Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Just shush, just stop
Speaker 2: throwing rocks at these people. They have no choices in
Speaker 2: their situation either. The King was born into his role,
Speaker 2: William was born into his. They're trying to do the
Speaker 2: best they can while Harry throws rocks at the boom
Speaker 2: every angle, all the time.
Speaker 3: Dad, King of England, you had me, You knew exactly
Speaker 3: what you were doing when you had two sons, and
Speaker 3: you owe me protection.
Speaker 1: My dad should look after me.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Momma Mia. Out loud, what women
Speaker 2: are actually talking about? On Monday, the fifth of May.
Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright and we are back from the road
Speaker 2: where we were last week when we went to Perth
Speaker 2: to our first live show and get ready friends who
Speaker 2: were coming to the tour because it was a little chaotic,
Speaker 2: wasn't it exceptionally fun?
Speaker 3: Exceptionally fun? There was a costume change backstage. It had
Speaker 3: us all nearly weighing ourselves and I think I came
Speaker 3: out with it on back front. I think they'll be
Speaker 3: a complained, but wear more than they'd bug.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right, It's true. Yeah, we were, of course
Speaker 1: in Perth. I'm mere Friedman. By the way, I was
Speaker 1: in Perth with my co hosts and the out Loud
Speaker 1: team and it was so awesome to see all the
Speaker 1: out louders. It was chaos, it was We were a
Speaker 1: little rusty, but we ironed out a lot of the
Speaker 1: kinks pretty quickly except for the end.
Speaker 2: There are a few tickets left for the shows in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne.
Speaker 2: Don't at me if they're definitely all gone, but I
Speaker 2: think there are a few left if you want to
Speaker 2: come and see the chaos for yourself.
Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens and I'll say as well. Another
Speaker 3: highlight from Perth was the life size cutouts that were
Speaker 3: twenty five percent to god, that really tickled.
Speaker 1: I think it was life size for you and Holly.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 3: What was weird is that I was abnormally tall compared
Speaker 3: to Holly, who was about half her actual size, and
Speaker 3: you could see out louders getting there and being like,
Speaker 3: they really are shorter than I expected. We are not four.
Speaker 1: Feet Shout out to an out louder city who donated
Speaker 1: her ticket to the show. In Perth to another out
Speaker 1: louder called Megan after she couldn't go. How great are
Speaker 1: out louders. There's a lot going on in the group,
Speaker 1: Tickets being swapped, shared, donated.
Speaker 2: Come come see us on today's show, Down to Business.
Speaker 2: Did something big happen on the weekend? Did it well?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: But do you mean an historic election result that no
Speaker 2: one saw coming? Or do you mean Prince Harry's remarkable
Speaker 2: emotional interview, or do you mean the settling of the
Speaker 2: fallout of the feud between two of the biggest names
Speaker 2: in your kitchen? Whichever one of those, We've got you
Speaker 2: on today's show. But first, a piece of quiet, earth
Speaker 2: shattering scorelous gossip from mere free.
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Beckham the eldest son of David and Victoria Beckham.
Speaker 1: He's twenty six and he was absent from David Beckham's
Speaker 1: fiftieth birthday celebrations, which happened over the weekend. They sort
Speaker 1: of sprawled across different countries. There was various lunches and gatherings,
Speaker 1: but the main party was in London after some earlier
Speaker 1: more intimate family events. Why did Brooklyn miss this? Now
Speaker 1: we know family is very important to the Beckhams, and
Speaker 1: the main reason seems to be the ongoing family tension
Speaker 1: between Brooklyn and his brother Romeo. Romeo's the middle brother.
Speaker 1: Romeo's dating a girl called Kim Turnbull who previously dated
Speaker 1: Brooklyn when he was a teenager, and Brooklyn and his wife,
Speaker 1: Nicola Pelts, prefer to avoid events when Kim is present,
Speaker 1: so it's been rumored for a while that there is
Speaker 1: trouble between the siblings. In the past, it's been rumored
Speaker 1: that there was trouble between Nicola Pelts and Victoria Beckham,
Speaker 1: but they had a few very public shows of strength
Speaker 1: and solidarity.
Speaker 3: I thought that the issue what I was reading was
Speaker 3: that it was Rocco, who's Madonna's child.
Speaker 1: Rocco Richie. He's a side character. I think he might
Speaker 1: have also dated Kim Turnbull, who was Apparently it's been
Speaker 1: reported that Brooklyn and Nicola flew to London to try
Speaker 1: and arrange a private celebration with David. They said, we're
Speaker 1: not going to the main party. We don't want to
Speaker 1: be around Romeo's girlfriend, but we want to see you privately.
Speaker 1: Apparently the family insisted that they attend the main event
Speaker 1: or not see them at all, leading to the couple
Speaker 1: missing the festivities completely. Now, of course you can look
Speaker 1: at Instagram for the real story, and it does seem
Speaker 1: to be there, because Brooklyn and Nicola did not post
Speaker 1: publicly anything about reaching his dad happy Birthday, and the
Speaker 1: Beckhams when they posted some of the gorgeous family photos
Speaker 1: from the night and the festivities, they usually if he's
Speaker 1: not around, will tag Brooklyn and say missing you, Brooklyn.
Speaker 1: No mention of Brooklyn.
Speaker 2: It's really sad because we're talking in a while about
Speaker 2: the royal rift between two famous brothers. But who is
Speaker 2: the real.
Speaker 1: Royalty here for gen X?
Speaker 2: One would argue maybe Posh and becks R indeed, and
Speaker 2: they are such wife guys, those guys like Brooklyn Beckham's
Speaker 2: personality is eighty five percent I love my wife and
Speaker 2: the other fifteen percent is hot sauce.
