Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm on the May podcast. When I
Speaker 1: contracted each IV, I was really an terrible relationship with
Speaker 1: meth and I was just relapsing on meth and using meth.
Speaker 1: And for a lot of people that have meth addiction
Speaker 1: are engaged in that kind of like chem sex queer
Speaker 1: like culture. It is so pervasive and it is just
Speaker 1: everywhere you look. And so I think that contracting HIV
Speaker 1: saved me because that was the wake up call that
Speaker 1: got me to get away from meth. And I think
Speaker 1: that if I hadn't gotten HIV, I would have just
Speaker 1: kept relapsing and at one point one of those would
Speaker 1: have killed me, Like I would have overdosed at some point.
Speaker 1: I mean, I was like I was doing it all
Speaker 1: in all the ways. Hi.
Speaker 2: Everyone, it's Naima Brown, executive producer of No Filter.
Speaker 3: Here.
Speaker 2: I'm stepping in and as your special guest host on
Speaker 2: this episode while Kate enjoys her summer break, and I
Speaker 2: couldn't be more thrilled about today's guest. Jonathan van Ness
Speaker 2: is one of the most recognizable and beloved people on
Speaker 2: reality television. He's the heart of Queer Eye, the creator
Speaker 2: of Getting Curious, a New York Times best selling author,
Speaker 2: a comedian, a hair care founder, an activist, and someone
Speaker 2: who has built a global audience just by being completely
Speaker 2: and unapologetically themselves. But the Jonathan you're about to hear
Speaker 2: today isn't just the larger than life performer. It's the
Speaker 2: real person underneath the fame, the one who has survived
Speaker 2: some incredibly dark chapters and who speaks with extraordinary honesty
Speaker 2: about them. We talk about the addictions Jonathan is battled,
Speaker 2: including drug use and sex addiction, and the ways those
Speaker 2: addictions intertwined with shame, secrecy, trauma, and the deep need
Speaker 2: to feel worthy of love. They tell me about relapse, recovery,
Speaker 2: the terrifying moments when they didn't know who they were anymore,
Speaker 2: and the people, the practices, and some pets that pulled
Speaker 2: them back into the world. We talk about joy to
Speaker 2: where they find it now, how they protect it, and
Speaker 2: how they continue to show up in a world that
Speaker 2: has asked them to be an educator, a role model,
Speaker 2: an activist, a comfort and a source of light, all
Speaker 2: while they've been trying to navigate their own inner landscape.
Speaker 2: Here is Jonathan van Ness. Jonathan van Ness, or is
Speaker 2: I like to think Jonathan Van Yes, welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's my pleasure.
Speaker 2: I actually wanted to start this conversation somewhere a little
Speaker 2: bit differently, and we might not even use this, but
Speaker 2: I just did want to have this kind of moment
Speaker 2: of connection with you because I've been so steeped. I've
Speaker 2: been following you for a very long time, but obviously
Speaker 2: for the past few weeks. I just I've been everywhere
Speaker 2: I go, I've got you in my ears, reading your words,
Speaker 2: just very steeped in you. And one of the things
Speaker 2: I've heard you talk about is how and I know
Speaker 2: this was back with the publication of your first book,
Speaker 2: but how sometimes interviews could be retraumatizing or triggering, and
Speaker 2: I just wanted to ask if there's anything you want
Speaker 2: me to know about how your day's been so far,
Speaker 2: about where you are in life, any boundaries you want
Speaker 2: me to be clued into so that this can be
Speaker 2: a great experience for you.
Speaker 1: It's so funny that you say that, because yesterday I
Speaker 1: was doing this interview and I all of a sudden
Speaker 1: started getting like grilled on like World HIV Day and
Speaker 1: what I think we need to do internationally for like
Speaker 1: HIV policy, which I'm happy to talk to, but I
Speaker 1: was just marveling at myself because I was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: I've gotten so good at just like here to chat comedy,
Speaker 1: but I'm going to talk about HIV because it's all
Speaker 1: one big gorgeous ball of human experience or we're slaying it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, you can. You can go wherever I
Speaker 1: think will be good. I feel good today. Thank you.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting, johnath Than, because feel like this has
Speaker 2: kind of just grounded us right where I really wanted
Speaker 2: us to kind of again, which is in the joy
Speaker 2: and the laughter and just the the openness that you
Speaker 2: bring to everything that you have done in the public eye.
Speaker 2: You've shared so much of yourself with us, with the world,
Speaker 2: and not just in your books, but in ten Seasons
Speaker 2: of Queer Eye, in your own podcast Getting Better, and
Speaker 2: in your stand up comedy performances which are incredible, and
Speaker 2: now you're touring with a show called Hot and Healed,
Speaker 2: which I love because I feel like that's actually such
Speaker 2: a great container for this conversation and for talking about
Speaker 2: the incredible life that you have lived and are still living.
Speaker 2: Because as anyone who's been following you would know you
Speaker 2: haven't always felt hot and healed? Are you feeling hot
Speaker 2: and healed today?
Speaker 1: I am, although you know what makes me laugh. I
Speaker 1: came up with this title because I was like, I
Speaker 1: need a fun alliteration, and it was like twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four and I didn't even know I was going to
Speaker 1: start taking a GLP one yet. And then I did
Speaker 1: start taking one, I accidentally lost like seventy pounds. I've
Speaker 1: never been so muscily in my life because I got
Speaker 1: kind of addicted to like Lagree pilates, and so now
Speaker 1: I could just like kind of I think I could
Speaker 1: survive on Mageddon. Frankly, like I am just so like
Speaker 1: I've never been so strong on this like pilates table,
Speaker 1: and so now I'm kind of realizing brand wise, people
Speaker 1: are like, oh, he thinks he's like hot and healed
Speaker 1: because there was like a globe, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I was always super hot and healed. I well, I've
Speaker 1: always been healing. I wouldn't say I'm healed. It's part
Speaker 1: of what the set's about is that it's really a journey,
Speaker 1: not a destination, this whole healing healed thing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I just want to make clear I always thought I
Speaker 1: was really cute, and I am really cute now, and
Speaker 1: I was also cute when I named this who are
Speaker 1: Hot and Healed? Last year? I just who knew that
Speaker 1: the weight was going to come off that fast? And
Speaker 1: I already made the sweatshirts and they say hot and healed,
Speaker 1: so I couldn't change it. And you know, sometimes I
Speaker 1: guess I guess I could have pivoted halfway through. I
Speaker 1: don't know, but yeah, I feel hot and healed, but
Speaker 1: I guess I already did.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And I have a sense, Jonathan, that with the work
Speaker 2: that you have done internally, that wherever you might be
Speaker 2: a year from now, wherever you might be ten years
Speaker 2: from now, I'm actually really excited about, Like what what's
Speaker 2: like an eighty year old Jonathan van Ness going to
Speaker 2: be all about? And I think you're going to be
Speaker 2: hot and healed then in whatever form do you do
Speaker 2: you ever think about old age and what.
Speaker 3: What you want that to look like.
Speaker 1: I want to get there. Yeah, I want to get there.
Speaker 1: I know that much. I would like to be like
Speaker 1: a blend of Dorothy Blanche and Rose Ovs, except for
Speaker 1: I do want a needle point. I don't think the
Speaker 1: three of them had any crafts or their characters like
Speaker 1: had that new maybe did one of them cross stitch.
