WEBVTT - Jackie-O [Part 1]: The Addiction That Almost Ended Her 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.925 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:18.525 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:19.525 --> 0:00:21.285 You have to be quite calculated. 0:00:21.445 --> 0:00:21.645 You know. 0:00:21.805 --> 0:00:24.045 You might go out to dinner and then you're like, Okay, 0:00:24.085 --> 0:00:26.005 how many pills do I need? Where do I hide them? 0:00:26.005 --> 0:00:28.965 If someone says, oh, can I borrow your lipstick and 0:00:29.005 --> 0:00:32.245 they open your bag, you immediately panic, thinking, shit, are 0:00:32.285 --> 0:00:34.485 they going to see these pills in there? 0:00:44.045 --> 0:00:46.725 From MoMA Mia, you're listening to No Filter. I'm mea 0:00:46.765 --> 0:00:50.085 friedman and it is pretty unusual for me to interview 0:00:50.125 --> 0:00:52.685 the same person twice within the space of a year. 0:00:52.725 --> 0:00:54.205 I don't think it's ever happened before. 0:00:54.685 --> 0:00:56.805 But the last time I sat down with Jackie O, 0:00:57.525 --> 0:01:01.565 one half of the most successful radio duo in Australian history, 0:01:02.165 --> 0:01:04.765 she had a secret not just from me, but from 0:01:04.765 --> 0:01:08.805 almost everyone in her life. Her friends, her colleagues, the 0:01:08.925 --> 0:01:12.005 men she'd begun dating after her divorce from the father 0:01:12.085 --> 0:01:16.325 of her daughter Kitty, even from her co host Kyle Sandalance. 0:01:17.445 --> 0:01:20.885 Nobody knew that Jackie O was addicted to pills and 0:01:20.965 --> 0:01:25.805 alcohol and had been for years. The story they thought 0:01:25.845 --> 0:01:27.005 they knew is. 0:01:26.965 --> 0:01:28.925 That she'd lost a whole lot of weight. 0:01:29.085 --> 0:01:32.005 Because she was on a zeenpic or because she'd had surgery. 0:01:32.565 --> 0:01:35.205 That's what the gossip site said, and that's how the 0:01:35.325 --> 0:01:39.325 room is wet. But everyone missed the real story, which 0:01:39.405 --> 0:01:43.405 was so much bigger and deeper and more sad than 0:01:43.445 --> 0:01:46.925 you would expect from someone who, from the outside anyways, 0:01:46.965 --> 0:01:53.285 seemed so successful and so powerful and so glamorous. When 0:01:53.325 --> 0:01:56.605 I last spoke to Jackie, it was a great conversation. 0:01:56.725 --> 0:02:00.845 She was her usual down to earth self, deprecating, no bullshit, 0:02:01.165 --> 0:02:05.245 funny self, despite having just signed a new ten year 0:02:05.285 --> 0:02:08.525 contract for her radio show with Kyle that was worth 0:02:08.605 --> 0:02:12.005 a reported one hundred million dollars. We spoke about that 0:02:12.485 --> 0:02:15.045 on that episode, and we spoke about Kyle. But today 0:02:15.045 --> 0:02:18.405 we're not talking about those things, not about money, not 0:02:18.525 --> 0:02:22.285 about Kyle. Today we're talking about the secret that Jackie 0:02:22.365 --> 0:02:25.085 has only just shared with the world in her memoir 0:02:25.245 --> 0:02:30.365 called Suitably The Whole Truth. And today she also has 0:02:30.405 --> 0:02:33.965 someone sitting beside her in the studio because Jemma O'Neil 0:02:34.205 --> 0:02:37.725 is not only Jackie's best friend and her manager and 0:02:37.805 --> 0:02:41.445 her business partner, she's the one who Jackie called when 0:02:41.445 --> 0:02:44.685 she hit rock bottom on the darkest day of her life, 0:02:45.445 --> 0:02:48.645 and to understand the story of Jackie's addiction and recovery 0:02:48.805 --> 0:02:51.245 from the inside. I knew that I wanted to hear 0:02:51.325 --> 0:02:54.005 Jemma's point of view as well. So let's jump in. 0:02:54.765 --> 0:02:56.325 I should start at the beginning, but I want to 0:02:56.325 --> 0:02:58.605 start in the middle, and I want to get my 0:02:58.765 --> 0:03:02.365 timing right. There was a weekend in I think twenty 0:03:02.445 --> 0:03:06.005 twenty two where there is a series of phone calls 0:03:06.565 --> 0:03:10.845 that changed your life, Jack, and then your life Gemma. 