Speaker 1: So between us two things.
Speaker 2: But it is notable that considering how tight those families
Speaker 2: are like, they are a very tight family. He has
Speaker 2: not posted about his family since Christmas.
Speaker 1: I can't choose who you have children marry, can you, Jesse, No,
Speaker 1: you can't.
Speaker 3: But I did read that in the last eleven family
Speaker 3: gatherings that they've had Brooklyn and Nicola have not attended.
Speaker 3: And my question is why are there's so many family
Speaker 3: gathering eleven love.
Speaker 2: They love a party, they love getting together. This fiftieth
Speaker 2: has had a massive party in London that Tom Cruise
Speaker 2: was there, all these guys and they're in Paris and
Speaker 2: they're doing a big thing in Paris.
Speaker 3: And this was at number four.
Speaker 2: They love a party. When Victoria turned fifty they did
Speaker 2: a similar thing. They love a party, they love a
Speaker 2: family shindig.
Speaker 3: It's David is very much a birthday girly. He's a
Speaker 3: birthday month, massive birthday. He loves a birthday.
Speaker 1: Happy birthday, David.
Speaker 3: And then I also read that Brooklyn did not wish
Speaker 3: Victoria a fifty first happy birthday, and I was like,
Speaker 3: come on, fifty one, I'm sure you turn fifty one
Speaker 3: at one point, I know when it was.
Speaker 1: If it doesn't happen on the graund didn't happen.
Speaker 3: Over the weekend, Australia's election made history. Anthony Albanesi became
Speaker 3: the first Prime minister in two decades to secure a
Speaker 3: second term. The Labor Party saw record lows in polling
Speaker 3: at the start of the year, with Australians struggling with
Speaker 3: things like the cost of living crisis, as well as
Speaker 3: challenges to healthcare and housing. And while many were expecting
Speaker 3: a labor victory, no one predicted a landslide of this magnitude.
Speaker 3: Here is what Alberanesi said during his victory speech today.
Speaker 5: The Australian people have voted for Australian values, for fairness,
Speaker 5: aspiration and opportunity for all. But now that the Australian
Speaker 5: people have made their clear choice, let us all reflect
Speaker 5: on what we have in common. Because no matter who
Speaker 5: you voted for, no matter where you live, no matter
Speaker 5: how how you worship or who you love, whether you
Speaker 5: belong to a culture that has known and cared for
Speaker 5: this great continent for sixty five thousand years, or you
Speaker 5: have chosen our nation as your home and enriched our
Speaker 5: society with your contribution, we are all Australians.
Speaker 3: Look this brings us to the Coalition And while all
Speaker 3: the votes have still not been counted, it looks like
Speaker 3: the Coalition will receive the lowest votes since the Liberal
Speaker 3: Party was formed in nineteen forty four.
Speaker 1: What a great night, not a great navent.
Speaker 3: Peter Dutton lost his seat in Dixon, Queensland after holding
Speaker 3: it for twenty four years. This is what he had
Speaker 3: to say.
Speaker 6: Now, we didn't do well enough during this campaign. That
Speaker 6: much is obvious tonight and I accept full responsibility for that.
Speaker 6: Earlier on I called the Prime Minister to congratulate him
Speaker 6: on his success tonight. It's an historic occasion for the
Speaker 6: Labor Party and we recognize that. Congratulated the Prime Minister
Speaker 6: in which Tea, you and Jody and Nathan all the
Speaker 6: very best. And I said to the Prime Minister that
Speaker 6: his mum would be incredibly proud of his achievement tonight,
Speaker 6: and he should be very proud of what he's achieved.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful, consessions, incredibly gracious.
Speaker 3: Holly. Do you want to just quickly explain what that
Speaker 3: means for people who might have missed it in terms
Speaker 3: of Dutton losing not only the election but losing his seat.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, very often the leader of a big political party
Speaker 2: will have a pretty safe seat. But actually Dutton's seat
Speaker 2: of Dixon in Queensland has never been particularly safe. It's
Speaker 2: always had quite a type margin. However, I don't think
Speaker 2: anybody thought he was going to lose it, apart from
Speaker 2: apparently Albo. They were saying on insiders on the ABC yesterday,
Speaker 2: Samantha Maiden was saying that when Albow was on it
Speaker 2: months ago, as the campaign has been announced, he kind
Speaker 2: of said a little bit off handedly, like keep an
Speaker 2: eye on Dixon, like they obviously thought that it might go,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't being treated seriously in any way by
Speaker 2: the media. And of course, the thing is about a
Speaker 2: leader losing his seat. This means he can't possibly carry
Speaker 2: on as leader because oh he's out of it. He's yeah,
Speaker 2: he's basically no longer the member. And a woman called
Speaker 2: Ali Frantz is now. She has tried to get that
Speaker 2: seat three times. And her speech was also excellent where
Speaker 2: she said that people said it was ungettable, there was
Speaker 2: no way, and she said, yeah nah, those were her words,
Speaker 2: Yeah nah, I'm gonna try.
Speaker 1: She has an extraordinary story. She lost a leg after
Speaker 1: a car accident I think in twenty eleven, and she's
Speaker 1: been a disability advocate since then, and she lost her
Speaker 1: eldest son, Henry last year, and you've got to think
Speaker 1: about what it must have taken for her. She said
Speaker 1: she's thought about him every day in his campaign. It
Speaker 1: was a historic night. The last time that we can
Speaker 1: think about a leader losing his seat was when John
Speaker 1: Howard lost his seat when he was Prime Minister.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what was good about that. We were
Speaker 2: just all agreeing how gracious that speech was, because you
Speaker 2: can't overestimate how devastating this result is for Dotton personally,
Speaker 2: because he you know, everybody is saying that his campaign
Speaker 2: that he led was disastrous and that Australian people generally
Speaker 2: thought that he was unelectable. He's lost his own seat.