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure I'm needle pointing having
Speaker 1: more pets. They weren't a pet household, so that wouldn't
Speaker 1: work for me. But they no, so that wouldn't have
Speaker 1: That won't work. But hopefully there's gonna be needle pointing
Speaker 1: and cheesecake and late night chats. But oh, oh, I can't. Oh.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a widow though. I need
Speaker 1: my husband to be there. So like my husband me
Speaker 1: and then like some other fun friends eating cheesecake. Hopefully.
Speaker 2: I love this idea. It's an alternate version of The
Speaker 2: Golden Girls. Where there's pets, where there's your lovely mark,
Speaker 2: where there's you know, maybe more plants, and I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe not Florida.
Speaker 3: Yeah where they were I think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not Florida. I don't think we'll be able
Speaker 1: to do Florida.
Speaker 3: No, We'll pick somewhere else.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I want to swing the pendulum all the way to
Speaker 2: the other side, you know, from kind of imagining what
Speaker 2: really old Jonathan might look like, all the way back
Speaker 2: to the beginning of your story. You grew up in
Speaker 2: a really conservative Midwestern town called Quincy, Illinois. You describe
Speaker 2: yourself as having been a really sem little kid who
Speaker 2: loved scarves, loved nail polish. And that's not something that
Speaker 2: the adults in your life nurtured. It's something that you
Speaker 2: coped a lot of shame and internalized a lot of
Speaker 2: shame around and about. And you know, you've spoken so
Speaker 2: extensively about that experience and about that time in your life.
Speaker 2: And I suppose what I really want to know is
Speaker 2: where did that commitment to self expression that you've always
Speaker 2: had in spite of or despite the fact that that
Speaker 2: sometimes put you in the crosshairs of that externalized shame,
Speaker 2: or it cost you sometimes in the social or in
Speaker 2: the family sphere. Yet you seem to have never been
Speaker 2: willing to be anything other than the fullest expression of yourself.
Speaker 2: Where do you think that that came from.
Speaker 1: It's a really good question. I think maybe watching figure
Speaker 1: skating and gymnastics too young, like before, I just you know,
Speaker 1: just seeing these women express themselves with such like ferocity,
Speaker 1: I just was like, ah, but I just that's like
Speaker 1: a joke. My brain always goes there because I was
Speaker 1: just so obsessed with it as a child and still am.
Speaker 1: But I think I do think that there was just
Speaker 1: like an innate sense. I think that even if like
Speaker 1: my family had been from New York City, I think
Speaker 1: I still would have been exactly how I am. I
Speaker 1: just there was a need to dance and be free
Speaker 1: and ask a lot of questions and be a chatterbox.
Speaker 1: And so I just think I've always been this person,
Speaker 1: and I think I just am so excited that I
Speaker 1: get to nurture that in ermy that didn't have the
Speaker 1: nurturing then but has it now. And I think so
Speaker 1: much of my mission is like trying to help other
Speaker 1: And I talk about this a lot and over the top,
Speaker 1: like I want to help other little jbns, like other
Speaker 1: little you know, kids and young people and people my age,
Speaker 1: just anyone who's felt like othered and like they're like
Speaker 1: who they were wasn't there wasn't space for who they were,
Speaker 1: because I really do believe that there is space for
Speaker 1: everyone to be seen and celebrated for who they are.
Speaker 2: Something that you've done that really has stuck with me
Speaker 2: because I think it's connected in many ways. You grew
Speaker 2: up in a I believe both of your parents were
Speaker 2: journalists or your mother was a journalist.
Speaker 1: Both My parents worked in like TV and newspapers.
Speaker 3: Yes, so you.
Speaker 2: Grew up around the kind of craft of storytelling. And
Speaker 2: one of the things that you did in your second
Speaker 2: memoir was I consider a piece of beautiful journalism, which
Speaker 2: was to go back to Quincy, a place where you'd
Speaker 2: felt quite adrift and alone in your youth and in
Speaker 2: your kind of coming of age, and you uncovered in
Speaker 2: many ways the queer history of Quincy that, for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: when you were there and would have benefited from it,
Speaker 2: it was still quite hidden and covered, so you weren't
Speaker 2: able to kind of, you know, grab hold of it,
Speaker 2: but you almost excavated it, you know, like with one
Speaker 2: of those little archaeology so that it could be recovered
Speaker 2: and be available to other queer kids and young people
Speaker 2: or just I suppose any people in Quincy who want
Speaker 2: to avail themselves of that history and that space. That
Speaker 2: must have been an incredible experience for you.
Speaker 1: It was so fun. There was always this bar that
Speaker 1: I walked by and saw because it was like kind
Speaker 1: of like in our downtown, which is really little, and
Speaker 1: it had like a rainbow. So I always knew that
Speaker 1: was like the gay bar, but I didn't really know
Speaker 1: who owned it or like what the story on that was.
Speaker 1: And so getting to research the owner and then I
Speaker 1: found other queer people in Quincy and their stories, and
Speaker 1: it ultimately in the eighties had been a play the
Speaker 1: late eighties and early nineties became like an HIV testing
Speaker 1: They turned one of the dressing rooms that the queens
Speaker 1: would get ready and to perform into like an HIV
Speaker 1: testing center because they needed space. And it just was
Speaker 1: such an incredible story. And actually the former mayor of
Speaker 1: the city that I interviewed, whose wife was the nurse
Speaker 1: that was, you know, really at the time, so incredibly
Speaker 1: brave and courageous for doing the work that she did
Speaker 1: in Quincy because there was so much anti HIV stigma
Speaker 1: in fear. He was a former mayor Quincy, he just
Speaker 1: passed away. My mom literally just told me that when
Speaker 1: she was here visiting. But what an incredible man. And
Speaker 1: I think that it was so cathartic. It also inspired
Speaker 1: me to write my last book, which was called Let
Speaker 1: Them Stare, which is about this like young gender non
Speaker 1: conforming kid who just can't wait to get out of
Speaker 1: their hometown, and then all their plans change and they
Speaker 1: end up getting stuck in their hometown and they impulse
Speaker 1: by this fierce vintage bag with the last of their money,
Speaker 1: which is such a me thing to do, and it's priceless, honey.
Speaker 1: It's basically like a burken of my fantasy world, but
Speaker 1: it's like even more expensive. It's like on antiqu roachow
Speaker 1: could get Sully like a million dollars, but it's haunted
Speaker 1: by a drag queen from the fifties, and then like
Speaker 1: intergenerational ghosty best friendship ensues and so literally going back
Speaker 1: and doing that those interviews in that research inspired me
Speaker 1: to ultimately write my first fiction novel, which was so fun.
Speaker 2: One of the things I've heard you say a lot
Speaker 2: across all of the different platforms in which you kind
Speaker 2: of share yourself with us, is especially when you're reminiscing
Speaker 2: on times that were more challenging whilst you were also
Speaker 2: in the public eye, Like once you'd kind of become
Speaker 2: a public figure, as you talk about sometimes really heavy,
Speaker 2: big intense things happening in your actual life, and then
Speaker 2: you refer to it as flipping a switch into that
Speaker 2: kind of happy smiley.
