00:15:47,782 Speaker 2: And Andrew saw that the four wheel drive of the Kippers 236 00:15:48,502 --> 00:15:53,902 Speaker 2: was backed into the driveway, and he saw certain security, 237 00:15:53,702 --> 00:15:56,382 Speaker 2: and Andrew being Andrew knocked on the door and spoke 238 00:15:56,462 --> 00:15:59,182 Speaker 2: to Carmel, and Carmel said, yeah, it really could have 239 00:15:59,222 --> 00:16:03,782 Speaker 2: been for me. And they had their own little code. 240 00:16:03,862 --> 00:16:06,342 Speaker 2: You know, this is before texting and so on, so 241 00:16:06,662 --> 00:16:10,622 Speaker 2: they had a particular whistle, so they whistle to say 242 00:16:10,822 --> 00:16:15,462 Speaker 2: it's mate. And Peterkipriy had a phone book full of 243 00:16:15,542 --> 00:16:19,502 Speaker 2: enemies and so he had started the number of people. 244 00:16:19,622 --> 00:16:23,462 Speaker 2: So a lot of people wanted him dead. But I 245 00:16:23,542 --> 00:16:26,102 Speaker 2: went to the police and said, don't you see the 246 00:16:26,142 --> 00:16:29,902 Speaker 2: connection here? And of course they knew, but they were 247 00:16:29,902 --> 00:16:33,382 Speaker 2: pretty much more about the Copper, so they just ignored it. 248 00:16:33,542 --> 00:16:37,702 Speaker 2: They went down that track in all these sort of tregies. 249 00:16:37,742 --> 00:16:42,742 Speaker 2: When they finally cleared him, that is the copper And 250 00:16:42,862 --> 00:16:44,942 Speaker 2: so what's the next thing. Well, let's go and have 251 00:16:44,982 --> 00:16:47,702 Speaker 2: a look at Peti kipri So they go through it 252 00:16:47,702 --> 00:16:51,302 Speaker 2: all and they find some stuff out and there was 253 00:16:51,622 --> 00:16:55,942 Speaker 2: a crook by the name of Mordy, Stephen Mordy, and 254 00:16:56,062 --> 00:16:59,022 Speaker 2: he was a Biki and he'd been acquitted of the murder. 255 00:16:59,702 --> 00:17:03,742 Speaker 2: So now we backtrack and we see that there was 256 00:17:03,782 --> 00:17:08,542 Speaker 2: a fella in jail with Filip Peters who was bikie 257 00:17:08,622 --> 00:17:13,302 Speaker 2: connected to Mordy Gang, which was in Geelong. So the 258 00:17:13,302 --> 00:17:18,462 Speaker 2: theory was the idea was formed in jail and that 259 00:17:19,062 --> 00:17:24,702 Speaker 2: this middleman went to Morty. What we do know is 260 00:17:24,782 --> 00:17:29,542 Speaker 2: that after the mistaken identity hit, Mordy was beaten severely 261 00:17:30,462 --> 00:17:33,702 Speaker 2: within the biking chapter. We suspect that that's because he 262 00:17:33,782 --> 00:17:41,222 Speaker 2: got it wrong. Mordy devolves into alcohol and drugs and dies, 263 00:17:41,662 --> 00:17:45,982 Speaker 2: so there is a link gone. The police keep working 264 00:17:46,822 --> 00:17:52,542 Speaker 2: on this case and they find the person that they 265 00:17:52,662 --> 00:17:58,422 Speaker 2: believe is the person who stole the car, fellow called Reynolds, 266 00:17:58,622 --> 00:18:03,542 Speaker 2: who was a mate of Mordy. So they decided to 267 00:18:03,542 --> 00:18:06,622 Speaker 2: pick him up from memory on a Monday in two 268 00:18:06,662 --> 00:18:10,582 Speaker 2: thousand and four and plut me down. He died as 269 00:18:10,582 --> 00:18:15,382 Speaker 2: an abating accident that weekend on the Barwan River near 270 00:18:15,422 --> 00:18:21,942 Speaker 2: the Great Ocean Road. And Jane's parents really cut through 271 00:18:21,982 --> 00:18:24,382 Speaker 2: this because we were going through the Underworld War at 272 00:18:24,422 --> 00:18:28,222 Speaker 2: the time and they were saying, don't you think it's 273 00:18:28,302 --> 00:18:32,222 Speaker 2: wrong that all the resources or the things like listening 274 00:18:32,222 --> 00:18:35,062 Speaker 2: devices and trackers and all these sort of things were 275 00:18:35,102 --> 00:18:38,422 Speaker 2: being used by the Piranha Task Force looking at the 276 00:18:38,422 --> 00:18:44,142 Speaker 2: death of gangsters when their blameless daughter is murdered and 277 00:18:44,142 --> 00:18:48,062 Speaker 2: by the time they shift, it's too late. And you think, 278 00:18:48,102 --> 00:18:51,262 Speaker 2: when not just the car thief, he's not even the driver. 279 00:18:51,462 --> 00:18:55,822 Speaker 2: You think, if they've got to him, would he not 280 00:18:55,902 --> 00:18:56,822 Speaker 2: have been offered a deal? 281 00:18:57,742 --> 00:18:58,702 Speaker 3: Could he have rolled over? 282 00:18:59,582 --> 00:19:03,662 Speaker 2: And could he have given us the names of the 283 00:19:03,662 --> 00:19:12,142 Speaker 2: people who actually ordered the hit? And that chapter was gone, 284 00:19:12,342 --> 00:19:15,982 Speaker 2: and so John and Helen had to live with that. 285 00:19:17,022 --> 00:19:21,222 Speaker 2: And then John came to me and said, I want 286 00:19:21,302 --> 00:19:26,262 Speaker 2: a million dollar reward for Jane. I said the sort 287 00:19:26,262 --> 00:19:29,262 Speaker 2: of money at the time was fifty or one hundred thousand, 288 00:19:30,142 --> 00:19:33,102 Speaker 2: and I couldn't say that to John. They're not going 289 00:19:33,142 --> 00:19:36,022 Speaker 2: to do this for your daughter and not other people. 290 00:19:36,662 --> 00:19:39,222 Speaker 2: So I said, well, what about we get an idea 291 00:19:39,302 --> 00:19:43,022 Speaker 2: together where there's a sort of special class of murders, 292 00:19:43,022 --> 00:19:48,262 Speaker 2: and these are murders such as Jane's, where you believe 293 00:19:48,342 --> 00:19:52,702 Speaker 2: that you're very close and money can be the tipping point. 294 00:19:53,582 --> 00:19:56,702 Speaker 2: So not for every case. Now it is for every case, 295 00:19:56,702 --> 00:20:02,182 Speaker 2: but back then it wasn't. So I went to an advisor, 296 00:20:02,302 --> 00:20:06,822 Speaker 2: to the premiere, Steve Brax. I went to a woman, 297 00:20:06,942 --> 00:20:10,022 Speaker 2: his adviser, Jane Wilson, who had been previously had worked 298 00:20:10,702 --> 00:20:14,302 Speaker 2: rounds with us, and done courts. She was actually married 299 00:20:14,342 --> 00:20:16,902 Speaker 2: to a homicide detective as well, so she actually got it. 300 00:20:17,822 --> 00:20:20,222 Speaker 2: And I put this idea of a million dollars for 301 00:20:20,262 --> 00:20:24,062 Speaker 2: a class, and she pushed it to the premier, who 302 00:20:24,942 --> 00:20:27,822 Speaker 2: bravely took it on. Now, these finance people were saying, 303 00:20:27,822 --> 00:20:31,062 Speaker 2: this is crazy, because you know, this is the liability 304 00:20:31,102 --> 00:20:34,182 Speaker 2: and here's the paper clips, and this is why we 305 00:20:34,222 --> 00:20:34,982 Speaker 2: think it wouldn't work. 306 00:20:35,022 --> 00:20:35,982 Speaker 3: And he pushed through. 