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Speaker 1: It's twenty twenty three and Daryl Gardner pulls up in

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Speaker 1: front of the supermarket in his old hometown. It's place

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Speaker 1: where he experienced and witnessed unimaginable violence. But he's different now,

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Speaker 1: a dad of four with a loving wife, a meaningful

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Speaker 1: and impactful career. He got out. But as he heads

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Speaker 1: to the refrigerators to grab some drinks, he notices an

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Speaker 1: old man at the counter. He looks vaguely familiar. The

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Speaker 1: man glances up, seems to recognize Daryl, and quickly shuffles

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Speaker 1: out of the shop. It's then that he realizes who

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Speaker 1: it is. His mother's abuser, the one who made their

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Speaker 1: life a living hell, the one who sent him on

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Speaker 1: a path to violence himself. Daryl places his drinks on

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Speaker 1: the counter, he walks towards the door where the man

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Speaker 1: has just exited. He can feel the anger, the violence,

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Speaker 1: the old hymn, It's all there, bubbling up to the surface.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations,

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Speaker 1: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking

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Speaker 1: to the people who know the most about them. As

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Speaker 1: Darrell looked out the door of the supermarket, he spotted

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Speaker 1: his family in the car, his loving family, a home

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Speaker 1: that didn't know violence. He would never go back to

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Speaker 1: that life. He let the man go and he calmly

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Speaker 1: paid for his drinks. Darrel not only came from a

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Speaker 1: violent childhood, he became an abuser himself. He pushed, grabbed, hit, choked.

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Speaker 1: He was a violent, dangerous man and just a warning.

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Speaker 1: This conversation contains vivid descriptions of violence, particularly the sexual

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Speaker 1: violence he witnessed in his childhood. The courts gave Daryl

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Speaker 1: a second chance, and he's one of the ones who

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Speaker 1: actually used it now. Daryl, a mental health clinician with

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Speaker 1: twenty years experience, runs Rolling with the Punchers, a program

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Speaker 1: that provides counseling, group therapy, rehabilitation, education and support to men,

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Speaker 1: women and families. He started a free boxing program called

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Speaker 1: Gloves Up for Change for women and girls, raising awareness

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Speaker 1: around domestic and family violence and providing a safe space

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Speaker 1: to heal, connect and build confidence. Darryl's story is obviously

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Speaker 1: one of hope. He turned his life around, but it

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Speaker 1: does present an interesting moral and social dilemma. We keep

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Speaker 1: seeing our courts giving men a second chance, a second

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Speaker 1: chance that leaves women dead It's a tale as old

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Speaker 1: as time. It's a tale we tell all too often

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Speaker 1: here on this podcast. So what does Daryl think, How

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Speaker 1: do we really address men's violence against women? He joins us. Now, Darryl,

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Speaker 1: welcome to True Crime Conversations today. You're a mental health advocate.

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Speaker 1: You've helped thousands of men and women kind of move

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Speaker 1: away from violent situations. But if I was to meet

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Speaker 1: you when you were in your mid twenties, if I

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Speaker 1: was sitting across from that man who were.

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Speaker 2: You, probably wouldn't have been a time where we would

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Speaker 2: have been in the same room. Jimma, and thank you

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Speaker 2: for having me on today and being interested in my

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Speaker 2: story and what it can bring to the podcast and

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Speaker 2: to other people out there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine there would have been a time where

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Speaker 2: I would have been sitting in an interview doing a

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Speaker 2: podcast in the my mid twenties, probably the only interviews

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Speaker 2: I was doing at that time. We were around some

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Speaker 2: of the troubles I was in or facing or things

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Speaker 2: like that. But I would probably think I would be

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Speaker 2: completely different to now, or No, I would have been

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Speaker 2: completely different. I was still angry and really immature and

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Speaker 2: definitely not open to being accountable for conversations like the

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Speaker 2: one that we're probably going to have today.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the start. You were born in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three into quite a violent situation from the start.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about your early childhood what that

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Speaker 1: looked like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not a problem. So I was born in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three. My mom was oh, I say fifteen

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Speaker 2: when she had me, but I do the maths. Probably

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Speaker 2: I think she was sixteen, Not that it matters too much,

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Speaker 2: but mom came from a really dysfunctional family. Her dad

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Speaker 2: passed away when she was little, so she grew up

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Speaker 2: with her mum and two younger sisters, so she was

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Speaker 2: not only in the position of caring for her mum,

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Speaker 2: but also for her younger sisters as well. Her mum

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Speaker 2: was quite unwell, so when she came home and said

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Speaker 2: that she was pregnant, that news wasn't received well. In fact,

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Speaker 2: her mom tried to make my mom miscarry. So that

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Speaker 2: was probably my earliest exposure of violence in utero. After that,

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Speaker 2: Mum and I moved out, and probably around the age

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Speaker 2: of one or two. You know, I guess I always

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Speaker 2: liked to when I'm trying to relay this thirty people

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Speaker 2: that maybe they don't understand talk about learning violence as

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Speaker 2: a first language, and that's really where it escalated even further.

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Speaker 2: My mum met her partner at the time when I

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Speaker 2: was one or two, and if he hadn't had the

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Speaker 2: benefit of Google or social media things like that back then,

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Speaker 2: would have been able to research him and find out

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Speaker 2: that he was pretty violent, quite violent himself. So he

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Speaker 2: came on the scene really quickly, moved in with Mum

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Speaker 2: and I really quickly. Now, my mom had a really

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Speaker 2: tough life herself, so the first time she had shown

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Speaker 2: any love based on her attachment needs, she's sort of

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Speaker 2: blossom to that and opened up to having although this

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Speaker 2: man was showing love or masquerading us love, which was

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Speaker 2: really violent, controlling behavior. He moved in with us really quickly,

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Speaker 2: and abuse I just skyrocketed from verbal abuse to physical

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Speaker 2: abuse and then to what was, you know, really grading

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Speaker 2: and probably the hardest thing for Mum was sexual abuse,

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Speaker 2: really violent rapes, really regular when that was interspersed with

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Speaker 2: the verbal and physical abuse. So it was like living

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Speaker 2: in a war zone almost. It's like looking for landmines

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Speaker 2: all the time. So probably the age about three or

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Speaker 2: four I guess I become expert at body language and

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Speaker 2: reading people. And you know, I could tell by the

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Speaker 2: way that he would put a cup down or shut

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Speaker 2: a door, or you know, pick something the art, whether

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Speaker 2: there was an explosion about to come. It's like a

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Speaker 2: thunderstorm coming in on the horizon. And you know, often

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Speaker 2: people would say to my mum, you know, his son's

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Speaker 2: so well mannered, and he's so so polite, and you know,

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Speaker 2: you've obviously raised him really well. When I was little,

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Speaker 2: and I was really terrified to to make a noise

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Speaker 2: because like a noise me, you were seen and meet

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Speaker 2: you in the firing line as well. So during that

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Speaker 2: time I was getting hurt a lot, and it was

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Speaker 2: hurt through what I saw as well, but you know,

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Speaker 2: it was being physically hurt a lot as a as

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Speaker 2: a toddler as well. And you've seen some really brutal

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Speaker 2: stuff that really shaped that or idea for me that

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Speaker 2: not only violence is a first language, but violence was everywhere.

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Speaker 2: And I guess I thought that's what men did as well,

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Speaker 2: because that's all i'd seen.

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Speaker 1: He was in your life till you were around five,

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Speaker 1: if I'm right, I mean a four or five year

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Speaker 1: old has memories, But do you what is your first

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Speaker 1: memories of the violence, because you were one, two, three

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Speaker 1: when this was happening.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so my first memories of the violence, and I

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Speaker 2: guess they come as I've gone through therapy myself over

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Speaker 2: the years, I've opened up more of those probably repressed.

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Speaker 3: Memories, you know.

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Speaker 2: And it was my earliest memories were of violent suggestions

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Speaker 2: in the sense of there was always things laying around,

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Speaker 2: like guns and knives and things like that, and you know,

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Speaker 2: they've always been sort of waved around and brandished and

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Speaker 2: in a real threatening, like a menacing manner. One of

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Speaker 2: my earliest memories of violence was Mum was looking after

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Speaker 2: two kids. One was the same age as me, were

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Speaker 2: probably both three, and the other little boy's little sister

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Speaker 2: was only about six weeks old, and Mum was looking

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Speaker 2: after both of these kids as well. And during that time,

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Speaker 2: I think my mom had gone to the church to

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Speaker 2: try and get some help. She was desperate for some help,

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Speaker 2: so she joined a church and one of the ladies

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Speaker 2: from the church came around to the house to try

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Speaker 2: and help her, and I could see him watching mum

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Speaker 2: through the window and getting it more and more angry.

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Speaker 3: You know, because she.

