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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mumma Mea podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm Taylor Strano. This is Mumma MEA's twice daily

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Speaker 2: news podcast, The Quickie. There's been new allegations leveled against

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Speaker 2: Justin Baldoni. If you've lost track of the legal drama

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Speaker 2: swirling around Baldoni and his co star Blake Lively, don't worry.

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Speaker 2: I'll jog your memory. Plus, is the name Karen finally

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Speaker 2: being replaced as the internet's ultimate villain.

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Speaker 1: Millennials. They are out here trying to decide what's our

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Speaker 1: generation's name equivalent For a Karen, we will pick our

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Speaker 1: own Karen. We know exactly who are the a holes

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Speaker 1: of our generation.

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Speaker 2: If you were born somewhere between the late eighties and

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Speaker 2: early two thousands, be warned your name could be next

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Speaker 2: before we get there. Here's Cler Murphy with the latest

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Speaker 2: from The Quickie newsroom for Thursday, August twenty one.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Taylor. A court has been told that us Lerman

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Speaker 1: told a number of lies during his defamation trial against

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Speaker 1: Channel ten and journalist Lisa Wilkinson because he was trying

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Speaker 1: not to expose himself as a rapist. The former political

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Speaker 1: staffer was found by Federal Court Justice Michael Lee to have,

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Speaker 1: on the balance of probabilities, raped his colleague Britney Higgins

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Speaker 1: in Parliament House in twenty nineteen. The civil court finding

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Speaker 1: came after Luhman's sued Network Ten and Wilkinson for defamation

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Speaker 1: over a twenty twenty one interview with miss Higgins in

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Speaker 1: which he aired the allegations. Lherman has launched an appeal

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Speaker 1: against the ruling in the Federal Court, arguing he was

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Speaker 1: denied procedural fairness because the factual findings differed from the

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Speaker 1: case run by Ten. He's also taken aim at Justice

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Speaker 1: Lee's ruling that he would only be entitled to twenty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars in damages if he was successful in proving defamation,

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Speaker 1: claiming the figure is manifestly inadequate. But Miss Wilkinson's lawyer

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Speaker 1: told the court that his repeated acts of dishonesty throughout

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Speaker 1: the trial and beforehand meant the award of damages could

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Speaker 1: not be deemed inadequate, saying Lhman had told a number

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Speaker 1: of lies because he knew that telling the truth would

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Speaker 1: expose him as a rapist. Lherman's lawyer told the Appeal

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Speaker 1: Court on Wednesday that Justice Lee's ruling meant Lerman had

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Speaker 1: become probably the most damaged man in Australia, saying the

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Speaker 1: media attention aggravated by commentary from Channel ten and Wilkinson

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Speaker 1: led to a flood of hateful social media comments aimed

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Speaker 1: at Lhman, which meant he's pretty much become a national joke.

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Speaker 1: Lherman maintains he did not sexually assault Miss Higgins. A

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Speaker 1: criminal case against him in twenty twenty two was abandoned

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Speaker 1: without any finding against him due to during misconduct. The

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Speaker 1: appeal hearing continues today. Queensland Police say they believe they

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Speaker 1: know the location of the man who threw hot coffee

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Speaker 1: on a baby in a park last year. Lucas suffered

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Speaker 1: horrific burns when a stranger poured scolding hot coffee on

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Speaker 1: the infant's head at a Brisbane park picnic before fleeing.

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Speaker 1: In August twenty twenty four. His image was shared from

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Speaker 1: the park's CCTV cameras Police announcing last year they believe

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Speaker 1: the man had fled the country just twelve hours before

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Speaker 1: they were able to identify him. They didn't say at

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Speaker 1: the time where they believed the man had gone. Yesterday

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Speaker 1: they announced the thirty three year old had traveled to China,

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Speaker 1: a country Australia has no extradition treaty with Queensland Police,

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Speaker 1: saying they value the ongoing cooperation from Chinese authorities that

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Speaker 1: they continue to work with them to explore options for

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Speaker 1: progressing the matter. Eight surgeries and almost twelve months later,

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Speaker 1: Luca is healing. His mother, who cannot be identified, says

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Speaker 1: her little boy, who is now too deserves justice, pleading

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Speaker 1: with those in power to not make them wait another

