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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to mummya out loud where women come to debrief.

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Speaker 3: I am Jessie Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm m

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Speaker 3: van Em And here's what's on our agenda for today, Friday,

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Speaker 3: the eighteenth of July. We couldn't wait until hollywoods back.

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Speaker 3: We tried, We really tried, but we desperately need to

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Speaker 3: unpack the Salt Path memoir controversy. I have gone so deep,

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Speaker 3: my friends.

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Speaker 1: I have spent I reckon around twenty hours watching two

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Speaker 1: shows last weekend. I was in binge mode and they

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Speaker 1: are my recommendations. Plus we have two bits of podcast news.

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Speaker 2: And therapy speak, mental health challenges and identity. Does anyone

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Speaker 2: simply have a personality anymore?

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Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, a couple in

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Speaker 1: Taiwan have caused a bit of a stir by hiring

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Speaker 1: pole dancers to perform outside their son's high school graduation

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Speaker 1: ceremony last month. The event took place in mid June,

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Speaker 1: just as students were emerging from the junior high school.

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Speaker 1: Two female dancers began their routine on the street, and

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Speaker 1: then this is very impressive. They moved onto the roofs

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Speaker 1: of some SUVs that were rigged with poles for a

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Speaker 1: full whole performance. The crowd was full of fairly shocked students,

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Speaker 1: confused parents, and many many phones that were filming. The

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Speaker 1: star of the show was the graduating student himself, who

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Speaker 1: looked suitably mortified. I reckon he would have been about

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Speaker 1: hard to say, maybe fourteen or so.

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Speaker 2: I heard that he was also pulled into it a

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Speaker 2: little bit between.

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Speaker 1: It gets better because the star of the show was

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Speaker 1: really his mum. She was not only unapologetic, but she

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Speaker 1: choreographed the routine, and she said she wanted an unforgettable

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Speaker 1: gift for her son, and she said a friend paid

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Speaker 1: for a and she wanted it to be a more

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Speaker 1: creative idea than some of the other parents' gifts for

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Speaker 1: their kids. And it was it certainly what the police

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Speaker 1: were called because the crowd gathered and if they're not

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Speaker 1: have a permit, there was backlash. She'll be shocked to

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Speaker 1: hear a school official said, we will be encouraging more

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Speaker 1: rational celebrations moving forward.

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Speaker 2: This is what happens when you give parents creative freedom

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Speaker 2: to impress the other parents, because that's literally what she

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Speaker 2: was doing, right. She was like, all these other parents

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Speaker 2: get to do something fun for their kid. What's something

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Speaker 2: I can do that shows my skills? And I did

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Speaker 2: see a video of the dance. I didn't see the

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Speaker 2: actual pole dancing, but I saw the dance. It's quite impressive,

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Speaker 2: was it. Yeah, this isn't actually the first pole dancing

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Speaker 2: incident in China. There was a kindergarten where a principal

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Speaker 2: invited dancers to perform at the opening ceremony.

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Speaker 3: Do you think she didn't know that they were sexy dancers?

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Speaker 3: And maybe he thought that it was kind of a

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Speaker 3: kind of legal.

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Speaker 1: Pulled out, aren't. I mean sometimes Stupa's pole dance, But

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Speaker 1: also there are people who pole dance for sport. I've

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Speaker 1: done pole dancing classes. It's really hard. I think it

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Speaker 1: was maybe not quite an Olympic sport, but I think

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Speaker 1: it was, you know, it's a competitive sport.

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Speaker 3: I think that we should all light a candle for

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Speaker 3: the pole dancer in this situation, or any kind of

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Speaker 3: exotic dancer who is hired to do a job by people,

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Speaker 3: but the person that it's four hasn't actually opted in.

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Speaker 3: Can you imagine sexily dancing to someone who's clearly deeply

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Speaker 3: uncomfortable and doesn't want to be there. I think that

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Speaker 3: often about Bucks parties. Yeah, when they go, oh, we're

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Speaker 3: going to send you, and then you turn up as

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Speaker 3: a worker who's like a really good dancer and he's

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Speaker 3: very good at what you do, and you're there and

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Speaker 3: you're like, I don't reckon, he's that into it.

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Speaker 2: You're there for that one best man you really really wanted.

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Speaker 3: It who wanted it a little too much.

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Speaker 1: In the eighties, people used to send each other gorilla

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Speaker 1: grams as a prank. What's that like? It was someone

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Speaker 1: would turn up in a gorilla suit, usually to your

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Speaker 1: place of business and do I don't know what they

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Speaker 1: would actually do.

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Speaker 2: This is an actual thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, gorilla grams. They were really big in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: and they would I guess dance. I suppose that it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't wasn't sexual, but it was just kind of what

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Speaker 1: was that person signed were designed to. It's like hiring

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Speaker 1: someone a surprise strooper, but without taking their clothes off there,

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Speaker 1: which is just fur I.

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Speaker 3: Want to hire you a gorilla for your birthday? Who

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Speaker 3: sings you Happy birthday and.

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Speaker 2: I want the gorilla to also pole dance.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, no, Maya would love that to.

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Speaker 1: Actually like that?

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Speaker 2: Is it true that nobody has a personality anymore? This week,

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Speaker 2: freelance writer and author of Girls Newsletter Freyer India published

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Speaker 2: a subtec post titled Nobody has a personality Anymore. In

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Speaker 2: the piece, she explains how therapy speak and self diagnosis

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Speaker 2: have taken over how we talk about ourselves and our relationships,

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Speaker 2: turning every quirk, feeling, or decision into a symptom to

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Speaker 2: be analyzed, and in trying to explain everything through a

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Speaker 2: psychological framework, we've lost language, personality, mystery, and soul In it,

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Speaker 2: she says, we have lost the sentimental ways we use

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Speaker 2: to describe people. Not because you are lovably forgetful, not

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Speaker 2: because you are scattered and interesting and secretly loved for

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Speaker 2: never arriving on time, but because of ADHD.

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Speaker 1: But maybe you're also late, just because you're useless or selfie, sure,

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Speaker 1: all of those kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe, But also you are shy and stare at

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Speaker 2: your feet when people talk to you, not because you

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Speaker 2: are your mother's child, not because you are gentle and sweet,

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Speaker 2: and blush the same way she does. But autism you

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Speaker 2: are the way you are, not because you have a soul,

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Speaker 2: but because of your symptoms and diagnosis. Every heartfelt, annoying,

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Speaker 2: interesting piece of you categorized the fond way your family

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Speaker 2: describe you medicalized. The pieces of us once written into

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Speaker 2: wedding vows read out and eulogies remembered with the smile,

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Speaker 2: now live on doctor's notes and mental health assessments and

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Speaker 2: better help applications. We are not people anymore. We have

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Speaker 2: been products for a long time, and these are our labels.

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Speaker 3: I think this is hyperbolic. You can be someone with

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Speaker 3: quirks and very specific characteristics, and you can also have

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Speaker 3: an autism diagnosis like both of those things can be true.

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Speaker 3: And if you do go to a wedding or a funeral,

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Speaker 3: you'll notice that it is not a list of labels.

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Speaker 3: The way that we remember people or characterize people are

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Speaker 3: by their contradictions. That is how it happens. But as

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Speaker 3: with a lot of writing, I think that this writer

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Speaker 3: is reflecting to a phenomenon that's occurring on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: And there is such a difference between therapy speak and

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Speaker 3: therapy culture and sitting down with a psychologist. They're actually

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Speaker 3: two completely different things. And if you sit down with

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Speaker 3: a psychologist, they actually aren't trying to label you, and

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Speaker 3: they're not trying to position every relationship you have as

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Speaker 3: codependent or an attachment disorder or blah blah blah. They're

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Speaker 3: trying to see your personality as this complex and always

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Speaker 3: evolving thing. And what psychologists also will focus on and

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Speaker 3: have you be more open to, is that personality is

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Speaker 3: ever changing. Like that's maybe something that I have felt

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Speaker 3: a little bit shift, is that the way that we're

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Speaker 3: starting to talk about personality is as though it is

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Speaker 3: set in stone and it doesn't evolve, but it's always changing.

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Speaker 3: Of course it is. And that's why I realized reading

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Speaker 3: this article that she put words around why I love

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Speaker 3: fiction so much, and the reason I love reading fiction

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Speaker 3: is because there is no character that has ADHD full stop.

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Speaker 3: That's the end of their story. It is the contradictions

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Speaker 3: and the mess and the complications of that person and

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Speaker 3: then how their traits intersect with plot and have them grow.

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Speaker 3: By the end of a book, someone's always a different person, Like,

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Speaker 3: that's what we're watching, and it's that evolution that I'm

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Speaker 3: invested in.

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Speaker 1: How much do you think this is about categorizing other

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Speaker 1: people as a way to understand them, and how much

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Speaker 1: she is categorizing ourselves, Like, for example, this idea of narcissist.

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Speaker 1: That's a word. People don't throw it around about themselves,

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Speaker 1: but they certainly throw it around about other people. So

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Speaker 1: you're not just selfish or self absorbed or going through

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Speaker 1: a time of main character energy, You're a narcissist. And

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Speaker 1: in the same way people don't feel anxious, they have anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Now I have a couple of these diagnoses, and I've

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Speaker 1: found it actually really helpful for understanding my own behavior

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Speaker 1: and responses to things, like a lens through which I

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Speaker 1: can see them, but I also can see how very

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Speaker 1: quickly it becomes boring and a default to just flatten

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Speaker 1: everything through that lens.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And there was actually a really interesting data point

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Speaker 3: in that article, which was according to a twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: four survey, seventy two percent of gen Z girls said

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Speaker 3: that mental health challenges are an important part of my identity.

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Speaker 3: And that worried me because I thought, well, it's the

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Speaker 3: only way to have their pain validated. That's what it says,

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Speaker 3: is like I'm pain or I'm feeling distress, and when

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Speaker 3: I have a label, I remember feeling people will take.

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Speaker 1: Me more stage.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, people will actually listen to me. And we've always

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Speaker 3: minimized the pain of young girls, so I can understand

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Speaker 3: why that's happening. But that's not a recipe for happiness,

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Speaker 3: I suppose.

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Speaker 2: But I also feel like when it comes to diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: and I was talking to a friend who works in

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Speaker 2: that social policy space, but I think also when it

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Speaker 2: comes to understanding why a person is as they are,

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Speaker 2: For example, if I had a friend who was diagnosed

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Speaker 2: with depression, Yeah, I think it also allows you, as

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Speaker 2: a friend or as a family member to kind of

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Speaker 2: form some sort of empathy around that rather than just

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Speaker 2: thinking that they are just the way they are, or

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Speaker 2: like putting a label on it, saying that they are

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Speaker 2: a narcissist. I was reading a blog post by a

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Speaker 2: psychotherapist named Musumi Saha, and she said being nervous before

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Speaker 2: a big event is labeled as anxiety. A disagreement with

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Speaker 2: someone might be called toxic. Using labels too loosely can

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Speaker 2: make us see normal emotions as problems. It can make

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Speaker 2: us feel like we're broken when really we're just human.

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Speaker 2: And it just made me realize that I have done

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Speaker 2: this so much where I use therapy speak in my

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Speaker 2: everyday language to kind of make excuses for things, Like

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Speaker 2: there's been times I've told friends like, hey, I can't

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Speaker 2: come out to dinner. I need my depression nap. And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I just needed a nap, and I just

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Speaker 2: happen to have depression. Like, and I think putting that

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Speaker 2: word depression with everything I say about myself gives me

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Speaker 2: the excuse to use it in a serious matter without

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Speaker 2: being serious. And I also use it as a blocker

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Speaker 2: to stop people from questioning it, Like my friends have

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Speaker 2: every right to call me out and be like, just

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Speaker 2: come to dinner.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not going to nap. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And what what I've found through, you know, having the

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Speaker 3: absolute privilege of at points in my life sitting down

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Speaker 3: across from a psychologist is is how often they say

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Speaker 3: to me, not that's normal, but they help explain why

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Speaker 3: I might need that nap whatever. What they don't do

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Speaker 3: is tell me I'm abnormal, put a label on it,

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Speaker 3: and kind of go, that's the way you were built.

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Speaker 3: Whereas the thing of like the classic TikTok, which is

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Speaker 3: five things I thought were part of my personality, but

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Speaker 3: are actually just my ADHD. I don't think that that's

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Speaker 3: often that helpful. I think probably it's kind of both.