Speaker 3: I'm here to make you laugh.
Speaker 2: Performative, but I don't mean that in a disingenuous way.
Speaker 2: But entertaining us. Was that something that started when you
Speaker 2: were quite young, perhaps even as a way to cope
Speaker 2: with some of that external shame that was coming your way.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think not only even just like external
Speaker 1: shame that was coming my way, but just enter like
Speaker 1: familial conflict and just really any conflict. Like I would
Speaker 1: just I wanted to make people laugh, and so if
Speaker 1: I saw people having a hard time, I was just like,
Speaker 1: oh my, I got this. I'll make everybody laugh.
Speaker 2: As we've established with the hot and healed idea, you've
Speaker 2: always been hot, You'll always be hot with the healed
Speaker 2: side of things. I wonder if that flipping the switch
Speaker 2: to be happy, smiley Jonathan for the rest of us
Speaker 2: is something you do less or maybe with more awareness
Speaker 2: now or do you feel do you feel less like
Speaker 2: that's something you owe your audience if it's not really
Speaker 2: where you are.
Speaker 1: It's there's a I will tell you that in this
Speaker 1: in this bit, I'm I'm doing this bit on healing
Speaker 1: from people pleasing and so that is like one thing
Speaker 1: that I think is really funny. I think it's something
Speaker 1: that so many people struggle with, and it's it's like
Speaker 1: an ongoing process because the truth is is that a
Speaker 1: part of me is happy, smiley Jonathan all the time.
Speaker 1: Like that part is truthfully like always in there, even
Speaker 1: when things are really bad and awful. And I've had
Speaker 1: some of like this the worst saddest things happen, and
Speaker 1: I can usually access this part that's like really really joyful,
Speaker 1: not the whole time, but I have like a connection
Speaker 1: to that me at all times. So it's like when
Speaker 1: I need to be that person, I'm not even it's
Speaker 1: it's not like a disingenuous thing. And my husband and
Speaker 1: I've explored how like in public, if one of those
Speaker 1: really bad things have happened and then someone's like really
Speaker 1: excited to meet me, like just I'm in like in
Speaker 1: an airport or getting in like a car somewhere and
Speaker 1: someone's like, oh my god. There's like I can count
Speaker 1: on one hand I think how many times I've said like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm so sorry, like XYZ just happened.
Speaker 1: I just amount up to it. I will feel bad
Speaker 1: about it for like three days like afterwards. It's like
Speaker 1: it truthfully is easier for me to like just take
Speaker 1: the selfie, and I actually and I really do like
Speaker 1: to make people feel good. So it's like I think
Speaker 1: now I do think on my social media, especially like
Speaker 1: having been in Texas for five years, I can see
Speaker 1: externally how I show up different now than than what
Speaker 1: I did. I think the longer that I've you know,
Speaker 1: been in this platform and been in this position, I
Speaker 1: just be like I'm more aware of like the forces
Speaker 1: at play, and so those have been it's been harder
Speaker 1: for me to like access that joy sometimes on social
Speaker 1: because I'm afraid of like being judged. And I think
Speaker 1: only in the last like maybe a year of just
Speaker 1: having been like through the fire, so many times, I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm going to access joy and I'm going to do
Speaker 1: it in public, because that's what we're here to do.
Speaker 1: And my whole mission when I first got into entertainment,
Speaker 1: like it's always been spread self acceptance by modeling joy
Speaker 1: and curiosity. That is what I'm here to do. And
Speaker 1: so that's what I want to keep doing because I
Speaker 1: really do think that's my mission and teach you how
Speaker 1: to like do your hair.
Speaker 2: Well, is that a dig at my hair? Because I've
Speaker 2: been so nervous about my hair this whole conversation.
Speaker 1: Naima, that is like the most craziest thing you said
Speaker 1: this whole interview. Your hair looks amazing. I mean like
Speaker 1: to our listener, you know, like not you your hair looks amazing.
Speaker 1: That was like not a dig on your hair at all.
Speaker 2: You'd appreciate this, Jonathan, that this is the white lotus
Speaker 2: cunty little bobs.
Speaker 1: I love your clb I love and I love your
Speaker 1: side part. I love the side talk. And that was
Speaker 1: like please, that was like so not to read on
Speaker 1: your hair, but no, so yeah, So I feel like
Speaker 1: I can see like how it's affected me, and I
Speaker 1: have so much, like I have so much compassion for
Speaker 1: myself because I just know how hard everything has been,
Speaker 1: but not everybody knows how hard it's been. And it's
Speaker 1: hard to figure out how to thread that needle of
Speaker 1: like how much do you want to tell and how
Speaker 1: much do you not talk about? And so that's like
Speaker 1: a weird needle to thread because I think part of
Speaker 1: my neurodivergence just wants to tell everybody everything, and that's
Speaker 1: like not good some times sometimes you have to filter.
Speaker 2: I think this is something that we your loving audience.
Speaker 2: You know, you're loving public has observed in you, like
Speaker 2: even in queer eye, you know which, we'll get to.
Speaker 2: Your kind of role within the Fab five was a
Speaker 2: lot of the emotional labor. It doesn't seem from the
Speaker 2: outside that you know how to bring ten percent of
Speaker 2: yourself to another person when they're really wanting and needing
Speaker 2: to connect with you. Somehow you manage to center yourself
Speaker 2: and bring one hundred percent of you. But that can
Speaker 2: be exhausting, that can be that's very big work. How
Speaker 2: do you replenish or reset or recalibrate after you've had
Speaker 2: to or decided to share so much of yourself emotionally
Speaker 2: and give so much of yourself emotionally.
Speaker 1: Well. I think a part of it was, like I
Speaker 1: when we went to Texas in season six, I just
Speaker 1: stayed there, like I was so overwhelmed with fame and
Speaker 1: with like the onslaught of attention, like from twenty eighteen
Speaker 1: to twenty twenty that when we went to Austin to
Speaker 1: shoot and then the world stopped, I was just like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, no one, I'm just kind of here
Speaker 1: in the woods in the middle of nowhere. And that
Speaker 1: felt really comforting and I just in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years have been like, oh wow, this level of
Speaker 1: travel of living between like Texas and going so many
Speaker 1: places for stand up and going so many places for
Speaker 1: jab and hair when so much of my work is
Speaker 1: like no longer at home like it was when I
Speaker 1: decided to move there. So long answer, what I do
Speaker 1: to replenish is I had a lot of alone time,
Speaker 1: and I need a lot of alone time with like
Speaker 1: my pets and like my husband and myself to like
Speaker 1: just chill and kind of come back to myself. So
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I did. And now I think
Speaker 1: I've found a good balance of figuring out my work
Speaker 1: life balance so that like I can give everything I
Speaker 1: need to give when I'm working, and I still have
Speaker 1: enough time to be with myself and my family and
Speaker 1: my friends. And so I feel like I've gotten to
Speaker 1: like a much better place of balance. But it was
Speaker 1: such a disorienting experience be like, I mean, I just
Speaker 1: was I mean, I was like a hairdresser doing like
Speaker 1: a web series and then all of a sudden, like
Speaker 1: my life changed so fast and so hard and so
Speaker 1: getting it used to that and then yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: it was, it just was so much. And so that's
Speaker 1: kind of what I mean when I say, like, I
Speaker 1: just have so much compassion for myself because it's been
Speaker 1: so like ten years ago, me would just be like, dang, girl.