0:03:11.525 --> 0:03:13.925 The first phone call came to you Jack on a 0:03:13.965 --> 0:03:18.885 Sunday morning from someone telling you that your life had 0:03:18.965 --> 0:03:21.645 changed in a big way. Can you tell me about 0:03:21.725 --> 0:03:25.165 where you were when that phone call arrived, like physically, 0:03:25.925 --> 0:03:27.405 how are you feeling? What were you doing? 0:03:28.685 --> 0:03:33.165 I think it was just a normal Sunday morning. 0:03:33.005 --> 0:03:34.885 Which was what for you at that time. 0:03:35.005 --> 0:03:38.005 So Gemma had been around the night before with another 0:03:38.045 --> 0:03:42.445 friend of ours, Kim, and so we'd been drinking and having, 0:03:42.645 --> 0:03:45.645 you know, a great girl's night, and I think I 0:03:45.645 --> 0:03:48.565 would have finished up around two am, and then I 0:03:48.605 --> 0:03:51.525 think around the time that I have no idea what 0:03:51.645 --> 0:03:55.005 time I got up the next day actually, and it 0:03:55.045 --> 0:03:59.245 was just probably me, you know, eating, drinking, watching TV. 0:04:00.165 --> 0:04:03.605 And then I got a phone call from the person 0:04:03.685 --> 0:04:06.765 who was supplying me with the painkillers, the only person 0:04:07.485 --> 0:04:09.365 who has ever done that. 0:04:09.445 --> 0:04:11.885 I've never been able to access them before like that. 0:04:13.365 --> 0:04:17.525 And that person called me to say that they couldn't 0:04:17.525 --> 0:04:19.885 do it anymore because they had been busted. 0:04:20.845 --> 0:04:21.285 I was. 0:04:21.605 --> 0:04:25.045 I took the call outside and I just remember thinking, 0:04:25.085 --> 0:04:26.165 oh my god, this is it. 0:04:26.285 --> 0:04:29.325 This is the moment I feared. What am I going 0:04:29.365 --> 0:04:29.645 to do? 0:04:29.925 --> 0:04:32.925 You know, all these thoughts run through your head of 0:04:33.045 --> 0:04:36.245 like oh shit, now what like, you know, how am 0:04:36.245 --> 0:04:37.765 I going to get out of this? How am I 0:04:37.765 --> 0:04:41.165 going to taper off this kind of amount that I'm 0:04:41.205 --> 0:04:42.205 taking of medication? 0:04:42.885 --> 0:04:44.125 How long had you been taking it for? 0:04:44.365 --> 0:04:46.925 Well, I would say it was the beginning of COVID 0:04:47.085 --> 0:04:50.685 was when it got really bad. So it originally started 0:04:50.925 --> 0:04:54.645 about fifteen years prior, when I had been prescribed a 0:04:54.645 --> 0:04:58.085 really strong painkiller and don't which people know in Australia 0:04:58.165 --> 0:05:02.285 is like oxy content in the strongest painkiller. 0:05:02.325 --> 0:05:05.485 I think that, you kid, it's no, you can't get 0:05:05.485 --> 0:05:07.645 it over counter. It's it's usually you get prescribed it 0:05:07.685 --> 0:05:10.365 after an operation or you for endometriotis. 0:05:10.605 --> 0:05:12.645 Yeah, so I had it for the endometriosis. 