Speaker 2: But he also mentioned Ali Frantz's son in his concession speech.
Speaker 2: I messaged you while we were watching that and I
Speaker 2: was saying, it makes me feel lucky to live in
Speaker 2: Australia because however you feel politically, the fact that speech
Speaker 2: was so gracious in that moment, and also that Albert
Speaker 2: did the same because when he made his acceptance speech
Speaker 2: and you know, he's just been handed a win that
Speaker 2: he didn't see coming, and the crowd started to boo
Speaker 2: Peter Dutton when Albo said Dutton's name, and he stopped
Speaker 2: them and he quite sternly chided them.
Speaker 5: No, what we do in Australia is we treat people
Speaker 5: with respect.
Speaker 2: I felt warm and fuzzy about that because I think
Speaker 2: you know, we talk a lot about the lowering of
Speaker 2: the tone of public debate, we talk a lot about
Speaker 2: the division, and I feel like this election result, but
Speaker 2: modeled by those two speeches in particular, was a rejection
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I felt very grateful that we live in a country
Speaker 3: where both leaders in this case gave humble and considered
Speaker 3: and graceful speeches. Like some people have said that the
Speaker 3: Trump factor clarified a lot of Australians on what they
Speaker 3: want and what they don't want, and that they've kind
Speaker 3: of got conflict fatigue. That's something that Alberanize has been
Speaker 3: working against a lot. But to have Dutton be so
Speaker 3: humble in that loss to accept it, which sounds so basic,
Speaker 3: but I think that that was that was really moving.
Speaker 3: We're at a point now where the Liberal Party need
Speaker 3: a new leader, they need an internal review and a
Speaker 3: total party reset. And look, we of course know that
Speaker 3: out louders voted all sorts of ways for all sorts
Speaker 3: of different reasons, and we're not here to shame anyone
Speaker 3: or comment on anyone's vote. But the facts are the facts.
Speaker 3: Mea what happened, because at the.
Speaker 1: Start of the year, the odds were that Dutton was
Speaker 1: going to be the next prime minister. I mean that's
Speaker 1: what the polling was saying. Alboat had some slips. There
Speaker 1: was a sense of despair within the ALP that they
Speaker 1: were just not ready. But then the campaign started because
Speaker 1: no one expected. When Dutton was first elected as leader
Speaker 1: of the opposition after the last election and Scott Morrison left,
Speaker 1: no one really thought that he had a chance. But
Speaker 1: then he surprised people by being quite a good opposition
Speaker 1: leader in terms of having cut through getting a lot
Speaker 1: of support. And what's been interesting is that there's three
Speaker 1: different roles that you have to play as a politician.
Speaker 1: One is being opposition leader, one is campaigning to be
Speaker 1: the prime minister during an active campaign, and the third
Speaker 1: is actually being prime minister. And some people are better
Speaker 1: in opposition than they are as prime minister, like Tony
Speaker 1: Abbott was quite good in opposition, but not what people
Speaker 1: wanted in a leader. And as soon as the campaign started,
Speaker 1: what's come out in the last forty eight hours is
Speaker 1: how prepared the Labor Party was and how ill prepared
Speaker 1: the Liberal Party was, and they had a lot of time.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a surprise that the election was happening. In fact,
Speaker 1: the election was delayed a little bit because of the
Speaker 1: floods and the cyclone in Queensland. But they had no
Speaker 1: economic policy. They made mistakes in the policies that they announced,
Speaker 1: like the you know, all public servants were going to
Speaker 1: have to work from home. That was an own goal
Speaker 1: that they really couldn't recover from because that was positioned
Speaker 1: smartly by the AOP as being anti women, about being
Speaker 1: a threat to the private sector as well. They had
Speaker 1: to then recount that position and they took a long time.
Speaker 1: You know, the idea that the Liberal government or the
Speaker 1: Liberal Party are the more fiscally responsible ones. They didn't
Speaker 1: really have any vision. They didn't really have any policies,
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people said that both
Speaker 1: campaigns were pretty uninspiring. But even just the optics, I
Speaker 1: don't think a lot of people could name many Liberal politicians,
Speaker 1: you know, certainly not many women. There are a couple
Speaker 1: Susan Lay, Jane Hume, but they weren't very high profile.
Speaker 1: And friend of the pod At Mortlock, who started a
Speaker 1: network called Hillmer's Network about trying to get more women
Speaker 1: elected to the Liberal Party. You know, she's been sounding
Speaker 1: the alarm for a really long time.
Speaker 3: It felt like that was a very clear message that
Speaker 3: happened when Morrison was you know, kick the Teals came
Speaker 3: and the Teals came in, and it felt as though
Speaker 3: there are a lot of lessons learnt three years ago
Speaker 3: and all of them were forgotten.
Speaker 2: Well, they just weren't picked up. Yeah, because you know,
Speaker 2: you say that the alarm's been sounding in the Liberal
Speaker 2: Party for a while that they need to modernize and
Speaker 2: they need to diversify in terms of who they are.
Speaker 2: And you know a lot of the Teal candidates would
Speaker 2: have been natural Liberals in a slightly different setting and
Speaker 2: they are smart, professional women. They obviously didn't feel they
Speaker 2: had a place there. What the Labor Party would say, though,
Speaker 2: is they would say that they put quotas in place
Speaker 2: a very long time ago, that the Liberal Party have
Speaker 2: always poo pooed and said quotas are not for us.