Speaker 1: That is when you said you wanted to like become
Speaker 1: famous like after our Gay of Thrones, you really, you
Speaker 1: really that was so much harder that I thought it
Speaker 1: was going to be.
Speaker 2: After the break, Jonathan opens up about the tumultuous years
Speaker 2: during and after college when he found himself caught in
Speaker 2: cycles of drug use and sex addiction.
Speaker 3: Stay with us.
Speaker 2: You were the first male cheerleader in your high school
Speaker 2: who then got a scholarship, a cheerleading scholarship to the
Speaker 2: University of Arizona, where you began your studies in political science.
Speaker 2: You must have this interest in the way that our
Speaker 2: political systems work and the way that our cultural systems
Speaker 2: work that goes much farther back. Why tell me a
Speaker 2: little bit about that interest.
Speaker 1: I think that really comes back to, like growing up,
Speaker 1: my mom sold advertising in our local newspaper, so like
Speaker 1: she would bring me to work after school, and I
Speaker 1: would like run around to like the newsroom, and I
Speaker 1: would run around to like the reporters and I'd be like, what,
Speaker 1: like this is like pre computer. So it was like
Speaker 1: they'd take like rubber cement and like razor things to
Speaker 1: like cut things out and like glue it like you know,
Speaker 1: on the pages to take to the press. It was
Speaker 1: like amazing. And so I just was really curious and
Speaker 1: interested in the news and like the process of the
Speaker 1: news from a really early age, and so much so
Speaker 1: that in the Bill Clinton sex scandal of ninety eight,
Speaker 1: I wrote a paper that was not even like a
Speaker 1: school assignment, like we had these like we had this
Speaker 1: assignment where we had to get these like blank books
Speaker 1: and write like your life story basically, and there was
Speaker 1: like prompts, you know, like everyone made it and it
Speaker 1: was like for your parents. And I was like, Mom,
Speaker 1: we have to find where those books came from. I'm
Speaker 1: going to write a full detailed report on the Bill
Speaker 1: Clinton sex scandal. I pulled my entire class. I did
Speaker 1: like a whole survey of my class. I wrote this
Speaker 1: whole thing like and I was a very moral, god fearing,
Speaker 1: Jesus loving nine year old. I was very like or eleven, No,
Speaker 1: I think I was eleven. I was very disappointed in
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton's actions and behaviors, and I just I was
Speaker 1: a Ken Star apologist. I hate to say it, and
Speaker 1: so and I wrote this whole report and then when
Speaker 1: I wrote Over the Top, I was like, And back
Speaker 1: then when I wrote, I was like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: get this published. I just know someone's going to want
Speaker 1: to publish my like two hundred word with my survey
Speaker 1: from my sixth grade class, Like I just this is
Speaker 1: going to be like what breaks my career. And then
Speaker 1: when we sent it to someone and they never said
Speaker 1: anything back, I was like, oh my god, my career
Speaker 1: is over. I'm so sad. And then it was just
Speaker 1: very fun to get to like put that report that
Speaker 1: I commissioned for myself in over the Top, So if
Speaker 1: you get Over the Top, it's literally in there, like
Speaker 1: I put it in there as like an aside. It's
Speaker 1: like a palate cleanser, because there was a really sad
Speaker 1: chapter and then I needed something like funny and light,
Speaker 1: so I put that in there, which it just makes
Speaker 1: me laugh so hard every time I read it. It's
Speaker 1: so funny.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: And what I love is that you didn't stick with
Speaker 2: political science as a major. The world had other plans
Speaker 2: for you. You had to kind of go through a big,
Speaker 2: kind of crucible of becoming. When you got to college,
Speaker 2: things did go a little bit pear shaped for you.
Speaker 2: That's when your sex addiction, your drug addiction, some of
Speaker 2: those impulsive, addictive behaviors really emerged. How do you think
Speaker 2: about that time now? How do you share the story
Speaker 2: of that time today?
Speaker 1: You know, I don't. It's really one thing that I
Speaker 1: feel like I could do better on. And I found
Speaker 1: that after I wrote Over the Top, I was really
Speaker 1: strong and brave in writing it, and it took so
Speaker 1: much for me to write it, and then once it
Speaker 1: came out and once I did the press for it,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, that felt like putting
Speaker 1: my soul in a blender and then like eating it
Speaker 1: every day, And like soul flavored gushers are just not
Speaker 1: what I want to eat, Like I want to eat
Speaker 1: like not that every day, and so like regular gushers,
Speaker 1: which I'm really going through a phase with right now,
Speaker 1: I'm really into gushers right now. But I've done so
Speaker 1: much work in therapy and with my therapist in EMDR
Speaker 1: to be able to talk about a situation without becoming
Speaker 1: the situation. And I think that one thing that I
Speaker 1: want to do better on is really raising more awareness
Speaker 1: around the implication of this is like really political, but
Speaker 1: raising more awareness around the implications of like defunding Planned
Speaker 1: Parenthood in the United States and what that does to
Speaker 1: sexual health and what that does to people's ability to
Speaker 1: get testing and treatment for sexual health, and just this
Speaker 1: like HIV and STIs do not care if you are
Speaker 1: a Evangelical Christian because Evangelical Christians are, as we all know,
Speaker 1: are doing the same thing that everybody else is doing.
Speaker 1: And so I just think I really want to make
Speaker 1: sure that other people are not because of that misinformation
Speaker 1: and homophobia and transphobia and lack of care for queer people.
Speaker 1: I really do believe in the eighties, if they had
Speaker 1: taken HIV seriously, like when they first found it, like
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I would have ended up
Speaker 1: getting it or if the ripples are so big and
Speaker 1: so huge in history because the most powerful nation in
Speaker 1: the world at the time and still the United States,
Speaker 1: like the President of the United States at the time,
Speaker 1: Ronald Riggan, didn't say the word HIV until eighty seven,
Speaker 1: after like thousands and thousands and thousands of people had
Speaker 1: died and I just think that's one thing that people
Speaker 1: really don't like understand, is like the level of like
Speaker 1: persecution and injustice that like queer people went through is
Speaker 1: a result of the HIV crisis. It's it's so so pervasive,
Speaker 1: and so I wish that I could, I want to
Speaker 1: do a better job about making sure that like young
Speaker 1: people know that because like we don't have like history
Speaker 1: or sexual health is really not taught to us, even
Speaker 1: in like high school. So it's like a lot of
Speaker 1: people are like leaving school like not truly not understanding
Speaker 1: the roots of their of their community. And that I
Speaker 1: think is really important in tur because they mean, these
Speaker 1: these young people I sound so old, but like young
Speaker 1: you know, they're voting, and they're voting for people that
Speaker 1: you know, actively or dismantling the very safety net that
Speaker 1: allows for people to make sure that they don't contract
Speaker 1: HIV and that they and if they do contract an STI,
Speaker 1: they will have a place to get treatment for it.