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Speaker 1: It is both. I think that's exactly right. Having had

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Speaker 1: that exact experience. My first reaction when I was diagnosed

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Speaker 1: and had this label was I mean a million but

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Speaker 1: there was some relief, going, oh, there's a reason for

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Speaker 1: all of these things. But then there's also a sense

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Speaker 1: of oh, I thought I had this unique, quirky personality,

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Speaker 1: but I've just got all these textbook list of symptoms

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Speaker 1: of this really common neurological condition, on neurodivergent condition.

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Speaker 2: So there was actually a US government study done in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one where researchers wanted to figure out what

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Speaker 2: happens to people when they're given a diagnosis, not just medically,

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Speaker 2: but also emotionally, socially, and practically, and they said there

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Speaker 2: were those positive emotions like validation, as in like someone

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Speaker 2: finally believes me, but it also changed people's self identity

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Speaker 2: where they started seeing themselves as their condition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I definitely found that that was something I had

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Speaker 1: to become aware of and then avoid. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: falling in love and you just want to say that

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Speaker 1: person's name all the time, and you feel like you've

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Speaker 1: been giving this roadmap to understanding yourself. But then does

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Speaker 1: start to sound boring when you just keep going, Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's my adhd oh, that's medhd, oh, that's my anxiety.

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Speaker 3: I think it's an attempt to project order onto chaos

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Speaker 3: as well, right, like, and have a roadmap, and have

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Speaker 3: a roadmap and something as complex as personality and human relationships,

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Speaker 3: like when I met my half brother and he was

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Speaker 3: my mum had him when she was very young, and

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Speaker 3: he was then adopted and he went and moved overseas

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Speaker 3: and I met him when he was in his mid thirties,

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Speaker 3: and having that expl experience exploded my view of what

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Speaker 3: made personality. That's why there were brilliant moments in this essay. Wait,

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Speaker 3: I mean it's not as simple as we are a

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Speaker 3: product of our childhood. It's not as simple as we're

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Speaker 3: a product of our genes.

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Speaker 2: We are large behavior.

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Speaker 3: And yes, it's this unexplained and the beauty is in

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Speaker 3: the unexplained.

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Speaker 1: So do you mean that there were aspects of him

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Speaker 1: that were really similar to you, even though you were

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Speaker 1: not raised together.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and aspects that weren't exactly so sitting there, he

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Speaker 3: had these certain gestures that he made that my mum said, oh,

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Speaker 3: that was my father. It was like sitting there with

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Speaker 3: my father, right. And then there were experiences he had

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Speaker 3: in his twenties, thoughts or crisis he had that were

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Speaker 3: nearly identical to things that I had gone through. And

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Speaker 3: so as much as we like to think that we

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Speaker 3: are the product of how we were parented, or we

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Speaker 3: are exactly the product of you know, the low dopamine

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Speaker 3: or serotonin in oup, like, it is this incredibly chaotic,

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Speaker 3: beautiful mix. And that's why getting to know peace is

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Speaker 3: so interesting.

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Speaker 2: It's the getting to know people because I think this

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Speaker 2: also comes up a lot in dating because I feel

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Speaker 2: like when we have all these terms like gas lighting, toxic,

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Speaker 2: it's so easy to chuck that label onto someone because

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Speaker 2: it's much easier to say that instead of saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: they just didn't like me. They were doing like all

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Speaker 2: of these things. And it's even like attachment styles, right,

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Speaker 2: like oh he was just avoidant and I'm anxious, so

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Speaker 2: that's why we don't work out. I think it's like

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Speaker 2: filtering down into the thing. Where as you said, me

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Speaker 2: like it's a bit of both, and I think what

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Speaker 2: you said about how you got that sense of relief,

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Speaker 2: but also it's so hard to not kind of skew

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Speaker 2: your identity to being that one thing where every single

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Speaker 2: thing you do you're like, oh, was that because my ADHD.

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Speaker 1: That's limiting, don't you. Yeah. So I think when it

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Speaker 1: can become a bit of a prison or a cage

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Speaker 1: is when you just think, oh, well, I'll never be

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Speaker 1: able to be on time because I have ADHD, or

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Speaker 1: I'll always interrupt because I have ADHD, and it can

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Speaker 1: become cop out's the wrong word, bet limitation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The dating example is such a good one because it

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Speaker 3: is such a time, like the creation of a dating profile,

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Speaker 3: where we are forced to use labels. It's like, how

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Speaker 3: do I present myself as a product to be consumed

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Speaker 3: and liked? And you've kind of got to go, well,

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Speaker 3: what are my hobbies? What do I do for a living?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 3: What are my personality traits? And there was this quote

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Speaker 3: in the essay that said that happiness is about almost

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Speaker 3: actually being able to forget yourself. And in a culture

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Speaker 3: where we're constantly producing.

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Speaker 1: And being perceived express.

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Speaker 3: Identity, then we're not able to forget ourselves. We're always

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Speaker 3: in the process of kind of labeling.

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Speaker 1: It reminded me a little bit about you know how,

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Speaker 1: in the last probably decade maybe less, there've been a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of new names for different types of sexuality,

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Speaker 1: so pan sexual, polysexual, and be sexual, and they all

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Speaker 1: mean slightly different things. Instead of just being able to say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm attracted to this person, so it's aboud identity. Like

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Speaker 1: we're all retreating further and further and wanting to categorize

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Speaker 1: ourselves more and more, and I need to want to

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Speaker 1: understand and also belong to a community and which has

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Speaker 1: been so important for it and not be ordinary. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think that being able to say I'm this or

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Speaker 1: I'm that, or I have it. But at a certain point,

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Speaker 1: when are you just I guess that's the whole point

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Speaker 1: of this story. When are you just you? When are

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Speaker 1: you just the sum total of your experiences, your conditions,

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Speaker 1: your mental health, your opinions, your upbringing, you know, your emotions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, something that can't be like, yeah.

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Speaker 1: We sort of needing to put all these post it

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Speaker 1: notes on everything and say, oh, it's my this and

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Speaker 1: it's my that.

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Speaker 2: After reading the sub sac were you able to identify

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Speaker 2: qualities of your personality that you feel like are just

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Speaker 2: your personality?

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Speaker 1: Oh that's such a good question.

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Speaker 3: I went really deep on the deaf personality after that

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Speaker 3: because I was like, hang on, what even is personality?

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Speaker 3: And of course it's the five traits that they talk about,

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Speaker 3: and some are more stable than others. But we were

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Speaker 3: talking about this on Parenting Out Loud the other week

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Speaker 3: and I was saying, we're talking about deeply feeling kids.

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Speaker 3: This is the term going around, and I was saying,

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Speaker 3: I worry about labels like that because, particularly in childhood,

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Speaker 3: personality is changing and you might look at your kid

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Speaker 3: and go, you're shy and you're timid, and your risk averse.

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Speaker 3: I have totally done this, and then the next day

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Speaker 3: they surprise you. And that's how humans are. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 3: that's the beauty of a relationship with anyone is that

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Speaker 3: they will change. And there are some traits like extra version,

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Speaker 3: introversion apparently stays pretty stable. Others a life event will

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Speaker 3: absolutely transform you. I feel as though I have a

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Speaker 3: different personality, probably since having a baby, for a variety

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Speaker 3: of reasons. And I know people have to profound grief

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Speaker 3: or you know, experiencing a particular trauma or whatever, the

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Speaker 3: personality changes.

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Speaker 2: Because I am the type of person who like constantly

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Speaker 2: uses therapy language in my every day. There's like a

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Speaker 2: celebrity who I find myself quoting every single week. It's

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Speaker 2: Jami mccirk. Yeah, you know, she played Jessa and Girls.

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Speaker 3: I think I know this quo.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's so good. So she does like I think

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Speaker 2: once a year she does his big ask Me any

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Speaker 2: Things on Instagram where she puts a question box up

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Speaker 2: and the audience asked her question.

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Speaker 3: And she's quite candid.

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Speaker 2: She's so so candid. And one of the questions he

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Speaker 2: got years ago someone wrote in and said any advice

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Speaker 2: for unconfident young girls? And she just replied, I think

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Speaker 2: you guys might be thinking about yourselves too much. And

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Speaker 2: I say that to myself all the time.

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Speaker 3: Out louders up. Next, does a memoir need to be

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Speaker 3: vigorously fact checked? And whose job is that we discuss

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Speaker 3: the Salt Path controversy. We have been desperate to talk

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Speaker 3: about the Salt Path controversy, and we're gonna wait until

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Speaker 3: Hollywood's back because we would like to put it on

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Speaker 3: the record in this moment that one miss Hollywayn Wright

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Speaker 3: recommended the Salt Path.

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Speaker 1: Member what Holly recommended?

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Speaker 3: I listened, Mia Friedman, I listened, and I wrote in

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Speaker 3: my journal Hollywayin Wright just recommended the Salt Path so

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Speaker 3: that I could bring it up today and say, haha,

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Speaker 3: history will not be kind to hollid On No, because yes,

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Speaker 3: this is very controversial. We got too impatient, though, and

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Speaker 3: so today we want to start from the beginning. And

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Speaker 3: I like that Holly has no right of reply.

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Speaker 2: She's going to reply the match she gets back.

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Speaker 1: I just know it. So.

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Speaker 3: The soult Path is a memoir that was published in

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen and it was written by Rayner Wynn and

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Speaker 3: it has since sold more than two million copies. That

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Speaker 3: is a lot of copies. In twenty twenty four, was

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Speaker 3: turned into a film. The main characters were Gillian Anderson

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Speaker 3: and Jason Isaacs.

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Speaker 1: It was white Lotus.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. It was marketed as unflinchingly true. It tells a

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Speaker 3: story of how Rayner, who was fifty five at the time,

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Speaker 3: and her husband moth Win, lost their home after investing

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Speaker 3: a substantial sum of money in a company owned by

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Speaker 3: a friend that ultimately failed. It was kind of the

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00:20:13,061 --> 00:20:16,742
Speaker 3: gray nomad thing right, But it was also playing into

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Speaker 3: something that impacts a lot of people in their fifties

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Speaker 3: sixty seventies, particularly women of homelessness. Where you go, I've

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Speaker 3: worked my whole life and I've ended up at this

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Speaker 3: point where i have nothing but the things of my

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Speaker 3: back pap.

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of this book, so I've come to

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Speaker 1: this like a lot of people reading about the controversy

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00:20:32,942 --> 00:20:36,502
Speaker 1: without any knowledge of the source text. It sounds like

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00:20:36,742 --> 00:20:39,341
Speaker 1: the Salt Path. The book was a little bit like

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Speaker 1: Cheryl Strade's Wild Wild, Yes, someone going on is why

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Speaker 1: I didn't hear of it? Someone going on a long

404
00:20:44,262 --> 00:20:47,061
Speaker 1: walk in nature? Yeap, not by kind of book exactly.

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Speaker 3: And on top of this, the reason why this book

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Speaker 3: was so impactful is that Moth had been diagnosed with

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00:20:53,821 --> 00:20:57,741
Speaker 3: a rare neuro degenerative disease and they decide to then

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Speaker 3: embark on this kind of a name is moth, Well,

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Speaker 3: I think it comes from because his name is Tim,

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00:21:01,661 --> 00:21:06,181
Speaker 3: So Tim Moth. I've never heard moth. Yeah, as a

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Speaker 3: little so.

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Speaker 2: Instead of the nickname being Tim, it's moth like moth, shallow.

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00:21:09,381 --> 00:21:15,821
Speaker 3: Man, endearing pet name. They both decided they were going

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Speaker 3: to walk along the Southwest Coast Path in southwest England.

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Speaker 3: And look, that.

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Speaker 1: Book's so horrendous. People love.

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Speaker 2: It's like a self help kind of situation.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love to eat pray loves.

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Speaker 2: So it's like eat pray love except a couple yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, on a long walk and this illness and

421
00:21:36,462 --> 00:21:38,702
Speaker 3: the idea is as well that you know, he's been

422
00:21:38,901 --> 00:21:41,381
Speaker 3: given certain things to expect from this illness, and the

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Speaker 3: walking really helped and that was part of the story.

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Speaker 1: My understanding is that the illness, the diagnosis is usually

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Speaker 1: pretty terminal and not something that you can walk off.

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Speaker 3: No, so you often have a life expectancy of about

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Speaker 3: six to eight years. Okay, now, this is all well

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00:21:57,821 --> 00:21:59,982
Speaker 3: and good, except according to an article in The Observer

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Speaker 3: which was published earlier this month, they were never homeless.

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Speaker 3: They did lose one home, but that was a result

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Speaker 3: of embezzling the equivalent of about eighty five thousand Australian dollars.

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Speaker 3: There are also questions about Moth's illness. And that's not

433
00:22:13,341 --> 00:22:15,901
Speaker 3: even his real name, and Rayner is not her real name.

