Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: You have to be quite calculated.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: You might go out to dinner and then you're like, Okay,
Speaker 4: how many pills do I need? Where do I hide them?
Speaker 4: If someone says, oh, can I borrow your lipstick and
Speaker 4: they open your bag, you immediately panic, thinking, shit, are
Speaker 4: they going to see these pills in there?
Speaker 5: From MoMA Mia, you're listening to No Filter. I'm mea
Speaker 5: friedman and it is pretty unusual for me to interview
Speaker 5: the same person twice within the space of a year.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's ever happened before.
Speaker 5: But the last time I sat down with Jackie O,
Speaker 5: one half of the most successful radio duo in Australian history,
Speaker 5: she had a secret not just from me, but from
Speaker 5: almost everyone in her life. Her friends, her colleagues, the
Speaker 5: men she'd begun dating after her divorce from the father
Speaker 5: of her daughter Kitty, even from her co host Kyle Sandalance.
Speaker 5: Nobody knew that Jackie O was addicted to pills and
Speaker 5: alcohol and had been for years. The story they thought
Speaker 5: they knew is.
Speaker 2: That she'd lost a whole lot of weight.
Speaker 5: Because she was on a zeenpic or because she'd had surgery.
Speaker 5: That's what the gossip site said, and that's how the
Speaker 5: room is wet. But everyone missed the real story, which
Speaker 5: was so much bigger and deeper and more sad than
Speaker 5: you would expect from someone who, from the outside anyways,
Speaker 5: seemed so successful and so powerful and so glamorous. When
Speaker 5: I last spoke to Jackie, it was a great conversation.
Speaker 5: She was her usual down to earth self, deprecating, no bullshit,
Speaker 5: funny self, despite having just signed a new ten year
Speaker 5: contract for her radio show with Kyle that was worth
Speaker 5: a reported one hundred million dollars. We spoke about that
Speaker 5: on that episode, and we spoke about Kyle. But today
Speaker 5: we're not talking about those things, not about money, not
Speaker 5: about Kyle. Today we're talking about the secret that Jackie
Speaker 5: has only just shared with the world in her memoir
Speaker 5: called Suitably The Whole Truth. And today she also has
Speaker 5: someone sitting beside her in the studio because Jemma O'Neil
Speaker 5: is not only Jackie's best friend and her manager and
Speaker 5: her business partner, she's the one who Jackie called when
Speaker 5: she hit rock bottom on the darkest day of her life,
Speaker 5: and to understand the story of Jackie's addiction and recovery
Speaker 5: from the inside. I knew that I wanted to hear
Speaker 5: Jemma's point of view as well. So let's jump in.
Speaker 5: I should start at the beginning, but I want to
Speaker 5: start in the middle, and I want to get my
Speaker 5: timing right. There was a weekend in I think twenty
Speaker 5: twenty two where there is a series of phone calls
Speaker 5: that changed your life, Jack, and then your life Gemma.
Speaker 5: The first phone call came to you Jack on a
Speaker 5: Sunday morning from someone telling you that your life had
Speaker 5: changed in a big way. Can you tell me about
Speaker 5: where you were when that phone call arrived, like physically,
Speaker 5: how are you feeling? What were you doing?
Speaker 1: I think it was just a normal Sunday morning.
Speaker 2: Which was what for you at that time.
Speaker 4: So Gemma had been around the night before with another
Speaker 4: friend of ours, Kim, and so we'd been drinking and having,
Speaker 4: you know, a great girl's night, and I think I
Speaker 4: would have finished up around two am, and then I
Speaker 4: think around the time that I have no idea what
Speaker 4: time I got up the next day actually, and it
Speaker 4: was just probably me, you know, eating, drinking, watching TV.
Speaker 4: And then I got a phone call from the person
Speaker 4: who was supplying me with the painkillers, the only person
Speaker 4: who has ever done that.
Speaker 1: I've never been able to access them before like that.
Speaker 4: And that person called me to say that they couldn't
Speaker 4: do it anymore because they had been busted.
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 4: I took the call outside and I just remember thinking,
Speaker 4: oh my god, this is it.
Speaker 1: This is the moment I feared. What am I going
Speaker 1: to do?
Speaker 4: You know, all these thoughts run through your head of
Speaker 4: like oh shit, now what like, you know, how am
Speaker 4: I going to get out of this? How am I
Speaker 4: going to taper off this kind of amount that I'm
Speaker 4: taking of medication?
Speaker 2: How long had you been taking it for?
Speaker 4: Well, I would say it was the beginning of COVID
Speaker 4: was when it got really bad. So it originally started
Speaker 4: about fifteen years prior, when I had been prescribed a
Speaker 4: really strong painkiller and don't which people know in Australia
Speaker 4: is like oxy content in the strongest painkiller.
Speaker 5: I think that, you kid, it's no, you can't get
Speaker 5: it over counter. It's it's usually you get prescribed it
Speaker 5: after an operation or you for endometriotis.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I had it for the endometriosis.
Speaker 4: They'd given me other painkillers that weren't very effective, and
Speaker 4: it was really severe pain at the time. And yeah,
Speaker 4: it's it's very difficult to get end down rightly, so
Speaker 4: in this country, and so that's where it started. And
Speaker 4: then I think because you couldn't even access something like that,
Speaker 4: you couldn't just even go doctor shopping for it, because
Speaker 4: doctors are extremely aware that there are people out there
Speaker 4: like me who are abusing it, and so.
Speaker 5: Can you explain doctor shopping. One of the things I
Speaker 5: found most interesting in your book was getting inside addiction,
Speaker 5: and one of the things that came across so much
Speaker 5: was how time consuming it is.
Speaker 1: Time consuming so time like.
Speaker 5: There's the money, there's all of those things, but it like,
Speaker 5: what was the process of getting the amount of drugs
Speaker 5: that you needed before you found this person who could
Speaker 5: supply it.
Speaker 4: Well, See, the thing is I got the intake increased
Speaker 4: because of the person I ran into and because I
Speaker 4: had access to it freely, it then increased tenfold very quickly.
Speaker 4: So originally when I was prescribed the end domee, I
Speaker 4: really wasn't taking it to it. It was it was
Speaker 4: just one extra here and there when I was.
Speaker 2: A lot to treat pain, to just take the edge.
Speaker 4: Of Obviously it was originally to treat the pain, and
Speaker 4: then it became like, oh, i'm having a really shit day,
Speaker 4: I might take one of those because they give me
Speaker 4: a really nice feeling. And so doctor shopping for something
Speaker 4: like that is really awful. I can't even begin to
Speaker 4: tell you. The whole thing feels just dirty, and you're
Speaker 4: you know, you're lying. You know you're doing something wrong,
Speaker 4: and you're not stopping yourself from doing it.
Speaker 2: So you're famous.
Speaker 5: How do you doctor shop when you're Jackie O and
Speaker 5: you're that recognizable in waiting rooms? Yeahs by receptionists.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you go far and wide. That's the thing.
Speaker 4: You try not to go to a doctor's surgery in
Speaker 4: the same suburb too, in the same because who knows
Speaker 4: if those people know each other, and we'll say, oh,
Speaker 4: Jackie O came into the doctor surgery today, and the
Speaker 4: other one goes, yeah, me too. You know, alarm bells
Speaker 4: would go off. So it's incredibly devious behavior.
Speaker 2: And what did you have to say to the doctors?
Speaker 1: Would I would tell the truth?
Speaker 4: But you know, it was it was as though I'd
Speaker 4: also said that story to the other doctor, so I
Speaker 4: was getting twice the amount I needed. So it wasn't
Speaker 4: that I was lying about the pain. I was telling
Speaker 4: them about the end of metriosis.