0:05:12.685 --> 0:05:15.285 They'd given me other painkillers that weren't very effective, and 0:05:15.565 --> 0:05:19.205 it was really severe pain at the time. And yeah, 0:05:19.325 --> 0:05:23.005 it's it's very difficult to get end down rightly, so 0:05:23.325 --> 0:05:27.405 in this country, and so that's where it started. And 0:05:27.445 --> 0:05:32.685 then I think because you couldn't even access something like that, 0:05:33.365 --> 0:05:35.885 you couldn't just even go doctor shopping for it, because 0:05:35.885 --> 0:05:39.565 doctors are extremely aware that there are people out there 0:05:39.605 --> 0:05:42.445 like me who are abusing it, and so. 0:05:42.485 --> 0:05:44.445 Can you explain doctor shopping. One of the things I 0:05:44.525 --> 0:05:49.605 found most interesting in your book was getting inside addiction, 0:05:49.965 --> 0:05:52.965 and one of the things that came across so much 0:05:53.285 --> 0:05:55.565 was how time consuming it is. 0:05:55.725 --> 0:05:57.685 Time consuming so time like. 0:05:57.645 --> 0:06:01.165 There's the money, there's all of those things, but it like, 0:06:01.365 --> 0:06:04.525 what was the process of getting the amount of drugs 0:06:04.525 --> 0:06:06.765 that you needed before you found this person who could 0:06:06.765 --> 0:06:07.285 supply it. 0:06:07.485 --> 0:06:11.245 Well, See, the thing is I got the intake increased 0:06:11.365 --> 0:06:15.405 because of the person I ran into and because I 0:06:15.525 --> 0:06:20.725 had access to it freely, it then increased tenfold very quickly. 0:06:21.245 --> 0:06:24.925 So originally when I was prescribed the end domee, I 0:06:25.005 --> 0:06:27.685 really wasn't taking it to it. It was it was 0:06:27.845 --> 0:06:31.805 just one extra here and there when I was. 0:06:32.365 --> 0:06:34.845 A lot to treat pain, to just take the edge. 0:06:34.645 --> 0:06:37.165 Of Obviously it was originally to treat the pain, and 0:06:37.205 --> 0:06:39.845 then it became like, oh, i'm having a really shit day, 0:06:39.885 --> 0:06:41.965 I might take one of those because they give me 0:06:42.005 --> 0:06:46.005 a really nice feeling. And so doctor shopping for something 0:06:46.125 --> 0:06:50.845 like that is really awful. I can't even begin to 0:06:50.885 --> 0:06:54.405 tell you. The whole thing feels just dirty, and you're 0:06:55.165 --> 0:06:57.925 you know, you're lying. You know you're doing something wrong, 0:06:58.205 --> 0:07:00.045 and you're not stopping yourself from doing it. 0:07:00.085 --> 0:07:01.285 So you're famous. 0:07:01.445 --> 0:07:04.485 How do you doctor shop when you're Jackie O and 0:07:04.525 --> 0:07:10.885 you're that recognizable in waiting rooms? Yeahs by receptionists. 0:07:11.685 --> 0:07:14.445 Yeah, well, you go far and wide. That's the thing. 0:07:14.525 --> 0:07:17.565 You try not to go to a doctor's surgery in 0:07:17.605 --> 0:07:20.725 the same suburb too, in the same because who knows 0:07:20.765 --> 0:07:23.125 if those people know each other, and we'll say, oh, 0:07:23.205 --> 0:07:25.365 Jackie O came into the doctor surgery today, and the 0:07:25.405 --> 0:07:28.125 other one goes, yeah, me too. You know, alarm bells 0:07:28.165 --> 0:07:31.885 would go off. So it's incredibly devious behavior. 0:07:32.045 --> 0:07:33.925 And what did you have to say to the doctors? 0:07:34.685 --> 0:07:35.885 Would I would tell the truth? 0:07:36.045 --> 0:07:39.085 But you know, it was it was as though I'd 0:07:39.085 --> 0:07:41.205 also said that story to the other doctor, so I 0:07:41.205 --> 0:07:43.845 was getting twice the amount I needed. So it wasn't 0:07:43.885 --> 0:07:46.285 that I was lying about the pain. I was telling 0:07:46.405 --> 0:07:48.365 them about the end of metriosis. 0:07:48.645 --> 0:07:49.805 And yeah, a. 0:07:49.725 --> 0:07:52.085 Lot of the time, every now and again a doctor 0:07:52.125 --> 0:07:54.085 would go, I don't feel comfortable prescribing this. 0:07:54.365 --> 0:07:56.525 And did you feel so ashamed when that happened? 