1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:22,582 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Just shush, just stop 4 00:00:22,782 --> 00:00:25,821 Speaker 2: throwing rocks at these people. They have no choices in 5 00:00:25,862 --> 00:00:28,022 Speaker 2: their situation either. The King was born into his role, 6 00:00:28,062 --> 00:00:30,222 Speaker 2: William was born into his. They're trying to do the 7 00:00:30,222 --> 00:00:32,462 Speaker 2: best they can while Harry throws rocks at the boom 8 00:00:32,622 --> 00:00:34,262 Speaker 2: every angle, all the time. 9 00:00:34,462 --> 00:00:38,781 Speaker 3: Dad, King of England, you had me, You knew exactly 10 00:00:38,902 --> 00:00:41,302 Speaker 3: what you were doing when you had two sons, and 11 00:00:40,862 --> 00:00:42,622 Speaker 3: you owe me protection. 12 00:00:42,742 --> 00:00:43,902 Speaker 1: My dad should look after me. 13 00:00:47,582 --> 00:00:50,742 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Momma Mia. Out loud, what women 14 00:00:50,782 --> 00:00:53,582 Speaker 2: are actually talking about? On Monday, the fifth of May. 15 00:00:53,902 --> 00:00:56,782 Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright and we are back from the road 16 00:00:57,262 --> 00:00:58,982 Speaker 2: where we were last week when we went to Perth 17 00:00:59,022 --> 00:01:01,742 Speaker 2: to our first live show and get ready friends who 18 00:01:01,742 --> 00:01:04,622 Speaker 2: were coming to the tour because it was a little chaotic, 19 00:01:04,742 --> 00:01:06,342 Speaker 2: wasn't it exceptionally fun? 20 00:01:06,462 --> 00:01:09,942 Speaker 3: Exceptionally fun? There was a costume change backstage. It had 21 00:01:10,021 --> 00:01:12,902 Speaker 3: us all nearly weighing ourselves and I think I came 22 00:01:12,902 --> 00:01:14,622 Speaker 3: out with it on back front. I think they'll be 23 00:01:14,662 --> 00:01:16,942 Speaker 3: a complained, but wear more than they'd bug. 24 00:01:16,862 --> 00:01:20,382 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right, It's true. Yeah, we were, of course 25 00:01:20,382 --> 00:01:22,622 Speaker 1: in Perth. I'm mere Friedman. By the way, I was 26 00:01:22,662 --> 00:01:25,301 Speaker 1: in Perth with my co hosts and the out Loud 27 00:01:25,342 --> 00:01:28,542 Speaker 1: team and it was so awesome to see all the 28 00:01:28,542 --> 00:01:31,982 Speaker 1: out louders. It was chaos, it was We were a 29 00:01:32,022 --> 00:01:35,142 Speaker 1: little rusty, but we ironed out a lot of the 30 00:01:35,222 --> 00:01:37,782 Speaker 1: kinks pretty quickly except for the end. 31 00:01:38,302 --> 00:01:43,582 Speaker 2: There are a few tickets left for the shows in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne. 32 00:01:43,582 --> 00:01:45,622 Speaker 2: Don't at me if they're definitely all gone, but I 33 00:01:45,622 --> 00:01:47,142 Speaker 2: think there are a few left if you want to 34 00:01:47,142 --> 00:01:48,422 Speaker 2: come and see the chaos for yourself. 35 00:01:48,462 --> 00:01:50,382 Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens and I'll say as well. Another 36 00:01:50,462 --> 00:01:52,742 Speaker 3: highlight from Perth was the life size cutouts that were 37 00:01:52,742 --> 00:01:55,982 Speaker 3: twenty five percent to god, that really tickled. 38 00:01:56,142 --> 00:01:58,062 Speaker 1: I think it was life size for you and Holly. 39 00:01:58,422 --> 00:01:58,462 Speaker 4: No. 40 00:01:58,582 --> 00:02:01,662 Speaker 3: What was weird is that I was abnormally tall compared 41 00:02:01,662 --> 00:02:04,382 Speaker 3: to Holly, who was about half her actual size, and 42 00:02:04,382 --> 00:02:05,942 Speaker 3: you could see out louders getting there and being like, 43 00:02:05,982 --> 00:02:09,382 Speaker 3: they really are shorter than I expected. We are not four. 44 00:02:09,222 --> 00:02:12,902 Speaker 1: Feet Shout out to an out louder city who donated 45 00:02:12,942 --> 00:02:14,942 Speaker 1: her ticket to the show. In Perth to another out 46 00:02:14,982 --> 00:02:18,262 Speaker 1: louder called Megan after she couldn't go. How great are 47 00:02:18,262 --> 00:02:19,982 Speaker 1: out louders. There's a lot going on in the group, 48 00:02:20,262 --> 00:02:23,182 Speaker 1: Tickets being swapped, shared, donated. 49 00:02:23,462 --> 00:02:26,621 Speaker 2: Come come see us on today's show, Down to Business. 50 00:02:26,662 --> 00:02:30,302 Speaker 2: Did something big happen on the weekend? Did it well? 51 00:02:30,382 --> 00:02:30,622 Speaker 4: Yes? 52 00:02:30,702 --> 00:02:33,782 Speaker 2: But do you mean an historic election result that no 53 00:02:33,822 --> 00:02:37,462 Speaker 2: one saw coming? Or do you mean Prince Harry's remarkable 54 00:02:37,582 --> 00:02:41,022 Speaker 2: emotional interview, or do you mean the settling of the 55 00:02:41,062 --> 00:02:43,702 Speaker 2: fallout of the feud between two of the biggest names 56 00:02:43,702 --> 00:02:46,622 Speaker 2: in your kitchen? Whichever one of those, We've got you 57 00:02:46,782 --> 00:02:50,182 Speaker 2: on today's show. But first, a piece of quiet, earth 58 00:02:50,262 --> 00:02:52,662 Speaker 2: shattering scorelous gossip from mere free. 59 00:02:52,862 --> 00:02:56,942 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Beckham the eldest son of David and Victoria Beckham. 60 00:02:57,662 --> 00:03:01,702 Speaker 1: He's twenty six and he was absent from David Beckham's 61 00:03:01,702 --> 00:03:05,901 Speaker 1: fiftieth birthday celebrations, which happened over the weekend. They sort 62 00:03:05,942 --> 00:03:10,702 Speaker 1: of sprawled across different countries. There was various lunches and gatherings, 63 00:03:10,742 --> 00:03:14,262 Speaker 1: but the main party was in London after some earlier 64 00:03:14,502 --> 00:03:18,822 Speaker 1: more intimate family events. Why did Brooklyn miss this? Now 65 00:03:18,862 --> 00:03:21,062 Speaker 1: we know family is very important to the Beckhams, and 66 00:03:21,142 --> 00:03:24,382 Speaker 1: the main reason seems to be the ongoing family tension 67 00:03:25,022 --> 00:03:29,862 Speaker 1: between Brooklyn and his brother Romeo. Romeo's the middle brother. 68 00:03:30,662 --> 00:03:34,302 Speaker 1: Romeo's dating a girl called Kim Turnbull who previously dated 69 00:03:34,342 --> 00:03:37,662 Speaker 1: Brooklyn when he was a teenager, and Brooklyn and his wife, 70 00:03:37,782 --> 00:03:41,302 Speaker 1: Nicola Pelts, prefer to avoid events when Kim is present, 71 00:03:41,382 --> 00:03:43,142 Speaker 1: so it's been rumored for a while that there is 72 00:03:43,262 --> 00:03:47,102 Speaker 1: trouble between the siblings. In the past, it's been rumored 73 00:03:47,142 --> 00:03:49,982 Speaker 1: that there was trouble between Nicola Pelts and Victoria Beckham, 74 00:03:49,982 --> 00:03:54,102 Speaker 1: but they had a few very public shows of strength 75 00:03:54,142 --> 00:03:55,102 Speaker 1: and solidarity. 76 00:03:55,502 --> 00:03:58,742 Speaker 3: I thought that the issue what I was reading was 77 00:03:58,782 --> 00:04:02,062 Speaker 3: that it was Rocco, who's Madonna's child. 78 00:04:01,942 --> 00:04:04,622 Speaker 1: Rocco Richie. He's a side character. I think he might 79 00:04:04,622 --> 00:04:09,142 Speaker 1: have also dated Kim Turnbull, who was Apparently it's been 80 00:04:09,182 --> 00:04:13,462 Speaker 1: reported that Brooklyn and Nicola flew to London to try 81 00:04:13,502 --> 00:04:15,742 Speaker 1: and arrange a private celebration with David. They said, we're 82 00:04:15,742 --> 00:04:17,421 Speaker 1: not going to the main party. We don't want to 83 00:04:17,421 --> 00:04:21,302 Speaker 1: be around Romeo's girlfriend, but we want to see you privately. 84 00:04:21,861 --> 00:04:24,541 Speaker 1: Apparently the family insisted that they attend the main event 85 00:04:25,022 --> 00:04:27,621 Speaker 1: or not see them at all, leading to the couple 86 00:04:27,662 --> 00:04:30,301 Speaker 1: missing the festivities completely. Now, of course you can look 87 00:04:30,342 --> 00:04:32,782 Speaker 1: at Instagram for the real story, and it does seem 88 00:04:32,821 --> 00:04:35,101 Speaker 1: to be there, because Brooklyn and Nicola did not post 89 00:04:35,181 --> 00:04:38,741 Speaker 1: publicly anything about reaching his dad happy Birthday, and the 90 00:04:38,782 --> 00:04:41,662 Speaker 1: Beckhams when they posted some of the gorgeous family photos 91 00:04:41,702 --> 00:04:44,342 Speaker 1: from the night and the festivities, they usually if he's 92 00:04:44,342 --> 00:04:47,181 Speaker 1: not around, will tag Brooklyn and say missing you, Brooklyn. 93 00:04:47,342 --> 00:04:48,342 Speaker 1: No mention of Brooklyn. 94 00:04:48,421 --> 00:04:51,661 Speaker 2: It's really sad because we're talking in a while about 95 00:04:51,662 --> 00:04:54,741 Speaker 2: the royal rift between two famous brothers. But who is 96 00:04:54,741 --> 00:04:55,261 Speaker 2: the real. 97 00:04:55,142 --> 00:04:56,701 Speaker 1: Royalty here for gen X? 98 00:04:56,741 --> 00:04:59,941 Speaker 2: One would argue maybe Posh and becks R indeed, and 99 00:04:59,981 --> 00:05:03,541 Speaker 2: they are such wife guys, those guys like Brooklyn Beckham's 100 00:05:03,541 --> 00:05:06,222 Speaker 2: personality is eighty five percent I love my wife and 101 00:05:06,381 --> 00:05:08,421 Speaker 2: the other fifteen percent is hot sauce. 102 00:05:08,662 --> 00:05:10,221 Speaker 1: So between us two things. 