307 00:20:35,822 --> 00:20:40,622 Speaker 2: It and it didn't help John and Helen, but it 308 00:20:40,662 --> 00:20:44,702 Speaker 2: did solve murders. And so there was a case of 309 00:20:45,182 --> 00:20:49,942 Speaker 2: Messina hal Vargas who was stabbed to death tending her 310 00:20:50,062 --> 00:20:54,462 Speaker 2: grandmother's grave at Faulkner, and everyone knew it was the 311 00:20:54,542 --> 00:20:57,542 Speaker 2: serial killer predature past, but there wasn't enough information. Well, 312 00:20:57,582 --> 00:21:01,582 Speaker 2: once that million dollar reward, which was John's idea, once 313 00:21:01,622 --> 00:21:04,822 Speaker 2: that million dollar reward was put up, they got the 314 00:21:04,822 --> 00:21:09,182 Speaker 2: witnesses they need and he was convicted. And that all 315 00:21:09,222 --> 00:21:14,982 Speaker 2: came from Jane's father not letting the case go. 316 00:21:15,862 --> 00:21:19,262 Speaker 1: How does that feel for him, knowing that he's helped 317 00:21:19,262 --> 00:21:21,822 Speaker 1: all these other people, but you selfishly would be so 318 00:21:22,302 --> 00:21:24,502 Speaker 1: frustrated that it's done nothing for your own case. 319 00:21:25,622 --> 00:21:28,102 Speaker 2: Well, you'd probably have to ask John, But I think 320 00:21:28,182 --> 00:21:32,022 Speaker 2: the feeling is a moderk McBride and a great deal 321 00:21:32,062 --> 00:21:32,662 Speaker 2: of resentment. 322 00:21:33,062 --> 00:21:33,462 Speaker 3: Why is it? 323 00:21:33,462 --> 00:21:40,182 Speaker 2: It may and they always want the case kept open. 324 00:21:41,382 --> 00:21:43,862 Speaker 1: All of this movement that we've been talking about in 325 00:21:43,982 --> 00:21:48,622 Speaker 1: Jane's case happened, you know, about five years afterwards in 326 00:21:48,702 --> 00:21:51,942 Speaker 1: terms of Mardi and Reynolds died two thousand and one, 327 00:21:51,982 --> 00:21:55,102 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, and then this million dollar award 328 00:21:56,062 --> 00:21:59,662 Speaker 1: around five years after the murder. It's now been twenty 329 00:21:59,702 --> 00:22:02,582 Speaker 1: seven years. Is that case still open? Have we had 330 00:22:02,622 --> 00:22:05,542 Speaker 1: anything happen in the last fifteen or so years to 331 00:22:05,582 --> 00:22:06,222 Speaker 1: help the case? 332 00:22:06,782 --> 00:22:10,782 Speaker 2: The case is always open because we've still we all 333 00:22:10,862 --> 00:22:14,782 Speaker 2: got potential things that can happen, and we've also got 334 00:22:14,942 --> 00:22:21,102 Speaker 2: the driver. What happens is alibi witnesses, fall out, marriages 335 00:22:21,222 --> 00:22:25,422 Speaker 2: break up, people who know the truth, find God or 336 00:22:25,782 --> 00:22:30,102 Speaker 2: just decide that they can't carry the burden. So that's 337 00:22:30,262 --> 00:22:32,422 Speaker 2: such a cliche you've heard so many times, but often 338 00:22:32,462 --> 00:22:37,222 Speaker 2: it's one phone call. And what's different now is the 339 00:22:37,262 --> 00:22:41,662 Speaker 2: way cold cases are done in Australia, and we're one 340 00:22:41,702 --> 00:22:43,782 Speaker 2: of the few nations that do it in that regard 341 00:22:44,342 --> 00:22:48,902 Speaker 2: the cold case murder. So certainly in Victorian would imagine 342 00:22:49,022 --> 00:22:51,502 Speaker 2: in New South Wales you have a list of these 343 00:22:51,542 --> 00:22:56,782 Speaker 2: cold cases and they have been great on what level 344 00:22:56,822 --> 00:23:01,222 Speaker 2: of solvability and the age and so on, and then 345 00:23:01,542 --> 00:23:07,382 Speaker 2: you have a look and it could be something like DNA. Now, 346 00:23:07,622 --> 00:23:10,902 Speaker 2: for example, in Victoria, we've got what's called the Freezer Files, 347 00:23:11,742 --> 00:23:15,342 Speaker 2: which a group of scientists for insic scientists. Obviously they 348 00:23:15,422 --> 00:23:18,782 Speaker 2: knew what DNA was and they were well aware that 349 00:23:19,142 --> 00:23:24,102 Speaker 2: the capacity to test for DNA was coming. So even 350 00:23:24,142 --> 00:23:28,622 Speaker 2: though you could not test, they were taking exhibits and 351 00:23:28,622 --> 00:23:32,502 Speaker 2: freezing them in the hope that in one day it 352 00:23:32,542 --> 00:23:36,542 Speaker 2: would work. And there have been multiple cases, mostly rapes, 353 00:23:37,102 --> 00:23:40,582 Speaker 2: that have been solved well down the track. There was 354 00:23:40,582 --> 00:23:41,902 Speaker 2: a case where he was just looking at the other 355 00:23:41,982 --> 00:23:48,342 Speaker 2: day where sixteen years after the event a fellow was 356 00:23:48,422 --> 00:23:52,302 Speaker 2: caught doing a burglary in Queensland and that linked him 357 00:23:52,382 --> 00:23:53,582 Speaker 2: to the rape in Shepherd. 358 00:23:54,422 --> 00:23:57,742 Speaker 3: And even DNA. You know, we think of DNA. 359 00:23:57,502 --> 00:24:02,902 Speaker 2: As a stationary piece of evidence, but the methods get 360 00:24:02,902 --> 00:24:05,702 Speaker 2: better and better and better, so you can test something 361 00:24:06,182 --> 00:24:10,622 Speaker 2: and not get a result ten years ago, and you 362 00:24:10,662 --> 00:24:13,702 Speaker 2: will get a result in five years from the same 363 00:24:14,182 --> 00:24:15,022 Speaker 2: effective sample. 364 00:24:15,662 --> 00:24:17,782 Speaker 1: So crooks better watch their backs. 