1 00:00:08,234 --> 00:00:16,154 Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm Mom with mea podcast. Makeup is 2 00:00:16,194 --> 00:00:16,954 Speaker 1: my therapy. 3 00:00:17,194 --> 00:00:23,874 Speaker 2: I'm obsess and I don't even feel guilty of body. 4 00:00:24,794 --> 00:00:27,994 Speaker 1: Welcome back to you, beauty. I'm Kellen mcaren and today 5 00:00:28,074 --> 00:00:31,194 Speaker 1: we are chatting with a brilliant content creator, one of 6 00:00:31,274 --> 00:00:35,434 Speaker 1: my favorites honestly, who believes in beauty that balances utility 7 00:00:35,994 --> 00:00:39,193 Speaker 1: and a little bit of indulgence. He has built a 8 00:00:39,233 --> 00:00:42,714 Speaker 1: significant following by giving us the deep dive on ingredients, 9 00:00:42,793 --> 00:00:47,153 Speaker 1: holding brands accountable, and frankly giving us beauty without the bullshit. 10 00:00:47,754 --> 00:00:51,313 Speaker 1: He is the passionate advocate for evidence and consumer choice. 11 00:00:51,354 --> 00:00:56,474 Speaker 1: Please welcome Sam by the Counter. You are such beautiful skill. 12 00:00:56,594 --> 00:01:00,794 Speaker 1: But how welcome Sam? 13 00:01:00,954 --> 00:01:01,953 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 14 00:01:02,394 --> 00:01:05,194 Speaker 1: You've just told me off Mike that we are popping 15 00:01:05,274 --> 00:01:06,434 Speaker 1: your podcast, Cherry. 16 00:01:06,754 --> 00:01:09,514 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I've done a couple of IG lives, 17 00:01:09,554 --> 00:01:12,354 Speaker 2: but never a podcast, so this is a whole privilege 18 00:01:12,354 --> 00:01:12,594 Speaker 2: for me. 19 00:01:13,034 --> 00:01:15,034 Speaker 1: It's way better than lives, I think, because if you 20 00:01:15,074 --> 00:01:17,154 Speaker 1: do say something, we can just edit it out, like 21 00:01:17,434 --> 00:01:18,874 Speaker 1: I say silly things all the time. 22 00:01:18,954 --> 00:01:20,074 Speaker 2: Fair enough, that's good to know. 23 00:01:20,914 --> 00:01:25,274 Speaker 1: Let's start with Stam by the Counter, your Instagram account, 24 00:01:25,354 --> 00:01:29,754 Speaker 1: your brand, why did you start it? Was it all 25 00:01:29,994 --> 00:01:33,034 Speaker 1: about getting rid of you mentioned before that it was 26 00:01:33,034 --> 00:01:36,594 Speaker 1: about getting rid of this whole like clean beauty. Was 27 00:01:36,634 --> 00:01:39,274 Speaker 1: that the original reason behind starting the account? 28 00:01:39,514 --> 00:01:42,354 Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of Like I don't have a science background, 29 00:01:42,394 --> 00:01:44,834 Speaker 2: so I wasn't in a position to actually talk about 30 00:01:44,874 --> 00:01:48,514 Speaker 2: things from like a place of authority myself. But I 31 00:01:48,594 --> 00:01:50,674 Speaker 2: wanted to try and get to a point, even in 32 00:01:50,714 --> 00:01:53,834 Speaker 2: a small way, where I could probably amplify the voices 33 00:01:53,874 --> 00:01:57,794 Speaker 2: that I felt like were actually adding a scientific lens 34 00:01:57,834 --> 00:02:01,714 Speaker 2: to a topic instead of just marketing. So I was, yeah, 35 00:02:01,794 --> 00:02:03,674 Speaker 2: trying to come at it more so from how can 36 00:02:03,714 --> 00:02:07,554 Speaker 2: I help rather than being like the primary leader of that. 37 00:02:07,794 --> 00:02:11,114 Speaker 1: Okay, that's really interesting though, and I will get you 38 00:02:11,114 --> 00:02:12,874 Speaker 1: too later on in the episode. Maybe tell me some 39 00:02:12,913 --> 00:02:16,394 Speaker 1: of your favorite scientific voices in Australia that you like 40 00:02:16,434 --> 00:02:20,434 Speaker 1: to listen to. Yes, but what is in your opinion, 41 00:02:20,474 --> 00:02:25,994 Speaker 1: the single most harmful sort of skincare rule or piece 42 00:02:26,034 --> 00:02:30,834 Speaker 1: of clean beauty propaganda that you've had to unlearn yourself 43 00:02:31,114 --> 00:02:34,914 Speaker 1: and that you see the most often sort of trolling 44 00:02:34,954 --> 00:02:36,034 Speaker 1: around to the interwebs. 45 00:02:36,514 --> 00:02:39,034 Speaker 2: Look, I guess these days we're bombarded with a lot 46 00:02:39,034 --> 00:02:41,914 Speaker 2: of health advice, a lot of wellness advice, and you 47 00:02:41,954 --> 00:02:44,794 Speaker 2: know that part clean beauty is part of that. Like 48 00:02:44,874 --> 00:02:48,514 Speaker 2: clean beauty loves a shortcut. So there's a concept called 49 00:02:48,554 --> 00:02:51,953 Speaker 2: like correlation does not equal causation, which is like I guess, 50 00:02:51,994 --> 00:02:55,354 Speaker 2: a scientific or really a real world concept, but clean 51 00:02:55,394 --> 00:02:58,633 Speaker 2: Beauty thinks of things in a way where it's like 52 00:02:58,714 --> 00:03:03,514 Speaker 2: correlation does equal causation. So they basically take an ingredient 53 00:03:04,234 --> 00:03:07,074 Speaker 2: and it might so harm in one context, but then 54 00:03:07,274 --> 00:03:10,194 Speaker 2: they apply that harm in all or in like all 55 00:03:10,314 --> 00:03:12,394 Speaker 2: different ways. So it's just jumping to a lot of 56 00:03:12,434 --> 00:03:16,994 Speaker 2: conclusions without really taking into account dose or context or 57 00:03:17,114 --> 00:03:19,913 Speaker 2: vehicle or anything helse in terms of how product might 58 00:03:19,954 --> 00:03:22,834 Speaker 2: be made. So it's just like a glimmer of truth 59 00:03:22,914 --> 00:03:27,514 Speaker 2: that gets expanded into this whole like fear munger e story. 