103 00:05:10,541 --> 00:05:13,981 Speaker 2: But it is notable that considering how tight those families 104 00:05:13,981 --> 00:05:17,382 Speaker 2: are like, they are a very tight family. He has 105 00:05:17,462 --> 00:05:19,741 Speaker 2: not posted about his family since Christmas. 106 00:05:20,061 --> 00:05:23,101 Speaker 1: I can't choose who you have children marry, can you, Jesse, No, 107 00:05:23,222 --> 00:05:23,701 Speaker 1: you can't. 108 00:05:24,181 --> 00:05:27,101 Speaker 3: But I did read that in the last eleven family 109 00:05:27,142 --> 00:05:30,782 Speaker 3: gatherings that they've had Brooklyn and Nicola have not attended. 110 00:05:30,861 --> 00:05:33,541 Speaker 3: And my question is why are there's so many family 111 00:05:33,582 --> 00:05:35,461 Speaker 3: gathering eleven love. 112 00:05:35,702 --> 00:05:39,062 Speaker 2: They love a party, they love getting together. This fiftieth 113 00:05:39,301 --> 00:05:42,301 Speaker 2: has had a massive party in London that Tom Cruise 114 00:05:42,342 --> 00:05:43,902 Speaker 2: was there, all these guys and they're in Paris and 115 00:05:43,902 --> 00:05:45,181 Speaker 2: they're doing a big thing in Paris. 116 00:05:45,181 --> 00:05:46,382 Speaker 3: And this was at number four. 117 00:05:47,222 --> 00:05:49,382 Speaker 2: They love a party. When Victoria turned fifty they did 118 00:05:49,421 --> 00:05:51,461 Speaker 2: a similar thing. They love a party, they love a 119 00:05:51,501 --> 00:05:52,301 Speaker 2: family shindig. 120 00:05:52,741 --> 00:05:56,421 Speaker 3: It's David is very much a birthday girly. He's a 121 00:05:56,462 --> 00:05:59,221 Speaker 3: birthday month, massive birthday. He loves a birthday. 122 00:05:59,262 --> 00:06:00,462 Speaker 1: Happy birthday, David. 123 00:06:00,541 --> 00:06:03,101 Speaker 3: And then I also read that Brooklyn did not wish 124 00:06:03,262 --> 00:06:05,782 Speaker 3: Victoria a fifty first happy birthday, and I was like, 125 00:06:06,061 --> 00:06:08,662 Speaker 3: come on, fifty one, I'm sure you turn fifty one 126 00:06:08,702 --> 00:06:10,262 Speaker 3: at one point, I know when it was. 127 00:06:10,342 --> 00:06:12,222 Speaker 1: If it doesn't happen on the graund didn't happen. 128 00:06:12,902 --> 00:06:18,021 Speaker 3: Over the weekend, Australia's election made history. Anthony Albanesi became 129 00:06:18,061 --> 00:06:20,741 Speaker 3: the first Prime minister in two decades to secure a 130 00:06:20,741 --> 00:06:24,981 Speaker 3: second term. The Labor Party saw record lows in polling 131 00:06:25,022 --> 00:06:27,821 Speaker 3: at the start of the year, with Australians struggling with 132 00:06:27,902 --> 00:06:29,902 Speaker 3: things like the cost of living crisis, as well as 133 00:06:29,981 --> 00:06:34,582 Speaker 3: challenges to healthcare and housing. And while many were expecting 134 00:06:34,621 --> 00:06:39,422 Speaker 3: a labor victory, no one predicted a landslide of this magnitude. 135 00:06:39,662 --> 00:06:43,981 Speaker 3: Here is what Alberanesi said during his victory speech today. 136 00:06:43,702 --> 00:06:52,741 Speaker 5: The Australian people have voted for Australian values, for fairness, 137 00:06:52,902 --> 00:06:58,022 Speaker 5: aspiration and opportunity for all. But now that the Australian 138 00:06:58,061 --> 00:07:01,942 Speaker 5: people have made their clear choice, let us all reflect 139 00:07:02,381 --> 00:07:05,861 Speaker 5: on what we have in common. Because no matter who 140 00:07:06,101 --> 00:07:09,421 Speaker 5: you voted for, no matter where you live, no matter 141 00:07:09,421 --> 00:07:13,182 Speaker 5: how how you worship or who you love, whether you 142 00:07:13,262 --> 00:07:15,941 Speaker 5: belong to a culture that has known and cared for 143 00:07:16,022 --> 00:07:21,342 Speaker 5: this great continent for sixty five thousand years, or you 144 00:07:21,462 --> 00:07:26,141 Speaker 5: have chosen our nation as your home and enriched our 145 00:07:26,262 --> 00:07:31,862 Speaker 5: society with your contribution, we are all Australians. 146 00:07:32,702 --> 00:07:35,062 Speaker 3: Look this brings us to the Coalition And while all 147 00:07:35,062 --> 00:07:37,502 Speaker 3: the votes have still not been counted, it looks like 148 00:07:37,582 --> 00:07:41,302 Speaker 3: the Coalition will receive the lowest votes since the Liberal 149 00:07:41,342 --> 00:07:43,261 Speaker 3: Party was formed in nineteen forty four. 150 00:07:43,542 --> 00:07:45,101 Speaker 1: What a great night, not a great navent. 151 00:07:45,622 --> 00:07:49,302 Speaker 3: Peter Dutton lost his seat in Dixon, Queensland after holding 152 00:07:49,302 --> 00:07:51,622 Speaker 3: it for twenty four years. This is what he had 153 00:07:51,622 --> 00:07:51,982 Speaker 3: to say. 154 00:07:52,381 --> 00:07:54,901 Speaker 6: Now, we didn't do well enough during this campaign. That 155 00:07:55,022 --> 00:07:58,381 Speaker 6: much is obvious tonight and I accept full responsibility for that. 156 00:07:59,302 --> 00:08:02,941 Speaker 6: Earlier on I called the Prime Minister to congratulate him 157 00:08:03,022 --> 00:08:06,862 Speaker 6: on his success tonight. It's an historic occasion for the 158 00:08:06,941 --> 00:08:10,941 Speaker 6: Labor Party and we recognize that. Congratulated the Prime Minister 159 00:08:10,982 --> 00:08:13,381 Speaker 6: in which Tea, you and Jody and Nathan all the 160 00:08:13,462 --> 00:08:15,462 Speaker 6: very best. And I said to the Prime Minister that 161 00:08:15,502 --> 00:08:18,582 Speaker 6: his mum would be incredibly proud of his achievement tonight, 162 00:08:18,622 --> 00:08:20,462 Speaker 6: and he should be very proud of what he's achieved. 163 00:08:20,662 --> 00:08:23,942 Speaker 1: That's beautiful, consessions, incredibly gracious. 164 00:08:24,022 --> 00:08:27,422 Speaker 3: Holly. Do you want to just quickly explain what that 165 00:08:27,502 --> 00:08:29,302 Speaker 3: means for people who might have missed it in terms 166 00:08:29,302 --> 00:08:31,782 Speaker 3: of Dutton losing not only the election but losing his seat. 167 00:08:31,821 --> 00:08:32,102 Speaker 1: Yeah. 168 00:08:32,142 --> 00:08:35,342 Speaker 2: So, very often the leader of a big political party 169 00:08:35,342 --> 00:08:38,102 Speaker 2: will have a pretty safe seat. But actually Dutton's seat 170 00:08:38,142 --> 00:08:40,502 Speaker 2: of Dixon in Queensland has never been particularly safe. It's 171 00:08:40,502 --> 00:08:43,782 Speaker 2: always had quite a type margin. However, I don't think 172 00:08:43,782 --> 00:08:45,822 Speaker 2: anybody thought he was going to lose it, apart from 173 00:08:45,862 --> 00:08:49,662 Speaker 2: apparently Albo. They were saying on insiders on the ABC yesterday, 174 00:08:49,742 --> 00:08:52,062 Speaker 2: Samantha Maiden was saying that when Albow was on it 175 00:08:52,662 --> 00:08:55,302 Speaker 2: months ago, as the campaign has been announced, he kind 176 00:08:55,342 --> 00:08:57,382 Speaker 2: of said a little bit off handedly, like keep an 177 00:08:57,382 --> 00:09:00,502 Speaker 2: eye on Dixon, like they obviously thought that it might go, 178 00:09:00,622 --> 00:09:03,502 Speaker 2: but it wasn't being treated seriously in any way by 179 00:09:03,542 --> 00:09:05,622 Speaker 2: the media. And of course, the thing is about a 180 00:09:05,702 --> 00:09:08,462 Speaker 2: leader losing his seat. This means he can't possibly carry 181 00:09:08,462 --> 00:09:11,982 Speaker 2: on as leader because oh he's out of it. He's yeah, 182 00:09:12,022 --> 00:09:14,902 Speaker 2: he's basically no longer the member. And a woman called 183 00:09:14,942 --> 00:09:17,262 Speaker 2: Ali Frantz is now. She has tried to get that 184 00:09:17,342 --> 00:09:21,342 Speaker 2: seat three times. And her speech was also excellent where 185 00:09:21,382 --> 00:09:23,422 Speaker 2: she said that people said it was ungettable, there was 186 00:09:23,462 --> 00:09:27,102 Speaker 2: no way, and she said, yeah nah, those were her words, 187 00:09:27,462 --> 00:09:28,582 Speaker 2: Yeah nah, I'm gonna try. 188 00:09:28,702 --> 00:09:31,102 Speaker 1: She has an extraordinary story. She lost a leg after 189 00:09:31,142 --> 00:09:34,022 Speaker 1: a car accident I think in twenty eleven, and she's 190 00:09:34,182 --> 00:09:37,542 Speaker 1: been a disability advocate since then, and she lost her 191 00:09:37,582 --> 00:09:42,382 Speaker 1: eldest son, Henry last year, and you've got to think 192 00:09:42,422 --> 00:09:44,822 Speaker 1: about what it must have taken for her. She said 193 00:09:45,342 --> 00:09:48,182 Speaker 1: she's thought about him every day in his campaign. It 194 00:09:48,342 --> 00:09:50,342 Speaker 1: was a historic night. The last time that we can 195 00:09:50,382 --> 00:09:54,942 Speaker 1: think about a leader losing his seat was when John 196 00:09:54,982 --> 00:09:56,862 Speaker 1: Howard lost his seat when he was Prime Minister. 197 00:09:57,142 --> 00:09:59,302 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what was good about that. We were 198 00:09:59,342 --> 00:10:03,262 Speaker 2: just all agreeing how gracious that speech was, because you 199 00:10:03,302 --> 00:10:07,462 Speaker 2: can't overestimate how devastating this result is for Dotton personally, 200 00:10:07,942 --> 00:10:10,982 Speaker 2: because he you know, everybody is saying that his campaign 201 00:10:11,062 --> 00:10:14,782 Speaker 2: that he led was disastrous and that Australian people generally 202 00:10:14,782 --> 00:10:17,582 Speaker 2: thought that he was unelectable. He's lost his own seat. 203 00:10:17,982 --> 00:10:23,102 Speaker 2: But he also mentioned Ali Frantz's son in his concession speech. 