365 00:24:18,262 --> 00:24:26,862 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a slow process, but science catches them up. 366 00:24:26,902 --> 00:24:29,262 Speaker 1: Next, we move on from the case of Jane fir 367 00:24:29,302 --> 00:24:32,502 Speaker 1: Gooddove as I ask John about other cases of mistaken 368 00:24:32,542 --> 00:24:36,342 Speaker 1: identity and whether, after nearly fifty years as a crime reporter, 369 00:24:36,702 --> 00:24:45,262 Speaker 1: any case shocks him. Cases of mistaken identity, like we're 370 00:24:45,302 --> 00:24:48,902 Speaker 1: talking about what we believe happened in the case of Jane, 371 00:24:49,462 --> 00:24:55,702 Speaker 1: how common is that, particularly in Australia, more often than 372 00:24:55,782 --> 00:24:56,342 Speaker 1: you would like. 373 00:24:56,662 --> 00:25:00,102 Speaker 2: With the knowledge that hitmen biromart stupid. 374 00:25:00,142 --> 00:25:02,302 Speaker 1: Which is not what you would think because hitman, you know, 375 00:25:02,342 --> 00:25:04,822 Speaker 1: when you watch TV movies, they're usually kind of sold 376 00:25:04,862 --> 00:25:09,182 Speaker 1: to us as the ultimate criminal, the really smart and 377 00:25:10,102 --> 00:25:11,182 Speaker 1: catch related ones. 378 00:25:12,062 --> 00:25:15,382 Speaker 2: It's funny because to pass and I was talking to 379 00:25:15,422 --> 00:25:17,982 Speaker 2: the then head of the homicide squad and saying what 380 00:25:18,022 --> 00:25:21,302 Speaker 2: a monster he was, and he had a different view. 381 00:25:21,422 --> 00:25:25,382 Speaker 2: He said, these people they're dreadful and they're dangerous and 382 00:25:25,382 --> 00:25:27,822 Speaker 2: they should never be let out. But I feel sorry 383 00:25:27,862 --> 00:25:31,422 Speaker 2: for them, he said, because they're driven by evil compulsions 384 00:25:31,462 --> 00:25:35,382 Speaker 2: that they can't control. He said, do you reckon if 385 00:25:35,422 --> 00:25:39,382 Speaker 2: there was a queue in life between being an obsessive, 386 00:25:39,502 --> 00:25:45,742 Speaker 2: violent serial killer or a normal person who can have loving, 387 00:25:45,942 --> 00:25:48,662 Speaker 2: long lasting relations, which queue do you think everyone would 388 00:25:48,702 --> 00:25:52,302 Speaker 2: jump in? So he's saying, these people don't have a choice. 389 00:25:52,342 --> 00:25:55,182 Speaker 2: He said, the people I had to test hit me 390 00:25:56,342 --> 00:25:58,702 Speaker 2: people who will go and kill someone and then come 391 00:25:58,742 --> 00:26:02,302 Speaker 2: home for a roslamb dinner. So they're the ones he 392 00:26:02,382 --> 00:26:05,142 Speaker 2: to test, and we tend to put them up as 393 00:26:05,222 --> 00:26:09,782 Speaker 2: cool and calm. There was a case against who was 394 00:26:09,782 --> 00:26:12,142 Speaker 2: set up to be hit. But he lived in a 395 00:26:12,302 --> 00:26:15,742 Speaker 2: sort of a new development which was a little bit 396 00:26:15,742 --> 00:26:17,902 Speaker 2: of a lego land, you know, one of those places 397 00:26:17,902 --> 00:26:20,142 Speaker 2: where every house was the same and you're only allowed 398 00:26:20,142 --> 00:26:24,382 Speaker 2: to paint them one of three ways, so all the 399 00:26:24,422 --> 00:26:28,062 Speaker 2: houses are the same. So this bloke, there'd been a 400 00:26:28,382 --> 00:26:30,302 Speaker 2: go at him once, so all he did was starting 401 00:26:30,382 --> 00:26:33,302 Speaker 2: parking his car up the road and say he did that, 402 00:26:34,142 --> 00:26:37,062 Speaker 2: And these clowns arrived and went one, two three four, 403 00:26:37,262 --> 00:26:40,422 Speaker 2: there's his car, and they went round the back. Every 404 00:26:40,462 --> 00:26:45,102 Speaker 2: house is identical. Every house had a garage, so they 405 00:26:45,142 --> 00:26:47,222 Speaker 2: went one, two three four five, this is the house. 406 00:26:48,142 --> 00:26:53,302 Speaker 2: And there was an Asian real estate student and the 407 00:26:53,342 --> 00:26:59,622 Speaker 2: other bloke was a Middle Eastern bodybuilder in his thirties. 408 00:27:00,382 --> 00:27:05,342 Speaker 2: And we've got a pencil thin Asian real estate student 409 00:27:06,422 --> 00:27:09,902 Speaker 2: who's no more than twenty. He'd been gaming with his 410 00:27:09,942 --> 00:27:13,062 Speaker 2: friends in the garage and when he walked out, he 411 00:27:13,102 --> 00:27:13,622 Speaker 2: was shot dead. 412 00:27:14,782 --> 00:27:17,942 Speaker 1: And they thought that that was legitimately their target, or 413 00:27:18,022 --> 00:27:18,662 Speaker 1: just didn't care. 414 00:27:19,782 --> 00:27:21,582 Speaker 2: They believed it was the target of it. They didn't 415 00:27:21,582 --> 00:27:26,142 Speaker 2: do their homework. We had a greengrocer shot dead early 416 00:27:26,182 --> 00:27:30,062 Speaker 2: in the morning and the offenders were Bikis and they've 417 00:27:30,102 --> 00:27:33,902 Speaker 2: never said why. Everyone knows it's mistaken identity. There was 418 00:27:33,902 --> 00:27:35,702 Speaker 2: a crook who lived out that way. They followed the 419 00:27:35,702 --> 00:27:39,342 Speaker 2: wrong person and shot him in a pail of bullets 420 00:27:39,702 --> 00:27:43,942 Speaker 2: on a freeway. Way back in the eighties. I'm sure 421 00:27:43,982 --> 00:27:48,142 Speaker 2: you remember the case of Mick Drury, the undercover police 422 00:27:48,142 --> 00:27:53,582 Speaker 2: officer that Roger Rogerson and Christopherdael Flannery were involved in 423 00:27:53,662 --> 00:27:56,142 Speaker 2: an attempted hit on him. Well, Mick was doing a 424 00:27:56,222 --> 00:28:00,582 Speaker 2: job in Melbourne and a Melbourne crook, calld Alan Williams, 425 00:28:00,622 --> 00:28:04,182 Speaker 2: was the target. Williams got away from the sting which 426 00:28:04,262 --> 00:28:08,742 Speaker 2: Mick Drury was the undercover, and Williams ultimately knew that 427 00:28:08,822 --> 00:28:11,582 Speaker 2: Mick Drury was the only witness who could pot him 428 00:28:11,742 --> 00:28:16,142 Speaker 2: for heroin trafficking, so that's why he went to Roger 429 00:28:16,222 --> 00:28:22,062 Speaker 2: Rogerson via hitman Christopher Dale Flannery to offer a bribe, 430 00:28:23,262 --> 00:28:27,342 Speaker 2: and when Mick wouldn't take the bribe, the next thing 431 00:28:27,622 --> 00:28:31,262 Speaker 2: it was decided, well, we'll kill him. So when it 432 00:28:31,382 --> 00:28:36,302 Speaker 2: doesn't work, Allan Williams is the loose thread here because 433 00:28:36,342 --> 00:28:39,622 Speaker 2: he's the only one who knows the truth other than 434 00:28:40,142 --> 00:28:47,502 Speaker 2: obviously Rogerson and Flannery. So a Victorian copper rings Williams 435 00:28:47,542 --> 00:28:49,182 Speaker 2: and says, don't go home, they're going to kill you. 436 00:28:50,302 --> 00:28:55,702 Speaker 2: He takes his advice, but his brother in law Lindsay Simpson, 437 00:28:56,062 --> 00:29:02,022 Speaker 2: is not told. So Lindsey turns up at Allan's place. 