Speaker 2: And it takes time to pay that off because you
Speaker 2: have to grow a talent bench and they have to mature
Speaker 2: and come to fruition. And now you know, in Queensland
Speaker 2: they've now got six new female Labor MPs. It's amazing,
Speaker 2: you know, there's parity in that party. So I think
Speaker 2: one of the things that happened is that, because you're
Speaker 2: right here that it was a pretty dull campaign in
Speaker 2: many ways. But I think Albo read the mood, and
Speaker 2: the mood is we don't want more division, we don't
Speaker 2: want more rgbardi, we don't want this kind of you know,
Speaker 2: in the final weeks of the campaign, when we talked
Speaker 2: about it last week, suddenly we're talking about welcome to country.
Speaker 2: And in my electra there were posters around and I'm
Speaker 2: sure my electric wasn't the only one. I live in
Speaker 2: a marginal seat in the regions of New South Wales
Speaker 2: Liberal Party posters that were like going woke is sending
Speaker 2: us broke. They were clearly trying to wedge a culture
Speaker 2: war argument that has been working in America and worked
Speaker 2: in various places. But it feels like Australians were like,
Speaker 2: we're not interested in that. Because one of the things
Speaker 2: I find amazing about really decisive election results, it's just
Speaker 2: that idea that all these different people woke up in
Speaker 2: all these different parts of the country in their living room,
Speaker 2: put their song because I want to go to the
Speaker 2: pold and thought the same thing, and they didn't necessarily think, oh,
Speaker 2: We love these guys. They're doing an amazing job. Like
Speaker 2: you know, there's been a lot of obviously disquiet about
Speaker 2: the cost of living and about all kinds of things,
Speaker 2: and from both sides of politics. You know, there are
Speaker 2: plenty of people who don't think labor have differentiated themselves
Speaker 2: enough on environment, on all kinds of issues like that,
Speaker 2: but enough people just went not not what that guy's selling.
Speaker 2: All over the country in all different Democrats didn't make
Speaker 2: it good enough.
Speaker 1: Neither did Trumpet of Patriots. Clive Palmer's party crashed out again,
Speaker 1: like with all that money and all, so did one nation,
Speaker 1: so did one nation, and so did the Greens. No
Speaker 1: seats for the Greens. Adam Bant, the leader could lose
Speaker 1: his seat. The Teals held looks like they'll lose possibly
Speaker 1: lose one in Zoey Daniel and gain one in another seat.
Speaker 1: So there were some upsets. The good news is that
Speaker 1: it was over by eight.
Speaker 3: Sure it was good for those how quickly it was over,
Speaker 3: And I think I agree with you that Dutton. You know,
Speaker 3: there were a few comments about things like hate media,
Speaker 3: which just echoed some trump isms that I think we
Speaker 3: are so sensitive to.
Speaker 1: So it's very centrist, wasn't it in terms of the
Speaker 1: extreme parties on the left and the right. People rejected
Speaker 1: it for being in the center, which is how Australia is.
Speaker 3: And I wonder how much tariffs and some of Trump's
Speaker 3: policies coming into fruition scared people. But I also think
Speaker 3: that there was some foreshadowing about what would happen because
Speaker 3: of what happened in Canada. It's a real reminder of
Speaker 3: how similar we are to Canada, because not only did
Speaker 3: their Left party won the election, I think only a
Speaker 3: week ago, their opposition leader also lost his.
Speaker 1: Seat unexpectedly he was predicted to win, and then Trump
Speaker 1: and all the chaos and everyone went, oh no.
Speaker 3: It feels like the message from Canada and Australia is
Speaker 3: we are not the United States. And I think Australians
Speaker 3: are relieved.
Speaker 2: After the break the story that Australians were really more
Speaker 2: interested in than the election. We're talking, of course about
Speaker 2: Nagi versus books at times. At the end of last week,
Speaker 2: it felt like the big conversation in the country in
Speaker 2: election time was not Dutton or Albow, but was more
Speaker 2: Nagy or Brookie. If you don't know what I'm talking about,
Speaker 2: and I sincerely doubt it. Here's a very top line
Speaker 2: refresher and what happened between two of the biggest names
Speaker 2: in Australian publishing and food last week. Now, I want
Speaker 2: to acknowledge before we get into this that where this
Speaker 2: has gone since the news broke on about Tuesday went
Speaker 2: the last week is it has turned into a bit
Speaker 2: of a toxic internet pylon. We definitely don't want to
Speaker 2: add to that, but it does touch on several big
Speaker 2: themes that are really worth unpacking. I think Nagi Mahashi
Speaker 2: is probably the reason that I and many writers like
Speaker 2: me have a book deal actually, as in that her
Speaker 2: cookbooks as Recipe to Eats are so successful many people
Speaker 2: say that they keep the Australian publishing industry afloat. She's
Speaker 2: not the only one, of course, Brookies books are also
Speaker 2: very successful, and so are several others. Butts is a phenomena.
Speaker 3: And her last book, which was called Tonight, broke industry records.
Speaker 3: It was the talk of the industry because I don't
Speaker 3: think there had ever been a nonfiction book in Australia
Speaker 3: that did what that.
Speaker 2: Yet and the first one Dinner won the Book of
Speaker 2: the Year Award outside Jamie Oliver, like, it's hard to
Speaker 2: overstate how successful Nagi is and how much people love
Speaker 2: her those who don't cook.
Speaker 1: What is special?
Speaker 3: Puts cinnamon on my vegetables and it's really changed my life.
Speaker 3: I think that is her that told me.
Speaker 2: Today be the thing that's great about Nagi. And I've
Speaker 2: recommended her recipes on this show before. It just works.