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Speaker 2: Was dared to talk to someone about the abuse what

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Speaker 2: was happening in the home. And when she came back

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Speaker 2: down to the house, and I've talken to Mum about

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Speaker 2: this since, and Mma actually thought that because she was

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Speaker 2: nursing this little six week old baby, that.

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Speaker 3: He wouldn't hit her because she was hiding a baby.

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Speaker 2: But like every benchmark of violence that he impacted on

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Speaker 2: our family or inflicted on our family, Mom and I,

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Speaker 2: you know, that could the worse sort of get but

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Speaker 2: it would always get worse. And on this day came

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Speaker 2: back inside the little flat we lived in and he

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Speaker 2: started carrying on and abusing Mom verbally, and then he

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Speaker 2: hit her, and that time he fractured an orbital bone

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Speaker 2: or jaw. It was really severe, and Mum talks about

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Speaker 2: that now, and she said, probably harder for her than

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Speaker 2: the getting hurt, getting hit with such severity and force,

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Speaker 2: was the fact that the little baby and the baby's

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Speaker 2: brother were really crying, really hysterical, because I hadn't seen

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Speaker 2: that before. But she said, probably one of the hardest

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Speaker 2: things for her was the fact that as a three

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Speaker 2: year old, she said, I didn't even blink or flinch

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Speaker 2: because it was just normal, like I was just normal,

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Speaker 2: you know, And that was one of the earliest memories,

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Speaker 2: I guess. One of the other ones where I was

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Speaker 2: a victim was at the swimming pool one day and

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Speaker 2: I think we ran to try to get away or

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Speaker 2: something like that, and what would happen was this like

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Speaker 2: sort of pursuit pattern where we'd go away, he would

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Speaker 2: find us. He'd come back and say, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not you again. I love you, and that would

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Speaker 2: very quickly graduate too.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: The reason that hurt your last one was because you

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Speaker 2: did this and you did that. But in that really

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Speaker 2: fleeting moment of like I'm going to do everything I

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Speaker 2: can to get you back and control you guys again,

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Speaker 2: he would be nice in the sense of maybe shout

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Speaker 2: dinner or like hot chips or something. And on this

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Speaker 2: occasion it took us to a swimming pool, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I remember I couldn't swim. I was done, you little,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't go to have those safe experiences that

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Speaker 2: my own kids have where they can go to swimming lessons,

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Speaker 2: they play footy as kids, things like that. I didn't

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Speaker 2: get to have those experiences, so I couldn't swim, and

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Speaker 2: I remember him telling me to get in the pool,

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Speaker 2: and I was really scared.

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Speaker 3: But in his eyes, I remember this really vividly.

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Speaker 2: In his I could almost see this like you're being ungrateful,

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Speaker 2: like I've brought you down in the pool and I've

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Speaker 2: paid for it, and I'm a really good step dad

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Speaker 2: and you're just being like a shit of a kid

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Speaker 2: and ungrateful and now I'm going to punish you. Because

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Speaker 2: his family were there too, so I was like he

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Speaker 2: was embarrassed that someone would define him by not getting

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Speaker 2: in the pool. And so I remember kicking me in

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Speaker 2: the pool, like kicking me in the back, and I

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Speaker 2: fell in the pool and I was starting to drown.

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Speaker 2: I was getting really scared, you know. On he pulled memory,

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Speaker 2: pulling me out by the hand, giving me a bashing

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Speaker 2: in front of his family and other people that are

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Speaker 2: at the swimming pool, and I just remember that message

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Speaker 2: was really clear, like if I can do this to

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Speaker 2: you here or everyone's watching, my mom, poor mum was

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Speaker 2: on the town. She was terrified, So imagine what I'll

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Speaker 2: do when behind closed doors. And I was send a

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Speaker 2: message to me to behave be good, you know, not

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Speaker 2: be a good kid, but also sent a message to

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Speaker 2: my mom, Like, I can hurt you, but I also

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Speaker 2: hurt him, but I don't care.

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Speaker 1: You know, even the fact that you have such a

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Speaker 1: vivid memory as a three year old. I mean I

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Speaker 1: think back to when I was three, and I honestly

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Speaker 1: can't remember much. It's like all a bit of a blur.

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Speaker 1: But you have these really strong, vivid memories of things

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Speaker 1: because they were so traumatic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, those are things that I pushed down for a

228
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Speaker 2: long time, and I've started to come out in the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years. In a way, I'm glad they

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Speaker 2: come out now because you're able to work work through

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Speaker 2: that and get to peace with those parts of your

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Speaker 2: life that had always been a bit confusing.

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Speaker 1: Your mum eventually left him and there was an incident

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Speaker 1: where he found your house and entered your house illegally.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so mum had left, and you know, we're talking

237
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Speaker 2: about now, probably about nine point eighty seven rural in

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Speaker 2: New South Wales, place called Aubrey, which is a pretty

239
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Speaker 2: big regional center, but probably not a huge amount of

240
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Speaker 2: support for single moms back then. It's probably not a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of support now, to be honest, but things

242
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Speaker 2: are different. You know, forty odd years ago as well,

243
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Speaker 2: but Mum had managed to know My mom was really

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Speaker 2: courageous in the sense that I should always try should

245
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Speaker 2: I was try and get just away, you'd never never

246
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Speaker 2: give up, which was, you know, an example of the

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Speaker 2: character that she had despite all the hardships that she

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Speaker 2: had faced herself in her short life. I liken it

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Speaker 2: to two kids trying to run away, because my mom

250
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Speaker 2: was just a little kid as well, you know. But

251
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Speaker 2: we've gotten away and Mom was in the tub taking

252
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Speaker 2: a bath and I was think I was asleep, and

253
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Speaker 2: he came in through the window and he you know.

254
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Speaker 3: The sexual stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I've learned more about this over the years reading

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Speaker 2: books that my mum has written. My mom became an

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Speaker 2: academic in the social work field and a really strong

258
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Speaker 2: advocate for survivors of intimate partner sexual violence and has

259
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Speaker 2: written many books. And you know, I've read those books,

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Speaker 2: and it's good because I understand violent men more and

261
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 2: you know, understand different sort of counseling dynamics and social

262
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 2: work theories and things like that through reading them. But unfortunately,

263
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,520
Speaker 2: reading those books probably unlock a lot of things. Reminded

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00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,440
Speaker 2: me of a lot of things I hadn't never spoken

265
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Speaker 2: to my mom about, or probably it had never really dealt

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00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,600
Speaker 2: with or spoken to anyone that had just repressed and

267
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 2: locked away. And this was one of those things when

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Speaker 2: you think about sexual assault and rape and I think

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Speaker 2: any level of that is is horrific, and that's absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: But what had happened was that there was like this

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Speaker 2: grated exposure to to sexual violence, like it had just

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Speaker 2: continually gotten worse and worse, you know, to the point

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Speaker 2: where you know, he would, you know, piss on my

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Speaker 2: mum and do all these horrific things to her just

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Speaker 2: to degrade her, you know, more and more and more,

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Speaker 2: and you know, threaten to try and make her have

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Speaker 2: sex with these friends, and you know, rape her with

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Speaker 2: a gunpoint and all this awful stuff. And on this

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Speaker 2: night he comes through the window and was raping her

280
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Speaker 2: mum while she took her.

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Speaker 3: Bath, knife point.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think to myself now that back

283
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 2: then people had to know what was happening because we

284
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,160
Speaker 2: were in social housing or housing commission. Now the walls

285
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,720
Speaker 2: you know, made out of paper basically, and people would

286
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,000
Speaker 2: have heard what was happening, but no one, nobody got involved,

287
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Speaker 2: No one helped us or tried to save us, or

288
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 2: intervened or anything like that. They mind their own business

289
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,440
Speaker 2: and thought, that's not any of my business. Or maybe

290
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Speaker 2: I just make care. I don't know, but I don't

291
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,720
Speaker 2: know what happened on this night, but something happened in

292
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Speaker 2: that in that.

293
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Speaker 3: He got disturbed.

294
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Speaker 2: I remember trying to disturb, you know, get in between them,

295
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 2: or try and wedge myself in between my mum and

296
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 2: him when that was happening, because I didn't care when

297
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,560
Speaker 2: I was getting bashed when I was a little kid,

298
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 2: a little toddler to honestly, I didn't care. I just

299
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,400
Speaker 2: all I wanted was give my mom a break for

300
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,680
Speaker 2: a couple of minutes. I just just wanted her to

301
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 2: have a break. She had so many bashings, so much

302
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, things like that, even when she was a kid.