438 00:29:02,942 --> 00:29:09,382 Speaker 2: There's two hitmen and they come down the drive, drag 439 00:29:09,462 --> 00:29:14,742 Speaker 2: him out, and he goes, my name is Simpson, and 440 00:29:14,782 --> 00:29:17,822 Speaker 2: they shoot him dead. The hitmen were Dennis Allen, the 441 00:29:17,862 --> 00:29:21,822 Speaker 2: drug dealer who's now dead, and Ray the red rat Pollet, 442 00:29:21,822 --> 00:29:27,102 Speaker 2: who's now been deported back to the UK. And I 443 00:29:27,142 --> 00:29:31,342 Speaker 2: spoke to Pollet and Pollard said, oh, I didn't do it, 444 00:29:32,142 --> 00:29:38,302 Speaker 2: but I was told that the hitmen were not wearing balaclavas, 445 00:29:39,182 --> 00:29:44,022 Speaker 2: and when they dragged him out, they thought, shit, he's 446 00:29:44,062 --> 00:29:48,422 Speaker 2: seen us. We're going to get killed. So it was 447 00:29:48,742 --> 00:29:52,502 Speaker 2: murder in cold blood of an innocent man. And the 448 00:29:52,542 --> 00:29:55,662 Speaker 2: other area about the hitmen is how often it's not 449 00:29:55,782 --> 00:30:00,302 Speaker 2: mistaken identity, but it's collateral damage. Way back during the 450 00:30:00,382 --> 00:30:04,902 Speaker 2: Underworld War, there was a hit on Jason Moran, but 451 00:30:04,982 --> 00:30:08,422 Speaker 2: but Squally Barbara was in the car and he was 452 00:30:08,462 --> 00:30:10,222 Speaker 2: shot dead and the hip man later time place I 453 00:30:10,262 --> 00:30:13,702 Speaker 2: did Nemono's in the car and in the back of 454 00:30:13,742 --> 00:30:18,022 Speaker 2: the van was half a dozen kids. He just saw 455 00:30:18,062 --> 00:30:21,262 Speaker 2: two men murdered less than I meet you in front 456 00:30:21,262 --> 00:30:21,542 Speaker 2: of them. 457 00:30:22,182 --> 00:30:26,662 Speaker 1: It's just this complete lack of feeling for life, for 458 00:30:26,782 --> 00:30:29,982 Speaker 1: innocence for anyone but themselves. 459 00:30:30,422 --> 00:30:30,662 Speaker 3: Yeah. 460 00:30:30,782 --> 00:30:33,702 Speaker 2: Well, Michael Marshall was connected in the Underworld, but it 461 00:30:33,742 --> 00:30:37,262 Speaker 2: was also it was a hot dog vendor and he 462 00:30:37,342 --> 00:30:39,422 Speaker 2: was shot dead in the street in front of his 463 00:30:39,582 --> 00:30:43,982 Speaker 2: little boy. And when the police asked him what he did, 464 00:30:44,222 --> 00:30:47,142 Speaker 2: he said, I ran a mum, but I looked left 465 00:30:47,182 --> 00:30:48,862 Speaker 2: and right like I was always told to. 466 00:30:50,262 --> 00:30:52,262 Speaker 1: I'm going to expose you here. But you've been covering 467 00:30:52,342 --> 00:30:57,942 Speaker 1: crime since nineteen seventy eight, nearly fifty years. Does anything 468 00:30:58,262 --> 00:31:02,262 Speaker 1: surprise you anymore? The depths of horrible that human beings 469 00:31:02,302 --> 00:31:03,662 Speaker 1: will subject other humans too. 470 00:31:04,862 --> 00:31:08,862 Speaker 2: Why I can keep going is for every horrible thing, 471 00:31:08,902 --> 00:31:15,182 Speaker 2: there's heroism Messina hal Vargas as, we have discussed just 472 00:31:15,262 --> 00:31:19,462 Speaker 2: a dreadful, dreadful crime, but the parents, George and Christina. 473 00:31:19,582 --> 00:31:25,542 Speaker 2: George is that successful Margaret. He jumped ship, he cut caine, 474 00:31:26,102 --> 00:31:28,462 Speaker 2: He worked the hard jobs, got a small business, turned 475 00:31:28,502 --> 00:31:31,942 Speaker 2: it into a medium business, brought his family out, and 476 00:31:32,262 --> 00:31:37,222 Speaker 2: after the death of his daughter, he became like an 477 00:31:37,262 --> 00:31:41,422 Speaker 2: amazing one man lobbyist and you're all the media. He 478 00:31:41,502 --> 00:31:43,942 Speaker 2: would kiss the girls on the cheek and ask them 479 00:31:43,942 --> 00:31:50,582 Speaker 2: about their families. When Jane thurgodove the original reward the 480 00:31:50,582 --> 00:31:53,382 Speaker 2: police when I was fifty thousand, and there's an iconic 481 00:31:53,502 --> 00:31:57,622 Speaker 2: picture of Jane looking at the camera and you just 482 00:31:57,702 --> 00:32:00,942 Speaker 2: know she's a lovely person. And the Premier, Jeff Kennet, 483 00:32:00,982 --> 00:32:05,102 Speaker 2: said let's make it one hundred. And then George hal 484 00:32:05,142 --> 00:32:08,662 Speaker 2: Vargas went to see the Premier and said, so a 485 00:32:08,742 --> 00:32:12,902 Speaker 2: blonde Australian girl is with Greek girls because the reward 486 00:32:12,942 --> 00:32:16,222 Speaker 2: for Messina was fifty and Jeff immediately said, no, well 487 00:32:16,262 --> 00:32:18,182 Speaker 2: the reward for your daughter is going to be one hundred. 488 00:32:19,222 --> 00:32:21,702 Speaker 2: And he kept going and he would never let the 489 00:32:21,742 --> 00:32:28,382 Speaker 2: case go, and the police did one two, three task forces. 