Speaker 1: And yeah, a.
Speaker 4: Lot of the time, every now and again a doctor
Speaker 4: would go, I don't feel comfortable prescribing this.
Speaker 2: And did you feel so ashamed when that happened?
Speaker 1: I really did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was That was the worst part is the
Speaker 4: shame that comes with it.
Speaker 2: How do you in that conversation, It's like, oh, okay.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you just exactly. You just go okay, and they go,
Speaker 4: I'll prescribe you this instead.
Speaker 5: And one time because you became worried that there would
Speaker 5: be some central record. Yeah, so you knew you couldn't
Speaker 5: give a false name, so you gave a false birthdate.
Speaker 2: When did that go wrong?
Speaker 4: I was just writing down whatever birthdate came to my mind.
Speaker 4: When they give you the form to go and sit
Speaker 4: down and write out your details. A couple of numbers, Yeah,
Speaker 4: pick a couple of numbers. Any numbers doesn't matter. Actually
Speaker 4: it does matter when it's February. Because I wrote February thirty.
Speaker 4: I got busted. I went to the receptionist. She's typing
Speaker 4: it in. She goes, wait, so your birthday is February
Speaker 4: thirty and I no, she didn't even say February.
Speaker 1: She went the thirtieth of the second. So I didn't
Speaker 1: admit and I was like yeah, and oh god, again
Speaker 1: the shame, the shame.
Speaker 5: So oh.
Speaker 4: That didn't last very long, the doctor shopping, because I
Speaker 4: actually just thought, this is, this is you got to
Speaker 4: stop like you're you're going to get in trouble here,
Speaker 4: you know, and you're also going to where does it end?
Speaker 1: You know? It will it will?
Speaker 4: You'll want more and more if you keep taking more
Speaker 4: than you should. So thankfully, I think due to that
Speaker 4: lack of access, it stopped me from having a full
Speaker 4: blown addiction back then, and so it didn't really this
Speaker 4: oh well that was let me think I would have
Speaker 4: been about it would have been maybe late twenties, early thirties,
Speaker 4: I think when the end on one happened. And again
Speaker 4: I wouldn't have called that an addiction. I think that
Speaker 4: was an abuse. It was abusing something and taking it
Speaker 4: a little bit recreationally, but not an addiction at that point,
Speaker 4: although obviously the addictive behavior was coming out and so
Speaker 4: it wasn't until probably twenty nineteen, I think late twenty eighteen,
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, so.
Speaker 1: I had access to it and used it as a
Speaker 1: coping mech.
Speaker 5: Quite a few years later, and it's years in between.
Speaker 5: Were you doctor shopping all of that time?
Speaker 1: No? No, no, no, So you did stop? I did. Yeah.
Speaker 4: It was almost like that was so much effort and
Speaker 4: so much embarrassment came with that, and humiliation because even
Speaker 4: sometimes when you were prescribed it, you could tell the
Speaker 4: doctor was.
Speaker 1: Almost looking at you like you were I used to
Speaker 1: think to.
Speaker 4: Myself, God, he's looking at me like I'm a junkie,
Speaker 4: you know, And I thought, but you are a junkie
Speaker 4: right now in this situation, you are pretty much like
Speaker 4: I just thought. You know, it was too humiliating, and
Speaker 4: I thankfully stop that because I can't. Doctor shopping is
Speaker 4: incredibly time consuming.
Speaker 2: Is that when you started drinking more?
Speaker 4: No? Not even no, I didn't. Actually I never really
Speaker 4: had a problem with drinking. I think, I would say,
Speaker 4: you know, I guess it depends how you define a
Speaker 4: problem with drinking. So I never really liked alcohol at all.
Speaker 4: Kitty was born, and then suddenly it was a lot
Speaker 4: was happening with my mad marriage and then a child
Speaker 4: on top of that, and then we obviously refused any help.
Speaker 4: We didn't get anyone on board, so it was just
Speaker 4: Leah and I, which is fine, you know, it's absolutely manageable.
Speaker 4: And I think because the problems we were having, I
Speaker 4: don't know, I just felt like, oh, suddenly I was
Speaker 4: wanting a glass of wine as soon as she went
Speaker 4: to bed and so. But again, it wasn't that I
Speaker 4: was drinking too much during that period, but I absolutely
Speaker 4: did have one or two every single day for the
Speaker 4: next thirteen years, or not thirteen actually because I went
Speaker 4: to rehab when she was seven days a week, but
Speaker 4: seven days a week and whilst I wasn't getting drunk
Speaker 4: when I was in rehab, and went in there thinking, oh,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to give up alcohol because I don't
Speaker 4: have a problem with that.
Speaker 1: Once I started writing down my relationship to.
Speaker 4: Alcohol, I thought, well, if I haven't had one day
Speaker 4: for the last ten eleven years without a glass of wine,
Speaker 4: then maybe there is a problem there. I mean, you
Speaker 4: don't have to be getting drunk every night and waking
Speaker 4: up and drinking alcohol first thing in the morning to
Speaker 4: have a problem with alcohol. And I think that's how
Speaker 4: I always identified it's.
Speaker 2: Like alcoholic adjacent, Yeah it is, or using it as
Speaker 2: a crutch.
Speaker 1: It's a dependency on it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure, when you got that phone call and
Speaker 5: you think about how long had that person been in
Speaker 5: your life who was supplying you with the pills?
Speaker 4: Pretty much was soon as I ran into them is
Speaker 4: when it started. So twenty nineteen I think that was.
Speaker 4: And how would it work? Would you like text them?
Speaker 5: Because I imagine they were not doing the right thing
Speaker 5: and you were not doing the right thing, So how
Speaker 5: did you actually do it? Because the risk of being
Speaker 5: caught for both of you and the stakes for.
Speaker 4: High Yeah, I didn't think about that. It's almost like
Speaker 4: I didn't even want to think about that part.
Speaker 5: It's actual because it wasn't like you weren't scoring heroine
Speaker 5: then you weren't. I think it was like these were
Speaker 5: just over the counter painkillers exactly.
Speaker 4: I thought, well, these are legal, so therefore it's not
Speaker 4: that big a deal.
Speaker 1: That's what I told myself.
Speaker 5: And did you feel shame when you spoke to this
Speaker 5: person and you kept saying, I need like did you
Speaker 5: get them by the box? Did you go and pick
Speaker 5: them up from their house?
Speaker 4: Like, no, I would, I would meet them, and it
Speaker 4: was actually, yeah, so they I would meet them. I
Speaker 4: don't want to give away who this person is, but
Speaker 4: it's not. It's not like this kind of dodgy drug
Speaker 4: deal in the middle. I'm not, you know, sitting in
Speaker 4: their car and exchanging It wasn't quite like that.
Speaker 2: But no, but it was like that. It just didn't
Speaker 2: feel like that exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It wasn't like, you know, necessarily drug dealer type.
Speaker 1: It was a situation. It was a different situation.
Speaker 5: When you think about that person, how do you feel
Speaker 5: about them?
Speaker 4: That's a good question actually, because I know my friend
Speaker 4: Gemma is angry with that person, but I am not
Speaker 4: because I put them in that situation and I know
Speaker 4: they gave me an extraordinarily large amount of medication.
Speaker 1: But I can't turn around at the end of it
Speaker 1: all and go, well, you shouldn't have done that. I
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 4: I just I don't know what I was lying to
Speaker 4: them as well. I mean, I wasn't saying it was
Speaker 4: all for me. I was saying, oh, yeah, I've got
Speaker 4: some people at work who need you know, still knocks
Speaker 4: as well because we all work crazy hours.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I was lying to them all.