303
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,520
Speaker 2: She was a victim of child sexual assault. And I

304
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,400
Speaker 2: obviously I didn't know that as a toddler, but I

305
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 2: knew what was happening in that moment, and when these

306
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,800
Speaker 2: things would happen, I just would do anything to give

307
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,920
Speaker 2: her a reprieve. And Mum would say, you know, I

308
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 2: didn't hated the fact that as a three or four

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00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,360
Speaker 2: year old, you knew how to talk like a almost

310
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Speaker 2: like a man. And I think now when I look

311
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 2: back at it was my way of if he was

312
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 2: getting angry at Mum. I would start to say things

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Speaker 2: to him like, you know, you know, I want to

314
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Speaker 2: kill you, and I grow up, and I fucking bashi,

315
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,360
Speaker 2: and you're a dog and things like that and the

316
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,360
Speaker 2: things that I'd heard because I knew it would make

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Speaker 2: him angry, so I would talk to him like that

318
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Speaker 2: as a toddler. So then he would direct those bashings

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Speaker 2: to me. I didn't mind, because it gives my mom

320
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Speaker 2: a break for three four five minutes, maybe a day

321
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 2: even will be the best outcome. And on that night saying,

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00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,120
Speaker 2: you know, I wanted this. I didn't want this to

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00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 2: happen to my mom anymore. So I remember trying to

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00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 2: wedge in between them and you know, getting on you

325
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,400
Speaker 2: know a lot of those occasions and getting hurt myself,

326
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,920
Speaker 2: but at least it broke up that abuse was something

327
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,639
Speaker 2: to my mum, make you very chance to run away.

328
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,119
Speaker 2: Even if she left me, I didn't care, just get away.

329
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,200
Speaker 2: I wanted her to get away because I hated her crying.

330
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Speaker 2: I hated to see her hurt all the time, and anyway,

331
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 2: on this night, we just he must have been disturbed

332
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,920
Speaker 2: more significantly than a little kid disturbing him and took off.

333
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,320
Speaker 2: And on that night or around that night, he ended

334
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,119
Speaker 2: up murdering someone else. Yeah, as far as I can recall,

335
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,360
Speaker 2: it was the same night. And I pieced together articles

336
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,479
Speaker 2: from the newspaper and things like that. But he and

337
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 2: when I look at the chronolog at the time when

338
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 2: I share my story, I often share an article from

339
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 2: when he was sentenced in the Supreme Court, and that

340
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 2: article was from nine to eighty eight, and so I

341
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,040
Speaker 2: was five then. So he'd killed someone in a drunken

342
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,440
Speaker 2: or drug fueled rage, they said in the newspaper. And

343
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,400
Speaker 2: this is the level of violency was capable of day

344
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 2: this dismembered this guy chopped his head off and chucked

345
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,159
Speaker 2: his body down a mind shaft and then one of

346
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,840
Speaker 2: the co accused went back. Later on, he ended up

347
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,320
Speaker 2: going to jail for that for nine years for manslaughter.

348
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,119
Speaker 3: And I think that that was a level of violence

349
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:20,000
Speaker 3: he was capable of.

350
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,480
Speaker 2: And in the article in the paper when the judge

351
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:31,240
Speaker 2: is sentencing him, such a such a weird statement to

352
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,199
Speaker 2: read when you live through what we lived through. And

353
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,560
Speaker 2: then you have the judge saying that the murder was

354
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:43,400
Speaker 2: not premeditated and that the accused had shown a great

355
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,160
Speaker 2: deal of remorse during the court proceedings. And I think

356
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:48,879
Speaker 2: if you had to come to live in our house

357
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,640
Speaker 2: for thirty seconds, he wasn't capable of remorse.

358
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Speaker 3: So he got that judge got that wrong.

359
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing that you and your mum survived him.

360
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and.

361
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,920
Speaker 2: He gave him further when he got out of jail

362
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,200
Speaker 2: years later, my mom saw him down at the river

363
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 2: having a swim, and he judge that he capable of

364
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 2: was and from shoulder blade to shoulder blade, he's got tattoos.

365
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,439
Speaker 2: That says head Hunter's remorsefully, he's just a yeah, just

366
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 2: a pig.

367
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

368
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,439
Speaker 1: Your mom then met a nice man. Ken. Tell me

369
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: about that period of your life, because he, in your words,

370
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,199
Speaker 1: was kind and fair and loving. Were you able to

371
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 1: enjoy that?

372
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 3: Yeah?

373
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 2: So my stepfather Ken, I still call him my dad.

374
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 2: He's this year unfortunately passed away teen teen, thank you

375
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,680
Speaker 2: ten years this year.

376
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,199
Speaker 3: And yeah, he.

377
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 2: If you talk about the role models in terms of

378
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 2: the men that I'd seen growing up. So my dad,

379
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 2: my biological dad, he wasn't really around.

380
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 3: He was violent. I was a violent towards Mum.

381
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,399
Speaker 2: It's funny because I talked to my dad now about

382
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 2: sharing my story and things like that, and he still

383
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,239
Speaker 2: lives in the small country town where I'm from, and

384
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 2: it is pretty quiet character my dad. And you'll say,

385
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 2: you know, I'm glad you're sharing your story. But he said,

386
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 2: sometimes I think people think you're talking about me when

387
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:18,400
Speaker 2: I went to another guy.

388
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 3: So anyway, my dad wasn't really around.

389
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 2: And then we had the other guy for a few years,

390
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,919
Speaker 2: and then Mum met Ken and he was a remarkable person, Jemmy.

391
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,439
Speaker 3: He was a really beautiful man. You know.

392
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 2: It showed my mum that love was possible, that it

393
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 2: wasn't tied to control, that relationships could be healthy and

394
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 2: happy and safe, and also that you know, they came.

395
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,360
Speaker 2: He was ten years older than mum, so I think

396
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 2: he met. Mum was twenty one and he was thirty one,

397
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,199
Speaker 2: I think, And they came from different lifestyles and so

398
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,439
Speaker 2: they clushed on some things. But I always remember him

399
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 2: showing Mum as we're growing up that like conflict could

400
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 2: be safe and you know, you could resolve things without

401
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 2: having to resort to violence or running away or things

402
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,120
Speaker 2: like that, and he wasn't going to hurt her. And

403
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 2: you know, he was a really hard worker, loving, caring

404
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: for really quite firm, but not scary. He was a

405
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 2: safe just a safe man. And we're also lucky to

406
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: have him.

407
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: Mum, especially you yourself became a violent man. So do

408
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: you think that Ken's influence wasn't enough?

409
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 3: I think that.

410
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: That's a really good question, Jimmy. No one's ever asked

411
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 2: me that before. I think his influence was absolutely enough.

412
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 2: But if we look at it, like one hundred percent

413
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 2: of an influence trying to come in to a young man,

414
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 2: I was probably only open to receiving thirty percent of

415
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 2: that because seventy percent of my brain or body or

416
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 2: whatever was still locked in like, well, this is what's

417
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 2: happened in the last four or five years.

418
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 3: Is that what meant? And how come nobody's talking to

419
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 3: me about it?

420
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: So, Mum, when she met Dad, she went off and

421
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 2: did a lot of you know, went and went through

422
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: a lot of therapy, and I received a lot of

423
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 2: support and things like that to work through the really

424
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: horrific experiences she'd been through. And I'm really grateful that

425
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 2: she had the opportunity to do that. She had this

426
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 2: really beautiful life her and dad together. The spot's still

427
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 2: carrying a lot of trauma. But I guess I kind of,

428
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 2: I say, got forgotten about almost or maybe Mum thought

429
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 2: I didn't remember those things, but I did, And so

430
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 2: I still had a lot of that swelling around in

431
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: my head.

432
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I know that boxing became an outlet

433
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 1: for you really young as well.

434
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 3: Ten Yeah, probably about ten, yeah, ten or eleven.

435
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: Yep, Yeah, how did that help you?

436
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

437
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 2: Probably by the age of about ten, I was getting

438
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 2: a little bit confused or probably a bit more confused

439
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 2: about things Genma, whatuld have happened when I was a kid,

440
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 2: and probably wanted to understand a bit more about my

441
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: own dad and where he was and things like that.

442
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: And I haven't ever really spoken to my mom about

443
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 2: this before, but I remember the age of around ten

444
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: ten niche sweeping around in my mom and dad's room

445
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 2: and maybe looking for Christmas presents or something, and come

446
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 2: across some paperwork that showed that. While so I probably

447
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 2: should have prefaced a little bit of the story, I

448
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: don't share this part much because it's not really more

449
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: story to tell. But during that last sexual assault where

450
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 2: he came in through the window and raped, my mom

451
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 2: became pregnant.

452
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 3: And she had a daughter. And when I was.

453
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 2: Creeping around in their room that day looking for presents

454
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: or whatever, I found some paperwork that had showed that

455
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: my stepdad had like legally adopted my sister while or

456
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 2: her biological father was still in prison. So I guess

457
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 2: I probably started to think a lot at that stage,

458
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: why would you not want me to be the same

459
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 2: or have the same name, and things like that, because

460
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 2: I didn't really see my dad a whole lot during

461
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: my childhood either, And I started to even thinking at

462
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: that time, maybe you don't want to do that with me,

463
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 2: because it must probably because I let mom get hurt

464
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 2: and I couldn't save her, and I started to think.