434
00:22:15,942 --> 00:22:17,542
Speaker 2: Wait, so he chose the name Moth.

435
00:22:17,942 --> 00:22:20,661
Speaker 3: Well, They're real names are Sally and Tim. Sally and

436
00:22:20,702 --> 00:22:21,262
Speaker 3: Tim Walker.

437
00:22:21,302 --> 00:22:22,902
Speaker 2: That doesn't have the same ren it does it.

438
00:22:23,101 --> 00:22:26,061
Speaker 3: I liked the Rainer and the moth that I can

439
00:22:26,141 --> 00:22:27,782
Speaker 3: kind of forgive in a memoir if you want to

440
00:22:27,782 --> 00:22:30,622
Speaker 3: have a kind of pen name situation. Yeah, fine, it's

441
00:22:30,621 --> 00:22:34,381
Speaker 3: probably the other stuff that isn't so forgivable. Look Sally

442
00:22:34,581 --> 00:22:38,341
Speaker 3: stole that substantial sum of money while working as a

443
00:22:38,341 --> 00:22:41,341
Speaker 3: bookkeeper in the mid two thousands, but they settled the

444
00:22:41,381 --> 00:22:44,942
Speaker 3: dispute privately. The details get really weedy here, but long

445
00:22:45,022 --> 00:22:49,141
Speaker 3: story short, debt collectors took their home and Sally Walker

446
00:22:49,182 --> 00:22:52,061
Speaker 3: has written a very long blog post where she's confirmed this.

447
00:22:52,462 --> 00:22:56,542
Speaker 1: So interestingly, one reason for changing your name is that

448
00:22:56,581 --> 00:22:58,821
Speaker 1: people can't then google you and find things out about you.

449
00:22:58,942 --> 00:22:59,222
Speaker 3: Yeah.

450
00:22:59,302 --> 00:22:59,661
Speaker 1: Yeah.

451
00:23:00,141 --> 00:23:02,621
Speaker 3: Also, the reason they were ever really homeless is because

452
00:23:02,621 --> 00:23:04,861
Speaker 3: they did have a property technically in France that they

453
00:23:04,942 --> 00:23:08,141
Speaker 3: still owned throughout all of this. The Observer then cast

454
00:23:08,182 --> 00:23:12,622
Speaker 3: outs on Walker's illness. They interviewed multiple medical experts who

455
00:23:12,621 --> 00:23:15,982
Speaker 3: said that, you know, the average life expectancy is six

456
00:23:16,022 --> 00:23:19,381
Speaker 3: to eight years, and I think it's now eighteen years later,

457
00:23:19,502 --> 00:23:22,622
Speaker 3: Tim Walker is still alive. What has Raina Win said?

458
00:23:22,702 --> 00:23:24,901
Speaker 3: So she's written this big blog post and she says

459
00:23:25,141 --> 00:23:28,022
Speaker 3: that the house in France was uninhabitable. It was just

460
00:23:28,101 --> 00:23:30,221
Speaker 3: like basically stones like you couldn't live there and they

461
00:23:30,262 --> 00:23:33,022
Speaker 3: couldn't sell it. Actually looks like she might be telling

462
00:23:33,022 --> 00:23:35,902
Speaker 3: the truth about that, right. She has also shared documents

463
00:23:35,942 --> 00:23:40,581
Speaker 3: that seem to confirm her husband's diagnosis, although some say

464
00:23:41,141 --> 00:23:43,141
Speaker 3: you're a little bit vague on the details, and a

465
00:23:43,141 --> 00:23:45,341
Speaker 3: lot of people with this specific illness. This is the

466
00:23:45,341 --> 00:23:48,022
Speaker 3: issue with writing about health is that it became sort

467
00:23:48,022 --> 00:23:50,421
Speaker 3: of prescriptive to them, and they had this hope that

468
00:23:50,782 --> 00:23:53,262
Speaker 3: maybe if I just did a long walk, then I

469
00:23:53,381 --> 00:23:57,382
Speaker 3: too could improve a lot of mon Yes, so there's

470
00:23:57,422 --> 00:24:01,821
Speaker 3: a lot to unpack here. Mea what kind of responsibility

471
00:24:01,861 --> 00:24:05,502
Speaker 3: do you think the publisher has here to fact check?

472
00:24:06,861 --> 00:24:09,262
Speaker 1: I want to jump past the publisher and talk about

473
00:24:09,262 --> 00:24:13,782
Speaker 1: the first right, because a lot of people who read

474
00:24:13,782 --> 00:24:16,502
Speaker 1: this book, who loved this book, have said, I'm really

475
00:24:16,581 --> 00:24:19,262
Speaker 1: really upset. We have a similar thing happened many years

476
00:24:19,262 --> 00:24:21,101
Speaker 1: ago with an author called James Frey who wrote a

477
00:24:21,222 --> 00:24:23,941
Speaker 1: memoir called A Million Little Pieces. He was not an

478
00:24:23,942 --> 00:24:26,942
Speaker 1: Oprah's Book Club. It then turned out that his memoir

479
00:24:27,141 --> 00:24:29,101
Speaker 1: most of it all, I think all of it wasn't true.

480
00:24:29,782 --> 00:24:34,581
Speaker 1: That was a huge controversy. We've had these before. Helen

481
00:24:34,621 --> 00:24:37,222
Speaker 1: de Medenko a long time ago. I think she said

482
00:24:37,222 --> 00:24:40,462
Speaker 1: she was Yugoslavian, but she was just an Australian who

483
00:24:40,581 --> 00:24:43,341
Speaker 1: was not Yugoslavian, and that was not her name. Her

484
00:24:43,422 --> 00:24:47,341
Speaker 1: name is Helen Darvil. So my question about when you

485
00:24:47,422 --> 00:24:49,861
Speaker 1: read something that you think is memoir, because I read

486
00:24:49,861 --> 00:24:52,542
Speaker 1: a million little pieces I thought it was great. When

487
00:24:52,542 --> 00:24:54,502
Speaker 1: I found out that a lot of it wasn't true,

488
00:24:54,861 --> 00:24:59,661
Speaker 1: did I care or no? Because we have something called fiction,

489
00:24:59,782 --> 00:25:04,061
Speaker 1: and I mean, I understand that it's storytelling. Is it

490
00:25:04,141 --> 00:25:05,662
Speaker 1: not just as good?

491
00:25:05,901 --> 00:25:09,701
Speaker 3: Oh, it's totally different. It's totally it's an element of

492
00:25:09,742 --> 00:25:13,381
Speaker 3: absolute manipulation. And I think that what's an important point

493
00:25:13,381 --> 00:25:16,142
Speaker 3: to make is that nonfiction is easier to sell. It's

494
00:25:16,182 --> 00:25:18,581
Speaker 3: easy to market. The reason it's easy to market I

495
00:25:18,702 --> 00:25:20,262
Speaker 3: was told this. I've written a nonfiction book and a

496
00:25:20,262 --> 00:25:25,061
Speaker 3: fiction book. Nonfiction people want to interview because story. How

497
00:25:25,101 --> 00:25:28,821
Speaker 3: many fiction writers, unless they're Leanne Moriarty, do you actually hear?

498
00:25:29,141 --> 00:25:32,222
Speaker 3: It's really hard to get your fiction book in front

499
00:25:32,222 --> 00:25:33,142
Speaker 3: of people's eyes.

500
00:25:33,262 --> 00:25:35,141
Speaker 1: Because it's like, tell me about this made up story.

501
00:25:35,141 --> 00:25:38,302
Speaker 3: It's like yeah, yeah, So if you say this is

502
00:25:38,341 --> 00:25:42,101
Speaker 3: nonfiction this is a true story, the investment of a reader,

503
00:25:42,141 --> 00:25:44,061
Speaker 3: and I think that a book is very different to

504
00:25:44,061 --> 00:25:46,262
Speaker 3: any other type of media because of how long you

505
00:25:46,302 --> 00:25:49,901
Speaker 3: spend with those people, the details that you absorb, the hope,

506
00:25:49,982 --> 00:25:52,061
Speaker 3: the connections that you make, and then to find out

507
00:25:52,061 --> 00:25:56,581
Speaker 3: that isn't true feels like such an enormous betrayal and

508
00:25:56,621 --> 00:26:00,341
Speaker 3: I'm so surprised. I was listening to a podcast about

509
00:26:00,341 --> 00:26:02,661
Speaker 3: this where they were saying that the way the contract

510
00:26:02,702 --> 00:26:07,622
Speaker 3: works is that the publisher has Rayner signed something, where

511
00:26:07,661 --> 00:26:10,462
Speaker 3: Rayner says this is all true. Basically, the onness is

512
00:26:10,502 --> 00:26:13,542
Speaker 3: on the author, and Rayner got a very small book

513
00:26:13,581 --> 00:26:16,782
Speaker 3: advance for this. I think it was maybe like ten

514
00:26:17,341 --> 00:26:21,422
Speaker 3: pounds twenty thousand pounds. Since she's made millions and millions

515
00:26:21,742 --> 00:26:27,182
Speaker 3: of dollars off royalties, but this keeps happening, it seems

516
00:26:27,302 --> 00:26:30,222
Speaker 3: because legally, I don't think that the onus is on

517
00:26:30,262 --> 00:26:31,581
Speaker 3: the publisher. I think it's on the writer.

518
00:26:31,742 --> 00:26:35,462
Speaker 1: Well, I've written a couple of memoirs. I can't remember

519
00:26:35,502 --> 00:26:38,142
Speaker 1: if I signed anything. I mean, they're always worried about

520
00:26:38,182 --> 00:26:42,381
Speaker 1: anything legal, so anything where you talk about other people

521
00:26:42,661 --> 00:26:44,342
Speaker 1: or make claims about other people.

522
00:26:44,702 --> 00:26:46,181
Speaker 3: But it's not like they would have sat down with

523
00:26:46,222 --> 00:26:48,181
Speaker 3: your mum and dad and gone, hey, this story that

524
00:26:48,222 --> 00:26:50,302
Speaker 3: may have told about being four, was that true?

525
00:26:50,381 --> 00:26:53,101
Speaker 1: No, And they don't ask for medical records. No, no, no,

526
00:26:53,542 --> 00:26:56,821
Speaker 1: because that would be intrusive. Although in the case of

527
00:26:56,821 --> 00:26:58,782
Speaker 1: something like Bell Gibson, there was a huge amount of

528
00:26:58,821 --> 00:27:02,022
Speaker 1: backlash and criticism of the publisher, which I think was

529
00:27:02,101 --> 00:27:05,141
Speaker 1: valid because if you know, in my memoir, I wrote

530
00:27:05,141 --> 00:27:07,861
Speaker 1: about having a miscarriage, I wrote about anxiety, I wrote

531
00:27:07,901 --> 00:27:13,022
Speaker 1: about various things, but I didn't write about curing myself

532
00:27:13,061 --> 00:27:14,341
Speaker 1: of a particular.

533
00:27:14,061 --> 00:27:17,262
Speaker 2: I think that's where the difference comes in because this book,

534
00:27:17,341 --> 00:27:20,022
Speaker 2: although it's a memoir, like labeled as a memoir, it's

535
00:27:20,061 --> 00:27:22,621
Speaker 2: more like a self help kind of book. Like that

536
00:27:22,661 --> 00:27:24,542
Speaker 2: book would have had exactly what you said, so many

537
00:27:25,262 --> 00:27:27,661
Speaker 2: people readers in like a chokehold of going this is

538
00:27:27,702 --> 00:27:29,542
Speaker 2: the book that is going to help me through like

539
00:27:29,581 --> 00:27:33,341
Speaker 2: my next stage. And I remember something so different, but

540
00:27:33,581 --> 00:27:36,902
Speaker 2: I know the exact sense of betrayal because my favorite

541
00:27:36,982 --> 00:27:42,022
Speaker 2: movie for the longest, longest time was The blind Side. Yeah,

542
00:27:42,061 --> 00:27:44,461
Speaker 2: and that was based on a true story. Sandra Bullock

543
00:27:44,462 --> 00:27:46,941
Speaker 2: wan Academy Awards for it. It was a massive movie.

544
00:27:47,101 --> 00:27:47,742
Speaker 1: What was it about?

545
00:27:47,782 --> 00:27:51,581
Speaker 2: Again, it was about this family, this really successful, rich

546
00:27:51,661 --> 00:27:56,622
Speaker 2: family in Memphis who adopted a black kid and took

547
00:27:56,661 --> 00:27:59,382
Speaker 2: them into his family and he became this massive football star.