490 00:32:29,062 --> 00:32:33,022 Speaker 2: Paul Coughlan was the Director of Public Prosecutions. He later 491 00:32:33,022 --> 00:32:37,182 Speaker 2: became a Supreme Court judge. This is what separates us 492 00:32:37,462 --> 00:32:41,182 Speaker 2: from most countries in the world. Jupas han't been convicted 493 00:32:41,222 --> 00:32:45,342 Speaker 2: of two murders. He had been sentenced not once, but 494 00:32:45,422 --> 00:32:49,142 Speaker 2: twice to life no minimum. He was not getting parole, 495 00:32:49,862 --> 00:32:54,542 Speaker 2: he was never getting out of jail. So we come 496 00:32:54,582 --> 00:32:58,982 Speaker 2: to Messina's case and you could just say to the parents, way, look, 497 00:32:58,982 --> 00:33:02,342 Speaker 2: we know he did it, rest assured he'll never get out. 498 00:33:03,182 --> 00:33:06,982 Speaker 2: But it was Paul Coughlin who said the Halvargus family 499 00:33:07,182 --> 00:33:11,422 Speaker 2: deserved justice. So he prosecuted him for the third murder, 500 00:33:12,142 --> 00:33:20,262 Speaker 2: successfully convicted, he appealed, the conviction was quashed, and they 501 00:33:20,302 --> 00:33:23,302 Speaker 2: did it again. They went through the trial again and 502 00:33:23,342 --> 00:33:27,982 Speaker 2: he was convicted. The fact that we society spent over 503 00:33:27,982 --> 00:33:31,022 Speaker 2: a million dollars to get that Dan Court for the 504 00:33:31,102 --> 00:33:37,022 Speaker 2: how Varguss is why we remain a civilized society. And 505 00:33:37,062 --> 00:33:39,662 Speaker 2: it also tells you about policing because there was a 506 00:33:39,822 --> 00:33:43,502 Speaker 2: star witness was Andrew Fraser. He was a lawyer that 507 00:33:43,662 --> 00:33:46,382 Speaker 2: police hated. They really thought he ran too close to 508 00:33:46,422 --> 00:33:51,022 Speaker 2: the crooks and he developed a cocaine habit. And he 509 00:33:51,022 --> 00:33:53,982 Speaker 2: wouldn't be the first and he was charged with a 510 00:33:54,062 --> 00:33:57,302 Speaker 2: number of cocaine offenses and did jail time, got a 511 00:33:57,302 --> 00:34:02,862 Speaker 2: big whack, and he should have been teaching English in 512 00:34:02,902 --> 00:34:07,502 Speaker 2: a medium security prison, but instead coppers with long memories 513 00:34:07,502 --> 00:34:10,222 Speaker 2: put in some files to say his life's in danger, 514 00:34:11,302 --> 00:34:13,022 Speaker 2: so he had to do his time with the worst 515 00:34:13,022 --> 00:34:16,222 Speaker 2: of the worst child killers and so on. And he 516 00:34:16,342 --> 00:34:19,462 Speaker 2: was in with Jepass, and they spent a lot of 517 00:34:19,462 --> 00:34:21,982 Speaker 2: time together. And when Geapass gave a no comment record 518 00:34:21,982 --> 00:34:25,062 Speaker 2: of interviewed at the police, they thought it was Fraser, 519 00:34:25,102 --> 00:34:28,702 Speaker 2: so they hated him even more. But when there was 520 00:34:28,702 --> 00:34:32,742 Speaker 2: a reinvestigation, a copper who was prepared to part his ego, 521 00:34:33,982 --> 00:34:37,742 Speaker 2: he rang Fraser, who was then in Saule Prison in 522 00:34:37,782 --> 00:34:44,982 Speaker 2: Country Victoria, and said, mister Fraser, I'm reinvestigating the Messina 523 00:34:45,062 --> 00:34:47,902 Speaker 2: hal Vargas matter and you spent some time with Gepass. 524 00:34:47,942 --> 00:34:51,422 Speaker 2: I wonder if he can help me. And the policeman 525 00:34:51,862 --> 00:34:57,582 Speaker 2: Paul Scarlett expected Fraser to say get staffed, and Fraser said, 526 00:34:57,862 --> 00:35:00,542 Speaker 2: what took you so long? You better come and see me. 527 00:35:01,822 --> 00:35:07,222 Speaker 2: And Fraser gave evidence that Gepass frightened bugs had not 528 00:35:07,382 --> 00:35:12,462 Speaker 2: actually physically confessed, but had mind what had happened and 529 00:35:13,022 --> 00:35:18,102 Speaker 2: the active miming involved creeping up from behind and stabbing, 530 00:35:18,102 --> 00:35:21,142 Speaker 2: a effect that was not known to the general public, 531 00:35:22,222 --> 00:35:26,382 Speaker 2: and he became the star witness and without him there 532 00:35:26,382 --> 00:35:27,422 Speaker 2: never would have been a conviction. 533 00:35:32,342 --> 00:35:36,142 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass. 534 00:35:36,462 --> 00:35:39,382 Speaker 1: After the break I continue to ask renowned true crime 535 00:35:39,382 --> 00:35:42,702 Speaker 1: writer and journalist John Sylvester about some of the most 536 00:35:42,782 --> 00:35:51,982 Speaker 1: compelling cases from his career, focusing on Australian serial killers. 537 00:35:53,502 --> 00:35:56,262 Speaker 1: I want to touch on serial killers. We don't have 538 00:35:56,302 --> 00:35:59,142 Speaker 1: as many in Australia as we do overseas, but you 539 00:35:59,222 --> 00:36:03,982 Speaker 1: have worked and covered on a few cases involving people 540 00:36:04,022 --> 00:36:07,542 Speaker 1: who kill multiples, and I wanted to ask you about 541 00:36:07,622 --> 00:36:10,902 Speaker 1: John Leslie Coombs. He's an Australian serial killer, but he 542 00:36:11,622 --> 00:36:13,942 Speaker 1: isn't a name that I would hazard to guess as 543 00:36:14,422 --> 00:36:17,942 Speaker 1: being as infamous, Australians might not know as much about him. 544 00:36:17,982 --> 00:36:20,862 Speaker 1: Why do you think that is because he did kill multiple. 545 00:36:20,462 --> 00:36:26,262 Speaker 2: People, because there was such a gap between it. In 546 00:36:26,302 --> 00:36:31,542 Speaker 2: the eighties, he killed somebody and he does his time, 547 00:36:32,142 --> 00:36:35,142 Speaker 2: but then later they find out that just months before 548 00:36:35,302 --> 00:36:41,182 Speaker 2: he'd killed first, he'd lured a fellow onto a boat, 549 00:36:42,262 --> 00:36:44,982 Speaker 2: killed him and then repeatedly run him over with a 550 00:36:45,022 --> 00:36:50,142 Speaker 2: propeller to shred him up. So he comes up a 551 00:36:50,222 --> 00:36:53,662 Speaker 2: second time, and probably because he'd already done his twelve 552 00:36:53,742 --> 00:36:56,342 Speaker 2: years for the first one, and whatever, he doesn't get 553 00:36:56,342 --> 00:36:59,062 Speaker 2: a big sentence and he's let out again, And of 554 00:36:59,102 --> 00:37:02,662 Speaker 2: course shortly afterwards he kills the third time, this time 555 00:37:02,702 --> 00:37:07,622 Speaker 2: a female which he lures to Phillip Island, and it's 556 00:37:07,662 --> 00:37:12,942 Speaker 2: like he's refining his methods. The propeller thing. They never 557 00:37:12,982 --> 00:37:15,742 Speaker 2: found the body, so that seemed to be a good 558 00:37:15,742 --> 00:37:17,742 Speaker 2: way of disposing of the body. And in this case 559 00:37:18,422 --> 00:37:22,342 Speaker 2: he dismembered his victim in a path which takes a 560 00:37:22,422 --> 00:37:27,262 Speaker 2: long time and an incredible cold bloodedness, and then has 561 00:37:27,382 --> 00:37:31,982 Speaker 2: taken the pieces down in bags to a pear and 562 00:37:32,462 --> 00:37:34,862 Speaker 2: thrown them in. And he probably would have got away 563 00:37:34,902 --> 00:37:40,662 Speaker 2: with it, except tides being unpredictable, a leg turned up 564 00:37:40,702 --> 00:37:43,502 Speaker 2: on the beach and then it went from there by Now, 565 00:37:43,582 --> 00:37:46,702 Speaker 2: of course we're in the time where we got toll 566 00:37:46,782 --> 00:37:49,582 Speaker 2: roads and things pinging and so and so he can 567 00:37:49,622 --> 00:37:54,502 Speaker 2: be placed down there, and so this time the judges 568 00:37:54,542 --> 00:37:57,462 Speaker 2: have ensured that there is no chance that he'll ever 569 00:37:57,502 --> 00:38:00,782 Speaker 2: be released. But again the police say ed looked like 570 00:38:00,942 --> 00:38:04,142 Speaker 2: Father Christmas. I'm very benign, good company. 