Speaker 2: So Nagi is known in the food world for being
Speaker 2: a rigorous, rigorous tester. She absolutely walks her talk. She
Speaker 2: doesn't phone anything in. She also has quite a big
Speaker 2: sort of charitable arm to what she does. She provides
Speaker 2: meals to vulnerable and homeless. But her recipes are just solid.
Speaker 2: Her cookbooks are very sensible. They have rules in them
Speaker 2: and they just work. We make lots of Naggi things
Speaker 2: and they go.
Speaker 1: Off when you say that, like does some recipes just
Speaker 1: not work?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 2: You know, if you're a cookbook buyer, there are cookbooks
Speaker 2: you buy because they look nice and you want them
Speaker 2: on your shelf, but you're never going to open them.
Speaker 1: Right, It'll be like reduce this to yeah, a lengu.
Speaker 3: A level, Like I can't cook and I have Naggie
Speaker 3: because I think that she shee will hold her hand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and on a lengy whose recipes are amazing, but
Speaker 2: you have to go and buy twenty five new things,
Speaker 2: you know to make any meal in that book, whereas
Speaker 2: Naggi's much more what have you got in the cupboard?
Speaker 2: Let's make something on a Wednesday at five? You know,
Speaker 2: she's that person dinner exactly, which is why SU's genius.
Speaker 2: Now Brookie, on the other hand, who's also incredibly popular
Speaker 2: and very popular on social on TikTok in particular, she
Speaker 2: has got more of like a retail arm to what
Speaker 2: she does. Right. So brookiees things dessert, particularly cookies and things,
Speaker 2: and she has shops, she has pop up shops, she
Speaker 2: has a cookie delivery business, and she's huge and like
Speaker 2: viral cookie recipes and things. So different, but saying ballpark right. Anyway,
Speaker 2: what happened last week is that Nagi says that brook
Speaker 2: Bellamy plagiarized two of her recipes, notably caramel slice and backlavar.
Speaker 2: She wrote on social media and on her blog about it,
Speaker 2: and this is what she said. When a multimillion dollar
Speaker 2: cookbook by a social media influencer published by a blue
Speaker 2: chip publisher features numerous recipes that in my opinion are
Speaker 2: plagiarized given the detailed and extensive word for words similarity
Speaker 2: to mine and those of other authors. She said this
Speaker 2: wasn't a post she was publishing lightly, that she'd spent
Speaker 2: many sleepless nights freading over it and many hours writing
Speaker 2: it to get it right. She said, I know the
Speaker 2: easiest and safest path would be to stay silent, and
Speaker 2: there's a risk that legal action will be brought against
Speaker 2: me for speaking out. It's daunting to take on a
Speaker 2: major publisher and an influencer with a huge TikTok for
Speaker 2: what do you think she wanted to achieve.
Speaker 3: It's interesting because I wonder if and I'm sure we'll
Speaker 3: get into this, but copyright law around recipes is slippery,
Speaker 3: so to actually copyright your specific recipe, because there are
Speaker 3: only so many ways to make certain things, it's very
Speaker 3: hard to prove in a court of law. What you
Speaker 3: do own is the story around it. The IP is
Speaker 3: about the context that might exist in the book. But
Speaker 3: I think that Nagi probably knew, and she's clearly had
Speaker 3: this issue because she's consulted with lawyers, and I think
Speaker 3: she felt stuck. And what Nagi had was the capital
Speaker 3: of her audience and the people who love what she does.
Speaker 3: A few things. The fact that Brookie's book was selling really,
Speaker 3: really well and that it had made a significant profit
Speaker 3: was one thing. The second, which is just worth noting,
Speaker 3: is that the Australian Book Industry Awards are coming up
Speaker 3: in Melbourne and they are both nominated in the same
Speaker 3: category for Illustrated Book of the Year, which is often
Speaker 3: recipe books. And so I imagine for Nagi if we take
Speaker 3: and of course these allegations we can't prove or disprove,
Speaker 3: but if she's sitting there in Melbourne and you see
Speaker 3: Brookie Winn and you think that she's plagiarized one of
Speaker 3: your recipes, then that would be a hard thing to
Speaker 3: sit with. But I also think that there's something revealing
Speaker 3: in maybe some of Nagi's language, and she refers to
Speaker 3: Brookie immediately as a social media influencer, and I wonder
Speaker 3: if a tension here is between the social media influencer
Speaker 3: and almost the old guard, which Nagi as someone who,
Speaker 3: as you say, she has built this relationship with her
Speaker 3: community and I'm not undermining Brookie at all, but there
Speaker 3: is this influencer subculture that can sometimes feel like they
Speaker 3: click their fingers and decide to move into a certain
Speaker 3: industry like podcasting. And I don't think that is actually
Speaker 3: Brookie because just from what I know, she owns shops.
Speaker 3: As you were saying, she's been doing this for a
Speaker 3: lot of years. She isn't some influencer who's never tried
Speaker 3: to rest. But I do think that the reason this
Speaker 3: has got so much traction is because it's influencer versus
Speaker 3: olgard Like I think that's how we're positioning it.
Speaker 2: This is what the allegations are.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: Obviously Brookie has come out and said that absolutely isn't true.
Speaker 2: I didn't plagiarize. She's made the point that it's very
Speaker 2: difficult to differentiate classic recipes from each other, and she
Speaker 2: denies any claims of plagiarism. Of course, right, so that's
Speaker 2: what happened.
Speaker 3: And then someone else came out, and then.
Speaker 2: You know, as the way these stories evolve, now there
Speaker 2: are other people saying there are other things in here
Speaker 2: that were plagiarized, and some people are saying, well, Nagi
Speaker 2: sometimes has helped herself to all like this. It's spiraled
Speaker 2: and spiraled. I'd love to hear from youmir about what
Speaker 2: you think about where it's gone because predictably, and it's
Speaker 2: depressing that this is predictable. This is spiraled into a
Speaker 2: massive pile on death threats, particularly for Brookie in the beginning,
Speaker 2: But it seems that Naggi's also copying a lot of blowback.