548
00:27:59,861 --> 00:28:02,101
Speaker 2: And the blindside was about how he became huge. He

549
00:28:02,182 --> 00:28:04,502
Speaker 2: went into college and they funded all of that and

550
00:28:04,542 --> 00:28:06,141
Speaker 2: he was just making a lot of money.

551
00:28:06,022 --> 00:28:09,222
Speaker 3: And beautiful success story, beautiful but.

552
00:28:11,222 --> 00:28:12,782
Speaker 1: True and how did it come out?

553
00:28:13,022 --> 00:28:16,101
Speaker 2: So then after that we found out that the child

554
00:28:16,141 --> 00:28:19,901
Speaker 2: that the movie was about, Michael Orr, was suing the

555
00:28:19,982 --> 00:28:24,302
Speaker 2: Touwy family that was Sandra Bullock was suing that family

556
00:28:24,661 --> 00:28:27,341
Speaker 2: saying that he actually wasn't adopted, he was under a

557
00:28:27,341 --> 00:28:30,941
Speaker 2: conservatorship and the family was taking all the money that

558
00:28:30,982 --> 00:28:33,022
Speaker 2: he was making and taking all the money that the

559
00:28:33,061 --> 00:28:35,821
Speaker 2: movie was made from Hollywood. And it was one of

560
00:28:35,821 --> 00:28:38,862
Speaker 2: those situations that was so so horrible. And then he

561
00:28:38,862 --> 00:28:40,542
Speaker 2: said a lot of the stuff that happened in the

562
00:28:40,582 --> 00:28:43,302
Speaker 2: movie was not true, Like he could actually read and

563
00:28:43,342 --> 00:28:48,582
Speaker 2: write and he was well educated. The huge racial stereotypes

564
00:28:48,622 --> 00:28:51,222
Speaker 2: are happening, and it just was one of those things

565
00:28:51,222 --> 00:28:54,102
Speaker 2: whereas as someone who was so invested in that film,

566
00:28:54,422 --> 00:28:57,382
Speaker 2: I was just digging and digging and digging to see

567
00:28:57,462 --> 00:29:00,062
Speaker 2: if this could be unproven because there was just something

568
00:29:00,102 --> 00:29:02,262
Speaker 2: that really watched when I was really young, and I

569
00:29:02,342 --> 00:29:04,902
Speaker 2: just wanted it to be true so badly.

570
00:29:05,302 --> 00:29:07,622
Speaker 3: I read a book when I was a teenager called

571
00:29:07,782 --> 00:29:11,942
Speaker 3: Forbidden Love, and it was Alakuri a Norma Kouri, and

572
00:29:12,022 --> 00:29:15,021
Speaker 3: it was about her growing up in Jordan and her

573
00:29:15,062 --> 00:29:18,502
Speaker 3: best friend Dahlia, who fell in love with like a

574
00:29:18,661 --> 00:29:23,382
Speaker 3: Christian soldier and ultimately died by an honor killing that

575
00:29:23,622 --> 00:29:24,902
Speaker 3: her father was responsible for.

576
00:29:25,142 --> 00:29:27,221
Speaker 1: She wrote, she told the story of her best friend, yes,

577
00:29:27,262 --> 00:29:28,302
Speaker 1: he was killed, yes.

578
00:29:28,102 --> 00:29:30,461
Speaker 3: And then she moved to the US and it was

579
00:29:30,502 --> 00:29:34,342
Speaker 3: this phenomenon, this book, right, And then it was actually

580
00:29:34,422 --> 00:29:37,822
Speaker 3: Australian journalists Malcolm Knox and I think Caroline Overington was

581
00:29:37,862 --> 00:29:40,742
Speaker 3: really involved in the reporting. Where they went there was

582
00:29:40,782 --> 00:29:44,221
Speaker 3: something like seventy two factual inaccuracies, really basic stuff like

583
00:29:44,502 --> 00:29:47,862
Speaker 3: the border of Jordan was wrong, the banknotes were wrong,

584
00:29:48,022 --> 00:29:49,622
Speaker 3: like all of these kind of and they were like,

585
00:29:49,661 --> 00:29:52,582
Speaker 3: this is really really strange. And then people within Jordan

586
00:29:52,661 --> 00:29:54,942
Speaker 3: started saying, this is not a big country. We would

587
00:29:54,982 --> 00:29:57,822
Speaker 3: have heard. This is like a horrific thing to happen.

588
00:29:57,822 --> 00:30:01,181
Speaker 3: We would have heard. And so they dig and they

589
00:30:01,222 --> 00:30:04,302
Speaker 3: dig and they dig. Turns out this woman never existed,

590
00:30:04,782 --> 00:30:08,302
Speaker 3: like Norma Kuri hadn't even been in Jordan at that time.

591
00:30:08,342 --> 00:30:11,982
Speaker 3: There's a brilliant document called Forbidden Lies that Caroline Overington

592
00:30:12,062 --> 00:30:13,822
Speaker 3: is in. It had to be pulled from shelves, like

593
00:30:13,862 --> 00:30:18,742
Speaker 3: the book was totally fictional. And the reason why that

594
00:30:18,982 --> 00:30:21,182
Speaker 3: was so bad was because it came out in two

595
00:30:21,222 --> 00:30:24,741
Speaker 3: thousand and three, that is two years after September eleventh.

596
00:30:25,222 --> 00:30:31,182
Speaker 3: The anti Muslim sentiment, the Islamophobia that was so prevalent

597
00:30:31,222 --> 00:30:34,062
Speaker 3: at the time. People were so invested in having this

598
00:30:34,222 --> 00:30:38,741
Speaker 3: vision of kind of the oppressed Muslim woman. And to

599
00:30:38,822 --> 00:30:42,302
Speaker 3: write this, to have me so emotionally invested in that

600
00:30:42,382 --> 00:30:44,181
Speaker 3: book and go, this is such a tragedy, look at

601
00:30:44,222 --> 00:30:48,502
Speaker 3: how these cultures work. It just was a totally fictional story.

602
00:30:48,622 --> 00:30:52,462
Speaker 1: I know it's hard to unscramble how you feel about something.

603
00:30:52,542 --> 00:30:56,142
Speaker 1: But had that been categorized as fiction, you're saying it

604
00:30:56,142 --> 00:30:58,902
Speaker 1: wouldn't have sold as well. No, but would you have

605
00:30:59,062 --> 00:31:02,102
Speaker 1: enjoyed reading it as much? Or there's something and new

606
00:31:02,142 --> 00:31:04,382
Speaker 1: for the blind side? Is there something about knowing that

607
00:31:04,422 --> 00:31:08,181
Speaker 1: it's true that enhances your enjoyment of a sect?

608
00:31:08,582 --> 00:31:11,062
Speaker 3: It totally changed a conversation when you're told it's true

609
00:31:11,062 --> 00:31:13,742
Speaker 3: one hundred percent, And even with that book, it's also

610
00:31:13,902 --> 00:31:15,782
Speaker 3: because those code be true.

611
00:31:15,822 --> 00:31:18,822
Speaker 2: Stories like honor killings do happen. So I feel like

612
00:31:19,222 --> 00:31:21,462
Speaker 2: making up a fake story about that and then making

613
00:31:21,502 --> 00:31:23,701
Speaker 2: so much money and moving to the US when it

614
00:31:23,862 --> 00:31:26,582
Speaker 2: actually is happening in the world is just another step

615
00:31:26,702 --> 00:31:27,342
Speaker 2: way too fun.

616
00:31:27,502 --> 00:31:30,662
Speaker 3: It's exploiting. It's totally exploiting a culture that you actually

617
00:31:30,702 --> 00:31:33,702
Speaker 3: have no right to write about. And what's interesting too

618
00:31:33,822 --> 00:31:36,421
Speaker 3: is a James Fray example. And I believe in this

619
00:31:36,502 --> 00:31:39,342
Speaker 3: example there's a big question mark about what happens to

620
00:31:39,382 --> 00:31:42,582
Speaker 3: the money. Yes, because James Frey, I'm pretty sure he's

621
00:31:42,622 --> 00:31:45,622
Speaker 3: still a pretty rich dude, and a lot of the readers,

622
00:31:45,661 --> 00:31:49,262
Speaker 3: because this is in the US, readers suit him like

623
00:31:49,342 --> 00:31:52,742
Speaker 3: individual ratings for life. I want to be compensated.

624
00:31:53,582 --> 00:31:58,102
Speaker 1: I think their publishers often allow people to refunds, get refunds,

625
00:31:58,742 --> 00:31:59,902
Speaker 1: but did you get a refund?

626
00:31:59,982 --> 00:32:01,982
Speaker 3: Well, what's funny is you might have a few refunds.

627
00:32:02,062 --> 00:32:03,422
Speaker 3: Do you know how many people have bought The Salt

628
00:32:03,462 --> 00:32:05,502
Speaker 3: Path in the last few weeks? Like the book, scan

629
00:32:05,661 --> 00:32:07,182
Speaker 3: numbers would have just skyrocket and.

630
00:32:07,062 --> 00:32:07,742
Speaker 1: Watched the movie.

631
00:32:08,102 --> 00:32:11,502
Speaker 3: Yeah, So in terms of the money.

632
00:32:11,622 --> 00:32:14,181
Speaker 1: There was an interview with Jillian Anderson. This is before

633
00:32:14,222 --> 00:32:16,822
Speaker 1: all this came out and people are now going back

634
00:32:16,822 --> 00:32:18,902
Speaker 1: and looking. When she was promoting the movie, someone said, oh,

635
00:32:18,902 --> 00:32:21,502
Speaker 1: did you meet Rayner? How did you find her? And

636
00:32:21,902 --> 00:32:27,422
Speaker 1: Jillian Anderson said, I found her guarded Jerry, Yeah, which

637
00:32:27,502 --> 00:32:28,502
Speaker 1: was kind of cryptic.

638
00:32:29,262 --> 00:32:31,822
Speaker 2: You know who I want to hear from Jason Isaacs

639
00:32:32,661 --> 00:32:36,702
Speaker 2: because from White Loaders, we all know he's a messy bitch. Yeahs.

640
00:32:36,862 --> 00:32:38,542
Speaker 2: Friendships are made, friendships are lost.

641
00:32:38,661 --> 00:32:43,502
Speaker 1: The dad on White Lotus with his prosthetic penis co moth.

642
00:32:43,661 --> 00:32:44,302
Speaker 2: What do you think?

643
00:32:44,742 --> 00:32:48,622
Speaker 3: Tell us your opinion before we go into eCos. I

644
00:32:48,661 --> 00:32:52,142
Speaker 3: wanted to share a low from the week that just passed.

645
00:32:53,102 --> 00:32:55,622
Speaker 3: We talk a bit about sharing from a scar, not

646
00:32:55,742 --> 00:32:59,062
Speaker 3: a wound, but I think sometimes there's a bit of

647
00:32:59,182 --> 00:33:03,502
Speaker 3: utility in examining the wound while it's fresh. And while

648
00:33:03,502 --> 00:33:05,982
Speaker 3: we were recording Wednesday Show last week, I was going

649
00:33:06,022 --> 00:33:10,142
Speaker 3: through something privately, and that night I tried to put

650
00:33:10,142 --> 00:33:13,702
Speaker 3: words around it. So here's what I wrote. I'm sitting

651
00:33:13,702 --> 00:33:15,742
Speaker 3: in the hospital where I gave birth to my daughter

652
00:33:15,782 --> 00:33:18,701
Speaker 3: almost exactly two years ago, but this time I'm not

653
00:33:18,742 --> 00:33:21,142
Speaker 3: in a bed with a bassinette tucked in close beside it.