60 00:03:28,034 --> 00:03:30,314 Speaker 1: Do you know in one sentence, I think that you've 61 00:03:30,514 --> 00:03:35,234 Speaker 1: just better articulated why clean beauty is bullshit better than 62 00:03:35,234 --> 00:03:39,994 Speaker 1: anyone ever. Thank you well done. That I'm going to 63 00:03:40,074 --> 00:03:42,634 Speaker 1: now steal that, and when I'm explaining it to people, 64 00:03:42,674 --> 00:03:46,874 Speaker 1: that was genius. You often say that reading an ingredient 65 00:03:47,034 --> 00:03:48,834 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean much or when you're looking at it 66 00:03:48,834 --> 00:03:53,754 Speaker 1: in the list, because full formulation is key and unfortunately 67 00:03:53,754 --> 00:03:56,194 Speaker 1: for the average person when they're standing in a pharmacy 68 00:03:56,194 --> 00:04:00,754 Speaker 1: aisle and they're trying to look at the ingredients and see, oh, 69 00:04:00,794 --> 00:04:02,674 Speaker 1: how does this one compare, and what's in this one? 70 00:04:02,714 --> 00:04:05,354 Speaker 1: What's on that one? What is the biggest mistake you 71 00:04:05,394 --> 00:04:07,554 Speaker 1: think that people make when they're trying to figure if 72 00:04:07,594 --> 00:04:08,874 Speaker 1: a product is actually good? 73 00:04:09,314 --> 00:04:11,634 Speaker 2: I guess social media has done a really good job 74 00:04:11,794 --> 00:04:16,234 Speaker 2: at creating short bursts of information, so we see things 75 00:04:16,313 --> 00:04:19,594 Speaker 2: as good or bad for nearly everything that we interact with, 76 00:04:20,113 --> 00:04:23,753 Speaker 2: whereas the reality of cosmetic design or product design is 77 00:04:23,794 --> 00:04:26,714 Speaker 2: that ingredients come in different grades and different formats. So 78 00:04:26,914 --> 00:04:29,433 Speaker 2: you might see something on an inky list, but it 79 00:04:29,474 --> 00:04:32,154 Speaker 2: actually belongs to a class of ingredients. So there could 80 00:04:32,234 --> 00:04:35,314 Speaker 2: be a different molecular weight, there could be a different viscosity, 81 00:04:35,474 --> 00:04:38,474 Speaker 2: or just a different texture that you can't actually tell 82 00:04:38,513 --> 00:04:42,713 Speaker 2: from an ingredient list. So there's very little usefulness from 83 00:04:42,753 --> 00:04:46,073 Speaker 2: reading because you're almost trying to decipher how somebody's put 84 00:04:46,073 --> 00:04:51,394 Speaker 2: together a recipe without actually knowing the source quality, style, thickness, 85 00:04:51,553 --> 00:04:55,513 Speaker 2: anything of that source ingredient. So it just means things 86 00:04:55,633 --> 00:04:58,474 Speaker 2: like if it's for sensitive skin or acne clogging or 87 00:04:58,513 --> 00:05:01,394 Speaker 2: whatever it is. You can't really tell that from the list. 88 00:05:01,513 --> 00:05:03,674 Speaker 2: You have to go by what the brand is saying 89 00:05:03,674 --> 00:05:05,154 Speaker 2: in terms of their product claims. 90 00:05:05,674 --> 00:05:08,234 Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of like I always of baking. I 91 00:05:08,274 --> 00:05:10,553 Speaker 1: don't know why, but cakes always pop in my mind 92 00:05:10,674 --> 00:05:13,354 Speaker 1: when I'm thinking about you know, someone will say, oh, 93 00:05:13,433 --> 00:05:15,794 Speaker 1: I found this dupe and I use that in air 94 00:05:15,873 --> 00:05:19,193 Speaker 1: quotes for this skin care product. It's got the same 95 00:05:19,354 --> 00:05:22,993 Speaker 1: ingredient or similar ingredients list, and it's like, well, it might, 96 00:05:23,313 --> 00:05:26,993 Speaker 1: but you could have two chocolate cakes and they might 97 00:05:27,034 --> 00:05:30,073 Speaker 1: have the exact same ingredients. They might even have the 98 00:05:30,113 --> 00:05:34,154 Speaker 1: same formula, but the quality of those ingredients means that 99 00:05:34,594 --> 00:05:38,794 Speaker 1: one chocolate cake might taste really really budget and kind 100 00:05:38,794 --> 00:05:42,073 Speaker 1: of plasticking and gross, and the other one is, you know, 101 00:05:42,154 --> 00:05:45,353 Speaker 1: like a Haig's chocolate cake, like the most luxurious, decadent 102 00:05:45,433 --> 00:05:46,713 Speaker 1: chocolate cake you've ever tasted. 103 00:05:47,193 --> 00:05:51,073 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That is the best analogy. And even just 104 00:05:51,113 --> 00:05:53,433 Speaker 2: the skill of the formulator. It could even be the 105 00:05:53,513 --> 00:05:58,194 Speaker 2: exact same ingredients, but by adjusting certain ratios you get 106 00:05:58,234 --> 00:06:01,713 Speaker 2: an entirely different result. So it's everything. There's like a 107 00:06:01,753 --> 00:06:04,473 Speaker 2: lot going on. We've got to trust the process a 108 00:06:04,513 --> 00:06:07,993 Speaker 2: bit more rather than think we're the professionals when we're 109 00:06:08,034 --> 00:06:09,553 Speaker 2: just not. I'm sorry to say so. 110 00:06:09,834 --> 00:06:13,753 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was recently talking with someone else about the 111 00:06:13,753 --> 00:06:17,674 Speaker 1: free from list that it's not like if that's how 112 00:06:17,714 --> 00:06:20,354 Speaker 1: someone's marketing their products, that's the first thing they've got. 113 00:06:20,393 --> 00:06:22,954 Speaker 1: It's kind of like, well, really, I don't care, what 114 00:06:22,993 --> 00:06:25,914 Speaker 1: does it actually happen it? But you say that the 115 00:06:25,953 --> 00:06:28,154 Speaker 1: free from lists are the worst thing to have happened 116 00:06:28,193 --> 00:06:32,313 Speaker 1: to the industry because they're manipulative. How exactly do you 117 00:06:32,354 --> 00:06:35,993 Speaker 1: think brands are using this clean beauty propaganda to scare 118 00:06:36,073 --> 00:06:39,553 Speaker 1: us into buying their stuff, and how do we sort 119 00:06:39,594 --> 00:06:42,394 Speaker 1: of look through it or pasted it as consumers. 