571 00:38:04,662 --> 00:38:09,142 Speaker 1: See, when you listen to what he did, it surprises 572 00:38:09,182 --> 00:38:11,262 Speaker 1: me that he isn't as infamous is someone like a 573 00:38:11,342 --> 00:38:14,342 Speaker 1: malat or you know, even a Paul Danya, who is 574 00:38:14,382 --> 00:38:17,502 Speaker 1: another serial killer that you covered. He murdered three women 575 00:38:17,502 --> 00:38:20,462 Speaker 1: in Melbourne and people do know his name a lot more. 576 00:38:21,822 --> 00:38:22,062 Speaker 3: Yeah. 577 00:38:22,102 --> 00:38:26,462 Speaker 2: Well, Daniel of course struck over six weeks in Frankston 578 00:38:27,462 --> 00:38:31,302 Speaker 2: in the early nineties, and it tells you how things 579 00:38:31,302 --> 00:38:36,542 Speaker 2: have changed. Three women, and again I think it wouldn't 580 00:38:36,542 --> 00:38:40,942 Speaker 2: have happened if we had the proper computer system as 581 00:38:40,982 --> 00:38:43,902 Speaker 2: we do now, because there was an event down there 582 00:38:44,622 --> 00:38:48,382 Speaker 2: where woman by the name of Donna, her flat was 583 00:38:48,422 --> 00:38:52,382 Speaker 2: broken into and her cats killed that he used the 584 00:38:52,382 --> 00:38:58,502 Speaker 2: blood to write Donna, You're dead on the wall, and 585 00:38:58,542 --> 00:39:02,902 Speaker 2: when the police did the investigation, it was interesting. Donna 586 00:39:03,062 --> 00:39:06,022 Speaker 2: just had a feeling she was being stalked, and she 587 00:39:06,302 --> 00:39:09,702 Speaker 2: went to her boyfriend, who was a pizza delivery guy, 588 00:39:10,622 --> 00:39:13,382 Speaker 2: and said, can I do the night shift with you 589 00:39:13,542 --> 00:39:17,822 Speaker 2: with the baby. So she wasn't there. She would have 590 00:39:17,862 --> 00:39:21,662 Speaker 2: been the first victim, but she nominated that she'd gone 591 00:39:21,662 --> 00:39:25,462 Speaker 2: to see her sister who lived near Danya and said 592 00:39:25,702 --> 00:39:28,542 Speaker 2: he looked at me in such a way he should 593 00:39:28,582 --> 00:39:32,662 Speaker 2: be on your suspect list. That information never got to 594 00:39:33,062 --> 00:39:37,062 Speaker 2: the task force looking at the serial killer at Frankston. Now, 595 00:39:37,622 --> 00:39:42,182 Speaker 2: animal mutilation is a key trigger to serial killers, so 596 00:39:42,342 --> 00:39:46,182 Speaker 2: Daniel would have been on the list, of which he wasn't. 597 00:39:46,742 --> 00:39:51,422 Speaker 2: Three murders and the hero is someone if you don't 598 00:39:51,422 --> 00:39:55,742 Speaker 2: hear about, and that's Vicky Collins, who was a posty. 599 00:39:56,822 --> 00:40:01,102 Speaker 2: And she happened to be riding a little motorbike doing 600 00:40:01,102 --> 00:40:03,742 Speaker 2: her rounds. And she got to sky Road and she 601 00:40:03,782 --> 00:40:09,262 Speaker 2: saw a car partner a track and there wasn't another plate. 602 00:40:09,342 --> 00:40:11,662 Speaker 2: And as she went past, she flipped into the rearview 603 00:40:11,702 --> 00:40:14,302 Speaker 2: mirror and she saw a big guy sort of hunched 604 00:40:14,342 --> 00:40:17,542 Speaker 2: down behind the steering wheel as though not to be seen. 605 00:40:18,062 --> 00:40:19,542 Speaker 2: I don't know about you. It's the end of a 606 00:40:19,542 --> 00:40:25,382 Speaker 2: long day. You've been working since six am and I 607 00:40:25,422 --> 00:40:27,942 Speaker 2: would have just finished my round and then made a 608 00:40:27,942 --> 00:40:30,422 Speaker 2: phone call from the post office. She got to the 609 00:40:30,422 --> 00:40:34,102 Speaker 2: first house out of sight and she went in. She 610 00:40:34,142 --> 00:40:37,742 Speaker 2: made a call and said to the police suspect car 611 00:40:38,342 --> 00:40:41,262 Speaker 2: and the poor woman, she says, just before she went in, 612 00:40:41,942 --> 00:40:45,422 Speaker 2: she saw a schoolgirl walking along and she thought about 613 00:40:45,502 --> 00:40:48,862 Speaker 2: warning her, but there's nothing really to say. And that 614 00:40:48,982 --> 00:40:53,702 Speaker 2: was Natalie Russell, who was the last victim of Dania. 615 00:40:54,302 --> 00:40:59,382 Speaker 2: But Dania saw Natalie coming, got out of the car, 616 00:40:59,502 --> 00:41:04,022 Speaker 2: got in front, already, had his ambush spot selected, waited 617 00:41:04,222 --> 00:41:06,062 Speaker 2: and of course murdered it with. 618 00:41:06,182 --> 00:41:07,302 Speaker 3: A red handed knife. 619 00:41:07,702 --> 00:41:09,942 Speaker 1: We thank him for in place. 620 00:41:11,342 --> 00:41:12,302 Speaker 3: On the strap. 621 00:41:13,142 --> 00:41:16,062 Speaker 1: He would have found it at the scene in two pieces. 622 00:41:16,702 --> 00:41:17,062 Speaker 3: What was it? 623 00:41:17,182 --> 00:41:18,702 Speaker 1: Useful streamer. 624 00:41:19,462 --> 00:41:22,262 Speaker 2: When he got out, the police were already there looking 625 00:41:22,302 --> 00:41:26,422 Speaker 2: at his car, so he walked home. The next day, 626 00:41:27,182 --> 00:41:29,822 Speaker 2: Natalie's body's found and the police are at their lowest. 