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Speaker 1: year and to not let the man escape accountability for

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Speaker 1: hurting a child. A sweeping review of Victoria's childcare sector

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Speaker 1: found the state's childcare watchdogs are failing to keep kids safe,

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Speaker 1: poor information sharing, legal constraints, chronic underfunding, and a system

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Speaker 1: that places the privacy of educators and the pursuit of

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Speaker 1: profits over child safety, which as some of the revelations

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Speaker 1: made public yesterday, The Victorian government has accepted all twenty

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Speaker 1: two of the review's recommendations, including the ability to puller

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Speaker 1: childcare workers' clearances based on unproven allegations. The review was

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Speaker 1: set up in early July after authorities lifted the lid

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Speaker 1: on Melbourne childcare worker Joshua Dale Brown being charged with

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Speaker 1: more than seventy sexual abuse offenses. He had a valid

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Speaker 1: working with Children check at the time. Child protection organizations

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Speaker 1: have welcomed the recommendations, but say gaps have been exploited

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Speaker 1: by predators for too long. A US judge has denied

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Speaker 1: the Justice Department's bid to unseal records from a grand

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Speaker 1: jury that indicted the late financier Jeffrey Epstein on sex

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Speaker 1: trafficking charges. Manhattan's District Judge Richard Berman's decision came as

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Speaker 1: President Donald Trump tries to squash discontent from his own

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Speaker 1: supporters over his administration's handling of the case. He had

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Speaker 1: promised to make public Epstein related files if he was

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Speaker 1: re elected and accused Democrats of being the ones covering

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Speaker 1: up the truth. But in July, the Justice Department declined

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Speaker 1: to release any more material from its investigation of the case,

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Speaker 1: and said a previously touted Epstein client list did not

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Speaker 1: not exist, angering Trump's supporters. Evidence seen and heard by

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Speaker 1: grand juries, which operate behind closed doors to prevent interference

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Speaker 1: in criminal investigations. Cannot be released without a judge's approval.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Claire. Next, new allegations leveled against Justin Baldoni. It's

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Speaker 2: a Hollywood drama that keeps getting messier. This week, Justin Baldoni,

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Speaker 2: best known for Jane the Virgin and his recent film

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Speaker 2: It Ends with Us, has found himself facing fresh allegations

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Speaker 2: of harassment, this time from his co star Isabella Ferrer.

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Speaker 2: According to new court documents, Ferrer, who plays a younger

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Speaker 2: version of Blake's character in It Ends with Us, has

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Speaker 2: accused Baldoni of harassment because of repeated subpoena attempts in

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Speaker 2: the ongoing legal battle with Lively. Here's what's new. Baldoni's

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Speaker 2: legal team acknowledges yes, they have issued a subpoena for

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Speaker 2: Isabella Ferrer, seeking documents they say she neglected to supply

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Speaker 2: or which weren't requested by Blake Lively's team. They claim

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Speaker 2: they reached out to Farah's lawyer twice but allegedly got

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Speaker 2: no response. They insist it's all standard legal procedure, not bullying.

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Speaker 2: As a reminder, Blake Lively and Justin Baldonia caught up

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Speaker 2: in a messy legal fight tied to their work on

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Speaker 2: it ends with us. Both sides are throwing around accusations

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Speaker 2: and pulling in people like coaster Isabella Farr. It's all

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Speaker 2: gotten pretty complicated with subpoenas, court dates, and plenty of

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes drama. Back to this latest update, Baldonia's

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Speaker 2: team is basically saying Blake Lively's side was actually first

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Speaker 2: to drag Isabella in with the summons, so now they're

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Speaker 2: just trying to even things out. In their words, it's

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Speaker 2: not fair for Lively to get info from Farah, while

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Speaker 2: her team supposedly ignores all of Justin's efforts to get

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Speaker 2: the same kind of info for their own defense. So

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Speaker 2: where are we up to now? Well, Baldonian Lively remain

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Speaker 2: locked in a legal standoff, victual accusations and a growing

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Speaker 2: pool of third party witnesses being pulled in by both sides.

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Speaker 2: The next scheduled court date is March twenty twenty six,

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Speaker 2: so we're still months away from any kind of final verdict.