654
00:33:21,462 --> 00:33:24,862
Speaker 3: I'm in emergency, handing over yarine samples with specks of blood,

655
00:33:25,142 --> 00:33:27,382
Speaker 3: knowing in some part of me that I've just had

656
00:33:27,742 --> 00:33:31,582
Speaker 3: or I'm having a miscarriage. It's so silly. I tested

657
00:33:31,582 --> 00:33:34,981
Speaker 3: so ridiculously early. At first, I didn't even think I

658
00:33:34,982 --> 00:33:37,782
Speaker 3: saw a line that. Then I looked closer. You know

659
00:33:37,822 --> 00:33:40,222
Speaker 3: you're desperate when you take a photo and start adjusting

660
00:33:40,222 --> 00:33:43,741
Speaker 3: the contrast. There was the faintest line, a whisper of

661
00:33:43,782 --> 00:33:46,941
Speaker 3: a promise your life could be about to radically change, or,

662
00:33:46,982 --> 00:33:49,502
Speaker 3: as the case may be, not at all. The next

663
00:33:49,582 --> 00:33:51,382
Speaker 3: day the line was a bit darker than a bit

664
00:33:51,462 --> 00:33:54,462
Speaker 3: darker visible to the naked eye. At least I told

665
00:33:54,542 --> 00:33:57,462
Speaker 3: Luca and my sister. I was so excited. I worked

666
00:33:57,462 --> 00:34:00,421
Speaker 3: out the jew date, the gap between my babies. I

667
00:34:00,462 --> 00:34:02,822
Speaker 3: was asked about a work commitment slaid in for early

668
00:34:02,862 --> 00:34:05,342
Speaker 3: next year, and meekly tried to pry my way out

669
00:34:05,382 --> 00:34:08,661
Speaker 3: of it. They'd know soon enough. I thought about it

670
00:34:08,742 --> 00:34:12,102
Speaker 3: every second of every day. It's like the knowledge existed

671
00:34:12,142 --> 00:34:16,181
Speaker 3: in my pulse, and I suppose it literally did. I'd

672
00:34:16,222 --> 00:34:18,742
Speaker 3: been afraid of how much I wanted this. It feels

673
00:34:18,781 --> 00:34:23,302
Speaker 3: dangerous to want anything this much. Months have passed negative tests.

674
00:34:23,741 --> 00:34:26,221
Speaker 3: I didn't know I could feel so much disdain for

675
00:34:26,261 --> 00:34:31,022
Speaker 3: a pad, but then a positive test. No alcohol, no

676
00:34:31,181 --> 00:34:35,301
Speaker 3: Quadrill pregnancy vitamins. The sore boobs were a giveaway. I

677
00:34:35,342 --> 00:34:38,622
Speaker 3: remembered them from last time, but they're not sore anymore.

678
00:34:39,422 --> 00:34:41,942
Speaker 3: I was at the doctor when it happened. Luna had

679
00:34:41,982 --> 00:34:44,701
Speaker 3: a cold, and I darted to the bathroom as we

680
00:34:44,781 --> 00:34:47,582
Speaker 3: finished up. I'd been spotting, but when I wiped there

681
00:34:47,622 --> 00:34:50,741
Speaker 3: was blood, too much blood, and there were cramps like

682
00:34:50,781 --> 00:34:53,222
Speaker 3: an ache in my lower stomach and back.

683
00:34:53,822 --> 00:34:54,422
Speaker 1: It hurt.

684
00:34:54,741 --> 00:34:57,261
Speaker 3: But where did the knowing come from? That night, as

685
00:34:57,261 --> 00:34:59,902
Speaker 3: I laid in bed having taken panadole, which felt like

686
00:34:59,942 --> 00:35:02,902
Speaker 3: a betrayal of some kind, like I was muting an alarm,

687
00:35:03,422 --> 00:35:08,022
Speaker 3: I felt lonely. They were gone, disappeared. I'd liked so

688
00:35:08,181 --> 00:35:11,382
Speaker 3: much knowing that they were there, and I wasn't grieving

689
00:35:11,661 --> 00:35:14,622
Speaker 3: a baby. I can't imagine losing a baby further along,

690
00:35:14,781 --> 00:35:16,861
Speaker 3: when they're a tiny thing your body has got to know,

691
00:35:17,181 --> 00:35:20,302
Speaker 3: as familiar as your own shadow, a companion through everything.

692
00:35:21,261 --> 00:35:24,221
Speaker 3: I was grieving hope, the future that i'd let unfold,

693
00:35:24,502 --> 00:35:28,781
Speaker 3: the excitement, and for a moment other people's joy is

694
00:35:28,822 --> 00:35:32,301
Speaker 3: all I see. She is pregnant, she has just had

695
00:35:32,302 --> 00:35:34,942
Speaker 3: her third She's walking down the street with two little ones,

696
00:35:34,982 --> 00:35:37,622
Speaker 3: so close in age, with no idea how lucky she is.

697
00:35:38,542 --> 00:35:41,741
Speaker 3: I'm being assaulted by pregnant bellies and ultrasound pictures and

698
00:35:41,781 --> 00:35:45,261
Speaker 3: family photos. And they're beautiful, but they're also brutal to

699
00:35:45,302 --> 00:35:48,142
Speaker 3: the people I empathized with before this. I'm sorry that

700
00:35:48,221 --> 00:35:52,301
Speaker 3: I didn't understand. I didn't understand the impatience, the frustration,

701
00:35:52,781 --> 00:35:56,301
Speaker 3: the grief, the anger, the isolation that it can feel

702
00:35:56,342 --> 00:36:00,181
Speaker 3: like you lost something you only ever really saw. I

703
00:36:00,261 --> 00:36:03,501
Speaker 3: experienced early what so many women go through much later,

704
00:36:03,582 --> 00:36:06,942
Speaker 3: and it is awful to experience a pregnancy you wanted

705
00:36:06,942 --> 00:36:10,502
Speaker 3: more than anything leave your body. However more however, early

706
00:36:11,022 --> 00:36:14,462
Speaker 3: leaves you with an emptiness, a silence, something that is

707
00:36:14,502 --> 00:36:17,741
Speaker 3: over before it ever properly began. And I didn't want

708
00:36:17,741 --> 00:36:20,062
Speaker 3: this story to be a footnote to a pregnancy announcement,

709
00:36:20,221 --> 00:36:23,261
Speaker 3: hopefully someday down the track, a story of victory over

710
00:36:23,302 --> 00:36:25,861
Speaker 3: struggle where it didn't matter so much because we got

711
00:36:25,862 --> 00:36:28,582
Speaker 3: our healthy baby in the end. Because right now that's

712
00:36:28,582 --> 00:36:30,701
Speaker 3: not where I am, or where so many people are.

713
00:36:31,661 --> 00:36:34,941
Speaker 3: I'm sitting in the silence, the emptiness, and I hate

714
00:36:34,982 --> 00:36:37,901
Speaker 3: it here. So I want to say it in case

715
00:36:37,942 --> 00:36:40,502
Speaker 3: you've ever been here, or you're here now, or you

716
00:36:40,582 --> 00:36:43,862
Speaker 3: find yourself here one day stunned by how much it hurts.

717
00:36:44,542 --> 00:36:48,341
Speaker 1: Sweetheart, I'm so sorry that that happened to you, and

718
00:36:48,382 --> 00:36:51,062
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you wrote that, because that's beautiful.

719
00:36:51,261 --> 00:36:54,181
Speaker 1: You've put words around something that so many women have

720
00:36:54,221 --> 00:36:56,261
Speaker 1: gone through, and so many women will go through, and

721
00:36:56,302 --> 00:37:00,501
Speaker 1: it's really hard thing to explain, even to partner, even

722
00:37:00,582 --> 00:37:04,862
Speaker 1: to your closest friends. It's very unique. It's a weird

723
00:37:05,062 --> 00:37:05,862
Speaker 1: type of grief.

724
00:37:06,102 --> 00:37:08,342
Speaker 3: I've spoken to so many women working in this office,

725
00:37:08,502 --> 00:37:11,821
Speaker 3: like who I've spoken about it, have been at work,

726
00:37:11,902 --> 00:37:14,941
Speaker 3: been in a meeting, gone to the bathroom, and this

727
00:37:16,062 --> 00:37:19,221
Speaker 3: kind of private tragedy has occurred, and I thought I

728
00:37:19,582 --> 00:37:24,022
Speaker 3: knew it was bad. I don't think I ever understood

729
00:37:24,862 --> 00:37:28,942
Speaker 3: the complicated and like embodied emotion of it. I was,

730
00:37:29,022 --> 00:37:31,502
Speaker 3: of course, you just frantically google and one of the

731
00:37:31,582 --> 00:37:34,821
Speaker 3: symptoms that you're losing a pregnancy is grief, like you

732
00:37:34,902 --> 00:37:37,742
Speaker 3: actually do. It's like your body, like your cells feel

733
00:37:38,582 --> 00:37:42,741
Speaker 3: like a changing. Oh, your hormones are changing and yeah, yeah,

734
00:37:42,781 --> 00:37:47,942
Speaker 3: and the palpable grief. I've never been so sure of anything.

735
00:37:47,942 --> 00:37:49,702
Speaker 3: And I think when you go with symptoms like obviously

736
00:37:49,701 --> 00:37:54,182
Speaker 3: bleeding is quite normal in early pregnancy, and so people

737
00:37:54,422 --> 00:37:57,062
Speaker 3: are reassuring or trying to be reassuring.

738
00:37:56,582 --> 00:37:58,301
Speaker 1: But it was you knew.

739
00:37:58,462 --> 00:38:01,301
Speaker 3: I just absolutely absolutely.

740
00:38:00,862 --> 00:38:03,622
Speaker 1: Knew, no matter how early it is. And like I

741
00:38:03,701 --> 00:38:06,022
Speaker 1: so many women get conscious of like throat clearing going

742
00:38:06,062 --> 00:38:07,942
Speaker 1: and it was early, and I just I can't imagine

743
00:38:07,942 --> 00:38:11,941
Speaker 1: what it's like. There's no there's no leaderboard of who

744
00:38:11,942 --> 00:38:14,542
Speaker 1: gets to be the most sad. It's a type of

745
00:38:14,622 --> 00:38:17,822
Speaker 1: grief that transcends how many weeks.

746
00:38:17,862 --> 00:38:23,022
Speaker 3: And I completely understand why people and I so appreciate

747
00:38:23,781 --> 00:38:26,542
Speaker 3: people before me having talked about it. And even as

748
00:38:26,542 --> 00:38:30,022
Speaker 3: it was happening, I kind of had a prism through

749
00:38:30,022 --> 00:38:32,261
Speaker 3: which to understand what was happening because I'd heard other

750
00:38:32,302 --> 00:38:35,382
Speaker 3: women talk about it, and I understand the vulnerability of

751
00:38:35,422 --> 00:38:37,502
Speaker 3: being in the moment. Even saying like I'm trying really

752
00:38:37,502 --> 00:38:38,862
Speaker 3: hard at this thing and it's not working.

753
00:38:39,221 --> 00:38:41,261
Speaker 1: Is like do you feel like a failure? Yeah?

754
00:38:41,422 --> 00:38:43,861
Speaker 3: Quite shameful, like that I.

755
00:38:43,822 --> 00:38:46,062
Speaker 1: Had one job, my body had one job. Yeah.

756
00:38:46,062 --> 00:38:49,022
Speaker 3: But then there's this awareness of like the privilege of

757
00:38:49,062 --> 00:38:54,622
Speaker 3: having fallen pregnant accidentally and having a healthy pregnancy and

758
00:38:54,661 --> 00:38:55,781
Speaker 3: a healthy baby.

759
00:38:55,542 --> 00:38:58,102
Speaker 2: But also knowing that when you talked about your boobs

760
00:38:58,102 --> 00:39:00,781
Speaker 2: and like you knew. Yeah, Like I think that would

761
00:39:00,982 --> 00:39:02,982
Speaker 2: just feel like your betrayal.

762
00:39:03,382 --> 00:39:06,422
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like an embodied Like it's such an embodied experience.

763
00:39:06,422 --> 00:39:09,502
Speaker 3: I suppose to be pregnant and you feel I've heard

764
00:39:09,542 --> 00:39:10,461
Speaker 3: women talk about body.

765
00:39:12,022 --> 00:39:14,422
Speaker 1: Yeah, embodied. It's so visceral, isn't it.

766
00:39:14,542 --> 00:39:17,022
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's why it feels like a loss only

767
00:39:17,102 --> 00:39:19,382
Speaker 3: you can see because no one else can feel it,

768
00:39:19,422 --> 00:39:22,542
Speaker 3: and your partner can be. So it's a grief for

769
00:39:22,542 --> 00:39:26,062
Speaker 3: the partner too, because you're so excited but they didn't

770
00:39:26,102 --> 00:39:26,542
Speaker 3: know them.

771
00:39:27,062 --> 00:39:30,221
Speaker 1: And it's also there's no proof that this person existed, Like, now,

772
00:39:30,221 --> 00:39:32,701
Speaker 1: how do I honor this person? There's no I haven't

773
00:39:32,741 --> 00:39:37,942
Speaker 1: even told people that I was pregnant, so how can I.

774
00:39:37,942 --> 00:39:42,062
Speaker 3: I kept taking pregnancy tests and there's the saddest image.