465
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 3: All these things. You know, maybe maybe my mom doesn't

466
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: my mom, and my mom doesn't like.

467
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 2: Me either because I let her get hurt when I

468
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: was a kid, and you know, maybe she probably even thinks,

469
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: you know, if I didn't have you, I could have

470
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 2: gotten a way easier, but I had to cut you

471
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: around all the time, and you know, my mom wasn't

472
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 2: doing anything to just to demonstrate those feelings. But as

473
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: a ten year old, I started to think jump to

474
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: all those conclusions, and I thought, I don't really not

475
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: to do, you know. I felt like I was a

476
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: bit pretty unloved and I wanted in that moment, So

477
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: I just remember leaving home and getting on my bike

478
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: and ride riding. I didn't know I was going to go,

479
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: but things were pretty heavy at that stage for me. Outwardly,

480
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 2: I was pretty pretty happy, like I preferred to sort

481
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: of hang out on my own, but inside I was

482
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 2: carrying heaps that I just never spoke to anyone about.

483
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: And as fate, I guess fate would have it. Rode

484
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: to the PC y C in Aubury and wandered in

485
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: there and it was just drawn straight. They had basketball

486
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: and all different things happening in there at that same afternoon,

487
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 2: but I was just drawn into the boxing room and

488
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 2: sort of watched. Before I had the confidence to do

489
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: anything or ask anyone any questions. Was watching men's spa

490
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: and box and thinking this is violence, but it was

491
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: it was safe, it was controlled, and I just fell

492
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,120
Speaker 2: in love with the sport straight away and started spending

493
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: a heap of time there, starting a wag school and

494
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: things like that and just go there and hang out.

495
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 3: And you know, my mum had.

496
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: Another couple of kids by that stage. Dad was in

497
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: the truck a lot, and so for me it was

498
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: a place to go and bit of connection as well.

499
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jemma Bath,

500
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Daryl Gardner, mental health clinician and founder

501
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: of Rolling with the Punchers. Up next, Daryl shares his

502
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: journey through violent offending and the moment he chose a

503
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: different path. It sounds like during your childhood there were

504
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: these moments that could have righted your path, like things

505
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: like ken, things like boxing, but you ended up going

506
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: down the violin rute. How did that happen? How do

507
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: you think that kind of spiraled?

508
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: Yes, spiraled pretty quickly after that, Jemma, I don't know what.

509
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: I don't know what was the catalyst for it. But

510
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: I don't know if I started hanging around the boxing

511
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: gym and thinking I was probably a little bit better

512
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: than I was, a bit tougher, a bit or had

513
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: to form this identity of being a young man.

514
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: I'm not one stage, there was.

515
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: You know, some other sexual abuse happening in our extended family,

516
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 2: and I thought it was my responsibility to fix that.

517
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 2: So I did that in as a young teenager, in

518
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: you know, the way that I thought was right. It

519
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: started to become angry about, you know, different things, and

520
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: I guess I felt like I'd asked to go and

521
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: live with my dad a fair bit, but you know,

522
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 2: I hadn't been allowed to go. But then, you know,

523
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 2: I started to and I was really ashamed of it now,

524
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: but started to do the things that I thought when

525
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 2: I was growing I'm never going to do that, I'd

526
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: promise myself, I'm never going to do that. I started,

527
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: you know, pushing my mum around a bit, you know,

528
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: becoming verbally abusive to her to try and get my

529
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 2: not to excuse it, but to try and get my

530
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: own way to go and live with my dad. I

531
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: thought if I could just sabotage this home life by

532
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 2: being an awful young man, then that would make the

533
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: decision for me. And they'd say, well, you can just

534
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: go there because you've been an asshole around the home.

535
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: I started being really disrespectful and rude to Ken, tried

536
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: to fight him a few times, and just hit this

537
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 2: part of my life at about thirteen or fourteen, where

538
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: I was just didn't really know what a man was.

539
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 2: But I was just determined to find this ome way

540
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: of being what I guess I thought a man was.

541
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: And it was so wrong.

542
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: I damaged a lot of relationships and started to use

543
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: violence a lot, even at school and things like that.

544
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: Got to the point where my mum and dad agreed

545
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: for me to go and live with my dad. And

546
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: I've got a good relationship with my dad now, but

547
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: during that time, it was pretty it's pretty crazy.

548
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 3: My dad was. My dad was pretty wild.

549
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: And I saw heaps and you know, more violence, and

550
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: I guess more violence than I'd ever seen before with dad. Yeah,

551
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: lots of lots of drugs, lots of drinking, lots of

552
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: heavy characters coming in and out of our lives. But

553
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: to me, I gravitated towards them. I thought, these guys

554
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: are what a man is. I want to be like them,

555
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: and started to you know, go more and more down

556
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: that path and embrace that idea that being a violent,

557
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: you know, a violent man that used violence at all

558
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: costs was a way to go. And I started to,

559
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: I guess form this like idea that because I'd see

560
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,719
Speaker 2: the people. I'd see what would happen when my dad

561
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: would walk into a room. People would sit up and

562
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: pay attention, people would notice him. He had a presence

563
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: when he'd go into a room, whether we were going

564
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: to a party, whether we're going to a club house,

565
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: or wherever we're going, Like, my dad had a presence,

566
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: and I thought, not, it wasn't a present that I've

567
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: seen now with men that have gained respect in normal ways.

568
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: But at that time, I've seen that, and people were

569
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: scared of him, and even my mates thought he was

570
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: cool and stuff, and I thought, I want to be

571
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: like that, So I'm going to start to do the

572
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: things that he's doing to get like that. But unfortunately

573
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: there's only there's only room for one line on the

574
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: top of the mountains. So my dad and I clashed,

575
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: you know, really badly during those years, and got to

576
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: the point where I decided to move out of his

577
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: house after about three or four years, because that's one

578
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: stage there I thought one of was going to kill

579
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: the other one if I kept getting any worse. But

580
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: that idea of violence and those tastes of violence that

581
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: stuck with me, and I thought, no, this is still

582
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: what a man does, and if anything, it even made

583
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: me more bent or more determined to become more violent

584
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 2: when I left, left, moved away from my dad because

585
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: I wanted to be bad than him, stronger than him,

586
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: tougher than him.

587
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: I wanted.

588
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: I wanted him to be in a room and pay

589
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: attention when I walked in, not the other way around.

590
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: And the only way I knew how to do that

591
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: was to become more violent and use more violence to

592
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: and I hope I would get back to him, and

593
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: then I hope i'd have a chance to cross paths

594
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: with him again in the future and use that violence

595
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: on him as well.

596
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: I've heard you say that you wanted to become a

597
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: monster because monsters didn't get hurt.

598
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 3: That's exactly what I wanted to do.

599
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: I kept going back to those times, times when I

600
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: was a little kid, thinking about being hurt and scared

601
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: and vulnerable, and I thought, if I can as around

602
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: the time that I for my late teens early twenties,

603
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: I knew that the person from our childhood had been

604
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: released from jail again for something else. And not only

605
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: was I forming a plan and to hurt my dad,

606
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: I was forming a I was forming a really well

607
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: thought out plan to kill him. Really yeah, it even

608
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: secured a gun to do it with. I had a plan.

609
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: I knew where I was going to grab him from,

610
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: I knew what Carl was going to stuff him into,

611
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: and I knew exactly what I was going to do.

612
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: And during that process of forming that plan, I decided

613
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: to become a monster, because monsters don't get hurt. And

614
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, if I can go and do this,

615
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: I can write all those wrongs that from when I

616
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: was a kid. Was my stepdad like, was he angry

617
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: at me so I couldn't protect mom? Did I let

618
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: mom down by not being able to protect her? Did

619
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: I let my little sister down because I couldn't stop

620
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: what happened to her? I set all this right by

621
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: just by doing that. And to even go down that

622
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 2: path of becoming what I'd call a monster, now have

623
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: to get, you know, big. And so I started to

624
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: abuse drugs and antabotics, steroids, started to use amphetamines daily,

625
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, so smoking ice, anything that would.

626
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 3: Anything that will blunt any.

627
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: Thoughts that would sneak in from the great role models.

628
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,719
Speaker 2: And I had some really good role models growing up

629
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 2: my stepdad, my grandparents. They were the two most special

630
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: people in my life. My grandparents are both passed on now,

631
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: but you know, anytime i'd have a thought of them

632
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: come into my mind, I would use drag, anything I

633
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: can to get that out, push it out, because I

634
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: didn't want to back off from that plan. I didn't

635
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: want to listen to the good things they had instilled

636
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: in me because I wanted to I was hell bent

637
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: on doing this, even, like I said, even had a

638
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: plan worked out.