204 00:10:23,182 --> 00:10:24,982 Speaker 2: I messaged you while we were watching that and I 205 00:10:25,062 --> 00:10:28,022 Speaker 2: was saying, it makes me feel lucky to live in 206 00:10:28,022 --> 00:10:31,942 Speaker 2: Australia because however you feel politically, the fact that speech 207 00:10:32,022 --> 00:10:34,622 Speaker 2: was so gracious in that moment, and also that Albert 208 00:10:34,622 --> 00:10:37,662 Speaker 2: did the same because when he made his acceptance speech 209 00:10:37,702 --> 00:10:40,382 Speaker 2: and you know, he's just been handed a win that 210 00:10:40,462 --> 00:10:43,862 Speaker 2: he didn't see coming, and the crowd started to boo 211 00:10:43,942 --> 00:10:46,862 Speaker 2: Peter Dutton when Albo said Dutton's name, and he stopped 212 00:10:46,862 --> 00:10:49,542 Speaker 2: them and he quite sternly chided them. 213 00:10:49,582 --> 00:10:53,022 Speaker 5: No, what we do in Australia is we treat people 214 00:10:53,022 --> 00:10:53,742 Speaker 5: with respect. 215 00:10:55,982 --> 00:10:58,702 Speaker 2: I felt warm and fuzzy about that because I think 216 00:10:59,302 --> 00:11:01,542 Speaker 2: you know, we talk a lot about the lowering of 217 00:11:01,582 --> 00:11:03,782 Speaker 2: the tone of public debate, we talk a lot about 218 00:11:03,822 --> 00:11:07,542 Speaker 2: the division, and I feel like this election result, but 219 00:11:07,782 --> 00:11:11,182 Speaker 2: modeled by those two speeches in particular, was a rejection 220 00:11:11,262 --> 00:11:11,502 Speaker 2: of that. 221 00:11:11,822 --> 00:11:12,062 Speaker 4: Yeah. 222 00:11:12,102 --> 00:11:14,542 Speaker 3: I felt very grateful that we live in a country 223 00:11:14,742 --> 00:11:20,062 Speaker 3: where both leaders in this case gave humble and considered 224 00:11:20,102 --> 00:11:22,622 Speaker 3: and graceful speeches. Like some people have said that the 225 00:11:22,662 --> 00:11:25,542 Speaker 3: Trump factor clarified a lot of Australians on what they 226 00:11:25,582 --> 00:11:27,222 Speaker 3: want and what they don't want, and that they've kind 227 00:11:27,222 --> 00:11:30,502 Speaker 3: of got conflict fatigue. That's something that Alberanize has been 228 00:11:30,542 --> 00:11:33,782 Speaker 3: working against a lot. But to have Dutton be so 229 00:11:34,742 --> 00:11:38,382 Speaker 3: humble in that loss to accept it, which sounds so basic, 230 00:11:38,502 --> 00:11:41,622 Speaker 3: but I think that that was that was really moving. 231 00:11:41,862 --> 00:11:44,502 Speaker 3: We're at a point now where the Liberal Party need 232 00:11:44,542 --> 00:11:46,942 Speaker 3: a new leader, they need an internal review and a 233 00:11:46,942 --> 00:11:49,902 Speaker 3: total party reset. And look, we of course know that 234 00:11:49,942 --> 00:11:52,422 Speaker 3: out louders voted all sorts of ways for all sorts 235 00:11:52,462 --> 00:11:55,942 Speaker 3: of different reasons, and we're not here to shame anyone 236 00:11:56,142 --> 00:11:58,822 Speaker 3: or comment on anyone's vote. But the facts are the facts. 237 00:11:59,222 --> 00:12:01,222 Speaker 3: Mea what happened, because at the. 238 00:12:01,182 --> 00:12:04,342 Speaker 1: Start of the year, the odds were that Dutton was 239 00:12:04,342 --> 00:12:05,942 Speaker 1: going to be the next prime minister. I mean that's 240 00:12:05,942 --> 00:12:08,942 Speaker 1: what the polling was saying. Alboat had some slips. There 241 00:12:08,942 --> 00:12:12,302 Speaker 1: was a sense of despair within the ALP that they 242 00:12:12,342 --> 00:12:15,982 Speaker 1: were just not ready. But then the campaign started because 243 00:12:15,982 --> 00:12:18,862 Speaker 1: no one expected. When Dutton was first elected as leader 244 00:12:18,902 --> 00:12:22,662 Speaker 1: of the opposition after the last election and Scott Morrison left, 245 00:12:23,462 --> 00:12:26,182 Speaker 1: no one really thought that he had a chance. But 246 00:12:26,222 --> 00:12:29,742 Speaker 1: then he surprised people by being quite a good opposition 247 00:12:29,862 --> 00:12:33,622 Speaker 1: leader in terms of having cut through getting a lot 248 00:12:33,662 --> 00:12:37,302 Speaker 1: of support. And what's been interesting is that there's three 249 00:12:37,502 --> 00:12:40,422 Speaker 1: different roles that you have to play as a politician. 250 00:12:40,742 --> 00:12:44,502 Speaker 1: One is being opposition leader, one is campaigning to be 251 00:12:44,622 --> 00:12:47,182 Speaker 1: the prime minister during an active campaign, and the third 252 00:12:47,262 --> 00:12:51,142 Speaker 1: is actually being prime minister. And some people are better 253 00:12:51,222 --> 00:12:53,542 Speaker 1: in opposition than they are as prime minister, like Tony 254 00:12:53,542 --> 00:12:57,422 Speaker 1: Abbott was quite good in opposition, but not what people 255 00:12:57,502 --> 00:13:00,582 Speaker 1: wanted in a leader. And as soon as the campaign started, 256 00:13:00,622 --> 00:13:03,542 Speaker 1: what's come out in the last forty eight hours is 257 00:13:03,622 --> 00:13:07,582 Speaker 1: how prepared the Labor Party was and how ill prepared 258 00:13:07,662 --> 00:13:11,902 Speaker 1: the Liberal Party was, and they had a lot of time. 259 00:13:11,942 --> 00:13:14,381 Speaker 1: It wasn't a surprise that the election was happening. In fact, 260 00:13:14,422 --> 00:13:16,182 Speaker 1: the election was delayed a little bit because of the 261 00:13:16,182 --> 00:13:19,662 Speaker 1: floods and the cyclone in Queensland. But they had no 262 00:13:19,782 --> 00:13:25,062 Speaker 1: economic policy. They made mistakes in the policies that they announced, 263 00:13:25,462 --> 00:13:27,462 Speaker 1: like the you know, all public servants were going to 264 00:13:27,502 --> 00:13:29,182 Speaker 1: have to work from home. That was an own goal 265 00:13:29,622 --> 00:13:33,182 Speaker 1: that they really couldn't recover from because that was positioned 266 00:13:33,382 --> 00:13:36,782 Speaker 1: smartly by the AOP as being anti women, about being 267 00:13:36,782 --> 00:13:39,102 Speaker 1: a threat to the private sector as well. They had 268 00:13:39,102 --> 00:13:42,142 Speaker 1: to then recount that position and they took a long time. 269 00:13:42,182 --> 00:13:44,022 Speaker 1: You know, the idea that the Liberal government or the 270 00:13:44,062 --> 00:13:48,262 Speaker 1: Liberal Party are the more fiscally responsible ones. They didn't 271 00:13:48,302 --> 00:13:51,502 Speaker 1: really have any vision. They didn't really have any policies, 272 00:13:51,982 --> 00:13:53,742 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people said that both 273 00:13:53,742 --> 00:13:57,222 Speaker 1: campaigns were pretty uninspiring. But even just the optics, I 274 00:13:57,222 --> 00:14:01,182 Speaker 1: don't think a lot of people could name many Liberal politicians, 275 00:14:01,582 --> 00:14:04,262 Speaker 1: you know, certainly not many women. There are a couple 276 00:14:04,422 --> 00:14:08,022 Speaker 1: Susan Lay, Jane Hume, but they weren't very high profile. 277 00:14:08,102 --> 00:14:11,502 Speaker 1: And friend of the pod At Mortlock, who started a 278 00:14:11,542 --> 00:14:15,302 Speaker 1: network called Hillmer's Network about trying to get more women 279 00:14:15,342 --> 00:14:18,902 Speaker 1: elected to the Liberal Party. You know, she's been sounding 280 00:14:18,902 --> 00:14:20,462 Speaker 1: the alarm for a really long time. 281 00:14:20,622 --> 00:14:23,062 Speaker 3: It felt like that was a very clear message that 282 00:14:23,102 --> 00:14:25,902 Speaker 3: happened when Morrison was you know, kick the Teals came 283 00:14:26,022 --> 00:14:27,862 Speaker 3: and the Teals came in, and it felt as though 284 00:14:27,862 --> 00:14:29,822 Speaker 3: there are a lot of lessons learnt three years ago 285 00:14:29,902 --> 00:14:31,462 Speaker 3: and all of them were forgotten. 286 00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:34,102 Speaker 2: Well, they just weren't picked up. Yeah, because you know, 287 00:14:34,222 --> 00:14:36,302 Speaker 2: you say that the alarm's been sounding in the Liberal 288 00:14:36,342 --> 00:14:39,582 Speaker 2: Party for a while that they need to modernize and 289 00:14:39,622 --> 00:14:42,582 Speaker 2: they need to diversify in terms of who they are. 290 00:14:43,302 --> 00:14:45,782 Speaker 2: And you know a lot of the Teal candidates would 291 00:14:45,822 --> 00:14:49,142 Speaker 2: have been natural Liberals in a slightly different setting and 292 00:14:49,182 --> 00:14:53,182 Speaker 2: they are smart, professional women. They obviously didn't feel they 293 00:14:53,182 --> 00:14:55,742 Speaker 2: had a place there. What the Labor Party would say, though, 294 00:14:55,822 --> 00:14:58,182 Speaker 2: is they would say that they put quotas in place 295 00:14:58,222 --> 00:15:00,542 Speaker 2: a very long time ago, that the Liberal Party have 296 00:15:00,582 --> 00:15:02,822 Speaker 2: always poo pooed and said quotas are not for us. 297 00:15:03,382 --> 00:15:05,822 Speaker 2: And it takes time to pay that off because you 298 00:15:05,862 --> 00:15:08,342 Speaker 2: have to grow a talent bench and they have to mature 299 00:15:08,382 --> 00:15:11,062 Speaker 2: and come to fruition. And now you know, in Queensland 300 00:15:11,142 --> 00:15:14,422 Speaker 2: they've now got six new female Labor MPs. It's amazing, 301 00:15:14,542 --> 00:15:17,662 Speaker 2: you know, there's parity in that party. So I think 302 00:15:17,742 --> 00:15:20,382 Speaker 2: one of the things that happened is that, because you're 303 00:15:20,422 --> 00:15:22,222 Speaker 2: right here that it was a pretty dull campaign in 304 00:15:22,262 --> 00:15:24,862 Speaker 2: many ways. But I think Albo read the mood, and 305 00:15:25,502 --> 00:15:28,702 Speaker 2: the mood is we don't want more division, we don't 306 00:15:28,742 --> 00:15:32,582 Speaker 2: want more rgbardi, we don't want this kind of you know, 307 00:15:32,662 --> 00:15:34,862 Speaker 2: in the final weeks of the campaign, when we talked 308 00:15:34,862 --> 00:15:37,622 Speaker 2: about it last week, suddenly we're talking about welcome to country. 