775
00:39:42,062 --> 00:39:43,942
Speaker 3: I said, I said to Luca, this is the saddest

776
00:39:43,942 --> 00:39:45,902
Speaker 3: image I've ever seen. But it's a pregnancy test. It

777
00:39:45,942 --> 00:39:48,542
Speaker 3: still so's positive, but on the urine stick there's blood

778
00:39:48,942 --> 00:39:51,142
Speaker 3: because I knew that it was and I just had

779
00:39:51,181 --> 00:39:53,741
Speaker 3: to keep checking and checking and checking, and then I

780
00:39:53,781 --> 00:39:55,502
Speaker 3: had to keep that because I was like, it's the

781
00:39:55,542 --> 00:39:59,582
Speaker 3: only evidence that this thing actually happened, because I feel

782
00:39:59,622 --> 00:40:03,462
Speaker 3: a bit insane right now, Like I feel as though, oh, okay,

783
00:40:03,502 --> 00:40:05,142
Speaker 3: I just had this health thing happened, and then I

784
00:40:05,181 --> 00:40:06,942
Speaker 3: go home and we get on with things.

785
00:40:07,142 --> 00:40:09,462
Speaker 1: And no one even knows this profound Like I saw

786
00:40:09,661 --> 00:40:11,821
Speaker 1: you last week and yeah, I didn't know, like this

787
00:40:11,942 --> 00:40:15,661
Speaker 1: profound thing was happening inside your body and women are

788
00:40:15,701 --> 00:40:19,982
Speaker 1: extraordinary carry with it and get on with it, because

789
00:40:19,982 --> 00:40:21,741
Speaker 1: what are the rituals as well? Like what are the

790
00:40:21,822 --> 00:40:23,221
Speaker 1: rituals for miscarriage? Yeah?

791
00:40:23,261 --> 00:40:25,422
Speaker 3: What are you meant to do? Other than go? And

792
00:40:25,462 --> 00:40:28,341
Speaker 3: I'm sure that they, you know, must get asked this

793
00:40:28,422 --> 00:40:30,462
Speaker 3: question all the time. But it's like, well, when can

794
00:40:30,502 --> 00:40:32,781
Speaker 3: I try again? Can I? Yeah? When's it going to happen?

795
00:40:32,822 --> 00:40:36,861
Speaker 3: Like they I've never felt impatience like this ever, Like

796
00:40:36,942 --> 00:40:42,901
Speaker 3: it's yeah, it's such a bizarre mix of emotions. And

797
00:40:42,942 --> 00:40:46,342
Speaker 3: I know that the stats that it's so so common,

798
00:40:46,342 --> 00:40:48,221
Speaker 3: and there is something comforting in that knowing that it's

799
00:40:48,221 --> 00:40:50,861
Speaker 3: not that you're defective. It's like it does happen a lot,

800
00:40:51,382 --> 00:40:56,982
Speaker 3: but yeah, something only only women can understand and out Louders.

801
00:40:56,982 --> 00:41:00,022
Speaker 3: If this brings things up for you, then there are

802
00:41:00,302 --> 00:41:03,341
Speaker 3: resources in the show notes. We're thinking of you because

803
00:41:03,382 --> 00:41:06,142
Speaker 3: we know how many of you will have been impacted by.

804
00:41:05,942 --> 00:41:07,821
Speaker 1: This sort of thing. So many outlouders we'll want to

805
00:41:07,822 --> 00:41:10,062
Speaker 1: reach out to you by DM are in the out

806
00:41:10,102 --> 00:41:12,462
Speaker 1: Louders group or comments or whatever, and so many people

807
00:41:12,502 --> 00:41:16,341
Speaker 1: will be moved and grateful and have big feelings. But

808
00:41:17,302 --> 00:41:19,661
Speaker 1: you'll read what you can. You but you know you

809
00:41:19,822 --> 00:41:22,982
Speaker 1: just need time to process it all. So in advance,

810
00:41:23,062 --> 00:41:26,142
Speaker 1: thanks out louders for on Jesse's behalf or your love

811
00:41:26,181 --> 00:41:30,582
Speaker 1: that we know that you'll have. After the break, We've

812
00:41:30,582 --> 00:41:34,262
Speaker 1: got some recommendations for you, including the show Everyone's Talking About,

813
00:41:34,302 --> 00:41:37,022
Speaker 1: a grouping World War two era novel, and a comedy

814
00:41:37,102 --> 00:41:41,221
Speaker 1: gem starring Idris Elba and John Cena. Oh you about that?

815
00:41:42,622 --> 00:41:45,181
Speaker 1: Do you want daily out loud access? Why wouldn't you?

816
00:41:45,302 --> 00:41:49,502
Speaker 1: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum

817
00:41:49,502 --> 00:41:51,781
Speaker 1: and me. A subscribers follow the link in the show

818
00:41:51,822 --> 00:41:54,182
Speaker 1: notes to get us in your ears five days a week,

819
00:41:54,542 --> 00:41:57,142
Speaker 1: and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.

820
00:42:03,661 --> 00:42:07,582
Speaker 2: Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

821
00:42:08,102 --> 00:42:12,341
Speaker 1: This is my best recommendation. It is Friday, so the

822
00:42:12,382 --> 00:42:14,661
Speaker 1: show's not over. We want to help set your weekend

823
00:42:14,942 --> 00:42:18,982
Speaker 1: up with some recommendations. And if you've got to spare

824
00:42:19,022 --> 00:42:22,062
Speaker 1: ten hours, you don't have to watch all ten hours

825
00:42:22,062 --> 00:42:26,021
Speaker 1: at once. I did so too much. We spoke about

826
00:42:26,062 --> 00:42:28,742
Speaker 1: it on Monday's show. Well, we spoke about Lina Dunham,

827
00:42:28,781 --> 00:42:32,942
Speaker 1: who is the writer, creator and director of this show.

828
00:42:33,462 --> 00:42:37,062
Speaker 1: It's on Netflix, and Netflix don't space things out, they

829
00:42:37,102 --> 00:42:40,741
Speaker 1: do let you binge. It's about ten hours worth. Yeah,

830
00:42:40,781 --> 00:42:41,861
Speaker 1: I would say a little London.

831
00:42:41,902 --> 00:42:46,221
Speaker 3: So I'm god actually about because I one hundred percent

832
00:42:46,261 --> 00:42:46,622
Speaker 3: going to watch.

833
00:42:46,661 --> 00:42:50,022
Speaker 1: It's her story. We're talking about memoir, but it's fictionalized memoir,

834
00:42:50,741 --> 00:42:54,781
Speaker 1: so similar to parts of your book about depression, it

835
00:42:54,822 --> 00:42:58,302
Speaker 1: can be a way for people to tell an aspect

836
00:42:58,342 --> 00:43:00,661
Speaker 1: of their story without having to be faithful to every

837
00:43:00,661 --> 00:43:04,422
Speaker 1: single detail, or like Strife with My story, where it

838
00:43:04,542 --> 00:43:07,382
Speaker 1: actually gives you a lot more creative license. But anyway,

839
00:43:07,422 --> 00:43:10,662
Speaker 1: so Lena Dunham, after the success of Girls and everything

840
00:43:10,701 --> 00:43:13,902
Speaker 1: that happened in America, as we spoke about on Monday

841
00:43:13,942 --> 00:43:15,782
Speaker 1: and go Back, We've had so many comments of people

842
00:43:15,862 --> 00:43:18,461
Speaker 1: just loving that episode. It was such a great week.

843
00:43:18,622 --> 00:43:20,341
Speaker 1: I'm glad you loved it because we love doing it.

844
00:43:20,342 --> 00:43:22,301
Speaker 1: It was like a big, chunky, deep dive into Lena

845
00:43:22,382 --> 00:43:26,381
Speaker 1: and the Girls phenomenon. But she ended up leaving America

846
00:43:26,462 --> 00:43:30,341
Speaker 1: and going to the UK to direct. She had a

847
00:43:30,342 --> 00:43:32,422
Speaker 1: couple of opportunities over there, and she decided that she

848
00:43:32,502 --> 00:43:33,941
Speaker 1: just needed to get away. She had a bad break

849
00:43:33,982 --> 00:43:37,421
Speaker 1: up after a long term relationship, and pretty early on

850
00:43:37,661 --> 00:43:39,982
Speaker 1: after she arrived in the UK, she met this musician

851
00:43:40,781 --> 00:43:43,981
Speaker 1: kind of unlikely match in a way, but they fell

852
00:43:44,022 --> 00:43:47,542
Speaker 1: in love and she and he got married. It's not

853
00:43:47,582 --> 00:43:50,022
Speaker 1: really a spoiler because this is well known. They got

854
00:43:50,022 --> 00:43:52,181
Speaker 1: married I think a year after meeting each other, maybe

855
00:43:52,261 --> 00:43:56,462
Speaker 1: seven months, And this just tells the story of you know,

856
00:43:56,502 --> 00:43:59,582
Speaker 1: this Lena type character played by Megan Stalter. You might

857
00:43:59,622 --> 00:44:02,982
Speaker 1: remember her from Hacks, and she's sort of like our

858
00:44:03,062 --> 00:44:07,022
Speaker 1: unlikely protagonist in that she doesn't look the way a

859
00:44:07,062 --> 00:44:12,302
Speaker 1: Hollywood protagonist looks into a twenty five or has really

860
00:44:12,382 --> 00:44:16,301
Speaker 1: ever looked outside of Lena Dunham production. And that's not

861
00:44:16,342 --> 00:44:20,982
Speaker 1: even the story that just you know is incidental, yeah, incidental, Jess.

862
00:44:21,022 --> 00:44:26,662
Speaker 2: Something has shifted with you, Josh Hi, how are you girl?

863
00:44:26,661 --> 00:44:30,862
Speaker 1: Are you good? You're unhappy living me. It's the worst

864
00:44:30,902 --> 00:44:36,062
Speaker 1: thing that everyone's ever done. Change your life. Go to London, seriously,

865
00:44:36,342 --> 00:44:37,262
Speaker 1: you love London.

866
00:44:37,781 --> 00:44:40,422
Speaker 2: You saw a Spice World nine times in the theater.

867
00:44:41,462 --> 00:44:43,701
Speaker 1: I could do it. I could go and find my

868
00:44:43,822 --> 00:44:47,941
Speaker 1: English dream. You know, a state ground starting gardens, good luck,

869
00:44:47,942 --> 00:44:58,142
Speaker 1: We don't love. I'm talking to a girlfriend about it

870
00:44:58,181 --> 00:45:00,542
Speaker 1: who said it certainly wouldn't pass the Is it called the.

871
00:45:00,542 --> 00:45:02,862
Speaker 3: Bechdel test, I'd say, bechetel.

872
00:45:04,661 --> 00:45:07,781
Speaker 1: H d e L. It's a test by a cartoonist

873
00:45:07,781 --> 00:45:11,181
Speaker 1: called Allison Bechell Look Bechdel. It looks at movies and

874
00:45:11,221 --> 00:45:14,741
Speaker 1: TV shows and basically says, if the women in every

875
00:45:14,982 --> 00:45:17,941
Speaker 1: sort of scene are talking about men more their relationships,

876
00:45:19,302 --> 00:45:22,422
Speaker 1: that just sort of signifies that it's not really about

877
00:45:22,701 --> 00:45:26,222
Speaker 1: female characters, and this would not pass that because it's

878
00:45:26,342 --> 00:45:28,742
Speaker 1: very much a rom com. It's about the love story.

879
00:45:28,942 --> 00:45:32,542
Speaker 1: And it also goes back and through a series of flashbacks,

880
00:45:32,741 --> 00:45:36,542
Speaker 1: looks at these two sort of flawed characters who interrogate

881
00:45:36,622 --> 00:45:39,022
Speaker 1: their past and how did they become sort of traumatized

882
00:45:39,022 --> 00:45:42,062
Speaker 1: in different ways. It's bloody funny. It's written in just

883
00:45:42,142 --> 00:45:44,542
Speaker 1: the most glorious way by Lena. It's got that great

884
00:45:45,181 --> 00:45:50,542
Speaker 1: dialogue that's clever, but not like punishingly clever, you know,

885
00:45:50,622 --> 00:45:52,781
Speaker 1: where it's just like, well, no one actually talks like that.

886
00:45:53,181 --> 00:45:54,062
Speaker 2: It's really funny.

887
00:45:54,102 --> 00:45:54,862
Speaker 3: What did you love about it?

888
00:45:54,982 --> 00:45:57,462
Speaker 2: I love Okay. Firstly, I loved Will Sharp, who plays

889
00:45:57,661 --> 00:46:00,821
Speaker 2: the romantic interest. He was in White Loadus season two. Yes,

890
00:46:01,261 --> 00:46:03,142
Speaker 2: so good looking, he's really really good.