Speaker 2: Now a horrible place to be at the bottom of
Speaker 2: a social media pylon. It seems we can't look at
Speaker 2: a story like this without making it incredibly personal.
Speaker 1: Well what happens now?
Speaker 2: And Nagi has posted to say, please stop trolling.
Speaker 1: I know that this is just a very very small
Speaker 1: percentage of people online. I know the majority of people
Speaker 1: are good, fun, normal people.
Speaker 4: You know, share your opinions, have heated debates, support Bookie,
Speaker 4: support me, disagree with both of us, think we're pathetic,
Speaker 4: whatever you want, but keep it respectful.
Speaker 2: Do you think that was inevitable? And what happens now?
Speaker 1: Whenever I feel wronged, the first thing I do is
Speaker 1: go to the group chat, any group chat, and say
Speaker 1: what's happened? And I need people to meet me at
Speaker 1: my level of outrage, frustration, indignation, right, and that is
Speaker 1: all I need And then I calm down, But I
Speaker 1: need them to reflect back at me. So I'm like
Speaker 1: it's not fair, and they're like, that's outrageous. How could
Speaker 1: that happen? The problem is when you do that on
Speaker 1: social you always have to say to yourself, what do
Speaker 1: I want the outcome of this to be? And that's
Speaker 1: why I said to you, Jesse, what did Nagi want
Speaker 1: when she did that? She says she didn't want money.
Speaker 1: Did she want an apology, she wanted to wanted an admission?
Speaker 1: Did she want all of those things. My understanding is
Speaker 1: that Brooki's publisher had already said they're going to change
Speaker 1: the recipes in future issues of the book whatever. But
Speaker 1: the problem when you take it to social and I
Speaker 1: think that is what Nagi wanted. She wanted everybody to
Speaker 1: say this isn't fair, how upsetting, and reflect back to her.
Speaker 1: So she felt seen and heard and understood. But the
Speaker 1: problem is when it's on social and out of the
Speaker 1: group chat, and you're famous and it's someone else famous
Speaker 1: and it's in public, you lose control of it immediately,
Speaker 1: and you lose control of what people say about you,
Speaker 1: You lose control about what people say about the other person.
Speaker 1: It takes on the life of its own. And I
Speaker 1: think that when Nagi then came out and was like,
Speaker 1: I don't want people to troll. This is out of control.
Speaker 1: A lot of people understandably said, what did you think
Speaker 1: was going to happen? And I know that some people
Speaker 1: have said Nagi maybe just doesn't understand social media. I
Speaker 1: don't buy that she's a digital native. She's started on
Speaker 1: a blog, she's smart. I think both of these women
Speaker 1: are smart. I think it's really sad that these two
Speaker 1: incredible business women that this has become the narrative. You
Speaker 1: can't turn off that tap once you turn it on.
Speaker 1: That's why you've got to always be so careful, and
Speaker 1: that's why there have been times when the three of
Speaker 1: us have had to check each other and just go,
Speaker 1: don't post, don't post, don't post, don't say it. I
Speaker 1: know it feels unfair that you've been accused of this thing,
Speaker 1: or that this person's done this thing. Don't say anything,
Speaker 1: because you're just going to make it worse, and that,
Speaker 1: to me, that's what's happened.
Speaker 3: I agree with you. I did see that, and I
Speaker 3: thought we are well acquainted enough with the internet to
Speaker 3: know that death threats were where it's going to go,
Speaker 3: protesting outside that shop, boycotting the.
Speaker 1: Business, abusing the employees.
Speaker 3: Her life was going to be Brookie and the fetal
Speaker 3: position was an inevitability.
Speaker 2: But I think that's what Nagi wanted.
Speaker 3: Yes, okay. And on the other hand, to Nagi's point,
Speaker 3: if you are either of these women, your recipes and
Speaker 3: your work is your entire livelihood. Like Nagi has spent
Speaker 3: the last however many years putting together these recipes, and she,
Speaker 3: I think wanted to draw a line in the sand
Speaker 3: and say I want to have a discussion or I
Speaker 3: want to make a point about ip because I've got
Speaker 3: someone who's just come out of nowhere and taken my recipe.
Speaker 3: I think in a AI climate as well, there's an
Speaker 3: enormous sensitivity among writers about having their work use for
Speaker 3: someone else's profit.
Speaker 1: And chefs will often do a cooks or recipe. Writers
Speaker 1: will often do a hat tip to another person who's
Speaker 1: inspired the recipe or whatever. That's very common. I wonder
Speaker 1: how many enterprising bakers made caramel slices instead of democracy
Speaker 1: sausages for the stalls.
Speaker 3: Oh, there's been a lot on Saturdays, a lot of cravings.
Speaker 3: But I think for those of us who don't understand
Speaker 3: cooking and don't understand recipes. The discovery for me has
Speaker 3: been that recipe books are so much about connection and
Speaker 3: so much about trust and how you feel towards that author,
Speaker 3: and that's been in to Blye and I think irretrievably
Speaker 3: undermined in Brookie's work.
Speaker 1: After the break, Prince Harry has broken his silence again.
Speaker 1: The new interview that came out over the weekend. We
Speaker 1: are going to unpack it.
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: Prince Harry gave an interview to the BBC over the
Speaker 1: weekend that has been described as heartbreaking, petulant, misguided, seething
Speaker 1: and a really bad idea by anyone who watched it.
