WEBVTT - The Salt Path Scandal That Blew Up 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.822 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:20.902 --> 0:00:24.422 Welcome to mummya out loud where women come to debrief. 0:00:24.542 --> 0:00:27.382 I am Jessie Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm m 0:00:27.502 --> 0:00:30.422 van Em And here's what's on our agenda for today, Friday, 0:00:30.462 --> 0:00:34.342 the eighteenth of July. We couldn't wait until hollywoods back. 0:00:34.342 --> 0:00:37.302 We tried, We really tried, but we desperately need to 0:00:37.382 --> 0:00:41.622 unpack the Salt Path memoir controversy. I have gone so deep, 0:00:41.742 --> 0:00:42.302 my friends. 0:00:42.662 --> 0:00:45.822 I have spent I reckon around twenty hours watching two 0:00:45.822 --> 0:00:48.982 shows last weekend. I was in binge mode and they 0:00:48.982 --> 0:00:52.742 are my recommendations. Plus we have two bits of podcast news. 0:00:52.422 --> 0:00:57.022 And therapy speak, mental health challenges and identity. Does anyone 0:00:57.102 --> 0:00:59.102 simply have a personality anymore? 0:00:59.702 --> 0:01:02.182 But first, in case you missed it, a couple in 0:01:02.262 --> 0:01:05.822 Taiwan have caused a bit of a stir by hiring 0:01:05.902 --> 0:01:10.862 pole dancers to perform outside their son's high school graduation 0:01:11.062 --> 0:01:15.222 ceremony last month. The event took place in mid June, 0:01:15.342 --> 0:01:19.062 just as students were emerging from the junior high school. 0:01:19.422 --> 0:01:23.142 Two female dancers began their routine on the street, and 0:01:23.182 --> 0:01:27.742 then this is very impressive. They moved onto the roofs 0:01:27.782 --> 0:01:30.382 of some SUVs that were rigged with poles for a 0:01:30.422 --> 0:01:36.182 full whole performance. The crowd was full of fairly shocked students, 0:01:36.262 --> 0:01:40.742 confused parents, and many many phones that were filming. The 0:01:40.782 --> 0:01:43.702 star of the show was the graduating student himself, who 0:01:43.702 --> 0:01:46.622 looked suitably mortified. I reckon he would have been about 0:01:46.982 --> 0:01:49.222 hard to say, maybe fourteen or so. 0:01:49.742 --> 0:01:52.262 I heard that he was also pulled into it a 0:01:52.302 --> 0:01:53.382 little bit between. 0:01:53.422 --> 0:01:57.062 It gets better because the star of the show was 0:01:57.182 --> 0:02:01.462 really his mum. She was not only unapologetic, but she 0:02:01.702 --> 0:02:06.022 choreographed the routine, and she said she wanted an unforgettable 0:02:06.062 --> 0:02:09.262 gift for her son, and she said a friend paid 0:02:09.262 --> 0:02:11.582 for a and she wanted it to be a more 0:02:11.621 --> 0:02:16.142 creative idea than some of the other parents' gifts for 0:02:16.222 --> 0:02:18.982 their kids. And it was it certainly what the police 0:02:18.982 --> 0:02:22.342 were called because the crowd gathered and if they're not 0:02:22.382 --> 0:02:26.262 have a permit, there was backlash. She'll be shocked to 0:02:26.302 --> 0:02:29.422 hear a school official said, we will be encouraging more 0:02:29.502 --> 0:02:31.422 rational celebrations moving forward. 0:02:33.181 --> 0:02:36.702 This is what happens when you give parents creative freedom 0:02:36.902 --> 0:02:39.542 to impress the other parents, because that's literally what she 0:02:39.662 --> 0:02:41.782 was doing, right. She was like, all these other parents 0:02:41.862 --> 0:02:43.702 get to do something fun for their kid. What's something 0:02:43.822 --> 0:02:46.782 I can do that shows my skills? And I did 0:02:46.822 --> 0:02:48.622 see a video of the dance. I didn't see the 0:02:48.622 --> 0:02:51.742 actual pole dancing, but I saw the dance. It's quite impressive, 0:02:51.982 --> 0:02:55.502 was it. Yeah, this isn't actually the first pole dancing 0:02:55.662 --> 0:02:59.462 incident in China. There was a kindergarten where a principal 0:02:59.502 --> 0:03:02.702 invited dancers to perform at the opening ceremony. 