Speaker 1: And and I think that's one thing that I wish
Speaker 1: because like I didn't know that when I was that age,
Speaker 1: and I always joke that, like when journalists asked me,
Speaker 1: like what would you tell your younger self I'm always like,
Speaker 1: don't do math, So I feel like between that, so
Speaker 1: it's like that and then making sure that people really
Speaker 1: understand what's important, and I really worry that people don't
Speaker 1: understand like what's important at the right time.
Speaker 2: I think that the way that you've chosen to share
Speaker 2: your story so unvarnished, even when many people would be
Speaker 2: tempted to paint maybe just one code of varnish on
Speaker 2: you've always chosen radical honesty. I think, particularly because of
Speaker 2: everything that you've just expressed so beautifully and eloquently, which
Speaker 2: is that you don't want this to be about your story.
Speaker 2: You want there to be benefit and growth and evolution
Speaker 2: that comes from your experience. And it's interesting because I
Speaker 2: even hesitated in thinking about talking to you about, you know,
Speaker 2: your your time and experience with addiction, because I'm really
Speaker 2: resistant to the idea that it has to be such
Speaker 2: a core part of your identity, especially when there has
Speaker 2: been so much time and you've had so many so
Speaker 2: much more life and so many more things to talk
Speaker 2: about since that time in your life. But I think
Speaker 2: what I come back to and why it was important
Speaker 2: to me to talk to you about it today, is
Speaker 2: because you also write about how contracting HIV in many
Speaker 2: ways saved your life, And there's that paradox, isn't it
Speaker 2: for people who might not know that part of your story?
Speaker 2: How did contracting HIV save your life?
Speaker 1: Because it was the when I contracted HIV, I was
Speaker 1: really a terrible relationship with math, and I was just
Speaker 1: relapsing on math and using math. And for a lot
Speaker 1: of people that have meth addiction are engaged in that
Speaker 1: kind of like chem sex queer like culture. It is
Speaker 1: so pervac and it is just everywhere you look. And
Speaker 1: so I think that contracting HIV saved me because that
Speaker 1: was the wake up call that got me to get
Speaker 1: away from meth. And I think that if I hadn't
Speaker 1: gotten AHIV, I would have just kept relapsing and at
Speaker 1: one point one of those would have killed me, Like
Speaker 1: I would have overdosed at some point. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was like I was doing it all in all the ways.
Speaker 1: And it's it's interesting because when I talk about it,
Speaker 1: I feel this need to be like I wasn't like
Speaker 1: doing it every day, and I wasn't, but there was
Speaker 1: like a good bit there where like I just couldn't
Speaker 1: get like because it's like once you dip your toe in.
Speaker 1: It's really they're not kidding when they say if you
Speaker 1: do it once, like you will be addicted. Like I
Speaker 1: literally did it once and then it took me like
Speaker 1: a few years to get to a place where like
Speaker 1: I could like where I could never do it again.
Speaker 1: And I mean I also quit smoking cigarettes. I think
Speaker 1: that meth was harder, and yeah, it really is. I
Speaker 1: learned more about it later and rehab, and it's like
Speaker 1: it's like why we need more compassion for drug addicts
Speaker 1: because if you, like hug, I'm gonna mess up these
Speaker 1: like levels I'm gonna say like millimeters, but it's not millimeters.
Speaker 1: It's like, however you break like measure like the endorphins
Speaker 1: in your brain and like the chemicals in your brain.
Speaker 1: But it's like if you hug someone, it's like you
Speaker 1: get like fifty of them. If you eat, like you're
Speaker 1: like this comfort food, like your favorite thing from like
Speaker 1: your mom, you know, like this is your favorite thing
Speaker 1: from you're little. It's like two hundred. Sex is like
Speaker 1: five hundred, cocaine is like seven hundred and fifty, and
Speaker 1: meth is like two thousand, five hundred. So it's like
Speaker 1: from the time that someone does it once, it's like
Speaker 1: your brain goes so high, it floods it with so
Speaker 1: much good feelings that it's like it'll make it want
Speaker 1: to go there again. And so that's like why kids
Speaker 1: just do not do math. It's so not worth it.
Speaker 1: It's like and either my rule of thumb is we
Speaker 1: just don't do drugs that make us go up, like
Speaker 1: it's just not worth it. Like so my grandpa used
Speaker 1: to say, nothing good happens after night, Nothing good happens
Speaker 1: after you do blow or math, but like the worst
Speaker 1: thing that will happen, Well, I don't we shouldn't talk. Australia.
Speaker 1: I love your weed loss, but I'm just saying weed is.
Speaker 1: I think weed and like alcohol are just so much
Speaker 1: less dangerous than that than the math. But alcohol's really
Speaker 1: bad too.
Speaker 2: Actually, it's interesting how you describe those levels of kind
Speaker 2: of like that brain stimulation, because you've also spoken about
Speaker 2: how when you were really living in that place of
Speaker 2: addiction and not just you know, drugs and sex, but
Speaker 2: you write about this with your impulse shopping and so
Speaker 2: many of those kind of other impulsive behaviors, and you
Speaker 2: described it at one point as kind of trying to
Speaker 2: grab hold of the tail of the comet, which I
Speaker 2: just loved that visual and that you knew you were
Speaker 2: going to get this big dopamine hit, but that you
Speaker 2: also knew that it wouldn't last. And I'm curious, now,
Speaker 2: hot and healed, what's your dopamine supply that feels safer,
Speaker 2: steady year, less costly to yourself in that kind of
Speaker 2: psycho spiritual way, where do you get that hit?
Speaker 1: It's totally my My group fitness is really like such
Speaker 1: a thing. So I had been because like I think
Speaker 1: the thing that kind of stepped in for like drugs
Speaker 1: and sex, especially once I got queer, I was like
Speaker 1: it was spending like because I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I can like buy things I've never had before. And
Speaker 1: I really there was this perfect storm of like COVID
Speaker 1: and isolating and moving to Texas and then finding out
Speaker 1: the Equinox like had a board member that was supporting
Speaker 1: the Trump campaigns. Then I stopped going there in like
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, had never been back since. So there's like
Speaker 1: this perfect convergence of like me just not doing any
Speaker 1: group fitness and for really like all my life, group
Speaker 1: fitness has been like a part of something that I
Speaker 1: did even when I didn't know I was doing it,
Speaker 1: Like cheer was group fitness, Gymnastics was group fitness, like
Speaker 1: I did tennis, I did swimming, like I just had
Speaker 1: always had like a group kind of working out activity.
Speaker 1: And once I wasn't doing yoga, and once I wasn't
Speaker 1: because I had this whole like yoga thing post college,
Speaker 1: like into like when queer I happened, and I just
Speaker 1: wasn't doing anything in group fitness anymore. And I and
Speaker 1: I think, I thought, like I don't have time, I'm
Speaker 1: like building a business, I'm married. I just had like
Speaker 1: it just became. And I also didn't want to get COVID,
Speaker 1: But then I did get COVID like eighteen thousand times,
Speaker 1: and then I was like still fine, And so then
Speaker 1: I started my GLP one journey. And and to be honest,
Speaker 1: I do think that GLP ones I do find that
Speaker 1: they have made me less impulsive, not only with food
Speaker 1: but like other things too, Like I do think that
Speaker 1: like they will probably find that at some point because
Speaker 1: like even with spending, which is like still my kind
Speaker 1: of like kryptonite, like it has made me able to
Speaker 1: like sit with impulses for like much longer to the
Speaker 1: point where I'm like, Oh, I don't need that. I
Speaker 1: don't want that, And that's really weird because I'm like, who,
Speaker 1: what was that voice? I've never had that before. But
Speaker 1: my group fitness is just oh, let me finish that story.