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Speaker 2: In the meantime, both stars maintain their innocence on all allegations,

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Speaker 2: while the behind the scenes drama shows no signs of

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Speaker 2: slowing down. What's in a name? When William Shakespeare wrote

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Speaker 2: those words for Juliet Capulot to ponder in the late

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Speaker 2: fifteen hundreds. I very much doubt he ever thought that

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Speaker 2: question would carry so much weight with the Internet, or

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Speaker 2: that one day to very normal names would spark fear,

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Speaker 2: loathing and a million means. For years now, the name

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Speaker 2: Karen has been the butt of every joke, a shorthand

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Speaker 2: for entitled, demanding, or downright rude behavior. But as the

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Speaker 2: memetide shifts, some reckon it's time for a new scapegoat.

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Speaker 2: Enter Jessica. Let's do the numbers in Australia right now.

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Speaker 2: The best estimate is there's about seventy thousand people named Karen.

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Speaker 2: That's roughly one in every three hundred and eighty eight Australians,

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Speaker 2: or about zero point two six percent of the country's population.

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Speaker 2: While the actual Karen meme origin is murky, it grew

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Speaker 2: out of viral videos depicting mostly white, middle aged women

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Speaker 2: complaining to managers or demanding rule changes in public. Karen

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Speaker 2: became the avatar for privilege gone wild. But as times change,

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Speaker 2: so does the Internet's favorite villain. Jessica is now in

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Speaker 2: the crosshairs, possibly because it's a next gen ultra popular

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Speaker 2: name among millennials. There's no official count for Jessica's in Australia,

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Speaker 2: but if you worked in an office, been in a

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Speaker 2: group chat, or scrolled socials recently, you know at least

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Speaker 2: a handful plus. It was the most popular girl's name

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Speaker 2: in Australia for sixteen out of eighteen years between nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty four and two thousand and one. Being labeled to

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Speaker 2: Karen or now a Jessica is having a real time impact.

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Speaker 2: While the name Karen reached peak popularity in the sixties,

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Speaker 2: the decline is definitely setting in. In Queensland alone, in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, not a single baby was bestowed the

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Speaker 2: naming honor, and something similar is already happening with the

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Speaker 2: name Jessica. In the mid nineties, roughly one in every

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Speaker 2: thirty girls was named jess I can back that stat

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Speaker 2: by the way, I reckon I had a Jessica in

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Speaker 2: every single class throughout high and primary school. But the

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Speaker 2: name has taken a sharp decline. By twenty eighteen it

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Speaker 2: had completely dropped out of the top one hundred baby names.

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Speaker 2: To set the record straight and find out what it's

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Speaker 2: really like being a Jessica in Australia. Today, we're chatting

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Speaker 2: Tomma MIA's own managing editor, Jess Clark. Jess, how does

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Speaker 2: it feel to have your name piked by your peers

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Speaker 2: as the next sacrifice in line for Karendom.

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Speaker 3: It's both a blessing and a curse. Really, I didn't

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Speaker 3: really think that being publicly crowned the millennial Karen would

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Speaker 3: be a highlight of my very short life so far.

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Speaker 2: But here we are.

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Speaker 3: But I'm not alone because I was born in peak

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Speaker 3: Jessica era nineteen eighty nine, So I've got a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of other Jessicas that can hold my hand and.

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Speaker 2: Walk me through this. I'm glad, like Heavy is the head,

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Speaker 2: but I'm glad that you are supported in this endeavor.

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Speaker 2: In your mind though, like before we get to what

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Speaker 2: a Jessica is in twenty twenty five, in your mind,

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Speaker 2: who is Jessica.

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Speaker 3: The comments on the stories that claimed that Jessica was

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Speaker 3: the new Karen, there was one that really stood out

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Speaker 3: to me, and it said, I've met me and Jessica's.

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Speaker 3: I've met nice Jessica's, but I've never met a normal Jessica.

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Speaker 3: And I think that is who Jessica is she's slightly unhinged,

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Speaker 3: and by slightly I mean incredibly. She's more of a vibe.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's the thing is that millennials don't

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Speaker 3: really Karen, but they do Jessica in the fact that

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Speaker 3: they spiral. They're emotionally flammable, they're emotionally unpredictable. We love

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Speaker 3: a little passive aggressive Instagram story, or we love to

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Speaker 3: ghost the group chat will apologize via a strongly worded

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Speaker 3: email with a smiley face and way too man exclamation points.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's sort of where we take Karen in

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Speaker 2: its next life form is millennial Jessica. So it's not

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Speaker 2: so much about loudly requesting to speak to the manager

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Speaker 2: in the middle of a supermarket. It's more about what

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Speaker 2: that would look like in a twenty twenty five context.