Speaker 5: Slight different with the many packets of neuropan plus and
Speaker 5: painkillers that you needed though.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was just because that's stuff you have
Speaker 4: to go to a doctor and get prescribed it, and
Speaker 4: you know that used to be an over the counter
Speaker 4: situation and you know they could access it and they
Speaker 4: were like, yeah, okay, no wors you know, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know do you have contact with them anymore?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 4: No, no, ever since that day? I think it was.
Speaker 4: That was it, you know, was done.
Speaker 2: The next fine call you made after that.
Speaker 1: One was to who Gemma my best friend?
Speaker 2: What did you say to her?
Speaker 1: So? Why? Well?
Speaker 4: I thought I needed someone who I knew could A
Speaker 4: help me and b wouldn't judge me and was close
Speaker 4: to me that I could trust. And Jemma knew everything
Speaker 4: about me except that you know, she was the one
Speaker 4: I would always talk to about any problem I had
Speaker 4: in life and vice versa.
Speaker 5: Interestingly, in the book, you talk about your assistant who's
Speaker 5: been with you for ten years, Brett, who sounds amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and she knows everything about you, yes, including this. She's
Speaker 5: the one person or the other person besides the person
Speaker 5: who was supplying you with it.
Speaker 2: Who did know.
Speaker 5: And she would sometimes leave notes around the house. I
Speaker 5: know because she would see all the empty blister packs
Speaker 5: and she would witnessed you, you know, day and night,
Speaker 5: and she'd watched you deteriorate along with other pe.
Speaker 2: Why didn't you.
Speaker 1: Call her first?
Speaker 4: I don't feel I want to burden her with something
Speaker 4: like that. I think with Britta and I, she is
Speaker 4: like a big We always laugh. She's my big sister
Speaker 4: because she's the protector, and she's the one that's always
Speaker 4: trying to will in those days help me and I.
Speaker 4: But she always has kept it professional. You know. She's
Speaker 4: always very careful not to cross the line where we
Speaker 4: become best friends, and she's she's always mindful of that
Speaker 4: that there's a line like we don't cross. We're friends,
Speaker 4: we're like sisters, but also we're not hanging out socializing
Speaker 4: every single day. And I feel and so there has
Speaker 4: been a certain level of professionalism with brittan Ie and
Speaker 4: our relationship.
Speaker 2: That must have been a big deal for her to
Speaker 2: write those letters.
Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, How did you feel when you saw them,
Speaker 5: because that was the first time you'd had a mirror
Speaker 5: held up to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Oh, I think when you're in and when you're in
Speaker 4: the middle of an addiction and someone does that to you,
Speaker 4: you don't sit there and go, oh my god, I
Speaker 4: feel so ashamed. I feel so this. Oh I really
Speaker 4: should get help. I can't believe she you just immediately
Speaker 4: don't think about that. Let's not think about that. It's
Speaker 4: just you just don't want denial, big denial.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: After this short break, we hear from Gemma, who was
Speaker 5: on the other end of that phone call, and we find.
Speaker 2: Out what she did next.
Speaker 5: So you called Gemma because she's the closest person to you,
Speaker 5: and also she knows how to get shit done and
Speaker 5: sort shit out. Yeah, which brings me to you, jem
Speaker 5: and that weekend for you the night before when you'd
Speaker 5: been over at Jack's house. Yeap, what did you notice
Speaker 5: about her? And what had you noticed over what period
Speaker 5: of time leading up to that?
Speaker 3: I probably didn't notice much the night before, And in fact,
Speaker 3: we was saying this the other day. It was quite
Speaker 3: funny because I left earlier that night, which in nine sight,
Speaker 3: thank god I did, because I needed my wits about
Speaker 3: me the next day, it turned out. But I think
Speaker 3: I left it like nine or ten that that night before,
Speaker 3: and to be honest with you, there was nothing different
Speaker 3: that night as opposed to any other night that we
Speaker 3: would hang out or day we'd hang out. But the
Speaker 3: consistent thing that I saw was that there was a
Speaker 3: niggling feeling that something wasn't right. And I think that's
Speaker 3: why I got so upset when I found out, because
Speaker 3: I was angry at myself that I hadn't figured it out.
Speaker 3: But there was always an excuse that I thought, like,
Speaker 3: you know, whether it was Jack seemed really tired. Well, obviously,
Speaker 3: it turns out she was taking fourteen still knoxes a day,
Speaker 3: so of course she's going to be tired. But in
Speaker 3: my head, i'd see her be really sleepy and tired,
Speaker 3: and I'd think, well, she does breakfast hours and she's exhausted,
Speaker 3: and you know, ability, Yeah, And so there was always.
Speaker 1: Kind of a reason.
Speaker 3: Or I'd noticed that we'd go out for dinner and
Speaker 3: maybe we'd only had one or two glasses of wine
Speaker 3: and I'm obviously still fine, and Jack would seem like
Speaker 3: she was drunk, and I'd think, again, well, she.
Speaker 1: You know, she doesn't get a lot of sleep.
Speaker 3: So there was always this kind of I had this
Speaker 3: justification in a way in my head, and I was.
Speaker 3: I was at her all the time, like I was saying,
Speaker 3: something's not right, and I think we should take you
Speaker 3: to the doctor.
Speaker 4: Well, during that time, I think about six weeks, maybe
Speaker 4: even eight weeks prior I genuinely had gotten sick, had COVID.
Speaker 1: Then I think it was like a lung or chest infection.
Speaker 4: I just don't know what it was. But it was
Speaker 4: constant coughing, being lethargic. And so I was sick for
Speaker 4: this very long period of time, which I know was
Speaker 4: for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should be getting better.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because nothing was changing, I thought something's not right here.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I guess I noticed small things, but it
Speaker 3: never ever occurred to me.
Speaker 1: That it would be it was.
Speaker 3: But also I was with Jack all the time, and
Speaker 3: she was very very good at hiding it, like there
Speaker 3: was no signs add It's a crafty.
Speaker 2: Aren't they?
Speaker 1: One hundred percent? Yeah?
Speaker 2: How hard is that?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: How calculated do you have to be?
Speaker 1: You have to be quite calculated.
Speaker 4: You have to you know, you might go out to
Speaker 4: dinner and then you're like, Okay, how many pills do
Speaker 4: I need?
Speaker 1: Where do I hide them?
Speaker 4: If someone says, oh, can I borrow your lipstick and
Speaker 4: they open your bag. You immediately panic, thinking, shit, are
Speaker 4: they going to see these pills in there? You know,
Speaker 4: so you have to hide them in the little back
Speaker 4: pocket and then put tissues on top of it in
Speaker 4: case someone goes to that back pocket and goes, oh,
Speaker 4: I've lost my button?
Speaker 1: Can I put it in your back pocket?
Speaker 4: Then you have to take the pills and you have
Speaker 4: to go to the bathroom and you know, figure out
Speaker 4: if somebody in here are they going to look at
Speaker 4: me at the basin with the water you just and
Speaker 4: then just covering up of the actual the effect. Though,
Speaker 4: that isn't hard because what happened was initially when in
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen when I had started taking a still Knox
Speaker 4: and some painkillers. I guess, like any drug, they had
Speaker 4: a maximum effect and then the tolerance that gets built
Speaker 4: up happens very very quickly, and so you're taking more
Speaker 4: and more. But actually, if I'm really honest, I would
Speaker 4: say the last year of my addiction, I felt nothing,
Speaker 4: and I kept saying to myself, but why are you
Speaker 4: continuing to take it?