Speaker 1: My ADHD is so intense today. So when I did
Speaker 1: might start my GLP one journey, and after like a
Speaker 1: couple months, I was like just like walking in the
Speaker 1: gym and like doing things in the gym by myself.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, Oh, why don't you go
Speaker 1: back to pilates. You used to love plates. You haven't
Speaker 1: been there in fifteen thousand years. But I was like
Speaker 1: such a lagree girl in my twenties, and so then
Speaker 1: I like found this for former place. I went there,
Speaker 1: and when I came home and I got in the
Speaker 1: shower and like the water like hit my back. I
Speaker 1: cried harder than I have like ever cried in my
Speaker 1: literal whole life. And I was like, you, silly be
Speaker 1: you forgot this part of yourself that was like this
Speaker 1: really important part of yourself of like regulating your neurodivergence
Speaker 1: and regulating like how you relate to the world, and
Speaker 1: like you were getting up in mainlining reading just the
Speaker 1: worst things about yourself on Twitter for four years, like
Speaker 1: why are you not getting up and moving your body?
Speaker 1: You silly cow? And so then I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: group fitness, like this is like when my brain feels
Speaker 1: normal and normally the voice in my head is nice
Speaker 1: for myself. But it was just like, oh, duh, yeah
Speaker 1: that I just cut this part off of myself like
Speaker 1: a dead foot in COVID and just never looked back.
Speaker 1: And that was just I was like, oh wow, that
Speaker 1: was like a huge part of myself to cut off.
Speaker 1: And I've just i think since that day and like
Speaker 1: January of last year, I think I've like not gone
Speaker 1: to a group fitness class like ten times or something
Speaker 1: like I'll take a Saturday off every once in a while.
Speaker 1: But I just feel so good. It like regulates me
Speaker 1: so much to be in a group of people that
Speaker 1: just being treated the same as everyone else and doing
Speaker 1: the same thing as everyone else. It is just so
Speaker 1: regulating to my nervous system and it has really really
Speaker 1: helped me in such a profound way that I'm like
Speaker 1: kind of surprised still, like how much it's helped me
Speaker 1: feel better.
Speaker 2: Coming up next Jonathan talks about the conversation with a
Speaker 2: friend that helped them understand and embrace their non binary
Speaker 2: identity back in a tick. You've been very openly honest
Speaker 2: about coming out as a non binary person and spoken
Speaker 2: so beautifully about not fitting into easy categories. Do you
Speaker 2: remember when that language became the language that made you
Speaker 2: feel at home in your body when you went right, Yes,
Speaker 2: that's what makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: It was definitely a loak. It was definitely a loak,
Speaker 1: like finding a loak on Instagram or maybe they told
Speaker 1: me about it in person, but meeting a lookan becoming
Speaker 1: friends with the loke, I think was the first time
Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, yes, that's what this is.
Speaker 1: So I always like take my hat off to a
Speaker 1: locause I mean they really a locus, like my good
Speaker 1: friend who's a comedian and a storyteller, and I always
Speaker 1: say they're like the thought leader of our time, and
Speaker 1: their Instagram and TikTok is amazing, and I just I
Speaker 1: love them so much. But I think they were really
Speaker 1: the first person that where like they validated my gender
Speaker 1: expression in a way where I was like, and didn't
Speaker 1: even validate it, just showed me a possibility model that
Speaker 1: mirrored how I've already felt my whole life.
Speaker 2: And you've talked about that, You've talked about how you
Speaker 2: know your energy is kind of all over the place,
Speaker 2: and some days you feel more masculine and some days
Speaker 2: you feel more feminine. What is kind of ultimate freedom
Speaker 2: in your gender expression feel like to you?
Speaker 1: These days, it feels like just exactly what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: The only thing that gives me like intense gender dysphoria
Speaker 1: is ties, like ties and suits, Like I just want
Speaker 1: to rip it off my body. I'm like Carrie with
Speaker 1: insects and City with the dress, Like it really makes
Speaker 1: me so like a suit and tie. Even now just
Speaker 1: talking about it, I like like I want to run
Speaker 1: away from you just talking about it, like.
Speaker 2: I actually can't even I'm having a hard time even
Speaker 2: visualizing you in a suit and tie.
Speaker 3: It doesn't feel right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I would only do it for like Halloween,
Speaker 1: if I was going to be like some person in
Speaker 1: a suit. But other than that, I feel like I
Speaker 1: really am kind of living my freedom of my gender expression.
Speaker 1: It's like, and I think one thing that like it's
Speaker 1: caught up if you didn't even ask this, but I
Speaker 1: love it. I'm going to talk about it. I think
Speaker 1: for any queer person that's spoken out for trans inclusion
Speaker 1: in sports or trans people's access to healthcare, it's like
Speaker 1: you're painted is someone who's like trying to like prey
Speaker 1: on children or change children's like gender expression. And my
Speaker 1: whole thing around this persecution of trans people that we've
Speaker 1: seen like across the world, it's that. And it's my
Speaker 1: same thing with reproductive rights. It's about medical privacy. Any
Speaker 1: person should be able to have like bodily autonomy on them,
Speaker 1: like over their bodies, to like make the health care
Speaker 1: decisions that they need to make, whether that relates to
Speaker 1: gender expression or it relates to like having a baby.
Speaker 1: And I just think that for governments to be telling
Speaker 1: people that they know better of what they should do
Speaker 1: with their bodies than the person does, is the true
Speaker 1: really the most like Unamerican thing that you could do,
Speaker 1: like for the Land of the Free and the home
Speaker 1: of the brave. And we are like telling like forcing
Speaker 1: women into birth in this country and telling parents that
Speaker 1: if they have a child who has gender dysphoria, like
Speaker 1: legitimate gender dysphoria. And I'm not saying that like every
Speaker 1: kid who has questions around gender should be getting surgery.
Speaker 1: But I'm saying that for the rare cases where some
Speaker 1: kids do have extreme gender dysphoria, it can be life
Speaker 1: saving treatment and a lot of times and most of
Speaker 1: the time it's not surgery. So there's just there's so
Speaker 1: much misinformation. But my whole thing always just comes down to,
Speaker 1: like privacy. We should be able to have privacy around
Speaker 1: our medical decisions, and the fact that that has been
Speaker 1: taken away from twenty two million women in this country.
Speaker 1: I think, or in the United States, is like crazy
Speaker 1: that that's not what we're talking about like all the time.
Speaker 2: I think it's so interesting, and again this is something
Speaker 2: to have heard you speak about extensively, but broadly speaking,
Speaker 2: it does feel like, even if you think about the
Speaker 2: kind of height of queer eye, that it feels like
Speaker 2: as a culture, we were kind of we were progressing,
Speaker 2: we were evolving, we were normalizing to the point of
Speaker 2: not having to be constantly even unpacking it the diversity
Speaker 2: of gender expression in humanity. Does it feel like we
Speaker 2: are backsliding?
Speaker 3: To you, what is it like for you.