120 00:06:42,873 --> 00:06:45,753 Speaker 2: So it's like a classic sales technique where they're trying 121 00:06:45,794 --> 00:06:48,753 Speaker 2: to create a problem to then sell a solution, and 122 00:06:48,873 --> 00:06:51,833 Speaker 2: often it's more expensive, more difficult to saw. So you're 123 00:06:51,873 --> 00:06:55,513 Speaker 2: just down this road of like trying to search for things, 124 00:06:56,193 --> 00:06:58,153 Speaker 2: you know, that are trying to be really specialize when 125 00:06:58,154 --> 00:07:00,393 Speaker 2: really they don't need to be. So they do a 126 00:07:00,433 --> 00:07:03,433 Speaker 2: lot of cherry picking of information where there's maybe like 127 00:07:03,474 --> 00:07:05,834 Speaker 2: a glimmer of truth that's been selected and then they 128 00:07:05,873 --> 00:07:08,914 Speaker 2: turn that into a whole story line. Clean beauty tends 129 00:07:08,953 --> 00:07:12,153 Speaker 2: to ignore a lot of toxicology, Like everything we interact 130 00:07:12,154 --> 00:07:15,594 Speaker 2: with as consumers, there are people actually checking that stuff. 131 00:07:15,674 --> 00:07:18,194 Speaker 2: They know that we're using multiple products in a day, 132 00:07:18,754 --> 00:07:21,874 Speaker 2: they know what the relevant dosages are where there's a 133 00:07:21,914 --> 00:07:24,154 Speaker 2: point where something might be a problem, but when you're 134 00:07:24,274 --> 00:07:26,913 Speaker 2: using a you know, in a small amount, it's fine. 135 00:07:27,274 --> 00:07:29,634 Speaker 2: So all of these things are already taken to account 136 00:07:29,634 --> 00:07:31,754 Speaker 2: for us. But clean beauty just sort of acts like 137 00:07:31,834 --> 00:07:34,274 Speaker 2: it's the wild West, and it's just it's simply not 138 00:07:34,393 --> 00:07:34,834 Speaker 2: that way. 139 00:07:35,194 --> 00:07:38,314 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I always think about people should use if 140 00:07:38,314 --> 00:07:40,634 Speaker 1: it says cruelty free on the front, like what does 141 00:07:40,674 --> 00:07:44,114 Speaker 1: that mean? There's no one that's like getting the bunnies 142 00:07:44,234 --> 00:07:47,514 Speaker 1: and putting products on the bunnies anymore. That's not happening. 143 00:07:47,514 --> 00:07:48,674 Speaker 1: What does cruelty free mean? 144 00:07:49,354 --> 00:07:52,393 Speaker 2: This is really complicated because it's quite an emotional topic, 145 00:07:52,594 --> 00:07:56,554 Speaker 2: so it's hard to discuss without triggering people. But the 146 00:07:56,594 --> 00:07:58,594 Speaker 2: way that I think about it is that, you know, 147 00:07:58,754 --> 00:08:01,354 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody wants animal testing to be a thing, 148 00:08:01,994 --> 00:08:04,554 Speaker 2: but there's also a point there where we need to 149 00:08:04,634 --> 00:08:07,754 Speaker 2: know how to demonstrate safety of ingredients. So there has 150 00:08:07,794 --> 00:08:10,033 Speaker 2: to be a way of testing that stuff, which historically 151 00:08:10,154 --> 00:08:13,554 Speaker 2: was done on animals. Now, what I don't understand with 152 00:08:13,594 --> 00:08:16,114 Speaker 2: this whole conversation is that in order to get to 153 00:08:16,154 --> 00:08:18,994 Speaker 2: the point where we've got alternative testing methods, somebody has 154 00:08:18,994 --> 00:08:21,833 Speaker 2: to put that bill and a lot of that development 155 00:08:21,874 --> 00:08:24,434 Speaker 2: has come from the big brand. So like the conglomerates 156 00:08:24,434 --> 00:08:28,874 Speaker 2: that are always on the anti sort of boycott lists 157 00:08:28,874 --> 00:08:31,514 Speaker 2: for cruelty free reasons, but those are the brands that 158 00:08:31,594 --> 00:08:34,154 Speaker 2: are actually paying for the research to get us to 159 00:08:34,194 --> 00:08:36,514 Speaker 2: a point of not having to rely on animal testing. 160 00:08:37,074 --> 00:08:38,234 Speaker 2: And then you've got all of them. 161 00:08:38,394 --> 00:08:41,034 Speaker 1: They're the ones that are paying, yeah, for the small 162 00:08:41,074 --> 00:08:42,634 Speaker 1: people to then go cooelty free. 163 00:08:42,834 --> 00:08:45,034 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So you've got all of these small brands 164 00:08:45,034 --> 00:08:48,074 Speaker 2: that are benefiting from their research. The only reason they 165 00:08:48,074 --> 00:08:50,434 Speaker 2: can be cruelty free is because the big brands have 166 00:08:50,514 --> 00:08:53,794 Speaker 2: solved the problem. And then somehow the people that have 167 00:08:54,354 --> 00:08:56,874 Speaker 2: done all the effort are getting blamed for it. So 168 00:08:57,434 --> 00:08:59,274 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff doesn't make sense to me. I 169 00:08:59,314 --> 00:09:01,394 Speaker 2: wish we could all be a bit more reasonable about 170 00:09:01,434 --> 00:09:03,794 Speaker 2: it and realize that we're actually all in this together 171 00:09:04,114 --> 00:09:05,514 Speaker 2: trying to get to the same place. 