891
00:46:03,142 --> 00:46:05,262
Speaker 1: He was married to Aubrey Plaza, Yes.

892
00:46:05,142 --> 00:46:07,582
Speaker 2: And White Loats. What I loved about The Human is

893
00:46:07,622 --> 00:46:09,542
Speaker 2: that it's very summer to Girls. It took me a while,

894
00:46:09,781 --> 00:46:12,542
Speaker 2: if you're a big Girls fan, to not see this

895
00:46:12,781 --> 00:46:14,422
Speaker 2: character as Hannah from Girls.

896
00:46:14,902 --> 00:46:15,182
Speaker 3: Okay.

897
00:46:15,342 --> 00:46:17,021
Speaker 2: I kept thinking they were meant to be the same

898
00:46:17,142 --> 00:46:20,102
Speaker 2: person and then not. It's like two completely different characters.

899
00:46:20,181 --> 00:46:23,062
Speaker 2: But it's like Lena Dunham's humor, which is very fast paced,

900
00:46:23,181 --> 00:46:25,901
Speaker 2: very funny, that you have to constantly play catch up

901
00:46:25,982 --> 00:46:27,582
Speaker 2: where you're like, oh my god, that was so funny,

902
00:46:27,582 --> 00:46:30,502
Speaker 2: And then I found myself rewinding things to like rehear them.

903
00:46:30,622 --> 00:46:32,701
Speaker 1: I wanted to go back and watch the whole season again,

904
00:46:32,741 --> 00:46:36,102
Speaker 1: which I never do. Some of the most glorious cameos

905
00:46:36,261 --> 00:46:39,781
Speaker 1: Naomi Watts. Yes, oh my god, she's In a few episodes,

906
00:46:40,142 --> 00:46:44,181
Speaker 1: she plays just the most phenomenal character. Jennifer Saunders makes

907
00:46:44,221 --> 00:46:47,862
Speaker 1: an appearance and Scott the hot priest from Fleabag.

908
00:46:47,942 --> 00:46:49,301
Speaker 2: Jessica alba Ura.

909
00:46:49,542 --> 00:46:54,502
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's amazing. Oh yeah, it made me like him. Rada,

910
00:46:54,781 --> 00:46:57,701
Speaker 1: I buried the lead. This actually made me like em.

911
00:46:57,822 --> 00:47:02,062
Speaker 1: Rada plays a knitting influencer model that her ex boyfriend

912
00:47:02,102 --> 00:47:05,221
Speaker 1: then gets together with, and she was really good.

913
00:47:05,582 --> 00:47:08,422
Speaker 3: She was to watch this. That's gonna be my weekend one.

914
00:47:08,422 --> 00:47:10,302
Speaker 1: I can't recommend it enough. The other show I watched,

915
00:47:10,462 --> 00:47:12,582
Speaker 1: which I know I'm not allowed to recommend, well, it's

916
00:47:12,622 --> 00:47:14,821
Speaker 1: against the rules because it's already been recommended. But I've

917
00:47:14,942 --> 00:47:16,622
Speaker 1: just discovered Drive to Survive.

918
00:47:16,701 --> 00:47:21,542
Speaker 3: Stop is ahead of us on this. She's the person

919
00:47:21,622 --> 00:47:22,181
Speaker 3: I can talk to.

920
00:47:22,382 --> 00:47:24,062
Speaker 1: Well. The good news about that is that if you

921
00:47:24,142 --> 00:47:26,062
Speaker 1: go back to the beginning like I did, I've just

922
00:47:26,181 --> 00:47:27,661
Speaker 1: got hours and hours an hour.

923
00:47:27,781 --> 00:47:30,222
Speaker 2: You're talking to people who don't even exist.

924
00:47:30,342 --> 00:47:32,862
Speaker 1: I know. I'm on out of season three. This is

925
00:47:32,902 --> 00:47:35,102
Speaker 1: the behind the sense of Formula one. It's become a

926
00:47:35,181 --> 00:47:39,261
Speaker 1: massive hit with women. Very clever marketing move by f one. Jesse,

927
00:47:39,502 --> 00:47:40,382
Speaker 1: what are you recommending?

928
00:47:40,582 --> 00:47:42,582
Speaker 3: I'm going to recommend a book. It is called The

929
00:47:42,701 --> 00:47:46,862
Speaker 3: Nightingale by Kristen Hannah. It is not brand new, but

930
00:47:47,502 --> 00:47:51,781
Speaker 3: I have been for the last few months struggling to

931
00:47:51,942 --> 00:47:55,102
Speaker 3: get through anything same. I am picking up books that

932
00:47:55,221 --> 00:47:58,301
Speaker 3: everyone says are amazing, like hits that everyone's talking about,

933
00:47:58,342 --> 00:47:59,902
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I can't finish this.

934
00:48:00,142 --> 00:48:02,181
Speaker 1: I've got a question, when do you make the call

935
00:48:02,701 --> 00:48:05,461
Speaker 1: to keep pushing through or not? Are you a pusher througher?

936
00:48:05,701 --> 00:48:07,982
Speaker 3: I'm a I'll read a chapter and go not for

937
00:48:08,102 --> 00:48:10,781
Speaker 3: me one chapter, Yeah, but the last few I've read,

938
00:48:10,781 --> 00:48:13,142
Speaker 3: I've gotten three quarters away through and I'm not actually

939
00:48:13,142 --> 00:48:13,701
Speaker 3: invested in how.

940
00:48:13,661 --> 00:48:14,062
Speaker 1: This finished it.

941
00:48:14,062 --> 00:48:15,542
Speaker 2: I'm gonna push it through it even if I hate it.

942
00:48:15,622 --> 00:48:16,342
Speaker 2: I have to finish it.

943
00:48:17,022 --> 00:48:19,821
Speaker 3: Chapter is sure Jesse, Wow, I can tell by the

944
00:48:19,902 --> 00:48:23,301
Speaker 3: writing and also like how much stock I've got the writer? Yeah,

945
00:48:23,382 --> 00:48:25,661
Speaker 3: but this a few friends said to me. This is

946
00:48:25,781 --> 00:48:27,701
Speaker 3: just super super readable, but also top of the New

947
00:48:27,781 --> 00:48:30,341
Speaker 3: York Times bestseller list. This author has written a few

948
00:48:30,422 --> 00:48:31,302
Speaker 3: really really good books.

949
00:48:31,342 --> 00:48:33,261
Speaker 1: I've heard about it. What's it about? Because I also

950
00:48:33,342 --> 00:48:35,142
Speaker 1: need a book that's going to push me out of

951
00:48:35,181 --> 00:48:35,902
Speaker 1: my rut, so.

952
00:48:36,342 --> 00:48:38,941
Speaker 3: This will one hundred percent do that. It is set

953
00:48:39,062 --> 00:48:42,261
Speaker 3: in World War two France, and it follows two sisters

954
00:48:42,422 --> 00:48:46,542
Speaker 3: and their resistance to the Nazis. That sounds like really heavy,

955
00:48:46,661 --> 00:48:49,502
Speaker 3: but it's not like I'm just really invested in the

956
00:48:49,661 --> 00:48:52,781
Speaker 3: day to day lives of these two women. And it's

957
00:48:52,862 --> 00:48:56,982
Speaker 3: not like hectic historical fiction where it feels dense like it.

958
00:48:57,422 --> 00:48:58,782
Speaker 3: It's very very readable.

959
00:48:58,862 --> 00:49:00,582
Speaker 1: How does it compare to The Safe Keep, because that

960
00:49:00,701 --> 00:49:03,022
Speaker 1: was the last historical fiction that you I couldn't get

961
00:49:03,022 --> 00:49:05,942
Speaker 1: through it. You couldn't get through every week raving about.

962
00:49:05,701 --> 00:49:08,221
Speaker 3: The Safety Oh I loved the Safe couldn't get through it.

963
00:49:08,342 --> 00:49:09,301
Speaker 1: So how does it compare to that?

964
00:49:09,542 --> 00:49:11,142
Speaker 3: I would say similar, And I would also put that

965
00:49:11,261 --> 00:49:13,542
Speaker 3: in the same realm as The Bronze Horseman, which is.

966
00:49:13,542 --> 00:49:15,341
Speaker 1: All I loved the Bronze Horsemen. Yeah.

967
00:49:15,582 --> 00:49:19,822
Speaker 3: So it's about female war heroes broadly and the stories

968
00:49:19,862 --> 00:49:23,702
Speaker 3: that we don't hear, and also how everyone's resistance looks different.

969
00:49:24,142 --> 00:49:27,862
Speaker 3: So these two sisters resist the Nazis in very specific

970
00:49:27,942 --> 00:49:30,902
Speaker 3: ways that might at point seem small, but are also

971
00:49:30,982 --> 00:49:33,542
Speaker 3: grounded in like historical accuracy, Like what one of the

972
00:49:33,622 --> 00:49:36,102
Speaker 3: sisters did is something that was done during the war

973
00:49:36,261 --> 00:49:38,862
Speaker 3: and made me think about how you know the marches

974
00:49:38,902 --> 00:49:41,422
Speaker 3: are for the men, the Anzac Day March, but broadly

975
00:49:41,542 --> 00:49:44,342
Speaker 3: it's been mostly for the men who come back. But

976
00:49:44,422 --> 00:49:47,341
Speaker 3: what happened in the four or five years when they

977
00:49:47,382 --> 00:49:49,462
Speaker 3: were gone? What did these women do and what did

978
00:49:49,502 --> 00:49:52,102
Speaker 3: they experience? And I didn't know that some of the

979
00:49:52,221 --> 00:49:54,741
Speaker 3: Nazis in this French town were billeted to homes. And

980
00:49:54,822 --> 00:49:57,542
Speaker 3: what that means is that, my god, I didn't know that. Yeah,

981
00:49:57,622 --> 00:50:00,741
Speaker 3: so you would be living in a house and a

982
00:50:00,822 --> 00:50:02,781
Speaker 3: Nazi would knock on the door and go, hey, I'm

983
00:50:02,781 --> 00:50:05,022
Speaker 3: gonna need that room and just live in your house.

984
00:50:05,462 --> 00:50:10,102
Speaker 3: You're a vulnerable woman, often with children like alone. And

985
00:50:10,221 --> 00:50:13,782
Speaker 3: also I always find really interesting the details about rations

986
00:50:13,822 --> 00:50:16,862
Speaker 3: and food and the cold and just the horrendous conditions

987
00:50:16,942 --> 00:50:19,502
Speaker 3: that people lived through. I was deeply, deeply moved by it.

988
00:50:19,822 --> 00:50:21,861
Speaker 3: So it's called The Nightingale. I'm going to go back

989
00:50:21,902 --> 00:50:24,262
Speaker 3: and read read her others, but it's brilliant.

990
00:50:24,741 --> 00:50:27,741
Speaker 2: Okay, I have a movie I want to recommend that

991
00:50:28,902 --> 00:50:31,062
Speaker 2: I feel like I'll have to really convince you guys

992
00:50:31,142 --> 00:50:33,062
Speaker 2: to watch. But if Holly was here, should be all around.

993
00:50:33,062 --> 00:50:34,742
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, she's probably already saying.

994
00:50:34,542 --> 00:50:37,341
Speaker 2: That it's called Heads of State, and it's on Prime

995
00:50:37,462 --> 00:50:41,701
Speaker 2: Video and it stars Idris Elba, John Cena, yeah, and

996
00:50:41,822 --> 00:50:44,301
Speaker 2: Preaka Chopra. But oh, I love all of them, all

997
00:50:44,382 --> 00:50:48,981
Speaker 2: of them. So John Cena plays a Hollywood A list

998
00:50:49,462 --> 00:50:51,821
Speaker 2: turned US President of the United States.

999
00:50:52,142 --> 00:50:54,301
Speaker 1: Oh sounds for me. I love him so much.

1000
00:50:54,342 --> 00:50:56,982
Speaker 2: He's funny, he's really funny. And Idris Elba plays like

1001
00:50:57,382 --> 00:51:02,301
Speaker 2: a really tough, quiet military guy who's now the Prime

1002
00:51:02,382 --> 00:51:03,221
Speaker 2: Minister of the UK.

1003
00:51:05,022 --> 00:51:07,102
Speaker 1: It's the Prime Minister, it's the president.

1004
00:51:07,781 --> 00:51:11,741
Speaker 2: Debute duet do it? Yeah, it's like doctor Dre and

1005
00:51:11,781 --> 00:51:13,502
Speaker 2: your Eminem and we're taking that stage for the first

1006
00:51:13,502 --> 00:51:13,941
Speaker 2: time again.