Speaker 6: Then?
Speaker 4: Like, if you're not feeling anything anymore and it's not
Speaker 4: giving you anything, why are you taking it? And I
Speaker 4: think I just kept living in hope that it would
Speaker 4: give me some sort of high. And the other thing
Speaker 4: was that I didn't want to. I just didn't know
Speaker 4: how to really come off it, because I knew on
Speaker 4: the days I didn't have Kitty, I was taking that
Speaker 4: usual amount. The days I had Kitty, when I would
Speaker 4: take half a pill here and there, it was just
Speaker 4: trying desperately to level me out, and those that feeling
Speaker 4: was so awful that I just didn't want to experience that.
Speaker 4: Either I don't know, I just keep going back to
Speaker 4: this denial of like I don't even know what was
Speaker 4: going on with me there, but it really genuinely was
Speaker 4: hardly having an effect at all. So when you ask
Speaker 4: how difficult is it to cover all of that up,
Speaker 4: that part isn't wasn't even functioning so high functioning that
Speaker 4: you know, it's just not even it's pointless even continuing.
Speaker 3: So the next day that was interesting because then when
Speaker 3: things did transfire, all these secrecy like elements would come
Speaker 3: out so and it would all make sense. It'd be like, oh,
Speaker 3: so is that why every time we'd go out you
Speaker 3: was always adamant that your handbag, like no one could
Speaker 3: touch your handbag or yeah, you'd always go to the
Speaker 3: bathroom every time the food was put down.
Speaker 1: And I was always perplexing, like.
Speaker 2: Like reverse bulimia.
Speaker 5: Because I was bollim when I was in my early
Speaker 5: twenties and I'm thinking about all that strategized and be like, Okay,
Speaker 5: so where will I be, where's the bathroom, who's going
Speaker 5: to be in there?
Speaker 2: What can I do? I need to do like all
Speaker 2: the steps that you need to do to cover it up.
Speaker 5: And it's like no one would have guessed when you
Speaker 5: go to the bathroom always before the food comes, because you've.
Speaker 1: Got to have it. If I've done it after, people
Speaker 1: might have gone hang on a second.
Speaker 4: And that's the thing. If anyone gets in the way
Speaker 4: of your plan. Yes, like the yeah, just ruin my
Speaker 4: whole night, Like you know, it's.
Speaker 5: I still have anxiety dreams about having binged and being
Speaker 5: not able to throw up. I still have those anxiety
Speaker 5: dreams now because it's such a it's so ingrained. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: and it's it's well, it's like any it's like an
Speaker 5: addictions and it's having to learn and having to learn
Speaker 5: what it's about because it's not about.
Speaker 2: The food or the alcohol or the pills or whatever,
Speaker 2: it's about why you're using it.
Speaker 5: What's interesting to me is reading your book and the
Speaker 5: conversations is that no one had any idea, like like
Speaker 5: it was the last thing. And I'm interested in what
Speaker 5: that says about you and what everyone thinks about you.
Speaker 5: And it made me think that everyone must think that
Speaker 5: you're very dependable, responsible, grounded, like all of those things
Speaker 5: that you wouldn't connect with addiction.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think the main reason is that because I don't
Speaker 4: do any kind of party drugs and really never have,
Speaker 4: and I think I'm probably one of the only people
Speaker 4: and I'm not even just talking about the entertainment or
Speaker 4: I'm talking just in Sydney's Eastern suburbs for a start.
Speaker 4: I reckon I'm one of the very rare people who
Speaker 4: have never even tried coke.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh I have tried.
Speaker 5: But I feel that way too, Like you can swim
Speaker 5: in that circle and it's like you realize you're the
Speaker 5: only one left at the table when everybody else has
Speaker 5: gone to the bathroom.
Speaker 4: Yeah, really everyone on there, I know, I know, and
Speaker 4: so I think everyone always put me in that basket
Speaker 4: of Oh, she just doesn't do drugs at all, And
Speaker 4: so I think that was if anyone even had a
Speaker 4: miniscule thought of that, they'd be like, oh, no, she
Speaker 4: would never be doing that because she doesn't do This
Speaker 4: is also.
Speaker 5: Part of it that people don't think of prescription medication
Speaker 5: as being addictive or something that people get addicted to, like.
Speaker 1: I think I know that.
Speaker 4: I was so confused about it when I heard Matthew
Speaker 4: Perry had gotten addicted to painkillers.
Speaker 1: I remember that. I remember thinking, who gets addicted to painkillers?
Speaker 1: But I just thought they were by that too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think why how you know it was so bad?
Speaker 5: It was also hearing that you take sleeping It's like
Speaker 5: what everyone always asks you is how do you get
Speaker 5: up in the morning.
Speaker 2: So early be so tired?
Speaker 5: It's like, why would you be taking sleeping pills?
Speaker 1: Good question, Yeah, if you.
Speaker 5: Would be addicted to anything. Yeah, And probably that's why
Speaker 5: the people around you didn't pick it either, because it's
Speaker 5: quite easy to you know, we can all pick the
Speaker 5: signs of someone who's who's on appers and who's high,
Speaker 5: but when someone's just a bit tired or a bit
Speaker 5: and as you say, when you're just taking it to
Speaker 5: be normal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that was what I was perplexed by
Speaker 3: that day when they're all, you know, unraveled, because I
Speaker 3: remember sitting and going.
Speaker 4: I can I just say when I went into rehab,
Speaker 4: I was the only person that was addicted to Everyone
Speaker 4: went because it's ambient over there, and they're like ambient.
Speaker 2: Like why people get addicted to stimulants?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do.
Speaker 4: It was like I mean when I told them in
Speaker 4: rehab that it was what I was taking. So they
Speaker 4: call it Thailand Ole three over there, and obviously people
Speaker 4: are in there mostly for meth fentanyl, alcohol. They're like
Speaker 4: the three big ones, and I was the only one
Speaker 4: in there for Thailand. They literally looked at me like Ossie,
Speaker 4: white girl, she's addicted to Thailand.
Speaker 1: Oh, this is so lame.
Speaker 2: It's so suburban.
Speaker 1: It's so suburban. That's often what.
Speaker 5: People say about the things that women get addicted to
Speaker 5: is because women have caring responsibilities, whether it's for children
Speaker 5: or partners or parents, whatever, they're more likely to get
Speaker 5: addicted to things that enable them to function, So things
Speaker 5: like gambling, things like food, things like prescription medications.
Speaker 4: It's something you can still function, but it's not you know,
Speaker 4: you don't feel like you're going off the rails hardcore
Speaker 4: with your addiction, which is really really is not the case.
Speaker 4: And I think that that's my point in the book.
Speaker 4: When I first got in there, I felt that way too.
Speaker 4: It's like, hang on.
Speaker 1: I've got the least scary.
Speaker 4: Addiction in here, and everyone's looking at me like really,
Speaker 4: like you're in rehab for that. But yeah, absolutely, Like
Speaker 4: the problem I have is the same as the person
Speaker 4: next to me, he's doing Heroin. We both have the
Speaker 4: same problem, which is we're using that as a way.
Speaker 1: To escape something else, and we need to address what
Speaker 1: that is.
Speaker 2: You're sitting here now talking very calmly about it.
Speaker 1: What was that.
Speaker 5: Phone call like from your point of view, Jim? When
Speaker 5: she called you, you were in the car driving out
Speaker 5: to the country. Yeah, on a lovely sunday.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was, And so she sounded that quite hysterical
Speaker 3: and was almost hyperventilating. So I knew it was bad,
Speaker 3: whatever it was, And I pulled over because I thought
Speaker 3: I can't be driving, like I kind of braced myself.