Speaker 2: In America in this political moment. What's happening for you
Speaker 2: and your community.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's awful. I mean, we've had so the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court just held that states' rights are supreme in terms
Speaker 1: of like a state can say that you cannot have
Speaker 1: gender refirming care up to the age of eighteen. Some
Speaker 1: have proposed laws that will go up to twenty six,
Speaker 1: but the Supreme Court has I forget the name of
Speaker 1: the case, but it has it sided with the state
Speaker 1: and with Tennessee. So Tennessee's law that says that you
Speaker 1: cannot get gender firming care until you're eighteen years old stands.
Speaker 1: They're saying it's constitutional, and so they have essentially said
Speaker 1: that it's parental rights for evangelicals and for Christians, but
Speaker 1: not parents' rights for the parents trans of trans young people.
Speaker 1: And the fact is is that you know, miners get
Speaker 1: elective surgery all the time, like miners get nose jobs.
Speaker 1: Miners get all sorts of augmentations, placid surgeries, tweaks, they
Speaker 1: get shoulder surgeries, they get knee surgeries like high school athletes.
Speaker 1: I mean, young people do get surgery. That is a fact.
Speaker 1: And so I think the lawyer that argued this case,
Speaker 1: who's a friend of mine, who I think is so incredible,
Speaker 1: his name is Chase Strangio, and he was the first
Speaker 1: openly trans lawyer to argue a case at the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: He's just saying, like, why is it that cys gender
Speaker 1: young people are able to get these surgeries, Like, so
Speaker 1: you know, a young sixteen year old boy who has
Speaker 1: guino clemastia can go get guino clemastia removed, which is
Speaker 1: gender affirming surgery, But a sixteen year old trans girl
Speaker 1: can't get a breast augmentation. But we have sixteen year
Speaker 1: old women getting breast augmentations with parental consent, So why
Speaker 1: can't trans people do that? So that's that's what the
Speaker 1: case is there, and whether or not someone's going to
Speaker 1: have surgical or regret. I just don't think is society's
Speaker 1: place to enforce that. It's an individual's freedom to do
Speaker 1: with their body what they want, and I think we
Speaker 1: should all have that freedom. And to be denied the
Speaker 1: freedom to do with your body as long as you're
Speaker 1: not hurting someone else, I think is really like just
Speaker 1: so scary, especially when it comes to reproductive healthcare.
Speaker 2: When it comes to kind of your political voice and
Speaker 2: staying in the political fray. You've said that you want
Speaker 2: to be so compassionate that you can talk to a
Speaker 2: rabid Republican Q and honor and make them change their mind.
Speaker 2: I want to know whether you've actually ever accomplished that
Speaker 2: and if you still feel that way.
Speaker 1: I do feel like that, but actually I did do it.
Speaker 1: I mean that nice man in Queer I season nine
Speaker 1: that I said like the crop failure thing too. I
Speaker 1: always he had what was his name? He had such
Speaker 1: a funny like dealer name that I forget. Anyway, he
Speaker 1: was like a very like very ardent Trump's I wasn't
Speaker 1: able to change his mind. I only had like a
Speaker 1: few hours with him, but I would have needed like
Speaker 1: three months at least. But I think my compassion is
Speaker 1: is it's definitely a one. I think I've maybe changed
Speaker 1: some mag of people's minds online maybe, But I do
Speaker 1: have the compassion and I do still feel like that
Speaker 1: because I do think that people that are supporting and
Speaker 1: are actively supporting Trump's agenda now, I do think that
Speaker 1: they've been exposed to really intense misinformation around undocumented immigrants,
Speaker 1: around trans people, around around women, around abortion, around so
Speaker 1: many things. You know, the fact that we have so
Speaker 1: many people that think that it's snap benefits that are
Speaker 1: draining the economy, and not the fact that we've like
Speaker 1: given eleven billion dollars of like tax subsidies to Elon Musk.
Speaker 1: It's like, it's definitely the billionaires. It's definitely not people
Speaker 1: on snap benefits.
Speaker 2: And as we've kind of discussed, when you choose to
Speaker 2: be a public person and choose to try to use
Speaker 2: that public platform to be a force for good, that's
Speaker 2: big work. It can be exhausting and taxing work. And
Speaker 2: I can only imagine that one of the ways beyond
Speaker 2: group fitness, that you've also really refill that cup and
Speaker 2: kind of keep your yourself safe and keep that battery
Speaker 2: charged is with your beautiful husband, Mark, who I got
Speaker 2: to meet for like twenty seconds when he was setting
Speaker 2: up your microphone. There you got pandemic married. You've been
Speaker 2: married for five years now. Congratulations, Thank you. How did
Speaker 2: you know Mark is the one?
Speaker 1: I just I don't know. I just did and it
Speaker 1: felt like it was the right time, and so we
Speaker 1: did and it was. I'm just so proud of our
Speaker 1: relationship because neither of us have ever been in a
Speaker 1: relationship this long, and we've navigated so much like difficult stuff,
Speaker 1: and we've just it's everything's only ever brought us closer.
Speaker 1: So I'm really just so proud of us.
Speaker 2: And your animal family has been a really big part
Speaker 2: of your life. Yourself is an animal parent, has always
Speaker 2: been a really big part of who you are. I
Speaker 2: can relate to that a lot. I've got my little
Speaker 2: dog next to me right here, and so who are
Speaker 2: your animal family at the moment?
Speaker 1: We have an age order. We have Larry, Eliza, Mean, Nellie, Matilda, Genevieve, Elton, Baggy, Rose, George.
Speaker 3: And these are dogs, cats and chickens.
Speaker 1: No, those are all just the cats and dogs are dogs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we do still have chickens. A few of them have
Speaker 1: like passed away, and those were really like more of
Speaker 1: like Marx Department than my department. So I don't know
Speaker 1: who's like currently still like laying the eggs back there.
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's good I didn't quiz you on the
Speaker 2: name and age of all of your chickens.
Speaker 1: Yeah I would have. Yeah, I'm not that's more Mars department.
Speaker 1: I don't. I get scared to go down there, but
Speaker 1: I do eat the eggs.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, no, fair enough.
Speaker 2: You know, with how you are and how many different
Speaker 2: projects you have going on at any given time. I'm
Speaker 2: curious to know what home mode really feels like when
Speaker 2: it's you and Mark and your fifty eleven pets. What's
Speaker 2: the rhythm of your day, what's the rhythm of your life?
Speaker 1: Well, we love Fortnite. We're like big gamers, so we
Speaker 1: My favorite thing would be wake up, go to Pilate's,
Speaker 1: come home, take the dogs to the dog park, like,
Speaker 1: make breakfast, like on a day off, make breakfast, go upstairs,
Speaker 1: play Fortnite for like three hours, come downstairs, put stuff away,
Speaker 1: then get ready, then go meet our friends to do
Speaker 1: something cute, like at brunch or something, or like a
Speaker 1: like a like a I do. I just love an
Speaker 1: early dinner on a day off so that I can
Speaker 1: come back home and play Fortnite from like six to
Speaker 1: like ten, and then I'll watch like realistically, like four
Speaker 1: minutes of bake Off before I fall asleep at like
Speaker 1: ten oh.
Speaker 3: Four, Like a perfect day.