172 00:09:05,954 --> 00:09:07,794 Speaker 1: We'll just use a little bit more critical thinking. 173 00:09:08,354 --> 00:09:11,034 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm fairness, you know, we can't just jump from 174 00:09:11,074 --> 00:09:13,794 Speaker 2: A to Z in one month, you know, it takes 175 00:09:13,834 --> 00:09:14,434 Speaker 2: a bit of time. 176 00:09:14,594 --> 00:09:23,354 Speaker 1: So, yeah, what do you think is the single biggest 177 00:09:23,474 --> 00:09:26,634 Speaker 1: skin care myth that you hear constantly or see constantly 178 00:09:26,914 --> 00:09:30,674 Speaker 1: on socials that drives you mad? And what is the 179 00:09:30,914 --> 00:09:32,554 Speaker 1: real talk argument against it? 180 00:09:32,994 --> 00:09:35,194 Speaker 2: So this is more of a pet peeve of mine 181 00:09:35,274 --> 00:09:36,354 Speaker 2: and I really dislike it. 182 00:09:36,434 --> 00:09:37,354 Speaker 1: I love it. 183 00:09:38,274 --> 00:09:41,434 Speaker 2: I dislike the anti fragrance rhetoric where it's like if 184 00:09:41,434 --> 00:09:44,074 Speaker 2: you've got sensitive skin or anything like that, where you 185 00:09:44,114 --> 00:09:48,154 Speaker 2: automatically have to avoid fragrance ingredients or sometimes even alcohol. 186 00:09:48,634 --> 00:09:50,914 Speaker 2: And it's like, again, it's the thing where there are 187 00:09:50,914 --> 00:09:54,554 Speaker 2: professionals behind these ingredients. Fragrances can be designed to a 188 00:09:54,594 --> 00:09:58,714 Speaker 2: point where they're almost hypoelergenic. They've been tested so thoroughly 189 00:09:59,154 --> 00:10:01,674 Speaker 2: that if a brand is putting fragrance in something that's 190 00:10:01,674 --> 00:10:04,274 Speaker 2: made for sensitive skin, you can probably trust that that 191 00:10:04,314 --> 00:10:07,074 Speaker 2: it's going to be fine for most people. Now, of course, 192 00:10:07,194 --> 00:10:09,674 Speaker 2: there are certain people that have allergies and that doesn't 193 00:10:09,674 --> 00:10:12,714 Speaker 2: apply to you, but for the general public, you don't 194 00:10:12,754 --> 00:10:15,234 Speaker 2: need to live your life like you have an allergy. 195 00:10:15,394 --> 00:10:18,994 Speaker 2: These things are designed with intention, so just chill, you know. 196 00:10:19,354 --> 00:10:24,394 Speaker 1: And also sometimes natural quote ingredients have really strong fragrances, 197 00:10:24,434 --> 00:10:29,314 Speaker 1: like insanely strong fragrances, So sometimes you almost need the 198 00:10:29,474 --> 00:10:33,434 Speaker 1: science to remove the strength to some of those fragrances. 199 00:10:33,474 --> 00:10:35,474 Speaker 1: Otherwise you couldn't just walk around with them on you. 200 00:10:35,754 --> 00:10:38,514 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it makes no sense to prefer like an essential 201 00:10:38,514 --> 00:10:42,154 Speaker 2: oil or a natural fragrance versus something that's synthetic, because 202 00:10:42,154 --> 00:10:45,994 Speaker 2: synthetics are much more intentionally controlled and they can you know, 203 00:10:46,114 --> 00:10:49,194 Speaker 2: just the safety profiles are much more predictable. So yeah, 204 00:10:49,234 --> 00:10:51,914 Speaker 2: all of that doesn't make sense. Another clean beauty weirdness 205 00:10:51,954 --> 00:10:53,794 Speaker 2: that I don't understand. 206 00:10:53,714 --> 00:10:55,994 Speaker 1: And you have pointed out that I think this is 207 00:10:56,034 --> 00:10:59,074 Speaker 1: so interesting that the pressure has moved from it's not 208 00:10:59,274 --> 00:11:03,754 Speaker 1: just appearance, but there's moral judgment, and we see like 209 00:11:04,114 --> 00:11:08,554 Speaker 1: moral outrage all the time on social media, so people 210 00:11:08,554 --> 00:11:13,354 Speaker 1: get shamed over cruelty free or how much something is recyclable. 211 00:11:14,434 --> 00:11:21,713 Speaker 1: How has moral superiority made the entire beauty conversation more complicated? 212 00:11:21,834 --> 00:11:26,474 Speaker 2: You think it just it's made it become more about appearances. 213 00:11:26,554 --> 00:11:28,914 Speaker 2: So it's sort of like you might have a brand 214 00:11:28,954 --> 00:11:32,554 Speaker 2: that doesn't tout like refill systems for their packaging, but 215 00:11:32,634 --> 00:11:35,954 Speaker 2: maybe that's because they're using a really small form factor 216 00:11:35,994 --> 00:11:38,034 Speaker 2: to begin with, so maybe it doesn't make sense to 217 00:11:38,074 --> 00:11:40,674 Speaker 2: have refills, And then you've got other brands that are 218 00:11:40,674 --> 00:11:44,874 Speaker 2: developing these huge packaging systems where the outer shell is 219 00:11:44,914 --> 00:11:49,274 Speaker 2: really quite bulky, or to accommodate a refill, But the 220 00:11:49,354 --> 00:11:52,874 Speaker 2: reality is the actual trade off on how often you 221 00:11:52,874 --> 00:11:55,714 Speaker 2: need to rebuy the refill to offset the initial packaging 222 00:11:56,234 --> 00:11:59,314 Speaker 2: means that that other brand that's not marketing refills is 223 00:11:59,314 --> 00:12:02,234 Speaker 2: probably going to be more sustainable. So it's sort of 224 00:12:02,354 --> 00:12:05,114 Speaker 2: like the brands are doing things just so they can 225 00:12:05,154 --> 00:12:07,954 Speaker 2: say they're doing it, rather than actually choosing the path 226 00:12:08,034 --> 