Speaker 1: He sort of seems to veer between wanting to punch
Speaker 1: someone and bursting into tears. It followed his loss in
Speaker 1: a Court of appeal case in the UK where he
Speaker 1: sought to reinstate his full publicly funded police protection after
Speaker 1: it was removed when he and Megan step back from
Speaker 1: royal duties in twenty twenty. Here's some of what he
Speaker 1: had to say.
Speaker 7: It is very clear that from twenty twenty, because I
Speaker 7: was no longer allowed an official role, and because I
Speaker 7: decided to remove myself eventually from the institution, that my
Speaker 7: life got devalued from the highest score to the lowest
Speaker 7: score overnight.
Speaker 2: And how does that make you feel?
Speaker 1: Given you have expressed numerous times that you do not
Speaker 1: want history to repeat itself.
Speaker 7: I don't want history to repeat itself. I think there's
Speaker 7: a lot of other people out there, the majority, they
Speaker 7: also don't want history repeat itself. Through the disclosure process,
Speaker 7: I've discovered that some people want history to repeat itself,
Speaker 7: which is pretty dark. I would love reconciliation with my family.
Speaker 7: You know, there's no point in continuing to fight anymore.
Speaker 7: As I said, life is precious. I don't know how
Speaker 7: much longer my father has. You know, he won't speak
Speaker 7: to me because of this security stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh that is so dark. He's, of course, referring to Diana.
Speaker 1: His mother refused her royal security protection because she thought
Speaker 1: that they were spying on her, and that ended obviously tragically.
Speaker 1: The reaction was very swift after the interview, the British
Speaker 1: public overwhelmingly think Harry and Meghan should lose their role titles,
Speaker 1: and Buckingham Palace issued a very blunt statement. They said,
Speaker 1: all of these issues have been examined repeatedly and meticulously
Speaker 1: by the courts, with the same conclusion reached on each occasion.
Speaker 3: I don't get it. I don't get why people are
Speaker 3: so angry.
Speaker 2: Falling off my chair with irritation Harry. One of my
Speaker 2: Roman empires is why Meghan cops all the abuse when
Speaker 2: Harry is just the most entire I'm just going to
Speaker 2: say it, He's just the most entitled winger in public life.
Speaker 2: Like I read a whole book about how hard done
Speaker 2: by he is. It's a very good book. I encourage
Speaker 2: you all to read it. But he just has this
Speaker 2: entire inability to be able to see how unbelievably privileged
Speaker 2: he is, and how every time he puts himself in
Speaker 2: a victim sy over and over and over again. How
Speaker 2: can you sit there and basically say, which is what
Speaker 2: he just did? That my dad doesn't really care if
Speaker 2: I die or if his grandchildren die. He doesn't really care,
Speaker 2: just wants to win. And then in the next breath
Speaker 2: say I'd love a reconciliation. I don't know how much
Speaker 2: time he's got left. It's like you want a reconciliation
Speaker 2: with your family. When you're going on the record on
Speaker 2: the BBC and basically saying that I don't care whether
Speaker 2: or not I do.
Speaker 1: I'm saying it was an establishment stitut that's insane.
Speaker 3: I okay, I did not watch it. I've watched a
Speaker 3: few clips. But I think that the reason we find
Speaker 3: this difficult to watch and the outcry by a lot
Speaker 3: of people is because we're not watching a grown man.
Speaker 3: We're watching a frightened little boy.
Speaker 2: Yes, but that's his problem. He's got a lot of therapy,
Speaker 2: is it.
Speaker 3: Is it a problem that he directly inherited from the
Speaker 3: man who is denying him protection. Like, I think that
Speaker 3: he comes cross as well. I was gonna say paranoid,
Speaker 3: but I think he might have a point.
Speaker 2: He's not paranoid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that he's right in being terrified about
Speaker 3: his own security.
Speaker 2: But this is this is a point to prove situation right,
Speaker 2: because actually the way things stand is that it's a
Speaker 2: case by case basis on whether or not he will
Speaker 2: get tax payer funded security. Now to be clear on this.
Speaker 2: If people are wondering what the argument's about, Let's say
Speaker 2: that Taylor Swift goes to the UK or anywhere in
Speaker 2: the world, right, she pays for her own security, except
Speaker 2: and Harry brought this up in court, actually that when
Speaker 2: she came to the UK most recently for Eras, she
Speaker 2: did get a little bit of help from the government.
Speaker 2: She did get a bit of like police escort to
Speaker 2: venues and things like that. But in general, high profile,
Speaker 2: rich and famous people pay for their own security. They
Speaker 2: do not expect the governments of the land to do that. Now,
Speaker 2: Harry's point is he's not just rich and famous person,
Speaker 2: he's a royal. He chose not to be a royal.
Speaker 2: He chose to go and make his own money and
Speaker 2: make his fortune. And I'm cheering him on in that because,
Speaker 2: as I've been saying to me last few weeks, one
Speaker 2: thing I learned from all the Megan videos I'm watching
Speaker 2: at the moment is she seems so happy. They built
Speaker 2: a beautiful life, a wonderful life, and they are coining
Speaker 2: it in. He is making handover fist millions of dollars
Speaker 2: here and there. His book is the highest selling non
Speaker 2: fiction book of all time? Why on earth should he
Speaker 2: when he goes to England, not on royal duties, but because,
Speaker 2: as he said, I want to visit my friends. Why
Speaker 2: on earth should taxpayers pay for him?
Speaker 1: Well, the reason is, and he says, when you've got
Speaker 1: official government security, they can have guns, they've got access
Speaker 1: to information and intelligence and I five and all of
Speaker 1: the secret stuff. When you've got private security, they can't
Speaker 1: carry weapons in the UK and they don't have all
Speaker 1: of that intel. The part that I think he's got
Speaker 1: a point about is that he was born as the
Speaker 1: son of the king. And what's interesting to me is
Speaker 1: he never says that, but he implies it. He basically says,
Speaker 1: I was born into this. So the fact that he's
Speaker 1: not doing royal duties anymore and they've moved to the US,
Speaker 1: he's still the son of the king and that can't change.