0:03:02.942 --> 0:03:05.302 Do you think she didn't know that they were sexy dancers? 0:03:05.302 --> 0:03:07.102 And maybe he thought that it was kind of a 0:03:07.181 --> 0:03:08.101 kind of legal. 0:03:09.022 --> 0:03:12.942 Pulled out, aren't. I mean sometimes Stupa's pole dance, But 0:03:12.982 --> 0:03:15.262 also there are people who pole dance for sport. I've 0:03:15.262 --> 0:03:17.901 done pole dancing classes. It's really hard. I think it 0:03:17.942 --> 0:03:20.382 was maybe not quite an Olympic sport, but I think 0:03:20.422 --> 0:03:22.781 it was, you know, it's a competitive sport. 0:03:23.022 --> 0:03:25.022 I think that we should all light a candle for 0:03:25.302 --> 0:03:27.782 the pole dancer in this situation, or any kind of 0:03:28.222 --> 0:03:31.822 exotic dancer who is hired to do a job by people, 0:03:32.542 --> 0:03:35.942 but the person that it's four hasn't actually opted in. 0:03:36.302 --> 0:03:39.262 Can you imagine sexily dancing to someone who's clearly deeply 0:03:39.342 --> 0:03:41.262 uncomfortable and doesn't want to be there. I think that 0:03:41.382 --> 0:03:43.862 often about Bucks parties. Yeah, when they go, oh, we're 0:03:43.862 --> 0:03:45.262 going to send you, and then you turn up as 0:03:45.302 --> 0:03:48.422 a worker who's like a really good dancer and he's 0:03:48.542 --> 0:03:50.702 very good at what you do, and you're there and 0:03:50.702 --> 0:03:52.302 you're like, I don't reckon, he's that into it. 0:03:52.382 --> 0:03:55.342 You're there for that one best man you really really wanted. 0:03:55.142 --> 0:03:56.702 It who wanted it a little too much. 0:03:56.942 --> 0:03:59.222 In the eighties, people used to send each other gorilla 0:03:59.302 --> 0:04:02.382 grams as a prank. What's that like? It was someone 0:04:02.502 --> 0:04:04.902 would turn up in a gorilla suit, usually to your 0:04:04.942 --> 0:04:08.022 place of business and do I don't know what they 0:04:08.022 --> 0:04:09.022 would actually do. 0:04:09.542 --> 0:04:10.302 This is an actual thing. 0:04:10.422 --> 0:04:13.262 Yeah, gorilla grams. They were really big in the eighties, 0:04:13.502 --> 0:04:16.621 and they would I guess dance. I suppose that it 0:04:16.622 --> 0:04:19.301 wouldn't wasn't sexual, but it was just kind of what 0:04:19.342 --> 0:04:23.662 was that person signed were designed to. It's like hiring 0:04:23.702 --> 0:04:27.421 someone a surprise strooper, but without taking their clothes off there, 0:04:27.421 --> 0:04:29.022 which is just fur I. 0:04:28.981 --> 0:04:31.742 Want to hire you a gorilla for your birthday? Who 0:04:31.821 --> 0:04:32.901 sings you Happy birthday and. 0:04:34.262 --> 0:04:36.181 I want the gorilla to also pole dance. 0:04:36.541 --> 0:04:38.981 Oh yes, no, Maya would love that to. 0:04:39.262 --> 0:04:39.861 Actually like that? 0:04:41.101 --> 0:04:45.301 Is it true that nobody has a personality anymore? This week, 0:04:45.501 --> 0:04:49.662 freelance writer and author of Girls Newsletter Freyer India published 0:04:49.662 --> 0:04:53.581 a subtec post titled Nobody has a personality Anymore. In 0:04:53.621 --> 0:04:56.742 the piece, she explains how therapy speak and self diagnosis 0:04:56.821 --> 0:05:00.181 have taken over how we talk about ourselves and our relationships, 0:05:00.462 --> 0:05:03.461 turning every quirk, feeling, or decision into a symptom to 0:05:03.462 --> 0:05:06.662 be analyzed, and in trying to explain everything through a 0:05:06.702 --> 0:05:12.301 psychological framework, we've lost language, personality, mystery, and soul In it, 0:05:12.421 --> 0:05:15.702 she says, we have lost the sentimental ways we use 0:05:15.782 --> 0:05:19.581 to describe people. Not because you are lovably forgetful, not 0:05:19.662 --> 0:05:22.782 because you are scattered and interesting and secretly loved for 0:05:22.821 --> 0:05:25.461 never arriving on time, but because of ADHD. 0:05:26.022 --> 0:05:30.222 But maybe you're also late, just because you're useless or selfie, sure, 0:05:30.702 --> 0:05:31.981 all of those kinds of things. 