627 00:41:31,102 --> 00:41:33,222 Speaker 2: We don't know who's done this, and he struck again, 628 00:41:33,862 --> 00:41:35,782 Speaker 2: and then of course they get the running sheets that 629 00:41:35,822 --> 00:41:38,782 Speaker 2: there was a particular car here and there have been 630 00:41:38,822 --> 00:41:41,622 Speaker 2: other reports of that car. So they go to see 631 00:41:41,702 --> 00:41:46,302 Speaker 2: Daniel and the head of that investigation was Rod Wilson. 632 00:41:47,822 --> 00:41:52,062 Speaker 2: And you remember I told you about the political advisor 633 00:41:52,102 --> 00:41:55,822 Speaker 2: that helped with the million dollars. That was Jane Wilson. 634 00:41:56,742 --> 00:42:00,782 Speaker 2: Rod Wilson was the investigator for Dania. He went in 635 00:42:00,942 --> 00:42:04,342 Speaker 2: and he just smelled it that Daniel was too cooperative, 636 00:42:05,622 --> 00:42:07,742 Speaker 2: didn't ask enough questions. He thought, I want to talk 637 00:42:07,782 --> 00:42:11,742 Speaker 2: to this guy and took him back, and it was 638 00:42:11,782 --> 00:42:17,342 Speaker 2: over a thousand questions before the Zinger Rogers letting him 639 00:42:17,382 --> 00:42:20,382 Speaker 2: tell his story, and then after a thousand questions, he 640 00:42:20,422 --> 00:42:24,622 Speaker 2: asked him about cuts on his hands, and then he 641 00:42:24,662 --> 00:42:27,822 Speaker 2: gives an answer about how he was fixing the engine 642 00:42:27,862 --> 00:42:31,302 Speaker 2: on his car and the screwdriver slipped, but the way 643 00:42:31,342 --> 00:42:33,422 Speaker 2: he did it didn't fit the injury, so he changed 644 00:42:33,422 --> 00:42:36,102 Speaker 2: his hand position and you can see him look up 645 00:42:36,142 --> 00:42:38,462 Speaker 2: and go, I'm in trouble. And that's the first time 646 00:42:38,542 --> 00:42:39,622 Speaker 2: Rod said. 647 00:42:39,462 --> 00:42:40,182 Speaker 3: I don't believe you. 648 00:42:40,702 --> 00:42:42,622 Speaker 2: And the piece of skin that had been taken from 649 00:42:42,742 --> 00:42:47,222 Speaker 2: Dania's hand in the stabbing Frenzy was found with Natalie 650 00:42:47,862 --> 00:42:53,542 Speaker 2: and once Dania knew he was cooked. It's weird to 651 00:42:53,542 --> 00:42:58,382 Speaker 2: watch him because he confesses enthusiastically, and at one point 652 00:42:58,422 --> 00:43:03,742 Speaker 2: he takes the police to where he had hidden one 653 00:43:03,742 --> 00:43:07,022 Speaker 2: of the victim's purses and the police it had been raining. 654 00:43:07,022 --> 00:43:09,462 Speaker 2: He always struck when it rained, and the police went 655 00:43:09,462 --> 00:43:12,942 Speaker 2: and immediately couldn't And Thenick goes in and digs like 656 00:43:12,982 --> 00:43:15,942 Speaker 2: a dog and then pulls it out and it's like 657 00:43:15,982 --> 00:43:18,782 Speaker 2: a trophy. He goes, see here, it is here, it 658 00:43:18,862 --> 00:43:23,182 Speaker 2: is It's like he's part of the investigations team go 659 00:43:23,302 --> 00:43:26,782 Speaker 2: back to his place and you watch him. He's smiling 660 00:43:26,902 --> 00:43:29,942 Speaker 2: like an idiot, and he's holding his runners up, looking 661 00:43:29,942 --> 00:43:33,902 Speaker 2: at the police. He wants them to ask, so they say, 662 00:43:33,942 --> 00:43:37,422 Speaker 2: what about the runners? And he says, whenever I wore 663 00:43:37,462 --> 00:43:41,742 Speaker 2: them during one of those crimes, I would take them 664 00:43:41,782 --> 00:43:45,022 Speaker 2: back and put them on the radiator to change the tread. 665 00:43:46,182 --> 00:43:49,622 Speaker 2: The look on his face is like a school kid saying, 666 00:43:50,782 --> 00:43:52,502 Speaker 2: aren't I clever? You know I went a gold star? 667 00:43:54,102 --> 00:43:57,502 Speaker 1: What was it like for you covering those kinds of cases. 668 00:43:58,942 --> 00:44:01,622 Speaker 2: I'd move to the Sunday eight so I was not 669 00:44:02,302 --> 00:44:06,582 Speaker 2: under the deadline pressure. So I was watching it and 670 00:44:06,702 --> 00:44:12,982 Speaker 2: I saw the investigators were friends, and homicide people work 671 00:44:13,022 --> 00:44:16,502 Speaker 2: on a slow burn. It's all about the Supreme Court 672 00:44:16,582 --> 00:44:20,462 Speaker 2: in two years time. These people knew every day that 673 00:44:20,502 --> 00:44:22,422 Speaker 2: they didn't get a result. They were closer to another 674 00:44:22,502 --> 00:44:26,982 Speaker 2: murder and the devastating I interviewed one of the local 675 00:44:26,982 --> 00:44:31,782 Speaker 2: police greg guy Bernie Rankin years later, and he burst 676 00:44:31,782 --> 00:44:34,502 Speaker 2: into tears and he just said that just came up 677 00:44:34,502 --> 00:44:36,702 Speaker 2: to me. I didn't even know it was coming. So 678 00:44:36,862 --> 00:44:39,542 Speaker 2: the baggage that they can and I remember, as I said, 679 00:44:39,622 --> 00:44:42,582 Speaker 2: he always struck when a rain because he knew how 680 00:44:42,582 --> 00:44:47,102 Speaker 2: to wash away clothes. And that last weekend, I went 681 00:44:47,142 --> 00:44:50,102 Speaker 2: to bed and it was raining, and I thought it's 682 00:44:50,142 --> 00:44:54,022 Speaker 2: going to happen, and I felt so dreadful. And the 683 00:44:54,062 --> 00:44:57,182 Speaker 2: next morning they found Natalie. In those days, it's landlined. 684 00:44:57,582 --> 00:44:59,302 Speaker 2: The phone rang and it was a Voicemaie just said 685 00:44:59,342 --> 00:45:02,582 Speaker 2: we've got them. And the relief. But it's interesting because 686 00:45:03,862 --> 00:45:05,822 Speaker 2: there's lots of vision that you can watch, and so 687 00:45:05,862 --> 00:45:11,902 Speaker 2: there's women were being walked to their cars, and how 688 00:45:11,982 --> 00:45:14,942 Speaker 2: quickly he was going to strike one of his victims. 689 00:45:14,982 --> 00:45:18,822 Speaker 2: It's just like a horrible Hollywood movie. I was a 690 00:45:18,822 --> 00:45:23,022 Speaker 2: young man who was cooking an omelet for a friend 691 00:45:23,022 --> 00:45:25,942 Speaker 2: and didn't have enough eggs, so just slipped down to 692 00:45:25,982 --> 00:45:30,262 Speaker 2: the local milker. Dania had tried to abduct a woman 693 00:45:30,582 --> 00:45:31,342 Speaker 2: and had failed. 