Speaker 1: I could tell the severity very quickly.
Speaker 2: And someone died.
Speaker 3: Maybe I did, actually, yeah, I thought something had happened, yeah,
Speaker 3: to someone that we own. And then she managed to
Speaker 3: get out the words because I was saying, just told me,
Speaker 3: whatever it is, just say it, just say it. And
Speaker 3: she managed to kind of spit out the words in
Speaker 3: between the sobs of I've done something really stupid. That's
Speaker 3: all she kept saying.
Speaker 1: And I still was like, what does that mean?
Speaker 3: I said what, And then she eventually got out the
Speaker 3: words of I've been taking pills. And that's all she
Speaker 3: said to me was I've been taking pills. And immediately
Speaker 3: everything was like the penny dropped for me.
Speaker 1: I was like, so you.
Speaker 5: Didn't think she meant I've been taking pills this morning
Speaker 5: or last night.
Speaker 2: You knew straight away.
Speaker 3: I figured it was like you know that domino effect.
Speaker 3: I just figured the whole sequence of everything out and
Speaker 3: it all made sense.
Speaker 1: And then I think he said.
Speaker 3: And the person I was getting them from has just
Speaker 3: been busted, and I don't know what to do. And
Speaker 3: I've never ever heard Jack in that state before, and
Speaker 3: so all I said was, I said, just just sit tight,
Speaker 3: I'll be there.
Speaker 1: I'll be there in two hours.
Speaker 3: And I turned around and I drove straight back where
Speaker 3: you go house. I was going down to the Southern
Speaker 3: Highlands south of Sydney, so I was pretty much close
Speaker 3: to where I was going, and so I turned around and.
Speaker 2: Drove change of plans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I.
Speaker 3: Didn't know what the pills were or how many she
Speaker 3: was taking. I didn't know any of that. But I
Speaker 3: just had a gut feeling that it wasn't going to
Speaker 3: be like I'm taking one pill here and there. I
Speaker 3: just had this innate feeling that it was quite severe.
Speaker 2: And so, you know, what did you do in the
Speaker 2: car on the way home, I mean, on the way
Speaker 2: back to Jack.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I've never asked that. Actually, well, no,
Speaker 1: you do know I called That's what I know. But
Speaker 1: I didn't know know that. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: I actually didn't do it. Did it take you before
Speaker 1: you decided to call Betty? About an hour?
Speaker 5: Some people are good in a crisis. I'm really good
Speaker 5: in a crisis, as long as the crisis isn't happening
Speaker 5: to me. Yeah, it really focuses my thoughts. I know
Speaker 5: exactly what to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a very sounds I killed that. Yeah, I've
Speaker 3: always been like that. I don't know why, but I
Speaker 3: have that too. And so I sat with it, and
Speaker 3: I just sat with my own thoughts for the first
Speaker 3: hour of driving, and I think I was also trying
Speaker 3: to piece some things together in my head. I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: she you know, she's probably been doing it. I was
Speaker 3: trying to, you know, figure out the timeline, I guess,
Speaker 3: and then I started to think, Okay, let's prepare for
Speaker 3: all situations here, because that's my nature.
Speaker 1: I'm a planner.
Speaker 3: And so I thought, if it is an addiction, and
Speaker 3: if it has been going on for a while, then
Speaker 3: the fact that she's told me, I need to act quickly.
Speaker 3: Like I knew there were certain things, and I've had
Speaker 3: some experience. I've been around other people that have had
Speaker 3: addiction and successfully overcome them, and so I knew that
Speaker 3: if it was that, I needed to be prepared and
Speaker 3: I need to act immediately. So I kind of started thinking, well,
Speaker 3: if it's that, this is what we'll do. And if
Speaker 3: it's not that, you know, this is what we'll do.
Speaker 3: And I started putting scenarios in my head to prepare
Speaker 3: for the worst case scenario, which is what I did
Speaker 3: think it was. I thought, well, I'm going to find
Speaker 3: out if I can even get her in somewhere. And
Speaker 3: I also never contemplated it being in Australia for a
Speaker 3: number of reasons.
Speaker 1: First of all, I just thought.
Speaker 3: That it would be a media circus and if she
Speaker 3: was genuinely unwell, as her friend, selfishly, I wanted her
Speaker 3: to get better, and so I thought, if it's in Australia,
Speaker 3: she won't be able to do that, just because the
Speaker 3: chances are too high that it'll get out. And I
Speaker 3: also thought she'd probably if it did get out, then
Speaker 3: she'd probably use it as an excuse to say I
Speaker 3: can't stay here anymore. And so I wanted to eliminate
Speaker 3: all options of her being able to not get successful treatment.
Speaker 3: I did have friends who had gone to Betty Ford.
Speaker 3: I lived in America for quite a long time, and
Speaker 3: so I knew that their program was a legitimate program
Speaker 3: and that I'd seen other people recover very successfully.
Speaker 5: When I heard the audio of you sang it on
Speaker 5: the show about Betty Ford, I.
Speaker 2: Was like, Betty fool, that's so retro. Yeah, I didn't
Speaker 2: even know it was kind of still around.
Speaker 6: YEA Betty four Center was founded in nineteen eighty two
Speaker 6: by former First Lady Betty Ford. After admissions, you'll be
Speaker 6: escorted to the medical and detoxification.
Speaker 1: Unit, in the medical unit.
Speaker 6: You'll be evaluated by our team of positions and it
Speaker 6: will be determined when it's appropriate to move you over
Speaker 6: to one of the residential halls. Our medical staff is
Speaker 6: here twenty four to seven to make you as comfortable
Speaker 6: as possible.
Speaker 5: Like, surely there are more modern ones, more fancy ones,
Speaker 5: more upgraded worries, And why did you choose that?
Speaker 3: Because I had experience with other people going there, and
Speaker 3: I knew from the other people that had gone there
Speaker 3: that it wasn't a fancy one and that it wasn't
Speaker 3: a day spa situation.
Speaker 1: It was doing the work.
Speaker 3: It was a real program, And so I think it
Speaker 3: was just because I knew it, I thought, well, that's
Speaker 3: my default.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to go there.
Speaker 3: And so I called them when I was about thirty
Speaker 3: minutes out from arriving at Jack's, and I said to them,
Speaker 3: I have a friend who's just admitted this to me.
Speaker 3: I don't know the severity of the situation, but I
Speaker 3: wanted to know, do you have any spots available? And
Speaker 3: I also know it's quite hard to get spots in there,
Speaker 3: just because they have a wait list and you know,
Speaker 3: And the lady said to me, we have one spot
Speaker 3: available and it's available from this Sunday. And I said
Speaker 3: I'll take it. And so so it was a week out.
Speaker 3: It was a week out, yeah, and I said I'll
Speaker 3: take it. And I said, I'll confirm. I'll call you
Speaker 3: back and confirm it in a couple of hours.
Speaker 1: He's all my details.
Speaker 2: How much does it cost?
Speaker 4: I can't It's about like thirty eight forty yeah, for
Speaker 4: the month, for the month.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you got to Jack's house.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what did you discover? What state was she in?
Speaker 1: She was not in a great state. I never driving.
Speaker 1: Not your best day, Yeah, definitely not.
Speaker 3: I never really like reliving it because every time we
Speaker 3: do it makes it really upset.
Speaker 1: But I'll do my best.
Speaker 3: I think it was just very It just broke my
Speaker 3: heart to see her like that. To see anyone like
Speaker 3: that is very confronting because she just was so lost
Speaker 3: and so empty and broken. And I think because she
Speaker 3: finally said it, she was letting.