0:05:31.981 --> 0:05:35.261 Maybe maybe, But also you are shy and stare at 0:05:35.301 --> 0:05:37.421 your feet when people talk to you, not because you 0:05:37.462 --> 0:05:40.382 are your mother's child, not because you are gentle and sweet, 0:05:40.421 --> 0:05:43.782 and blush the same way she does. But autism you 0:05:43.861 --> 0:05:45.981 are the way you are, not because you have a soul, 0:05:46.101 --> 0:05:50.381 but because of your symptoms and diagnosis. Every heartfelt, annoying, 0:05:50.501 --> 0:05:53.902 interesting piece of you categorized the fond way your family 0:05:53.941 --> 0:05:57.902 describe you medicalized. The pieces of us once written into 0:05:57.902 --> 0:06:00.902 wedding vows read out and eulogies remembered with the smile, 0:06:01.301 --> 0:06:04.141 now live on doctor's notes and mental health assessments and 0:06:04.222 --> 0:06:07.901 better help applications. We are not people anymore. We have 0:06:07.981 --> 0:06:10.981 been products for a long time, and these are our labels. 0:06:11.421 --> 0:06:15.141 I think this is hyperbolic. You can be someone with 0:06:15.662 --> 0:06:19.222 quirks and very specific characteristics, and you can also have 0:06:19.262 --> 0:06:22.382 an autism diagnosis like both of those things can be true. 0:06:22.582 --> 0:06:25.462 And if you do go to a wedding or a funeral, 0:06:25.662 --> 0:06:27.901 you'll notice that it is not a list of labels. 0:06:28.222 --> 0:06:31.342 The way that we remember people or characterize people are 0:06:31.462 --> 0:06:35.142 by their contradictions. That is how it happens. But as 0:06:35.222 --> 0:06:37.262 with a lot of writing, I think that this writer 0:06:37.421 --> 0:06:39.861 is reflecting to a phenomenon that's occurring on the Internet. 0:06:40.181 --> 0:06:43.381 And there is such a difference between therapy speak and 0:06:43.421 --> 0:06:46.541 therapy culture and sitting down with a psychologist. They're actually 0:06:46.541 --> 0:06:49.782 two completely different things. And if you sit down with 0:06:49.821 --> 0:06:53.381 a psychologist, they actually aren't trying to label you, and 0:06:53.421 --> 0:06:57.902 they're not trying to position every relationship you have as 0:06:58.222 --> 0:07:01.782 codependent or an attachment disorder or blah blah blah. They're 0:07:01.821 --> 0:07:05.781 trying to see your personality as this complex and always 0:07:05.821 --> 0:07:12.222 evolving thing. And what psychologists also will focus on and 0:07:12.222 --> 0:07:15.261 have you be more open to, is that personality is 0:07:15.262 --> 0:07:18.302 ever changing. Like that's maybe something that I have felt 0:07:18.342 --> 0:07:20.022 a little bit shift, is that the way that we're 0:07:20.022 --> 0:07:22.422 starting to talk about personality is as though it is 0:07:22.462 --> 0:07:27.862 set in stone and it doesn't evolve, but it's always changing. 0:07:27.941 --> 0:07:30.062 Of course it is. And that's why I realized reading 0:07:30.102 --> 0:07:33.622 this article that she put words around why I love 0:07:33.702 --> 0:07:35.901 fiction so much, and the reason I love reading fiction 0:07:36.182 --> 0:07:39.902 is because there is no character that has ADHD full stop. 0:07:39.982 --> 0:07:43.742 That's the end of their story. It is the contradictions 0:07:43.782 --> 0:07:46.422 and the mess and the complications of that person and 0:07:46.462 --> 0:07:50.342 then how their traits intersect with plot and have them grow. 0:07:50.622 --> 0:07:53.142 By the end of a book, someone's always a different person, Like, 0:07:53.182 --> 0:07:56.822 that's what we're watching, and it's that evolution that I'm 0:07:56.941 --> 0:07:57.582 invested in. 0:07:57.821 --> 0:08:01.542 How much do you think this is about categorizing other 0:08:01.622 --> 0:08:04.742 people as a way to understand them, and how much 0:08:04.782 --> 0:08:09.102 she is categorizing ourselves, Like, for example, this idea of narcissist. 