00:12:11,754 Speaker 2: that might lead to real world changes. So yeah, again, 227 00:12:11,794 --> 00:12:14,434 Speaker 2: it's just it all comes back to marketing unfortunately, and 228 00:12:14,514 --> 00:12:18,634 Speaker 2: that it's really the optics absolutely yep. So it's sort 229 00:12:18,634 --> 00:12:22,314 Speaker 2: of like virtue signaling is a marketing fool now, and unfortunately, 230 00:12:22,394 --> 00:12:24,834 Speaker 2: you know, people do just look at it from a 231 00:12:24,874 --> 00:12:28,274 Speaker 2: surface level because ultimately nobody has time to spend a 232 00:12:28,274 --> 00:12:32,234 Speaker 2: few hours properly investigating a brand. You'll see a post 233 00:12:32,234 --> 00:12:34,754 Speaker 2: and make a decision from that, and brands just pray 234 00:12:34,834 --> 00:12:35,074 Speaker 2: on that. 235 00:12:35,234 --> 00:12:38,074 Speaker 1: So yeah, like, oh great they do Rayphil's wonderful better 236 00:12:38,154 --> 00:12:40,034 Speaker 1: things you purchasing. 237 00:12:40,034 --> 00:12:40,754 Speaker 2: Just not that simple. 238 00:12:41,114 --> 00:12:46,674 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's move into some personal reviews of yours. Let's 239 00:12:46,674 --> 00:12:51,554 Speaker 1: talk heroes. What are your top three favorite products at 240 00:12:51,554 --> 00:12:54,274 Speaker 1: the time of recording. Obviously, you know everyone knows if 241 00:12:54,314 --> 00:12:56,874 Speaker 1: you're in this industry, we're constantly chopping and changing and 242 00:12:56,954 --> 00:13:00,514 Speaker 1: trying different things. But at the moment. 243 00:13:00,794 --> 00:13:03,034 Speaker 2: So I've got two holy grails that honestly I have 244 00:13:03,114 --> 00:13:06,514 Speaker 2: been using for several years and I don't see them changing. Wow, 245 00:13:06,754 --> 00:13:09,594 Speaker 2: So this is like true true favorites. One is a 246 00:13:09,634 --> 00:13:13,234 Speaker 2: moisturizer called bee Cream from a small brand in Canada 247 00:13:13,274 --> 00:13:16,474 Speaker 2: called Build and I really like them because they don't 248 00:13:16,514 --> 00:13:19,794 Speaker 2: follow clean beauty principles. They're still petrolatum in here mixed 249 00:13:19,834 --> 00:13:23,154 Speaker 2: with some squalane and glycerine of course, so just a 250 00:13:23,194 --> 00:13:27,194 Speaker 2: really solid, basic moisturizer. But the technology of the emulsion 251 00:13:27,274 --> 00:13:30,154 Speaker 2: is quite interesting. It uses a Lamela gel, so you 252 00:13:30,234 --> 00:13:34,394 Speaker 2: get this super lightweight texture, but it's actually moisturizing all days. 253 00:13:34,434 --> 00:13:36,554 Speaker 2: So that's a huge, huge favor and I pretty much 254 00:13:36,634 --> 00:13:37,794 Speaker 2: use it every single morning. 255 00:13:38,194 --> 00:13:40,474 Speaker 1: Wow, I've never heard someone talk about that product. 256 00:13:40,874 --> 00:13:43,754 Speaker 2: No, And this is very much like Niche to my account, 257 00:13:43,794 --> 00:13:46,154 Speaker 2: I think because I'm like the champaign of their brand. 258 00:13:46,274 --> 00:13:50,434 Speaker 1: Really over here, just like, come on, why are more 259 00:13:50,474 --> 00:13:51,874 Speaker 1: Australians not talking about that? 260 00:13:52,034 --> 00:13:54,994 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like Sarah Ven doesn't need more promotion, so let's 261 00:13:55,074 --> 00:13:58,874 Speaker 2: like hop on the indie brands if we can. So yeah. 262 00:13:59,034 --> 00:14:02,474 Speaker 2: Next is a cult favorite. That is the Biology Racheh 263 00:14:02,554 --> 00:14:05,994 Speaker 2: lotion P fifty. So that's my top top exfoliating acid 264 00:14:06,034 --> 00:14:07,954 Speaker 2: that I love. Have you tried it? 265 00:14:08,354 --> 00:14:11,474 Speaker 1: I have? I have. It is spectacular. I was almost 266 00:14:11,594 --> 00:14:13,714 Speaker 1: scared to use it though. It actually went off before 267 00:14:13,754 --> 00:14:16,154 Speaker 1: I finished it because I was terrified. Y, yes, because 268 00:14:16,154 --> 00:14:16,914 Speaker 1: it's so expensive. 269 00:14:16,994 --> 00:14:19,594 Speaker 2: Yes it is. Yeah, And for anybody that's struggling with 270 00:14:19,594 --> 00:14:22,034 Speaker 2: skin issues, I do think it's worth going down the 271 00:14:22,074 --> 00:14:24,954 Speaker 2: road of a biologic facial if you can, because they're 272 00:14:25,034 --> 00:14:28,114 Speaker 2: so focused on actually understanding skin condition that if you're 273 00:14:28,154 --> 00:14:31,194 Speaker 2: confused with what's going wrong, they can really help you. 274 00:14:31,394 --> 00:14:33,634 Speaker 2: And then they are pricey, but if you just use 275 00:14:33,674 --> 00:14:35,754 Speaker 2: one or two products, I think you can actually achieve 276 00:14:35,834 --> 00:14:36,714 Speaker 2: really good results. 277 00:14:36,754 --> 00:14:40,834 Speaker 1: So that's that, and that is the most talked about product. 278 00:14:40,914 --> 00:14:42,154 Speaker 1: How much is a bottle of that? 279 00:14:42,394 --> 00:14:44,554 Speaker 2: Oh, they've got a few different sizes, so I think 280 00:14:44,594 --> 00:14:47,154 Speaker 2: it probably starts at about eighty dollars for a mini 281 00:14:47,194 --> 00:14:49,154 Speaker 2: and then goes into like one hundred and fifty two 282 00:14:49,194 --> 00:14:50,914 Speaker 2: hundred dollars in that range. 