309 00:15:37,702 --> 00:15:40,742 Speaker 2: And in my electra there were posters around and I'm 310 00:15:40,742 --> 00:15:42,582 Speaker 2: sure my electric wasn't the only one. I live in 311 00:15:42,582 --> 00:15:44,622 Speaker 2: a marginal seat in the regions of New South Wales 312 00:15:45,222 --> 00:15:47,742 Speaker 2: Liberal Party posters that were like going woke is sending 313 00:15:47,822 --> 00:15:50,982 Speaker 2: us broke. They were clearly trying to wedge a culture 314 00:15:51,022 --> 00:15:54,502 Speaker 2: war argument that has been working in America and worked 315 00:15:54,502 --> 00:15:57,662 Speaker 2: in various places. But it feels like Australians were like, 316 00:15:57,862 --> 00:15:59,942 Speaker 2: we're not interested in that. Because one of the things 317 00:15:59,982 --> 00:16:04,502 Speaker 2: I find amazing about really decisive election results, it's just 318 00:16:04,542 --> 00:16:06,742 Speaker 2: that idea that all these different people woke up in 319 00:16:06,782 --> 00:16:09,062 Speaker 2: all these different parts of the country in their living room, 320 00:16:09,062 --> 00:16:10,462 Speaker 2: put their song because I want to go to the 321 00:16:10,502 --> 00:16:14,662 Speaker 2: pold and thought the same thing, and they didn't necessarily think, oh, 322 00:16:14,702 --> 00:16:17,982 Speaker 2: We love these guys. They're doing an amazing job. Like 323 00:16:18,182 --> 00:16:20,862 Speaker 2: you know, there's been a lot of obviously disquiet about 324 00:16:20,862 --> 00:16:23,422 Speaker 2: the cost of living and about all kinds of things, 325 00:16:23,462 --> 00:16:25,582 Speaker 2: and from both sides of politics. You know, there are 326 00:16:25,622 --> 00:16:28,222 Speaker 2: plenty of people who don't think labor have differentiated themselves 327 00:16:28,302 --> 00:16:30,502 Speaker 2: enough on environment, on all kinds of issues like that, 328 00:16:30,782 --> 00:16:33,982 Speaker 2: but enough people just went not not what that guy's selling. 329 00:16:34,622 --> 00:16:37,582 Speaker 2: All over the country in all different Democrats didn't make 330 00:16:37,622 --> 00:16:38,022 Speaker 2: it good enough. 331 00:16:38,862 --> 00:16:42,462 Speaker 1: Neither did Trumpet of Patriots. Clive Palmer's party crashed out again, 332 00:16:42,862 --> 00:16:45,262 Speaker 1: like with all that money and all, so did one nation, 333 00:16:45,702 --> 00:16:47,582 Speaker 1: so did one nation, and so did the Greens. No 334 00:16:47,662 --> 00:16:50,062 Speaker 1: seats for the Greens. Adam Bant, the leader could lose 335 00:16:50,622 --> 00:16:54,382 Speaker 1: his seat. The Teals held looks like they'll lose possibly 336 00:16:54,422 --> 00:16:57,262 Speaker 1: lose one in Zoey Daniel and gain one in another seat. 337 00:16:57,822 --> 00:16:59,542 Speaker 1: So there were some upsets. The good news is that 338 00:16:59,582 --> 00:17:00,502 Speaker 1: it was over by eight. 339 00:17:01,302 --> 00:17:04,342 Speaker 3: Sure it was good for those how quickly it was over, 340 00:17:04,382 --> 00:17:06,782 Speaker 3: And I think I agree with you that Dutton. You know, 341 00:17:06,821 --> 00:17:08,942 Speaker 3: there were a few comments about things like hate media, 342 00:17:08,982 --> 00:17:12,821 Speaker 3: which just echoed some trump isms that I think we 343 00:17:12,862 --> 00:17:13,782 Speaker 3: are so sensitive to. 344 00:17:13,982 --> 00:17:16,061 Speaker 1: So it's very centrist, wasn't it in terms of the 345 00:17:16,742 --> 00:17:19,861 Speaker 1: extreme parties on the left and the right. People rejected 346 00:17:19,901 --> 00:17:23,181 Speaker 1: it for being in the center, which is how Australia is. 347 00:17:23,222 --> 00:17:27,181 Speaker 3: And I wonder how much tariffs and some of Trump's 348 00:17:27,222 --> 00:17:31,381 Speaker 3: policies coming into fruition scared people. But I also think 349 00:17:31,581 --> 00:17:34,982 Speaker 3: that there was some foreshadowing about what would happen because 350 00:17:34,982 --> 00:17:37,101 Speaker 3: of what happened in Canada. It's a real reminder of 351 00:17:37,101 --> 00:17:40,382 Speaker 3: how similar we are to Canada, because not only did 352 00:17:40,422 --> 00:17:42,581 Speaker 3: their Left party won the election, I think only a 353 00:17:42,581 --> 00:17:45,702 Speaker 3: week ago, their opposition leader also lost his. 354 00:17:45,742 --> 00:17:50,341 Speaker 1: Seat unexpectedly he was predicted to win, and then Trump 355 00:17:50,422 --> 00:17:52,262 Speaker 1: and all the chaos and everyone went, oh no. 356 00:17:52,621 --> 00:17:55,941 Speaker 3: It feels like the message from Canada and Australia is 357 00:17:56,141 --> 00:17:59,782 Speaker 3: we are not the United States. And I think Australians 358 00:17:59,821 --> 00:18:00,782 Speaker 3: are relieved. 359 00:18:01,141 --> 00:18:04,382 Speaker 2: After the break the story that Australians were really more 360 00:18:04,422 --> 00:18:07,981 Speaker 2: interested in than the election. We're talking, of course about 361 00:18:08,381 --> 00:18:14,542 Speaker 2: Nagi versus books at times. At the end of last week, 362 00:18:14,581 --> 00:18:17,061 Speaker 2: it felt like the big conversation in the country in 363 00:18:17,182 --> 00:18:20,982 Speaker 2: election time was not Dutton or Albow, but was more 364 00:18:21,061 --> 00:18:24,141 Speaker 2: Nagy or Brookie. If you don't know what I'm talking about, 365 00:18:24,182 --> 00:18:27,742 Speaker 2: and I sincerely doubt it. Here's a very top line 366 00:18:27,742 --> 00:18:30,821 Speaker 2: refresher and what happened between two of the biggest names 367 00:18:30,861 --> 00:18:36,061 Speaker 2: in Australian publishing and food last week. Now, I want 368 00:18:36,061 --> 00:18:37,821 Speaker 2: to acknowledge before we get into this that where this 369 00:18:38,222 --> 00:18:40,861 Speaker 2: has gone since the news broke on about Tuesday went 370 00:18:40,942 --> 00:18:42,421 Speaker 2: the last week is it has turned into a bit 371 00:18:42,462 --> 00:18:44,901 Speaker 2: of a toxic internet pylon. We definitely don't want to 372 00:18:44,942 --> 00:18:47,542 Speaker 2: add to that, but it does touch on several big 373 00:18:47,581 --> 00:18:50,941 Speaker 2: themes that are really worth unpacking. I think Nagi Mahashi 374 00:18:51,101 --> 00:18:53,901 Speaker 2: is probably the reason that I and many writers like 375 00:18:53,982 --> 00:18:56,462 Speaker 2: me have a book deal actually, as in that her 376 00:18:56,502 --> 00:19:01,742 Speaker 2: cookbooks as Recipe to Eats are so successful many people 377 00:19:01,782 --> 00:19:05,462 Speaker 2: say that they keep the Australian publishing industry afloat. She's 378 00:19:05,502 --> 00:19:07,302 Speaker 2: not the only one, of course, Brookies books are also 379 00:19:07,381 --> 00:19:11,861 Speaker 2: very successful, and so are several others. Butts is a phenomena. 380 00:19:11,502 --> 00:19:16,182 Speaker 3: And her last book, which was called Tonight, broke industry records. 381 00:19:16,222 --> 00:19:18,782 Speaker 3: It was the talk of the industry because I don't 382 00:19:18,782 --> 00:19:21,542 Speaker 3: think there had ever been a nonfiction book in Australia 383 00:19:21,581 --> 00:19:22,302 Speaker 3: that did what that. 384 00:19:22,341 --> 00:19:25,341 Speaker 2: Yet and the first one Dinner won the Book of 385 00:19:25,381 --> 00:19:28,141 Speaker 2: the Year Award outside Jamie Oliver, like, it's hard to 386 00:19:28,222 --> 00:19:32,222 Speaker 2: overstate how successful Nagi is and how much people love 387 00:19:32,262 --> 00:19:33,661 Speaker 2: her those who don't cook. 388 00:19:33,901 --> 00:19:34,662 Speaker 1: What is special? 389 00:19:36,942 --> 00:19:39,901 Speaker 3: Puts cinnamon on my vegetables and it's really changed my life. 390 00:19:40,101 --> 00:19:41,422 Speaker 3: I think that is her that told me. 391 00:19:41,381 --> 00:19:43,942 Speaker 2: Today be the thing that's great about Nagi. And I've 392 00:19:43,982 --> 00:19:47,302 Speaker 2: recommended her recipes on this show before. It just works. 393 00:19:47,542 --> 00:19:51,222 Speaker 2: So Nagi is known in the food world for being 394 00:19:51,262 --> 00:19:56,061 Speaker 2: a rigorous, rigorous tester. She absolutely walks her talk. She 395 00:19:56,101 --> 00:19:58,502 Speaker 2: doesn't phone anything in. She also has quite a big 396 00:19:58,542 --> 00:20:00,901 Speaker 2: sort of charitable arm to what she does. She provides 397 00:20:00,942 --> 00:20:05,302 Speaker 2: meals to vulnerable and homeless. But her recipes are just solid. 