639
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: What does a monster look day to day? Were you

640
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: in relationships? Were you showing love and then that turning

641
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: into vine balance? Were you picking fights at the coffee shop? Liked?

642
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: What did it look like?

643
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah?

644
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: So in the daytime I was working, I was laboring

645
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: and construction and things like that.

646
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 3: Pretty fine.

647
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: At work, it's pretty construction, things like that pretty rough.

648
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: So was I wasn't an anomaly on a job site.

649
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: I was heaps of rough guys on a job site.

650
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: So I fitted in pretty well. I was definitely in

651
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 2: relationships and string of different sort of relationships because I

652
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: didn't have the I didn't have the knowledge of how

653
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: to commit to a long term relationship in a safe

654
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: and loving an open way. So when things would get

655
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 2: too scary in the sense of being expected to commit

656
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: now I share a little bit about myself, I would

657
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: jump out of that and jump into another relationship because

658
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: I wanted someone around and I wanted that. I guess

659
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: that's connection with someone, but I didn't know how to

660
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: have it properly. I didn't really like being alone because

661
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 2: then of the thoughts would come come back.

662
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: You know.

663
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: I had a lot of voice voices in my head,

664
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: different thoughts and things like that. And I started to,

665
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 2: you know, when I couldn't get my way with things

666
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: or I didn't like the way things were going, I

667
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 2: started to use violence in my relationships as well. Started

668
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: you know, off and I never used the words in

669
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 2: a low level, high level violence of violence, but started

670
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 2: off as verbal threats and things like that and escalated

671
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 2: to physical violence. And I thought that was a relationship,

672
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 2: and I thought, you know, there was something to be

673
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 2: controlling your partner or something to be proud of. I

674
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: thought that was something to be proud of, you know

675
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 2: what I mean.

676
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that these women would have been doing things

677
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: like crying, cowering, running away from you when stuff like

678
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: this was happening. And what I'm trying to understand is,

679
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: as a little boy, you hated seeing that happening to

680
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: your mum. You physically tried to stop that happening. So

681
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: how could you do that to other women and not

682
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: feel that same feeling that you had with your mum.

683
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't even I wouldn't even you know, lie

684
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: or try and make an excuse to you GM and say,

685
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 2: you know, it was blunted because I was smoking eyes,

686
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: So it was blunted because I was using kkine whatever.

687
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even bother trying to rationalize it by saying

688
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 2: that I don't know. I don't, I don't know how

689
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: I could do it, you know, I don't.

690
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 3: I don't know.

691
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: But what I do know is that when when those

692
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: things would happen, like partners will cry or as my dad,

693
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: never would be the one to say, you know, comfort

694
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: them or hug them or you know, say you're okay,

695
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: talk about it more like fucking stop crying or you know,

696
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: shut up or.

697
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 3: Crying? What are you crying for? You know what I mean?

698
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: I'd even start to dip my toe in that pool

699
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: of Oh you think this, you think this is bad?

700
00:36:58,760 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 3: You know, you should have.

701
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: How I grew up. This is you know, this is

702
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: not even bad. What's happening to you? Or even make

703
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: myself the focus of it. They would be crying because

704
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: of something I'd done, and say, are you you should

705
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: have seen what happened to me when I was a

706
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: little and nobody cared about me. You know, you're you know,

707
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 2: poor me, You know what I mean. But I was

708
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: doing some awful things, and I don't know, I don't

709
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: know why.

710
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: I think that. That's really hard to hear that you

711
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: don't know, because I think there's so much violent violence now,

712
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: Like we hear about women dying every week at the

713
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: hands of violent men, and I think that's why. I'm like, why,

714
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: tell me, why why are these men so violent when

715
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: they can see that these people that they supposedly love

716
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: are bashed, bruised, damaged, crying, And it's devastating to hear that.

717
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you're such a different man now and looking

718
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: back that you can't pinpoint why.

719
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 3: I think like I can pinpoint heaps of reasons why.

720
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: The exposure to what I saw growing growing up, the

721
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 2: normalization of violence in our house, the status that being

722
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: a violent person or violent man gave me amongst my

723
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: peer group, you know, my inability to feel things. I

724
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: was blunted to feeling anything. So I have heaps of

725
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: reasons why, but I feel like every time I say that,

726
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: even when I say that to you now, I feel

727
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: like it takes away from the I feel like I'm

728
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: taken away from the experience of my partners at the time.

729
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm robbing them of what they felt,

730
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: and they're by trying to say, you know, it's because

731
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 2: I was bashed as a kid, it's because I only

732
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: saw violence. It is because so yeah, I know why

733
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 2: I was doing it, but I just feel like every

734
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: time I say it just feels piss week in comparison

735
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: to what my partners would.

736
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 3: Have been going through. Do you know what I mean?

737
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely get it, and I can see why

738
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: from your childhood. But I think it's just like, you know,

739
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: it's this thing that in society we're trying to unpick

740
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: why I'm in violent? Why are they doing this? And

741
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: we always have said that it started from childhood and

742
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: it's something that you learn over time, but I guess

743
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: it's now at a point where we're like, well, how

744
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: do we unpick it. There was an incident outside a

745
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: pub because it wasn't only women. We've talked about your

746
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: dad and your stepdad, but you were kind of hurting

747
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: men as well. Tell me about the incident outside the

748
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: pub because that kind of changed the game a bit.

749
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: That changed the game considerably because at that stage of

750
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: my life, I was pretty resigned to I wanted to

751
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 2: join a bike club because that gave me a lot

752
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: of connection and identity and belonging, and I thought, that's

753
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: what my next part of my.

754
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 3: Life is going to be like.

755
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 2: Whether that involve is gone to jail or not, whether

756
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: my fending gets worse or not, it's all part and

757
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 2: parcel of what's to come down the path. So I was,

758
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: you know, that track, and I was fairly happy in

759
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 2: a drug adable, messed up kind of way. That assault, though,

760
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 2: that happened that that night outside of pub in Morga.

761
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 2: The severity of that, not only in what happened during

762
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: that assault, but in terms of what I was charged with,

763
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 2: changed the game for me because all of a sudden,

764
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 2: these encounters with the criminal justice system that I've been having,

765
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: you know, nights here and there in custody refused bail

766
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: things like that. There's little I seemed to be a

767
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: period of time where I was always in contact with

768
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: the system, whether it was for a bond or a

769
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: probation order, or had to go into a course and

770
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: things like that. And this is how messed up I was.

771
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: I remember having to do a ten week ander management

772
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 2: course for a violent offense committed while I was drunk,

773
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: And that doesn't excuse it, but as part of the story,

774
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: and then a week ten of that course, going out

775
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: and getting drunk again to graduate, celebrate graduating the course,

776
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 2: and then assaulting someone again like I was, you know,

777
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: an idiot, like a clown, you know, But that assault

778
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: that night, all of a sudden, these little bits and

779
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: pieces of like good behavior binds and probation orders and

780
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 2: things like that, all of a sudden escalated to potentially

781
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 2: ten years in custody. So I was at that time

782
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: that I started to People would say to me, you know,

783
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 2: when I was on bail life, You're worried about going

784
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 2: to jail, And I'd say, no, But what I was

785
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 2: worried about going to jail because I'd started to distance

786
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: myself a little bit away from some of the lifestyle

787
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: and people that I was hanging around. And it was

788
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: during that time I started to spend more and more

789
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: time in the company and my grandparents as well, and

790
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: you know, I got off the drugs and started to

791
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 2: open up to what life might be like without violence.

792
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: I started to forget about trying to kill that other

793
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 2: guy and in the sense of there had to be

794
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: more to life. And I was around about that same

795
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: time than I met someone and they became pregnant, and

796
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 2: that for me, that was that's my oldest son's mum.

797
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: And that for me, that was a catalysts to change.

798
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 2: Because I thought I had lots of relationships and things

799
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: like that, there hadn't been enough to make me change.

800
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 2: Not that it was their responsibility in my partners, but

801
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 2: when I knew that I was going to be a dad,

802
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, there's someone coming along, or someone

803
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 2: will be coming along. It's going to need me more

804
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 2: than I need me. So I had to get better.

805
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: And then when we went to the ultrasound found out

806
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: we're having a little boy, I thought, this is a

807
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: is there a real chance to break that cycle? And

808
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: still had a pretty pretty heavy jail sentence hanging over

809
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: my head. I was on you know, I was on

810
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 2: bail when I met my oldest son's mum, and she

811
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: had put up with a lot of things, you know,

812
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: me having to report and do all these things probably

813
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: wasn't expecting when you start a relationship. But I started

814
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: to do things a little bit better and started the

815
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: coach kids with boxing and things like that. And by

816
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: the time this matter ended up going through court and

817
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 2: being through court, yeah, maybe two years that had sort

818
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: of went through the process going to court, you know,

819
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 2: really removed myself from that other lifestyle, you know, and

820
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: started to try and change things and started trying to

821
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 2: be better and do better. And unfortunately the magistrate or

822
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: the judge saw that when I came up to be sentenced,

823
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 2: because he.