283 00:14:50,634 --> 00:14:53,434 Speaker 1: So yeah, that also shows how little you don't have 284 00:14:53,474 --> 00:14:56,154 Speaker 1: to buy them that often. No, Yeah, they last a long. 285 00:14:56,034 --> 00:14:58,474 Speaker 2: Time, that's right, Yeah, especially the big sizes. And I 286 00:14:58,474 --> 00:15:02,154 Speaker 2: guess I thought I'd sneak into more recent favorites just quickly, 287 00:15:02,314 --> 00:15:05,394 Speaker 2: so I really enjoy the rationale. The milk concentrate which 288 00:15:05,434 --> 00:15:08,034 Speaker 2: is for like redness and suit, so that's like an 289 00:15:08,034 --> 00:15:12,714 Speaker 2: Australian I guess, luxury leaning brand. And very surprisingly the 290 00:15:12,794 --> 00:15:15,834 Speaker 2: new brand from Doua, which is by Augustin and Sparta. 291 00:15:16,474 --> 00:15:19,554 Speaker 2: This serum is sensational. It has everything you could ever 292 00:15:19,634 --> 00:15:22,274 Speaker 2: want for like barrier maintenance, and I think Dua Lipa 293 00:15:22,474 --> 00:15:25,914 Speaker 2: is secretly a skincare legend. It's more affordable than the mainline. 294 00:15:25,954 --> 00:15:28,074 Speaker 2: It's still a little bit more than sort of general 295 00:15:28,114 --> 00:15:30,954 Speaker 2: brands in pharmacy. But yeah, the whole concept is that 296 00:15:31,114 --> 00:15:33,794 Speaker 2: is that they've taken august and spartas science and made 297 00:15:33,794 --> 00:15:37,274 Speaker 2: a bit more accessible and maybe targeting a slightly more 298 00:15:37,394 --> 00:15:41,434 Speaker 2: like a younger demographic, you know, I guess fans. Yeah, 299 00:15:41,474 --> 00:15:44,794 Speaker 2: so that's super cool, But people are suspicious of celebrity brands, 300 00:15:44,794 --> 00:15:47,114 Speaker 2: but I think when they do it well, there's a 301 00:15:47,154 --> 00:15:50,074 Speaker 2: lot of you know, investment there that can really lead 302 00:15:50,114 --> 00:15:51,434 Speaker 2: to good quality results. 303 00:15:51,514 --> 00:15:55,034 Speaker 1: So yeah, especially that sort of collaboration that was that's 304 00:15:55,074 --> 00:15:57,994 Speaker 1: always going to be good. Yes, let's move on to 305 00:15:58,074 --> 00:16:02,314 Speaker 1: some overhyped and overrated products. So one of my favorite 306 00:16:02,354 --> 00:16:07,634 Speaker 1: things about following you is that I'll sometimes be thinking 307 00:16:07,754 --> 00:16:10,754 Speaker 1: something and then you'll say it, and I love that, 308 00:16:10,834 --> 00:16:13,154 Speaker 1: Like if something's just launching it's a little bit rubbish 309 00:16:13,234 --> 00:16:15,914 Speaker 1: or it's just not very impressive, You're very happy to 310 00:16:16,434 --> 00:16:19,434 Speaker 1: give credit where credits due, and then also just you know, 311 00:16:19,514 --> 00:16:22,234 Speaker 1: this one isn't for me, And I think that that's 312 00:16:22,314 --> 00:16:26,474 Speaker 1: really important in a market where there are just so 313 00:16:26,514 --> 00:16:28,594 Speaker 1: many different products launching all the time, and there are 314 00:16:28,634 --> 00:16:31,754 Speaker 1: so many people trying to flog you things to buy, 315 00:16:31,914 --> 00:16:34,274 Speaker 1: and you just never know who to trust or what 316 00:16:34,394 --> 00:16:39,234 Speaker 1: to buy. So what do you think are some sort 317 00:16:39,274 --> 00:16:44,234 Speaker 1: of current, really viral, very cult things on the market 318 00:16:44,314 --> 00:16:46,754 Speaker 1: that are just so overhyped or overrated? 319 00:16:47,074 --> 00:16:49,234 Speaker 2: Yeah? This is tough because I do try and like 320 00:16:49,274 --> 00:16:51,354 Speaker 2: I try to be as fair as I can, but 321 00:16:51,554 --> 00:16:54,674 Speaker 2: I kind of very fair, ye, thank you. I do 322 00:16:54,834 --> 00:16:57,514 Speaker 2: kind of think the takeover of Cay beauty has been 323 00:16:57,554 --> 00:17:00,434 Speaker 2: a little bit problematic because it's really added a lot 324 00:17:00,474 --> 00:17:04,754 Speaker 2: of just uselessness to the industry, with a lot of 325 00:17:04,834 --> 00:17:07,833 Speaker 2: like weird textures and a lot of things that designed 326 00:17:07,994 --> 00:17:11,794 Speaker 2: just for TikTok videos that probably aren't going to actually 327 00:17:12,154 --> 00:17:15,194 Speaker 2: lead down a road of like a good skin care result. 328 00:17:15,794 --> 00:17:18,033 Speaker 2: So and that's not to say that I dislike KY beauty. 329 00:17:18,034 --> 00:17:20,114 Speaker 2: I think there are some brilliant products. I would just 330 00:17:20,154 --> 00:17:23,354 Speaker 2: focus more on, like the real brand. So you've got 331 00:17:23,354 --> 00:17:26,554 Speaker 2: Saulwasu and Astora and those sorts of brands that actually 332 00:17:26,714 --> 00:17:30,714 Speaker 2: invest in development rather than theater. So there's nothing wrong with, 333 00:17:30,794 --> 00:17:33,114 Speaker 2: of course, buying something for fun every once in a while. 334 00:17:33,154 --> 00:17:35,474 Speaker 2: I just wouldn't make that part of my core routine. 335 00:17:35,634 --> 00:17:38,114 Speaker 2: And there's just a lot of problems in terms of 336 00:17:38,234 --> 00:17:41,714 Speaker 2: what we see as being viral because most things these days, unfortunately, 337 00:17:41,714 --> 00:17:45,954 Speaker 2: are not authentically viral. They're just secretly paid for campaigns 338 00:17:45,994 --> 00:17:48,114 Speaker 2: with really poor influencer disclosure. 