1007
00:51:15,022 --> 00:51:21,342
Speaker 1: I'm Eminem. What is it you're walking around thinking you

1008
00:51:21,422 --> 00:51:25,901
Speaker 1: better than nobody else? You are the commander in chief?

1009
00:51:25,902 --> 00:51:27,462
Speaker 2: You know some DJ in Vegas.

1010
00:51:29,422 --> 00:51:30,782
Speaker 1: All right, I get it. You don't like my movies.

1011
00:51:30,822 --> 00:51:33,861
Speaker 1: I've never seen your movies. But the universe keeps telling

1012
00:51:33,902 --> 00:51:35,221
Speaker 1: me I look cool with a gun in my head.

1013
00:51:38,661 --> 00:51:39,142
Speaker 1: That's how I go.

1014
00:51:39,622 --> 00:51:42,741
Speaker 2: They both also start in did you have watch Suicide Squad? No,

1015
00:51:44,342 --> 00:51:46,502
Speaker 2: it's not like a massive, massive movie, but it's like

1016
00:51:46,622 --> 00:51:50,102
Speaker 2: Suicide Squad is like the Nuggo Robbie in that yes, yeah, yeah,

1017
00:51:50,382 --> 00:51:53,022
Speaker 2: So they would start in that together. Everyone really liked

1018
00:51:53,062 --> 00:51:54,862
Speaker 2: them together, so now they're doing this movie together. And

1019
00:51:54,902 --> 00:51:57,981
Speaker 2: it's actually a buddy comedy, so it's like comedy action pace,

1020
00:51:58,382 --> 00:52:01,261
Speaker 2: but it's about these two massive political figures who are

1021
00:52:01,302 --> 00:52:04,461
Speaker 2: getting hunted by these assassins, and the assassins are trying

1022
00:52:04,542 --> 00:52:07,261
Speaker 2: to destroy all these peace treaties that around the world

1023
00:52:07,302 --> 00:52:09,182
Speaker 2: and they're just chasing them around the world. And Pianka

1024
00:52:09,221 --> 00:52:11,261
Speaker 2: Chopa plays a CIA agent who's the only one who

1025
00:52:11,261 --> 00:52:14,782
Speaker 2: actually knows what's going on. It is really really funny.

1026
00:52:15,342 --> 00:52:17,261
Speaker 2: Your boomer dad or your twein son will love it.

1027
00:52:17,822 --> 00:52:19,661
Speaker 2: There's a big family exactly.

1028
00:52:19,862 --> 00:52:21,662
Speaker 3: Catch my dad watching at one pm on a Saturday.

1029
00:52:21,701 --> 00:52:23,502
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, me and your dad.

1030
00:52:23,661 --> 00:52:26,662
Speaker 1: That's on. My criteria for that is no sex scenes.

1031
00:52:26,902 --> 00:52:27,822
Speaker 2: There's no sex scenes.

1032
00:52:28,261 --> 00:52:29,062
Speaker 1: Tick done.

1033
00:52:29,502 --> 00:52:31,821
Speaker 2: I think there might be one kissing scene. That's all right,

1034
00:52:32,102 --> 00:52:34,421
Speaker 2: that's fine, Okay. I'm also going to break the rules

1035
00:52:34,422 --> 00:52:36,901
Speaker 2: and do one more recommendation. And so you know how,

1036
00:52:36,982 --> 00:52:40,261
Speaker 2: I host The Spill, our daily entertainment podcast. Our little

1037
00:52:40,261 --> 00:52:43,062
Speaker 2: Spill family is growing. We have a new offering called

1038
00:52:43,302 --> 00:52:46,262
Speaker 2: Morning Tea. So you are now going to be getting

1039
00:52:46,622 --> 00:52:49,901
Speaker 2: two episodes of the Spill every day. So Morning Tea

1040
00:52:49,942 --> 00:52:52,262
Speaker 2: gets released at eight am. It's a five minute episode.

1041
00:52:52,302 --> 00:52:55,382
Speaker 2: It's hosted by Ash London, who's absolutely brilliant, and she

1042
00:52:55,542 --> 00:52:59,102
Speaker 2: gives you your entertainment, pop culture, celebrity news headlines of

1043
00:52:59,181 --> 00:52:59,502
Speaker 2: the day.

1044
00:52:59,701 --> 00:53:01,942
Speaker 1: I love this wiki.

1045
00:53:02,022 --> 00:53:04,701
Speaker 3: It's kind of like the quickie bit first entertainment.

1046
00:53:04,302 --> 00:53:08,062
Speaker 1: But for fluffy things. So I love this because it's

1047
00:53:08,102 --> 00:53:11,781
Speaker 1: interesting that research continues to show that women are increasingly

1048
00:53:12,181 --> 00:53:15,982
Speaker 1: experiencing news a version that they are wanting to turn

1049
00:53:16,022 --> 00:53:19,221
Speaker 1: away from the news. The quickie is a fantastic option

1050
00:53:19,382 --> 00:53:21,142
Speaker 1: for those people who want to get across the news

1051
00:53:21,181 --> 00:53:26,661
Speaker 1: in a non anxious, sensationalist way. But sometimes you just

1052
00:53:26,902 --> 00:53:28,902
Speaker 1: don't want that, or you want that and then you

1053
00:53:28,982 --> 00:53:31,901
Speaker 1: want you want to stuff. So this is always used

1054
00:53:31,902 --> 00:53:33,941
Speaker 1: to be my favorite part of the news or when

1055
00:53:34,102 --> 00:53:37,022
Speaker 1: in the old days of breakfast television, the bits that

1056
00:53:37,142 --> 00:53:39,902
Speaker 1: Richard Wilkins used to do, or whoever it was, and

1057
00:53:40,342 --> 00:53:42,301
Speaker 1: this is just all the celebrity news. So it's just

1058
00:53:42,382 --> 00:53:44,701
Speaker 1: like a catch up in the morning and then in

1059
00:53:44,741 --> 00:53:48,821
Speaker 1: the afternoon you and you're still a Rodney Spell episode. Yes,

1060
00:53:48,982 --> 00:53:52,062
Speaker 1: do a bit more of a deep dive on particular stories,

1061
00:53:52,302 --> 00:53:54,342
Speaker 1: but this just like covers you off with the headlines.

1062
00:53:54,342 --> 00:53:56,421
Speaker 2: It's all wonderful And this is all in the spill Feed,

1063
00:53:56,582 --> 00:53:59,782
Speaker 2: All in the spell Feed, host by Ashlandon, who's so brilliant.

1064
00:53:59,862 --> 00:54:02,382
Speaker 2: She knows so much about celebrity and pop culture.

1065
00:54:02,422 --> 00:54:04,622
Speaker 1: I love her. And the other bit of pod news

1066
00:54:04,701 --> 00:54:06,502
Speaker 1: we had for you is that I know a lot

1067
00:54:06,542 --> 00:54:11,222
Speaker 1: about ladders. Have really loved the six weeks of Parenting

1068
00:54:11,261 --> 00:54:13,702
Speaker 1: out Loud that we've done, Jesse you hosting with Emilia

1069
00:54:13,822 --> 00:54:18,741
Speaker 1: lest Andy Stacy Hicks. We sort of did that as

1070
00:54:18,781 --> 00:54:22,821
Speaker 1: a bit of an experiment and everyone has loved it. Yeah,

1071
00:54:23,261 --> 00:54:25,301
Speaker 1: I love it. It's one of my favorite shows because

1072
00:54:25,302 --> 00:54:26,861
Speaker 1: I'm not on it so I can just listen as

1073
00:54:26,902 --> 00:54:29,781
Speaker 1: a listener. We weren't expecting to carry this show on,

1074
00:54:30,022 --> 00:54:33,341
Speaker 1: so it's taking a little bit of parental leave while

1075
00:54:33,422 --> 00:54:36,661
Speaker 1: we think about what's going to happen next. But if

1076
00:54:36,741 --> 00:54:40,821
Speaker 1: you are interested in being the first to know when

1077
00:54:41,142 --> 00:54:44,102
Speaker 1: Parenting out Loud and if it comes back, we will

1078
00:54:44,142 --> 00:54:45,902
Speaker 1: put a link in the show notes so that you

1079
00:54:46,022 --> 00:54:48,701
Speaker 1: can follow along in that feed and maybe go and

1080
00:54:48,822 --> 00:54:52,422
Speaker 1: have a listen to the six episodes that we've already done. Congratulations.

1081
00:54:52,502 --> 00:54:55,382
Speaker 3: That was such It was so so much fun and

1082
00:54:55,502 --> 00:54:57,661
Speaker 3: it was a lot of parenting podcasts, you know.

1083
00:54:58,261 --> 00:54:58,501
Speaker 1: Yeah.

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00:54:59,181 --> 00:55:00,982
Speaker 3: I think that our resistance as well was like, we

1085
00:55:01,022 --> 00:55:02,422
Speaker 3: don't want to get on and just talk about our

1086
00:55:02,542 --> 00:55:02,942
Speaker 3: kids and.

1087
00:55:03,982 --> 00:55:08,062
Speaker 2: Chiefs first, sleeping, life, stage, lifestyle.

1088
00:55:08,261 --> 00:55:11,221
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's more the conversation that you have, all the

1089
00:55:11,302 --> 00:55:13,542
Speaker 3: things that you read or gravitate to. We wanted it

1090
00:55:13,622 --> 00:55:18,462
Speaker 3: to be thinkier, treat parents like adults instead of like, yeah.

1091
00:55:18,582 --> 00:55:22,461
Speaker 1: It's not actually about kids, it's about sort of heads out. Yeah,

1092
00:55:22,661 --> 00:55:24,862
Speaker 1: so it's kind of zeitguys, similar to out Loud, but

1093
00:55:24,982 --> 00:55:27,582
Speaker 1: through a parenting lens. It's just so great, and lots

1094
00:55:27,622 --> 00:55:29,701
Speaker 1: of people who aren't parents have said that they really

1095
00:55:29,741 --> 00:55:31,181
Speaker 1: really love it. Anyway, we'll put a link in the

1096
00:55:31,221 --> 00:55:33,462
Speaker 1: show notes if you want to follow that feed and

1097
00:55:33,582 --> 00:55:34,221
Speaker 1: catch up with it.

1098
00:55:34,701 --> 00:55:36,982
Speaker 3: That's all we have time for today. A big thank

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00:55:37,062 --> 00:55:39,142
Speaker 3: you to all of you the out louders for listening

1100
00:55:39,221 --> 00:55:41,902
Speaker 3: to today's show. We will be back in your ears

1101
00:55:42,022 --> 00:55:44,821
Speaker 3: on Monday, and we've got a little present for you

1102
00:55:45,102 --> 00:55:48,661
Speaker 3: because Hollywayne right been on her euro trip, which has

1103
00:55:48,701 --> 00:55:50,942
Speaker 3: been posting a lot about, which has been pissing me

1104
00:55:51,062 --> 00:55:53,261
Speaker 3: off because it looks very warm. Lots of app roles

1105
00:55:53,302 --> 00:55:55,982
Speaker 3: shall be back joining us behind the mic, so meet

1106
00:55:56,062 --> 00:55:56,742
Speaker 3: us there on Monday.

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00:55:57,181 --> 00:56:00,022
Speaker 1: Thank you to our team group executive producer Ruth Divine,

1108
00:56:00,102 --> 00:56:03,542
Speaker 1: our audio producer Leah Porges, video producer Josh Green, and

1109
00:56:03,622 --> 00:56:06,701
Speaker 1: our junior content producers co Co and Tessa. We will

1110
00:56:06,781 --> 00:56:08,582
Speaker 1: be back in your ears on Monday.

1111
00:56:08,781 --> 00:56:10,982
Speaker 3: And if you want something else to listen to, yesterday's

1112
00:56:11,022 --> 00:56:14,942
Speaker 3: subscriber episode, we tackled a bunch of very juicy dilemmas,

1113
00:56:15,422 --> 00:56:18,622
Speaker 3: from how to deal with a colleague's questionable cooking to

1114
00:56:18,741 --> 00:56:21,741
Speaker 3: a tricky parenting moral dilemma. A link will be in

1115
00:56:21,862 --> 00:56:22,462
Speaker 3: the show notes.

1116
00:56:22,862 --> 00:56:23,102
Speaker 1: Bye.

1117
00:56:23,982 --> 00:56:26,901
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mom and Mia subscribers listening. If

1118
00:56:26,942 --> 00:56:28,861
Speaker 3: you love the show and you want to support us,

1119
00:56:29,142 --> 00:56:31,861
Speaker 3: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

1120
00:56:31,982 --> 00:56:34,542
Speaker 3: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.