398 00:20:05,502 --> 00:20:08,782 Speaker 2: Her cookbooks are very sensible. They have rules in them 399 00:20:08,861 --> 00:20:10,862 Speaker 2: and they just work. We make lots of Naggi things 400 00:20:10,942 --> 00:20:11,422 Speaker 2: and they go. 401 00:20:11,462 --> 00:20:13,941 Speaker 1: Off when you say that, like does some recipes just 402 00:20:13,982 --> 00:20:14,462 Speaker 1: not work? 403 00:20:14,581 --> 00:20:14,782 Speaker 4: Well? 404 00:20:14,821 --> 00:20:17,341 Speaker 2: You know, if you're a cookbook buyer, there are cookbooks 405 00:20:17,341 --> 00:20:19,222 Speaker 2: you buy because they look nice and you want them 406 00:20:19,222 --> 00:20:21,262 Speaker 2: on your shelf, but you're never going to open them. 407 00:20:21,141 --> 00:20:27,621 Speaker 1: Right, It'll be like reduce this to yeah, a lengu. 408 00:20:24,942 --> 00:20:31,022 Speaker 3: A level, Like I can't cook and I have Naggie 409 00:20:31,182 --> 00:20:33,382 Speaker 3: because I think that she shee will hold her hand. 410 00:20:33,462 --> 00:20:35,661 Speaker 2: Yeah, and on a lengy whose recipes are amazing, but 411 00:20:35,702 --> 00:20:38,101 Speaker 2: you have to go and buy twenty five new things, 412 00:20:38,341 --> 00:20:40,661 Speaker 2: you know to make any meal in that book, whereas 413 00:20:40,782 --> 00:20:42,782 Speaker 2: Naggi's much more what have you got in the cupboard? 414 00:20:43,262 --> 00:20:45,621 Speaker 2: Let's make something on a Wednesday at five? You know, 415 00:20:45,702 --> 00:20:48,861 Speaker 2: she's that person dinner exactly, which is why SU's genius. 416 00:20:49,262 --> 00:20:52,622 Speaker 2: Now Brookie, on the other hand, who's also incredibly popular 417 00:20:52,702 --> 00:20:55,621 Speaker 2: and very popular on social on TikTok in particular, she 418 00:20:55,702 --> 00:20:57,901 Speaker 2: has got more of like a retail arm to what 419 00:20:57,982 --> 00:21:02,181 Speaker 2: she does. Right. So brookiees things dessert, particularly cookies and things, 420 00:21:02,661 --> 00:21:04,581 Speaker 2: and she has shops, she has pop up shops, she 421 00:21:04,621 --> 00:21:07,421 Speaker 2: has a cookie delivery business, and she's huge and like 422 00:21:07,581 --> 00:21:13,742 Speaker 2: viral cookie recipes and things. So different, but saying ballpark right. Anyway, 423 00:21:13,821 --> 00:21:17,061 Speaker 2: what happened last week is that Nagi says that brook 424 00:21:17,141 --> 00:21:21,742 Speaker 2: Bellamy plagiarized two of her recipes, notably caramel slice and backlavar. 425 00:21:22,182 --> 00:21:25,782 Speaker 2: She wrote on social media and on her blog about it, 426 00:21:25,821 --> 00:21:28,742 Speaker 2: and this is what she said. When a multimillion dollar 427 00:21:28,782 --> 00:21:32,141 Speaker 2: cookbook by a social media influencer published by a blue 428 00:21:32,222 --> 00:21:36,021 Speaker 2: chip publisher features numerous recipes that in my opinion are 429 00:21:36,061 --> 00:21:40,302 Speaker 2: plagiarized given the detailed and extensive word for words similarity 430 00:21:40,381 --> 00:21:43,821 Speaker 2: to mine and those of other authors. She said this 431 00:21:43,982 --> 00:21:46,581 Speaker 2: wasn't a post she was publishing lightly, that she'd spent 432 00:21:46,702 --> 00:21:50,021 Speaker 2: many sleepless nights freading over it and many hours writing 433 00:21:50,061 --> 00:21:51,941 Speaker 2: it to get it right. She said, I know the 434 00:21:52,022 --> 00:21:55,101 Speaker 2: easiest and safest path would be to stay silent, and 435 00:21:55,141 --> 00:21:57,221 Speaker 2: there's a risk that legal action will be brought against 436 00:21:57,262 --> 00:22:00,181 Speaker 2: me for speaking out. It's daunting to take on a 437 00:22:00,182 --> 00:22:03,302 Speaker 2: major publisher and an influencer with a huge TikTok for 438 00:22:03,422 --> 00:22:04,821 Speaker 2: what do you think she wanted to achieve. 439 00:22:05,262 --> 00:22:08,902 Speaker 3: It's interesting because I wonder if and I'm sure we'll 440 00:22:08,942 --> 00:22:14,341 Speaker 3: get into this, but copyright law around recipes is slippery, 441 00:22:14,702 --> 00:22:19,221 Speaker 3: so to actually copyright your specific recipe, because there are 442 00:22:19,222 --> 00:22:22,462 Speaker 3: only so many ways to make certain things, it's very 443 00:22:22,462 --> 00:22:24,181 Speaker 3: hard to prove in a court of law. What you 444 00:22:24,302 --> 00:22:28,821 Speaker 3: do own is the story around it. The IP is 445 00:22:28,861 --> 00:22:31,981 Speaker 3: about the context that might exist in the book. But 446 00:22:32,061 --> 00:22:35,902 Speaker 3: I think that Nagi probably knew, and she's clearly had 447 00:22:35,901 --> 00:22:38,702 Speaker 3: this issue because she's consulted with lawyers, and I think 448 00:22:38,742 --> 00:22:42,982 Speaker 3: she felt stuck. And what Nagi had was the capital 449 00:22:43,182 --> 00:22:46,542 Speaker 3: of her audience and the people who love what she does. 450 00:22:47,422 --> 00:22:50,462 Speaker 3: A few things. The fact that Brookie's book was selling really, 451 00:22:50,462 --> 00:22:52,901 Speaker 3: really well and that it had made a significant profit 452 00:22:53,141 --> 00:22:56,581 Speaker 3: was one thing. The second, which is just worth noting, 453 00:22:57,141 --> 00:23:00,222 Speaker 3: is that the Australian Book Industry Awards are coming up 454 00:23:00,262 --> 00:23:02,621 Speaker 3: in Melbourne and they are both nominated in the same 455 00:23:02,661 --> 00:23:05,941 Speaker 3: category for Illustrated Book of the Year, which is often 456 00:23:06,182 --> 00:23:10,101 Speaker 3: recipe books. And so I imagine for Nagi if we take 457 00:23:10,141 --> 00:23:12,782 Speaker 3: and of course these allegations we can't prove or disprove, 458 00:23:12,861 --> 00:23:15,262 Speaker 3: but if she's sitting there in Melbourne and you see 459 00:23:15,262 --> 00:23:17,542 Speaker 3: Brookie Winn and you think that she's plagiarized one of 460 00:23:17,581 --> 00:23:20,221 Speaker 3: your recipes, then that would be a hard thing to 461 00:23:20,222 --> 00:23:23,981 Speaker 3: sit with. But I also think that there's something revealing 462 00:23:24,302 --> 00:23:28,341 Speaker 3: in maybe some of Nagi's language, and she refers to 463 00:23:28,381 --> 00:23:33,381 Speaker 3: Brookie immediately as a social media influencer, and I wonder 464 00:23:33,422 --> 00:23:36,262 Speaker 3: if a tension here is between the social media influencer 465 00:23:36,502 --> 00:23:40,222 Speaker 3: and almost the old guard, which Nagi as someone who, 466 00:23:40,262 --> 00:23:44,261 Speaker 3: as you say, she has built this relationship with her 467 00:23:44,302 --> 00:23:47,861 Speaker 3: community and I'm not undermining Brookie at all, but there 468 00:23:47,982 --> 00:23:53,622 Speaker 3: is this influencer subculture that can sometimes feel like they 469 00:23:53,661 --> 00:23:55,702 Speaker 3: click their fingers and decide to move into a certain 470 00:23:55,742 --> 00:23:59,942 Speaker 3: industry like podcasting. And I don't think that is actually 471 00:23:59,982 --> 00:24:04,542 Speaker 3: Brookie because just from what I know, she owns shops. 472 00:24:04,621 --> 00:24:06,542 Speaker 3: As you were saying, she's been doing this for a 473 00:24:06,581 --> 00:24:09,142 Speaker 3: lot of years. She isn't some influencer who's never tried 474 00:24:09,182 --> 00:24:12,821 Speaker 3: to rest. But I do think that the reason this 475 00:24:13,341 --> 00:24:17,221 Speaker 3: has got so much traction is because it's influencer versus 476 00:24:17,381 --> 00:24:19,661 Speaker 3: olgard Like I think that's how we're positioning it. 477 00:24:19,942 --> 00:24:21,821 Speaker 2: This is what the allegations are. 478 00:24:21,942 --> 00:24:22,102 Speaker 4: Now. 479 00:24:22,182 --> 00:24:25,141 Speaker 2: Obviously Brookie has come out and said that absolutely isn't true. 480 00:24:25,182 --> 00:24:27,342 Speaker 2: I didn't plagiarize. She's made the point that it's very 481 00:24:27,341 --> 00:24:30,341 Speaker 2: difficult to differentiate classic recipes from each other, and she 482 00:24:30,422 --> 00:24:34,222 Speaker 2: denies any claims of plagiarism. Of course, right, so that's 483 00:24:34,222 --> 00:24:34,942 Speaker 2: what happened. 484 00:24:34,982 --> 00:24:38,141 Speaker 3: And then someone else came out, and then. 485 00:24:37,502 --> 00:24:40,461 Speaker 2: You know, as the way these stories evolve, now there 486 00:24:40,462 --> 00:24:42,382 Speaker 2: are other people saying there are other things in here 487 00:24:42,381 --> 00:24:44,421 Speaker 2: that were plagiarized, and some people are saying, well, Nagi 488 00:24:44,502 --> 00:24:47,341 Speaker 2: sometimes has helped herself to all like this. It's spiraled 489 00:24:47,422 --> 00:24:49,861 Speaker 2: and spiraled. I'd love to hear from youmir about what 490 00:24:49,901 --> 00:24:52,902 Speaker 2: you think about where it's gone because predictably, and it's 491 00:24:52,901 --> 00:24:56,221 Speaker 2: depressing that this is predictable. This is spiraled into a 492 00:24:56,262 --> 00:24:59,581 Speaker 2: massive pile on death threats, particularly for Brookie in the beginning, 493 00:24:59,581 --> 00:25:02,061 Speaker 2: But it seems that Naggi's also copying a lot of blowback. 494 00:25:02,101 --> 00:25:04,661 Speaker 2: Now a horrible place to be at the bottom of 495 00:25:04,661 --> 00:25:07,181 Speaker 2: a social media pylon. It seems we can't look at 496 00:25:07,182 --> 00:25:09,502 Speaker 2: a story like this without making it incredibly personal. 