0:08:09.582 --> 0:08:11.862 That's a word. People don't throw it around about themselves, 0:08:11.902 --> 0:08:14.782 but they certainly throw it around about other people. So 0:08:14.821 --> 0:08:18.302 you're not just selfish or self absorbed or going through 0:08:18.342 --> 0:08:23.382 a time of main character energy, You're a narcissist. And 0:08:23.462 --> 0:08:27.261 in the same way people don't feel anxious, they have anxiety. 0:08:27.422 --> 0:08:30.622 Now I have a couple of these diagnoses, and I've 0:08:30.622 --> 0:08:35.622 found it actually really helpful for understanding my own behavior 0:08:35.662 --> 0:08:38.902 and responses to things, like a lens through which I 0:08:38.902 --> 0:08:44.342 can see them, but I also can see how very 0:08:44.462 --> 0:08:48.822 quickly it becomes boring and a default to just flatten 0:08:48.862 --> 0:08:50.222 everything through that lens. 0:08:50.502 --> 0:08:53.822 Yeah, And there was actually a really interesting data point 0:08:53.822 --> 0:08:56.381 in that article, which was according to a twenty twenty 0:08:56.382 --> 0:08:59.622 four survey, seventy two percent of gen Z girls said 0:08:59.662 --> 0:09:02.782 that mental health challenges are an important part of my identity. 0:09:03.182 --> 0:09:06.222 And that worried me because I thought, well, it's the 0:09:06.262 --> 0:09:08.702 only way to have their pain validated. That's what it says, 0:09:08.862 --> 0:09:12.622 is like I'm pain or I'm feeling distress, and when 0:09:12.702 --> 0:09:15.862 I have a label, I remember feeling people will take. 0:09:15.702 --> 0:09:16.182 Me more stage. 0:09:16.262 --> 0:09:18.542 Yeah, people will actually listen to me. And we've always 0:09:18.582 --> 0:09:22.462 minimized the pain of young girls, so I can understand 0:09:22.702 --> 0:09:26.382 why that's happening. But that's not a recipe for happiness, 0:09:26.382 --> 0:09:26.862 I suppose. 0:09:26.942 --> 0:09:30.902 But I also feel like when it comes to diagnosis, 0:09:31.102 --> 0:09:34.102 and I was talking to a friend who works in 0:09:34.102 --> 0:09:37.622 that social policy space, but I think also when it 0:09:37.622 --> 0:09:40.942 comes to understanding why a person is as they are, 0:09:41.142 --> 0:09:44.022 For example, if I had a friend who was diagnosed 0:09:44.142 --> 0:09:47.902 with depression, Yeah, I think it also allows you, as 0:09:47.902 --> 0:09:51.022 a friend or as a family member to kind of 0:09:51.062 --> 0:09:53.742 form some sort of empathy around that rather than just 0:09:53.782 --> 0:09:55.822 thinking that they are just the way they are, or 0:09:55.822 --> 0:09:57.462 like putting a label on it, saying that they are 0:09:57.502 --> 0:10:00.222 a narcissist. I was reading a blog post by a 0:10:00.222 --> 0:10:05.742 psychotherapist named Musumi Saha, and she said being nervous before 0:10:05.742 --> 0:10:08.462 a big event is labeled as anxiety. A disagreement with 0:10:08.582 --> 0:10:12.422 someone might be called toxic. Using labels too loosely can 0:10:12.462 --> 0:10:15.342 make us see normal emotions as problems. It can make 0:10:15.462 --> 0:10:18.102 us feel like we're broken when really we're just human. 0:10:18.622 --> 0:10:21.302 And it just made me realize that I have done 0:10:21.382 --> 0:10:23.702 this so much where I use therapy speak in my 0:10:23.782 --> 0:10:27.062 everyday language to kind of make excuses for things, Like 0:10:27.102 --> 0:10:29.782 there's been times I've told friends like, hey, I can't 0:10:29.822 --> 0:10:31.742 come out to dinner. I need my depression nap. And 0:10:31.782 --> 0:10:33.502 I'm like, I just needed a nap, and I just 0:10:33.542 --> 0:10:35.822 happen to have depression. Like, and I think putting that 0:10:35.902 --> 0:10:40.502 word depression with everything I say about myself gives me 0:10:40.582 --> 0:10:44.582 the excuse to use it in a serious matter without 0:10:44.662 --> 0:10:46.822 being serious. And I also use it as a blocker 0:10:46.902 --> 0:10:49.102 to stop people from questioning it, Like my friends have 0:10:49.182 --> 0:10:51.582 every right to call me out and be like, just 0:10:51.582 --> 0:10:52.142 come to dinner. 