694 00:45:31,702 --> 00:45:35,222 Speaker 3: She'd fought her way free, so. 695 00:45:35,182 --> 00:45:41,622 Speaker 2: He's angry and humiliated, and he sees the car's open. 696 00:45:41,662 --> 00:45:43,742 Speaker 2: He hops in the back seat and hides in the 697 00:45:43,742 --> 00:45:48,302 Speaker 2: back seat next to the baby seat, and then jumps out. 698 00:45:48,542 --> 00:45:52,262 Speaker 2: She actually loses control and clips out a building, but 699 00:45:52,502 --> 00:45:56,782 Speaker 2: in the end takes away. Come the day of his arrest, 700 00:45:57,302 --> 00:45:59,902 Speaker 2: there's a group of women who've gone shopping and one 701 00:45:59,942 --> 00:46:01,582 Speaker 2: of them's bit tired, so she just has a kip 702 00:46:01,622 --> 00:46:04,782 Speaker 2: in the car and when they come back, the car 703 00:46:04,822 --> 00:46:06,782 Speaker 2: park is ninety percent empty. 704 00:46:06,982 --> 00:46:08,702 Speaker 3: Yet there's a car parked. 705 00:46:08,382 --> 00:46:13,862 Speaker 2: Right next to this other vehicle, and the women who 706 00:46:13,942 --> 00:46:17,822 Speaker 2: ensure can come back and out jumps a man and 707 00:46:17,862 --> 00:46:22,742 Speaker 2: one of them recognizes him because it's local. It's Danya, 708 00:46:24,182 --> 00:46:28,022 Speaker 2: and Danya had asked this woman's daughter out for a 709 00:46:28,102 --> 00:46:33,062 Speaker 2: date and she'd rejected him, and then they found all 710 00:46:33,382 --> 00:46:37,382 Speaker 2: their chickens decapitated. But the woman who'd been in the 711 00:46:37,422 --> 00:46:42,662 Speaker 2: car napping said, I thought he'd come back because I 712 00:46:42,742 --> 00:46:44,502 Speaker 2: felt the presence of someone in the backseat. 713 00:46:45,342 --> 00:46:46,502 Speaker 1: That's so creepy. 714 00:46:47,302 --> 00:46:50,982 Speaker 2: It's entirely likely that he got in the car expecting 715 00:46:50,982 --> 00:46:53,542 Speaker 2: her to wake up and drive away, and that when 716 00:46:53,542 --> 00:46:56,342 Speaker 2: the others came back, he got out. And one of 717 00:46:56,502 --> 00:47:00,622 Speaker 2: Natalie Russell's friends said recently, Dania is the reason that 718 00:47:00,702 --> 00:47:04,222 Speaker 2: women in Frankston still look in the backseat before they 719 00:47:04,302 --> 00:47:09,462 Speaker 2: drive off. Now, the police warned every women at the 720 00:47:09,502 --> 00:47:17,542 Speaker 2: time basically, lockdown, don't go out unlesshafter years later, one 721 00:47:17,582 --> 00:47:20,982 Speaker 2: of those investigators, Mick Hughes, became head of the homicide 722 00:47:20,982 --> 00:47:25,702 Speaker 2: squad and he had a case remarkably similar, and that 723 00:47:25,822 --> 00:47:28,422 Speaker 2: is a young woman stalked in a park and killed, 724 00:47:28,822 --> 00:47:34,022 Speaker 2: and he immediately saw the similarities with Natalie seventeen years 725 00:47:34,062 --> 00:47:38,702 Speaker 2: old schoolgirl. The difference, of course, with CCTV, they were 726 00:47:38,702 --> 00:47:41,262 Speaker 2: able to track the guy pretty quickly in Getting, but 727 00:47:41,462 --> 00:47:45,702 Speaker 2: Mick Hughes made statements along the line of probably don't 728 00:47:45,702 --> 00:47:48,222 Speaker 2: walk through parks on your own, that sort of thing, 729 00:47:48,862 --> 00:47:53,262 Speaker 2: and wow, the pylon on him a victim blaming. But 730 00:47:53,342 --> 00:47:56,342 Speaker 2: I knew what Mick had been through and the guilt 731 00:47:56,382 --> 00:47:59,742 Speaker 2: that these fellows failed, and it was the advice he 732 00:47:59,782 --> 00:48:03,342 Speaker 2: would have given his own family. And imagine going to 733 00:48:03,422 --> 00:48:07,702 Speaker 2: an inquest of another murder and go, yeah, I thought 734 00:48:07,702 --> 00:48:09,942 Speaker 2: that was going to happen, but I. 735 00:48:09,862 --> 00:48:10,902 Speaker 3: Didn't want to anyone. 736 00:48:12,022 --> 00:48:14,422 Speaker 1: I want to end with Jane. Her story has inspired 737 00:48:14,422 --> 00:48:17,422 Speaker 1: a new Channel nine crime show that's currently airing, which 738 00:48:17,462 --> 00:48:20,982 Speaker 1: you helped with. Actually that is obviously based on real 739 00:48:21,022 --> 00:48:23,582 Speaker 1: events or inspired by real events, but it's got a 740 00:48:23,582 --> 00:48:28,062 Speaker 1: fictionalized lead character. Do you think that retelling the story 741 00:48:28,062 --> 00:48:30,302 Speaker 1: in a format like that is going to help the case? 742 00:48:31,582 --> 00:48:36,622 Speaker 2: It does show you one there are no secrets and 743 00:48:36,742 --> 00:48:42,302 Speaker 2: two the potential for mistaken identity type crimes, and. 744 00:48:42,262 --> 00:48:45,022 Speaker 1: It gets as talking about Jane, you know, separately, we're 745 00:48:45,062 --> 00:48:48,022 Speaker 1: doing a podcast right now about her story, so you know, 746 00:48:48,142 --> 00:48:50,982 Speaker 1: every little bit helps, hopefully nothing else. 747 00:48:51,262 --> 00:48:54,702 Speaker 2: There is a million dollars out there, and the person 748 00:48:54,902 --> 00:49:01,662 Speaker 2: who set this up is alive. So people connected with 749 00:49:01,822 --> 00:49:07,622 Speaker 2: Mardi or Reynolds, or the car thief, or the person 750 00:49:07,622 --> 00:49:10,862 Speaker 2: who provided the gun or the person it was the 751 00:49:10,862 --> 00:49:17,942 Speaker 2: go between who I believe has spoken to police. There's 752 00:49:18,022 --> 00:49:21,422 Speaker 2: a million dollars there. There is a brief of evidence 753 00:49:21,582 --> 00:49:26,622 Speaker 2: ready to go. And remember what we said regarding Messana Halvargas. 754 00:49:26,702 --> 00:49:28,982 Speaker 2: It was that one phone call from the policeman Paul 755 00:49:28,982 --> 00:49:34,902 Speaker 2: Scarlet to a person in jail in the lawyer Andrew Fraser, 756 00:49:35,342 --> 00:49:43,062 Speaker 2: that resulted everything turning around in about one minute. 757 00:49:45,542 --> 00:49:48,302 Speaker 1: Thanks to John Sylvester for assisting us to tell this story. 758 00:49:49,142 --> 00:49:52,222 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and 759 00:49:52,262 --> 00:49:55,742 Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bass, Nina Brown, and Tarlie Blackman, 760 00:49:55,982 --> 00:49:57,902 Speaker 1: with audio design by Scott Stronik,