497 00:25:09,542 --> 00:25:11,262 Speaker 1: Well what happens now? 498 00:25:11,381 --> 00:25:14,302 Speaker 2: And Nagi has posted to say, please stop trolling. 499 00:25:14,581 --> 00:25:17,701 Speaker 1: I know that this is just a very very small 500 00:25:17,702 --> 00:25:20,421 Speaker 1: percentage of people online. I know the majority of people 501 00:25:20,542 --> 00:25:23,142 Speaker 1: are good, fun, normal people. 502 00:25:24,101 --> 00:25:28,542 Speaker 4: You know, share your opinions, have heated debates, support Bookie, 503 00:25:28,702 --> 00:25:31,982 Speaker 4: support me, disagree with both of us, think we're pathetic, 504 00:25:32,502 --> 00:25:35,742 Speaker 4: whatever you want, but keep it respectful. 505 00:25:36,141 --> 00:25:38,702 Speaker 2: Do you think that was inevitable? And what happens now? 506 00:25:38,942 --> 00:25:41,661 Speaker 1: Whenever I feel wronged, the first thing I do is 507 00:25:41,702 --> 00:25:45,381 Speaker 1: go to the group chat, any group chat, and say 508 00:25:45,422 --> 00:25:48,742 Speaker 1: what's happened? And I need people to meet me at 509 00:25:48,742 --> 00:25:55,461 Speaker 1: my level of outrage, frustration, indignation, right, and that is 510 00:25:55,502 --> 00:25:58,461 Speaker 1: all I need And then I calm down, But I 511 00:25:58,542 --> 00:26:00,542 Speaker 1: need them to reflect back at me. So I'm like 512 00:26:00,621 --> 00:26:02,982 Speaker 1: it's not fair, and they're like, that's outrageous. How could 513 00:26:03,022 --> 00:26:05,782 Speaker 1: that happen? The problem is when you do that on 514 00:26:05,901 --> 00:26:09,381 Speaker 1: social you always have to say to yourself, what do 515 00:26:09,422 --> 00:26:11,462 Speaker 1: I want the outcome of this to be? And that's 516 00:26:11,462 --> 00:26:13,702 Speaker 1: why I said to you, Jesse, what did Nagi want 517 00:26:13,742 --> 00:26:16,181 Speaker 1: when she did that? She says she didn't want money. 518 00:26:16,381 --> 00:26:18,542 Speaker 1: Did she want an apology, she wanted to wanted an admission? 519 00:26:18,621 --> 00:26:21,061 Speaker 1: Did she want all of those things. My understanding is 520 00:26:21,101 --> 00:26:23,222 Speaker 1: that Brooki's publisher had already said they're going to change 521 00:26:23,262 --> 00:26:26,502 Speaker 1: the recipes in future issues of the book whatever. But 522 00:26:27,302 --> 00:26:29,542 Speaker 1: the problem when you take it to social and I 523 00:26:29,581 --> 00:26:32,741 Speaker 1: think that is what Nagi wanted. She wanted everybody to 524 00:26:32,782 --> 00:26:37,182 Speaker 1: say this isn't fair, how upsetting, and reflect back to her. 525 00:26:37,262 --> 00:26:41,061 Speaker 1: So she felt seen and heard and understood. But the 526 00:26:41,101 --> 00:26:42,901 Speaker 1: problem is when it's on social and out of the 527 00:26:42,901 --> 00:26:46,102 Speaker 1: group chat, and you're famous and it's someone else famous 528 00:26:46,141 --> 00:26:49,542 Speaker 1: and it's in public, you lose control of it immediately, 529 00:26:49,861 --> 00:26:52,302 Speaker 1: and you lose control of what people say about you, 530 00:26:52,302 --> 00:26:55,222 Speaker 1: You lose control about what people say about the other person. 531 00:26:56,341 --> 00:26:58,901 Speaker 1: It takes on the life of its own. And I 532 00:26:58,942 --> 00:27:01,861 Speaker 1: think that when Nagi then came out and was like, 533 00:27:01,982 --> 00:27:04,141 Speaker 1: I don't want people to troll. This is out of control. 534 00:27:04,262 --> 00:27:06,542 Speaker 1: A lot of people understandably said, what did you think 535 00:27:06,621 --> 00:27:09,141 Speaker 1: was going to happen? And I know that some people 536 00:27:09,141 --> 00:27:11,821 Speaker 1: have said Nagi maybe just doesn't understand social media. I 537 00:27:11,821 --> 00:27:14,581 Speaker 1: don't buy that she's a digital native. She's started on 538 00:27:14,621 --> 00:27:17,341 Speaker 1: a blog, she's smart. I think both of these women 539 00:27:17,381 --> 00:27:20,061 Speaker 1: are smart. I think it's really sad that these two 540 00:27:20,141 --> 00:27:24,061 Speaker 1: incredible business women that this has become the narrative. You 541 00:27:24,101 --> 00:27:26,461 Speaker 1: can't turn off that tap once you turn it on. 542 00:27:26,502 --> 00:27:28,581 Speaker 1: That's why you've got to always be so careful, and 543 00:27:28,621 --> 00:27:30,341 Speaker 1: that's why there have been times when the three of 544 00:27:30,422 --> 00:27:32,982 Speaker 1: us have had to check each other and just go, 545 00:27:33,462 --> 00:27:36,421 Speaker 1: don't post, don't post, don't post, don't say it. I 546 00:27:36,462 --> 00:27:38,862 Speaker 1: know it feels unfair that you've been accused of this thing, 547 00:27:38,942 --> 00:27:41,861 Speaker 1: or that this person's done this thing. Don't say anything, 548 00:27:41,861 --> 00:27:43,542 Speaker 1: because you're just going to make it worse, and that, 549 00:27:43,742 --> 00:27:45,022 Speaker 1: to me, that's what's happened. 550 00:27:45,302 --> 00:27:47,262 Speaker 3: I agree with you. I did see that, and I 551 00:27:47,341 --> 00:27:50,341 Speaker 3: thought we are well acquainted enough with the internet to 552 00:27:50,462 --> 00:27:52,261 Speaker 3: know that death threats were where it's going to go, 553 00:27:52,782 --> 00:27:54,942 Speaker 3: protesting outside that shop, boycotting the. 554 00:27:54,861 --> 00:27:56,621 Speaker 1: Business, abusing the employees. 555 00:27:56,782 --> 00:27:58,981 Speaker 3: Her life was going to be Brookie and the fetal 556 00:27:59,022 --> 00:28:00,661 Speaker 3: position was an inevitability. 557 00:28:00,821 --> 00:28:03,621 Speaker 2: But I think that's what Nagi wanted. 558 00:28:03,581 --> 00:28:07,022 Speaker 3: Yes, okay. And on the other hand, to Nagi's point, 559 00:28:07,222 --> 00:28:11,102 Speaker 3: if you are either of these women, your recipes and 560 00:28:11,141 --> 00:28:14,702 Speaker 3: your work is your entire livelihood. Like Nagi has spent 561 00:28:15,141 --> 00:28:18,542 Speaker 3: the last however many years putting together these recipes, and she, 562 00:28:18,901 --> 00:28:20,782 Speaker 3: I think wanted to draw a line in the sand 563 00:28:21,182 --> 00:28:23,302 Speaker 3: and say I want to have a discussion or I 564 00:28:23,341 --> 00:28:26,302 Speaker 3: want to make a point about ip because I've got 565 00:28:26,341 --> 00:28:29,341 Speaker 3: someone who's just come out of nowhere and taken my recipe. 566 00:28:29,381 --> 00:28:31,542 Speaker 3: I think in a AI climate as well, there's an 567 00:28:31,661 --> 00:28:35,661 Speaker 3: enormous sensitivity among writers about having their work use for 568 00:28:35,702 --> 00:28:36,942 Speaker 3: someone else's profit. 569 00:28:36,742 --> 00:28:39,701 Speaker 1: And chefs will often do a cooks or recipe. Writers 570 00:28:39,742 --> 00:28:43,462 Speaker 1: will often do a hat tip to another person who's 571 00:28:43,462 --> 00:28:45,942 Speaker 1: inspired the recipe or whatever. That's very common. I wonder 572 00:28:45,982 --> 00:28:50,342 Speaker 1: how many enterprising bakers made caramel slices instead of democracy 573 00:28:50,342 --> 00:28:51,702 Speaker 1: sausages for the stalls. 574 00:28:51,782 --> 00:28:54,062 Speaker 3: Oh, there's been a lot on Saturdays, a lot of cravings. 575 00:28:54,102 --> 00:28:56,661 Speaker 3: But I think for those of us who don't understand 576 00:28:56,942 --> 00:29:00,662 Speaker 3: cooking and don't understand recipes. The discovery for me has 577 00:29:00,702 --> 00:29:03,782 Speaker 3: been that recipe books are so much about connection and 578 00:29:03,862 --> 00:29:07,582 Speaker 3: so much about trust and how you feel towards that author, 579 00:29:07,661 --> 00:29:11,902 Speaker 3: and that's been in to Blye and I think irretrievably 580 00:29:12,142 --> 00:29:13,702 Speaker 3: undermined in Brookie's work. 581 00:29:14,502 --> 00:29:17,701 Speaker 1: After the break, Prince Harry has broken his silence again. 582 00:29:18,102 --> 00:29:21,221 Speaker 1: The new interview that came out over the weekend. We 583 00:29:21,262 --> 00:29:22,262 Speaker 1: are going to unpack it. 584 00:29:22,822 --> 00:29:26,542 Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday 585 00:29:26,582 --> 00:29:30,662 Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link 586 00:29:30,661 --> 00:29:32,421 Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears 587 00:29:32,702 --> 00:29:35,461 Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to 588 00:29:35,622 --> 00:29:40,982 Speaker 2: all our current subscribers. 589 00:29:42,462 --> 00:29:44,661 Speaker 1: Prince Harry gave an interview to the BBC over the 590 00:29:44,702 --> 00:29:49,222 Speaker 1: weekend that has been described as heartbreaking, petulant, misguided, seething 591 00:29:49,862 --> 00:29:53,461 Speaker 1: and a really bad idea by anyone who watched it. 592 00:29:53,542 --> 00:29:55,941 Speaker 1: He sort of seems to veer between wanting to punch 593 00:29:55,982 --> 00:30:00,582 Speaker 1: someone and bursting into tears. It followed his loss in 594 00:30:00,622 --> 00:30:02,862 Speaker 1: a Court of appeal case in the UK where he 595 00:30:03,062 --> 00:30:07,462 Speaker 1: sought to reinstate his full publicly funded police protection after 596 00:30:07,502 --> 00:30:10,181 Speaker 1: it was removed when he and Megan step back from 597 00:30:10,262 --> 00:30:13,022 Speaker 1: royal duties in twenty twenty. Here's some of what he 598 00:30:13,062 --> 00:30:13,542 Speaker 1: had to say. 599 00:30:13,742 --> 00:30:16,941 Speaker 7: It is very clear that from twenty twenty, because I 600 00:30:17,142 --> 00:30:19,782 Speaker 7: was no longer allowed an official role, and because I 601 00:30:19,902 --> 00:30:24,661 Speaker 7: decided to remove myself eventually from the institution, that my 602 00:30:24,742 --> 00:30:28,421 Speaker 7: life got devalued from the highest score to the lowest 603 00:30:28,422 --> 00:30:30,022 Speaker 7: score overnight. 