Speaker 1: And that wasn't something that he chose.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he never chose that he was born into it
Speaker 3: and that will follow him until the day that he dies.
Speaker 3: And he says that him and his family have been
Speaker 3: subjected to well documented neo Nazi and extremist threats, including
Speaker 3: from al Qaeda, and you know, people talk about his
Speaker 3: privilege and not acknowledging his privilege. His mother was killed,
Speaker 3: like his mother died in a way that was very,
Speaker 3: very traumatic for him, and I think that that's something.
Speaker 1: Because of private security, because there was a drunk driver,
Speaker 1: because they didn't know what they would do.
Speaker 3: I think that the emotions. This is a man who
Speaker 3: has just lost a very important court case that clearly
Speaker 3: mattered a lot to him. He's angry, he feels aggrieved,
Speaker 3: he wants justice, and I can appreciate and have empathy
Speaker 3: for all of those feelings alongside wanting reconciliation. He's right
Speaker 3: that one day, of course, King Charles is going to
Speaker 3: die and they're not going to be able to repair
Speaker 3: this broken relationship. But in wanting justice and in speaking out,
Speaker 3: that's obviously it's causing great.
Speaker 2: There is no way, and he says it in this interview.
Speaker 2: He says, they're mad with me because I wrote a book. Yes,
Speaker 2: they are mad with you because he wrote a book,
Speaker 2: but for many other reasons too. How many ways do
Speaker 2: you reject your family and criticize your family and accuse
Speaker 2: them of some of the worst things you could accuse
Speaker 2: a person of not loving their son, not protecting their son,
Speaker 2: throwing you under the bus, doing all these things that
Speaker 2: obviously we don't hear the other side of this story
Speaker 2: because they haven't written their books about it, which that's
Speaker 2: not what royals do. Yeah, but now I'm not a royalist,
Speaker 2: let's be clear. It's not that I'm like, oh, he's
Speaker 2: not behaving like a royal. I just think it is
Speaker 2: unbelievably misguided to just constantly be winging and winging and
Speaker 2: winging about this when he could pay for the best
Speaker 2: private security in the world, and he could also have
Speaker 2: the royal security when he comes on royal duties.
Speaker 1: Not when he goes there. But I mean, his argument
Speaker 1: also is that he's given thirty five years of service,
Speaker 1: including two tools of duty. Now the two tools of
Speaker 1: duty is different thing. I mean, he is a serviceman,
Speaker 1: he went to Afghanistan, but that doesn't entitle you to
Speaker 1: secure to security rights who don't have no exactly veterans don't.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people have said, well, thirty five
Speaker 1: years of what living in palaces and having a very
Speaker 1: indulged life and not having to do that much to
Speaker 1: earn it. But what I see when I watch that,
Speaker 1: it's really typical of some people that I say online
Speaker 1: who claim to be victims and then they do things
Speaker 1: that ensures that they will be attacked and that their
Speaker 1: victim status feels more justified, you know, so that they
Speaker 1: almost like constantly retraumatize himself. So the story he tells
Speaker 1: himself is that his family have rejected him, and he's
Speaker 1: the spare. Literally he's the spare. His brother's going to
Speaker 1: be the king, his dad's already the king, and they
Speaker 1: don't care about him. And then he keeps doing these things,
Speaker 1: like he said, I wanted to keep serving, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: let me. He sounds very childish in the way that
Speaker 1: he's My old therapy would have said, how old do
Speaker 1: you feel right now?
Speaker 4: Pet?
Speaker 1: Yes, But he sounds like a little child going it's
Speaker 1: not fair. Daddy doesn't love me as much as he
Speaker 1: loves William.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what he sounds like. And yet he's made
Speaker 2: a whole documentary series about his mental health. You know,
Speaker 2: we've read about the amount of therapy he's doing and
Speaker 2: how happy he is doing what he's doing. Right now,
Speaker 2: it's like, just shush, just stop throwing rocks at these
Speaker 2: people who have they have no choices in their situation.
Speaker 2: Either the King was born into his role William was
Speaker 2: born into his. They're trying to do the best they
Speaker 2: can while Harry throws rocks at them from every angle
Speaker 2: all the time. Of course, I don't think that he's
Speaker 2: overstating the danger to your point, Jesse, I don't think
Speaker 2: that like he absolutely would be a very high risk
Speaker 2: out in the world. But I just think that the
Speaker 2: idea that the public should pay for it, even though
Speaker 2: I no longer work in a public role, is just
Speaker 2: intensely miscarded.
Speaker 3: I reckon that his anger is saying, Dad, King of England,
Speaker 3: you had me, you knew exactly what you were doing
Speaker 3: when you had two sons, and you owe me protection.
Speaker 3: My dad should look after me. I think that's what
Speaker 3: he's saying.
Speaker 2: We will be arguing about Prince Harry out louders off
Speaker 2: Mike for some time today. I can feel it in
Speaker 2: my waters. Anyway. A massive thank you for being here
Speaker 2: with us on this Monday. We love having you with us.
Speaker 2: A massive thanks to to our fabulous team for putting
Speaker 2: the show together.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having us in Perth. Perth, Yes, and.
Speaker 3: We will see you soon Brisbane.
Speaker 1: Why why shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening.
Speaker 1: If you love the show and want to support us
Speaker 1: as well, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best
Speaker 1: way to do so. There is a link in the
Speaker 1: episode description