339 00:17:48,354 --> 00:17:51,273 Speaker 1: So yeah, oh that's such a good point. And also, 340 00:17:51,754 --> 00:17:53,714 Speaker 1: just on the K beauty note, like no one needs 341 00:17:53,714 --> 00:17:55,474 Speaker 1: a twenty one step skincare return, No. 342 00:17:55,394 --> 00:17:58,834 Speaker 2: And I don't even think that's legitimately a K beauty thing. 343 00:17:58,954 --> 00:18:01,513 Speaker 2: It was just another marketing invention that hit the West. 344 00:18:01,634 --> 00:18:04,114 Speaker 2: And then, as we do with everything, we just sort 345 00:18:04,154 --> 00:18:07,434 Speaker 2: of take what we assume is happening and here it's it. 346 00:18:13,234 --> 00:18:17,874 Speaker 1: You love scent and texture in luxury products and with 347 00:18:18,194 --> 00:18:21,194 Speaker 1: more drug store what is one high end indulgent product 348 00:18:21,274 --> 00:18:24,434 Speaker 1: that you've reviewed lately that you felt justified the price tag? 349 00:18:24,674 --> 00:18:27,594 Speaker 2: So I am the biggest Chanel beauty fan. I can't 350 00:18:27,634 --> 00:18:30,874 Speaker 2: even tell you, and I think they're so underrated for 351 00:18:30,954 --> 00:18:35,674 Speaker 2: skin care, they are exceptional. I personally love their Soulimas collection, 352 00:18:35,834 --> 00:18:38,834 Speaker 2: which is quite pricey, so this is my splurge thing, 353 00:18:39,354 --> 00:18:43,513 Speaker 2: But most of Chanell's collection is very high quality, and 354 00:18:43,594 --> 00:18:46,034 Speaker 2: I guess, just to expand on that, I really resonate 355 00:18:46,074 --> 00:18:49,354 Speaker 2: with brands that focus on skin condition more than skin type. 356 00:18:49,794 --> 00:18:52,754 Speaker 2: So if you actually browse through Chanelle's offering, they often 357 00:18:52,874 --> 00:18:55,914 Speaker 2: have moisturizers in like a light texture, a medium, and 358 00:18:55,954 --> 00:18:59,354 Speaker 2: a heavy, so they're able to tailor the result that 359 00:18:59,394 --> 00:19:01,994 Speaker 2: you're after very much based on what your skin needs 360 00:19:01,994 --> 00:19:04,994 Speaker 2: in the moment or seasonally. And then on top of that, 361 00:19:05,074 --> 00:19:07,474 Speaker 2: they also operate a lot of their own farm. They 362 00:19:07,514 --> 00:19:09,954 Speaker 2: do a lot of their own ingredient extraction, so the 363 00:19:10,034 --> 00:19:12,634 Speaker 2: quality and the originality and all of that is there, 364 00:19:13,154 --> 00:19:16,354 Speaker 2: and all of those things together really like it makes 365 00:19:16,354 --> 00:19:19,434 Speaker 2: me feel like it's a truly luxurious experience where it's 366 00:19:19,474 --> 00:19:21,754 Speaker 2: not just about inflated prices. 367 00:19:21,594 --> 00:19:26,194 Speaker 1: And it does feel like a luxury totally. Chanell body 368 00:19:26,314 --> 00:19:29,074 Speaker 1: wash that I used for my first shower after I 369 00:19:29,194 --> 00:19:33,594 Speaker 1: birthed my child, Oh my god, it felt good to 370 00:19:34,874 --> 00:19:37,553 Speaker 1: like I smelt good. I felt like it was just 371 00:19:37,714 --> 00:19:41,434 Speaker 1: I felt so spoilt in pampered. Yeah, just from you know, 372 00:19:41,514 --> 00:19:42,594 Speaker 1: a Chanell body wash. 373 00:19:42,714 --> 00:19:45,914 Speaker 2: Yeah, but they actually, like, they actually have serious skin care. 374 00:19:46,074 --> 00:19:48,634 Speaker 2: So I think people just ignore them and they like 375 00:19:48,674 --> 00:19:50,634 Speaker 2: write them off as like a luxury brand. 376 00:19:51,074 --> 00:19:53,154 Speaker 1: But the amount of it, to be honest, I do, yeah, 377 00:19:53,194 --> 00:19:53,794 Speaker 1: everyone does. 378 00:19:53,834 --> 00:19:56,594 Speaker 2: It's just the amount of research and development and resources 379 00:19:56,594 --> 00:19:58,954 Speaker 2: they have would probably be best in class. 380 00:19:59,074 --> 00:20:04,634 Speaker 1: So yeah, wow, Okay, look at Chanelle. Who are some 381 00:20:04,754 --> 00:20:09,954 Speaker 1: of your favorite creator accounts or to follow and who 382 00:20:09,994 --> 00:20:13,434 Speaker 1: do you think sort of holds Brown's brands accountable? 383 00:20:14,114 --> 00:20:17,874 Speaker 2: I think in terms of Australia specifically, the queen of 384 00:20:18,034 --> 00:20:22,434 Speaker 2: everything is lab Muffin so Vichelle. I'm sure you've heard 385 00:20:22,474 --> 00:20:25,114 Speaker 2: of her, but if anybody listening has not, oh my gosh, 386 00:20:25,194 --> 00:20:29,794 Speaker 2: she's like just life changing. So if you haven't pleased, 387 00:20:29,794 --> 00:20:32,794 Speaker 2: buy her book because everything that I'm speaking about is 388 00:20:32,834 --> 00:20:37,154 Speaker 2: basically inspired by her. She is just like the top 389 00:20:37,594 --> 00:20:39,954 Speaker 2: top of the world in terms of how useful she 390 00:20:40,114 --> 00:20:43,634 Speaker 2: is in expanding your mind, maybe removing you out of 391 00:20:43,634 --> 00:20:47,074 Speaker 2: the clean beauty mindset and really giving you the tools 392 00:20:47,074 --> 00:20:50,194 Speaker 2: to be able to empower yourself and not move in 393 00:20:50,314 --> 00:20:52,954 Speaker 2: fear when you're trying to purchase things. So lab Muffin 394 00:20:53,034 --> 00:20:55,274 Speaker 2: is the Queen and if I can quickly shout out 395 00:20:55,314 --> 00:20:57,834 Speaker 2: also the Echo. Well she's based in Canada, but of 396 00:20:57,874 --> 00:21:00,954 Speaker 2: course you can still access her content in Australia. She 397 00:21:01,034 --> 00:21:03,714 Speaker 2: has a podcast and also on Instagram page and brings 398 00:21:03,714 --> 00:21:06,554 Speaker 2: together a lot of different experts from lots of different fields. 