824
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: Ended up giving you a suspended sentence, so no jail time, no.

825
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: Jail time, which was you know, for me, it was

826
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: really it was a second chance at life. And at

827
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 2: that stage, I think I was twenty jeez, maybe twenty

828
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 2: three or.

829
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 3: Four, which is young and still young. But for me,

830
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 3: and when I talk to.

831
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: Other men that have lived similar lives twenty three years

832
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: or twenty four years of violences, I feel like it's

833
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: like one hundred and twenty four years off.

834
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: It's like aging dog years.

835
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: You are one of the minority that deserved a second chance.

836
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: I can't move past this part of the conversation without

837
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: asking you because I feel like there are so many

838
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: stories that I write every week, that my team writes

839
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: about men who get second chances from magistrates with lengthy

840
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: violent pass who end up killing someone the next time

841
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: they're out, largely women. But do you think that these

842
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: men or more men are needing these second chances? Do

843
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: we need to be tougher? What's your take?

844
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: How much time do we have in our seriousness. I'm

845
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: thankful for a second chance. And if you looked at

846
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: my story on paper, in no way i'd already had.

847
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: I'd already had a thirteenth, fourteenth chance. I mean I

848
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 2: should have been I should have should not have had

849
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: that chance. I'm thankful now every day that I had,

850
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: you know, almost twenty years now. But when we see

851
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: what you're talking about with men killing women while they're

852
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: on bail, or while they're on parole, or you know,

853
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: continuing to get bailed despite these lengthy criminal histories related

854
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 2: to domestic and family of violence, Yeah, we have to

855
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: be tougher. I guess in talking to men that are

856
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 2: used violence and men that perhaps don't want to be

857
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: violent anymore. But without making this sound like a copy out,

858
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: they don't want to be violent, they haven't been shown

859
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 2: anything different, or they don't know how to do things differently.

860
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes I think when we tell people just

861
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: to stop using violence, just make just stop. That's don't

862
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: be violent, it's about as useful as telling a woman

863
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: in that situation, I'll just leave. Yeah, you know what

864
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 2: I mean, it's easy, It's not that easy. And so

865
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 2: what I've gained from talking to men, if we're talking

866
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: about the court system and the judicial system and things

867
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 2: like that, is that men that are trying to change

868
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: their behavior will often not have access to programs or

869
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 2: or things that are therapeutic in nature, definitely, but behavioral

870
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,399
Speaker 2: change that's delivered by men that have used violence and.

871
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 3: Changed, if you know what I mean.

872
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: I think if we're going to change the behavior of

873
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 2: men that are using violence, they probably need to hear

874
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: from other men that have used violence and have changed.

875
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: You know, been delivering a program recently around domestic and

876
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: family violence to young men in custody. You know, it's

877
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: over two days and talk about violence and creating an

878
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: identity for young men without violence attached to it, and

879
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: their experiences witnesses of DV as kids and they've gone

880
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: on to perpetrate the same violence and things like that,

881
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: and you know, interspersing the pieces of breath work throughout

882
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: these two days. And I guess I'm getting at is

883
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: when I set that program up, I've got a remarkable

884
00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 2: female co facilitator, and I think that dynamic is what's

885
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: needed to in terms of what we do in custody,

886
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: but also with men in the community, because I have

887
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 2: to hear a female perspective, especially from a victim survivor standpoint,

888
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 2: but also coming from a man who's lived that life

889
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 2: and mark that path and knows what it's like to change,

890
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: because sometimes the people that are delivering these programs haven't

891
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 2: been in that mindset before and don't know what it

892
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: takes to change, and I feel like that probably takes

893
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: a lot away from the experience of the person in

894
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: the program too. But in a long winded way to

895
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: answer your question, I do think we absolutely need to

896
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 2: be tough, especially on bail conditions or presumption against bail

897
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 2: of people that have a history of domestic a family

898
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: of violence offending because the fact of the matter is

899
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: we're losing women, and that we're losing them at the

900
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: hands of men that have been violent. They've got a

901
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: history of violence. It's not like, oh, this is the

902
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: first time year before the court will give you a

903
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: rule in favor of bail. You know, this is your

904
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: fiftieth time before the court. We're giving you a bail again.

905
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 2: And it can't just be an overcrowding of prison. You know,

906
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: we've got no beds or you know, there's no funding

907
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: for you know, I don't know for programs or things

908
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,479
Speaker 2: like that. So we'll have to put you here. And

909
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: we need to do something about it because I think

910
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 2: I think we reached the peak eighteen months ago. We're

911
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 2: losing one woman every four days, and it's a father

912
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 2: of four, two boys, two girls. Don't want my girls

913
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 2: to grow up. I don't want my girls to grow

914
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: up in that in a world where where they could

915
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: get their statistics of that high. I don't want that.

916
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: After the break, can violence be unlearned? Darryl explains how

917
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: his programs helped men control anger, break cycles of harm,

918
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 1: and create real change, and whether they're actually working you mentioned.

919
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know the statistics off the top

920
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: of my head, but it is like five seven, ten

921
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: times that women try and leave violent partners before they

922
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 1: actually leave. Do you think it's similar with men? It's

923
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: five ten, fifteen times of like trying to reign in

924
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: that violence. Like, how is that process of turning your

925
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: life around? How does that go? Because you've talked to

926
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: thousands of men, not just your own experience, but is

927
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: it possible? Can we turn violent men into good citizens?

928
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: I think we absolutely can. I think some things have

929
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: to change though. On One of those things that has

930
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: to change is if you're a man that's using violence

931
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: quite often, you have to come into contact with the

932
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 2: criminal justice system to then be eligible for referral into

933
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: a program.

934
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 3: Right, Why do you have to be at that point.

935
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: At that point to get help? You know, it's like,

936
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: why can't you get help earlier? You know? Why can't

937
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: clinical interventions of violence men be eligible for medicare? Why

938
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 2: you know, why can't family therapy or marriage or relationship counseling.

939
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 3: Why can't that be bulk built?

940
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: I know I'm talking about money, but there's seems to

941
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,479
Speaker 2: be some barriers in the way of men accessing help

942
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: earlier on in their trajectory of violent behavior or relationship

943
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 2: difficult is that I don't know, I feel like that

944
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 2: could be removed without a lot of without without a

945
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: lot of obstacle. But also, you know, we're seeing men

946
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 2: engage in programs under the direction of the court quite

947
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 2: often as a diversion to custody or when they're on parole.

948
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: So there's this onus of well, I'll do that now

949
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: because I don't want to go to jail, or I'll

950
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: do that now because I don't want to go to

951
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to breach my.

952
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 3: Parole, not because I'm ready to change, not because I'm

953
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 3: ready to change.

954
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 2: And I think I think, I guess one of the

955
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 2: things that I'm doing in terms of delivering these programs

956
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: in custodies, and let's do that here you're quite literally

957
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 2: a captive audience. So let's do that now. Yes, let's

958
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 2: do that while you're in custody, not when you get out.

959
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: And you're just going to do it because it's breaching

960
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: your you know, I don't want to breach my pross.

961
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 3: I bet I can't do this stupid course. You know.

962
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there has to be more opportunity for men that

963
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 2: are wanting to change to engaging programs rather than having

964
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: to get to a point where they're directed by the

965
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: court and then quite often are only doing it because

966
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 2: I don't want to get a jail.

967
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: Therapy is such a big part of all of this.

968
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: So I want to rewind a bit and talk about

969
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: your journey therapy, because it didn't start great. You finally

970
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: reached out, you're ready to change. You sit down with

971
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 1: a therapist and he's a excuse my language to get

972
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: to you.

973
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

974
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:53,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my journey with therapy actually started a little.

975
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 2: So I talk about having three strikes. Three strikes with therapy.

976
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 2: So at the height of my violence and probably low

977
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 2: the lobe of my violence, addiction and dysfunction, I actually

978
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: tried to take my own life and finished up in

979
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: a psychiatric ward in a hospital and asked for help. Then,

980
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 2: at an early age, I think I was twenty two.

981
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 2: Things could have been as things would have been different.

982
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: They could have been, but I remember the psychiatrist telling

983
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 2: me during and at that stage, I didn't have any

984
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 2: skills in life. I knew how to poor concrete and

985
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: be violent, and how to make dinners things like that.

986
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 2: Didn't even know how to go doctor, I had a

987
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 2: saw ear or anything. But at that stage, I thought,

988
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: this is an opportunity now for help. I was getting

989
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 2: a bit fatigued. So I'm a bit tired of this life.