Speaker 1: All the emotion out, I imagine, and so she was
Speaker 1: very It was like she was almost like.
Speaker 3: A child in that moment, Like it felt like she
Speaker 3: was a child that was desperate to be rescued, and
Speaker 3: she was you know, struggling to breathe. We had to
Speaker 3: do a few breathing exercises, and she was having panic,
Speaker 3: like panic attacks and things. So but it was also
Speaker 3: her you know, rock bottom moment, so to speak, because
Speaker 3: had she not got the earlier phone call, we wouldn't
Speaker 3: have been in that position. And so I was able
Speaker 3: to get pretty much everything out of her straight away,
Speaker 3: Like you didn't hold a lot. I think she was like, well,
Speaker 3: it's done now, so I may as well admit to everything.
Speaker 3: And so that's when I said, what are the pills?
Speaker 3: How often are you taking them? And I was very
Speaker 3: shocked by the amount because I was my head, I'm
Speaker 3: thinking that's close to forty pills a day in total
Speaker 3: that you're taking. And so but i'd like to think
Speaker 3: I don't know if this was the case, but I'd
Speaker 3: like to think I never once judged.
Speaker 1: I never once.
Speaker 3: All I did was I wanted her to feel I
Speaker 3: wanted her to feel my compassion, and I wanted her
Speaker 3: to feel nurtured, and I wanted her to feel safe.
Speaker 3: And that was the primary thing for me, was to
Speaker 3: make her know she was in a safe space and
Speaker 3: that I was going to make sure she was okay.
Speaker 3: And I think because hopefully she felt that she was
Speaker 3: able to really let everything out.
Speaker 5: Yeahhack, the two hours between when you called jem and
Speaker 5: when she arrived at your house, what were they like
Speaker 5: for you? What did you do in those two hours?
Speaker 1: I feel like that was a bit of a blur,
Speaker 1: to be honest.
Speaker 4: I think it was part shock, part relief, part terrified.
Speaker 4: I think it was all those three things. You know,
Speaker 4: when you let the steam out finally of the pressure cooker,
Speaker 4: it's like, oh wow, okay, it's out there. So there
Speaker 4: was that, and that was There was relief in that
Speaker 4: for sure, but it was also what does this mean?
Speaker 1: Now? What does this mean for me? Where do I
Speaker 1: What is jem I going to say? What am I
Speaker 1: gonna have to do?
Speaker 4: I actually didn't think she'd say rehab, So I don't
Speaker 4: know why I didn't think that, but I thought, oh, no,
Speaker 4: we're fine.
Speaker 1: I've got enough to taper off. We're all good.
Speaker 5: After the short break, Gemma makes a plan in the
Speaker 5: way that only best friends can, and Jackie has to
Speaker 5: share the truth with her ex husband Lee and her
Speaker 5: work husband Kyle.
Speaker 2: Stay with us, We'll be right back.
Speaker 5: So your plan, because you had about two weeks of
Speaker 5: stash to taper off, and you knew it was going
Speaker 5: to be tricky. Yeah, but your hand had been forced.
Speaker 5: So that was your plan.
Speaker 1: That was my plan?
Speaker 2: Yeap? What did Jim think of that plan?
Speaker 1: Terrible?
Speaker 4: Because she said to me rightly, so no, no, no,
Speaker 4: that won't work. And I said, yeah, will, I said,
Speaker 4: because I have no one to get this stuff off,
Speaker 4: so I have no choice now, and she goes, no,
Speaker 4: you will find a way to get it. And I
Speaker 4: know that you will unless you fix the actual.
Speaker 2: Problem or replace it with someone that's something else.
Speaker 1: That's right, Yes, And I would have.
Speaker 2: Because you understood addiction, yehas you?
Speaker 1: I didn't.
Speaker 2: Did you think of yourself as an addict yet or that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, I knew obviously I was an addict. What
Speaker 1: did you? Oh? Yeah, I didn't think you did based
Speaker 1: on that. Sorry, yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 4: I knew I was an addict, but I didn't understand
Speaker 4: what an addict was, right. So I when I say
Speaker 4: I didn't understand what an addict was, I just meant
Speaker 4: I had become addicted to something, but I could easily
Speaker 4: just taper off and stop. And I didn't understand that
Speaker 4: addiction is so much more than that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, Like in some people, I'm addicted to coffee
Speaker 5: and I'm addicted to work.
Speaker 1: It's like it's a different thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Addicts can be really hard to reason with.
Speaker 5: And something that we haven't really touched on is the
Speaker 5: duality of your friendship between friends but also your Jack's manager, agent, manager.
Speaker 1: Both, yeah, personally all of it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, which is kind of means Jack's the boss
Speaker 5: of you and kind of means you're the boss of Jack.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 5: How did you navigate that in the conversations that you
Speaker 5: had to have on that day when you were saying
Speaker 5: you're going to rehab and Jack's like, no, not, I
Speaker 5: don't need to.
Speaker 3: Well, it was always the lens of a friend, and
Speaker 3: we always put our friendship first. Like we've worked together
Speaker 3: for many, many years in different capacities, so that's not
Speaker 3: unusual for us. But our friendship's always come first.
Speaker 5: But a friend can't force another friend to do something.
Speaker 5: Whereas you had everything in your hand, because you obviously
Speaker 5: knew if you have an accident, if you get busted, Yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, there's a lot at stake here apart from
Speaker 5: your actual health safety.
Speaker 4: Well, I'll just can I because so Gemma had only
Speaker 4: just become my manager, not long into it, like we
Speaker 4: had just decided on that it's a fast art. Yeah,
Speaker 4: wasn't it to talk about throwing her into the deep end.
Speaker 4: But in the past when things like this have come up,
Speaker 4: certainly never anything like what happened then, but little things.
Speaker 4: Gemma is really good in keeping me on I guess advice,
Speaker 4: and I've always taken her advice very seriously, And I.
Speaker 1: Think it goes back to our friendship.
Speaker 4: Really started to bond tightly when she became EP of
Speaker 4: the show. So she would always say to me, I
Speaker 4: think it's a good idea if you do this, I
Speaker 4: think this is great. I think you know, this will
Speaker 4: sound really good on air, and I know it's uncomfortable,
Speaker 4: and so I've always really valued her advice. And I
Speaker 4: think that day when you said about the rehab, I
Speaker 4: can't speak for you, but I never felt for a
Speaker 4: second you had any managerial or career hat on at.
Speaker 1: All at all. Yeah, I didn't at all.
Speaker 5: And did you have jack that muscle memory of she
Speaker 5: makes good decisions?
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, because anyone else could have said that to me,
Speaker 4: my mom. Yeah, you know, anyone could have said that,
Speaker 4: and I would have dismissed it and gone forget it,
Speaker 4: no way, no how. But with Jemma, I've always known
Speaker 4: that she does actually you know, I really do value
Speaker 4: what she says. And so I might have said I'm
Speaker 4: not going to rehab, that's ridiculous, and I reckon ten
Speaker 4: seconds later I was like okay.
Speaker 1: Then it was very like, yeah, okay, I can't. It
Speaker 1: was probably a bit more than ten seconds. Yeah, it was,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. It went back and forth.
Speaker 4: So I agreed, and then I pushed it back again
Speaker 4: and I said to wait, I don't think this is
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 1: So there was definite resistance for a while. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: overall she has a.