0:07:56.605 --> 0:07:57.325 I really did. 0:07:57.525 --> 0:08:00.245 Yeah, it was That was the worst part is the 0:08:00.285 --> 0:08:01.685 shame that comes with it. 0:08:01.885 --> 0:08:05.125 How do you in that conversation, It's like, oh, okay. 0:08:04.885 --> 0:08:08.205 Yeah, you just exactly. You just go okay, and they go, 0:08:08.245 --> 0:08:09.765 I'll prescribe you this instead. 0:08:11.045 --> 0:08:14.325 And one time because you became worried that there would 0:08:14.325 --> 0:08:17.765 be some central record. Yeah, so you knew you couldn't 0:08:17.765 --> 0:08:20.525 give a false name, so you gave a false birthdate. 0:08:21.005 --> 0:08:22.085 When did that go wrong? 0:08:23.885 --> 0:08:27.565 I was just writing down whatever birthdate came to my mind. 0:08:27.645 --> 0:08:29.365 When they give you the form to go and sit 0:08:29.405 --> 0:08:31.885 down and write out your details. A couple of numbers, Yeah, 0:08:31.885 --> 0:08:34.645 pick a couple of numbers. Any numbers doesn't matter. Actually 0:08:34.645 --> 0:08:38.845 it does matter when it's February. Because I wrote February thirty. 0:08:40.645 --> 0:08:43.165 I got busted. I went to the receptionist. She's typing 0:08:43.165 --> 0:08:45.765 it in. She goes, wait, so your birthday is February 0:08:45.845 --> 0:08:48.605 thirty and I no, she didn't even say February. 0:08:48.645 --> 0:08:50.965 She went the thirtieth of the second. So I didn't 0:08:51.125 --> 0:08:54.845 admit and I was like yeah, and oh god, again 0:08:55.125 --> 0:08:56.565 the shame, the shame. 0:08:57.485 --> 0:08:58.765 So oh. 0:08:59.285 --> 0:09:02.285 That didn't last very long, the doctor shopping, because I 0:09:02.365 --> 0:09:05.005 actually just thought, this is, this is you got to 0:09:05.165 --> 0:09:07.565 stop like you're you're going to get in trouble here, 0:09:07.645 --> 0:09:10.965 you know, and you're also going to where does it end? 0:09:11.205 --> 0:09:12.765 You know? It will it will? 0:09:12.845 --> 0:09:15.445 You'll want more and more if you keep taking more 0:09:15.485 --> 0:09:18.965 than you should. So thankfully, I think due to that 0:09:19.645 --> 0:09:23.885 lack of access, it stopped me from having a full 0:09:23.925 --> 0:09:27.245 blown addiction back then, and so it didn't really this 0:09:28.005 --> 0:09:31.085 oh well that was let me think I would have 0:09:31.125 --> 0:09:35.365 been about it would have been maybe late twenties, early thirties, 0:09:35.445 --> 0:09:39.325 I think when the end on one happened. And again 0:09:39.605 --> 0:09:42.365 I wouldn't have called that an addiction. I think that 0:09:42.445 --> 0:09:45.125 was an abuse. It was abusing something and taking it 0:09:45.165 --> 0:09:49.205 a little bit recreationally, but not an addiction at that point, 0:09:49.325 --> 0:09:53.085 although obviously the addictive behavior was coming out and so 0:09:53.245 --> 0:09:58.045 it wasn't until probably twenty nineteen, I think late twenty eighteen, 0:09:58.085 --> 0:09:59.565 twenty nineteen, so. 0:09:59.685 --> 0:10:02.325 I had access to it and used it as a 0:10:02.365 --> 0:10:03.005 coping mech. 0:10:02.965 --> 0:10:05.765 Quite a few years later, and it's years in between. 0:10:06.085 --> 0:10:07.925 Were you doctor shopping all of that time? 0:10:08.005 --> 0:10:12.005 No? No, no, no, So you did stop? I did. Yeah. 0:10:12.485 --> 0:10:14.925 It was almost like that was so much effort and 0:10:15.525 --> 0:10:19.845 so much embarrassment came with that, and humiliation because even 0:10:19.845 --> 0:10:22.925 sometimes when you were prescribed it, you could tell the 0:10:23.005 --> 0:10:23.685 doctor was. 0:10:23.645 --> 0:10:26.645 Almost looking at you like you were I used to 0:10:26.645 --> 0:10:26.925 think to. 0:10:26.925 --> 0:10:29.205 Myself, God, he's looking at me like I'm a junkie, 0:10:29.525 --> 0:10:31.605 you know, And I thought, but you are a junkie 0:10:31.645 --> 0:10:34.845 right now in this situation, you are pretty much like 0:10:35.365 --> 0:10:38.525 I just thought. You know, it was too humiliating, and 0:10:38.765 --> 0:10:43.205 I thankfully stop that because I can't. Doctor shopping is 0:10:43.285 --> 0:10:45.205 incredibly time consuming. 