0:10:52.262 --> 0:10:56.342 Yeah, they're not going to nap. Yeah. 0:10:56.342 --> 0:10:58.742 And what what I've found through, you know, having the 0:10:58.742 --> 0:11:01.262 absolute privilege of at points in my life sitting down 0:11:01.302 --> 0:11:04.342 across from a psychologist is is how often they say 0:11:04.342 --> 0:11:08.381 to me, not that's normal, but they help explain why 0:11:08.462 --> 0:11:11.022 I might need that nap whatever. What they don't do 0:11:11.182 --> 0:11:14.142 is tell me I'm abnormal, put a label on it, 0:11:14.542 --> 0:11:17.422 and kind of go, that's the way you were built. 0:11:17.622 --> 0:11:21.622 Whereas the thing of like the classic TikTok, which is 0:11:21.862 --> 0:11:24.102 five things I thought were part of my personality, but 0:11:24.142 --> 0:11:27.462 are actually just my ADHD. I don't think that that's 0:11:27.902 --> 0:11:30.862 often that helpful. I think probably it's kind of both. 0:11:31.542 --> 0:11:33.782 It is both. I think that's exactly right. Having had 0:11:33.822 --> 0:11:38.382 that exact experience. My first reaction when I was diagnosed 0:11:38.542 --> 0:11:42.222 and had this label was I mean a million but 0:11:42.262 --> 0:11:45.022 there was some relief, going, oh, there's a reason for 0:11:45.142 --> 0:11:47.902 all of these things. But then there's also a sense 0:11:47.942 --> 0:11:51.822 of oh, I thought I had this unique, quirky personality, 0:11:52.182 --> 0:11:55.942 but I've just got all these textbook list of symptoms 0:11:56.502 --> 0:12:01.742 of this really common neurological condition, on neurodivergent condition. 0:12:01.982 --> 0:12:04.462 So there was actually a US government study done in 0:12:04.502 --> 0:12:07.702 twenty twenty one where researchers wanted to figure out what 0:12:07.782 --> 0:12:11.302 happens to people when they're given a diagnosis, not just medically, 0:12:11.342 --> 0:12:15.102 but also emotionally, socially, and practically, and they said there 0:12:15.142 --> 0:12:18.302 were those positive emotions like validation, as in like someone 0:12:18.382 --> 0:12:22.182 finally believes me, but it also changed people's self identity 0:12:22.262 --> 0:12:25.062 where they started seeing themselves as their condition. 0:12:26.182 --> 0:12:29.622 Yeah. I definitely found that that was something I had 0:12:29.662 --> 0:12:33.982 to become aware of and then avoid. It's almost like 0:12:34.062 --> 0:12:35.381 falling in love and you just want to say that 0:12:35.422 --> 0:12:37.102 person's name all the time, and you feel like you've 0:12:37.102 --> 0:12:41.302 been giving this roadmap to understanding yourself. But then does 0:12:41.382 --> 0:12:43.582 start to sound boring when you just keep going, Oh, 0:12:43.582 --> 0:12:46.542 that's my adhd oh, that's medhd, oh, that's my anxiety. 0:12:46.822 --> 0:12:49.742 I think it's an attempt to project order onto chaos 0:12:49.822 --> 0:12:52.502 as well, right, like, and have a roadmap, and have 0:12:52.542 --> 0:12:57.102 a roadmap and something as complex as personality and human relationships, 0:12:57.142 --> 0:13:01.062 like when I met my half brother and he was 0:13:01.182 --> 0:13:03.222 my mum had him when she was very young, and 0:13:03.262 --> 0:13:05.022 he was then adopted and he went and moved overseas 0:13:05.022 --> 0:13:07.182 and I met him when he was in his mid thirties, 0:13:08.062 --> 0:13:12.102 and having that expl experience exploded my view of what 0:13:12.262 --> 0:13:16.102 made personality. That's why there were brilliant moments in this essay. Wait, 0:13:17.622 --> 0:13:19.982 I mean it's not as simple as we are a 0:13:20.022 --> 0:13:22.342 product of our childhood. It's not as simple as we're 0:13:22.382 --> 0:13:23.462 a product of our genes. 