604 00:30:30,302 --> 00:30:31,622 Speaker 2: And how does that make you feel? 605 00:30:31,702 --> 00:30:35,782 Speaker 1: Given you have expressed numerous times that you do not 606 00:30:35,902 --> 00:30:37,942 Speaker 1: want history to repeat itself. 607 00:30:38,262 --> 00:30:40,742 Speaker 7: I don't want history to repeat itself. I think there's 608 00:30:40,742 --> 00:30:42,661 Speaker 7: a lot of other people out there, the majority, they 609 00:30:42,702 --> 00:30:46,501 Speaker 7: also don't want history repeat itself. Through the disclosure process, 610 00:30:46,542 --> 00:30:49,182 Speaker 7: I've discovered that some people want history to repeat itself, 611 00:30:49,222 --> 00:30:52,782 Speaker 7: which is pretty dark. I would love reconciliation with my family. 612 00:30:53,262 --> 00:30:56,022 Speaker 7: You know, there's no point in continuing to fight anymore. 613 00:30:56,182 --> 00:30:59,181 Speaker 7: As I said, life is precious. I don't know how 614 00:30:59,262 --> 00:31:02,302 Speaker 7: much longer my father has. You know, he won't speak 615 00:31:02,302 --> 00:31:03,941 Speaker 7: to me because of this security stuff. 616 00:31:04,022 --> 00:31:07,902 Speaker 1: Oh that is so dark. He's, of course, referring to Diana. 617 00:31:08,062 --> 00:31:12,022 Speaker 1: His mother refused her royal security protection because she thought 618 00:31:12,022 --> 00:31:16,982 Speaker 1: that they were spying on her, and that ended obviously tragically. 619 00:31:17,742 --> 00:31:20,221 Speaker 1: The reaction was very swift after the interview, the British 620 00:31:20,222 --> 00:31:23,822 Speaker 1: public overwhelmingly think Harry and Meghan should lose their role titles, 621 00:31:23,822 --> 00:31:27,142 Speaker 1: and Buckingham Palace issued a very blunt statement. They said, 622 00:31:27,462 --> 00:31:30,742 Speaker 1: all of these issues have been examined repeatedly and meticulously 623 00:31:30,782 --> 00:31:35,022 Speaker 1: by the courts, with the same conclusion reached on each occasion. 624 00:31:35,382 --> 00:31:37,342 Speaker 3: I don't get it. I don't get why people are 625 00:31:37,382 --> 00:31:41,661 Speaker 3: so angry. 626 00:31:39,822 --> 00:31:43,461 Speaker 2: Falling off my chair with irritation Harry. One of my 627 00:31:43,542 --> 00:31:47,582 Speaker 2: Roman empires is why Meghan cops all the abuse when 628 00:31:47,782 --> 00:31:50,822 Speaker 2: Harry is just the most entire I'm just going to 629 00:31:50,862 --> 00:31:55,742 Speaker 2: say it, He's just the most entitled winger in public life. 630 00:31:55,902 --> 00:31:58,942 Speaker 2: Like I read a whole book about how hard done 631 00:31:58,982 --> 00:32:01,582 Speaker 2: by he is. It's a very good book. I encourage 632 00:32:01,582 --> 00:32:04,062 Speaker 2: you all to read it. But he just has this 633 00:32:05,022 --> 00:32:11,782 Speaker 2: entire inability to be able to see how unbelievably privileged 634 00:32:11,822 --> 00:32:15,142 Speaker 2: he is, and how every time he puts himself in 635 00:32:15,182 --> 00:32:17,902 Speaker 2: a victim sy over and over and over again. How 636 00:32:17,942 --> 00:32:20,342 Speaker 2: can you sit there and basically say, which is what 637 00:32:20,382 --> 00:32:23,102 Speaker 2: he just did? That my dad doesn't really care if 638 00:32:23,102 --> 00:32:25,221 Speaker 2: I die or if his grandchildren die. He doesn't really care, 639 00:32:25,342 --> 00:32:26,941 Speaker 2: just wants to win. And then in the next breath 640 00:32:26,982 --> 00:32:29,782 Speaker 2: say I'd love a reconciliation. I don't know how much 641 00:32:29,822 --> 00:32:33,302 Speaker 2: time he's got left. It's like you want a reconciliation 642 00:32:33,622 --> 00:32:35,941 Speaker 2: with your family. When you're going on the record on 643 00:32:35,982 --> 00:32:38,262 Speaker 2: the BBC and basically saying that I don't care whether 644 00:32:38,302 --> 00:32:38,661 Speaker 2: or not I do. 645 00:32:38,782 --> 00:32:41,181 Speaker 1: I'm saying it was an establishment stitut that's insane. 646 00:32:41,622 --> 00:32:44,822 Speaker 3: I okay, I did not watch it. I've watched a 647 00:32:44,822 --> 00:32:49,222 Speaker 3: few clips. But I think that the reason we find 648 00:32:50,302 --> 00:32:53,142 Speaker 3: this difficult to watch and the outcry by a lot 649 00:32:53,142 --> 00:32:55,261 Speaker 3: of people is because we're not watching a grown man. 650 00:32:55,302 --> 00:32:56,622 Speaker 3: We're watching a frightened little boy. 651 00:32:56,782 --> 00:32:59,542 Speaker 2: Yes, but that's his problem. He's got a lot of therapy, 652 00:32:59,742 --> 00:33:00,302 Speaker 2: is it. 653 00:33:02,142 --> 00:33:05,661 Speaker 3: Is it a problem that he directly inherited from the 654 00:33:05,702 --> 00:33:08,862 Speaker 3: man who is denying him protection. Like, I think that 655 00:33:08,902 --> 00:33:12,022 Speaker 3: he comes cross as well. I was gonna say paranoid, 656 00:33:12,022 --> 00:33:13,102 Speaker 3: but I think he might have a point. 657 00:33:13,742 --> 00:33:14,542 Speaker 2: He's not paranoid. 658 00:33:14,622 --> 00:33:16,862 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that he's right in being terrified about 659 00:33:16,862 --> 00:33:17,461 Speaker 3: his own security. 660 00:33:17,502 --> 00:33:20,022 Speaker 2: But this is this is a point to prove situation right, 661 00:33:20,022 --> 00:33:22,062 Speaker 2: because actually the way things stand is that it's a 662 00:33:22,062 --> 00:33:24,142 Speaker 2: case by case basis on whether or not he will 663 00:33:24,182 --> 00:33:27,822 Speaker 2: get tax payer funded security. Now to be clear on this. 664 00:33:27,862 --> 00:33:30,502 Speaker 2: If people are wondering what the argument's about, Let's say 665 00:33:30,702 --> 00:33:34,941 Speaker 2: that Taylor Swift goes to the UK or anywhere in 666 00:33:34,982 --> 00:33:38,022 Speaker 2: the world, right, she pays for her own security, except 667 00:33:38,102 --> 00:33:40,462 Speaker 2: and Harry brought this up in court, actually that when 668 00:33:40,502 --> 00:33:42,661 Speaker 2: she came to the UK most recently for Eras, she 669 00:33:42,702 --> 00:33:44,421 Speaker 2: did get a little bit of help from the government. 670 00:33:44,462 --> 00:33:47,421 Speaker 2: She did get a bit of like police escort to 671 00:33:47,702 --> 00:33:50,542 Speaker 2: venues and things like that. But in general, high profile, 672 00:33:51,062 --> 00:33:53,902 Speaker 2: rich and famous people pay for their own security. They 673 00:33:53,902 --> 00:33:56,382 Speaker 2: do not expect the governments of the land to do that. Now, 674 00:33:56,422 --> 00:33:59,342 Speaker 2: Harry's point is he's not just rich and famous person, 675 00:33:59,582 --> 00:34:03,502 Speaker 2: he's a royal. He chose not to be a royal. 676 00:34:03,782 --> 00:34:05,862 Speaker 2: He chose to go and make his own money and 677 00:34:05,862 --> 00:34:08,462 Speaker 2: make his fortune. And I'm cheering him on in that because, 678 00:34:08,661 --> 00:34:11,022 Speaker 2: as I've been saying to me last few weeks, one 679 00:34:11,102 --> 00:34:13,221 Speaker 2: thing I learned from all the Megan videos I'm watching 680 00:34:13,262 --> 00:34:15,262 Speaker 2: at the moment is she seems so happy. They built 681 00:34:15,262 --> 00:34:18,262 Speaker 2: a beautiful life, a wonderful life, and they are coining 682 00:34:18,261 --> 00:34:21,741 Speaker 2: it in. He is making handover fist millions of dollars 683 00:34:21,822 --> 00:34:23,661 Speaker 2: here and there. His book is the highest selling non 684 00:34:23,741 --> 00:34:28,622 Speaker 2: fiction book of all time? Why on earth should he 685 00:34:28,822 --> 00:34:31,142 Speaker 2: when he goes to England, not on royal duties, but because, 686 00:34:31,181 --> 00:34:33,462 Speaker 2: as he said, I want to visit my friends. Why 687 00:34:33,542 --> 00:34:35,661 Speaker 2: on earth should taxpayers pay for him? 688 00:34:35,741 --> 00:34:39,062 Speaker 1: Well, the reason is, and he says, when you've got 689 00:34:39,062 --> 00:34:43,502 Speaker 1: official government security, they can have guns, they've got access 690 00:34:43,502 --> 00:34:46,741 Speaker 1: to information and intelligence and I five and all of 691 00:34:46,781 --> 00:34:49,582 Speaker 1: the secret stuff. When you've got private security, they can't 692 00:34:49,582 --> 00:34:52,741 Speaker 1: carry weapons in the UK and they don't have all 693 00:34:52,781 --> 00:34:55,622 Speaker 1: of that intel. The part that I think he's got 694 00:34:55,661 --> 00:34:58,861 Speaker 1: a point about is that he was born as the 695 00:34:58,862 --> 00:35:00,821 Speaker 1: son of the king. And what's interesting to me is 696 00:35:00,822 --> 00:35:03,822 Speaker 1: he never says that, but he implies it. He basically says, 697 00:35:03,982 --> 00:35:06,221 Speaker 1: I was born into this. So the fact that he's 698 00:35:06,261 --> 00:35:09,542 Speaker 1: not doing royal duties anymore and they've moved to the US, 699 00:35:09,542 --> 00:35:13,502 Speaker 1: he's still the son of the king and that can't change. 