0:10:46.125 --> 0:10:47.485 Is that when you started drinking more? 0:10:47.805 --> 0:10:51.365 No? Not even no, I didn't. Actually I never really 0:10:51.445 --> 0:10:55.765 had a problem with drinking. I think, I would say, 0:10:56.645 --> 0:10:59.045 you know, I guess it depends how you define a 0:10:59.085 --> 0:11:03.085 problem with drinking. So I never really liked alcohol at all. 0:11:03.565 --> 0:11:07.685 Kitty was born, and then suddenly it was a lot 0:11:07.765 --> 0:11:11.685 was happening with my mad marriage and then a child 0:11:11.725 --> 0:11:14.645 on top of that, and then we obviously refused any help. 0:11:14.685 --> 0:11:16.565 We didn't get anyone on board, so it was just 0:11:16.645 --> 0:11:19.765 Leah and I, which is fine, you know, it's absolutely manageable. 0:11:21.165 --> 0:11:23.805 And I think because the problems we were having, I 0:11:23.805 --> 0:11:26.325 don't know, I just felt like, oh, suddenly I was 0:11:26.565 --> 0:11:29.285 wanting a glass of wine as soon as she went 0:11:29.325 --> 0:11:32.685 to bed and so. But again, it wasn't that I 0:11:32.845 --> 0:11:36.605 was drinking too much during that period, but I absolutely 0:11:36.805 --> 0:11:40.285 did have one or two every single day for the 0:11:40.325 --> 0:11:44.485 next thirteen years, or not thirteen actually because I went 0:11:44.485 --> 0:11:46.365 to rehab when she was seven days a week, but 0:11:46.485 --> 0:11:49.765 seven days a week and whilst I wasn't getting drunk 0:11:50.605 --> 0:11:53.565 when I was in rehab, and went in there thinking, oh, 0:11:53.645 --> 0:11:55.405 I'm not going to give up alcohol because I don't 0:11:55.405 --> 0:11:56.285 have a problem with that. 0:11:56.765 --> 0:12:00.445 Once I started writing down my relationship to. 0:12:00.405 --> 0:12:04.045 Alcohol, I thought, well, if I haven't had one day 0:12:04.245 --> 0:12:07.485 for the last ten eleven years without a glass of wine, 0:12:07.525 --> 0:12:10.485 then maybe there is a problem there. I mean, you 0:12:10.525 --> 0:12:13.605 don't have to be getting drunk every night and waking 0:12:13.725 --> 0:12:15.925 up and drinking alcohol first thing in the morning to 0:12:16.125 --> 0:12:18.525 have a problem with alcohol. And I think that's how 0:12:18.565 --> 0:12:20.765 I always identified it's. 0:12:20.565 --> 0:12:23.405 Like alcoholic adjacent, Yeah it is, or using it as 0:12:23.405 --> 0:12:23.765 a crutch. 0:12:23.845 --> 0:12:25.245 It's a dependency on it. 0:12:25.365 --> 0:12:29.125 Yeah, for sure, when you got that phone call and 0:12:29.205 --> 0:12:32.245 you think about how long had that person been in 0:12:32.285 --> 0:12:34.605 your life who was supplying you with the pills? 0:12:34.965 --> 0:12:37.925 Pretty much was soon as I ran into them is 0:12:37.965 --> 0:12:40.525 when it started. So twenty nineteen I think that was. 0:12:41.165 --> 0:12:44.045 And how would it work? Would you like text them? 0:12:44.085 --> 0:12:46.845 Because I imagine they were not doing the right thing 0:12:47.525 --> 0:12:50.525 and you were not doing the right thing, So how 0:12:50.565 --> 0:12:52.685 did you actually do it? Because the risk of being 0:12:52.725 --> 0:12:54.165 caught for both of you and the stakes for. 0:12:54.245 --> 0:12:57.205 High Yeah, I didn't think about that. It's almost like 0:12:57.245 --> 0:12:59.245 I didn't even want to think about that part. 0:12:59.445 --> 0:13:03.365 It's actual because it wasn't like you weren't scoring heroine 0:13:03.405 --> 0:13:05.845 then you weren't. I think it was like these were 0:13:05.925 --> 0:13:08.645 just over the counter painkillers exactly. 