0:13:23.702 --> 0:13:25.302 We are large behavior. 0:13:25.382 --> 0:13:28.582 And yes, it's this unexplained and the beauty is in 0:13:28.622 --> 0:13:29.502 the unexplained. 0:13:29.742 --> 0:13:32.222 So do you mean that there were aspects of him 0:13:32.382 --> 0:13:34.662 that were really similar to you, even though you were 0:13:34.662 --> 0:13:35.542 not raised together. 0:13:35.742 --> 0:13:38.582 Yes, and aspects that weren't exactly so sitting there, he 0:13:38.662 --> 0:13:42.542 had these certain gestures that he made that my mum said, oh, 0:13:42.582 --> 0:13:44.142 that was my father. It was like sitting there with 0:13:44.142 --> 0:13:46.742 my father, right. And then there were experiences he had 0:13:46.782 --> 0:13:49.342 in his twenties, thoughts or crisis he had that were 0:13:49.382 --> 0:13:52.342 nearly identical to things that I had gone through. And 0:13:52.422 --> 0:13:55.942 so as much as we like to think that we 0:13:55.982 --> 0:13:58.862 are the product of how we were parented, or we 0:13:58.902 --> 0:14:02.942 are exactly the product of you know, the low dopamine 0:14:02.982 --> 0:14:07.022 or serotonin in oup, like, it is this incredibly chaotic, 0:14:07.302 --> 0:14:10.062 beautiful mix. And that's why getting to know peace is 0:14:10.182 --> 0:14:10.982 so interesting. 0:14:10.982 --> 0:14:12.902 It's the getting to know people because I think this 0:14:13.022 --> 0:14:17.502 also comes up a lot in dating because I feel 0:14:17.502 --> 0:14:20.902 like when we have all these terms like gas lighting, toxic, 0:14:21.062 --> 0:14:24.622 it's so easy to chuck that label onto someone because 0:14:24.662 --> 0:14:27.102 it's much easier to say that instead of saying, oh, 0:14:27.102 --> 0:14:29.582 they just didn't like me. They were doing like all 0:14:29.622 --> 0:14:32.342 of these things. And it's even like attachment styles, right, 0:14:32.382 --> 0:14:35.142 like oh he was just avoidant and I'm anxious, so 0:14:35.142 --> 0:14:37.262 that's why we don't work out. I think it's like 0:14:37.342 --> 0:14:40.662 filtering down into the thing. Where as you said, me 0:14:40.862 --> 0:14:42.662 like it's a bit of both, and I think what 0:14:42.702 --> 0:14:45.382 you said about how you got that sense of relief, 0:14:45.822 --> 0:14:48.422 but also it's so hard to not kind of skew 0:14:48.462 --> 0:14:51.422 your identity to being that one thing where every single 0:14:51.462 --> 0:14:54.022 thing you do you're like, oh, was that because my ADHD. 0:14:54.142 --> 0:14:55.902 That's limiting, don't you. Yeah. So I think when it 0:14:55.942 --> 0:14:58.022 can become a bit of a prison or a cage 0:14:58.062 --> 0:15:01.462 is when you just think, oh, well, I'll never be 0:15:01.502 --> 0:15:04.102 able to be on time because I have ADHD, or 0:15:04.302 --> 0:15:07.742 I'll always interrupt because I have ADHD, and it can 0:15:07.782 --> 0:15:10.062 become cop out's the wrong word, bet limitation. 0:15:10.782 --> 0:15:11.102 Yeah. 0:15:11.382 --> 0:15:13.862 The dating example is such a good one because it 0:15:13.942 --> 0:15:19.062 is such a time, like the creation of a dating profile, 0:15:19.382 --> 0:15:22.742 where we are forced to use labels. It's like, how 0:15:22.742 --> 0:15:26.262 do I present myself as a product to be consumed 0:15:26.542 --> 0:15:28.742 and liked? And you've kind of got to go, well, 0:15:28.782 --> 0:15:31.662 what are my hobbies? What do I do for a living? 0:15:31.822 --> 0:15:31.902 Like? 0:15:31.942 --> 0:15:36.022 What are my personality traits? And there was this quote 0:15:36.022 --> 0:15:38.982 in the essay that said that happiness is about almost 0:15:39.022 --> 0:15:42.582 actually being able to forget yourself. And in a culture 0:15:42.622 --> 0:15:46.182 where we're constantly producing. 