990
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 2: You know, when I'd be home alone, had hurt partners

991
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: or I'd hurt people, and I was home alone and

992
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 2: cry a lot because I was this scared little kid,

993
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,479
Speaker 2: and I thought, getting tired of this, I want some help,

994
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: and so I asked a psychiatrist. I got to stay

995
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: in hospital when he came to charged me, and I

996
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 2: remember him saying, you know, it's the first time I'd

997
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 2: ever been vulnerable. I remember he was saying, no, you

998
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 2: can't stay here because you don't belong People like you

999
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: belong in the hospital.

1000
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 3: They belong in jail.

1001
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 2: And talk to me about drugging, juice, psychosis, things like that.

1002
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: And I didn't understand it. But all I understood was

1003
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 2: the first few words of you you belong in jail,

1004
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 2: You don't belong here, you don't deserve help, you know,

1005
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 2: lock you up like an animal, you know, And it

1006
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 2: was probably part of it was a fair statement, but

1007
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 2: that was my first strike and It took me another

1008
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: seven issh years to reach out for help, and then

1009
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 2: I went and saw a counsel and crying in that

1010
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: session because he asked me why I was there, and

1011
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 2: I thought about my son, you know, and didn't want

1012
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 2: him to go through the things I'd gone through. I

1013
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: hadn't use violence for a long time, like five years

1014
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 2: at that stage, and I still had all these ideas

1015
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: that I had to get. You know, I knew that

1016
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: work wasn't done. And you remember him laughing at me

1017
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 2: crying as a giggling you know. I know now as

1018
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 2: a counselor now, sometimes you have to reach to build

1019
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 2: a rapport. And I think, look back now, is that

1020
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 2: he's misguided way of trying to better appall but him

1021
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: saying I've never seen no one with tattoos cry before,

1022
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 2: and I thought, ah, yeah, fuck, there's two strikes.

1023
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: Someone who hasn't been violent. You wanted to be violent?

1024
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah? I did. I did in that moment.

1025
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 2: And talk about this when I share my storyge, I

1026
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: mean that moment, I felt so weak and vulnerable, and

1027
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 2: you know, in that moment, I actually went went to

1028
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 2: grab that guy because I wanted to revert back to

1029
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 2: that behavior because the only one knew how to reverse

1030
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: that at that time and gone back fifteen thirteen, fifteen

1031
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: years now. Anyway, I knew how to change that was

1032
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 2: to be the one that was in the position of power,

1033
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 2: and I almost slipped back into that behavior then.

1034
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 3: So yeah, my.

1035
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 2: Third lucky I went spoke to another guy. I had

1036
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 2: been training a few boxs is back then, and spoke

1037
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 2: to another guy actually just come out of jail, and

1038
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: he had about not wanting to do things under duress,

1039
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,760
Speaker 2: but he had to see psychologists part of his parole.

1040
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: I was training for a fight, and he said to

1041
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 2: he might go and see this. This guy is unreal

1042
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 2: and what he said probably galvanized it. Four weeks ago.

1043
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 2: He understands blobs like us, like you, and so went long.

1044
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 2: I saw these other fellow psychologists, and.

1045
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was.

1046
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: He was incredible. Unfortunately, he very rudely got a promotion

1047
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 2: and stopped practicing. A couple of years later. I ended

1048
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 2: up hav enough one someone else. Conversely, who I see now,

1049
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 2: who's a female psychologist? And that's first couple of strikes

1050
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 2: all with men, because I thought I never talked to

1051
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 2: a woman doctor or clinician or I only want to

1052
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 2: speak to men, you know, probably embarrassed to talk about

1053
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 2: the things I've done too, because I thought.

1054
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,760
Speaker 3: Judge me and two women.

1055
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've done a lot of shitty things to women.

1056
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 2: A house, a female clinician or psychologists going to relate

1057
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: to me and the lady I see now, she's.

1058
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 3: Amazing, you know.

1059
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 2: But yes, the therapy was a pretty bumpy road for

1060
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 2: me at the beginning, and it almost pulled out a

1061
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: couple of times.

1062
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 1: Do you think if you as that young little boy

1063
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: age five, it's so young to think about therapy, but

1064
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: if you had some kind of therapy at that age,

1065
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: do you think that we could have saved you from

1066
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: this life of violence?

1067
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so, Jim.

1068
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: I see now working with adolescent mental health, it's part

1069
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 2: of my job. I see some really specialized clinicians that

1070
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: provide trauma reformed care for kids had the same lives

1071
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 2: as me, some lot then worse than what I went through.

1072
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 2: And I see that work that's being done with them,

1073
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 2: and it's remarkable, And I think if I had had

1074
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 2: that opportunity, if I had had that opportunity and stayed

1075
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 2: with my mum and step definitely later on in life

1076
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 2: end up being di knows with attachment disorder and complex

1077
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 2: PDSD and ADHD and talk about that to some people

1078
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 2: and they asked me a very similar question to what

1079
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 2: you've asked, but more in terms of medication for ADHD.

1080
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 2: And if you had had that earlier, do you think

1081
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 2: life would have been different? Maybe as a teenager because

1082
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 2: I was pretty terrible at school. It's not bad academically,

1083
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: and I was really naughty. But I think to myself, no,

1084
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 2: because little with my dad, I wouldn't have understood, you know,

1085
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 2: he wouldn't have taken me for the appointments.

1086
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 3: Or anything like that.

1087
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 2: So I think that diagnosis and that medication came along

1088
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: at the right time. But if I had had someone

1089
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: a psychologist or psychiatrist, or a counselor or someone that

1090
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 2: really cared when I was five, yeah, I think things

1091
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 2: would have been a lot different. If I stayed with

1092
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 2: my mum and stepdad and continue to have influence from

1093
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 2: my grandparents, things would have been different.

1094
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: I keep mentioning you help thousands of men, you talk

1095
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: to thousands of men and women. Can you explain to

1096
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: the listeners what that means, because over the last twenty years,

1097
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: you've been working in kind of the mental health space,

1098
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: but also boxing paint a picture of what you've been doing.

1099
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:10,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, always, thank you. So work primarily work

1100
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 2: with So I've got two jobs. So I work for

1101
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 2: and I'm we're allowed to say it, but okay. So

1102
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 2: I work for New South Wales Health full time, work

1103
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: with young people in custody as as a clinician. That

1104
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 2: involves running programs throughout youth justice centers used topek what

1105
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 2: People Score juts across the state. The focus of three

1106
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: programs in my portfolio. One is a domestic and family

1107
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 2: violence breathwork program for young men and women in custody,

1108
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 2: the other one is a remote psychiatry clinic outreach to

1109
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 2: ruin New South Wales, and the other one is a

1110
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 2: program around understanding your own mental health and how important

1111
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 2: that is to your identity. So you know, really quite

1112
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 2: busy with that. But on the side of that, I've

1113
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 2: had a private practice for the last feel company business

1114
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: practice for the last five years, rolling with the Punches

1115
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: where I initially started that to make mental health services

1116
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 2: more accessible. So I've been working with state government for

1117
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 2: about twenty years now, but doing my own stuff for

1118
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 2: about five years. And the reason I wanted to do

1119
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 2: that was I wanted to make mental health services more

1120
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 2: accessible for people that were falling through the gaps. And

1121
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: what I was getting was this feedback of, you know,

1122
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 2: we want to talk to someone about our mental health.

1123
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: We want to talk to someone who looks like us.

1124
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: So if you out here a counsel being ile to

1125
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 2: look like a counselor and makes us feel comfortable. But

1126
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: started to do that a little bit more and more

1127
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 2: and more, and that grew a fair bit. Started to

1128
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 2: probably work with men that weren't going to access therapy

1129
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 2: anywhere ever, and that had its barriers too, in the

1130
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 2: sense of, like a lot of that stuffs free because

1131
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 2: these are not guys that are going to go and

1132
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 2: get a mental health care.

1133
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 3: Planning things like that.

1134
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: Ily haven't been to a GP, haven't.

1135
00:59:59,240 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 3: Been to a GP.