0:13:08.725 --> 0:13:12.045 I thought, well, these are legal, so therefore it's not 0:13:12.085 --> 0:13:12.765 that big a deal. 0:13:13.005 --> 0:13:14.125 That's what I told myself. 0:13:14.805 --> 0:13:17.725 And did you feel shame when you spoke to this 0:13:17.765 --> 0:13:20.085 person and you kept saying, I need like did you 0:13:20.125 --> 0:13:22.085 get them by the box? Did you go and pick 0:13:22.125 --> 0:13:23.245 them up from their house? 0:13:23.445 --> 0:13:27.805 Like, no, I would, I would meet them, and it 0:13:27.885 --> 0:13:31.805 was actually, yeah, so they I would meet them. I 0:13:31.805 --> 0:13:34.685 don't want to give away who this person is, but 0:13:34.725 --> 0:13:37.645 it's not. It's not like this kind of dodgy drug 0:13:37.685 --> 0:13:39.925 deal in the middle. I'm not, you know, sitting in 0:13:39.965 --> 0:13:43.685 their car and exchanging It wasn't quite like that. 0:13:44.525 --> 0:13:47.205 But no, but it was like that. It just didn't 0:13:47.405 --> 0:13:48.725 feel like that exactly. 0:13:49.005 --> 0:13:53.485 Yeah. It wasn't like, you know, necessarily drug dealer type. 0:13:53.565 --> 0:13:56.965 It was a situation. It was a different situation. 0:13:57.165 --> 0:13:59.045 When you think about that person, how do you feel 0:13:59.085 --> 0:14:01.485 about them? 0:14:01.885 --> 0:14:08.565 That's a good question actually, because I know my friend 0:14:08.685 --> 0:14:13.125 Gemma is angry with that person, but I am not 0:14:13.605 --> 0:14:16.765 because I put them in that situation and I know 0:14:16.925 --> 0:14:20.965 they gave me an extraordinarily large amount of medication. 0:14:21.885 --> 0:14:23.605 But I can't turn around at the end of it 0:14:23.645 --> 0:14:26.765 all and go, well, you shouldn't have done that. I 0:14:26.805 --> 0:14:27.125 don't know. 0:14:27.205 --> 0:14:30.725 I just I don't know what I was lying to 0:14:30.805 --> 0:14:32.925 them as well. I mean, I wasn't saying it was 0:14:32.965 --> 0:14:34.605 all for me. I was saying, oh, yeah, I've got 0:14:34.605 --> 0:14:36.525 some people at work who need you know, still knocks 0:14:36.525 --> 0:14:38.245 as well because we all work crazy hours. 0:14:38.325 --> 0:14:41.485 Okay, so I was lying to them all. 0:14:41.485 --> 0:14:45.285 Slight different with the many packets of neuropan plus and 0:14:45.405 --> 0:14:46.725 painkillers that you needed though. 0:14:46.845 --> 0:14:49.645 Yeah, yeah, it was just because that's stuff you have 0:14:49.725 --> 0:14:52.445 to go to a doctor and get prescribed it, and 0:14:53.525 --> 0:14:55.805 you know that used to be an over the counter 0:14:55.885 --> 0:14:59.285 situation and you know they could access it and they 0:14:59.285 --> 0:15:01.765 were like, yeah, okay, no wors you know, I. 0:15:01.725 --> 0:15:04.765 Don't know do you have contact with them anymore? 0:15:04.885 --> 0:15:05.325 No? 0:15:05.325 --> 0:15:08.805 No, no, ever since that day? I think it was. 0:15:08.885 --> 0:15:11.925 That was it, you know, was done. 0:15:12.845 --> 0:15:15.205 The next fine call you made after that. 0:15:15.165 --> 0:15:19.005 One was to who Gemma my best friend? 