Speaker 2: I also never in a million years would have guessed
Speaker 2: that you were a Fortnite gamer.
Speaker 3: And I love this.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love Fornite. I have a whole set, I
Speaker 1: have a whole bit and hot and healed about gaming
Speaker 1: and about the ways in which I'm gaming has allowed
Speaker 1: me to heal and find and connect more healthily to
Speaker 1: some of my anger.
Speaker 2: Which is a perfect segue because in these remaining minutes
Speaker 2: that I have with you, and you've been so generous
Speaker 2: with your time, Jonathan, Hot and healed, Hot and healed, baby,
Speaker 2: coming down under. You'll be here next year. What can
Speaker 2: we expect from this show? Where did this work and
Speaker 2: this creation come from in you? What are you bringing
Speaker 2: to the stage? Why do we all need to be there?
Speaker 1: So in twenty twenty four, I was used in a
Speaker 1: pro Trump campaign ad that they spent like two hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty million dollars on that has this clip of
Speaker 1: me meeting Kamala Harris and the voiceover says She's for
Speaker 1: they them, and Trump's for you. And so that was
Speaker 1: a very I just could in twenty twenty four, I
Speaker 1: just could not catch a break. Okay, the only break
Speaker 1: that I caught was that we won gold back in
Speaker 1: the women's team gymnastics. But other than that, like, it
Speaker 1: was just a rough year. And so really all of
Speaker 1: this set is born out of the election fallout what
Speaker 1: I learned in twenty twenty four, and it's about healing
Speaker 1: through that and kind of what I think that we
Speaker 1: need to do as a society to heal together. And
Speaker 1: then it's also been and it's also about my healing journey,
Speaker 1: Like I looked totally different than I did when I
Speaker 1: first started this tour and that it was a total accident.
Speaker 1: And it was also because I was healing from impulse
Speaker 1: spending because I couldn't keep impulse spending bigger clothes, so
Speaker 1: I had to figure out to fit in my old clothes,
Speaker 1: which is like why I really got on GLP ones.
Speaker 1: So I'm just kind of going over all of that
Speaker 1: and all of the election fallout and really what I
Speaker 1: think we need to do to heal pasts, Like really
Speaker 1: what this this set is like dealing with. It's like
Speaker 1: it's giving a lot of gender. I'm also getting into
Speaker 1: like like talking to like white people in like a
Speaker 1: new fun way and a way that I have it before,
Speaker 1: where I'm just trying to like cause I know we
Speaker 1: can be better. I know we got this. It's very
Speaker 1: cheerleader base, but it's also like just fun and I
Speaker 1: think it's it's the most like clever and I think
Speaker 1: political comedy that I've ever done, and it's the most
Speaker 1: I think really being connected to our speech is so
Speaker 1: important right now, and so healing is really in the
Speaker 1: center of it. But I've had a really unique experience
Speaker 1: being featured on this campaign ad and having the chance
Speaker 1: to meet Vice President former Vice presid Kamala Harris last year,
Speaker 1: and so it's really kind of just breaking down what
Speaker 1: I went through in twenty twenty four and how I've
Speaker 1: healed from it, and what I think we can all
Speaker 1: do to kind of come together better. But it really
Speaker 1: is a fun show. And I would also say Australia
Speaker 1: inspired me so much. And when I came down the
Speaker 1: last time to do Fun and Slutty that it it
Speaker 1: got a whole well or or was it Road to
Speaker 1: Beijing or was it No, it was a MAJORI living
Speaker 1: room Olympian the last time I did Australia, it was
Speaker 1: imaginary living room Olympian. And when I came to do that,
Speaker 1: I did this bit that bombed in Sydney and I said,
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm HIV positive. This was my second pandemic,
Speaker 1: and no one in this auditorium laughed, like no one
Speaker 1: laughed and because I just they didn't have permission yet
Speaker 1: to laugh. Like I just think that I just I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't I think my build up to
Speaker 1: the joke was like wrong, I just had not practiced
Speaker 1: it enough. So then I was like, oh, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I did you know what I'd stand me? OHI sage,
Speaker 1: ii'm hei CHOI V positive. This is my second pandemic.
Speaker 1: And then I literally let everyone a chant where I
Speaker 1: was like, say it wins may give me a hih
Speaker 1: And then I was like hih and I was like,
Speaker 1: give me an oi oi and I was like, give
Speaker 1: me a may. What's this spell? And then we literally
Speaker 1: chanted HIV and then I was like, you guys, was
Speaker 1: with you? Why are we chanting HIV? So I totally
Speaker 1: made it funny and we made it work. But I
Speaker 1: ended up taking that experience and I worked that into
Speaker 1: the show and so for the rest of my tour
Speaker 1: after that, I did a call and repete of like
Speaker 1: hate choive heighte CHOI ve like in an Australian accent,
Speaker 1: yes with the h and even so much so that
Speaker 1: in my first special that came out last year, Fun
Speaker 1: and Sluttie, I like tell that story and it's it's like,
Speaker 1: so in this set will be more polished for you guys.
Speaker 3: So we've played our little part as Australian.
Speaker 1: It was a big part. I love a big part,
Speaker 1: and I'm so excited to come back.
Speaker 2: Oh, we're so excited to have you. You're such a
Speaker 2: deeply funny person. You are a great comedian, and I
Speaker 2: think it's because almost to exactly the story you just shared.
Speaker 2: You know, your comedy is rooted in compassion, it's rooted
Speaker 2: in lived experience, it's rooted in a real desire to
Speaker 2: help people move, even if it's just incremental, you know,
Speaker 2: one more inch towards loving themselves more. I think really
Speaker 2: is where you begin and where your work really begins.
Speaker 2: So we're very excited to have you. It's remarkable to me.
Speaker 2: You know, we covered a lot of ground and a
Speaker 2: lot of quick pivots in this conversation because at only
Speaker 2: thirty eight, which is crazy, because you've.
Speaker 3: Lived so much life.
Speaker 2: I just find your story so full, so astonishing, and
Speaker 2: I'm so excited for the next chapters, the next books,
Speaker 2: the next poor all of it me too.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your time. This has been
Speaker 3: such a joy.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: Friends.
Speaker 2: That was Jonathan van Ness, and I'm so grateful for
Speaker 2: how open and generous they were in this conversation. Jonathan
Speaker 2: has lived through things that would have broken many people,
Speaker 2: and yet they've found a way to turn their pain
Speaker 2: into purpose, humor, joy and connection. Speaking with them as
Speaker 2: a reminder that recovery isn't linear, identity isn't fixed, and
Speaker 2: healing can be as complex.
Speaker 3: As it is beautiful.
Speaker 2: And if you want to experience Jonathan in person, and
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you? Their Hot and Healed tour kicks off
Speaker 2: in Brisbane on the twenty fifth of February and then
Speaker 2: travels all around Australia. For tickets and all the details,
Speaker 2: check the show notes. The executive producer of No Filter
Speaker 2: is myself Naima Brown, The senior producers pre player audio
Speaker 2: editing by Tina Matalov with video editing by Josh green
Speaker 2: I guest hosted today's episode, but you'll be excited to
Speaker 2: know that Kate Lankerbrook will be back next Monday with
Speaker 2: an all new episode of No Filter.
Speaker 1: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast is recorded on