700 00:35:13,582 --> 00:35:15,062 Speaker 1: And that wasn't something that he chose. 701 00:35:15,181 --> 00:35:17,741 Speaker 3: Yeah, he never chose that he was born into it 702 00:35:17,781 --> 00:35:20,062 Speaker 3: and that will follow him until the day that he dies. 703 00:35:20,102 --> 00:35:21,982 Speaker 3: And he says that him and his family have been 704 00:35:21,982 --> 00:35:25,742 Speaker 3: subjected to well documented neo Nazi and extremist threats, including 705 00:35:25,741 --> 00:35:28,861 Speaker 3: from al Qaeda, and you know, people talk about his 706 00:35:28,902 --> 00:35:32,022 Speaker 3: privilege and not acknowledging his privilege. His mother was killed, 707 00:35:32,022 --> 00:35:33,741 Speaker 3: like his mother died in a way that was very, 708 00:35:33,822 --> 00:35:36,901 Speaker 3: very traumatic for him, and I think that that's something. 709 00:35:36,701 --> 00:35:39,221 Speaker 1: Because of private security, because there was a drunk driver, 710 00:35:39,462 --> 00:35:40,902 Speaker 1: because they didn't know what they would do. 711 00:35:41,142 --> 00:35:43,462 Speaker 3: I think that the emotions. This is a man who 712 00:35:43,462 --> 00:35:46,862 Speaker 3: has just lost a very important court case that clearly 713 00:35:46,902 --> 00:35:49,942 Speaker 3: mattered a lot to him. He's angry, he feels aggrieved, 714 00:35:49,982 --> 00:35:54,942 Speaker 3: he wants justice, and I can appreciate and have empathy 715 00:35:54,982 --> 00:36:00,381 Speaker 3: for all of those feelings alongside wanting reconciliation. He's right 716 00:36:00,462 --> 00:36:03,301 Speaker 3: that one day, of course, King Charles is going to 717 00:36:03,382 --> 00:36:06,902 Speaker 3: die and they're not going to be able to repair 718 00:36:06,982 --> 00:36:10,781 Speaker 3: this broken relationship. But in wanting justice and in speaking out, 719 00:36:10,781 --> 00:36:12,902 Speaker 3: that's obviously it's causing great. 720 00:36:13,582 --> 00:36:15,462 Speaker 2: There is no way, and he says it in this interview. 721 00:36:15,502 --> 00:36:17,702 Speaker 2: He says, they're mad with me because I wrote a book. Yes, 722 00:36:17,902 --> 00:36:19,742 Speaker 2: they are mad with you because he wrote a book, 723 00:36:19,902 --> 00:36:23,301 Speaker 2: but for many other reasons too. How many ways do 724 00:36:23,382 --> 00:36:27,022 Speaker 2: you reject your family and criticize your family and accuse 725 00:36:27,062 --> 00:36:29,142 Speaker 2: them of some of the worst things you could accuse 726 00:36:29,181 --> 00:36:31,502 Speaker 2: a person of not loving their son, not protecting their son, 727 00:36:31,582 --> 00:36:33,741 Speaker 2: throwing you under the bus, doing all these things that 728 00:36:33,741 --> 00:36:35,942 Speaker 2: obviously we don't hear the other side of this story 729 00:36:36,102 --> 00:36:38,301 Speaker 2: because they haven't written their books about it, which that's 730 00:36:38,342 --> 00:36:41,622 Speaker 2: not what royals do. Yeah, but now I'm not a royalist, 731 00:36:41,741 --> 00:36:43,462 Speaker 2: let's be clear. It's not that I'm like, oh, he's 732 00:36:43,502 --> 00:36:45,982 Speaker 2: not behaving like a royal. I just think it is 733 00:36:46,261 --> 00:36:51,422 Speaker 2: unbelievably misguided to just constantly be winging and winging and 734 00:36:51,462 --> 00:36:54,301 Speaker 2: winging about this when he could pay for the best 735 00:36:54,302 --> 00:36:56,701 Speaker 2: private security in the world, and he could also have 736 00:36:56,741 --> 00:36:59,502 Speaker 2: the royal security when he comes on royal duties. 737 00:37:01,382 --> 00:37:03,742 Speaker 1: Not when he goes there. But I mean, his argument 738 00:37:03,781 --> 00:37:06,462 Speaker 1: also is that he's given thirty five years of service, 739 00:37:07,181 --> 00:37:09,142 Speaker 1: including two tools of duty. Now the two tools of 740 00:37:09,221 --> 00:37:11,462 Speaker 1: duty is different thing. I mean, he is a serviceman, 741 00:37:11,502 --> 00:37:14,261 Speaker 1: he went to Afghanistan, but that doesn't entitle you to 742 00:37:14,302 --> 00:37:17,981 Speaker 1: secure to security rights who don't have no exactly veterans don't. 743 00:37:18,022 --> 00:37:19,941 Speaker 1: But a lot of people have said, well, thirty five 744 00:37:19,982 --> 00:37:22,502 Speaker 1: years of what living in palaces and having a very 745 00:37:22,502 --> 00:37:25,341 Speaker 1: indulged life and not having to do that much to 746 00:37:25,382 --> 00:37:28,661 Speaker 1: earn it. But what I see when I watch that, 747 00:37:28,781 --> 00:37:31,582 Speaker 1: it's really typical of some people that I say online 748 00:37:31,862 --> 00:37:37,221 Speaker 1: who claim to be victims and then they do things 749 00:37:37,382 --> 00:37:40,421 Speaker 1: that ensures that they will be attacked and that their 750 00:37:40,502 --> 00:37:44,181 Speaker 1: victim status feels more justified, you know, so that they 751 00:37:44,221 --> 00:37:48,341 Speaker 1: almost like constantly retraumatize himself. So the story he tells 752 00:37:48,422 --> 00:37:51,861 Speaker 1: himself is that his family have rejected him, and he's 753 00:37:51,942 --> 00:37:55,062 Speaker 1: the spare. Literally he's the spare. His brother's going to 754 00:37:55,062 --> 00:37:57,221 Speaker 1: be the king, his dad's already the king, and they 755 00:37:57,221 --> 00:38:01,341 Speaker 1: don't care about him. And then he keeps doing these things, 756 00:38:01,342 --> 00:38:03,622 Speaker 1: like he said, I wanted to keep serving, they wouldn't 757 00:38:03,701 --> 00:38:08,062 Speaker 1: let me. He sounds very childish in the way that 758 00:38:08,302 --> 00:38:10,502 Speaker 1: he's My old therapy would have said, how old do 759 00:38:10,502 --> 00:38:11,181 Speaker 1: you feel right now? 760 00:38:11,221 --> 00:38:11,461 Speaker 4: Pet? 761 00:38:11,622 --> 00:38:14,062 Speaker 1: Yes, But he sounds like a little child going it's 762 00:38:14,062 --> 00:38:16,341 Speaker 1: not fair. Daddy doesn't love me as much as he 763 00:38:16,382 --> 00:38:16,982 Speaker 1: loves William. 764 00:38:17,062 --> 00:38:19,381 Speaker 2: That's exactly what he sounds like. And yet he's made 765 00:38:19,422 --> 00:38:22,181 Speaker 2: a whole documentary series about his mental health. You know, 766 00:38:22,221 --> 00:38:24,261 Speaker 2: we've read about the amount of therapy he's doing and 767 00:38:24,302 --> 00:38:26,582 Speaker 2: how happy he is doing what he's doing. Right now, 768 00:38:26,622 --> 00:38:30,781 Speaker 2: it's like, just shush, just stop throwing rocks at these 769 00:38:30,862 --> 00:38:33,661 Speaker 2: people who have they have no choices in their situation. 770 00:38:33,741 --> 00:38:35,741 Speaker 2: Either the King was born into his role William was 771 00:38:35,741 --> 00:38:37,821 Speaker 2: born into his. They're trying to do the best they 772 00:38:37,862 --> 00:38:40,622 Speaker 2: can while Harry throws rocks at them from every angle 773 00:38:40,781 --> 00:38:43,981 Speaker 2: all the time. Of course, I don't think that he's 774 00:38:44,062 --> 00:38:46,661 Speaker 2: overstating the danger to your point, Jesse, I don't think 775 00:38:46,701 --> 00:38:50,221 Speaker 2: that like he absolutely would be a very high risk 776 00:38:50,582 --> 00:38:52,701 Speaker 2: out in the world. But I just think that the 777 00:38:52,781 --> 00:38:55,821 Speaker 2: idea that the public should pay for it, even though 778 00:38:55,902 --> 00:38:59,382 Speaker 2: I no longer work in a public role, is just 779 00:38:59,542 --> 00:39:00,741 Speaker 2: intensely miscarded. 780 00:39:01,102 --> 00:39:05,022 Speaker 3: I reckon that his anger is saying, Dad, King of England, 781 00:39:05,502 --> 00:39:08,502 Speaker 3: you had me, you knew exactly what you were doing 782 00:39:08,502 --> 00:39:11,622 Speaker 3: when you had two sons, and you owe me protection. 783 00:39:11,701 --> 00:39:13,502 Speaker 3: My dad should look after me. I think that's what 784 00:39:13,542 --> 00:39:13,941 Speaker 3: he's saying. 785 00:39:14,342 --> 00:39:17,421 Speaker 2: We will be arguing about Prince Harry out louders off 786 00:39:17,462 --> 00:39:19,821 Speaker 2: Mike for some time today. I can feel it in 787 00:39:19,862 --> 00:39:22,981 Speaker 2: my waters. Anyway. A massive thank you for being here 788 00:39:23,022 --> 00:39:25,661 Speaker 2: with us on this Monday. We love having you with us. 789 00:39:25,741 --> 00:39:28,022 Speaker 2: A massive thanks to to our fabulous team for putting 790 00:39:28,022 --> 00:39:28,662 Speaker 2: the show together. 791 00:39:28,781 --> 00:39:30,941 Speaker 1: Thanks for having us in Perth. Perth, Yes, and. 792 00:39:30,902 --> 00:39:32,181 Speaker 3: We will see you soon Brisbane. 793 00:39:32,542 --> 00:39:37,782 Speaker 1: Why why shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening. 794 00:39:37,942 --> 00:39:40,181 Speaker 1: If you love the show and want to support us 795 00:39:40,261 --> 00:39:43,102 Speaker 1: as well, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best 796 00:39:43,102 --> 00:39:44,902 Speaker 1: way to do so. There is a link in the 797 00:39:44,942 --> 00:39:45,862 Speaker 1: episode description