0:15:19.525 --> 0:15:20.445 What did you say to her? 0:15:20.805 --> 0:15:22.645 So? Why? Well? 0:15:22.765 --> 0:15:26.205 I thought I needed someone who I knew could A 0:15:26.445 --> 0:15:29.965 help me and b wouldn't judge me and was close 0:15:30.005 --> 0:15:33.485 to me that I could trust. And Jemma knew everything 0:15:33.645 --> 0:15:36.365 about me except that you know, she was the one 0:15:36.405 --> 0:15:39.605 I would always talk to about any problem I had 0:15:39.645 --> 0:15:40.965 in life and vice versa. 0:15:41.525 --> 0:15:45.165 Interestingly, in the book, you talk about your assistant who's 0:15:45.205 --> 0:15:48.525 been with you for ten years, Brett, who sounds amazing. Yeah, 0:15:48.525 --> 0:15:52.605 and she knows everything about you, yes, including this. She's 0:15:52.645 --> 0:15:55.085 the one person or the other person besides the person 0:15:55.085 --> 0:15:56.045 who was supplying you with it. 0:15:56.325 --> 0:15:56.925 Who did know. 0:15:57.045 --> 0:15:59.405 And she would sometimes leave notes around the house. I 0:15:59.485 --> 0:16:02.085 know because she would see all the empty blister packs 0:16:02.125 --> 0:16:06.085 and she would witnessed you, you know, day and night, 0:16:07.245 --> 0:16:09.365 and she'd watched you deteriorate along with other pe. 0:16:11.085 --> 0:16:11.605 Why didn't you. 0:16:11.605 --> 0:16:12.925 Call her first? 0:16:14.765 --> 0:16:17.125 I don't feel I want to burden her with something 0:16:17.245 --> 0:16:20.285 like that. I think with Britta and I, she is 0:16:20.805 --> 0:16:23.005 like a big We always laugh. She's my big sister 0:16:23.125 --> 0:16:25.685 because she's the protector, and she's the one that's always 0:16:25.965 --> 0:16:32.485 trying to will in those days help me and I. 0:16:32.525 --> 0:16:37.125 But she always has kept it professional. You know. She's 0:16:37.165 --> 0:16:40.725 always very careful not to cross the line where we 0:16:41.445 --> 0:16:44.965 become best friends, and she's she's always mindful of that 0:16:44.965 --> 0:16:47.525 that there's a line like we don't cross. We're friends, 0:16:47.565 --> 0:16:51.405 we're like sisters, but also we're not hanging out socializing 0:16:51.445 --> 0:16:54.925 every single day. And I feel and so there has 0:16:55.005 --> 0:16:58.045 been a certain level of professionalism with brittan Ie and 0:16:58.085 --> 0:16:58.925 our relationship. 0:17:00.325 --> 0:17:01.605 That must have been a big deal for her to 0:17:01.605 --> 0:17:02.445 write those letters. 0:17:02.525 --> 0:17:04.885 Oh absolutely, How did you feel when you saw them, 0:17:04.885 --> 0:17:07.005 because that was the first time you'd had a mirror 0:17:07.045 --> 0:17:07.765 held up to you. 0:17:07.885 --> 0:17:08.245 Yeah. 0:17:09.725 --> 0:17:12.485 Oh, I think when you're in and when you're in 0:17:12.525 --> 0:17:16.725 the middle of an addiction and someone does that to you, 0:17:16.725 --> 0:17:19.205 you don't sit there and go, oh my god, I 0:17:19.245 --> 0:17:22.085 feel so ashamed. I feel so this. Oh I really 0:17:22.125 --> 0:17:25.725 should get help. I can't believe she you just immediately 0:17:26.205 --> 0:17:28.645 don't think about that. Let's not think about that. It's 0:17:28.725 --> 0:17:32.085 just you just don't want denial, big denial. 0:17:32.365 --> 0:17:37.325 Yeah. 0:17:37.365 --> 0:17:40.085 After this short break, we hear from Gemma, who was 0:17:40.085 --> 0:17:43.165 on the other end of that phone call, and we find. 0:17:42.965 --> 0:17:44.285 Out what she did next. 0:17:47.405 --> 0:17:50.205 So you called Gemma because she's the closest person to you, 0:17:50.445 --> 0:17:52.565 and also she knows how to get shit done and 0:17:52.725 --> 0:17:56.085 sort shit out. Yeah, which brings me to you, jem 0:17:56.205 --> 0:17:59.965 and that weekend for you the night before when you'd 0:17:59.965 --> 0:18:03.405 been over at Jack's house. Yeap, what did you notice 