1136
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 2: And so that was good though, because that was part

1137
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 2: of my own healing, was to be able to not

1138
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 2: attach a you know, oh, go and do this because

1139
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to get one hundred bucks for it. I'm

1140
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 2: going to go and do this because I get paid

1141
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,479
Speaker 2: for it. It was more like, I do this because

1142
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 2: it's important and I'm really lucky to have an amazing wife,

1143
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 2: Kate that she could see the benefit of that stuff

1144
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 2: as well. I got really understanding kids that know, sometimes

1145
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,959
Speaker 2: what you do for workdout and try and help people

1146
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 2: is the easiest way to explain it, especially to the

1147
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: little ones. But with the private stuff, the first few

1148
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 2: years was just men, just working around men's mental health

1149
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 2: and things like that, and I started to branch out

1150
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 2: a little bit more in the sense of, all right,

1151
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: so we're working with these men, but then how do

1152
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 2: we rebuild trust with their partners and kids, especially with

1153
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 2: men that had been violent? And around that time I

1154
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 2: thought what this was, around the time that we had

1155
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:01,919
Speaker 2: the really overwhelming statistics around partner of violence and women

1156
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 2: being murdered at the hands of their partners. A few

1157
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 2: years ago, got a branched off and started up a

1158
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 2: free women's boxing program for domestic violence awareness and connection

1159
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 2: and empowerment for women, and got some tough feedback on

1160
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 2: that from some people because some of the emails and

1161
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 2: messages I get were around, yeah, that's great, mate, but

1162
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 2: why should women have.

1163
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 3: To learn to box? Which is always the You guys should.

1164
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 2: Just stop beating us up and carrying us, you know,

1165
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: and that's true, true, And my feedback to that was,

1166
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 2: you know, completely empathizing with where you're coming from, but

1167
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: as someone who's had my passes and a father of

1168
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: two girls, is the only way I know how to

1169
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 2: really help is to share something that helped me in

1170
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 2: boxing and create this community of women that were able

1171
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 2: to be connected through boxing. Unfortunately, about two years ago

1172
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 2: was that sort of stepped right back from that and

1173
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 2: hand that over to a female coach, some funding for her,

1174
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 2: so she's she's a legend to pay her to run

1175
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 2: that And so started to answer your question from mental

1176
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 2: health into sort of guess more family work, always sharing

1177
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 2: my story along the way when the opportunity would arise.

1178
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 3: But I've probably got to the.

1179
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 2: Point where I'm at now where a lot of the

1180
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 2: work now is in delivering sort of week long interventions

1181
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 2: now with groups of men in different parts of Australia.

1182
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:28,919
Speaker 3: And some of the feedback I get is, you.

1183
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 2: Know, you know, next time you come, could you you know,

1184
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 2: and back off a little bit in the programs or

1185
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 2: I want you to come back and run it again.

1186
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 2: But the men said it was really confronting and if

1187
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 2: you want someone to tiptoe around these issues and get

1188
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 2: some brelli with respect. There plenty of other folks out

1189
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 2: there doing this work. Find someone else, because if I'm

1190
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 2: making the effort to go to different parts of Australia

1191
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 2: and you're making the effort.

1192
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 3: To bring me there, then we're boring.

1193
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 1: In the change story.

1194
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no change won't happen if we continue to

1195
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 2: tiptoe around these issues and not not call out the

1196
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 2: behavior of the men that are using the violence. And

1197
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 2: someone had to called my stuff out earlier on maybe

1198
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 2: might have been enough for me to stop either. So

1199
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 2: we can't sit around in groups of you know, men

1200
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 2: and you know, normalize this behavior or you know, only

1201
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 2: work on the physical violence.

1202
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 3: But it's okay if you're verbally because that's not really

1203
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.

1204
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 2: Like, so my program is pretty intensive, but I think

1205
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 2: that's the only way to make a change.

1206
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 1: Are you seeing success stories?

1207
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1208
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: Yes, seeing success stories in the sense that going to

1209
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 2: do a job. Shortly, it's a group of men that

1210
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 2: came through my program that are now wanting to facilitate

1211
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 2: the programs themselves. So it's like, so we were participants,

1212
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: we want you to now like can you come back

1213
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: and train to deliver these interventions as well because we

1214
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 2: believe in it and we've you know, we've changed the

1215
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 2: things that we were doing as well. So that's probably

1216
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: one of the most resounding success stories when you see that.

1217
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 2: And also when we're seeing young people coming through custody

1218
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 2: and you know, they stop, they stop coming back. You know,

1219
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 2: seeing people that I've worked with over the last twenty

1220
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 2: years now in healthy, functional relationships, they've got their own kids.

1221
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 2: You know, I may have met them in custody, they

1222
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 2: may have been locked up, but you know, they'll come

1223
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 2: back now and they'll say things like, you know, when

1224
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 2: you came in and talk to us about healthy relationships

1225
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 2: five years ago or six or seven, eight or ten

1226
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 2: years ago. At the time, I wasn't open to that.

1227
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 2: At the time, I was like, whatever, you know, But

1228
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 2: now ten years later, I've got a partner, I've got

1229
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 2: you know, we've got kids of our own off and

1230
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 2: we'll go back to those things. And you know, that's

1231
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 2: and I stopped going back to custody, and I stopped

1232
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 2: wanting people to associate my name with being the best

1233
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 2: Kathie for the best criminal or you know, I wanted

1234
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 2: them to associate my name with being the best venta

1235
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 2: or the best youth work or the best doctor or

1236
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, you gave me and you helped me form

1237
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 2: an identity away from violence.

1238
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: We talk about men avoiding therapy. I can imagine that

1239
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: when you first talk to them about breath work, they're

1240
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 1: a bit hesitant. Can you give us an example of

1241
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 1: what that actually looks like. I'm trying to visualize what

1242
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 1: breath work with men who are violent even looks like, yeah, it's.

1243
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 3: I give you a funny visual.

1244
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 2: Remember running a program for a group of men and

1245
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:40,320
Speaker 2: for their own anonymity, not that they would mind, I

1246
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 2: won't identify them, but they're part of a really successful

1247
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 2: program that's been running in Sydney for a number of years.

1248
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 2: It's men that are coming to the end of their

1249
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 2: cust THIRDI or sentences and they're allowed out of prison

1250
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:57,960
Speaker 2: each day to participate in programs. Can be job readiness, fitness,

1251
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 2: that cultural things, but a big component of it is

1252
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 2: addressing a violent behavior. And so to see a group

1253
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 2: of men engaging in breathwork practices laying on the floor

1254
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 2: in a room and the breathwork that I teach where

1255
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 2: I'm ask and headphones because it're completely individualized it, so

1256
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 2: you're not like looking at the person next to you thinking,

1257
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 2: how come he's not doing it?

1258
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 3: Probably, you know, but.

1259
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 2: Seeing all these guys really really immersed in that, but

1260
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 2: also seeing all their.

1261
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 3: Ankle monitors is a funny one.

1262
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: That's a funny one, but they buy into it, and

1263
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 2: you know, going out to places where I thought that

1264
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 2: people would never get into it. And I feel really

1265
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 2: lucky to be able to share that with men and

1266
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 2: women and young people as well, because it's you know,

1267
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 2: it's taking therapy out of a clinical environment and putting

1268
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 2: it in an environment that.

1269
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 3: People are comfortable with.

1270
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 1: There's a lot of women who would be listening to this,

1271
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 1: hopefully learning a lot from you. But what would you

1272
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 1: want them to take away from.

1273
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 2: Our chat, if they can take anything away from this

1274
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 2: conversation with the experiences they may have had throughout their lives,

1275
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 2: is that they are still the ares and safe men

1276
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 2: out there.

1277
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 3: Some men can change their behavior. I would never.

1278
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 2: Suggest to a woman that's been through you know, violence,

1279
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 2: they should just open up off the back of this

1280
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 2: podcast and go, oh, well he did. You know, I

1281
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 2: can trust everyone, or he'll change, or you know, I'll

1282
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 2: give my partner another go. That's been awful, awful to

1283
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 2: me for a whole relationship. But there are safe men

1284
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 2: out there, and actually there's a small number of men

1285
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 2: that are doing the same work that are really trying

1286
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 2: to change and there's a few of us that are

1287
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 2: really trying to change things for women, but also for

1288
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 2: men and also for families.

1289
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 1: Thank you to Daryl for telling us his story. If

1290
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 1: you're experiencing family violence, help is available. Call one eight

1291
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 1: hundred respect for twenty four hour support. You can find

1292
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: out more about Daryl's work at the links in our

1293
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 1: show notes and Rolling Withthepunches dot com dot au. If

1294
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: you want to see visuals from this episode, head over

1295
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 1: to our Instagram page at True Crime Conversations, and for

1296
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 1: in depth case explainers, follow us on TikTok under the

1297
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: same name. True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Jemma Bath.

1298
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Tarlie Blackman, the group executive producer

1299
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 1: is Alaria Brophy, and there's been audio design by Jacob Brown.

1300
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

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Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation.

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Speaker 4: In this episode, Daryl also spoke about suicide. Lifeline is

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Speaker 4: a national charity providing all Australians with twenty four hour

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Speaker 4: crisis support and suicide preventions services. If you need support,

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Speaker 4: you can call thirteen eleven fourteen at any time to

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Speaker 4: speak with a trained crisis supporter. True Crime Conversations acknowledges

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Speaker 4: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 4: was recorded on