399 00:21:07,194 --> 00:21:10,034 Speaker 2: Those two accounts, if you follow them, your mind will 400 00:21:10,074 --> 00:21:11,674 Speaker 2: be set free. 401 00:21:11,914 --> 00:21:14,034 Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll get accurate. 402 00:21:13,634 --> 00:21:15,714 Speaker 2: Information, absolutely yes. 403 00:21:16,394 --> 00:21:20,074 Speaker 1: And finally, if you could leave our listeners with one 404 00:21:20,394 --> 00:21:23,834 Speaker 1: core takeaway about skincare, so what they need to stop doing, 405 00:21:24,394 --> 00:21:26,674 Speaker 1: what they need to start trusting, what would it be. 406 00:21:27,074 --> 00:21:30,594 Speaker 2: I'd say maybe lead with desire more than fear. So 407 00:21:30,714 --> 00:21:33,634 Speaker 2: that's really been the whole topic that I'm trying to instill, 408 00:21:34,114 --> 00:21:36,434 Speaker 2: is if you see something and you like the sound 409 00:21:36,474 --> 00:21:39,274 Speaker 2: of it, just try it. It's not going to be harmful, 410 00:21:39,674 --> 00:21:43,074 Speaker 2: assuming you're purchasing it from a reputable retailer and it's 411 00:21:43,114 --> 00:21:46,834 Speaker 2: not some random marketplace. So just if something sounds nice 412 00:21:46,874 --> 00:21:49,154 Speaker 2: to you, don't worry so much about the fragrance or 413 00:21:49,194 --> 00:21:52,354 Speaker 2: the alcohol or the silicones or the parabens or whatever. 414 00:21:52,794 --> 00:21:54,754 Speaker 2: All of that stuff, if it's in your product, is 415 00:21:54,834 --> 00:21:58,114 Speaker 2: fine to use, I promise, And just take what you 416 00:21:58,154 --> 00:22:01,754 Speaker 2: see on social media as a guide, maybe as inspiration, 417 00:22:01,994 --> 00:22:04,994 Speaker 2: but not gospel. So I can't sit here and tell 418 00:22:05,034 --> 00:22:07,634 Speaker 2: you what will work for you. Skincare is very much 419 00:22:07,674 --> 00:22:11,114 Speaker 2: just trial and error, so just take things as like 420 00:22:11,554 --> 00:22:14,314 Speaker 2: a way to explore. But then you have to ultimately 421 00:22:14,354 --> 00:22:15,394 Speaker 2: listen to your own skin. 422 00:22:15,914 --> 00:22:20,114 Speaker 1: And I always try to remind people that companies and 423 00:22:20,234 --> 00:22:22,394 Speaker 1: brands aren't trying to kill or damage. 424 00:22:22,034 --> 00:22:22,954 Speaker 2: Back exactly right. 425 00:22:23,074 --> 00:22:27,154 Speaker 1: Yes, no one wants that lawsuit. No one wants the lawsuit. 426 00:22:27,314 --> 00:22:33,074 Speaker 1: So if it's a reputable place and brand, it's okay. 427 00:22:32,594 --> 00:22:35,634 Speaker 2: That's right. They want your loyalty, they're not trying to harm. 428 00:22:35,674 --> 00:22:38,954 Speaker 1: They want your ongoing money. They don't want you taking 429 00:22:38,954 --> 00:22:40,754 Speaker 1: money from them with a potential laws. 430 00:22:40,794 --> 00:22:43,594 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Yeah, And I guess if I can just 431 00:22:43,634 --> 00:22:46,714 Speaker 2: add some like because often the feedback that I get 432 00:22:46,834 --> 00:22:51,114 Speaker 2: is people might have seen examples of situations where something 433 00:22:51,114 --> 00:22:53,234 Speaker 2: has gone wrong, or we've found out something has been 434 00:22:53,274 --> 00:22:56,634 Speaker 2: bad about a product. That's an exception, So like bad 435 00:22:56,674 --> 00:22:59,154 Speaker 2: things happen, we you know, you might go to Colls 436 00:22:59,234 --> 00:23:00,914 Speaker 2: or All Words and you buy spinach and then you 437 00:23:00,954 --> 00:23:03,594 Speaker 2: find out there was a recall. That doesn't mean that 438 00:23:03,634 --> 00:23:06,474 Speaker 2: spinach is bad. It just means that's something along the way. 439 00:23:06,674 --> 00:23:10,474 Speaker 2: Something happens sometimes, but those are the things that you 440 00:23:10,514 --> 00:23:12,954 Speaker 2: can't control. So you just have to kind of rely 441 00:23:13,034 --> 00:23:15,394 Speaker 2: on the fact that your skin is a barrier. It's 442 00:23:15,434 --> 00:23:18,274 Speaker 2: there to shield you from the environment, and so applying 443 00:23:18,274 --> 00:23:21,354 Speaker 2: a moisturizer a serum is not going to affect you 444 00:23:21,394 --> 00:23:23,474 Speaker 2: in a way that clean viewty might imply. 445 00:23:24,154 --> 00:23:27,314 Speaker 1: Of course, And thank you so much for joining us, Sam, 446 00:23:27,914 --> 00:23:30,754 Speaker 1: that was really incredible. You have given us the perfect 447 00:23:30,754 --> 00:23:33,354 Speaker 1: dose of reality and the anecdote we need for all 448 00:23:33,434 --> 00:23:36,194 Speaker 1: of the confusion out there. Thank you so much for 449 00:23:36,274 --> 00:23:38,714 Speaker 1: like stripping away the bullshit and just giving us the facts. 450 00:23:38,794 --> 00:23:42,194 Speaker 1: You blew both mine and my producers like you blew 451 00:23:42,194 --> 00:23:44,914 Speaker 1: our minds several times in that chat for anyone listening. 452 00:23:44,914 --> 00:23:48,114 Speaker 1: If you want more science backed, deeply honest product reviews, 453 00:23:48,194 --> 00:23:50,994 Speaker 1: make sure you're following Sam by the Counter on Instagram. 454 00:23:51,114 --> 00:23:53,354 Speaker 1: You will not regret it, and thank you so much 455 00:23:53,354 --> 00:23:55,994 Speaker 1: for listening to you, beauty. We'll catch you next time.