0:18:03.565 --> 0:18:05.965 about her? And what had you noticed over what period 0:18:05.965 --> 0:18:07.005 of time leading up to that? 0:18:07.965 --> 0:18:10.845 I probably didn't notice much the night before, And in fact, 0:18:10.845 --> 0:18:12.205 we was saying this the other day. It was quite 0:18:12.205 --> 0:18:16.085 funny because I left earlier that night, which in nine sight, 0:18:16.405 --> 0:18:18.565 thank god I did, because I needed my wits about 0:18:18.605 --> 0:18:22.565 me the next day, it turned out. But I think 0:18:22.605 --> 0:18:25.885 I left it like nine or ten that that night before, 0:18:26.365 --> 0:18:28.485 and to be honest with you, there was nothing different 0:18:28.565 --> 0:18:30.925 that night as opposed to any other night that we 0:18:30.965 --> 0:18:33.365 would hang out or day we'd hang out. But the 0:18:33.485 --> 0:18:36.445 consistent thing that I saw was that there was a 0:18:36.565 --> 0:18:40.685 niggling feeling that something wasn't right. And I think that's 0:18:40.725 --> 0:18:43.005 why I got so upset when I found out, because 0:18:43.045 --> 0:18:45.405 I was angry at myself that I hadn't figured it out. 0:18:45.965 --> 0:18:50.525 But there was always an excuse that I thought, like, 0:18:50.605 --> 0:18:53.245 you know, whether it was Jack seemed really tired. Well, obviously, 0:18:53.285 --> 0:18:55.845 it turns out she was taking fourteen still knoxes a day, 0:18:55.885 --> 0:18:57.725 so of course she's going to be tired. But in 0:18:57.765 --> 0:19:00.405 my head, i'd see her be really sleepy and tired, 0:19:00.445 --> 0:19:04.165 and I'd think, well, she does breakfast hours and she's exhausted, 0:19:04.205 --> 0:19:08.445 and you know, ability, Yeah, And so there was always. 0:19:08.125 --> 0:19:09.965 Kind of a reason. 0:19:11.005 --> 0:19:13.005 Or I'd noticed that we'd go out for dinner and 0:19:13.045 --> 0:19:15.405 maybe we'd only had one or two glasses of wine 0:19:15.765 --> 0:19:18.205 and I'm obviously still fine, and Jack would seem like 0:19:18.245 --> 0:19:20.925 she was drunk, and I'd think, again, well, she. 0:19:20.805 --> 0:19:22.165 You know, she doesn't get a lot of sleep. 0:19:22.285 --> 0:19:25.005 So there was always this kind of I had this 0:19:25.245 --> 0:19:28.245 justification in a way in my head, and I was. 0:19:29.005 --> 0:19:30.845 I was at her all the time, like I was saying, 0:19:30.845 --> 0:19:32.405 something's not right, and I think we should take you 0:19:32.445 --> 0:19:32.965 to the doctor. 0:19:33.245 --> 0:19:36.445 Well, during that time, I think about six weeks, maybe 0:19:36.445 --> 0:19:41.525 even eight weeks prior I genuinely had gotten sick, had COVID. 0:19:41.725 --> 0:19:45.085 Then I think it was like a lung or chest infection. 0:19:45.245 --> 0:19:46.725 I just don't know what it was. But it was 0:19:46.845 --> 0:19:51.205 constant coughing, being lethargic. And so I was sick for 0:19:51.245 --> 0:19:55.045 this very long period of time, which I know was 0:19:55.085 --> 0:19:55.525 for you. 0:19:55.765 --> 0:19:57.565 Yeah, I should be getting better. 0:19:57.805 --> 0:20:00.605 Yeah, because nothing was changing, I thought something's not right here. 0:20:00.765 --> 0:20:05.805 But yeah, I guess I noticed small things, but it 0:20:05.925 --> 0:20:08.405 never ever occurred to me. 0:20:08.605 --> 0:20:10.005 That it would be it was. 0:20:10.525 --> 0:20:14.285 But also I was with Jack all the time, and 0:20:14.325 --> 0:20:17.165 she was very very good at hiding it, like there 0:20:17.245 --> 0:20:19.605 was no signs add It's a crafty. 0:20:19.165 --> 0:20:19.605 Aren't they? 0:20:20.445 --> 0:20:21.885 One hundred percent? Yeah? 0:20:21.925 --> 0:20:22.725