Speaker 5: One of the things that surprised me and I found
Speaker 5: so interesting. I mean, everything in this book I found
Speaker 5: so interesting, but the part about where they say at rehab,
Speaker 5: between booking and arriving, you have to keep taking exactly
Speaker 5: the same amount of whatever it is you're addicted to
Speaker 5: until you get there.
Speaker 2: Can you explain that?
Speaker 1: Jem Sure?
Speaker 3: So, because in Jack's circumstance, she hadn't called herself. They
Speaker 3: still won't admit someone until the person says, yes, I
Speaker 3: am willing to come because it's voluntary exactly. And so
Speaker 3: I did all the initial stuff with them, but then
Speaker 3: I did have Jack had to then get on the
Speaker 3: phone with them and confirm that she was willing to
Speaker 3: come and answer all of their questions. And then they
Speaker 3: spoke to me again and they really expressed to me
Speaker 3: that what can commonly occur is with people who know
Speaker 3: they're going into rehab, they can either try and really.
Speaker 1: Massively overdose, have a go out.
Speaker 3: They think, well, this is my last time to go hard,
Speaker 3: and that can be extremely dangerous and is also when
Speaker 3: there's often fatalities.
Speaker 5: I was reading about someone recently who died on their
Speaker 5: way to rehab, and I didn't realize it was a celebrity.
Speaker 5: I didn't realize how why that was. I was like,
Speaker 5: surely by the time you've decided to go to rehab. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: but yeah, your book helped me understand.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that hadn't occurred to me either me or
Speaker 3: so when they said it, I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: they said, so that's a real concern to be aware of.
Speaker 3: And also they'll try and pretend that they're tapering.
Speaker 1: Off and that they can do it, and then they'll
Speaker 1: go see I.
Speaker 3: Don't need to go now, I've actually now taken like
Speaker 3: less and both options are actually very dangerous. So they
Speaker 3: said it's really important that she takes the same amount,
Speaker 3: and so I had to monitor that for that week,
Speaker 3: which was really strange.
Speaker 5: I'm sure you needed to be very closely supervised and
Speaker 5: not left alone that week.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I stayed with her the whole week. Yeah.
Speaker 5: What about your life, jem Like, that's a big thing,
Speaker 5: because you were not just on your way to the
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, you're going and the way to your kids.
Speaker 5: You have two kids. Were you still married at that point? No,
Speaker 5: so you're a single mum. Yeah, you have two little
Speaker 5: kids and you literally you've got a life of career,
Speaker 5: a family. You had to put everything on hold, not
Speaker 5: just for that week, but to also fly over with
Speaker 5: Jack because she couldn't go on her own. Yeah, and
Speaker 5: admit her yeah, all the way to the gate.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, what a friend.
Speaker 4: That's why I say everyone needs a friend like Gemma.
Speaker 3: And I always say one day, I'm sure I'll ask
Speaker 3: for something.
Speaker 1: In and I hope you do in this.
Speaker 3: Scenario, no, I Yeah, I was very lucky that I
Speaker 3: have a good relationship, thankfully with my ex husband. We
Speaker 3: co parent really well together and we're still friends, and
Speaker 3: so I was able to say to him, which is
Speaker 3: also very rare, because you know, I spend so much
Speaker 3: time the kids are with me a lot. I was
Speaker 3: able to say to him, Hey, just I need you
Speaker 3: to take the kids for a week, And I'd say why,
Speaker 3: And I just am asking you as a favor, could
Speaker 3: she help me out? And I think because he knows
Speaker 3: they're with me so much, and he's he's a good
Speaker 3: guy in that sense that he said sure, like you know,
Speaker 3: you very rarely asked me to step in, and I'm.
Speaker 1: Happy too, so he did.
Speaker 3: But I also knew that I only had a week
Speaker 3: because I actually then had to get back to the kids.
Speaker 3: And and I'm also one of those this is one
Speaker 3: of the things I'm working on on myself. We're all,
Speaker 3: you know, evolving into as we get older. But is
Speaker 3: that I am so dedicated to my kids, like most
Speaker 3: parents are, but mine's probably unhealthily so to the point
Speaker 3: where I never want to leave them.
Speaker 2: I tell you love helicopter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like a helicopter.
Speaker 3: I just love being with them, and so when I'm
Speaker 3: not with them, I get terrible guilt but I you know,
Speaker 3: for that week, there was nothing obviously more important to
Speaker 3: me than getting jack the help that she needed. So
Speaker 3: I was fortunate enough that in my personal life a
Speaker 3: few things aligned, but even I had to make up
Speaker 3: things because I had like work commitments that week, and
Speaker 3: I'd have to say, oh, I've just got to go
Speaker 3: on a trip now for work, so I'm gonna have
Speaker 3: to push that out, or friends and were meant to
Speaker 3: be coming to, you know, stay with me for the weekend.
Speaker 3: The following weekend, I had to say, I've got a
Speaker 3: work trip, which was also because I also everyone knows
Speaker 3: that we're so tightly connected. So I also was mindful
Speaker 3: that if anyone figures out, well, why is she away
Speaker 3: and she's also away, that's a bit weird. Like, so
Speaker 3: I was trying to, you know, make sure that there
Speaker 3: was no moving.
Speaker 5: There were so many movings because you had to call
Speaker 5: your ex husband, but Jackie also had to call yours.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and tell him what was that conversation?
Speaker 1: Like it was kind of short, and.
Speaker 4: I mean the thing with with my ex husband, Lee,
Speaker 4: I think you know, he could probably tell in a
Speaker 4: way that there was problems there, and I think for him,
Speaker 4: he was just very He was empathetic and understanding. He
Speaker 4: had no judgment, and he said, I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 4: I think it's so good that you're addressing it then,
Speaker 4: and you know, I will take care of Kitty and she,
Speaker 4: you know, because we had to figure out how do
Speaker 4: I because she likes to FaceTime. How am I going
Speaker 4: to FaceTime her in rehab? What am I going to say?
Speaker 4: And so we came up with the idea of it
Speaker 4: being a radio conference and you know that I would
Speaker 4: be overseas and Lee was yeah, he I mean, that's
Speaker 4: the thing with Lee, he is just one of the
Speaker 4: greatest guys to co parent with.
Speaker 1: I mean, we were.
Speaker 4: Great together in our marriage, but he has never made
Speaker 4: anything difficult for me and vice versa.
Speaker 5: Both.
Speaker 2: Yeah, incredible, I won't say I mean lucky.
Speaker 5: Yes, because the guys that you were married could have
Speaker 5: been assholes or could have become assholes after you divorced.
Speaker 5: And it takes two people to make a good relationship
Speaker 5: after a divorce. But what about the conversation you had
Speaker 5: to make to your other husband or your other part
Speaker 5: husband called Kyle?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Kyle, it was It was just difficult because I
Speaker 4: didn't know if he was going to ask questions.
Speaker 1: That's what I was worried about, because with Kyle, I
Speaker 1: didn't want to. I didn't want to lie to anyone.
Speaker 4: I didn't want to, And so I was able to
Speaker 4: stick to the truth somewhat in saying that I'm just
Speaker 4: not getting better and I need to take this time
Speaker 4: off otherwise. And it did seem odd because we were
Speaker 4: three weeks away from being on a long holiday anyway, So.
Speaker 1: I knew that for him that.
Speaker 4: Would be a little bit odd, like why can't she
Speaker 4: just hang in there for three weeks?
Speaker 1: She always hangs in there, you know.
Speaker 2: And I said, I have my COVID, my lung infection.
Speaker 1: I'm not I just need it.
Speaker 4: And you know, I said to him, I'm struggling, like
Speaker 4: I did tell him that, and he was like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 4: it's going to be ship, but I get it, and
Speaker 4: I'm you know, you do what you got to do
Speaker 4: and don't ask that many questions.