0:15:45.982 --> 0:15:48.462 And being perceived express. 0:15:49.262 --> 0:15:54.382 Identity, then we're not able to forget ourselves. We're always 0:15:54.382 --> 0:15:55.902 in the process of kind of labeling. 0:15:56.302 --> 0:15:58.582 It reminded me a little bit about you know how, 0:15:58.582 --> 0:16:02.622 in the last probably decade maybe less, there've been a 0:16:02.662 --> 0:16:05.702 whole lot of new names for different types of sexuality, 0:16:06.342 --> 0:16:11.862 so pan sexual, polysexual, and be sexual, and they all 0:16:11.942 --> 0:16:17.502 mean slightly different things. Instead of just being able to say, oh, 0:16:17.502 --> 0:16:20.982 I'm attracted to this person, so it's aboud identity. Like 0:16:21.222 --> 0:16:24.742 we're all retreating further and further and wanting to categorize 0:16:24.782 --> 0:16:27.502 ourselves more and more, and I need to want to 0:16:27.582 --> 0:16:30.822 understand and also belong to a community and which has 0:16:30.862 --> 0:16:33.702 been so important for it and not be ordinary. You know, 0:16:33.782 --> 0:16:35.702 I think that being able to say I'm this or 0:16:35.742 --> 0:16:38.542 I'm that, or I have it. But at a certain point, 0:16:38.582 --> 0:16:40.262 when are you just I guess that's the whole point 0:16:40.262 --> 0:16:42.102 of this story. When are you just you? When are 0:16:42.102 --> 0:16:46.502 you just the sum total of your experiences, your conditions, 0:16:46.622 --> 0:16:51.782 your mental health, your opinions, your upbringing, you know, your emotions. 0:16:52.382 --> 0:16:54.022 Yeah, something that can't be like, yeah. 0:16:53.862 --> 0:16:55.542 We sort of needing to put all these post it 0:16:55.622 --> 0:16:57.382 notes on everything and say, oh, it's my this and 0:16:57.422 --> 0:16:57.782 it's my that. 0:16:58.342 --> 0:17:01.302 After reading the sub sac were you able to identify 0:17:02.062 --> 0:17:04.742 qualities of your personality that you feel like are just 0:17:04.821 --> 0:17:05.702 your personality? 0:17:06.262 --> 0:17:07.821 Oh that's such a good question. 0:17:08.302 --> 0:17:10.821 I went really deep on the deaf personality after that 0:17:10.862 --> 0:17:12.742 because I was like, hang on, what even is personality? 0:17:12.742 --> 0:17:14.861 And of course it's the five traits that they talk about, 0:17:14.861 --> 0:17:17.542 and some are more stable than others. But we were 0:17:17.581 --> 0:17:20.462 talking about this on Parenting Out Loud the other week 0:17:20.542 --> 0:17:23.262 and I was saying, we're talking about deeply feeling kids. 0:17:23.302 --> 0:17:25.502 This is the term going around, and I was saying, 0:17:26.381 --> 0:17:30.262 I worry about labels like that because, particularly in childhood, 0:17:30.262 --> 0:17:33.742 personality is changing and you might look at your kid 0:17:33.901 --> 0:17:37.421 and go, you're shy and you're timid, and your risk averse. 0:17:37.621 --> 0:17:39.422 I have totally done this, and then the next day 0:17:39.422 --> 0:17:42.021 they surprise you. And that's how humans are. Yeah, Like, 0:17:42.581 --> 0:17:45.182 that's the beauty of a relationship with anyone is that 0:17:45.262 --> 0:17:48.101 they will change. And there are some traits like extra version, 0:17:48.141 --> 0:17:53.101 introversion apparently stays pretty stable. Others a life event will 0:17:53.462 --> 0:17:56.821 absolutely transform you. I feel as though I have a 0:17:56.861 --> 0:18:00.061 different personality, probably since having a baby, for a variety 0:18:00.061 --> 0:18:03.341 of reasons. And I know people have to profound grief 0:18:03.621 --> 0:18:06.502 or you know, experiencing a particular trauma or whatever, the 0:18:06.581 --> 0:18:07.942 personality changes. 