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Speaker 2: And that's kind of what you're getting at there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. I think the Karen, she's a symbol of entitlement.

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Speaker 3: You know, she weaponizes her privilege and she demands control

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Speaker 3: of the situation. But that's not a Jessica. She's not

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Speaker 3: storming the customer service desk. She's probably crying in an

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Speaker 3: aisle somewhere because she can't decide which Kdal to buy,

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Speaker 3: and she's spiraling in the group chat, and she's drafting

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Speaker 3: long texts and she probably alon never said them, but

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Speaker 3: she has a lot of feelings. She probably has similar

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Speaker 3: feelings to a Karen, but she's not weaponizing it against

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Speaker 3: the world.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it's just like the way you're executing is different.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's same energy, different outcome.

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Speaker 2: During the rise of Peak Karen and the Internet really

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Speaker 2: caught on with that, the male equivalent was chalked up

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Speaker 2: to something of a Ken. Is there a male equivalent

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Speaker 2: of a Jessica?

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Speaker 3: Hilariously, my dad is called Ken, so that this is

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Speaker 3: very fitting. But the male equivalent of a millennial Jessica

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Speaker 3: would probably be like a Chad or like a Brad.

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Speaker 3: He will probably text you you up at three o'clock

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Speaker 3: in the morning. He's ghosting his bread crumbing. He's sending

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Speaker 3: you vague text messages. He will probably implode in silence,

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Speaker 3: and his banter is pure chaos.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Jesse, you've just said like a lot of words there.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna need you to give us a definition of

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Speaker 2: what bread crumbing is bread crumbing?

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Speaker 3: Okay, you know, like Hansel and Gretel. They're like, make

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Speaker 3: a little trail. Bread Crumbing is when a man gives

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Speaker 3: you little tidbits of attention. You know, he might like

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Speaker 3: your Instagram story, he might send you a text once

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Speaker 3: every forty eight to seventy two hours. He's just unreliable

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Speaker 3: communication wise.

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Speaker 2: I feel like a Jessica and a Brad who's bread

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Speaker 2: crumbing are not a good mix, and that feels like

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Speaker 2: mutual destruction.

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Speaker 3: No, but they will somehow always find each other. So

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Speaker 3: Jessica and Brad love story. It's one for all time.

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Speaker 2: Jesse, You've written about your experience being crowned the next Karen,

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Speaker 2: So we're on the mom and Mere website or pop

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Speaker 2: a link up so people can read that in the

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Speaker 2: show notes. What was the reaction when you put that

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Speaker 2: out into the world.

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Speaker 3: Look, I'm deeply aware that complaining about my name being

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Speaker 3: the new Karen is an incredibly curen thing to do.

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Speaker 3: But look, I'm also very self aware, and I think

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Speaker 3: it's hilarious and I think we should look on the

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Speaker 3: bright side of life and just have a laugh at ourselves.

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Speaker 3: But the reaction was varied. There were people that were

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Speaker 3: angry and were upset that we're still talking about the

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Speaker 3: fact that Karen is a thing because it is a

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Speaker 3: little bit mean. But I think if we can all

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Speaker 3: just make fun of ourselves sometimes and just be aware

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Speaker 3: of like the chaotic and unhinged part of our personalities,

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Speaker 3: then we're doing okay.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 2: us today. Hey a quick one for you. This week.

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Speaker 2: You can get twenty percent off a Mama Mea membership,

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Speaker 2: and Mama Mea will match it with a twenty percent

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Speaker 2: donation to Rise Up. That's a charity supporting women and

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Speaker 2: families affected by domestic violence. Use the code give Back

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Speaker 2: Quickie or click the link in the show notes to

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Speaker 2: receive the discount. Now make sure you subscribe before Sunday,

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Speaker 2: August twenty four to be part of it. The Quikie

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Speaker 2: is produced by me Taylor Strano, and Clare Murphy, with

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Speaker 2: audio production by Lou Hill.