Speaker 1: No, they don't do They They just take everything fast.
Speaker 5: In another part of your book, when you start dating,
Speaker 5: not a lot of questions. Yeah, No, I do take
Speaker 5: things at face value, really, and we should take them
Speaker 5: at phase value. A lot of time maybe we asked
Speaker 5: him many questions before we get to the logistics. And
Speaker 5: I'm not going to talk about rehab itself, because you
Speaker 5: go into that so beautifully and interestingly in the book.
Speaker 5: I want you to be to explain what addiction looked like,
Speaker 5: because from the way we've been talking, you know, I
Speaker 5: was taking too many pills and then I was a
Speaker 5: bit tired and blah blah, and I had to hide it,
Speaker 5: but talk about the physical effects and what it did
Speaker 5: to your life.
Speaker 4: So in the there's very different stages of it. So
Speaker 4: in the beginning, when I had just separated and was
Speaker 4: new to it and using it as a coping mechanism,
Speaker 4: it was quite It was affecting me quite visibly, I think,
Speaker 4: and because my behavior was strange in that early stage.
Speaker 4: Now I was just going through a separation from not
Speaker 4: only my husband but also fifty percent of the time
Speaker 4: with my child, and so friends would come over, but
Speaker 4: they would also see that I was drinking like a
Speaker 4: goblet of wine.
Speaker 1: So they just put it down to that.
Speaker 4: Going through a divorce turning to a bit more alcohol
Speaker 4: than she should. But we've seen that play out many times,
Speaker 4: so it doesn't warrant an intervention by any means. But
Speaker 4: in those stages, I mean, I would the particularly the
Speaker 4: still knocks would just have a great effect, so you
Speaker 4: would take one. I would kind of wait until later
Speaker 4: in the day for that, because you know who wakes
Speaker 4: up and takes a still knox.
Speaker 1: That didn't happen un till later.
Speaker 4: And then once I had that still knox with the
Speaker 4: alcohol I'd already been drinking during the day, then you
Speaker 4: have this sort of blackout like and I don't mean
Speaker 4: blackout is and you're on the bed, collapsed and you
Speaker 4: sleep for you know, hours on end. You're functioning normally,
Speaker 4: but you can't remember anything you did the night before.
Speaker 4: And I remember waking up one morning and I got
Speaker 4: this message from this guy who I haven't even said this.
Speaker 1: In the book.
Speaker 4: I got a message from a guy and he said, oh, like, yeah,
Speaker 4: that sounds good, he said, but you know, you should
Speaker 4: be careful who you say something like that too.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god, what did I
Speaker 1: say to this guy? Would I say? And I scrolled
Speaker 1: back up to have a look.
Speaker 4: And I think I'd said to him something like hey,
Speaker 4: because we'd been on a date or something. And I
Speaker 4: said to him, hey, do you want to be friends
Speaker 4: with benefits? I mean, fuck, I'm mortified at the thought
Speaker 4: of even asking a.
Speaker 1: Guy that this guy was. This guy was I barely
Speaker 1: knew him. He was on TV and everyone knew this guy.
Speaker 4: And I thought, I've just asked this guy to be
Speaker 4: friends with benefits and I would never have done that sober.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I would see these things. The next day.
Speaker 4: I'd almost wake up in fear of what did I do?
Speaker 4: And I would scroll through my phone for evidence.
Speaker 1: I'd go, who did I text? What did I say?
Speaker 4: Because you become like this, it's almost like you want
Speaker 4: to chat, and you want to You've got all this
Speaker 4: kind of the idea seems so good in your head
Speaker 4: at the time, but then when you're sober and you
Speaker 4: wake up the next day, you go, what on earth
Speaker 4: was I thinking? So it was very destructive outer character
Speaker 4: behavior and scary to think that you are doing things
Speaker 4: that you don't remember. And then it got to a
Speaker 4: point where I'd have to write post it notes to
Speaker 4: remind myself of what I was doing and conversations I'd had.
Speaker 4: And then just in terms of the feeling, there wasn't
Speaker 4: actually even that great a feeling with it. It was
Speaker 4: more just the way I would like, and it was
Speaker 4: just like it was numbing pain.
Speaker 2: What about the ulcer there also was that.
Speaker 4: I mean like I had this ulso where it was
Speaker 4: because of neurofy and plus and so I had no
Speaker 4: idea that iyberprofen would cause that kind of damage.
Speaker 1: And it was like.
Speaker 2: Such vast quantities on an empty stomach without.
Speaker 4: Absolutely they even say, I think when you normally take it,
Speaker 4: even on an empty stomach can be dangerous and you
Speaker 4: can get ulcers. So taking too much of iberprof and
Speaker 4: I wasn't even looking at the eyberprofen. I was just
Speaker 4: looking at the codeine. I wasn't even thinking about that.
Speaker 4: And little did I know that that had a severe
Speaker 4: side effect. So the consequences of all.
Speaker 1: Of that ray didn't you? Yeah, yeah I did? I did,
Speaker 1: and it was really really big.
Speaker 5: You talk about how you became, You retreated from the world.
Speaker 5: You didn't want to go out, you didn't want to
Speaker 5: see your friends. The only time you'd see your friends
Speaker 5: is if they came to you. It was also COVID,
Speaker 5: so you just became more and more, you know, cloistered away.
Speaker 5: But then even when restrictions lifted, you didn't want to
Speaker 5: leave your self imposed prison.
Speaker 1: No, I was almost like, oh damn, the restrictions are lifted.
Speaker 4: That means like everyone, yeah, everyone's getting out and socializing again,
Speaker 4: and I didn't want to, like because COVID just all
Speaker 4: the ingredients were there. It was the perfect recipe for
Speaker 4: a people, for a lot of people. Yeah you could,
Speaker 4: Yeah you really could. And working from home just you know,
Speaker 4: gave us a lot of us an excuse to escape
Speaker 4: and not have any real you know, you didn't have
Speaker 4: half of your responsibilities were gone sometimes, you know, you
Speaker 4: didn't have to drive, and so therefore we could drink more.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, it was it was just like this
Speaker 4: kind of perfect storm, the moment in time that just
Speaker 4: all added to the convenience of making that situation worse
Speaker 4: and enabling it, you know. And so it was when
Speaker 4: when the restrictions were lifted and people started socializing again,
Speaker 4: that was hard because I was still isolating myself away
Speaker 4: and I was very well aware that I was just
Speaker 4: not living life at all, but thinking it was better
Speaker 4: than what everyone else was doing.
Speaker 2: That was something that was so interesting in your book.
Speaker 5: You described I'd look at everybody else and I'd feel
Speaker 5: pity for them. It's like, I'm just having a much
Speaker 5: better time alone with my pills. Yeah, and then how
Speaker 5: after rehabit flipped and when you're like you just appreciated
Speaker 5: everything so much, jem I want to ask about the
Speaker 5: logistics of getting someone famous. And that wasn't the end
Speaker 5: of my conversation with Jackie and Jemma. There is still
Speaker 5: a lot of ground to cover, like how did Jemma
Speaker 5: manage to get jack out of the country without being
Speaker 5: hounded by the paps? And what was rehab like and
Speaker 5: more importantly, most importantly, how's she going now. We also
Speaker 5: spoke about why the world was so obsessed with her
Speaker 5: weight and what the truth story was behind that. Like
Speaker 5: I said, so much more meet us in part two.
Speaker 5: We'll be waiting for you. There's a link in the
Speaker 5: show notes.