0:18:07.861 --> 0:18:10.462 Because I am the type of person who like constantly 0:18:10.542 --> 0:18:15.022 uses therapy language in my every day. There's like a 0:18:15.061 --> 0:18:18.461 celebrity who I find myself quoting every single week. It's 0:18:18.542 --> 0:18:21.181 Jami mccirk. Yeah, you know, she played Jessa and Girls. 0:18:21.182 --> 0:18:22.262 I think I know this quo. 0:18:22.341 --> 0:18:25.462 Oh it's so good. So she does like I think 0:18:25.661 --> 0:18:27.622 once a year she does his big ask Me any 0:18:27.621 --> 0:18:29.702 Things on Instagram where she puts a question box up 0:18:29.901 --> 0:18:31.582 and the audience asked her question. 0:18:31.422 --> 0:18:32.462 And she's quite candid. 0:18:32.621 --> 0:18:35.341 She's so so candid. And one of the questions he 0:18:35.502 --> 0:18:38.782 got years ago someone wrote in and said any advice 0:18:38.821 --> 0:18:41.982 for unconfident young girls? And she just replied, I think 0:18:41.982 --> 0:18:45.542 you guys might be thinking about yourselves too much. And 0:18:45.581 --> 0:18:47.821 I say that to myself all the time. 0:18:49.742 --> 0:18:53.302 Out louders up. Next, does a memoir need to be 0:18:53.542 --> 0:18:57.422 vigorously fact checked? And whose job is that we discuss 0:18:57.581 --> 0:19:03.581 the Salt Path controversy. We have been desperate to talk 0:19:03.581 --> 0:19:06.302 about the Salt Path controversy, and we're gonna wait until 0:19:06.341 --> 0:19:08.661 Hollywood's back because we would like to put it on 0:19:08.702 --> 0:19:12.181 the record in this moment that one miss Hollywayn Wright 0:19:12.422 --> 0:19:13.422 recommended the Salt Path. 0:19:14.141 --> 0:19:15.502 Member what Holly recommended? 0:19:15.661 --> 0:19:18.181 I listened, Mia Friedman, I listened, and I wrote in 0:19:18.222 --> 0:19:21.341 my journal Hollywayin Wright just recommended the Salt Path so 0:19:21.381 --> 0:19:24.101 that I could bring it up today and say, haha, 0:19:24.222 --> 0:19:27.341 history will not be kind to hollid On No, because yes, 0:19:27.422 --> 0:19:30.781 this is very controversial. We got too impatient, though, and 0:19:30.861 --> 0:19:33.302 so today we want to start from the beginning. And 0:19:33.341 --> 0:19:34.901 I like that Holly has no right of reply. 0:19:36.182 --> 0:19:37.742 She's going to reply the match she gets back. 0:19:37.782 --> 0:19:39.141 I just know it. So. 0:19:39.621 --> 0:19:41.941 The soult Path is a memoir that was published in 0:19:41.982 --> 0:19:45.021 twenty eighteen and it was written by Rayner Wynn and 0:19:45.061 --> 0:19:47.782 it has since sold more than two million copies. That 0:19:47.942 --> 0:19:50.341 is a lot of copies. In twenty twenty four, was 0:19:50.341 --> 0:19:52.862 turned into a film. The main characters were Gillian Anderson 0:19:52.901 --> 0:19:53.902 and Jason Isaacs. 0:19:54.341 --> 0:19:55.782 It was white Lotus. 0:19:55.901 --> 0:19:59.461 Yeah. It was marketed as unflinchingly true. It tells a 0:19:59.502 --> 0:20:02.782 story of how Rayner, who was fifty five at the time, 0:20:02.821 --> 0:20:06.861 and her husband moth Win, lost their home after investing 0:20:06.942 --> 0:20:09.821 a substantial sum of money in a company owned by 0:20:09.821 --> 0:20:13.022 a friend that ultimately failed. It was kind of the 0:20:13.061 --> 0:20:16.742 gray nomad thing right, But it was also playing into 0:20:17.262 --> 0:20:19.341 something that impacts a lot of people in their fifties 0:20:19.381 --> 0:20:23.061 sixty seventies, particularly women of homelessness. Where you go, I've 0:20:23.101 --> 0:20:25.421 worked my whole life and I've ended up at this 0:20:25.422 --> 0:20:27.821 point where i have nothing but the things of my 0:20:27.861 --> 0:20:28.262 back pap. 0:20:28.302 --> 0:20:30.221 I've never heard of this book, so I've come to 0:20:30.262 --> 0:20:32.902 this like a lot of people reading about the controversy 0:20:32.942 --> 0:20:36.502 without any knowledge of the source text. It sounds like 0:20:36.742 --> 0:20:39.341